Reflecting on the Journey and Future

This is Rai Lab. I'm Stn Wheeler, the execut ditor here at the show And I want to play you an episode today that we first put out in twenty seventeen And the reason is because I still think about this story all the time It was both a real challenge and a joy to work on. Because it's the story of a person who had to face off against literally the entire world and against our most ingrained ways of seeing the world and each other All just to be who they really are That person is named Alex High. In this episode, we meet sort of in the middle of that struggle. And as you'll hear in the show, it doesn't end at the end of this story. So I got a hold of Alex to find out what happened next If you stick around for the end, you'll hear Alex telling me about a whole second act to this story, which Honestly, I found Ver moving But first, I'm just going play you the original piece which is called gone to Ler. You l listening to radio lab ad from W NY Y Hey, I'm Jad Abomrad. I'm Rbert Kroritich, is radio Lab. Today we have the story of just how hard it can be to be who you actually are But it seems like the entire world is doing its best to make you who you actually Well I guess I could I mean this could be too many details, but the story starts for us with reporter David Conrad. So for me, it was back in late twenty fourteen I was living in Philadelphia as a grad student. And at the time, David was applying for jobs. And one of the jobs he was applying for was at a radio show that was doing the series about international women's issues. And so I had this on my mind and I was taking a bus to the university, and I just overheard somebody talking about their recent trip to Venice. And of course The classic tourist thing to do when you go to Venice is to take a ride on the canal boats, the gondolas. You know, go down the canal, mayaybe someone sings you a famous song. ery romantic Iny case The person sitting on the bus next to David, was telling their friend that they had taken a gondola ride with this first ever woman gondolier in Venice Yeah, And then we were like poking around and we realized like how how did this become a wee? No, Who are you? I'm Kristen. Kristen Clark, also a journalist from radio producer. And she and David are partners and collaborators. I mean, and this is was interesting. He's like We realize like how big a deal it is to be a female gondolier. This is like it' like a nine hundred year old tradition. Nine hundred years. Yeah. it's all men. Yeah, all men. and it's always past father son, father, son, father, son or like uncle, nephew down the line. So this is like this has been no ladies now, no ladies, then, no ladies ever. ladies in nine hundred years. Yeah Think about that for a second. almost a thousand years of all men, men, men, men, men, men and then one day You get a woman. Right. As a headline woman breaks through nine hundred year old glass ceiling. I thought that sounds like a good pitch Are you kidding? It sounds like God kissed you in the little. Exactly. sounded it sounded like the perfect empowerment story, I guess. Yeah. And so we're kind of just like Googling it and like it's all over the media. S seemed like every outlet from the Guardian to the New York Times to the Financial Times to the Cedar Rapids Gazette He made it all the way to Cedar raapids. Yeahah, to newspapers in Germany and China and Australia. and They all all the articles laid out the same basic story It was this Algerian woman from Germany named Alex Hay. showed up in Venice twenty years ago, got around a gondoliers association that never wanted to see a woman become a gondolier and eventually became the first ever female gondolier of Venice. The whole thing, of course, sparking this giant gender war That was sort of it Pretty much the headline and the picture was the story Many of the articles didn't actually have all that many quotes from Alex. And so for me, it sounded like a great simple opportunity to go back and tell a deeper story J like Who is this person? Why would somebody be so hell bent on getting into this club that just so clearly does not want them? Yeah So we emailed Alex. Just we're interested in your story. We're wondering if you might be willing to spend a few days with us this summer And I was hoping it would just be like, yes, I'm happy to meet with you for a couple hours And that would have been great. But we got an email back right away that said If you come do this story, you have to spend a week with me. A week. Yeah. And then there are all these questions about like who we were as journalists, what our purpose was and a bunch of demands. You have to stay in the city. You can't stay in like one of the suburbs in Marguary, even though it's cheaper, you have to be in the city. I want you to hear these sounds at this time. I have a vision for things. Did you have the sense that there was something a little odd? Yeah. And I mean, the message was definitely I want to tell a different story Did you have any idea what that meant? No idea We had that echoing I had that echoing in my head. So we flew to the Venice Airport, took a bus to city center. That was really fast. We stepped off the bus and you could smell the salt in the air from the Grand Canal and it was kind of raining a little bit. It was around midnight. We're kind of, you know getting our bearings, grabbing our bags We look up and across the parking lot, There's Alex standing under a lamp post just leaning against it with a cigarette. smmoke kind of curling up into the light of the street lamp. Short hair Dark. It was slicked back Did you think you were in a Felini movie Honestly, I didn't know what to think This person was legit under a lamp smoking So quick. Up close Alex looked taller than I expected. a strong build, kind of a face that was a little weathered, like someone who works outside all day on the water. I was finishing quite late. So when you called I just finished so Pfect. How was your flight? Is It was long. was you know we flew to Moscow first, which is. And since it was late We made a plan with Alex to meet up at five forty five PM the next day on the steps of La Finiche Opera House. Okay, Beautiful little Opera House. Yeah. I was rushing out to find you I left all the mess in the goola So anyway, the plan was to go out on a gondola ride, which was one of Alex's demands in that first email Okay. So we walk around the corner to where the gondolaas parked And o my God The boat was just like shining So the gonda was made for three people. Lwn, narrow, jet black. This was where the noble couple was sitting. Antique cushions, golden trim. and over there there was the servant sitting. Alex had had it about twelve years. It was already quite an old board when I got it. it had a name. This is called Pegaso. Pegasos. And you choose it? Yes, Yes, of course All right, so If you want to come in? little steps. So we climb into the boat. Perfect And Alex stands at the back holding the oar and we're down sitting in the lower seats, kind of just like pointing the microphone