Personal Motivation and Future Outlook

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Valid through sevenenty eight while supplies l. seelection d is by location Hello and welcome to your Radical Quions. This is where I put your questions to one of our magnificent radical guests. It's a chance for you to engage very directly with the people we have on this podcast I really interrogate them I'll try and interrogate them on your behalf about their big and radical ideas for the future Siv Man' got a few of those, in fact, one in particular. It's a very big city ast Ang. Schiv believes that successive governments in this country have not given anyone born after nineteen seventy nine a fair chance. In fact, they've had a rotten deal. He first started writing about this well over fifteen or twenty years ago with a book called The Jilter Generation in twenty ten. He argued that too many people are paying expensive rents, too few own their homes, and he thinks that's not just costing them country in terms of loss growth And he's got a radical idea, a solution, you might call it. A brand new city For a million people, comprised of around four hundred thousand affordable homes, East Anglia It's called Forest City. It's certainly divided some opinion, local opinion, maybe again some of it for lots of people more broadly very very excited about this. He's got some big big backers. It's fair to say that people locally sometimes question some of the specifics. If you want to hear all about that, please do go and listen to the main podcast. It was out last Thursday But as always, we're thrilled to say loads of you Bean Shiv, I can tell you enjoyed that conversation didn't you in Thursday' eisode Becauseuse it's n to have a bit of time. It's what podcasts give you right? Yeah, I did. It was you know, city is a big thing, so it takes a long time to go Exactly exactly. and to put all the questions to you. right. We've had loads of questions for you Siv as you can imagine. And thank you so much as ever, to every single person who sent in a question. It means a world to us. It shows how incredibly engaged you are in this podcast and that means the world to us. Our first question is from Darl. The forest city seems very laudable and an excellent idea. twoo points. One, is it replicable? Does it solve a heousing crisis? No, it doesn't It's a very good idea, but it isn't replicable within a British context of renewing urban areas and increasing the supply demand. Secondly, you talk about it being affordable, three hundred fifty thousand pounds houses are not affordable housing in the context of what is needed for housing supply to solve the issue I hope that makes sense. Thank you Darryl, thank you very much, Indeeda. two points. Let me put this to you. First of all, it's not replicable and therefore doesn't solve the housing crisis. Second, your definition of affordable at three hundred fifty thousand pounds is well it's not affordable. So you need to do this and you can only really do it in places where there are a couple of things. One is a massive amount of demand For example, Oxford, Cambridge have priced to earnings, you know for homes are about eleven of the ratioight cost of house is eleven times your anual salary. E exactly. That's a really good signal for demand, right? And there are other places, but not everywhere.? So people say, oh, why don't you just build a city in Northumbria or Wales, right whereere there's loads of space and far a few people and leave us alone in a sense. You couldn't do it there because you just don't have that demand. And you don't want to make a mistake by locating it somewhere random where people don't There is there there are, I think it is replicable but in only a few other places in the country would be I guess my answer on that. And the second part of it is people are also sort of very obsessed with urban renewal. Well that it's very expensive. And often you don't end up with any more homes than before. You just make the homes that are there nicer or replace them with nicer homes. And and we've been obsessed with that for twenty years because we don't actually want to kind of, you know Bite down and do the hard thing, which is to say we should build on what is basically sixty percent plus of England, which is agricultural land, right? That's two thirds of the country. Only nine percent of England is currently urban land, and that includes the bits that are canals and parks and golf courses, etcetera. What about the idea that three hundred fifty thousand pounds is actually not at all afford. If you're a nurse on thirty five thousand, you're not going to have ten times that to afford a house. So that is for a four bedroom house. I think it is affordable because technically you know a couple earning forty five grand each is about the average wage, especially in that area, even lower than that, you know, it sits within that historic range of affordability, right? really? Look, it's not cheap Yeah It's not free. but it isn't subsidized. It's not affordable. I mean a lot of people hear the word affordable and they say they'd hope a single mom with two kids who's working really hard