The Art of Serving Real Ale

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK If you are currently overpaying on software to run your business Remember this number ten thousand That's the number of new businesses that join Odu per month Join Odoo today at Odoo. com at OdWo. com. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done Hello and welcome to your Radical Questions. This is where I put your questions to one of our magnificent radical guests. And once again You've got very much involved taking the opportunity to engage with the inspirational, interesting, influential people that we have on this podcast And today, as you will know by now, we've got one of the country's most celebrated publicans, pub owners known for turning the guuinea Grill in Mayfair into one of the great institutions before co founding Devonshire in Soho, which has been named the UK's number one gastropub for twenty twenty six In our Thursday episode, which if you haven't heard, you must go back and listen to, we talked about the really radical changes happening in the world of pubs, the fact that two of them are closing every single day. and if that rate were to continue, big if. there will be none left in twenty fifty. That's probably not going to happen because some pubs are very, very successful and very, very loved. One of them is run by Assheen and he's got some pretty radical ideas on how you can fix The decline of pubs. If you haven'tard it yet, do go back and listen to that main podcast. but for now it's wonderful to have you here And Ashine, it's wonderful to have you here as well. You feeling ready for some radical questions? I am. I feel ready, but I don't know what the questions are going to be. So this is coming from the hip. Fan As usual me. Okay as usual we' got that more. We've got a lot of people who like you believe very strongly in the pub as an institution and we're going to hear from them now. The first question, thank you to Chris who has sent us this voice note from the sunny South cooast Hi Ehine and Amel My name is Chris Re. I work as a bartender with the Duke of Wellington in Shoream by Sea Down here on the south coast of England, not far from Brighton The owner of the Welly and founder of the Dark Star Brewery, Rob Jones died just a few weeks ago. His influence and love for the pub will be much missed and he leaves a great legacy behind him One of his wishes for the Welly was that it becomes a cooperative venture where the management and staff all have a vested interest in the day to day running of the pub. I would love to know what Rashim's thoughts are on pubs becoming cooperatives. Do you have any experience of this as a business model, and can you see a future in pubs being managed this way My thanks to you both and hey, pop in for a pint should you be down this way? There's always some live music and real ale to be had was Mr. Jones would say, live, ale and real music. All all the best guys, cheers Chris, thank you very much indeed, and sorry to hear Jones It's really interesting, Chris, if I may say that you raise this idea of a cooperative venture. I'll put your question to aachine in just a moment, but I will say that the whole idea of mutuals and cooperatives is something that actually got a lot of momentum fifteen years ago at the start of the coalition government. Well lot of people saying, is this something that could be the sort manifestation of the big society that could be spread across And of course, I guess if you're talking about pubs as social institutions which serve the community, there's a case for saying maybe the people that work there should as you say, Chris have a vested interest in the day to day running of the pub Chris's question Ashinine, do you have any experience this as a business model? Can you see a future in Ps being managed in this way First of all, thanks, Chris. I know the welly insure him. and I do. I'm going take him up on the offer of top person li music. To echo what I'm all said condolences on the loss of Rub titan of the industry and a top man Inerms of course Yeah, I found a Dark star top top top gaz. I think You know, the greatest pubs are all sort of weirdly owned by the regulors and stakeholders. People have a bit of them in their heart And you know, I like to think that about ours that the people who walk in and come in every day should have a any type of ownership and association and be recognized by us. And I think to take that to a higher level where you have a community who actually has a chunk of it in terms of ownership and direction is a really, really good way to maintain its timelessness and sustainability. So Chris, I wish you the very best to luck at that and I think it's a fabulous idea. It's interesting what you say about that sense of ownership, it's a bit like they kind of People who attend the pub have a kind of moral ownership. That maybe I like that. Roger Groton, the conservative philosopher this wonderful phrase who really believed in country pubs and spent a lot of time in them. including those that celebrated country pursuits like fox hunting, which he was a big fan of talked about how pubBs and I love the phrase, he said pUubs added to the moral savings of the community. That sense that you know you get savings which are material and financial, but you get moral savings and that institution of the round and that exchange of Hospitality and generosity. is my round,' my round, it's my round. I love that idea of adding