up. Alex, I know you were just telling us how annoying it is in people snap pictures. o can't I take photographs every once in a while? No You came here to study it first? No, that's not what I said. And it was pretty much immediately clear You came here. I mean that it was not going to be an easy interview You came when studied. When you studied? I know, I know, but I was wondering in the rowing. Right. You need to do a lot of practice Yeah, we had a notebook full of questions and things that we had pulled from all these articles we'd read. and that pretty quickly became useless But I was asking though you didn't come. And whenever I asked about being the first female gondolier, they're the first woman in nine hundred years to do this. Oh it's an old star. What's that? You can really read that everywhere on the net. I mean so you know such an over and over and over and over, it's all said already. Why we need to repeat things which already Done This is a very frequent journalism problem. Like you become boring to the person you're interviewing and you start flailing. Exactly. and we were. We were like, you don't have anything going wrong. Why are we here? What do you do? You know, we just thought maybe we should just be Quiet, probably We are about to make the nightest d We moved away from the tourist centers of the city and into these smaller canals. No And as we'd go around these tight turns Alex would sing out to let the other boats know that we were coming. So here we have a crossway. this is why I shout out my direction in order to avoid accidents because you cannot hear the gondel arriving You know, we go under these beautiful archways. has hidden gardens. You don't necessarily need eyes in order to appreciate a gondola tour. Every channel has a different sound. There are some channs you have a lot of birds singing This is a flying face So this is a beautiful entrance here I wanted to show you. At one point, I'd gond toa cut through this rectangle of light shining from an open kitchen door It was nice. I mean, this side of Venice was unexpected and really beautiful, but the whole time we were sitting on our noteepads and we were definitely quietly panicking. Well, you know that You know, I didn't know this at the time, but I thought there was some, you know, I was like, they're maybe you a little too young. I think Alex was testing us. It may be a little bit too They don't have enough experience maybe. that was my concern. But I like I like the enthusiasm and I like the There was an honesty which I liked Did you ever figure out what you were being sussed out for or what was going on there? For sure not on the boat, but we we actually made plans to go out to dinner that night. And considering how the boat ride went, we thought at this point we should return to square one and leave the recorder at home. R and just try and have a conversation. Anyway, we sit down outside and very few people are in the restaurant. We' the only table outside. They had to open. And when we got there too, we should say we met Alex's girlfriend, right? Yeah we're making, I think we're just kind of making small talk. Yeah, it turns out It turns out, Alex's girlfriend is a photographer and she'd done this photo essay of Alex And the photos are really striking Like one of them, Alex is just like drowning under the water. There's one that's just like Alex's back is to the camera. This ripped and muscular back. Yeah, like arms splayed like looking out the window over the city of Venice. Venice's lone defender. It was like so badass and like kind of like superhero style So we were just chatting about the photos and asking Alex's girlfriend like, you know, tell me a little bit more about what inspired you to take these photos and you know, like small talk friendly stuff. And she kind of was like, You know, is just it's so strange You know, we thought We thought it was so clear The photos were so like they emphasized every masculine quality on Alex's body. We in our artist statement, you know, we used all of the male forms in Italian. know like Louis, which means he instead of Leay, which means she. But everybody at the photo exhibit was like, Ohh must have been a typo or you made a mistake And she was like, which is funny because I'm Italian, so I should know And I was like Pronouns Louis, He, Alex She used he. He. Alex is a he Is Alex trans like Oh my gosh, Alex is a transgender man What did you What does that mean to you in that moment what I thought that meant Um was Alex was probably born in a body that he didn't identify with. Yeah, Mine was I didn't think transgender, I didn't think I thought Alex is a guy, off course, Alex is a guy. Really? Yeah, I wasn't surprised wereere you surprised? I wasn't surprised I was't I'm noting that the pron I would say that like flipping into he, not a thing Like, like it was like, Alex is Alex is a he. Alex is he He is sitting at the table with us. Alex and his girlfriend very quickly it was like him. I'm looking at him. And then I start thinking about the story that we had come here to tell that was about all of the women things that she had done, her, her, her, her woman, hero, heroine, first female in nine hundred years, interternational symbol of female power. You start thinking about that and it's like Those things are really hard to square in your head This real person is alsoso these stories and how did that happen? What has it been like for twenty years to be inside of that story when you're actually a man tells his side of the story, which is what you would expect at all Hey, I'm Jad Abomrood. I'm Robert Krrowich. This is radio Lab. and today we're telling the story of Alex Hay, the first ever female gondolier someomeone who seemingly broke through this nine hundred year old gender barrier and made headlines all over the world along the way, except Turns out, Alex is in a woman And after who knows how many articles about Alex? This is the first time that he's telling his story. to the public and so we should probably stop for a second and talk about pronouns because this is really important for many transgender people. In moments when Alex was publicly understood as a woman and was getting international press for it We've decided with Alex's permission to only use his name or his title of first female gondolier While some of the people interviewed for the story were unaware that Alex is transgender and do use female pronouns or do refer to him as a woman, we When we're talking about them, we will only use male pronouns So after that dinner, we made plans for the next day on his motorbat and he would just take us to a quiet spot and we would Talk. What' the agreement? On the water. On the water Chucked up. Stop it pasta E La Okay. And how does that begin? A lot of false starts. , I don't know Maybe I can ask Has anyone ever asked you what gender pronoun you prefer? Noope, never N have. ever So after getting some of the basics out of the way, Alex kind of started at the beginning Well, you know, it's a long story I was born transgender This is in Germany. Alex tells