The broader failure of justice systems

Am I tough enough a strong and stable leadership? Total rubor. Hell yes, I'm tough enough. Shut French. Not another one. It's the politics show cast Snough podate nonsces N not sweaty ones, like we said yesterday I'm dreading this. I really don't I've been in two minds for a week about whether we even address it or talk about it. I've not followed any of the outrage or anything online or are it going viral because I just don't whenever I go viral I never look. I think you're better off especially when it's Pierce Morgan. I don't really see the point in looking It's been more than a week. I think it's been more than a week. Yeah was it was last Monday it was yeah And I wanted to address a view partarts of it because I think I think it's good to hear both perspectives. and the guest in question, I have been told has done like a sort of circuit of quite a lot of media off the back of it. I frustratingly doing what she did during that interview, which is why I walked out and I willll explain further as we go along, sort of peddaling the same It was like we were having two different conversations, essentially. Like I was saying the sky is blue and she was saying, well, actually the river is green. Yeah. You know, it was totally two different conversations. and that has apparently continued for the last week or so Sh we put the clip in here Let's roll it. Children have been raped and rather than people just philing about I don on thestand that these children have been raped It's all about about racism. Look at all of this. U think the example that white men rape in this country is like saying, Oh my gosh, Nigerians are raping so much in Nigerians. White men are the majority in this country, so yes, they are going to make up the statistics of men raping. And when we're talking about roming gangs, yes, it is We're not saying men. We're not saying as' all men. What I'm trying to say is if someone raped your daughter, you would not like someone to come to you talking about ethnicity, racism, Islamophobia. You he He is literally just different a statistic making thatre that exact point. At the end of the dayer is responding a statistic. changing what I'm trying to say is as a woman, have some compassion in it you're not goingone dominating thearrative here in I' saying that young women are being aed they ask And your first not No what you're saying I'm disusting. I'm sorry demonic It's so demonic. What is demonic? What are you talking about? It's demonic It' just triing someone to leave the studio. I have a no stupid people rule on panel members for this show. And sometimes we drop below it The way you started this panel and the way you've ended it suggests that you shouldn't have passed our bar because frankly, you've been not only stupid and ill informed. Well you could and told a bunch of lies. then right at the end, you've driven one of our regular panel members went out by to leave because you told disgusting lies by herself about for her. You made disgusting suggestions about what she did or did'tra She lied. I was just questioning where was her symptoms? To be clear Don Keith made a statement involving a statistic Theyer checked it The two hundred fifty thousand stat is widely circulated, but unsubstantiated, as she explained. The government grooming gangs task force credited in twenty twenty three helped police to identify more than four thousand victims. Let me say what I believe about that. It was disgusting. that was going on for so long without proper accountability. It was disgusting that there was a cover up at all levels of government in this country to not bring the perpetrators to book. Yes, it is true that in that particular grooming gang rape gang scandal it involved predominantly British Pakistani Muslim men. all of those things are inarguable, but it's also true that the vast majority of sexual crime in this country is perpetrated by white men R this ide this moral this idea that only perpetrated this idea that only perpetrated Mlim by Muslim ges is Muslim. The idea that people like me Muslim. The idea that people like me or Ava Santina have no compassion for the victims when all we have done for the last few years is expressed loudly and repeatedly our compassion for the victims and our outrage about the scandal is frankly ignorant, stupid and disgustingly offensive. and I don't blame Ava for leaving. And you, I'm afraid, if you ever come back here, which I think is unlikely, Sintish, you should be better informed and when you're on a panel, you should listen to what people are actually saying before you smear them in the way that you smear them. So what frustrates me about this clip is that pretty crucial aspect of like you know, the reason why I walked out is not included in the clip so it's It willfully misleads the viewer into thinking that I simply can't handle a debate. Actually I just couldn't handle. the ridiculousness of what was being said. So just before that We had been there were two American guests that were down the line One of them you love, one of the young tur Cener