Final Thoughts and Future Episodes

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Well it is for today, anyway, as we tackle Christopher Nolan's two thousand five comic book blockbuster Batman Begins, the film that arguably made both him and lead actor Christian Bale household names and kickstarted a superhero trilogy still regarded by many as the greatest ever How does it hold up twenty one years later? It's time to find out Cast begin. Hello and welcome to Redsht Cinema Club. I'm your host, Rob Pearson. We are joined today by David Jackson. Hello and Nathan Dyer. Hello. It's week three of Christopher Nolan And we have reached Batman begins Yeah I've been wanting to watch Batman or the Batman films since we started this pod. Yes, yeah. I was thinking about you a lot.ed you in a roundabout way we've got there. Not how I wanted to get there, but we've watched a Batman film finally around a Batway. I am disappointed you didn't say podcast begin at the beginning of this, by the way. Yeah I really thought you would. just ust you have this a frustrating in joke that we developed in the office. That was pretty big on social media Internet wide. Was it? Yeah. Don't worry. We can make this comple l bit really redundant by Rob doing it for the introv View that we've already heard. He could say, Batman begin Well, in in a Christopher Nolan way, he has already done the VA.. Oh my Godd. sure we should have let's hope the podcast begin isn't it? Mbe I just say podcast end to the end. But yeah, I'm interested to talk about this because This used to be Well this says, I've always said that this is my favourite of the Nolan Batman trilogy. I know you think Batman' silly Nace So he couldn't even look at Nath when he said that just so you know He he dared not look at him as he said the word. But it's also interesting to talk about it, isn't it in relation to Christopher Nolan's other movies especially having come off the back of memento and insomnia now into his Third sort of like big Budget film, I guess Yeah. Well, yeah, following.n Is that what it's called? It is, yeah, that's tiny, Yeahah. And I think meento is pretty small. and it is, but it's still a real film, isn't it? There are real films and there are not real films. Like Peter Jackson, Brain deead's not a real film, is it? What was Peter Jackson's first real film? Goodust me. It wass Lord of the Rings. It was Lord of the Rings' first real film? It was your first film, Lord of the Rings? Yeah. He started with Lord of the Rings When they were Oscar nominated for Heavenly Creatures, that was a real film. Was that a real one Yeah. youd probably say that that was the Academy thought it was worth a mention at. launched a career of Kate Winslet. Kate Winds's first realal film.. Anyway, back Manic. Batman, begin. Let's just start by asking everybody What they what their opinions of Batman begins are before watching it this time and then and whether those have nudged at all having having seen it now with you Dave. Well, I guess I should speak about my wider Batman. feelings first perhaps. Please. that's also a good idea. And I I don't consider myself a Batman fan, Not that I don't enjoy Batman, but I'm not really a fan. I just I've seen I think all the movies Everything before this movie, all the movies before this movie I've probably seen once maybe twice and I I saw them at various points in my life all years. When when I was young And I Don't. No, I can't remember much about them and I think of them as being quite weird and often quite silly. I mean, I just think of Arnie saying Iice to meet you and stuff like that I'm thinking that's stupid Um I don't think he actually says that in the film. Does he not? No. Wow. He saysice o. What killed the dinosaurs? Did say evenven though it's fact incorrect Yeah That's right. It doesn't even work as a joke. The Iicece Age and the dinosaurs never met. No So and then but then Batman begins in this era of Batman has kind of changed that Remember seeing this at the cinema and Be the kind of batman I didn't realize that I wanted, like something more gritty and more real and less cartoonish characters outlandish. you know, I feel like the The bad guys in this are No belieievable than at least I think of like, you know, Jim Carey wearing a a suit with Qion marks. I think the Joel Schumacer films did a real number on everyone's perception of Batman before Nolan came along. Yeah. Everyone's forgotten what Burton did. Well, you're only as good as your last thing and the last things were the Joel Schumac or, wasn't they? Yeah I have forgotten. I have seen those movies, but I have forgotten all about them Um, And so yeah, and that changed. I thought this film was brilliant. It was like a like I said, it may be interested in Batman I wanted more of this. I love that it was a trilogy that had been planned that the movie ends with, you know, and I think this has happened a few times now in the Batman film like You know? This guy there's a new bad guy in town. He's left a calling card. I' like shit in the cinema? I know what that is? Even me who knows nothing about Batman So that was my kind of history with Batman and up until this point it totally changed things for me. It put Batman on the map for me. somethingomet that I was interested in and enjoy I think that Christian Bell's really good A really good batman Um And this time around, I haven't seen it in a long time. This is the one of I think the film in the trilogy that I have seen the fewest times And u I was expecting to enjoy it and I really enjoyed it basically. end off lard. Yeah, a long