Avoiding Binary Thinking and Future Advice

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If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, clickranger. com or just stop by Granger For the ones who get it done Welcome back for another episode of Reality Life with K KC. and I have a new cult documentary for you and this one is on HBO and As one of the best soundtracks, if you can imagine So first I want you to think about the nineteen eighties, the excess, the glamour shoulder pads but also the supermodels Inside that world, Somet far stranger was unfolding, and that is the subject of this HBO documentary. A man was operating in the highest circles of New York society, recruiting some of the most beautiful people in the country. into a group that was built around a single extraordinary claim that he was not human Now his name, as the world knew it, was Fredrich von Meers That wasn't the name that he was born with He came into the world on Christmas D nineteen forty six in Brooklyn as Freddie Myers A Jewish kid from a working class household, raised largely by a single mother and aunt Nothing about his origin suggested the social light that he would become But Freddie Mars, he had a gift He understood reinvention. So he changed his name, constructed a new backstory. So his parents, he told people, had died in a car accident when he was a toddler A wealthy arts patron had become his guardian and through sheer force of personality and social ambition, He climbed his way into the social register the official ledger of New York's elite By the early nineteen eighties, he was a known figure in Manhattan society. He was polished and preppy Eerod day. with an apartment on the upper East side and a reputation as a gifted Wait for this astrologer And he went further He began telling people carefully, selectively over time. that he wasn't just a man with an unusual spiritual gift But he was also, wait for this An alien Specifically, he claimed that he was an extra terrestrial consciousness from the star Arkurus A giant star roughly thirty seven light years from Earth By the way, very specifically, thirty seven light years And it had entered his body, displacing the human soul that had been there before So he was in his telling, a walk in, a being of superior intelligence, of course and cosmic purpose Cent to prepare a chosen group of humans for the end of the world The end he said was coming in nineteen ninety nine A pole shift would destroy civilization A UFO would arrive to save his followers who would then be placed in rejuvenation chambers until the earth was habitable again. I'm not kidding you So in preparation, he acquired a compound in Lake Ld, North Carolina a landing strip for the ship that was coming And he spread his teachings through a public access cable television show, off course. a radio program se aliens among us that featured him as a credible source And he incorporated his organization under the name, Ultimate fitness opportunities a deliberate, almost taunting play on the acronym U F O And he called the group. eternal. values Again, I want you to just imagine this in the glamour of the eighties and this incredible soundtrack. So the beliefs themselves were an amalgam. So it was part Eastern philosophy, part newew Age mysticism, because remember the guy's an astrologer But it was also part doomsday prophecy and assembled with just enough internal coherence to feel like a system So followers were told that they had also originated on Arcturus They were souls of special spiritual lineage. They were instructed to eat carefully, abstain from romantic love, which he described as the downfall of mankind. and to dedicate themselves to self improvement under his guidance So those who strayed were subjected to what the group called slammings These were group sessions which members were surrounded and berated, attacked for their appearance. their choices and their perceived failings Loudly and without warning Later, he reversed his teachings on celibacy entirely instructing followers to pursue casual sexual encounters and framing those who resisted as psychologically repressed. He's moving the coal post The control did not, though. Meanwhile, he was building a commercial operation Selline Astrology readings for three hundred fifty dollars each prescribing expensive gemstones to which he attributed healing powers and directing members to fund the group with their earnings And he called the financial contributions a form of spiritual investment His followers called it devotion. Now what Freddie understood, perhaps better than almost anybody, was the particular vulnerability of beautiful young people and in a competitive industry Hunger for meaning behind the glamour, the loneliness that can live inside visibility And the way that a mentor who seems to you really sees you, not just your face, can become indispensable before you realize what you've actually handed over. No one illustrates this dynamic more precisely than Hoyt Richards, my guest today Whwite grew up outside of Philadelphia, graduated from Princeton with a degree in economics and competed there as a scholar athlete In the mid eighties, he was discovered by fork models, and what followed was a fifteen year career that placed him at the center of fashion's golden era. He worked alongside Cindy Crawford and Fabio He was photographed by Bruce Webber and Stehven Miseell and Albert Watson He appeared in hundreds of campaigns, and he was by most accounts, the world's first male supermodel, one of the most recognizable faces in the industry at the time when the industry was defining a global