And u They had been talking about what it wasn't him, it was the other guy had given this stat about the sort of hundreds of thousands of Muslim men that had apparently raped women over the last, I think five years. And it was a question that was actually raised in the House of Lords byord. I'd done the quick research on it as I was instructed to do so while they were having their exchange, you research this and correct the record if it's not right and What I explained was that figure did not get a response from ministers because he'd said, Well, the government are trying to cover it up because they won't answer, they won't address this And I said, well, the reason that they can't attest to that figure is that ethnicity is not recorded of you know the vast majority of rape perpetrators in this country, and that was something that was raised in the J report after that horrific grooming gang scandal was first unearthed and there was anquiry original inquiry into what had gone on There's nothing untoward to anything you've done up until this point. Like think this is just bog standard television stuff. Yeah I'm gonna making an accusation You out of the four people there are probably the best suited to validate it or to quash it and knowing how this works. In the sense that there are two Americans and then there's a Americator and a commentator, whereereas you were a fully fledged journalist. Not in their eyes, but well. Apparently journalists are subjective. I mean Yeah It what It could be anything, Yeahah. Yeah Um, the point being You know, and I wasn't pro that, you know, I said that that was actually one of the main grievances that arose after that was that ethnicity is not recorded. And yeah, there've been a lot of we did not get into the nuances of that It's actually a right wing talking point as well that this is not recorded off the back of that. The guest launched into What I found just I found it really upsetting, which was Why don't you care about rape Why are you saying that it's about ethnicity? And I was like you're answering a question that was not posed by me because I firstly It's just it's just so below the belt and it's not It is simply unintelligent to turn aroundound to someone sitting on a panel with you and say, you do not care about rape. We've never met before this. You don't know what my personal experiences are in life. You don't know who I surround myself with or what situations I have been in. too land that sort of accusation on someone is it felt really awful. It ft so gross to the viewer, it just seems like it's out of nowhere. you know, you've just Peers has come to you you've given a clarification of something another panelist has said And rather than engaging with that, you barely you barely even finish your point before she says you wouldn't care if someone raped your daughter. It was disgusting It's to your point earlier on of like, well the the river's green, well, the sky is actually orange. it seemed like To me watching it, it looked like and awareness was hitting her thast There was not long left in the show. and she needed to I guess it was her first time on the show. She needed to do something salacious. She'd arrived an hour late Okay, to the interview she couldn't park her car. So there was some frustration, which I think I was told actually because someone gave me a play by play about other bits she'd done sububsequently, she was complaining that Pierers Morgan had been really rude to her I actually don't think he was rude to her, especially in light of the fact that she had arrived an hour late and you know you've got two American guests waiting down the line, you've got two people waiting in a studio for you. you know, and you've got an entire production and gallery team. And first appearanceust rude to turn up late, you know, that like point of principle, whether you like the show, whether you hate the show, it's rude to waste everyone's time like that But if you want to like the veil a little bit. like if you want to be called back on that show The last thing you do is show up an hour late for it Yeah You want to make a good impression of yourself the first time you're on. But barely apologized was just like was like, o, yeah My bad which, you know, doesn't set you off on a on a good foot. So so the only reason I'm bringing that up is specifically because she'd said that Peers was rude to her And it seems that It's more than accommodate and to have waited for an hour rather than just get home without ye Yeah Um and you know, this You know, you've got that young Turks guy who's about to, you know, they're starting their day in the states and they're about to go into a long day of recording. He's pushing back things to wait for this woman to arrive. You know, it was rude. And On the more serious point, the point about ethnicity not being recorded is integral to understanding the grooming gang scandal it's integral to understanding the sort of what had happened over in Rochdale and throughout Greater Manchester It's key to a lot of the findings sorry, I'm just pulling out a bit of Cesar salad