time to get there, but no did I did, I thought. was again, I think I don't know. I just introduced the character in the trilogy really well and I'm excited to sort of watch the others now I like the way it sets up the character and H origin story I like this origin story. I know that the origin story of Batman has been done several times and there's s of nuance in the way that it is told on the exact sort of things that happen, but this one works for me, I like Gotham characters Yes I don't know why Rob thinks I'm not a bat fan because I've platinumed all the bat games. Yeah You have. And I like punching the men in the games and I like flying around in the games. I even like the Batmobile. You like the games a lot. I the games. my history with Batman is that I guess when I was a kid, I think it was on channel four, the Adam West show was on just in the background all the time, seemingly the weekends. and I enjoyed it. I remember once one of my parents telling me that they weren't really climbing up a building. They were just holding a rope and walking with their backs hunched That was obviously a crushing disappointment. I remember at some point realizing that the penguin was the trainer from Rocky and just being very confused That's also, I don't know if you guys f No fucal. Okay. Okay, cool. Well that's something for your future And I was I was around, I was old enough to remember the Burton movies when they came out I remember my dad being really like for similar it's so funny how things just shift and you hear echoes of things. I remember it must have been on TV, I guess at Christmas time and I'm like we could probably look this up there's transmission dates, but it's probably like ninety two or something. so it was probably eleven. I think We were like a family gathering and the Batman movie was on and my dad was kind of saying, If Batman really existed, this is what he would be like. He would just be a really strange guy punching people in the face. And I was like, o, cool, interesting, like a new The only thing to compare it to was Adam West And the I was a little bit older when the second one came out Remember my dad being a big fan of Michelle Pier as Catwoman And then I I guess I dad was a so big fan. One for the dads. And I guess by the time the Schumacher films came around, I was reading film magazines and more interested in film and probably a bit snobby about them Watched the third one? No, didn't really watch Bman forever. Forever. Yeah with Val Kilmer. I don't think I've ever seen that. Really? I don't think so. And I did see the fourth one. I don't know why. I ended I wrote something about it for a talk film Again, about fifteen years ag blloody ages ago now. so I watched it for that bit a soft spot for it is completely different. And I think I brought it up on this podcast that Schumach had said like on one of the documentaries which you can probably find on YouTube. He's very sincere and he says if anybody was disappointed or' let down by what we made, that wasn't my intention We just wanted to entertain you. And and I don't know, maybe there is more to that film He He's fun I So I and I guess you're right. Robin, I remembember the Burton stuff. and also remember the camp West stuff. So it was Schumacher was more harkening. it was like just turning up the dial on a version of Batman, which I'd kind of seen before. So I didn't W wasn't like our Batman' awful then by the time this came around two thousand five I guess I was I watched meento in insomnia at the cinema and was interested in what Nolan was doing and like especially total film and empire to a certain extent. we talk about like young British filmmakers and Um wereere you excited Do you remember a time where you heard that Nolan was making Batman? Did you have any thoughts on that I can't remember exactly, but it's more that I was still at university I was What was I doing? I was doing a PhD in film that I didn't finish So And I wasn't really studying anything around this sort of area, but I was interested in the idea that comic book movies were kind of back. And I remember having a conversation with a friend of mine called Matt Dinel, who studied English and then film with me and was talking to me about comic books, like this is year two of universities. like the year two thousand. I think because the X Men movie was coming up And I was like I hated the conversation. I remember thinking, I don't want to hear about comic. Like this is too far. And I played games forever. you know And there was to me it was like this line of like you know, fannishness that I couldn't cross. I b brought that to him. I think I mentioned it on the podcast before. he denied it but it is true that he denied it. I spe your Bxent. It was kind of like it was like I' really know about comics there. but so I guess I was excited about it from that point of view and curious And I think these days like a young upcoming name taking on like a known Um IP is more interesting. so I guess I had that. And I remember really enjoying it. And I remember it being a real thing when I I was starting to work in future publishing and then moved back in two thousand seven to Bath and was here full time. and people were still talking about it and there was excitement about the next film and So it was kind of in the it was it became part of like the accepted we like these things canon of like me in my twenties, I guess. like and I really enjoyed the film and I enjoyed the sort of serious take and like the groundedness which comes from it being Nolan and you can just kind of see a