to the moral savings of the community. Okay, there you go, Chris. ass a sort of indication and a thumbs up for the idea of cooperatives and mutuals. I should say that I think genuinely, I think that one of the things that Andy Burnham's government, if he does become the prrime Minister will look into is whether or not that cooperative model could be extended There are lots of famous cooperatives in not least the John Lewis group of course, or the John Lewis partners, I to say. Thank you, Chris. Here is a question from Ellie in Bradford Hi Amal, Hi Oheen. My question is about some of the stricter social customs in some more old fashioned pubs Things such as no big groups, no swearing Defitely no laptops and maybe a slight bit of hostility from the landlord Personally, I'm quite partial to it but I'm sure it must drive others away. I'd be interested if you think these customs are outdated or worth preserving Thank you. Fantastic question. It aight bit of hostility from the landlord. What do you think about those customs, the old customs, the sort of no big groups now swar and definitely no laptops? I think that each has its own merits and each should be looked at on its own some of the best ubs in the world ever have been run by fabulous characters and that still stands today And a lot of those characters are eccentric and they might have the occasional eccentric rule And I think having those adds colour, it adds something to talk about And, you know, it gives it gives stories to tell. And you know I don't particularly want to go into a pub where everybody's using the Wiifi on their laptop and staring at a screen. I think pubs are the opposite to that. So the one that we do have is a no laptops rule in the bar because it kind of takes the focus away from the other people. And I think that's a good rule I think no big groups. we wouldn't have any truck with that, but I can understand why some high street businesses might think that's a very, very good idea. For example, you know, groups of lads on a stag. you don't necessarily want them all coming in when everyone's trying to have a chat in a quiet pint and a scotch egg. So it's horses for courorses and I think every landlord of every pub be allowed to make his own rules and I think that is the British tradition and I would stick with it. H's what he did her Iules' some an amazing female Pablelo chann. some of the very best, by the way, I was with Sandra at the Golden Heart in Spitittlefields last week, she's going to be celebrating been there fifty years next year and she's somebody that would be wonderful on a podcast. Might ask her on, how do you feel about phones? I mean you don't have a no phones rule, but is it a little bit of kind of I think to put a rule in to stop people from using their phone for information is silly I think it's up to us to provide an atmosphere where we take the focus away from people using phones and I hope people don't use phones as much as they might in other places because they should be engaged with the staff and with the people around them. I think actual taking of loud phone calls on a phone in a public space is pretty antisocial and I remember the Guinea had a A very small bar and I had a very specific sign Please don't take mobile phone calls inside because there's nothing worse than somebody having a row with his wife while you're trying to Have a quiet point. Ellie, thank you so much for that voice. now. I think the slightly hostile landlord is an absolutely fundamental part of British history and I would fight for that person. like I'd like to mention and celebrate Norman Ballon who passed away last week ninety nine years old. He ran the coach and horses on Greek Street and soho from nineteen forty three up until his retirement In two thousand six at seventy nine years off and he still visits the pub every month up until a couple of weeks ago. May he rest in peace, the rudest landlord in history? Notoriously. Yes. Yes, yes.es abbsolutely. is in Soho. Yes,es, yes, the coach and horses Goodness knows if this person is still around and I can't remember his name, I feel terrible When I started out in newspapers, I worked at a great newspaper called The Independent. and we were based in the Docklands, two stops on the Dockland Light Railway on from Canary Wharf. There wass a place called South Keay Every Friday evening, sometimes the Thursday evenings well we'd go to a pub called the North Pole and the landlord in debt I forget your name, dear, sir. If you're listening, please remember this is said with affection He was brutal. You would say to him, I' sorry manatt, I think this beer' gone off. and he'd smit it and say, Just drink it, would you? Just effing, drink it, would you. And he had absolutely zero interest whatsoever in the opinions on his produce of the people in there. And you know what? we kept coming back.ing loved it That eccentricity is so attractive Lgend And it's nice to be contrary exactly radical. You must have worked in many a public things when things get a little bit laairry. How dod you decide when Lairry iss too lary Uh I've been a landlord for ty years I think the best lesson anyone ever taught me about any kind of conflict or unpleasantness is you have to take a step back and assess and understand the situation going in. And I think that's the best lesson. I think if you actually step back and see what's going on, you can pick it apart and work out a way to diffuse it And that's usually by speaking