that's in my. Sorry. Yeah, sorry about that. friend just had like a Caesar salad there. But it's crucial and integral to understanding it. And you know, we've done podcasts before where we've talked about subsequent responses to the groom and gang scandal and you can go and watch them if you'd like because it's It would simply take too much time here to go through them all. but we have said to that effect that and Clearly, this is an integral cornerstone issue of what what was allowed to happen and permeate in those areas And that failing also kind of contributes to conspiracy and misinformation around it in the first place.. Absolutely it does. absolutely it does. And which is a point that we have addressed. you know Not that I need to address it because I wasn't actually involved in the grooming gang scandal, just to be completely clear. but from the coverage that I've had over the past week, you'd think I was one of the perpetrators. I mean, it really has been appalling the way that I've been spoken to. and But it's a very serious point and actually it would have been you know, I was expecting to have engagement off the back of that Let's talk about that Let's talk about that point I've just raised. Let's not launch into Can you imagine what it's like to have your child raped? No, I can't imagine what it's like to have my child raped raped. That's a really heinous thing for you to wish ono someone diminishes the argument There is no conversation here. There is no debate And again, as I've said, you don't know what personal experiences I've had in my life. And I just thought this is a waste of my time because We were having two different conversations, and I just thought to myself, I'm not interested I'm just going to leave. because it did It seem that there were attempts the whole way through the conversation to make it I a well thought out considered base. it kept on being pulled back by I wonder if there was an aspect that because it wasn't just her in the studio was also the American contributor that was for want of a better phrase, a Tommy Robinson super fan where he was to speak at the March and he had his visa denied. Sure. Interestingly, touched upon that at the beginning the of the recording. And again, my principles on most things actually stand true. They're pretty concrete throughout. I don't think that you should ban people from traveling into a country because you don't agree with their views. I think that's a very dangerous precedent to set because legislation exists in whole in it exists in perpetuity. You can't You can't differentiate between we didn't like that because it could potentially lead to a public order offense. Well, how do you know that someone who's got say, dont know, a left wing ideal doesn't turn into a potential for a public order offense? end of the day. That's the whole argument around Palestine action last year. Do you know what I mean? That like it sets a precedent for this kind of crackdown later on Boss No, the I think there was one point where you're talking Iually do you want to just Don, here's my point. He never gets challenged directly about all the lies he tells in silence. The reason he got in prison because of the breach of contempt of court law here, which was if you repeat the lies for which you've just lost a libel action and paay damages to this family, if you do that again, you will go back to prison. That is what he did. nothing to do was the lie? Okay, far as silence. I know that you love to get on here and tell that Tommy Robinson told lies about silence. That's not the case. They did. But everything told in court wrote sid perspective No, no, no, no, Oh yeah, onene judge overrode five witnesses. he Now what you're doing? You're now repeating twve you're now repeating defend. I'm repeating not the witness. I would be careful. I' repeating I would be careful. I'm repeating what the witness. You are repeating No I've read every word for that f case. So those people said problem Your problem is you have a vendetta against Tommy Robinson because the last nights on his show, he gave you a shell lacking and you've never feated him before. No he didn't I never said Don't he takes It's the politics show cast You're not seeming to understand that this is a cat judgment. Yeah. This is you can't be subjective about what court has decided,, better or worse in some cases, but that is what a court has decided, and that is why that sentence was delivered And she didn't quite seem to understand that It was the worrying thing the whole way through, I think, that like as you said, there were two different paces of conversation being had. And even again, with Cenk being an American commentator, there was also there were comments about like some of the people that were on stage were wearing bacon, some people that were making Islamophobic comments. She was like, lookook, I'm an atheist It doesn't really matter to me. These are all just provocations But there was kind of like this undertone of like, o, if he doesn't if it doesn't matter to him, then it's not offensive whatsoever. It was like The