Andy Burnham and Future Leadership

Am I tough enough a strong and stable leadership? Total rubt. Hell yes, I'm tough enough. Shut Fidge. Not another one. It's the politics show cast When we talk about the people that Labour was formed to represent and has lost, those people who are doing the real work that really matters in the economy, the people that went out during COVID because their job couldn't be done at home, sending emails and doing PPoints. They are the working class people we are talking about who don't support us anymore. And actually we should be trying to win them back, peopleople say, Oh but they're gone. And he's like, but why are they gone They're gone because we left them. You know, we left them more than they left us. A lot of people in the party just don't want to talk about immigration. They genuinely don't think it's a priority to actually sort out the immigration issue. But it is for the country and it is for labour voters. That's where the parliamentary sovereignty stuff comes in, that belief that actually it should be the democratic Parliament, which is actually deciding these things, you know, we want the rule of law, not rule by lawyers Jonathan Fenda, MP for Pendal and Cliff. Welcome to Pitics Joe. Thanks for having me How have you been? How you been the last couple of days, a bit of psychorama in the Labour Party, the release of the second round of the Peter files. What's it been like in the comments? Yeah, So I don't really feel like we learn that much new from the files, but obviously it put in print or in digital print what people have known for a while and it's quite stark to see it actually in those kind of whatsApp conversations between ministers and cabinet members U So yeah, very uncomfortable. I think it is going to kind of make us ask more questions about what we want the Labour Party to be and I think that's a debate that we need to have. touch back on that in a moment. Yeah. You've been an MP for just under two years now up on that two year anniversary in July How has it been? Has it been what you expected? How have you found that kind of move from being in the police force to then being a lib party activist and then Be an MP, how have you found that for the last two years? I mean, it's It's an incredible privilege, first of all, you know, and sometimes when you're running around busy, you kind of forget to appreciate that, but it is an incredible privilege but it's obviously been quite a wild ride the last couple of years. I think it's fair to say that I probably didn't know Westminster as well as most of my peers I think you know, despite the fact that I had worked in London and the police, I'd not worked for an MP, I'd not really been involved in labour politics before leaving the police. I wasn't really allowed to other than be a kind of paper member, if you like So it's been a steep learning curve in terms of understanding Westminster, but also the Parliamentary Labour Party and so forth But obviously, you know, we can't get away from the fact that it hasn't gone as well as we would have liked for the government. So I think I thought that I might have a bit more time to settle in to really focus on getting to know the role. G Within six months, it felt like we'd been kind of hurled into this conversation about what the Labour Party' for, where we're going and so forth, which' obviously still happening now to some extent it's coming to ahead so I want to play a full part in that, but it has kind of felt like everything's been on fast forward. I'd kind of envisaged that I could spend a bit more time on policing as it happens, you know, my specialism being that and it being quite rare in the commons, I thought I would spend more time on that than I have and I'm still trying to do plenty on policing, but Also, you know, I've got a of a lot of views on what we should be doing and you know, that's ultimately why I left policing to become a politician So you were selected under the kind of Starmmerite Tanch of twenty twenty four, but I wouldn't say you're a kind of classic Starmerite, whatever that means. whatever that means. You're a subscriber to the view of Blue Labor Could you just explain to us what blue labor is, what it stands for, what it's all about? Sure. Yeah. so I'm a socialist I believe in pushing back against capitalism's kind of tendency to exploit the commodification of people by the kind of marketized culture And I believe in solidarity. So that comes through the trade unions and once upon a time it would have come from more community groups, which I think we've got fewer of these days and that kind of reciprocity U so we're very much of the kind of labour tradition, you know, and I mean that with a with a small el as well as a big el So if you think of figures like Clement Atley, like Ernest Bevin, we're very much of that tradition and we believe in democracy And in the national sense, that means parliamentary sovereignty. So we're very keen that Parliament kind of reclaims that ability to actually direct the country. And I suppose in a sort of more tangible way for some people who maybe want to hear a little bit more kind of easier to label descriptions. you know, we're very much on the left when it comes to the economy. but we haven't subscribed to the sort of hyperiberalism that you see in a lot of the Labour Party, but also in the kind of global left, particularly in the U.S you know, so we've drifted away from our working class base and Blue