culture. And I dare you to go look at a picture because you're going to go Oh I've definitely seen him deffinitely seen him So for him He was on the beach in Nantucket in nineteen seventy eight. He was sixteen years old when Freddy walks up to him He said, sits down next to him and they start talking. He spoke about astrology, about ancient religions. about the hidden dimensions of the world. Again, he's like an adult and Hoyt is sixteen When he tells Hoyt, he was smart enough to understand things most people cannot. So that friendship that followed, H Princeton, and eventually to New York was in retrospect, obviously not a Frenchhip at all. It was this long patient methodical recruitment. And by the time Point's modeling career are ignited, he's already embedded He moves into Freddie's apartment, he slept on a mat on the floor, and he surrendered the majority of his model earnings to the group And then he recruited others He lived by his own description a double life so complete that the two halves barely seem to touch So he's got the world famous campaigns And then he's the man on the floor of the Cult leader's apartment who had given away his money, his relationships, and nearly all of his sense of self. Then he falls in love with a woman named Donna during an LA trip and the group intervenes. Remember, romantic love is forbidden, so he's forced to end that relationship and his punishment He's made to perform menial labor. He's got to shave his head, which is not ideal for somebody who's the first male supermodel And then to walk away from modeling entirely, which he was making a lot of money, right So his eventual escape came not from a dramatic confrontation As you can imagine with If you've watched tons of cult documentaries But his escape came from necessity because his mother was diagnosed with cancer And he wanted to return home to care for her And that return to his family was the beginning of a long recovery So he left eternal values in nineteen ninety nine, which is of course, the same year. Freddie had predicted the end of the world basasically Freddie and Abe Prince So Freddy ends up dying nine years earlier than nineteen ninety nine AIDS related complications in nineteen ninety days before a major expose was about to run So the group it splintered and relocated. but As you could imagine, the hold on the members lingered long after he was gone So he's with me today Hoite and I have to say what he has done is remarkable because he hass become one of the most public voices in the country on coercive control and cultic relationships. He speaks and counsels on predatory grooming, the psychology of high control groups, and what families need when someone that they love has been lost to that kind of influence This interview really is about What happens when you get lured in by a predator and then how you get out And then The long afterlife of it. So maybe you left a group twenty years ago, how it still lingers and the most surprising person who really was at the center of his recovery The guy that was also his competition and modeling Fabio. Such a fascinating documentary series, I highly recommend it. and I'm telling you, again, I know I said it three times already, it's a great soundtrack. So here iss my interview with Hit. Well, Hoy, first of all, it is a pleasure to meet you. I couldn't believe that I had never heard of this group. So I'm so thrilled that I get an opportunity to talk with you today, especially knowing How much you do for people who have experienced their awakening and are trying to make their way back into the world. Well, that's very, very, very kind of you Kate. Yeah, I mean, we're not a well known group. I mean, I personally have been talking about this for twenty years, but you know, I can only reach so many. So Ver often when I even mention the name people like Never heard of that, but I I guess that's going to change now. so it's people will now know this group what it kind of represents and the role certainly played in my life and others. Soah we'll see how this all evolves What do you think that helped or hindered them that they or him for creating this organization free internet Oh, o o, I definitely. I mean, it's one of the things I would say like when I worked on cases with families, like What you want to do a lot of times is do like some background check on these people and get like a detective involved or PI and find out is this person what they say they have done? Do they have a criminal record? do they have? And you know back then you had no access to it. You know, Freddy' invented biography was the only one I knew. And then of course the book comes out and completely verifies that one. so That's all I had to work with. and I think all of us did. and it wasn't until this production where they, you know, I still believe that narrative that he was Orphaned at age four until they found his mom And I'm like What And then, you know, I heard the phone call and I said, you He was a good boy. You know, it wasn't a cult, you know, the whole thing. and I think, wow, wow, this is reallyally And that would have been really helpful to know early on. And that's I think one of the things where people U they don't Recognize how powerful information to be, even when you're in an influenced and brainwashed state, you can come up with some facts that are undeniable that will help unlock some of that indoctrination and so that could be really vital information. I wish we had access to that back then, but it just wasn't the way it was. Even in modern times, even with the internet, if you just plant some sort of narrative in one or two