as a nursery assistant on twenty seven thousand pounds maybe outside of London. evenless they could afford it They certainly could' afford three hundred fifty thousand. So look affordability means lots of things sure It's actually got a technical definition, which we bow out of the water, which is twenty percent less than the kind of market rate. Yeah, we're already kind of forty percent less. So we're massively affordable on that basis. So that's one yardstick. But people are right. like it's it really truly affordable. I can anyone just buy this?ould poor people move? yeah, they can. they'll be needed to be subsidized in exactly the way that the government currently subsidizes people. But the scheme itself, which is again run by the government will wash its own face. And that's for me the important part. Can I deliver something that can actually pay for itself? If you want to make it, if you want to subsidize it, and there of course will be dedicated social housing. and obviously, we haven't talked about the rental part, which is thirty percent, that's really affordable a rental, then sure, If you want to subsidize it then it'll be even cheaper That's a secondary conversation The first thing is you got to build this city. OkayK, Daryryl, thank you very much, indeed for your questions This next one is from doror Camilla Allen in Sheffield. Here's Camilla. The illustrations for Forest City One look like every other anonymous and placeless CGI utopia we've seen from developers of late Pristine streets, impossible light No mess, no context and no history Britain has a tradition of genuinely radical new toown planning Places like Harlowe, Stevenidge and East Kilbride are places where planners, architects, and landscape architects wrestled seriously with the question of what makes a place feel human So what exactly is radical about ignoring all of that history and heritage in favor of Orendnder? Camilla, thank you so much. I've got the glory of the amazing production team on this podcast picture in front of me of that artist's impression. So by the way it's called Forest City onene because your hope is that to address Darl's point, it is replicable that other cities are inspired by this around this country and indeed elsewhere So this city there's lots of trees. I'm looking at a particular I'll show you which picture I'm looking at. I'm looking at a particular kind of avenue of sorts, which has a cycle coming down it which tells you we might be in the vicinity of Cambridge stairs kind of pleasing hederows and bushes in front of lovely gentle stairs And the architecture, I would say, is in sympathy with its surroundings. So you've got nice curved fronts, big glass windows, multi story apartments where you could imagine a family living. It looks quite sort of American suburban in some ways. It's supposed to be emulative. So first of all, we're a project that's done when we started, we have zero cash And almost all of the work to date has been done pro bono. I have not been paid either So no one's making any money off of this and that also means we don't have the resources to off renders are expensive proper but is a render A render is like, well, you you go to an architect or a proper rendering firm and they will take your drawings and actually turn them into a proper image. But you know there's so much detail, like know where the sunlight falls and how the trees actually dapple and where do we use the right. We just used AI for this because that was the cheapest way to communicate. We live in a visual age. So your caller is right, We're not getting rid of the radicalism of Carlo Stage lectureth. Yeah, or actually I would say of, you know, the early Garden cities movement, you know, and there are been long critiques of all of that stuff by Jane Jacobs, right? actuallyct she takes Letchwith Garden City to task in her book and her huge toome Falling on from the sixties. So the image isn't what it will be at the end of the day. We're going to create new images, which I think are far more reflective of what's really going on. Do you know what they're going to look like? Do you know what the city is going to look like? Well, we are right now building away the four bedroom protypable sort of four bedroom house. So we're working with an architecture firm, or robotics firm. People will be able to see and visit and touch and feel this thing not very long from now. It might take sort of six months more. It will be emblematic, I think how we want Forest City to look and the aesthetics. What inspiration do you take from places like Harlow, Stevening and Lechworth? orr what do you want to avoid from there? I think look, there's a lot to avoid in terms ofesthetics. There's a lot to avoid in terms of economics. They did not work economically. There's one of your arguments for the location of Forest City is that it's close to Cambridge which is a new kind of center of gravity Exactly. and you talk to major employeers there, including, you know AM Exactly. In fact, talking to the SVP of AAM You know, one of the major things is they've opened up in Manchester because Cambridge ultimately it's really hard to expand, for example, and