Labor is about actually representing those people, the people who, you know form constituencies like mine, of which there are hundreds across the country and making sure that we are what we think the Labour Party really should be, which is that working class socialist partarty It was founded by Marurice Glasman Yeah in the kind of early two thousand ten' obviously a member of the House of Lords a labourmber of the House of Lords. The last fifteen years have radically change Britain. Do you think blue labour is a kind of tradition as a kind of ideology has changed with it, orr do you think it's kind of remained in that kind of post new labor almost rebellion phase of well, we've had this for the last twenty years, we need to think What's new? Do You you think it has changed over the last fifteen years Well, what I would say is although it was a kind of reaction, if you like, to new laborour and where it had taken the Labour Party in the country. The values I think are Yeah eververlasting. They're not necessarily a moment in time, of course You have to apply to the circumstances that you're living through But the idea that what's important to people is generally their personal relationships, wanting to have meaningful work, you know, work that you actually enjoy and get a lot of satisfaction out of, which I think we sometimes miss in debates about you know the numbers on the graphs those kind of things are eternal as far as I'm concerned. So I guess where blue labor has kind of been seen has changed somewhat because of the way that politics has moved itself But I think in terms of those ideas that were set out by people like Morris, by people like Jonathan Rutherford, I don't think they have particularly changed that much This this a bl labour government Definitely not. And I think problem we've had is that while we've used you know, some elements of kind of blue labour thinking as a rhetorical device we haven't actually been Dellivering on it and it's been clumsy We've had a messenger in Kistama who Go doesn't really believe it. being totally honest And so what we've ended up doing is kind of hacking off Uh, you know, new progressive base, if you like by saying some things that they, you know are struggling to understand and often think are basically fake Um And we haven't succeeded in actually winning back the people we're trying to appeal to with that because they also see through it as somewhat in authentic U and we haven't actually delivered on, for instance, you know, in the illegal migration issue, which is, you know been such a salient issue for a number of years now. So it's nowhere near a blue labour government and you know, I think if we If we actually want to see a blue labour government, then we're going to have to change as a party much more radically. It's not just kind of a few words, a speech here or there. It's actually are we actually going to embody a kind of radical socialist party once again, which can represent those working class communities, we're quite a long way off that at the moment We were interviewing Neilalon Kan Jordan, one of your labour colleagues in the House of Commons yesterday about Socialism twenty six, a new program that he's b together. And he also believes the Labour Party needs to reevaluate where it is, where it's going. And they've kind of set out five things they want right now, five things by the end of Parliament, and five things for the next manifesto bllue labor version, I'll just ask you for one thing right now One thing by the end of Parliament, one thing for the manifesto that would make it, you know more blue labour Yeah, well, I think where I would put your spe? No, that's all right. I mean where I would draw a contrast with someone like Neil or someone from the Socialist campaign group is I feel like they often treating the symptoms of the kind of capitalist system that we're living in. And what we're talking about is having a completely different political economy, right? So we want kind of key Uh public sector industries to be in public control U you know, perhaps on a more municipal basis, regional basis and so forth and It's not about giving out more benefits and also you know, being so focused on Well, we're going to have this kind of top line wealth tax or whatever it is. It's actually about go further back and have an actual program for building a fairer economy And so in terms of, you know what we would do And, you know, I can't remember what the three what the three moments you want to do it now. then by the end of Parliament and then for the next manifesto, we' of three over the next five years Yeah. Well, I think in terms of what we could do on public ownership. you know, we're talking about the water industry here where it's got huge public support for it to be in public ownership. We've seen that it's completely failed. You know, it's failed on its own capatalyst terms. This is the thing about it is actually You know, you've had your chance thirty five years and all we've seen is the services get worse, the prices go up and the infrastructure get worse and actually shareholders walking away with the profits So let's actually show people Yes, okay, this is actually going to be quite a major change, but that's what people want to see. They want to see that radicalism So let's let's set out that kind of thing. But then I mean, what I would like to see as well is a little bit more of that workplace democracy. So we're talking about workers on