Founding Ethical Businesses in Modern Times

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK If you are currently overpaying on software to run your business Remember this number ten thousand That's the number of new businesses that join OdDu per month Join Odoo today at Odoo. com at OdWo. com. Sve more on what you need to get the job done right. rightight now, at Lowe's. Get fifteen percent off, select custom entry and interior doors. Plus, save eighty dollars under the Wallp twenty Volt Max two tool combo kit, now just one hundred sixty nine dollars. And at the Lowe's Pro desk, bring us your materials list and get a quote in minutes. Handwritten, a photo, or even a sticky note is all you need Keep your jobs moving faster and on budget at lows. Vllowid through sevenenty eight while supplies last. Selection varies by location Hello and welcome to your radical questions. This is where I put your questions to some of our magnificent And if I may say inspirational radical guests, it's your chance to engage very directly with them They are always super smart, interesting, influential and they've thought very hard about to make the world a better place. And that is definitely true of our very distinguished guests this week. and indeed on last Thursday's episode, I hope you heard it if you haven't go back and listen to it. it is with one of the co founders of Ben and Jerry's Ben Cohen, who until he came into the studio hadn't thought home. You make ice cream codes. Nominative determinis figure. Of course. it's wonderful to have you with us. Thank you so much. We've had a load of questions from our listeners. People who not only eat Benjerry's ice cream, but are hugely inspired by your approach to capitalism. And actually our first I was really hoping for a question from her. Our first listener question is from a former guest on this podcast There is a very, very successful British restaurant chain called Wahaka does does Mexican food And the founder of Wahaka, just to give you a littleitter backstory is a remarkable human being called Thomasina Myers Thomas Cinea Myers was, I think I'm right in saying winner of a British program called Master Chef. And after she won Master Chef, she set up this restaurant chain. And she came on radical and talked to us about the huge challenges that restaurants face in this country with massively rising costs But Oaaxaka is a very, very ethical company. It tries to keep to an absolute minimum waste, It tries to hire people from tough backgrounds, It tries to give people very little ultra processed food, and it does so in a very, very ethical spirit, which is why it is such a pleasure to have this question Thomas I Emers. Hi Ben it's Tommy Myyers here of Wahaka But here's a question for you. When we set up a Haka, we really focus on the bigger picture, an unusually high number of vegetarian dishes, sourcing from great small suppliers and using tech to help with low energy consumption, food waste recycling, etcer But unless your food is delicious None of that cuts the mustard How much of your success is down to ethics How much do your customers actually care about good practice I'd love to know what you think. C't wait to listen to the pod Thomas Nina, thank you so much for that brilliant brilliant question. So Thomas Neda's question, Ben is how much of your success is down to ethics How much do your customers actually care about good practice? You know, I think it's about fifty fifty. I think that the ice cream has to be great People are really into the ice cream and They're really into the social causes and ethics You know, it sometimes in the past, I've said that it's kind of like thirty, thirty, thirty that percent really loveo the company because of its social stance thirty percent Don't really care. They're indifferent And thirty percent don't really like the social stands, but the company continues to grow What we've noticed is that as the company takes more and more stands on political issues and how it uses its power, you know, for economic, social, racial justice we continue to sell more and more ice cream. Just you because you've been very successful in business, you made money doing it and you know how businesses grow. If you're advising a new restaurant chain, for instance, or a new I someone selling sneakers, trainers as we call them here Would you say that it's important to have that ethical stance where you risk thirty percent of people not liking your views. It's worth having that ethical starts right at the beginning Or can you only afford to have that ethical startance where thirty percent of people take against you once you've got a business that's really humming with the revenues coming in? No, I think you can do it at the very beginning Um, You know That's what Benon juries did and it seems to have worked. actuallyually I think it's I think it's harder if you add it later on It feels insincere or something. I don't know. It's not necessarily insincere basis of your business it's the idea of that thing about mission. that from the beginning, if your mission is about serving the needs of society along with serving great food You don't have to change It's the idea that You have a two part mission And you need to do both of them from the beginning. Yeah. Thomas Ceda, thank you so much for that. It's wonderful to have a question from a former guest in these special listener Q and A's. So thank you for that, Thomasina. This is another one for you, Ben. and this is from Sophie Harvey. Sophie, thank you so much for setndting this in.ophie says Hi Radical team. I love your thought provoking podcast. Thank you, Sophie. You can come again. Does Ben think companies can be left to fulfill their corporate responsibilities to society such as ediating effects of pollution, ensuring fair wages and treatment within their supply chain, or mitigating climate impacts and so on Do that require government regulation governments, how and what hope is there for this to work? Well, I think it's both. I think the reality is that government is the biggest lever that we've got And and so I think that Avocacy businesses advocating for the government to adopt policies that have those social benefits is a very important role for business to play. I mean you know, the reality is that Business is incredibly political You know, it's business that pays for dononations, campaign donations to politicians. It's business that pays for lobbyists that control our laws. It's business that controls the media And we of the peopleople that are looking to do ethical business need to use our voices to impact how how the government addresses these