places to your point, someone picks that up and they keep going with it and sometimes it's really hard to peel back the layers and get to the truth of it It really is. I mean, I think I think what really you re up against and I think we're a lot of survivors. struggle is you have to just admit to yourself on a very basic level that you got coned in some way. And that really bumped up against your ego, right? And And and I know like for myself, I fell in love with the original narrative that I bought into, like the pitch. like, yeah, this is going to be some part of the spiritual movement. It's going to be an opportunity for me to become more enlightened, become less selfish, become more kind natured, help my fellow man, potentially help the planet. So all of that sounded like an opportunity I would have never dreamed to be possible in my life So even as I went further and further down that rabbit hole I was still getting information that was coming in that was clearly contontradictory if not flat out, hypocritical to what I was being told. and even some of the scriptures I was reading, which were very, very valid someome of the behavior that was going on the b the group was clearly not consistent with that, you know material And that's where your critical thinking is still operating, but then I chose sel center because it's a form of, you know, self sabotage in the way that I wanted so much to hold ono that initial narrative because I liked the way it made me feel and I wanted to feel special and think that it was Now I was going to be involved with something important. so I became my ownst enemy in that way And you know, and you're also being fed information saying, o, all of those ideas or those thoughts that come up, those are the dark forces or the dark thoughts that are going to take you off the very path that we're trying to stay on. So I think it's one of the hardest things about the recovery process is Obviously you have to accept some form of victimhood because obviously I did not want to get involved with you something like this. I did not want to hurt the people I love the most But, you know, within that I also participated. and those are the things that really are important to take accountability for it to say, listen, even along the way even though I was being, you know influence, manipulated, brainwash, whatever you want to frame it I'm still responsible for what I said, what I did And for me, more importantly, I think the things that stick with me that are hard to you know, live with or the opportunities where I saw things going on and I chose to remain silent or not interfere in some way And that's the part that evenven though I was in this kind of impaired position because of the influence That's the part I can start to rebuild to say that even under that deep influence, there was still me there that park could still see And That's the part I can rebuild because that's when I had the epiphany to figure out it really was a call. All those thoughts came rushing back like, Dude, you saw it. You felt it. you see. And those are the things that I think are hard but useful to take advantage to take accountability for, because that allows you to start to rebuild and say, okay, it wasn't like I got completely lost out there and and't have any power whatsoever, I can start to rebuild that part of myself and that's how I can start to take control brain is already of full capacity. With tooos and errands and birthdays and the dinner plans for Tuesday, you have to let Skylight Calendar handle the rest. This is perfect for you, moms and dads It syninks your entire family schedule onto a sleek digital display So you can focus on more important things like spending time with your loved ones It's so easy to put together. 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Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done But you met Freddy when you were sixteen years old Now, a lot of people that get into organizations And cults are adults So in your case, you're someone who doesn't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex That's right So That puts you in an incredibly vulnerable position What was it about your life that you feel like at that moment at sixteen led you into his his life, his pathway Yeah, I try to frame it kind of like what I call the perfect storm in the sense that I was at a point That sixteen where I was kind of seeking, you know, some answers. U I would say I felt pressure from kind of my family background like a to figured out on some level what I wanted to do with my life, even at sixteen most people don't you know think that way. My family kind of expected, you know my mother in particular kind of a level of excellence and even though I was Successful in the sense, I did well at school. I did well at sports, I made friends easily I felt like I should have some form of a game plan. And u And I really didn't and I felt insecure about that, you know And so when I met Freddy on the beach and he starts This diatribe, I he literally talked at me. You know, it was very apparent to me that that he had information he felt was really important for me to hear But what came through it that experience was the fact that he had a game plan that he was really excited about and he felt he had found his purpose and he had kindind of you know, an outl and light that really got him excited. and it's certainly It seemed very impressive compared to my no plan. And so I was intrigued and I wanted to know more. and then And then within that conversation he just use some pretty smart, tactical manipulation techniques to kind of make me