us he was born with a female body, but at a pretty early age knew himself to be a little boy. I knew already before I went to school W three years, I was standing on the toilet to bee inside. Alex says that you know for him, you know he had the sense even when he was three that there should just be something on his body that wasn't there. Yeah, ye. No, I was praying for a penis every night My parents knew about it. His parents were actually both doctors. They knew, but they were not supportive You know, I heard them, you know, they were talking about all the weird stuff I did, how he wouldd rip the arms off of his barbies, Coring them like you know with a black pencil and like destroying them orr the way Alex dressed himself. When there was a swimming lesson in the school, I was there only with little pens, so you call them a base suit for four boys. you know, I was of course very aggressive as a child. lot of fights. you know, I got quite I was quite violent as a kid. So now I can laugh about this, but you know, it was a drama at home. It was a drama. The constant try of my mother to this behaviour out of me Alex is pretty early on his parents basically gave up on him. They ignored me as much as they could, which was, you know, in a way, it was saving me because I could wear whatever I wanted do whatever I wanted. And then when Alex was ten, A little brother was born and That was a shock That was a terrible shock because Basically, it confirmed My mother wanted desesperately Boy But she didn't accept me as her son That's what it was. Alex said basically, you know, that was the first time he saw what like It should look like basically when a parent loves their kid So when he was fifteen He ran away from home. I escaped to Hamburk and in Hamburk you have a huge district called Samp Pauli, where they have all the prostitutes and all the bad things and that's exactly where I went. Some people kind of took him under their wing, got a job, kind of figured out how to take care of himself. I got lucky. But I know also very unlucky stories, but I got lucky Did he ever think about transitioning to a male body He says he thought about it at one point, but in the eighties, when I was fifteen, the opportunities he had to become a man were very, very In particular, if you wanted to go down the road of surgery, what I can remember for my family was Constant talks about how operations went wrong, how they went wrong and what went wrong. And so for me to go in a hospital to do an operation, this is not going to happen And of course, many transgender people don't end up having surgery But anyway, after Homburg, at some point, Alex fell into filmmaking and ended up in San Francisco working in the film industry And so nineteen eighty six He got involved in a production that sent him abroad to go scope out locations for a film that was going be shot in Venice. So shows up in Venice in eighteen ninety six. How old is he around at this point? twenty nine, I think. Oh, so he's older. He's not a kid at this point. Originally, he's just supposed to stay a few days. of just enough time to do some research and scope things out. but somewhere along the way He sees these guys rowing their boats down the canal and for reasons he can't entirely explain He's just Tfixed I was fascinated by this kind of and I was fascinated by the rowing style that you roowed forward. so you actually see you where you're going. So I was just fascinated and I just wanted to try it out myself Eventually Alex ends up actually meeting a gondolier and asks like, Do you think I could do this and He actually ended up down at the gondola station as an apprentice they ask you did they ask you why you wanted to study? I remember the first day I was introduced by the boss of the group. Okay, so this is Alex. She's going to be our mascot because they saw Alex as a woman. and there had never been a woman gondolier. Most of them thought For sure This was like kind of a joke. There was a very old one whoul later said now we have a gondolier with tits For the first several months. Alex says he basically just picked up after the guys. You were the bus boy for everybody. so you needed to clean their boats and to ship out the water T, twenty times He says it's really backbreaking, grueling work. For somebody that everybody everybody sees as a woman, you'd think this would be like the worst place on earth. But you know, actually first those first months in the city just kind of with the boys, dirty jokes. I sa this is great Alex knew all the gondoliers' nicknames, walked and talked and acted like them, and cursed in the same way.. He says he felt like he was part of this tradition, of you know learning from these old guys who were mentors to him. J really like mayaybe the best time of my life It was it was like it was home And then the trouble began It started with a journalist This is reporter Conuelo Turin. We met in a noisy cafe. started in nineteen ninety six withith a translator. Cuo was a collaborator of. She was a cub reporter in Venice, working for a very politically progressive newspaper and she was out lookingoo for her big story. And she runs into her how do they encounter each other? Ao, Alex. Consuelo saw Alex at one of the gondolier stations and she was like Whoa. It's obviously this struck her attention. It looked to her like there was this woman rowing among men and like seeming to kind of blend right in was attracted by this vision, unusual vision for Venice. So she observed her She said I camped out for like a whole morning and basically just watched Alex's behavior. Alex didn't want to talk. told her I can't talk about it. I told her basically, I'm just a student. They're teaching me. Don't make this into a thing. Cuela said, listen, I recognize that you don't want to talk to me, that you're apprehensive and that this might be difficult. And I get that this might even damage your reputation with the other gondoliers This is an important story You're a pioneer. I can't ignore you. And so Conuela said, There are two options. I'm going to write the story no matter what. so you can either talk to me and we can do the story together or I can write what I think That was he offer you know, I said it can't go out now. And she said, it will. at well. And why wasn't Consuelo persuaded that she should wait Well, there were journalists coming from all over the place, you I think the story was gonna to get out there and somebody was going to write it. And Alex never sort of stopped and was like, listen, Cuelo or whoever. Let me just tell you the real story The way out of this is to speak and yet he stays quiet. Right. Do you have a sense why? I mean, so just to kind of give some data points that might be helpful in understanding kind of where we were. So we're talking nineteen ninety seven Just to give you like a corollary thing, where we were in our discourse around LGBT issues was like Ellen DeGeneres, I think that year. This is so hard, but I came out on her show I think I've realized that I am can't even say a word Why can't I say the word? And