Discussing Queer Trauma and Final Thoughts

This message comes from Rosetta Stone and their newest language learning experience, Rosetta Stone Sapphire, personersalized learning so you can focus on what matters most to you. ice real life conversations in an interactive setting before you use your skills in the real world takeake your language skills to the next level. Get unlimited access to all twenty five Rosettaestone languages, plus all the new Spphire learning tools. Visit roosettaestone dot com slash npR and receive twenty percent off today You should go see the new indie horror film Leviticus. It's both a queer coming of age romance and a blistering indictment of gay conversion therapy. Mostly though, it is a seriously creepy movie. about a demonic entity that knows exactly how to get to you. I mean, I think it's pretty terrific, but I'm curious to hear what the rest of the panel thinks. I'm Glenn Weldon, joining me today on NPR's pop culture Hay Hour is film and culture critic Kate Young, Hey, Kate. Thanks for having me. Also with us is Freelance music and culture journalist, Rhanna Cruz, Hey Rhanna. Hey, Glen, happy to be here. Hey, let's get to it Leviticus is set in a small Australian backwater where teenage Name and his mother belong to a religious community. Name is played by Joe Byird, who you might remember from Talk to me. Stacey Clausson plays his friend Ryan. They start having feelings for each other, which touches off a chain of increasingly violent events. Name is stalked by a threatening presence that takes Ryan's form while Ryan keeps getting attacked by something that pretends to be name Leviticus is in theaters now. R'anna kick us off. What do you think? Leviticus feels like type of gay movie that I would fixate on in high school It's tone driven, you know, the main characters kiss less than ten minutes in. There's a Frank Ocean needle drop. It's kind of erotic. like it felt kind of like a fan fiction. and I think that's a feature, not a bug.. However, at the same time, I don't know if I connected with it, to be honest. I think it's a kind of rare movie where it's gay horror done well, stepping outside of the box a little bit to focus on belonging belief, you mentioned conversion therapy. That's the main theme. It just didn't really connect with me, I think. I find it defeatingly bleak in a way that I usually I like bleak movies not This one, I felt like it had surface level messaging in terms of queerness and community. You know, like the fear will never get you if you're never alone. That's kind of the message of the entity here When I was watching it, I was like technically This is a good movie. and I can see why people like it, but there's something missing, I think between the film and me connecting with it. You know, I finished the movie and it was kind of in one ear out the other. Okay, How about you, Kid I kind of feel the same. I didn't dislike it. I thought that it was good at the kind of like baseline horror stuff. It definitely had a really good like creepy kind of atmosphere that really worked on me. I think the highlight for me is the actual relationship between this couple. I think they're very sweet. It reminded me a lot of heart stoppers on Netflix. They're just like adorable and they have real chemistry and I think that That's something that could easily have been like overlooked because it's a horror film, but it not only hasn't been, but I think it makes the horror more visceral because the way in which this entity functions, it preys on the thing that you most love. And because we are able to see the way that they feel about each other, every time they interact with this thing, it gets worse in ways that feel much more personal and much more upbsetting specifically because of that aspect of it. Yeah that I really like. But I think in general, you know, it's kind of like its own play on it follows That stuff is interesting, but it felt like there were really good moments kind of tied together with like bits that were fine. Okay As you might have gleaned from my intro, I liked this a lot. I kind of liked it a hell a lot more than y'all did I liked everything about it. From the look of it, you know, this dusty rusted out factory town on the edge of the outback which you can tell either say it or it's actually implied that it was built around the church I really like these performances. These are not thirty year olds playing teenagers. like that's key because so much of this movie is resting on these kids' shoulders in the performances itself When I like a movie this much, I go out and I read the reviews because I want to hear the critiques. And I read one that was mostly positive But mention in passing in a sentence. You know, sometimes the logic of the monster doesn't always make sense. And I remember just feeling so angry I was going to rush to the barricades to defend this because I don't know, I'll just speak for me as a queer man who was a queer kid I think the conceit here premise is something you could just bounce a quarter off of. I mean, the thing that will kill you takes the form of the thing you most desire. So these fundamentalists in this movie are weaponizing queer desire to rid themselves