Capitalism and the Crisis of Relations

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And best of all No spreadsheets St managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo. com. Odo. com Hello and welcome to Y Radical Questions, where I put your questions to one of our radical guests My name is Eliza Philby, standing in for a mole this week. I'm an author and historian who specializes in generational change. This is your chance to engage directly with the super smart and interesting people we have on this podcast and ask them about their ideas for the future This week, I'm joined by Dr. Jillie Kay, who's an expert in feminist media and cultural studies at Loughborough University We've just been talking about the polarization of young women and the rise of what's called the fmosphere And if you haven't already heard the main podcast, where we talk about that in more detail, I do recommend you go and listen The first question is from Sally in Scarborough She says, men and women are polarizing Women are deciding that relationships with men are just too difficult Therefore, my question is, due to patriarchal systems which serve to punish women with unfair levels of disadvantage when it comes to domestic, career, reproductive, and emotional labor be done to get men to rebalance the situation. This is a biggie That's a great question. That's a really big yeah, great. And can let's begin by just asking you, do you think Sally's right? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I think there's definitely been some changes in the kind of the allocation of labour. But you know women are overwhelmingly kind of taking on ye, you know sometimes what's called like the double burden or the triple burden waged work, care work, care for elderly parents as well as children so on. So yes, absolutely. I mean, I suppose in some ways it's sort of simple just to kind of keep making this really clear that there is this divide and that if we do want to have a balanced and democratic society where men and women are participating and feeling rewarded and valued, then some of that labour has to be fairly divided And how can we do that apart from as men to do that? More workplaces have to give better paternity leave, recognise men caring for the elderly? What would you suggest? Yeah, absolutely. And I think yeah, so more actual resource put into it in terms of paternity leave and so on. But I think also like at a wider kind of social economic level For example, I mean, this goes into questions about social care and care for the elderly and about how poorly resourced that is, know how unless you've got a lot of money to pay for that, then that becomes very, very difficult to do. So I think you having the state, the welfare state providing helping out with like touch shouldering some of this burden, I mean that would help men and women. but particularly women. But I think its probably should be part of education, personal social education at school about the importance of care work, how important that you know how important that is to the functioning of households, how that allows people to then go out and work in the world and be in the public sphere really valuing that from a really young age. And many would say it's down to parents as well, you know, getet your son to load the dishwasher as much as your daughter. Absolutely. Right. Okay, thank you, Sany. The next question is from Julie who says Dr. Kay's observation of an online movement against men is important As fires are being fanned by big tech companies using algorithms to promote videos with negative sentiment to anyone who might be interested The question is how do we get through to both sexes addicted to these platforms deradicalize them And I know we've talked a bit about this, but I think it's important to just reflect on if there were any representatives from Big teech sat in your seat, they would push back against Julie and say that the algorithm perhaps is not working in the way that she describes What do you make of Julie's question I think it's a really important and really good question. Again, I think we have to go to the kind of what I would see is the root of the problem, which is the economic logics of the big tech platforms, which is to keep people online to keep engagement going, no matter what that engagement looks like. On the one hand, it goes back to that idea that you know there are certain things that individuals can do, you know really try to And some people give advice to do things like game your algorithm, actively seek out content which is not toxic, which is not harmful, so whatever that might be, keep fluffy animals or a hobby that you have, and train your algorithm so that you're seeing more and more of that stuff and less and less of the other stuff. That is really difficult to do. And what do you think? I mean, I'm just going to add to studion here Because you know there has been recent data that's suggesting that actually younger people are on social media less. Right. And actually it's older people that are on social media more. Yeah. And actually The real danger is not social media influence any longer. It's AI. And I just wonder what you think the evolution of the manosphere and the semosphere will be in the age of AI Well, I think that's such an interesting question. And I think y that that shift towards yes, that more kind of parasocial engagement with AI chatbots could be signal a kind of shift. but I mean That's also premised on a kind of logic of kind of addiction and keeping people keeping people on a platform And because these chatbots are going to be giving advice which is based on, like you say, all the information that already exists, which is problematic and has this kind of very problematic gender logic running through it. Again, I would say mindful ethical design of AI wherever possible so that it avoids reproducing bio essentialist ideas about gender and this idea that men and women are sort of fundamentally different and there's always going to be this eternal war of the sexes is important. So if it would be possible to train the AI to emphasize interependence, solidarity, shared experiences, empathy then that would be one thing. The other solution would be to really be mindful of your engagement with that content, to be mindful of its seductions and its power and to disengage with it as much as you can because I suppose What we should be doing, I think the whole logic of AI like as you say, is to reproduce what we already know, what's already been collected that really forecloses any possibility