like shortly after it was canceled Caitln Jenner, just a few years ago. L we didn't even really have a grip on what transgender was. That wasn't a conversation that we were having in public. Can you imagine what it would be like to be like, guysys, guys, guys, don't worry though. I'm actually a man. That wouldn't have gone over so well with the dudes at the gondola station Yeah So what ended up happening after Conzuelo and Alex had the showdown about the article? Well, a couple days later, Alex was on the way to the Gndola station. I found it in the newewspaper The headline adadonaide condoliere A woman is challenging the gondoliers. So I was like, o o my God be held. So it's in the newspaper stand. Alex shows up at the gondolier station and of course there is a big hello. A big unfriendly hello. Yeah, just like a o hello, gondolaliera. those boys they got really, really angry. They were like We do everything to teach you well. And you know now you're challenging us. Alex says a lot of the gondaliers stopped talking to him. They wouldn't even let him wash their boats. And then you know, then of course then they were the ones who said I told you in the beginning I told you she was just blab to the press. The woman is not a good thing on the whole thing. you know, what's like this little stone becoming like a huge Huge thing And by the way, this is right, this is coming right before Alex is about to take the very first exam There's actually a series of exams and it gets a little complicated, but eventually anybody who wants to be a gondolier has to take this rowing test. And by all accounts, Alex was Good. Like we talked to the guy who was the head of the Gndoliers Association at that time. Alex A This guy Fulvio Scarpo was like Ax for me. is more good the other main gandleers And this is the head of the guild. Yeah. And we also talk to this legendary rower named Franco Crea. And he was also like Alex is better than most of the guys. So anyway, Alex takes the test. And I failed the exam. which wouldn't have been That by itself wouldn't have been such a big deal because a whole bunch of people fail the first exam. But the thing was There was a feeling that like something deeply unfair was happening. According to Consuelo, a lot of people started to think maybe the fix was in. because there were other boys there who failed, who were better than other boys who did not fail. Alex says suspiciously pretty much all the people that passed were sons of gondoliers or from gondolier families. Be they have had the right last name So then I got angry. I got a lawyer. Alex thought this was going to bring attention to how corrupt the license practice is, how corrupt this association is. I wanted that the exam is repeated for everybody. And this lawyer was negotiating and the Gndoliers association was like If we let everyone retake the test, that will basically be admitting that we favor certain families over other families. That was exactly what I wanted, but it's not what they wanted. They said, we don't want the bad press of this But then, and this is another moment according to Alex where his story just gets hijacked. My lawyer negotiated without my permission. According to Alex, without telling him, the lawyer together with the Gondoliers Association dug up this old law that says, because Alex is a woman, I mean, he's not, he's a man, but they thought he was a woman. this laways As a woman, he had the right to take the test again this time with women judges in the boat When she came back and said, okay, here's what we're going to do Do you remember what you said? I was best I was very upset. That was not what I wanted. It nothing to do with men or women Do you think she? Was your champion because she identified with you? Yeah, for sure. it was not my story. It's her story Unfortunately for Alex, as soon as the lawyer did that It became everyone's story. Oh yeah. because The press. whereere when was it the next two months, every paper in town was writing about it. Spended by a gondolier's examination. Alexand The gondola ban from Forea. The story went global. German catches a crrad in hery to become Dennish's first woman gondi. Sexist sink, first female gondolier. Girl gondolier fights a male tradition. Fed gondolier blames Chauvinism And then things escalate into a full blown gender battle The gondoliers are of course super pissed because of all this press that they're getting. We talked to a couple of key like gondolier guys. Alexandra, no I think they have some thoughts and feelings about him. She had to pass a test didn't It is a disaster. Alexays at one point things got so bad that one of them was saying you know wait for you in a small little street with a knife kill you are' going So I grabbed the guy and I said, Where's your knife? I'm here? Get it out You know Do it That was one episode. many others So on the one side, Alex said he has gondoliers wanting to knife him On the other, it was terrible because then feminism kicked in. Alex said he had all these women rushing in to save him Wait,ere do you want me to li? Because they thought he was a sheade. We'd read in the paper that she had tried to take the test and had failed and had called foul saying that the Venetians were mean and know sexist and wouldn't let women become gondoliers. This is Jane Caparerell. She was active in the community of Venetian women rowers at the time. What women, by the way? there weren't any Well, so there weren't any women gondoliers at that time, but there's a whole community of female rowers teams and they race. I've been doing Venetian rowing for over twenty years. And being a female rower in Venice? It was very difficult. Eleana, this woman rower I was talking to. Last week I was with my rowing partner. It was like, I'm routinely when I'm out on the water. like old men yell at me and say Hey, what you doing? return back home in the kitchen, cooking or cleaning your house. Why are you here? Regina, you're just a contonal You're just a side dish. They both told me when it comes to racing, there's a big discrepancy in the prize money. The men are getting like four times as much prize money as the women. We are now trying to convince the city of Venice who gives prizes We are Men. We are not less than them. We are all these women who have been you know, incrementally busting their ass to try to be taken seriously in the sport. We are here. We can do this. And when they saw this press about Alex fighting the gondoliers, They reached out. I sent one of the other conidiaters down to speak to her. You know, come to our club and come and work with us and help us out, help us teach people, You've got your back. But she wasn't interested. No, of course not Because Alex, there are two problems. First of all, you cannot compare the gondolier rowers with the racing rowers. There are two different styles of rowing. and second of all, the sense I got was that it was kind of like, I don't want to row with you. You guys all wear matching white skirts. like not my thing. So I remember there was a lot of resentment for a woman. How