it's also really difficult for their own employees to afford homes. That's true of all companies that employ people in Cambridge, right? And so what do they do? right? Do they just say, well, we'll try and pay you a lot more give up or move somewhere else, right? And ultimately that's you know, those are the choices that companies kind of make and much of the deficit of of Cambridge because can't solve those issues The radicalism that I like is the stuff that goes back to kind of political economy, right? Cities that own themselves, N neo, if you want, municipalism what do you do to take back those basics of, you know, energy, transport and water and housing, right? How does a city own itself so it's the landlord rather than, you know pension is saying, a, well, I'll own a house and let some kind of young student pay for my pension. Well, that's a terrible way to run an economy. We don't want to rent our economy. So that's the stuff that I think is really radical. That's actually what Ebeneza Howard, who, by the way, was a journalist Who city Yeah, who set up Lechworth a Garden City in the Garden City movevement in his book, Tomorrow. If you read it, it's actually by the way, full of accounts, It's very boring read you think It would be more interesting given that he was a journalist. But actually that's the bit that he was radical about and tried to get right, failed, but which is like, look, how do you make this housing affordable forever or for many, many generations to come. On Thursday's episode, I stated the probably not very impartial opinion and very very controversial view that quite often old buildings look nicer than new ones which has developed a kind of strange political tinge here, partly because a previous or recent conservative government asked the late Cervative philosopher Roger Sroton to do this work called beautif or something along those lines. And it's just a very, very, very strange thing to me that it's become a sort of right wing thing to believe in sort of beautiful buildings built in sympathy with their surroundings. But one of the reasons people might also believe that is because of Poundbury, which is this place in Dorset that Prince Charles kind of envisioned in the nineteen eighties To what extent do you look at pound Bree as a lesson or inspiration For me, I don't simply want to re emulate the past in terms of aesthetics. There's a lot there in terms of placeacemaking and way finding, right? they got right I mean? they got right. That is wonderful. But can you do it with a different look? I mean, for me, Charles Ranny Mcintntosh is probably one of the best architects, I think, for us to kind of reconnect with. Scottish architect, if people aren't familiar, famous for his work in kind of Glasgow, coming off I guess the back of the kind of arts Dco and arts and craft movement Iin had his own very distinctive style and for me that I've always been attracted to his work And it's ornament, right? So he didn't dispel with ornament in any way. In fact, he totally embraced it and his buildings show and reveal all of that so that there surprised and most lauded buildings in Scotland for that reason. So I look, there's a lot there that we can move forward with, but rather than simply copying the past. So that's one Charles. Have you thought about as King Charles if he might come on booard likes beautiful city. Lots of people have suggested that to me and certainly his I've read his I didn't realize he'd written several books on architecture but I've read a few of them. He was such a leader in putting right, I think a lot of the problems that had emulated from brutalism. And he certainly had incredibly strong opinions, which is still kind of resonating today, right? His famous kind of carbuncle speech is still like, you know, you can see it bouncing around in kind of architecture discourse. twenty five years later For me, I think Prince William is actually doing something quite radical. Right taking land that's owned by his estate, in effect and turning it into housing, right? It's just been recently announced. That's the sort of radicalism, obviously, I'm clearly in empathy with. So actually between father and son King and prince, There's a lot there. There could be an alliance. Thank you very much indeed for that question, Camilla. We've got another question here It's from Charles, not the king as far as we're aware, but who knows? almost certainly listens to this podcast, Everyone else does. And this Charles asks who owns the land in Varosity and how is it acquired to make the project even remotely possible? What are Schiv's credentials delivering confrontting such a huge project. What is the vision beyond Forest City? It's worth saying we kind of addressed some of this in Thursday' episode. It's worth going back to and listening to Charles. I did ask Siv slightly intemperately who the hell he is and he answered it, which I respected So let's do this in order. Who owns land How has it acquired What are your credentials and what's the vision beyond Forest City? Who owns land has it acquired? The land in that area is owned by a handful, most of it's owned by a handful of landowners