Defining the riots as pogroms

Am I tough enough a strong and stable leadership? Total rubber. Hell yes, I'm tough enough. Shut Frenge. Not another one. It's the politics show cast All right, Clire, let's start from the top. I know you've just done an urgent question and we are going to come back to that Let's us start with your constituents How are they feeling today P are people are terrified in terms of particularly minority ethnic or anybody who looks or sound Different are really anxious, but in general there's a wide anxiety about and a sort of an eeriness speaking to family and colleagues here in Belfast today where I'm not. Busles are off today, medical appointments have been cancellled. schoolchs are closing early. There was discussion about potentially postponing GCSE exams My own school and they're talking about school play not being able to go ahead tonight because of people's anxiety about moving around last night, the Royal Victorory Hospital, Belfast, North Ireland's biggest hospital had to issue guidance to expect mothers that if you need to come in in the course of your labour, you know make contact with us and we will bring you in in a taxi. Don't deprive yourself of medical attention. So People people people are worried, particularly those of minority backgrounds. and people are angry as well. I people are raging that this level of distortion is allowed to strike fear and is allowed to kind of shut the city down for a day It really feels like a lot of the sort of the fanning of the flames happened on social media rather than happening, say intrinsically within the community I mean, what effect do you think that you know sites like X and some of the most powerful men in the world or richest men in the world, like Elon Musk You know, what effect do you think they've had on that I meanute Yeah, an enormous effect. It is absolutely an accelerant. And look at all the positives we know about communication and democratization and all of that. But we also know that in terms of the algorithm, almost all roads lead to extreme content. I mean, you know that yourself, if you view a video what I know a over wider kind of social media access of engaging with young people You know, a few swipes away and you get into some pretty dark stuff. and that's certainly the case around issues of immigration and of race. So had a number of factors. One, you know, the kind of the usual suspects of sort of top line rifters, your Tommy Robinsons and all of that, people who couldn't find Belfast on a map, we don't know a single thing about you know what communities like North Belfast have been through amplified, obviously the horrific video we saw of the knife attack. and obviously was like profoundly shocking, extreme content. and anybody who watched that would feel revulsion would feel shock would feel fear Understandably many would feel anger, but amplifying that calling people out onto the street, you know, kind of creating this you know imperative, this narrative, that's the only way to make your voice heard. And as I say, circulating these kind of and I'll be honestly with kind of you know no designers that enlisted these protest sites veryer easy for some Armair Chair General to kind of design a list of protest sites, but as I say, those enormous accounts amplifying that pushing it out. I suppose making particularly young men who feel disconnected feeling like they're part of some sort of of a movement and I understand I wasn't not to look at them last night, but I understand throughout the course of the evening, sharing, celebrating, glorying in that sort of content. And there is, you know there's numerous dangers. One, just the kind of massive power without responsibility that these giants have that we know they have and doing it from very privileged positions. But yeah, it's an accelerant in terms of literally the way of communicating, but also the fact that it is deliberately darkening and radicalizing and amplifying partic particular viewpoints. So they absolutely have to be brought brought to heal and we've utterly failed. and it's a genuine existential threat to democracy and to communities like the one I represent Soee it's interesting what you just said there about sort of armchair. observers you know piecing together or allocating the riot sites because you know the attack happened in North Belfast, but most of the restst was in the east. So I mean What reasoning do you think there is? Do there's a specific reason why it happened in a totally different part of the city Yeah, so look, I'm not pretending to be any expert in this, but I suppose there's three factors. One, we've seen this movie before, right? We've seen sort of, you know a lot of the sort of, you know, scapegoating, amplifying blaming thing, but also you may be aware of the kind of what's known as a flags protest in twenty eleven in Northern Ireland where it started as kind purported and maybe there was some degree of organic anger and it's springing up in neighborhoods Particularly it has to be said and it is absolutely not the case that there's no racism in kind of perceived Cathic and nationalist communities because there is. But it has come from, I suppose there is an influence of some unionist politicians, certainly of loyalist paramilitaries. And it is also a factor that the neighborhoods that are maybe where more minority communities are living in our neighborhoods were as in any city where the rents are a wee bit lower, where there has been traditionally less economic opportunity. And if you overlay that, many of those are what would have been loyalist neighborhoods in Belfast. So that's a factor as well. But it is also the fact that there's