nicely to the right person. Much like parenting. Ellie, thank you very much indeed for that question. Thank Ellie. This is another question I've got loads of questions for you actually. We do couple more at least because I want to make sure that our listeners are heard This is a question that's come in from Dan. Hi Radicical. I'm Dan from Semerset A a question about the decline of pubs in the UK Do you think that the main cause of this decline going a shift. towards a culture, more focus on bars, etcera O has this decline in pubs caus this cultural shift Thank you Dan, thank you very much, indeed. It's a The public conversion of the chicken in an egg situation with pubs of bars Has the decline in pubs been driven by a shift of people moving towards bars people move towards bars because of the decline in pubs don't know if either is true. What I do know is that people have limited leisure time and people want to work out where the best place to go is for their leisure time. so where fifty years ago pubs were only competing with football, cricket and tennis. We're now competing with pererhaps cinema We're now competing with TV, with Netflix, with big sport, with concerts, with gigs, with bars, with different types of restaurant, with all sorts of different types of going out and also different types of staying in So I mean, that has fractionated it a little bit, but I do like to think that We're surviving a lot better than people think we are because good pubs are still doing well. What's the difference between a pub and a bar and what does a ub have that a bar doesn't? It's a really difficult question. I think it's a massive long spectrum Yeah then this becomes a three dimensional spectrum as well when you think about you know, wet pub against gastropub on the Y axis and then you think about pub and bar on an x axis. So a bar is kind of more trendy, bright lights, standing, more cocktails, more late night pub is more every day, all day, more towards pints and more to the drink. Democratic mix of drinkers, you've got gastro pub which is more towards food and wet pub which is more towards drink. So I think that's what you need to think about and in any place, whether it's a Weerspoons or an all bar one or a Green King pub or a young's pub or an independent, you should plot them on that sort of piece of paper rather than defining them as one. You're a very celebrated publican. Do you enjoy bars I do enjoy bars, I do. Do you enjoy cocktails? I'm not a cocktail drinker. I have a rule that I personally don't drink spirits It's just I have some funny res and that's one of mine for taste reasons Taste reasons and control reasons as well. I like drink pints thin are. low in alcohol because I know I can drink three or four without them making too much difference to me being drunk is not something I ever want to be. Really? Honestly, no, it's not I'm having pott of wine now and again when I'm on holiday or if I'm having a really nice meal But no, I'm a man who likes Three or four pints I didn't know that about you. Well I find it much more sociable. I think the idea of drinking a larger quantity of Lower alcohol is a much more sociable thing, particularly with friends over a period of time. And that's the point of Popees as well Is that almost a kind of moral argument for as citizens? everyveryone to sort support pubs you can sort of drink better. I'll be honest with you, love I love a spirit. I love spirit. I really, really you know obbviously for our younger listeners, it's very important to do this in a controlled environment and make sure you're legally able to do it. I love Rum, I love ginatonic, I love all those sorts of things. Is there a case for would it be helpful to pubs if we kind of all drank a bit more like you do, which is longer, weaker drinks I can't say for sure whether that's Tue, but favorite pub visitors are people who do that because they tend to be able to stay a bit longer, get more involved and become part of the furniture and character rather than just nipping in and out for a couple of liveners. No So you know, we want to we want to build relationships with the people who come in and quite often Ladies and gents who come in and just have a few pints in a chat and wander off again and then come back a few days later sort of builds really great relationships with us and add colour and stories to what we do. Next time I go into a pub, I'm going to think about What are I'm contributing to the wols, you know, what do you obvious you take something what do you give And if you drink a nice lower alcohol, longer drink. Maybe you're giving something to the pub in a way that you're not when you I love when that happens. you know, you get solo travelers or people who just come in to hide will do that. And you know hiding in pubs is really important. If you think about how traditional pubs all had frosted windows and those partitions and little noodles nies and crannies. They're so important to be able to go in there and you can, you know you can have a pint on your own or with a mate or you can meet somebody for a chat or you might just shoulder to shoulder with somebody very, very interesting. You might only come in for one pint and stay for three. I love seeing that. It happens all the time. And how do you feel about sport? being on you feel about. I think pubs who show sports and are really good at doing it are fantastic You know, we have an interest in the Mulor in Mayfair, which is shown in the