even more interested he would he would even start a new subject by saying, oh, well, you're very smart so you'll understand this. and then go into the diet drive. and And of course, as a sixteen year old, I'm like, well, I can't say I don't understand what's happening because it was a lot it was going down my head. You know and And so I remember like at one point he turns and looks at my friends and he goes, Well, you know, you're very, very different than your friends. And I've learned since that that's a valid question. is something that I was worth, you know, possibly contemplating And so The question itself isn't necessarily bad, but it's coming from someone who doesn't even know me And rather than look at that and in essence, kind of question the messenger to then even consider whether she should listen to the message. I instead, not knowing that there are people out there that are like this who can kind of take advantage of you in this way I just started to contemplate the question of like, welloy, what's he say? I don't feel like I'm different than my friends I don't think I'm any better than them but is he saying that I'm special? And I kind of went down that wormhole rather than going Wait a second, who is this person who I just met who's acting like they know me And that would have been a lot healthier to do. But I just didn't again know that people like like that are out there and that they can use techniques like this and that type of person even existed. And that's a lot of the work I tried to do and speaking to the younger people saying, I just wish I had some of that information back then to know that this is the possible red flag. like This is This is something I should be skeptical about because what all I experienced was Oh my God, this person gets me. They hear me. they see me. like they might be a mentor to me. likeike how lucky am I? This is going to be awesome And you just don't know, hey, wait a second, this might be. tactic. you know, this could be a technique, this could be a manipulation And that's the type of thing I wish kids had more u Awareness of do that That doesn't even guarantee protection, but you'll be better off than not knowing. and that's why I wish that information was a little bit more available to people And also like what adult has any business talking to a sixteen year old Well yeah. well he, you know, he had known my other friends. So he had kind of embedded on that level like I had heard about this guy Freddy, who was into astrology and into ancient civilizations Eastern philosophy and I had interest in those things. not like me In't talk to my football buddies about it, but I was open minded and that sort of stuff. So But he started up down this diatribe and I'm like, oh, this must be that guy, you know, and my friends were but the ones that had already were on the beach with me. so they were comfortable with them there. So he had kind of embeded. So I didn't see him As dangerous, I just thought, oh, this is this kind of theentered person I've heard about that I'm finally hating. So as you mentioned, he's gathering these you young people And he's meeting them at places like the beaches. His students as he would call them me up. Yeah I'm assuming that someone like him doesn't want anybody who's his own age because he wants people to look up to him all the time. No, no, no. When I went to his party, he invited me to a party and I went to a couple of them. and would bring friends and stuff I mean, to be quite honest, I just thoughtought free beer. I'm there. like no problem. L It was a very eclectic crowd. I mean, there were people my age, but people all the way up to like their sixty sevents and eighties, the whole New York scene, you know. Yeah, it was people that I would never normally interface. So there was a wide variety of ages. There wasn't a bunch of young people. Now when I finally went to see him in New York once I got to university and he invited me up to New York to go to the studio fifty four, then it was kind of this group around him There were a couple, what I would call more adults and then the rest of us were in our twenties And so that was more apparent at that stage And that's where I had this understanding of what he meant when he said, I have my students. because when I saw him in Nantucket He was more of, you know, he had friends more his age group and older and then there were just kids around once but it wasn't like I felt like any necessarily some association. When I saw him in New York I could say that's when I kind of recognize he kind of had an entourage than I would have described I'm in that stage like a narcissist with an entourage. I kind of frame it the perspective that I My journey with Freddy was kind of watching him Like getting under the ground floor a startup where I watched it become a cult. Like when I met him, it really was an entourage. know And then R Montgomery comes out with this book and that was the catalyst. It kind of changed everything, moved things into place where now we have to get an office because we're We've got people from forty five countries around the world writing to us and wanting guidance and wanting Freddy to give him a life reading or that sort of thing. And we had to get organized. We started doing seminars and we started creating audiotapes and all sorts of products That's where it started to act and behave much more like what you would call and label accurately ocult Now when you look back Do you see if there do you see that there were people before you had that moment of awakening D you see other people that were beginning to kind of put the puzzle