presumably a strategic purpose to that It stretches the police resources. It creates that, as I say, kind of eerie sensation of everything kicking off. And you know, I know whatsApp groups I'm in, peopleeople were going, oh my goodness, this, you know, bus this glider' on fire in the Yards road and I'm seeing this in you know and I suppose pinging in different areas. So it creates that sense of chaos. But yeah, three pronged, that was a sort of a pattern developed from those flag protests. It probably you know it provides a local meeting point and as I say it stretches it stretches Police resources and public service resources, it's hard to know how to plan and respond. evenven last night. My colleagues, my assembly colleague Matthew Tool and our councillor Don Allions were supporting five or six families who they literally encountered, they'd been burned out of their apartments on Sandy Row, mininority band families from India in this case, as it happens But trying to get them trying to get a community center, even that is made more difficult because of roads that might be, you know affected. and I suppose it suits those that are trying to create chaos to do it that way. It's interesting what you said there, you're suggesting that actually this you know the riots or the tension is being drawn on sectarian lines. And I suppose that leads me onto my next question because you have heard a lot a few politicians overnight in this morning calling for a hard border on the island I mean What are your objections to that? And do you see that as sort of is that factional But Yeah, and I just want to say because I'm neither playing up nor playing it down, I'm trying to play a straight path in terms of you know the sectarian geography of our city and as suppose some of the historical patterns because there'll be those who say, o she's blaming it all on. But there are structural, structural issues there, including you know an not universal lack of leadership in unenist communities, including it's very clear the politicians who were on their feet instment and elsewhere, yesterday I makeaking inflammatory videos about all of this. And as I say, there are issues like loyalist paramilitaries. There's areas in my constituency that have an organized anti migrant sentiments, big printed banners hung up, all of that. That's not individuals. that's on an organized level and it's paramilitaries But the hard the hard border, I mean, all roads lead to, you know, the policy solution being a hardened border on the island of Ireland. Look, you know, we do, the common travel area has existed for, you know Dadeades way over a century, it predates the Good Friday Areement, It predates partition, in fact. But it is the logic of the island. We know all this from Brexit. You can't police five hundred kilometers of land border, and it also would be completely untenable and unreasonable because that's not what the majority of people want There have been over the last kind of you, five, ten years, certainly that I've been in elected politics. There have been different periods of flow north, south, politicians in the south who have said, o, asylum seekers are coming from theorth to the south and vice versa. And I think there's probably I think that's the case. you know I think those patterns do change, but yes, that is currently the kind of obsession of some of those. And clearly there are some movements. We don't have data to the extent of how significant this is. And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be data sharing, of course, of course, there should be, but it is opportunistic by those who are amplifying it in reform on parts of the British right and unfortunately political unionism, like a moth to a flame, will go after where English nationalism is going. And I don't think it'll take them anywhere very good because a little bit like Brexit, even if you decide that this is the biggest problem in the world and you must do things to address it, it is impossible, as I say, know people People Tens of thousands of people cross the border every day on their legitimate business, people from our place, people from all around the world tourist workers, whatever. So you can't you can't make that a hard border. If you are so determined that all of these people need to be monitored, the only logic is to the Irishy. and that's what happened with Brexit. I tried to warn a lot of those people years ago way before the Brexit referendum said, This can only go one direction. You know, don't follow this this this this this idea because it doesn't it doesn't end well. So as I say, yeah, I think it it's opportunism, it's distraction, it's a way to keep immigration in the media and talk less about You know, Fash is five million crypto donations or whatever. And it is also, I suppose, a a way to for some potentially hard harden the Irish border. It also, as I say, this is a conversation for another day, but for those whose political project is maintenance of the Union, and it's certainly not my political project think you want to amplify to all the English nationalists if you think you know Northern Ireland is a back door for nefarious purposes? because I don't think they're going to stand by you if it comes to it, you know And I can't imagine a reform led or reform infused government in the future. and I hope that doesn't happen, but it is a real possibility. I can't imagine it's spending the time and the value to carefully manage these issues Nigel Farage does seem to have a bit of an obsession with creating that hard border. I suppose if he couldn't achieve it with Brexit, perhaps he could achieve it by whipping up this upset with immigration. Nigel Farage's most