cant you be one of us in this battle for equality. Some people they see me and then they are convinced that I'm a feminist, that I am one of them, and I'm not. And all of this comes to a head in October of two thousand four Alex Sessor retake the test, and this time with Champion Women Rowers in the boat Judging him, there was a lot of pressure Everything about this test is supposed to be a secret. The location of the test, the path that Alex is going row, I've had no clue where we're gonna go. But suspiciously, as Alex stepped into the boat He noticed that there was a huge crout lined up all the way down the canal. Condaliers and their friends and they're shouting and yelling. People were screaming all kinds of swear worlds and kind of go home cannot imagine the hat You had female rowers in the boat glaring at him. There's press lined up along the entire way. Plus the tourists plus everybody. It was full of people. I felt like I'm in a ring I tried to block it all out because I needed to do an exam But I wanted to do a good performance But I wasn't able It was hell one of the worst worst days of my entire life really don't I don't wish that to nobody. That was real hell Hey, I'm Jad Ab Ron. I' Rbert Coolitich. this is radio Lab. We returned now to a story from Kristine Clark and David Conrad about Alex Hay transgender man who became somehow the first female gondoliera in nine hundred and twenty three years and thus an international feminist hero sensation. And so we now find Alex being painted by everybody in town in colors that he doesn't particularly agree with. Yeah, And what's interesting, according to Christis is just how easy it is to do that to someone. Okay. so I'll tell you, as we were doing the interviewing and the reporting, like I'm feeling like I have a good grip on Alex's story. I'm feeling like, oh man, I know what it feels like to be inside of a narrative that feels really icky. And so I feel like I'm kind of getting it and I'm like understanding the full Alex and like it's about all of these other things that have nothing to do with gender. So Alex's story isn't about gender at all And for me, that made sense because I was like, in my life, gender has been a box. L even when you're in right even when you're in the right box, gender is a box and it can feel shitty to be in that box. And so I was like, yeah, let's bust open those boxes together. We're show you we're gonna show people who you are, Alex. But then We would have these moments where I would be like, Hmm, wait a second Like one night when we were in Venice, we were like trying to park our boat on the way to a restaurant and like this guy is like trying to parallel park his boat and Alex is kind of sitting there like chuckling at him. And you can hear like David chuckling in the background. And so the two of them are like you know joking about it. and then Alex says like he drives like a woman Like an old lady And I was like, you know, and we kind of rolled my eyes at it. But then later at the dinner He was like, he was like You know, though, like I don't really think that like a real woman could do this job And you was like all like macho about it. I remember you were shocked that I was saying such a macho thing. I remember that. No of course, you are very right. A women can do everything. D This job This is going to be very tough because its It's a real cruel community Emians is very cruel and rough. But when you said but when you said that, I got so I was like, I was so frustrated. And it was because I think I was attached to the idea of like it being equal, you know I mean, I was I was I mean was just like super confused. like I don't know. I just I just wanted to know anything. ex Not tell me what you want to. I don't I'll admit in the moment, I asked a kind of clumsy question. Do you feel but it was just because you seem to be almost like prodding me, you know, having fun and winking at David? do you feel like you're fundamentally on a different came from me Oh Okay U I am on David's team But you can't see that because you identify with me. But that is not I can' help that How can I explain it to you? Let's put it this way. When I'm in a group of women For example, and they start to talk I feel uncomfortable The chat things they have, I call it chicken chat is not really my cup of tea. you know? I like it. It can amuse me The minute they think that I am one of them, it doesn't amuse me anymore and I feel uncomfortable. I don't I'm I'm a little alien there because they think I am one of them and I'm not. When I'm with the boys I't feel comfortable If it is a nice group of boys, which I like, then we have the same type of humor and, you know, the same stupid jokes about women For Alex, I think what was really striking is that whatever it is that makes him feel comfortable being seen as a man, but not as a woman, it runs very deep. For me, there is a difference between men and women. notot everybody or even every transgender person would feel this way. But the way that he sees it, if there were no differences There would be no wish to do transition and there would be no transsexuality and things like that if it would be the same isn't it? Yeah So you were seeing him as like a gender doesn't matter kind of icon and he was saying actually it does matter Yeah M can I just ask a simpler question? when? When does he actually become the first female gondolera Well so Alex couldn't get one of these four hundred or so special gondoliers licenses because he failed the test. But in two thousand five I open up my own business. He figured out that If he partners up with businesses in town like hotels, he can actually row for them privately. At the time, I was looking at all the ls and I found that it was possible to open up my own business without having a license. so I did. And so for years, he was just kind of doing this quietly. Alexandra, she's not a gumleier. She's not a gomleier.. She works for a hotel Some of the gondoliers began to notice that Alex was rowing passengers without a license. And of course, they didn't like it. She didn't pass a test. sayaying like, you can't do that. She's not part of our team. Do not have a driver's license. You have to be a member of this organization. You have to have a specific license in order to practice. What we can say. She's not a Gndola driver. I got some threats, verbal threats damaging the gondolas and things like that. All kinds of stupid little buoy shit So when they understood they cannot threaten me this way, then they pressurered city haall to change the load. City Hk basically said, like you can't you can't row a gondola with tourists in it with without a license. And the law passed and was signed and it became the real law. Yeah. And so one day, Alex is out on his boat and he just gets pulled over. Basically he is told you're breaking this new law. and soul I wanted to defend myself. So we went on trial in court. It was Alex, his one lawyer, City hall and the Gndoliers Association. There are four lawyers. fourour lawyers I thought, you know, this is a lost case