Lack of Stakes and Historical Realism

One of the best bits in the animated movie Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse was the taste we got of a black and white 1930s film noir Spider-Man who talked in Dasho Hammett dialogue and sound ed like Nicolas Cage because he was voiced by Nicolas Cage. Well, if you like that taste, Prime Video is serving you up an all-you-can-eat buffet with Spider Noir, a new live-action series starring Nicolas Cage. But does the show get its blend of noir and superheroes right? I'm Glenn Weldon. Today we're talking about Spider Noir, Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR . Joining me today is filmmaker, pop culture critic, and iHeart Radio Producer Joelle Monique. Welcome back, Joelle. Thanks, Glenn. Glad to be here. Great to have you. Also with us is Daisy Rosario. She's the senior supervising producer of audio at Slate, where she works with shows like Death, Sex and Great to have you. In Spider Noir, Nick Cage is Ben Riley, a down-on-is luck private dick who used to be New York's only superhero, the spider. But following a tragedy, he's hung up his mask. Ruby once told me that with great power comes great responsibility . Well, she was the greatest responsibility I ever had . And I failed her . A spider failed her. That is, until a case involving a lot of noir-inflected analys Spidey's reporter pal Robbie. The press materials say that this is not a spin-off of the Spider-Verse movies and it's set in its own separate universe, but come on. In an unusual move, the series' eight episodes are presented in two formats: color and black and wh ite. Trust us, go with black and white. Spider Noir is streaming now on Prime Video. We should mention Amazon supports NPR and pays to distribute some of our content. Joel, we're going to start with you. Is this the stuffed dreams are made of? Oh, maybe not dreams, but definitely not nightmares either. I think there's a lot of fun stuff to enjoy. Nicholas Cage, Nicholas Caging, all over this joint. He is over the top . It's why he's a star. He's goofy but somehow still affectionate and resonant. But I think overall I had a really difficult time with the tone of the show. I love a good noir. To me, noir is all about secrets and trying to understand the human condition and then usually there's a in very intense crime involved. I felt the crime was kind of all over the place and didn't quite build in a way that was satisfactory. And I felt there was a lot of struggle to get the blend of like when is it okay to be funny and when is it okay to be like deep and darkly dramatic and it kind of trying to do both washed it out. Right. I will say what I appreciated about the series is a lot of times, particularly when we're doing comic books within other genres, we want to make everything very sanitized. In other words, uh we do blind race casting and we're not going to address the struggles of the time period. Or that becomes the whole thing. It's just about the struggles of the time period, which becomes laborious. I felt that this found a really good balance between like, okay, there was some segregation. Okay, not everyone would have respected everyone in their position because of the color of their skin. Right. But this is nobody's like sob story. And I was pleasantly surprised by that. So there's again some things to enjoy, some cute performances. I thought costuming was sensational. And the black and white was beautiful. So if you if you just like watching black and white images, you could just tune right off and enjoy the visual imagery of the show. All right. That's uh I think that's the dictionary definition of a mix mixed review. What about you, Daisy? Oh man. Okay. What a slog I found this to be. Oh Daisy. Unmixed. I wanted to really like this. Like, I am a fan of basically all of the parts, right? Like, I also love like film noir. I do love the Spider-Verse movies themselves. I thought it was so fun, these different characters that they brought in and gave us like little hints of and they said it's not exactly the same, but it's the only reason we have the show. So you know, fair enough. I think Nicolas Cage can be a good time. I actually wanted him to be bigger. Right. Okay, like just really go for it if you're gonna go for it. Right. And I know that it's kind of an over said thing right now, but to me it really gave like, is this a chat GPT script? In the sense of like it had all of the elements that you know should exist for something that is both based in noir and based in superhero, but it didn't feel like it knew how to actually use those things to maximum effect. It just felt like it was like, okay, we need something like this. We've got that. Check. But they didn't come together. I will say I don't think any of the performers are giving like bad performances per se. I forgot until Jo elle said it about what I thought was actually one of the strongest parts, which was weirdly the race thing. Yeah. Weirdly you guys got that part right. I think so perfect. But overall , it was just a slug. And I mean, I really like so many of the people that are in this. And the fact that I know I would not have pressed play on any episodes past the first one were I not preparing for this very conversation Uh-huh. Is just ma truth. It's my truth. Okay. I come down between you two, but man, after that first episode, I was totally team daisy. Ultimately I do think this missed the mark. I just don't think it goes hard enough because it's adopting noir as a style as an affect. And that's not what noir is. Noir is a conceptual basis. It's like it can't be slathered over the top. It has to be baked in, it has to saturate every aspect of what's on screen or, it just comes off as a goof, and I think it comes off as kind of a goof here. Uh pastiche. But I will say that was me after the first episode, I groused to producer Mike about how the show was such a misfire, and he asked me uh just in passing, how I watched it, and I said, well, I just clicked on the first screener I got, that was the color one. He said, watch it in black and white. And I watched the second episode and the rest of the episode in black and white. And that effect was greatly lessened because