board. So this is something which Blue Labouror talked about in the early days in particular And I would really love to see more of that and it comes along with having more vocational education So we've had this focus on universities And we have kind of actually in too many cases, and the left has fall into this as well, said, oh, well, we're going to press the button for those skills that we really need, which is marked low migration. And we're basically pillaging from abroad rather than actually training up our own workers So it's about kind of, yes, the top line things public ownership for those key sectors, but it's also about workplace democracy, actually thinking about what is the economy that we want You know, we actually have got ourselves into a really difficult situation as a country where a lot of our basic needs are not being in this country. And now that globalization, you know, people have realized is not as doable when you're not in such a benign international environment, you know there's a certain naivety and complacency We really need to think about, okay, what does this country need to produce? what services do we need to deliver ourselves? So that's where I would be looking for us to go. But I think sometimes in politics we're a little bit too quick to say, well, what about, you know two or three things straight away. and it's not to kind of reject the premise of your question, but I think it's a deeper thing than that. You know, it's a philosophy, it's about a kind of socialism that I think the Labour Party needs to return to Some of your blue Labour colleagues, both in Parliament and kind of outside that are activists have said Shibana Mamud is the kind of most senior member of Blue Labour. W you would you agree that she's Blue labor belieelver, subscriber I mean, she definitely is the most senior member of the government who openly says that she has a lot of sympathy with blue labour values I think, you know spepeaking to her myself, she really feels like and I can tell that she does understand the concerns of working class communities like those she represents in Birmingham, but also those that the Labour Party was formed to represent And she sees how If we're going to win people back and let's be honest, you know we're unfortunately not a working class party in the way that we were in terms of where our voter base is. Then we've got to tackle these knaotghtty issues like the immigration issue And So she's saying, well, yes, we actually want a fair migration system, but we need it to be controlled And that's what I'm going to do. and I'm not going to kind of let the legal entanglements get in the way. I'm going to be radical in doing it. So that's where the parliamentary sovereignty stuff comes in. know that belief that actually it should be the democratic parliament, which is actually deciding these things. know we want the rule of law, not rule by lawyers We had yesterday it was technically over the weekend, but over Sunday Monday it played out. Chenk Weyer and Hassan Pika, two quite famous American left wing commentators, onees a streamer, one's more of a journalist, had their electronic travel authorization, their visa revoked to speak at the South by Southwest London confference by the home office. Is that Around kind of issues of free speech, where do blue labour sit on that? Do they Do you agree that they should have had the ETAs revoked? Do you think their presence would have been conducive to the public good? So I mean, I'm very much in favor of free speech, and I'm in favor of free speech for my opponents. and that's the real test, isn't it? And I think too many people in this debate are for free speech for their side, but when it's the other side getting it socked to them, well, oh yeah, there you are I have to say, I don't really know these two people. I obviously don't spend enough time on the internet. Perhaps some of my staff can educate me about their kind of various sayings. But instinctively, I find it troubling. I say I don't know the ins and outs of those particular cases, but instinctively, I do find it troubling. The bar for those kind of things should be very, very high. I think too often the kind of cultural left, if you like, has been quite keen on that sort of word policing U and actually, I think, you know, we have got to have that open debate. within reasonable bounds Mr Speaker, I am a gouna. It's theitic show cast I wanted to pick up on something you said a couple of moments ago about we're not a party for the working class I'm a Labour party member, I'll that. sureure. We're not a party for the working class anymore. Mc Lynch was on a podcast Last week or the week before his definition of the working class, and that's anyone that relies on their labor to sustain their lifestyle, sustain their living We had Last Mackenzie on the podcast earlier this year who has a very different definition looking almost a cultural kind of post industrial working class definition. What do you see as the working class in this day and age? Yeah, I do think we probably spend a little bit too much time on this debate when most people instinctively know what it is. So you know if you have probablyably Not being to university, you go out to work good chance that you actually work with your hands, then I say that that's kind of squarely working class. Obviously, Mc Lynch has used the much broader definition there and that's understandable. But I think when we talk about the