where we'd have a future where we could have like new ideas and new ways of seeing gender relations. So like I think really getting out of those Imaginaries that we've created around gender probably means disengaging from AI too. Thank you, Julie. Right, hereere's a question from Ellen. She says, How much are these manosphere themosphere social issues actually reflective of the rise of capitalism? That is an agenda of individual versus community and deeply struggling economies with rising poverty which are causing young people to feel insecure uncertain and disconnected So I think the role of capitalism is such an important point and I think you can kind of see what's going on in terms of these gender communities as almost like the kind of The logic of capitalism playing out through logics of individualism, competitiveness, self interest, trying to maximize one's place in the market. So those kind of ideas about often in the Mosphere and themisphere, people are talking about the sexual marketplace and what is your sexual market value. And so therefore just the next sort of follow on point then in your view, is the crisis relations between the sexes she a crisis of capitalism. Yes, I think so. absolutely. I think, you know, it's not that Not that misogyny and other problematic gender relations have never existed before capitalism, but they they've taken on a particular shape under capitalism ye is is this phase of capitalism this particular phase of capitalism And so it kind of goes back to, know that to really to have any kind of meaningful solution to this will be like a much more fundamental rethinking of the economy about who it works for I think what's really The way that capitalism plays a role here and the phaser of capitalism that we're in is that it's producing this a pervasive sense of resentment or resoniment. But many would say that you know women benefited extraordinarily well from capitalism, particularly in the last thirty years, in terms of education, in terms of employment, in terms of wage, in terms of You know, social standing, access to mortgages, I mean, I could go on. I mean, I think you can't deny that there have been absolute advantages that have come. I would say not just not from capitalism but from feminist struggle within a capitalist context. I mean, but then women are also subject to the same conditions as men. So even if certain women are doing slightly better within that system, overall that system is producing burnout, overwork, mental health crises. I mean, women are not immune from these things. I think this is what we often forget when we talk about this gender divide is that men are somehow the ones who are uniquely left behind and where women are racing ahead But really, you we're all living in the same world. We're living under the same capitalism. It's not surprising that women are going to be subjected to the same kinds of resentments, grievances sense of Even like ag grieved entitlement, you know this kind of idea that I was promised social mobility, I was promised I was promised social power. I'm not experiencing that It's not surprising to me that women then are also going to feel a sense of grievance Absolutely and actually just following on I think what Ellen's really getting at as well with her question is, you know she says an agenda of individual versus community Many would perhaps have from older generations may be reflecting on this conversation say, you know, I met my friends I socialised with people of a different gender at work church, in the community, in broader associational culture isn't a bigger problem here that We all Yes. But there is this sort of declining arenas in which the genders are Mixing Yes, Socialising. Exactly. And that goes back to the question y about capitalism and economics, the privatisation of public space, less and less access to these spaces where you might meet somebody or you know you might have connection that you weren't expecting to have with somebody. Those things are just those conditions are not in place for that to be able to happen in the same way. So I think it is like fundamentally about the design of public space It's about access to these communities. It's about know even things like youth clubs and youth centers and like publicly funded activities for boys and girls to take part in. even asking someone for the directions. Yeah, we don't even do that anymore. blame headphones. Right. Okay, next question, we have from Felisti. She says, in my opinion, there is currently a war on women in politics Why would I date a man who aligns his politics with those who see women as less than men It is no longer enough for men to be passively feminist They need to be actively anti sexist in their behaviour and in their politics The women I know have no desire to spend time with someone who is at best apathetic about politics. I think I think that beautifully sort of crystallizes is actually in the data, it was quite revealing that ort of New genen Feminists wouldouldn't even consider dating men who did not share their politics. Yeah. What's your reflections on Felicity's thoughts there I really sympathize with what Felicity saying there and that echoes a lot of what I hear from students of mine. and I totally understand that. And and if I was in that situation, I might really feel the same way. I suppose what I think is that collectively, if we're going to find a way out of this, then we do have to And again, there's all sorts of qualifications around this and nuances, but ultimately we have to like not give up on one another. And even if somebody it's really difficult because if somebody for example, is voting for a political party which fundamentally believes that you are a lesser human than a a white man, for example, that really it's a really difficult ask to say to somebody, but you know can you open your heart to this person? Can you try and you know see things from their point of view? I get that completely We have to see this as not again, it's not something which is innate and essential and can never be changed. So through democratic engagement, through deliberation, through social contact, people can change, And we have to I think just hold on to that possibility. And how's the algorithm do you think made it you know more likely now that people will not marry or not even date outside of their political philosophy or even silo. I think it's absolutely possible because it does have that kind of Is it the algorithm or is it actually politics become more polarizing? Because, you know, you could you could both. Yes