who in some cases have been there for a long while In some cases, it's their home etcetera, etcetera. We're in conversations with them. We've got landowners who publicly supported us Um which is great. Because they want this to see this happen. They also believe in what we believe the country is kind of on its knees at the moment, economically speaking and needs to be revivified Um, how is it acquired in the same way that you would acquire anything? you buy it So we as our own kind of company, would option the land and set it up be bought then at a reasonable price by the development corporation at the end of the day. Of course, there are holdouts and you know a development corporation will come with compulsory purchase powers That's what people usually go, oh, you're just there, you're going steal all this land. And yeah, look, I agree that compulsory purchase is a thing and the law says it should be a thing which is sparely used if at all deevelopment cororporation will have to apply in that way. What are your credentials Um I'm just annoyed and fed up and optimistic in this weird concoction. So is that enough? Yeah. N never built a city before, Siv man. No one's built a city before in Britain. So you know in living memory, right? In fact, there are a fewles who have? King Charles and Poundbury. Well, that's not a city. That's a town town. A best. And that's not to deride it. It's just not the same thing.'sly not as ambitious as. But there are actually the people who built Milton Keyes are still alive, very much, soough. And so there is a living memory and a connection with those because building began what in sort of the late sixties, if you want, early seventies, but it continued for many, many years. So actually that memory is around and all the lessons that go with it. and they have an amazing archive. which really sets out how to do things properly and then also Charles, possibly the king, but probably not also asks what's the vision beyond orest city Again, he address this a little bit in Thursday's episode, but you would like this to be a kind of an example that others seek to emulate, right ore a city. Yes of course yeah. Hence forore a city one. Yeah, you want you want fourore city two. Three, four, five and six before you' die. It leaves the door open. I'm not going, you know I'll cdertainly end my days both living in this city, dying in it probably, but also it'll still be you know, it' be on phase, whatever two of the kind of building thing He really thinks iss going to happen, Why is that not just an act of faith? Um I think we've crossed a threshold. Again, it comes back to planning permission. again, it's all about people's mindset. And what's the threshold, I? Getting a peace in the FFT coming radical, Britain's most exciting probles. That's. I wish if it was a threshold and that would be it. Well leo It's a sign, it's this, which is when people think they also start to realize, look strategically, yes, of course you've got trade offs and they're difficult, but something's got to be done and they see it too You know, I have these weird phone calls, but lots of people who object. they're very loud and noisy and of course We hear them, that you don't hear the people who want this to happen because they're quiet and they're scared and afraid. And that's my job is to actually lead people in that sense, right? That's actually weirdly my job. in all of this. so they feel comfortable to speak out and say, yeah, actually it is. But most of the conversations I have, a good thirty percent of people You know, I think, u up some professor of you know X, Y and Z and they'll go, this is amazing. This is the best thing I've ever heard. We should absolutely be doing this right now. orr senior civil servants, you know they disagree and they have things and they're not supposed to say stuff. but you know you can feel a bit of kind of o, this is very interesting right on that end and politicians will also say stuff like that. Give us a flavor of what people at the top of government politics or elsewhere saying of this They have lots of things to consider and lots on their plate. They get excited as anyone would by the thought that we could be bold, right? But of course it's also their job to consider the practical issues There's a bunch of mixed responses. Look, this is such a big idea. It's going to in the end draw quite heightened responses, both on the negative and the positive side So across government, at first, you know, obviously people were simply bemused, bewildered and wondered whether this is a kind of exercise in shifting the oververton window and whether we were serious But now I think they realize that we are serious and then they go, okay, well, hang on, let's consider this properly. And I think there's enough there. that we're winning people over day by day. I know that's the case. And the momentum's on your side. Yeah. Okay, Charles, thank you very much, Deave for that question. This is the final one from Alan Malady in Buckinghamshire Firstly, congratulations on actually proposing to do something about housing. It's one of the big issues that I think underpins many of the challenges