of queer people. Show me the lie. I mean, queer people grow up in communities that hate them and we internalize that hate. and that internalization is the thing that's doing the work that these bigots want to do. is insidious, and that's exactly what this film captures in a way that some people of faith might find unfair. I don't Because it gets something else correct too. It gets this thing that was even more galling and I thought was even more accurate, which is, over the course of this film, a queer kid dies And when that happens, those same bigots point to The queerness itself as the cause, completely absolving themselves and their hatred and their fear from the equation Show me the lie. I mean, the metaphor there is air tight and it's about as good a working definition of evil as you're going find anywhere. I think you were on the show, Randon when we talked about I saw the TV Glow, right? Yeah, Oh, totally. Love that flick. Yeah. My defensiveness about this film kind of feels like the way I felt defensive about that film. and I understand they' very own films. That is another queer film whose central metaphor is admittedly doing a lot of heavy lifting. But I will hear no disparagement because I don't know. I just feel so protective and I get the irony. I get that I am being evangelical about this film because I want people to see it. I want people to like it. Totally. Can you speak to something that just didn't hit you so that I may refute it? It's interesting, you know, hearing your talk, Glen, because some of the critiques that I had are now, I think, being recontextualized, I feel a little bit more compassionate towards this movie that I did. I think The movie does a lot of things well. You know, you mentioned the setting. I think the setting is a big in why this movie works. because I think similar with TV Glow, which I loved and is one of my favorite movies of the past several years, like The setting in Deadend Surbia,. is something that really seeps in from every corner of the frame. You know, you're watching these characters ride their bikes next to a giant factory. They just exist in this context and everything makes sense that way didn't really do it for me is I felt like it was simple. largely. And when I watch horror movies, it's not like I need them to be grand and vast and tackle these large things, but I felt like the concept of Leviticus was written in one sentence and made into a movie. And that's what I mean when I say it's kind of fanfictiony. Because when I was watching, it felt like you could plug in, you know, these famous gay ships that people on the internet do in this context. and maybe it's because I grew up on Tumblr, but this is a very like Humbler cooded and appealing narrative And I thought that there was a little bit of a lack of complexity that I was searching for. It' reallyally good. And maybe that's again, a feature, not a bug, but that's what I thought. Kate, where were you? Yeah, I think that that central metaphor lastash representation of this monster, like that works for me in much the same way that you were explaining earlier, Glen. Like I thought that was actually really Co. because it's simple, right? and it's easy to understand and easy to convey. But I'm glad you guys brought up I saw the TV gllp because that is a movie that deeply unsettled me when I saw it the first time. Like even thinking about it now, like I can feel my poise reacing because there was such a mood and atmosphere that really guided you towards this like totality of what it feels like to be in that position as a queer person and having to figure out how to move through the world. And I feel like with this film, We see them move through the world, but I don't really have a good sense of what their community actually is. We see them at church and we know that they're homophobic I feel like I don't have a sense of them within the spaces that they exist. They spend a lot of time alone together, which makes sense I think because of that, their relationship as well as what they're struggling with and the introduction of this entity It feels very singular And I think because of that, it doesn't feel like I have a full enough story to really get invested Honestly, to me, the reason to see this film is the performances. They're really good. And as I mentioned before, like their chemistry is fantastic. Honestly, I think that the movie wouldn't have worked for me at all if that wasn't it But I don't know that I can say like bad things about it, but that's exactly how I feel. I'm cooler Okay, we'll stick around. We'll have more thoughts on what worked and what didn't after this break This message comes from Dell teechnologies. Get long lasting battery life on the Dell XPS laptop powered by Sies three and Telcore. Now from six hundred ninety nine dollars. with exclusive student pricing from five hundred ninety nine dollars. Visit Dell d. com slash deals This message comes from NPR sponsor Carvana, making buying a car one hundred percent online with real transparent pricing and customizable financing that fits your budget. Browse thousands of cars and get yours delivered Visit cararvana. com today. Delivery fees and terms may apply This