debate wasn't It was being had at two different levels, I think. And when it came to the particular point where you walked out, I think that level was on full display where it was I just want a little bit of theater for myself to then go on and commentate on other outlets about what just happened And you you is the collateral in that Well thats that's the that's the game, isn't it I suppose? That is the podcasting network game you know, I thought that the conversation was completely devalued and, you know, the sort of the point of I'm not going to let these women get away with this. I'm not going to let them get away with thinking that rape doesn't matter. you're ascribing things to me that just they do not exist. This this is not something It wasn't the conversation being had. It wasn't the conversation being had at all And I don't know if it was a willful lack of understanding or a simple lack of understanding, but there was There was a lack of understanding. I think you can be generous and say that it was a willful lack of understanding. and in that there's then the conversation about on the podcast whp. yesterday that we were talking about where there's kind of a Um, an economy of takes and an economy of as You need to be as outrageous as possible in these spaces to be guaranteed to get any sort of business or recognition or contininued income from doing that. And I think if it's a willful misunderstanding of the debate that's being had It's a very cynical way to go about it to accuse you of something that I mean You don't need to know you I know you very well, but I don't need to know you very well that you're not a a rape sympathizer you know. Like it's a very basic human to human It's a cheap punch, isn't it? Yeah. T me it's sort of like the punch you give to the guy at the pub who's just sort of trying to serve you a drink. It't make it doesn't make any sense. Yeah. D don't even know if that analogy works, but just't it just didn't make any sense. don't you don't care about rape What you what are you basing that on? Are you you're basing that that came off the back of me saying Point of fact, police forces were not recording ethnicity Ego, which was one of the biggest crisis during the Grooming gang scandal. Eirgo point that you have raised that not that she'd raised that the American commentator has raised cannot be proven Yeah And then to just jump down your throat after that, I think is just a You know, there' some quite interesting, you know, I thought the more interesting bits about it actually were eararlier in the conversation, we were talking about the BMP. And you know, I said you know we've got that clip as well actually. Under the guise of other political movements, Tommy Robinson has managed to sort of launder his reputation with the British National Party, the BNP, which believed in ethnic nationalism He would not have wanted any person of color if he believed in what the BMP did at that time that much. And what scares me is that this is just the beginning. It's get everyone on side. what's going to happen I mean, does that not worry you that he was in the BNP Does that not scare you? So why did he leave the BNP? Why did he stop support? the BNP disbanded, it stopped becoming a political force. It stopped being a political force. Well from my understanding of Tomy Robinson, he left the BNP, he left the EDL because of these racist rhetorics. For example, there's a new party could Restore Britain. afterfter Restore Britain launched, there was a lot of people that were being extremely racist towards people like myself And Tommy Robinson actually recently came out and made a video saying that Rupert Low needs to actually sort this out and stop the racism. So I'm quite confused to how you're still here trying to be so when you haveag say all that Africans also singing at the event. We saw so many Siks and you're still trying I'm trying to say he say was racist, you still think Well I didn't say that he was racist. I said that he was part of the BNP that believed in ethnic nationalism. In the p. It surprises me. Can you really repent for something like that? Yes you can. You know, I don't Did you know during the EDO he had a sign that said Black and white unite and he also had a Sq division. had the black He had the LG the during theD. I just always woered Wh why you don't talk about? Where's the line drawn? because is it the one drop rule or is it like if you've been in Britain for a certain number of generations, then are you considered British in their eyes? that what concerns me is what are the parameters of race that is acceptable for someone who may have been in the BMP who may have been in the line? If he actually took the time to actually look at Tomy Robberinson's tweets rather than listening to the mainstream media that nobody cares about. me finish me finish me finish. because I justryort If you time listen to Rmediately your arg much about it He does All he does on his social media when he's me when he's not calling me a giant sausage, all he does on social media is bash Muslims. This woman be on stage during