any already But City Hall Lost City Hall fights back. case goes to the highest court in the land They're lost again in front of a court Yeah with me, a little stranger from out of nowhere Technically, the decision just said, hotels can provide for their customers the way that they need to. So if they want to hire a chauffeur who happens to row in a gondola, they can do that But what that actually meant was that now for the first time Alex be considered a gondolier That was a huge deal, massive. Along the canals, a woman paddles against the Tes. New York Times came in. Woman takes on Venice goondola cartel. Chicago Tbon came in. F female gondola rock the boat. Female Lemon came in. So this is where we get all of those articles we read before we came to Venice. Ven The story went all over the world And and every single one The message was the same We have our first woman gondolier That was something it was unstoppable. I could not go in there and say excuse me You know, I'm not really, you know identifying It was gone. Okay. It was done Alex at this point in two thousand seven doesn't have any other income except for being able to market himself through hotels and eventually online. And so, of course, I need to have a website. People are actively seeking out this person who has broken the gender barrier and become the first female gondolier in Venice. so it would have been stupid to try to go against all this was already written So Alex decides to make his email, his Facebook page, and his website Frima Gandaliera The first female gondolier I'm wondering if creating a website with that name Did that feel like you taking control of that narrative? Or was that narrative taking control of your decision on that website? It's nothing to do with what I want. It's a label You know, I cannot change a label who has, you know, twenty years of history. Shut up Alex told us he was talking to his therapist one day at this transgender center they have near Venice. And she said, you are like in a cage This is like a cage for you. You can't get really out of this It's a difficult situation It's a very difficult situation. So Tired. L about dast O the itle Tenty M dollars By the time we met Alex, he'd been living almost ten years like this, you know, just kind of between these two stories, at night, out to his close friends, but by day giving these tours as the first female gondolier in Venice. And every few months, every new tourist season, these headlines would just regenerate, firstirst female gondolier, first female gondolier, first female go. And when we left Venice, that's kind of where we left him kind of hanging in the middle of that And the impression that we got is Maybe that's just gonna be how it always is for him. G then Inite a why we didn't see each other.. Fast forward, six months We get an email from Alex He says he's in San Francisco U think things have been happening in your life He had some news. Well, you know, I remember when we were sitting when we were last talking in Venice and we were sitting on the terrace, I remember that I was already in I knew there was something coming But I wasn't sure what it was It was a very difficult year U I was kind of depressed which, you know, I'm not I'm not a depressed person usually And so I was hanging out I was not moving much. I was hanging out on my sofa and I was trying to think And I was More and more every day I was unhappy about people telling me that I was a she and not a he. I don't know why. I got completely intolerant. Before I was like, I don't care what they say to me. I care that they're nice And now I was just like, I can't hear this anymore.' so wrong. Alex was about to turn fifty at this point And it turns out that part of what was happening was that he was beginning to go through the early stages of Menopause I was Hot I was tired, sweat breaking out for nothing After fighting with the gondoliers, fighting with the feminists, this It was like a final insult. So I have this idea that hormes might help with how I feel, I start to take the The testone that was on the seventh of November which after six hours, I get the first smile on my face in neearly a year Like, you know, ft felt good and the mood swings they stopp So I'm Now I'm like I knew me because I was looking in the mirror every a day and I was like, who's this monster he decided to fly to San Francisco, meet with a doctor Some people wait like two years or three years before they start to do a surgery I wanted to do it now because for me it was something like now or never. so now I'm here in San Francisco. I've had top surgery on the twenty fourth That's about Yeah, four days ago And u I wanted to start this year with a budody which is confirming me People see me as the first woman Gonden that means something for many people. It's not fair to them. so you know I need to I needed to say something So I changed on the Facebook side, I changed the name Now it's Alex Eondlatus And I did already a statement on my old website. There is a statement. It says Dear guests, colleagues and friends. After holding myself back for three decades, it's time for me to depart from my wrong body I am not changing who I am I am becoming who I am And is he back in Venice now? Yeah. And you any sense of what that's gonna to mean for his job or his life I have no idea I have no clue. I don't know how my voice is going to be in a month it should drop. I have no idea how my face is going look and my body is going look in three years, three years from now. We all leave it as a surprise. Oh own. Bill What? No idea That's scary Oh The. What Thanks to reporters Kristen Clark and David Conrad. also thanks to Alexis Ugrer and Summer And of course, a huge thanks to Alex for sharing a very difficult story with us Are you worried about what the responses might be to it? Oh my God, David, I'm a warrior. You think this is boring me? I've been to worse, I guess. I remember like when we were sitting out on the balcony, you had said something like, I don't want to do another battle. Exactly. I don't want to do another battle, but if I have to, I will because I hope that I can at least help one person out there Dute it did was E can turn d by from Hey there Sorn here again. So we released that episode in twenty seventeen. Now of course, it's twenty twenty six. And when we last heard from Alex, we left him Really in the middle of a moment of change And in the years since, we didn't hear much from him, but I have found myself thinking about him. all the time. And I know other people on the staff have too And then we heard that he'd written a book, which is actually being released here in the U.S. today, the day this episode comes out, which is june twenty sixth. And we're going to get to that in a second. But we didn't really know anything about how his transition went for him professionally and personally. So I decided the best thing I should do is just get a hold of them. Yes Nine years's been. I don't know where to begin, but maybe Exactly, that's the problem because it's nine years and a lot of things