people that Labor was formed to represent and has lost, those people who are doing the real work that really matters in the economy, the people that went out during COVID because their job couldn't be done at home sending emails and doing powerPoints They are the working class people we are talking about who don't support us anymore because they don't think that we represent their values, even though, as I find on the doorsteps all the time in my constituency They actually have quite left wing economic values, but they just feel like the Labour partartyies drift to this liiberal partarty rather than a socialist partarty, means that they can't support us anymore. And there's a kind of sadness in their voice when they say it, which is, you know, I used to be labour but I could never vote labor anymore. And I think to myself, well, Yes, we need to make a huge pivot, but There are people out there who actually used to vote labor and actually we should be trying to win them back. and I feel like There's this debate going on where people say, o but they're gone. And it's like, but why are they gone? They're gone because we left them. You know, we left them more than they left us So yeah, I think Let's not get too tied up in the definitions I think there's a perfectly good argument to say that that's you perhaps too narrow a definition that I've just used. but I think everyone really knows what we're talking about here. And you know we should be for those people. not to labor the debate, because I accept your point about it.. We do spend too much time talking about it I suppose the other argument would be that the people that the Labour Party was founded to represent were working class, but the nature and the precarity of work has radically changed in those one hundred twenty six years, one hundred twenty seven this year since the party was founded in December eighteen ninety nine, so surely the working class has changed with it. You know deelioo drivers and baristas are, you know pllumbers for example, are some of the best paid people in the country now because it's a valuable trade because not many people have it.. I think people who might have you know gone to university, gone to a former polytechnic and are working as a barista for twelve pound thirty hour. would probably feel a lot more working class and a lot more exploited by the capitalist system than a plumber who earns sixty grand a year and controls their own hours Do you what I'm? I get what I mean. Yeah, I understand what you mean. And this is the thing it's not about saying we should be for these people and not for these people. You know we should be a broad based party for the whole country, all classes But I think the problem is the emphasis. You know, we've become this party which is more university towns, the big cities, the graduates and so forth. And that is the emphasis. So absolutely, I want to be for those people as well. You know, there's aack of nuance and debate. It's not about going after reform votes or going after green votes or whatever. You know, I totally understand why young left wing radical people would be saying, well, actually I'm not really sure labour's offer enough for me. You know as much as I understand my constituents and there are a lot more of them in my constituency who say Labour haven't got a grip of the immigration stuff, so I'm going to vote for reform. So you know I don't want to exclude people from our coalition. I want to broaden it out. That's the whole point On that point, there was some polling in the Sunday Times this Sunday just g about public sector trade union members and what their Westminster voting intentions are. it had reform and Labour tide at twenty eight. Most of the Labor Party was founded by trade unions. It was a motion in the railways Union at the time in eighteen ninety nine that was The founding of the party Do you think the wider labour movement needs to know kind of ind labor against reform, what do you see as the kind of political role of trade unions as, you know, the genereral election is three years away. What do you see their role is in kind of keeping that broad coalition, that kind of labour lower case L labour coalition together I think trade unions are absolutely fundamental to our movement and we absolutely must maintain that. You know As I say, my politics is about solidarity and that's what trade unions are all about. But I wasn't necessarily surprised to see that poll you know, I've got a Rolls Royce plant in my constituency, four hundred employees and I'm a regular visitor and you know I know how they're thinking about the Labour Party and other parties and so forth. So I really wasn't surprised to see that. I think the labor movement, the trade unions have to take their share of responsibility for that as well. You know, obbviously they're coming out on the back of it, criticizing the government. and I understand that But I think a lot of trade union members would perhaps see that they have been dragged in this kind of hyperliberal direction as well and have been less concerned about the bread and butter issues that they think a Socialist partarty should be. So absolutely, the trade union movement is fundamental to Labour Party and it always should be But I do think the Labour movement as a whole needs to actually kind of have that self awareness to think, okay, we all need to contribute to this. It's not just about this one leadership. And I would always say the drift away