the United Kingdom rally U I was just pointing out that, you know Tommy Robinson, Steven Yaxi Lennon was am sorry, Lennon was a member of the BNP. He was a member of the EDL Her belief is that they're not racist. Th you know she doesn't believe that they are ethnoationalist. What she says, isn't it that like him leaving the EDL was on creative differences rather than anything else. She doesn't say creative differences. You heard her just there. for he didn't agree with the type of racism that they were doing. This isn't ye which is insanity. But I crucially did not call him a racist and she By the by, the reason I'm raising this is because I didn't say that. And she said, whyy dod you keep calling him a racist? I So at no point has that come out of my mouth? Yeah. I think that was quite an early warning sign to me that it doesn't matter I didn't need to say anything. I could have just sat there in complete silence and she would have had a conversation with herself. Like there was no response. Are you sensing it that early on? Because I could kind of see in that first exchange that I was like, o This is sometimes when you're on television or radio or whatever, you don't know who the person is going to be that you're sating next. Oh I didn't know who I be. assume that there's some level of like decorum when it comes to broadcast that they're able to handle themselves, they're able to listen what the person is saying and think about what they're going to say whilst listening But it seemed like from a very early stage, it was just assuming what you were saying rather than listening to what you were saying. Yeah It was It was very clear early on that we were not going to be having a two way conversation And that it was sort of that I was there in her eyes as an assumption You know, this is this is what this person thinks. You're an enigma. You're a you're the leftist blog that disagrees with everything that I'm saying When in reality, you were I think it could have made quite an interesting conversation actually. ye talkalk about the politics of the EDL. Well, I think totally. and I think it, you know, You have a journalistic interest in why does this woman want to appear on stage with Steven Yaxi Lenon? Wh does she want to be there? There is you know there is sort of like an intrigue I had of like, actually, can you tell me why you were there? What is it that attracts you to this? you know, what sort of What is the political persuasion of them that you like. But we never got into any of that minute. I mean, one of the more ridiculous comments, I think where I realized it had really just gone off track was She'd said that no one goes to Dubai and just flouts the rules of like drinking and wearing bikinis. I was just like do you know when you're just like, sorry. She said she wore a hijob. She'dar a hijob under the beach if she got a hij drink on the beach. Yeah. She'd wear a hijob on the beach. Wid you drink? No. But these are also these are all just sort of like It's like quick snapback like let me just like destroy your argument rather than like you're not going to go on holiday to Dubai and you've just been on stage at the United Kingdom rally. you are not going to go on holiday to Dubai and wear a full wch. You you know what? in a few years' time if she does that, If anything, they'd probably be offended by it. They've made that place exist for the pleasure of a Westerner. Yeah. For a Westerner to go over and say, No, actually, I'm going to be Lawrence of Arabia for the weekend. Yeah. They'd probably be more offended by that. take it off. Take it off. We've got plenty of places right any whereere we can do that. Take it off Yeah it's really bizarre. I didn't even think, you know, there's probably going to be a lot of diatrive that comes off the back of this. That's fine I think it's just more like sort of a service to the people who've been very kind to me, who've been telling me what's been going on because I've just completely been ignoring it. Yeah just to get that one that side of it, because specifically and also we've left the clip in at the beginning of this exactly how it was put onto social media, specifically so that you can understand the frustration of, well, the explanation of why I left was before that. The clipping of it made it look like Is it a different clip on YouTube and on Twitter? Yes, it is, but just put the Twitter clip in because I think that goes to the way to explaining it. You know, people come across this, it really infuriated them. It looked as if I was It looked as if I'd must have said something that made it seem I didn't care about rape. and I truly found that really upsetting. That's the bit I found upsetting. Nothing that she said, nothing about her behavior, nothing about what she said subsequently. I don't like the idea that people would think that's how I felt. Yeah. And especially also considering after you do walk off, she gets an earfull from Piersce Morgan Im from Chang. You know, I didn't watch. I watched a I kind of watched a little bit of it, but I didn't really No afterwards, afterwards they