pieces together and slowly kind of drift off or separate themselves notot so much around my like somebody just didn't have an interest in it, right? So and it wasn't looked at necessarily they had identified what it was. The one who first figured it out was my mother You know, she's like, this thing's o cult and she just went at it gangbusters and and here's another case of where I really did not serve myself well because I knew nothing about cults. The only thing I knew about cults is the popular culture would have said, you know, in the media where I'm thinking about Jonestown or, you know you know, Charlie Manson or you know, theream version. Yeah exactly. So Going to studio fifty four and then going back to Freddy's place and having high tea and talking about philosophy, Well, that's not what cults do. I mean, who kid? I mean it was just people who were having a good time and have a little spiritual inclination All of those things did not serve me and even more so in my kind of ignorant and uninformed status It was a lot of arrogance in the sense that when anyone even had the question to say like, o, it sounds a little culty not be like screwy. You think I would join a call like I thought the mere fact that I had gotten involved with this was the greatest criteria to prove it can't be a cult because I would never join a cult you know. And even that word joining isn't really even accurate because when people say, oh, you know why did you join a cult? It's like, listen, joining kind of has the you know implied meaning that there's informed consent and there's always so much deception involved. So it's much more of a seduction you know, again And that's and even in that seduction, and even when you when I frame it that way, sometimes people say like O what was inie was so weak and like, no, it's not about me being weak. It's about the seducer being really good at what they do You know,'t don't blame the rape victim here. watchatch like the person you're working with is the master manipulator. And I think too often those things get phrased and used in a way that's not really accurate. And you know it's more like ultimately at the end of the day, I feel like the best way to describe my experience was I had a twenty year cultic relationship with this group because I really look at this now kind of let's see as a spectrum. you know, not unlike the way you would Look at even somethingone like autism, like everyone falls somewhere on that spectrum And I think a cultic relationship as I would frame it, The main identifier is it's a relationship where you've usually unconsciously given your power away to someone else or in this case for me to a group And It can often come because someone's going swept you off your feet in some way with an enormous amount of flattery or compliments and attention And we all tend to like that. and then at a certain point know that person may start to withhold that and then you start to seek it out a little bit more. and then they you've now created this unhealthy power dynamic. and luckily not every personality does this, but certain people will then use that unhealthy dynamic to potentially control and abuse you. And all you experience is No matter how hard you try, it doesn't seem to be enough. no matter what I would do, I always felt in some way I was being diminished And I feel like everyone has had that relationship You it be could be a parent, it could be a sibling, it can be a coach, a lover, a boss And so this is just an extreme version of that. And I feel like that's why they're good teaching tools because the extreme version sometimes it makes those dynamics a little bit more obvious so that we, as a general populist, can recognize a more subtle version that we've probably also encountered And then by labeling it correctly in that way in this cultptic kind context, And I think there's an opportunity to say, hey, listen That was a really traumatizing relationship for me. I probably need to take some ownership and lean into that trauma Most people are pretty effective at getting out of that relationship, but they don't necessarily deal with how traumatic it was And then they potentially start a pattern of bringing that type of relationship back into their life again And then you don't know you're actually in a cycle or a pattern because you've never dealt with that initial trauma. So I try to Look at this more as a universal condition, which I just had an extreme version of R? Well, I know that Fabio was really important at that time. And I love that part because it's one of my favorite parts of the story because because I mean, just I tell you, one of the things you learn in these things, Kate is who shows up for you when you need it the most? Right? And and you know, Fabia was one of the first models I met, like, you know, early on and You know, I think one of the reasons We became good friends was not only by the fact that we clicked and kind of really got along well, was We both went off to have the success and we knew each other way before that. So it was never about b. because you know I think anyt timee you've had a level of success You're always kind of concerned like, are people interested in me because of my performance or they really interested in me. And so Fabio and I always had this really grounded. you know, friendship and it was he was just fun to be around and and I've never met anyone who is a just so comfortable in their own skin, like not feeling they need to ever do anything other than be who they are. And it was such an impressive body. was a well groomed people pleasure. and I just, you know so