from the people that we're talking about here, it's not Kir Starmer's as such, know this is the end of a very long process, which has gone on since the eighties. And so it's not the fault of any one leader or any individual or anything like that But it is about acknowledging that it's happened and we need to pivot back towards them We've got Andy Burnham, who's contesting the Makefield by election of the Northwest New Yor C constituent. Yeah N York const Yeah. not far. in the Northwest. Yeah. And Have you been up yet? How you've ' it like up in Makerfield on the doors? because you know There's been a lot talk in the media that it is a reform labour race. and you know, Andy Burnham's the only labour candidate has a chance of winning. Is that's something you're feeling up there? So I haven't been yet. but I'm going to go over the next couple of weeks. But I think you know the fact that we are looking at a constituency like that being a really tight race, even with the most popular politician in the country is a sign that we are not speaking to enough of the population in terms of our priorities and the way we've conducted ourselves over the last couple of years. you know, I really, really obviously hope that we win that by election. I think Andy Burnham is someone who can speak to those different parts of the coalition that I'm talking about and bring it back together, absolutely. But at the same time, you know, if we win that by election fairly narrowly, You know, even then we should be thinking why why are we in this situation? Why don't these people, there are people Why don't they obviously want to vote labor or why we not winning these constituencies at a cana U which, you know, we have done in the past. So yeah, obviously we're throwing everything at it. I think we will win it, but I think there will still be serious lessons to be learned. And you know if he does come to Parliament, Andy Berham will be coming with those lessons from having spoken to so many voters in a constituency like that. I think Andy Berham would be a blue labor leader of the party, obbviously he's been on this kind of there's that old joke, isn't it? A Corbnite, a Blairite and a Brown Kight walk into a bar and the bamber says Hello Andy. you know, it he's gone from being a Blairite minister to kind of sitting in the kind of tribune of soft left area to this kind idea of Manchesterism of the Northwest. Do you think he would be a blue labour leader Honestly, I don't No. I don't know him well enough to say. You know, from what he said over the last couple of weeks, I think the signs are encouraging he is understanding the drift away from the Labour Party in areas like that and I think he has a good instinctive feel for that. I think he's got He's got better political antenna than most politicians in the country. So I always say blue Labour may be smaller within the Parliamentary partarty, but actually electral gravity has a way of re exerting itself. And I think the Labour Party is bound to move in that direction if we actually want to stay as a broad based party that has working class supporters both in the towns and the cities and across every nation of the UK. So let's see. I don't know U But, you know, there's signs of hope How much support you said that it's not massive in the Parliamentary Labour Party? How much support do you have? I know you founded it with two other MPs, Jonathan Brash up in Hartleverpool and Dan Carden up in Liverpool. How that kind of caught on as the kind of crisis within the Starmer leadership has been exasperated? So we've got a couple of dozen MPs who are sympathetic, but obviously there are people like me who are happy to talk about it very openly you know, for better or worse kind of end up labeled in that way. I know a lot of MPs are quite reluctant about that and I can you know understand that to some extent What do you think that is? Well, I think because there's certain people who Uh, kind of I guess skeptical of blue labor. We're obviously kind of saying a few home truths, which I don't think a lot of people want to hear. What would be an example of the home trruths Well, a lot of people in the party just don't want to talk about immigration. You know they genuinely don't think it's a priority to actually sort out the immigration issue but it is for the country and it is for labour voters. You know, this is the thing. It's not just chasing after other parties's voters. It's about normal labour voters in constituencies like mine like where you grew up in the East Midlands. theseese are just ordinary you know, people who would say, I just want you to sort this out And we obviously talk quite openly about that.' as much as anything, it's about the state actually showing itself to be competent. you know, that's one of the key things. That's why it's such a running sare is like, why can't you sort this out? And we say, oh, it's quite difficult because you know, we've got this intersection of all the different legal frameworks and so forth. And they go But isn't that why we elected you? because You're going to sort it out. You're the parliament which passes the laws. ye So I think talking about issues like that, in you know, such blunt terms, we're not ashamed to talk about it. is difficult for a lot of Labour MPs and you know, there's a very strong progressive activist base within the membership as well, which is critical of blue labour. But you know, I always say that there are a lot of labour MPs