boy, I didn't color worked at all. But it still's there. Even in black and white, there is a feeling of just we're all saying the same thing. Not wanting to commit to the bit or to wink at the bit. The mission statement is off. I felt like it was checking up those noir elements dutifully, like they were stations of the cross. Instead of reveling in them and sell I I don't know if these people love noir. I think they love extending a superhero IP. I don't know think they love noir. Even when we're looking at like the shots, some of these shots are composed so beautifully, but then you'll go 15 minutes without a beautifully composed shot, and you're like, we were just at the table with the mirror effect and it was so gorgeous. Where did that go? It just comes and goes so randomly too. I wish that there had been some kind of stake straight through where it was like everyone is serious, but Nick Cage is the clown in the space. I thought that might have worked. Or if we had more of a a pleasantville effect where, you know, I know they're trying to separate it from the movie. I'm not quite sure why that was the decision that ended up being made, but like in the movie, his character finds a Rubik's cube and he's perplexed and like he's like astounded by it. And I thought, oh, perhaps we'll bring this idea of moving from black and white to color, yeah, and kind of explore that, but that's not really the thing either. I guess I was just confused as to like what they enjoyed about this character. Was it just Nick Cage's goofy voice, which again very entertaining, enjoy watching him on screen, but not really enough to carry like a full series. I didn't really understand like what the end goal was. Yeah. As somebody who really loves Spider-Man and somebody who's like a fan of Nicholas Cage and Noir, you know, to your point, Daisy, I was just like, all the elements are here. And you know, if we can mention like Li Jong Li is so fun. I just really love her as an actress. And I thought like, oh, her is cat is like that's a really great casting. Like that's really fun. I thought Lamorne, you know, when he was allowed to be serious and very grounded as a journalist was sensational. But then they had him doing some jokes that felt sort of like almost like his Winston character from New Girl. And I was like, I don't understand why this is happening here. And again, love Winston, love Lamarin, like great characters, but just confusing in this space. Yeah. You can do noir superheroes. I just don't think it's happening here, and I don't know why, because if there's any superhero who could handle a noir treatment, it's Spider-Man who is everyman who gets beat up all the time, who's feckless, even though he has powers, he's the guy who like noir heroes get the crap beat out of them all the time. And he does here, but it's still I like I think noir is a point of view and it has to be cynical and dark and disappointed in humanity, right? And not depressed about that. People let you down, but it's not depressed about that because there is in noir a tone of justification like I was right. Dames are bad news and the richer out for everyone and people let you down and this thing that everyone's killing for is uh fake. And you can adapt that to extend your superhero IP. It can work in small doses, but I think you have to tell a fundamentally different story. I'm not sure why this isn't working when on paper, it should. Right. Any ideas why it's not? I mean, I found myself struggling with the same thing because like, you know, I just I just wasn't compelled by it, right? Like to the point where again, I do like these actors so much that like out loud I. was like, oh, Lamor itne,'s not your fault. I just can't get into it. Like I, you know, like I might like that's what I'm saying out loud to my TV as I'm watching it. I did find myself like thinking a lot about the script, but also not necessarily finding enough obvious fault with it to be like this explains it either. And then the show itself does have that mix that I feel like we're seeing a little bit more of now of like looking both like very expensive and very cheap at the same time in like weird ways. Like there are moments in the show where I was like, did Nicolas Cage just like call six people up and say we're gonna make a show? And then they found a room and now they're just talking in the room. You know, so it's just like veering back and forth on these things, but also not in a way that was so extreme that I could like really start laughing at it. If you're gonna be bad, just be bad. Be really bad so that you're at least still compell ing. Like I was kind of offended by how bored I was more than anything, especially because I do love that's fair. So many of these actors. Like I think the actors themselves are really, really talented and also I was like, did you guys shoot this over a weekend at some moments? Like it was very confusing. Yeah. Here's the thing I think the series needed more of. The series needed more romance between Cat and the Spider. Whatever kind of chemistry was building a minute immediately diminishes. I think it needed more Brendan Gleason in a more upfront way. I thought he was probably for me the best parts. Whenever he was on screen, I was like clicking back in. And I think it's just because the character really, like Brendan's doing a great job, but you know, uh Zaynzi was saying everyone's doing a great job, but but that character feels the most grounded in a noir universe. He's an older guy who's losing his perceived control. He's still the ruler, but he's like, Are people questioning me? Are they not showing up? Like, am I being put out to pasture before I'm ready? No, I'm still the boss. That's really interesting. Um, Brendan Gleason's character, Silver Main, has this relationship with Kat Hardy. She's like a lounge singer who's kind of almost like a doll for him. He just like amasses this control over her life. It's strictly about you wear these clothes, you perform in my club, that kind of situation. Yeah. Which I found really compelling for her. Like for the women in this series, you know, they get really interesting starting points, but I feel like where they go, they don't. They