high profile contribution in Northern Ireland is doing an up the raA video on Co for seventy two Quid. So that's what Nigel Farage you know has most recently said about our region. and I think everybody should know that he has zero interest. and as I say, he will take I have no great gras or love for the Brexiters, but there were those who honorably did try to manage the to manage the issues relating to the geography and the politics and the economy of our island and for us should certainly not be one of them. And you can see if this place gets too complicated for them He'll drop it. We know that. we know that and hardline unionism should understand that too Do you think that there's a place for English voices in these riots or in this uproar, you think that perhaps it's the time for English voices to take a step back Well just want to understand your question. Do you mean English voices asking about it or seeking to engage or do you mean engage? So the sort of like, you know, we've had videos made by various politicians at the UK Parliament. mean excluding Northern Irish MPs, but looking specifically at the reform MPs who have been tweeting repeatedly about this, you have just spoken in the House of Commons. Do you think it's right that they are engaging at the level that they are Well on a general level, I know endorse people's rights to take an interest in other areas and I know MPs who've expressed solidarity in the chamber and in conversations to me from England, Scotland and Wales who are horrified by what they're saying and people are entitled to do that. But I don't think those voices and some of those that address this in the chamber today. I don't think they're coming from a place of concern or interest in the region, as I say. A lot of the time we'll have them in when it comes to Trouble's legacy to make outrageous and offensive comments about victims and make just really stupid and comments portraying complete lack of understanding. We had it all through the Brexit years Which just laid out the power imbalances in the UK. and I think you know opened a lot of people's eyes to the fact that no matter what Northern Ireland wants their needs or votes for you know the kind of rt of Southeastern England will run. So I don't dismiss anybody's right to make a comment on a political issue. but I don't think no, I don't think it's hell. I't think I don't think people who who just grift and rabble rouse and who never come forward with a solutions to never come forward with any positive answers or opportunities for the region. You know, it's interests we't need. thanks I M pololitics J cast. Talk to me about the urgent question. R sor, I I mean, obviously and to it's a mechanism whereb, I suppose, on a topical issue, you can ask for it to be addressed in the House. I'll caveat it by saying, you know, I'm not an MP who spends my whole life in this building. I unassamedly I'm here probably as little as I need to be. it's important to kind of you know, wherever our interests are being addressed that I will be. But I think it was important to air that issue and I wanted And to make some of those points for the record. So you can table a question. the speaker granted it today, it allowed me to reflect some of the experiences of my constituents in the last two days, some of the communication that I was getting from as sameophone, as you can imagine, has been going off from people whose services have been disrupted, people who are supporting people affected by that. and I want that an opportunity to flag that. It obviously is open to anybody who wishes to bob in the chamber and express their views and some of them constructive, some of them I thought well put and others not so And I to think where I want to go now Let me ask you about The use of the term pogram, that's how you describe the events. Yeah. What did you mean by that I mean, gosh, I mean, that's what it felt like to. And you know, I've used that word before. I used it this exact week last year when I went to Balaminia, where you will know there was another a sort of a trigger event an alleged sexual assault of a young woman by three boys from another and there was riots kicked off there. and again, we saw the videos and then I wasn't there the day of the ris. I don't represent that. I went up the next day and I saw The most disturbing, I've lived more or less all my life in Belfast, I saw the most disturbing thing I've ever seen, even in our very troubled place, which was three or four streets of terraced houses with stuff in the window saying, locals live here or like red, white and blue bumping. anything that people could put in their window to basically say,t don't kick my door in and don't burn me out or whatever was their fear, but we saw video after video of people going door to door and get the immigrants out, get the ethnics out, you know, kind of looking in this there's one of them lives here kicking in the door, putting people out entirely based on where they're from, what they look like. And by the way, you know, somebody who's lived their whole life in Belfast but happens to have a different colored skin is subject to exactly this abuse as well. Wh not why not pretend I don't see what other way I can describe that other than a pogram, you going door to door, targeting people on the basis of their ethnicity very explicitly. And we hear all of these conditionalities about I don't mind these migrants and I don't mind the ones that work here or whatever. But let me tell you, you know, and it was clear from those videos, people aren't checking people's immigration status. They aren't asking what contribution they're making to this society. They aren't asking