impressed by someone who's just like, hey Fabio and, you know, and then, you know, he's kind of this bigger than life personality. going to the clubs with Fabio was like showing up at four. you know, I felt I felt invis him. Yeah. he got the whole thing. Yeah. And but he he was he was just such a loyal and kind and good natured guy and incredibly bright. I mean, I think people sometimes don't know don't know him, don't realize that like, you know, he's an electrical engineer. His dad was Very successful a mechanical engineer who created the patent for like the Um, yeah, that, uh you know, the conveyor belt that's used like eighty percent of businesses across, you know, the world. So he had this Wow background and just but just a really down to earth great guy And when I showed up at his doorstep You know he behaved in a way you would dream of friend to be. he recognized and I've had conversations with them about this. likeike he knew something terrible happened. I was like a shadow of the person he knew and But he knew also this is not the time to confront or probe friend just give them a safe sanctuary and space and let him kind of incubate and I was able to stay there for a year, he didn't ask for rent. He's just like Whatever you need buddy, you know, whatever if I can help. And he knew Like when I was ready, I would come to him and he never in any way pushed in way like what are you doing here? Whind your head shaped? What's going? None of it. It was just like, Hey, let's go to the gym, you know, let's go have breakfast and just just gave me a space to kind of start to deal with the kind of PTSia I was kind of going through That is one case where having a male friend may work to your advantage because your female friends be like, what's the scoop? What's the situation? What happened four months ago? But dudes can get together and talk about absolutely nothing. Right Exactly. I did We can just throw rocks all afternoon and not say like just try to hit the tree and do that for three hours effortlessly. Yeah, We're a different breed sure. Here's my question. The very things that kind of bonded you as you pursued this or stayed the course with the other people that were around you When you have your awakening and you disentangle yourself Is it hard for you to remain tight with those people because everybody sort of has their own moment But you were so bonded at one time Is it too traumatic to have a relationship anymore? or do you feel like with time, it leads you back to the very thing that maybe bonded you in the beginning? Yeah, it's a great question. And I would say initially it's like a divorce No no, no real chance because clearly I and I didn't even when I left I hadn't identified what it was. No, I left under the premise that I just wasn't measuring up. I wasn't good enough. I was in a way holding the group back even though I financed this thing largely for fifteen years. that I was not going to fulfill the task at hand because I was not wired that way in the way that they were. I mean, you were biscine asked in many levels to be Tyrannical and controlling and lethal with other personalities around you. And that just wasn't my wiring. And that was considered to be strong and that was representative of who we're supposed to be And there was a couple things that led up to that. One was getting involved with Donna, you know, who opened my heart and maybe realized that this idea of personal love wasn't such a bad thing. and I'm actually feeling like this girl is amazing. She really seems to be my corner in this idea that romantic love is so terrible doesn't feel so bad. It is kind of amazing. And so that helped. And then the other part of it It's just feeling like The way I was expected to behave not only towards others, but even to look at myself just didn't resonate with me. And I felt like that was a sign of my weakness that I wasn't strong enough to kind of step up and see things in this unattached way and so I felt like they were never going to stop trying to fix me and that you know, that measured I came down to like nightly Slam sessions at the worst of the last nine weeks when I was down there And, you know, that's when they were shaving my head. so I could have modeled quarantine to to the lakehouse and I had to do all the kind of slave labor that no one else wanted to do just to teach me humility And I was resentful and I was resisted. and I was, you know, my mind, I'm looking in the mirror, I look like a convict and I'm thinking Yeah, if I had hair, I could actually like be in Paris, like kissing Ny Campbell making twenty five K. I guess. I guess I'm not spiritual because I really would rather be there than scubing the toilet right now. So I guess you know, they've been telling me for years that I'm just not spiritual and I'm full of it. And I guess maybe that's true And so my impetus to leave was to say, they're spending so much time on this lost cause If I remove myself, at least that time could be used for something more constructive And that was my rationale to get out the door. So it wasn't until like another eighteen months even after I left Fabios, before I finally put it together, what this was and Yeah And then when that epiphany happened I then made two phone calls immediately. One was to my brother who had attempted to do this intervention and get me out. knowing, you know, that he in this attempt, if it didn't work, then I may never talk to him and I didn't talk to him for ten years You know, I mean, my younger brothers used to me during that time and say, you know, Rory feels terrible and what happened? you'd like to talk and I'm like