filmmaker actually sort of interrogates themes and ideas and that idea of I think the word theatricality does so much heavy lifting in this film U But it's fine. I think that's okay. like you're kind of saying we're in the real world and these people are using this really spe specific mode of appe and know marketing, I guess to achieve something within the vigilante or crime space. You could always say The League of Shadows has its own creative agency and they want to pit. Who's going to make us? We want our socialists to be tight. We good. Yeah. What's our motto? What do we have? we're really pivoting We will kill people and we will destroy cities. sort of our USP. And yeah, I enjoyed it again this time. I It felt incredibly fucking old. Christian Bale looks so young and immaculate in this film. So yeah, I reallyjoyed it. I'm looking forward to the next. My memory is that the pinnacle is number two and I really didn't enjoy three. It seemed messy the first time I watched it and then the Aural Ns video just took it apart forever and I' not been able to look at it It Yeah, exactly. What about you, Bro? you always used to think this is my favourite of the Nolan trilogy I thought it was really silly when I watched it last night. I don't know I don't know why. I just watched the England game. It bit of h. What was that eleven o'clock? Yeah, here we go. Two and a half hours. I was ready to enjoy it because I know this is really easy. It's such an easy film to watch. I know this film, I've seen it probably five or six times going enjoy myself and And there were just a load of littleittle nolany bits in it. looads of nolany bits in it. L a lot of Liam Neeson's shit in this, isn't he? His mustouache is questionable really shit. What do you mean? the whole I think trailing bit at the beginning. And what I mean by nolany bits is where it'll just be a montage of Now we're training on the ice, now training inside. And Christian Bell thinks he's doing well in the training, but he's not because he' he hasn't considered this clever thing. And Liam Neson would just be telling him a thing. and then he just says like Shahid a man's name. a man just spins out of the shadows like actually I'm here. You didn't see me, did you Christian Bell. So I was hiding the duck. You weren't pay attention And then the whole fucking mind your surroundings bullshit is shit. Why is he He has his sword at Liam Neeson's neck and And he's like You haven't beaten me because actually you're standing on some is quite thin. I can just break it anytime So if you're in an actual fight, your neck would have just been cut Two minutes ago and you wouldn't have been able to do. You would' have been able to break the ice under his feet, Liam Neeson. Mind your surroundings.. mind your surroundings, the big fiery log's gonna come down from the top. you weren't prerepared for that way you could havea. But he's also saying, don't monologue If you're going to win and win, don't go. I've won heres I should say.'s, you know, that's why There's L lot of lessons to learned. It's just there's lots of silliness like that. And if you didn't say mind your surroundings at the start, then Christian Beayar wouldn't be able to say it at mind your surroundings at the end. Yeah. and it wouldn't be we would The surroundings are rubbish every time. There's no way you can train for minding your surroundings, A when you're sword fighting a man on a frozen lake B when you're fighting a man in your mansion that's burning down and C when you're also then having a fight on a speeding train that's about to career off the tracks that have been blown up the m minind your surroundings Well you can't train for each of those, you know every eventuality, but you can approach each You know, I think the plan is silly. The whole plan, whose plan. Lg of shadows plan I think their plan about Andust when Lilliam Neeson reveals that it' actually' us that burned London. You're doing the thing that was that I do It was us. Well actually it's so true, isn't it? Like you try We did try to kill Gotham before with economics And just expecting the whole audience be try more modernhods, econic. yeah, V veryy clever. they didn't reckon run Thomas Wayne, did they? Anyway. Oh my Godd, fucking annoyed me. A lot of it annoyed me. I thought Killian Murphy was great. I really enjoyed him. What annoyed you about it was this Batman movie wasn't realistic enough I don't as a real guy. I didn't like this one It was sillier than I remember. Yeah. I remembered it being likeike you said, like gritty real talkark. yeah, yeah, Batman's really scary. and there was quite a lot of silliness to it. And I didn't not enjoy it, but it stood out to me this time in a way. it hasn't done before. And this is the first time I've seen Batman begins host being post. me making not really liking Christopher Nolan that much is a core part of my personality. And there are just things that stuck out to me this time that I've noticed in his other films that's just great and they gr it here I still enjoyed the film. and I don't know. I'm really looking forward to watching the Dark rightight now because Mbe maybe I'll finally see it for what it is, which is where everyone claims it to be like The greatest. comic book adaptation ever, the best of the Dark Knight trilogy, etc. I'd argue that the things that you have picked up and not enjoyed are not particularly known thingsings I think they are. The no the clever dialogue Bait and switch Look whenever he's Whenever it's the bit of his film where he's explaining why the film is clever Another line that