things? Do you welcome regulation then just to pick up on Sophie's question? Do you welcome regulation even if it's potentially harmful to your bottom line And would that be the case if you're a small company. The reason I ask that is that there's been a bit of a shift in public opinion in recent decades on matters of public health and a willingness of governments to regulate issues of public health. So for instance, when I was growing up in this country, people smokeed cigarettes in pubs, now there's a smoking ban. When Mike Bloomberg was the mayor of New York city of yourour birth, he introduced quite aggressive public health interventions. In this country we've got what's known as the suugar tax. Now a sugar tax is pretty bad foren and Jerry's because Ben and Jerry's cream has got sugar in it Do you welcome? public health regulation even if it is potentially harmful to Ben and Jerry's profets. Well, I think that, you know, government regulations create a level playing field So you know, if our company needs to pay a sugar tax and Every other ice cream company or dessert company needs to pay a sugar tax I don't think it hurts hurts our business. You know, the geniuses on the other side of the glass here, Ben, they are so high caliber Tom Smithard, who's producing todayays, it knows so much about British politics that he's just whispered in my ear, which is this is how this this show works. this out works on in the media guys. He's just whispered in my ear, Ice cream is not subject to sugar tax. What I wouldna know is whether or not Tom Smithard, who was so smart and so bright, knew that or he looked it up. Educated guests. Well Well so there's the issue of empty calories. Empty calories, ye. So I mean As far as desserts go, I think ice cream is one of your more nutritious desserts said the founder of Bet Jerry. Sophie, thank you so much for that question. This next one is from Emil Richman or Richman, For forgive me, I don't know the pronunciation whether you say it is a or, but Emil Richman in Liverpool. Hi, Vadicical My question for Ben Cohen is How would you square your business ethics with the fact that you produce products that are ultra processed foods which are linked to harms to health My thanks, bye. A A provocative question from Emil. We like provocative questions. How do you square your business ethics with the fact that you produce products that are UPF's ultra processed foods I hope that the dear listener is not suggesting that we no longer have ice cream. that we ban ice cream Uh You know, no, you're not supposed to replace three meals a day with ice cream. Only one meal a day U so what I'm saying is that You can eat it in moderation. You know, it's kind of the same thing as butter. hope that we're not suggesting that we have a world without butter So I don't see any conflict. But is it legitimate if because it's a growing concern in this country I mean, there's a lot of political conversation It's been an unfair a way to ask you this because it's a UK conversation. But there was a very influential and brilliant public doctor called Chris Van Talkan who wrote a book a few years ago called Ultra Process People And there was I don't know if it was him that came up with this, but there were a few people who said, if there's something that you see on the ingredients and an eight year old couldn't say it You know, mono, hydro saturated, whatever is this thing I always get confused about. Zanthem gum, which you never he basically you should try to avoid eating it. is Although one takes your point that Ben and Joe's is ice cream, ice cream is a treat. No one's saying, have ice cream instead of your high fiber diet. Ice cream is a treat that you have in moderation and rarely. Do you try to take measures at Ben and J's or have he done to try to minimize presence of things which could be harmful, albeit in the context that in the end itide scen Yeah, sure. you know, homemade ice cream. is way you'd make it at home and they don't throw in those ingredients that you can't pronounce. Yeah The things that make it a UPF a donrepcessed food, right? Right So Ben and Jerry has never used any of those strange ingredients. I mean, the reality is that if you want to have really good ice cream and you want to do it all natural. It's pretty easy There's a lot of cream and there's very little air and there's some egg yolks If you want to make ice cream that tastes creamy But it's not, it doesn't use much cream then you need to pump it up with all these other artificial ingredients. It's a lot more difficult to make You know, I guess that would be the ultra processed food version of ice cream. I make one with condensed milk and whipped cream. O ye. strawber one. I'm very very into it strawberry. You get the strawberry, put a bit ofon, a little bit of sugar and then condensed milk and whpped cream and then you freeze it. but you have to keep going back to it while it's in the freezer and stir it that the icles don't D't for I've got three daughters and they're very very into that. In fact, we're strawberry season now. I should probably do that this weekend. Emil, thank you for that question. We like provocative questions. I could. This final question is from Andrew Miller. who says, Hio, I'd like to know if Ben Cohen thinks a company like Ben and Jerry's could be founded today With outrage on social media, culture wars, the power of big supermarkets and cost pressures on us all, including business, does he think a similar idea or mission to Ben and Jerrys might just in the modern day be killed off early? I think you could definitely do it today. I mean I walk around run into some really great Homemade ice cream parlors I don't know if they have a social mission or not I mean, I think trying to help peoplee in poverty There aren't that many people that are against that. So if if you're if you open up a homemade ice cream shop and You're working to try to help people in poverty. You're working to try to, you know, change government policy and you're making great ice cream I think you do pretty good. Ben, it's such a pleasure chatting to you. It really is. Thank you so much for being so generous for your time. I know you've got a lot of people who want a bit of your time in London. And I imagine most people when they say thank you to you end up with something like thank you for the ice cream, but actually thank you more for teaching us something about the nature of capitalism. which I think is pretty radical and which it hass been an enormous honour to sit through. So thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. Well It's been great talking with you, Emmo