do both kind of turn around to I think peers more than Cenk, as you're walking off Cenk is saying to her you can't just say that, which is like the most generous reading of it Be Morgan then says to her that it is point blank not what she was talking about And even if it was what you was talking about, I know her well enough to know that she would not be Pro rape So why are you even bringing this up But she's fighting her corner the whole way through. Do you see how naz this conversation is that we're even having? Exactly.ight you know, some of the messages, I mean, they're just Particularly if you think you know, it was actually quite a serious point that was being raised around grooming gang. And the response to that is some of these messages, you're a nasty little cnt. stop try to push the narrative that Tommy Robinson is racist. I support him and based in bougie, destroyed you on Piers Morgan. You need to stay off TV you're a fucking idiot. That was okay. Actually, I don't really mind that one and Walk off once you start losing an argument, you silly slag, tellell your bosses to go suck a Muslim dick so he can spare a young white English girl next time if he loves him so much. Please tell me how it's racist to not like Muslim. It's religion, not a race That one actually has a picture of a baby I'll show you. I don't s of baby, but like that th ones baby in the picture Yeah I. go and walk around a council state in Britain, you fucking lying piece of shit. yourour kids feel this cultural enrichment soon, you dirty rat. I mean it's just stuff like this. and it's like Car I do I'm not trying to be self galising. I think I have quite thick skin. I really am not phazed or bothered by most of these things and I think that I was just frustrated that there were people that I no and like would think that there hadd been a conversation in which I'd devalued how Terrific It would be to have been raped Yeah I didn't like that side of it. Yeah. Yeah But also does it give like There's parents with this It's quite worrying as well that like when you're reading out those messages B. dare you accuse Tommy Robinson of being racist of the kind of career that this person has built. organizations that this person was part of Although you haven't called him that There are there's a track being there's a track being walked here D It seems bizarre that there are people in the world I would see it's so egregious for an accusation like that to be put against him. that they're willing to go to your Instagram account and call you those names becausecause you didn't say that. It's quite cult like. Yeah. Pase. It feels like there's two different societies parallel to each other Yeah One person on that panel was playing into all of the concerns of that part of society and stirring them up for no other reason than to get clout for themselves You know, It's quite worrying. Yeah and I think that one of the more fcical points being made was that somehow this person was a journalist Can you just point to me like one bit of journalism that you've done around this, apart from, you know If you're looking at people who have you know raised raaised the flag is that what I mean around grooming gangs or like, you know, really brought it to the forefront. you know, you look at someone like Maggie Oliver who's been like, you know, been on like, you know, ITV to talk about these grouping gangs. made it an unavoidable conversation that had to play out in the mainstream because of her tireless campaigning around it The sort of the water has been picked up. They sort of like Stolen Balor. Yeah. I think it does a real job disservice to those poor women who had to suffer it. You know, and I even look at you know, this country and you know, you got your We've been talking about this since I've been doing the circuit on TV for a while. I always laugh when I'm thinking, like I actually never even wanted to do TV. I don't even understand how this is happened. I just don't really care to do it at all. You know, on that early on, I was saying, you know, the rape conviction rate is four percent And you would have someone who was antagonistic on the sort of the more menist sort of vibe saying to you like, that's because women lie. And it's strange that in that context women lie, but when it comes to these grooming gangs like But you know, in both scenarios women aren't lying. You know what I mean? Like this is something that happened to them and it's egregious and horrendous. How have women been failed by this one they Totally the flag up for? Totally They have not been failed by all others. Yeah. for the ninety six percent that don't You know Yeah I mean, you look at those, you know, couple of boys who got off just the other day Itas gone to appeal now as well. hasas gone to appeal and the government have gotten involved in it. I mean it is That sentencing is absolutely horrendous.. Horrendous And You know Ah Anyway I'm sure that there will be. Yeah, there's probably gonna be another one of these at some point. There be another one of these and Right What do you reckon About there? Yeah