how long they've been here and what basis. they are targeting people on the basis of how they look and so on. I don't if somebody can tell me why that isn't a poggrm, then I'm open to it. But it is important that I communicate the race dimension of this because I think it is really important, obviously know that it is a place that's known for violence, street violence, disorder, organized violence It is also, obviously people are telling us that this is, you know like everything. this is the conversation about immigration. but it's really important that I express this is very much a conversation about race and racism and racial targeting that is happening because you know we're not having last night wasn't and Balamina wasn't a conversation or a debate about racism. It wasn't you know a set of proposals or counterpposals or critiques of a policy. You know peopleople are being targeted on the basis of race and pogrram It is a word that obviously has resonance around the world. It has resonance in Northern Ireland as well. I didn't I didn't use that word to be provocative. It was a word that just that's what it felt when I saw what I saw in Balamina last year. And it's what I felt when I saw what was happening in Belfast yesterday. And I think it's important that we don't You know, I don't I try not to use inflammatory language, but that we accurately express what is happening for those for those for those communities and that we don't let all of this be washed away. As I say, it's not just about it's not just about immigration. it is about race and people people whoever they were They came to our place however long they've been here or being targeted on the basis of their ethnicity Do you think that inflammatory language though? do you think it's in response to a lot of the inflammatory language that is used by as you describe them, these sort of armchair social media commentators? L we're certainly in a time where those who can shout the loudest, those who can amplify their posts on social media the boldest, they're the ones who get the airtime And it does seem that the more inflammatory you are, the more likely it is that your post is to circulate, which is the aim, I would argue for most of these posters So I wonder just as a final question or a final thought Do you think it's time for the government to look more carefully at the social media that we are consuming, what is being posted? I mean, do you think there is enough inspection the of algorithms of how information is amplified. No I mean clearly there isn't And as I say, I'm not I'm not an expert in this. I do know that if I post a clip from You know, maybe an engagement about cancer services in Westminster Hall or something like that. It's going to die. If I post a ding Dong with another politician or whatever, it's going you know it's going to perform in a different way. And some politicians are both driven by that and probably posting their content based on or saying things based on how it's going to go on on social media and we have we have no transparency on that, as I say. And it's not it's not just We know it's not just sort of a free market. Oh, well, this seems popular. so let's promote this. We know that it's darker than that, as I say. know I don't really use X anymore. I use it obviously for work sometimes, but I know just in the last few days, when I'm looking at stuff I've been sendingings When you look at the video, the first wipe is something bonkers, you know, it just you're straight, you're straight in. Maybe if you're looking at a picture of a fluffy kitten the next one will be a fluffy kitten, but' I'm just saying dark stuff. Ill go back and I want to be clear, but I don't I genuinely and not I'm not trying to pretend I'm holier than that. I don't try to use inflammatory language. I use the word pogrum Because that's what it felt like to me. and that yes, about what had happened in Belfast at the beginning of the troubles, but just I just don't know another way to say. And yes, I used it again last night because it looked like that again and because I need other people listening who think of Northern Ireland as other and weird and just prone to violence. I needed them to know There was a targeted dimension, a racial dimension to this. But yeah, course of course we need regulation of this, of course we need transparency. And I think that's I mean I' say story for another day, but I think that is why some of these musks and all are so fundamentally and the you know boring parliamentary stuff, the EU, for example, because that's the only kind of big beast that's ever going to have the real capacity to grapple and regulate. But it just has so much control over every area of our lives. We know like we're all hooked on this stuff. know we know how much it is designed to capture our attention, but it's not capturing our attention to improve our lives or to build community or to make us being good. It's captured, you know, I think as many as many politicians seem to believe you know that anger and hate are stickier than hope and positivity and things that probably send you out into the world and not deeper into your deeper into your screen. So of course we have to get to grips, but I don't know have all the answers on that. but I do know that kind of Lis fair leave them to it is having terrifying consequences for for all of us. got I've got, you know, teenagers. I'm worried about what I see, what of my constituency, but I'm worried about my own kids, you know, what what potentially and I get a sense from them. I try to understand what they're looking at and how quickly it goes dark. And of course, we can see the corrosive impact that's having on politics