can kind of just stay in the same place. To me, here's the biggest sin of the show. Noir at a time when you know women were going through a lot, we'll say, had really interesting, vibrant female characters all through the canon. Like really great, upfront, incredible, like biting dialogue, difficult situations they had to maneuver. And I just felt like our female characters were kind of stuck. They were given like some interesting starting places and then nowhere to go with that. And they all of their challenges felt superficial. Yeah. There's a human element of fear that is essential to noir of like I, don't know what's gonna happen. I'm scared for my life. I'm scared for my compatriots. I'm scared for my country. Like, you need that level of fear running throughout, and it's gotta be clear for every character. You're just missing the fear. And so all of that like suspense and grittiness and build that you love when you're watching a noir is just gone . It's difficult. I again had fun moments watching it. There are certain scenes that work, there's some good fight stuff that happens where I was like, oh, that's kind of impressive. I thought, oh my gosh, the spider noir costume is grand. It's good. So good. And we know we've seen some bad costumes in our time watching the superhero stuff. So I was like pleasantly impressed. I feel like people came to I just wish, ah man, I really wish we had tightened up on like the noir-centric element. And maybe that's our fault. Maybe as noir lovers of the word as we shouldn't have been anticipating that from like a Spider-Man thing. But I think coming off of the Spider-Verse movies and the quality that was there, I think we're all kind of hoping for that same kind of emotional resonance here. Yeah. I mean, I just didn't feel the stakes, you know. I think even before I started trying to look at it more through a noir lens, I just didn't really feel the stakes like the way that something that I'm compelled by, right? Like pulls my attention and I care, even if I don't completely understand yet why I care, right? There were some things that happened in later episodes that I did find interesting. But I even then I felt very aware of like, okay, but like I wouldn't have made it to this point. And there's just too many things vying for our attention. Yeah. We're all saying in slightly different ways, we're all saying the superficiality of its approach, its take, is what's kind of we're bouncing off of. I also have a longstanding grudge against superhero stories without superheroes, you know, your Gothams, your small bills, your pennyworths, and this thing, its whole thing is he's hung up the webs, he hung up the mask because of of tragedy, which is a very cliche thing, but in fairness, it's a very Spider-Man cliche. Like he's he's the guy who's always hanging up the suit. So I'm gonna give her props. And I'm about to make a very petty point, but I think it speaks to what we're all kind of talking about, this kind of grab bag noir pastiche thing. Lucas Haas plays a like a an assistant. Lucas Haas, this is a period piece. Either wear a wig or cut your damn hair. You can't have that shag in the 1930s. But you know, you can say, well, this is an alternate universe. That might explain why there is a 1958 peric omo version of Accentuate the Positive as a needle drop in episode two, even though this is supposed to be set in the thirties. And in episode three, Ben quotes Betty Davis saying What a dump, which is from a nineteen forty-nine movie uh Beyond the Forest, so yes, given that, why wouldn't a character in the thirties have this Fallout Boy haircut? You know, sure. Why not? Nothing matters. No stakes. I did find the time period a little confusing. We talked a little bit about it uh off mic Well the costumes are are screaming like World War One and it's clearly the thirties. There's so much they're like, Oh you can't quite tell if the depression has just hit or are we facing like the tail end of it. Yeah. And also, I just really don't appreciate things that are too clean in cinema. Yeah. And I feel like if we're in the middle of a depression, everybody needs to be much more scraggly. It needs to be much harder times. We get a lot of mentions of, oh we have no money but then no consequences of not having the money. Somehow it's always magically there when we need it, which I find as a a formerly extremely poor person very difficult to follow. I'm like, what's that? It's not how people with zero funds operate. I think that level of realism would have helped us, you know, because when you look at like the canon noir, you don't get a lot of like mysticism or science fiction. It's just not part of the genre. And so I think when you're going to blend them, you've got to really nail down your noir elements so that those other elements can shine. I also think to your point, Daisy, two minutes interesting side love piece which I I won't spoil for folks who are excited to watch which I thought was really interesting. I thought their chemistry probably the best romantically in the series. Why don't I have six more scenes with them? Right. I need much more time with these people. How did you fall in love? What is your relationship like? What is hiding it like? How does it the push and pull of each other? Like you get so little of it that it's it's oh my gosh I was dying. I was like please please I love the love in an it's always so sticky difficult. It is a lot of telling and not so much showing. Yeah. Even in the Hoovervilles, to your point, Joel, even in the Hoovervilles, people have kind of smudges on their faces like a high school production of Blame is, and that's kind of where it kind of cuts off. I don't know. Uh so you know, you heard us talk about this, folks. We're not sold on it. You might be. It's very pretty to look at. That brings us to the end of our show. Joel Monique, Daisy Rosario. Thank you so much for being here. We'll have a better thing next time. Thanks, Glenn. This episode was produced by Hops the Potom and Mike Catzivin, edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy, and Hello Kim and provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Glenn Weldon, and we'll see you all next time