who have what I would describe as blue labour constituencies So actually, you know, we could really build a fantastic winning coalition if we took on these ideas in a labour government Iose reform UK aren't the only threat to the Labour Party. you've got the greens to the left. How do you think Bue Labour would deal with that kind of Palansky new green threat? Because you in Gordon and Denton, they won what would have been a historically labour seat, I would say almost a blue labour seat, know a very working class comm or Gordon and Denton's few places. Denton a bit more, but pretty working class Across London and across the south East, you've seen a real of move towards the Green Party. How you know Labour has always had a stronghold in London? How does the kind of blue labour tradition look leftwards Yeah. I mean, as I say, you know I describe myself as a socialist and labour very much sits within that socialist tradition. So I don't think there's any issue with this appealing to people who think that the economy is not working as fairly as it should, that we want workers to enjoy the fruits of their labour more than they do. the people again who do the real work, you know, they're not the speculators you know, rent extractors and so forth. Absolutely. you know, we want that real work to be rewarded. So I don't think there's any issue with blue labor appealing to those people at all And as I say, we haven't really been delivering in the last couple of years enough to show that we are actually driving for that f political economy to appeal to those kinds of voters. So I'm not that surprised that they're looking elsewhere. So I think it's probably a question of salience. People know blue labour perhaps more for those immigration type issues or pushing back against the identity politics. because those things have been quite salient in the public debate, but actually when you look at what our views are in the round, I don't think we'd have any issue appealing to people on that basis Wh says say we go the full three years, twenty twenty nine election, you've had a full five years theabour government What do you hope people look back on this term of the Labour government as and what do you want them to think, what do you want the legacy to be Well, I think, you know, I I am sympathetic to the governments situation when it T a coffes. We all knew that we were inheriting a situation where we had the public finances a really difficult state and also the public services is in a really poor state and the economy not in a great place. So I was very sympathetic I remain very sympathetic to that situation The key thing that we need to do is chart a course And I think that what we've seen over the last couple of years is that we haven't had a clear enough plan for where we are going and we haven't been able to articulate it. It's been piecemeal. you know, as Starmer said, Famously, you know, there's no such thing as starmarism and there never will be. But if you don't have a framework, if you don't have a vision then it's very difficult to start building your decisions around that because you are taking them one step at a time. And that's not a way to govern. you know, And you know, Tony Blair very much not my politics, but he's absolutely right to say that We need a coherent idea of where we're trying to take the country. So what I hope over the course of this summer And we've seen glimmers, like I say with that essay and the responses and so forth Whse response was your favourite? Which essay was your favourite? A battle of the essays if we were? Well, I mean, I don't know. I think I think they were all great. Blairres kicked it off and that was the one that everyone was responding to, right?. So I think it was important that we had that to kick us off because it takes us a little bit deeper into actually talking about, okay, what are we for? you know, we're just not we're not just repeating the cliches and so forth So yeah, that's what I want to see you kind of focus on over the course of this summer, which is really difficult to do when you're in government But we've got to do it. We've got to have that conversation and then as quickly as possible, you know, and as efficiently as possible, pivot towards towards doing that. And I think if people see that you have got a plan, and that you are willing to tell them some difficult things. You're not going to tell them that everyone's, you know gonna be really you know, avoiding any difficult choices or situations, but actually you're doing it for this or that reason then people will respect you. And the thing is, reform, they haven't they haven't got a lot. They've really just got the resentment over migration. So if we did sort that out, And then we've got the space to talk about some of the other good things we're doing when it comes to having our own industrial strategy. I want us to go a lot further, but we've got an industrial strategy. the first one that D country has had in a very long time. So we're actually doing those things on things like steel, for instance Actually we couldn't do if we were just accepting the free market, if you like, the so called free market And so theres there's lots of good that we have done, there's lots of good that we can do But I think we've got to be a bit clearer about, okay, where are we actually going? This is the vision and people will appreciate that Jonathan Hter, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for coming.