happened. Turns out Alex has been through this sort of Honestly, mythic journey starting where we left off in twenty seventeen justust as he's getting back to Venice after his time in San Francisco He's starting a physical transformation, but it was at the very beginning and we weren't sure how that would affect his business. business was really wonderful from twenty seventeen until twenty nineteen I really have had a blast in that period. It was a lot of fun. I've had a lot of fun at work. I think I read that you were having like celebrity people wanted to come ride your boat Yes, well, I've f that before, but then, you know, also because I felt so comfortable finally. in my body is not to underestimate How that is pushing you forward in a very happy spot And so I was in a very good place. And it was the body matching comfort level, like was that immediate or did it take time? Well, it takes time. That's why you have this period which is called puberty, where you basically have a second one that is demanding. you know, obviously when you have a certain age, you do not want to get silly anymore do silly stuff and think silly things. but that is exactly what happens because you need to basically reconsider everything once more. From the colors you like, from the food you like, from Y sexuality, you know, everything That's kind of amazing Yeah, its it's a pretty amazing period of time What's happening at the same time to your relationships? How is it affecting the way you were relating to other people? I remember one gondolier you know passing by and saying, Hey, Alex, you need to Cure this cold you have. I mean, you have this for weeks now, you need to cure the cold. Because of the voice. Because of the voice. Yeah. And I was cracking up because that was very funny I mean, do most people know what you're doing or nobody even know? When nobody really knew because I didn't tell anybody. know I was just letting people guess. But then you know, obviously once somebody understood it The whole city through it you know, it was like a wildfire And so then I got, you know funny questions, very how you call it, questions you don't want to hear and you don't want to answer to it. But as I was the only out transgender at the time, obviously, you know, people asked me all kinds of questions about it. Is it an awkward but friendly curiosity or sort of like No, its dis perfect. Okay Yes. Unfortunately the time. M of the time. Obviously there were also some nice questions and true interests, but that was maybe five percent of it. The rest was being very interested in a very pervert way. I find myself thinking back and being very interested in your relationship to the other Gone the Lers, like before everything went bad with the test and the women rowers and the lawsuits, that group of men, you described it as a very happy community, a happy home, a happy place and it was obviously felt like something that got taken from you But I don't know if there were parts of it that you kept. question now becomes a little bit complicated. I was very surprised. doeses it work and how does it work? and is it longer than what I have and so on and so forth. So you know That was quite interesting Biness is okay. peopleeople are being perverts. but the business is wonderful The business couldn't have been better, really couldn't So I was really on my way up to the very top And then I got stopped by the police in the eighteenth of October in twenty nineteen And I thought it was like a normal procedure of controlling something or whatnot But then I understood that they want to Confescaped the gondola But they didn't told me why. So that's what happened. My gondlog got taken away from me And that for me was like if you are a musician You do not take the instrument away But it was not only the instrument they were taking away, they were taking away the music as well. Yeah. and the right to play on another instrument It was like There was nothing, all of a sudden, zero. This was Pegasus. That was Pegasus, yes. He is now property of the state of Italy since twenty nineteen Like why why did this happen I didn't know at the time what was happening why it was happening you weren't able to confirm what exactly went down with Alex's boat, but acccording to Alex. I found out years later. Years later, I found out that there was no reason whatsoever to do this except for transphobia. Just discrimination and hate. Exactly Except and So, you know, I needed to leave because the situation became harsh. Be City Hall allowed the request of the Gonalas Association and executed the confiscation. of the gondola The association felt very Grab. you know they were proudes emboldened in you. Yes, exactly. It was becoming an unelievable situation because everywhere I was going by foot or by motorboard I got screamed at and pointed on And my friends were getting concerned that this may be going to escalate into physical violence. I mean, as we know, from so many examples, it's a very real threat Right. I wasn't really afraid of them being physical violent because they' such cowards. However It was for me unbearable to be in Venice and not capable of working. And so you know, this was like just a losing game for me So I decided to leave Venice So I cancelled my apartment, my bank accounts, everything. I cancellled everything and I sold everything and I went to Switzerland for a while. And then COVID kicked in. Oh my God And basically I was drifting Being without a proper home for six years I didn't wanted to return to Germany. that was for me like to go backwards, which I hate to do. But somehow there was no other option at a certain point because I spent all the savings I had in those five years or four years and then I needed to go back into my country where I was born and where the passport from and ask the government for support And that was not an easy thing to do. That was another very shameful idea And I've done that only and exclusively after there was no other possibility or solution But I couldn't find housing and I couldn't find a job. It was like I was stuck in the mud For six years I will always be A Gndelier in the sense of you're once a gondolier, you're always a gondelier becausecause it is not a job But it is a handcraft and it's so few in the world who are doing that. It's something so unique You cannot just leeave that A All of this needs to be cancellled and forgotten. That was very difficult to let go That was the most difficult thing and the second most difficult thing was Berlin because I did not like Bill in and you know, from Venice, which is very tiny to come into a big city, which is quite ugly on the first sight at least That was very difficult to swallow for me. And so I got depressed and didn't leave the house for quite a while And then, you know, I needed to wake up from that, but it was incredibly difficult because I really was in such a black hall And I couldn't find my way out. I didn't saw a light didn't ask for help and that was a most cruel thing I've ever done to myself. You know what I mean? In the end, it was not the