World Cup now is packed for all of that It's not the way I've done it. I'm not a fan of having TV's in pubs, but that's purely a foable of mine and I make it work. I think the great thing about pubs is they're all different and that' always always think about the environment they're in and who they're looking after. And you know, if they're pubs that want to show cricket, golf, tennis, football long may they continue and be really good at it? Dan, thank you very much indeed for that question, much appreciated. This is another one and it's from Florence in Gorgeous, Beautiful Barry Staint Edmunds I was seen in a mole I think so much of what makes a good hospitality experience is the little touches For example, my mum and I went to a restaurant the other day and they lent her reading glasses to help read their menu My question is what are some small things that pub teams can implement that cost nothing but leave a lasting impression on guests I think Attention to detail is so important in what you see and what you feel and what you touch. And like simple things like making sure if someone sticks tune gum underneath the edge of the bar that we clean it every day, and making sure that there's nothing there that's annoying is the most important. but. You know, having a good welcome or being made to feel that You're generously welcomed into the world that we've created is the center of what we do. And sometimes you'll spot somebody in the corner who's not quite happy. and we have a way of knowing from people's faces that they're not as happy as they should be, We'll send someone over and go, everythingverything all right, mate Wh might be, o, well, I don't like the wine. And if that happens, I'll take the wine away and give them a really great glass of wine. no matter what. Also, you know, in terms of marketing I and making people feel comfortable the best marketing a public landlord can do is to buy someone a pint You know, you see somebody who's nice and having a bit of crack and just go, thoseose two are on me. J have a couple of beers. there you go. The reading glasses thing. we've got a box of reading glasses. Even if people are reading a book or they can't see their phone just. there you go. And like we buy them for like ninety nine pH and there's a box of them there Also, you know, phone chargers. Wh Why not have a million phone chargers behind the bar as well? Somebody wants to charge a phone We just give them the chargeer let and plug it in crrack on littleittle things like that. I'm thinking of O little bits and pieces like that. Oh yeah, we have In the restaurant, we have what's called a medicine cabinet, which is all the free bottles of fizz wine and dessert wine that suppliers give us. so they're not on the stock So anyone who's like got a complaint to her maybe their meal is a little bit late or they're not feeling one hundred percent. We'll just open the medicine cabinet, open a bottle, give them a little glass of something and we find that that will make people feel a little bit more welcome and a little bit more safe. and I love that that Florence told the story about the reading glasses because that's exactly the point. We want people to walk out with great stories to tell, which is exactly Florence did, and and thank you to her. And the thing that through our culture of food and the perfection and the TV programmes, the level of attention of detail that we have around gastronomy and food and cooking being a chef in this country, you have tried to bring something of that, a lot of that. As many, many Rublicans, you're not unique in this. M, many publicans do as well to making sure that in particular it's beer that goes through taps is exceptional quality. and there's actually a huge amount that people may not realize needs to go into trying to make sure that the thing in your bottle. We now have huge beer festivals and craft and you know there's a real wonderful culture around Britain and this country, but it's also about making sure that the drink that people drink when it's not spirits coming out of a bottle, but the drink that goes through your machines because they machines. is exceptional partarticularly trying not to stress the beer out, for instance, by making the journey quite short. That's really important. and we thought about that long and hard when we were doing it and that's not just for the stouts but also for the lagers and for the traditional British real els as well, which really I'm a huge fanatic for because it's the best way to drink beer and that's what I drink by the way. Well British beer. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I' on for stouts. Well, next time we go for a pint, I'm going to introduce you to a really good real Ele in a really good pub and I think I'm going to try and convert you. What makes a good real ale? Well, the thing about real ale is it's made in the same way for the last thousand years. It's a bit like artisan bread. You know, they mix proper ingredients together. The gas that's in the beer, the fizziness comes from the natural fermentation The publican needs to do the secondary fermentation in the cellar to clear it out make sure it's perfect for service. It's also pulled up to the bar using the old fashioned beer engine so it's the strength of the Barman's arm that pulls it up from from the cellar rather than, you know, a gas system. It's a really timeless, ancient, beautiful way to sell beer, and we're very proud to do it well.