is our glass On this American life, when we like is a good mystery. Sometimes about really big things For most times ittle mysteries is at the best. Our Lost and foundound is currently filled with pants. I don't know I've never seen this happen. This is true. This is true Mysteries of every size Each week this American life wherever you get your podcasts And we're back Okay, so you're both touching on critiques that I've actually seen when I read all those reviews, and it is a critique that I didn't object to because I kind of get it, which is that the religious community feels a bit underwritten. His mom certainly feels a little underwritten. I don't know though, because there's a different version of this film which is made more for like a four quadrant kind of mainstream audience where we get a lot more of the religious community being and again, like No offense, but if Stephen King wrote this, we would see the religious community being mustached twirly evil, right and taking joy in the destruction of queer lives. What this film gets that I really liked actually is That's not how it works because the kind of negations of self and the spirit that these folks are engaged upon is not something that's joyous and ecstatic, It makes everyone miserable because they know it's damage. They know it's abuse And in this film, the people doing this harm are telling themselves they're doing it for the kids good because his soul will be saved. And that also makes sense to me because that's what a community like this would trade upon. A kid dies, misery deepens The community sense of misery deepens. So as that happens, they need to reach for this sense of divine salvation. So the white knuggle grip on dogma just gets harder and harder But I get it. on a script level, on a characterization level You could say they're underwritten, or you could say as I do it, I think theyre cracked it. because I think there's a truth here that goes deeper than the story beats and the demands of screenplay structure Because if we got more of the religious folks God forbid, if like the preacher character became the villain, right that they had to No we didn't needat him. We didn't need more of him. That would feel really artless and basic to me. and I kind of admire. that they didn't go that way. But this is as you both mentioned, this is a bleak film. and I know We've talked on the show. I've talked to both of you about horror as trauma They're intertwined. We've also talked about queer trauma. This is, you know, two two mins in one Yeah. So what would you say to folks who say Why would I want to see a film about queer trauma? Why can't there be a happy ending? Why would I subject myself to this? I hear this critique, by the way, from a lot of younger queer folks And I get it And I feel a certain way about it, but I want to hear what you guys think. I mean, I think The reason to see it unfortunately is the moment that we're in right now. I think that while I have issues with the structure and I think the story is a little simple That central metort does work. and I think the cleverness of that is what kind of hits you viscerally, especially with those performances. And I think that while we've been able to have a lot of queer stories that were more joyous and were more exciting and were written by Ryan Murphy, but like I think that now We're in this space where that kind of hope that we had is kind of leaching from the culture. It doesn't mean that I want like more terrible sad things, but it makes sense to me that we would start making more art that reflects this moment And unfortunately, it's not a great one. Yeah, it doesn't really leave you with a warm feeling in your heart. And I think that's good. you know, I like bleak movies. When I say it's defeatingly bleak I think that's a good thing, even though it didn't connect with me. But yeah, I agree with what Kate said There's room for movies like this. I mean, everybody's talked ad nauseum about how horror is having a moment right now. And this is a refreshing take on a kind of G Z horror that is missing, I think, from the culture. I mean, we mentioned it follows as kind of an ororte text for this film But I think it does something different. then it follows, it's a little bit more complex than that narrative. I like that I don't know.. I'm struggling with, you know talking to you both about not liking the movie or not even not liking it, just having a not do much for me and then being here and being like, everybody should see it. And I think people should because I don't know, evenven though it was kind of in one ear and out the other for me I still respect what it's doing. Yeah. I like that it's taking risks, even though those risks to me are not Satisfying stops it from being like more terrible things on top of terrible things is the ending. And to me, that like little bit of that little bit of refusal to succumb to the homophobia that they're being subjected to To me, that is what is needed to kind of demonstrate that like, yes, these things are bad, Yes, we're having to deal with them again Yes, this is like a difficult moment for quiite people, but like we ind do. And to me, like if the movie didn't have that, then I