enemy. it was myself I destroyed myself. by not fighting back I felt I was tired I was to tie it. Obviously you ask yourself What did I do wrong? Did I do anything which provoked this somehow. You think there is a Partially a fault somewhere. You did something wrong somewhere. Otherwise this wouldn't have happened. You cannot imagine that that people are so evil that they destroy your existence Only because they hate you. I mean it's hard to believe. And so I was searching my own fault in all this let you or help you or pushed you to climb out question If you remember the last time we talked I said that I am a warrior. And then whatever happens, are gonna fight back. And so you know there was this little tiny little, very low voice knocking and saying, hey, you need to get the hell out of this situation. You are hurting yourself. Get your stuff together and find a way to snap out of there And I did. What was your first move to start writing, to start leaving the apartment, to start. I needed to start moving My body somehow, just a little bit You know, a shoulder. foot or just to stand up I to sit down again. I was so tired And then when I got better My health really collapsed. When I thought now I'm better, like mentally I was better, then my health was saying hello, I'm here too and collapsed veryy difficult situation, which I do not wish to nobody because to snap out of this kind of depression and misfortune is nearly impossible But at some point you do start creating like writing, I assume, or maybe thinking about film again? Yeah, you know, when I lost my existence, the first thing I was doing I knew I needed to stay in motion So I made a small film, which was quite successful for what it was It didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out because of COVID It was ignored in Germany, but it's shown now next weekend in Hamburg at the short film festival. Really? For the very first time, so it has still premiere status and they are like four years late, but you know who cares? So that's gonna be funny because I studied visual communication in Hamburg and it's shown in the cinema. I always dreamt that I wanted to show a movie there That I I I I just got goosebumps Yeah That is one of those magic, crazy things which happen. That's a nice return. Yes. What's the name of the film? Vinietium. That's a Venetian saying. it means I shall come again And so I was doing that little film and I was writing the book in the COVID time. I fed time I was writing this thing on my iPad with two fingers because you know, I'm a gondeler, I'm not an IT engineer or an author or whatot So I was writing this with two fingers on my iPad. And all this was not going anywhere. There was nothing coming out of what I was doing And I couldn't find a proper job When I came to Berlin for me, my life was over And it was very interesting because Berlin was from day one very, very kind to me. I've got support from people I didn't know and I've got some job proposals and you know, things were moving in a better direction, but I was not ready for it. I was like, o, you know, I just want to die because I didn't wanted to go back to Germany k me years to understand that Berlin is How can I say? It's softer than you think it is There's a lot of love here There's a lot of community here and there are so many different worlds here. Are you now happy in Berlin? Now, I am happy in Berlin And that is kind of new in the sense I'm like I'm driving around you know, in Berlin and I'm like,, this is not too bad. O you know where before I was like, o my go, this is unbearable. this is so ugly. And now I'm like, it's not so bad. come on. There are beautiful places here. Don't get me wrong. There are beautiful parts and sections here Obviously, After Venice, everything is ugly Do you still want to go back I knew that question would come Yes, I would I would two row. No, no. I think I'm physically not capable anymore to do that because I was really, really sick and it ising It quite a wonder that I'm still alive However, Venice is so much moral for me than the gondolering now. It's my hometown This is where I belong understand that. However, Berlin was so kind Even when I was rejecting Bulin Berlin was not giving up on me and I have a big thank you in my heart for Berlin Berlin really saved me And then the book When does the book? The book is coming out in New York on the twenty sixth of June. It feels good. It makes me happy to hear this of life for you I can only tell people never give up I really Cob Yeah the world is going to come together and that the change is coming and that we move away from this hate Because hate is absurd and so stupid and so unnecessary There's space for everybody and I don't understand why this intolerance needs to happen And I do not need to tell you that the transgender community is affected Hh Yeah. Plely and extremely buy it and share that hope I just wonder why I need to pay such a high price just in order to be happy with myself. that doesn't make sense to me. because I became Who I am And I paid an extremely high price for it I nearly lost myself In it And I think that is something which I hope will not ever happen again to somebody else in my position One final note justust a few days before we put this episode up Alex was traveling to New York City to have a release party for his book And he told me He was pulled aside by border control, interrogated and actually detained for a while in New Jersey And he had to go back to Berlin, where he is again now Big, big thanks to Alex for giving us his time once again, for being so open and honest and direct. It's always a pleasure talking to him U you can order Alex's book. on the Pegasus publishher's website is called the Gondeliere Alex H that's H A I Deinitely go check it out. One last note If you're transgender and living in the U.S and you're struggling where you need community or support or resources Always remember that you can call the trans lifeline eight, seven, seven Five, six, five eight, eight, six zero I'm Storing wheel This is Radolab Thanks for listening. Hi, I'm Gabby. I'm from the Bay Area, California, and here are the staff credits Radio Lab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Lf Nasser Sarn Wheeler is our executive editor Sarah Sandback is our executive director Our managing editor is Pat Walters Dylan Keef is our director of Sound desesign Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom W. Harry Fortuna David Gable Maria Paz Gutierz Sindu Ninasambandan Matt Kilty. Mona Maud Gaalker. Alex Neeson Sara Kari Natalia Ramirez, Rebecca Rand Join us Strogats Anis Viza Arian Wack Molly Webster and Jessica Young withith help from Gabby Santis and Maya Appleb Muhammed Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger Natalie Middleton, Angelie Mercado, and Sophie Semi Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid. Leadership support from Radarab science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Topponto Foundation Foundational support from Rado Lab was provided by the Alfred PSLO Foundation.