in this country The housing stock in Britain is quite poor, as you know Modern estates are cramped and are littered with cars. How will you encourage enough people to shift their mindset and way of living to live in the way that you propose It's hard enough getting people to consider electric cars let alone a walking, cycling Public transport first city Thank you very much Alan, thank you very much, indeed. That's that you know, Alan. Do you know who that is? No That's someone who's really engaged with your ideas, isn't it? mean that's someone who is again, we mentioned this in Thursday's episode. You come on the BBC and we believe in fairness and accuracy. In Thursday's episode and in this episode, I've given you a hard time. There's also probably a lot of people out there who don't always get a hearing, but who maybe have read a piece in the Fancial Times about it, read your report, listened to this podcast and they think This is the antidote that we need to the doom and declinism all around. This is a kind of feeling of a big project. This is a country where we can do great things. And it sounds like Alan Malady, and just to be absolute transparent, I don't know Alan and Alan I'm very grateful for you're listening to Radical. This is someone who's really engaged with you idea. The idea these's engaged with is that Forest City, this new city you would to build would be a public first City in terms of transport, what's the vision of yours that he's talking about there? Yeah, we've already we've got a brilliant His name is James Sleeve, who's again, done all his work for free and he created one hundred I think twenty plus pages. I had to edit them all. So I know it intimately. But one of the bold things and radical things he said was like, look, you know, he lives in Milton Keynes. So he knows the issues with kind of a car first transport strategy very well He said two things. First of all, look, our goal is eighty percent of The modality should be that it's public transport in some way or another sustainable transport, right? So it's a bycling or walking or tram or train or metro, etcetera fine, that's quite a bold goal. so it's not car. But the other thing the other insight he has which is shared between all sort of planners of cities and transport plannersays look It's really difficult to shift people. they already live in a place, right? But as soon as you arrive in a new place, people are open and willing to adapt. So that's your answer to Alna's question, How do you encourage enough people to shift their minds way of living? If they come to a place where it is the way of living, then you don't have to persuade a transformation. it's what comes with the t. If you're not asking people to go start in their cars for the first five years and then say, oh now we built the tram. please use the tram. Well, they're not going to do it, Are they? They' got comfortable? and everyone else has got comfortable with using cars So it has to be there first, that infrastructure, which is the hard part That's how you shift people. And actually it's how you shift people just generally. New environments shift people's brains. literally they rewire their brains whether it's looking at nature or being in nature or, you know, living in a home that's either damp or terrible or it's air and light, etcetera, et cetera. You know, these have huge effects on me. How you walk and travel and shift and talk and communicate and sit in pubs or not, right and socialize, whether you see children It all has an effect on people's brains and how they understand themselves and the rest of the world and how productive or not they are, etcetera. New placeaces are a brilliant place to either get that horribly wrong as we have done in the past or massively right Right We've got fifty years of learning of how to build new places and we've got none of that put into practice yet That's what makes it so exciting Final thought and it's a selfish one for me. your blke B in L.A I Grew up I think I'm right say in East London. Grew up in Finchley. I Grew up in Finchley. Very boring East Finchley and then Finchy Central. Finchley Central which is in North London Margaret.' constituency, if I'm not mistaken. And then moved to East London How did building a new city in East Angalia become the great mission of your life? I'm very strracted. a lot of people say, oh you stand to make millions. If you're saying that A you don't stand to make millions, B, you're happy to forego all income, and C you're doing all this pro bono and you've got a family to feed Why is this the thing that Shiv Mank's life has become dedicated to Honestly, it's this weird mix of being hyper optimistic. and Matt Clifford iss probably the best exemplar of that, right? And a belief and a patriotic belief in Britain Which really, I think sometimes you have to be an immigrant to really appreciate what Britain is about, right? You see it from the outside in or in new ways and new light. And also because you travel, you realize actually other places aren't like Britain. It's quite unique in the world. and British people should feel that but then also mix with this deep well of sadness and