always sticks outs to me is in inception where Joseph Gordon Levittt runs behind the man and pushes him down the stairs and just says Paradox. It's paradox. Remember, we spoke about that earlier in the film. Paradox. just it's the lines they put us in there that you know when they come out in the cinema, if I was going like It's people that you hate all about yeah I dont know You don't like I yeah, we're getting there aren't we? We're getting closer. It's like you don't like people to be allowed to think that they're clever because they understand's like he's making films to make people feel clever and you don't like that some people feel clever when they watch his films Thank you therapist, D. It' to the bottom of it. I was watching this with my wife and she pointed out because I've been complaining about insomnia and the moment on the bed where in the last part where Albercino says the end justifies the means.en it's kind of I was saying, well you know let subtext live, like what's happening? And she sort of turned to me. I think the third time somebody said something completely on the nose about you've got to become C an ideason says that the first five minutes. She sort of turned to me and went and insomnia pissed you off. and I was like, I'm enjoying my backat film. What' that a legend, Mrter Way. You have to become a legend. Can we talk about Michael Kain and how fucking brilliant Michael Cain good. He's so good as I want him to be my dad. Yeah. so good, isn't he? Yes. Although sad news about Michael Caine, I did see he's alive, but I saw that he had licensed his voice to be used for AI and there is a twelve hour reading of the Odyssey now by Michael Caine. Wow, which just and I just thought about listening to it And all the enjoyment I might get from listening to it would be, Ohh, Michael Kaine's reading this really well. And then every time I'd think, o it's not him. it's a machine without a soul, this is terrible. But if Michael Kain Bessed that Maybe that's okay. I don't know how I feel at that point. I don't have to listen to it. No, I if there was enough Michael Caine in the world that an AI can actually do a good, you know, Well, he might have gone to a just a loke on the street was like just said some words into aicrophone. It was like, yeah, AI, you can use me then AI has got just that microphone recording. Michael Kaine's entire career presumably is what the AI might be very good down on. But what I want is for Michael Kain to have read that and with his talent and skills to have invested it with some kind of humanity and emotion. ninet now Yeah her b. I'm not saying she should have done it. I'm just saying that it's a terrible artfact about where we are as a I suppose civilization. Michel Kain was like like him just like ye See see youonight I, Michael Kananye, here Yeah A I can use it, yeah. I'd likeope someone in Master Wang. Master W. We've got a Came family to feed. Can you do the best line in the film is you can. You can br The ofol. If you like, if you like Br to fank. The relationship is brilliant and slightly confusing because you know, Christian Bale. or Bruce Wayne, as we should probably call him has been has been traveling, you know, on his life of crime exploration research for good. crime for good in a way. Yeah for, you know, several years. he's been declared dead Um And Alfred has inherited his fortune, I believe that's what is revealed. And obviously that's why he's lyed about the rolles. But then as soon as Bruce is back, he's back in the suit. I thought it could be a leveler Like rightight. I do I do have this money now. I'm not going to be a butler again. You can have the house back. I don't know what the legal ramifications are if you get somebody's estate because they're declared dead and then they turn up and they're like, I'm not dead ike I feel like it's not as straightforward as you've got to give all that back 's honorable man is he had promise to Thomas Wayne, didn't he? He did, but I also like that Bruce Wayne is like state You know, he's not like no, Alfred like Things have changed. you don't have to be my butler anymore. I wonder what Alfred's been doing for those seven years as well. like just taking the jet around on the pretence of looking for Bruce. I'm looking for Bruce in the Bermuda triangle again. Thailand again. Yeah. having a Carry night with Lucia Swott. Yeah. Yeah that is good though. That's the other thing the other thing that shit is the whole the Rut Gahhuer Am I the boss? A I not the boss Little got you I've got you actually I like that bit. I was waiting for it last night. G the memo. I like that bit. I particularly like the whole just him trying to play Bruce Wayne. But also how stocks. Easy it is for Apparently to buy a hotel, you just write a thing on a check and put the check in the pocket of the waiter who's in the hotel. I don't I think I'm buying the hotel. Yeah that I'm not sure that that was supposed to represent the purchase of the hotel. That was supposed to represent the obnoxiousness of a billionaire doing what he wants in he was by nootel It fck it I mean yeah, he literally could buy it. And then he was buying not the h He bought all of the shares. It's like the tig came to tea, isn't it? And Brew bought all the hotels and he bought all the shares of his company as soon as it was made public and he fired Rookerhauer Yeah and he didn't get them m. But he can do that. like it's it's I feel like watching it now because of because we seem to have achieved a new level of wealth that exists now even compared to when this movie originally came out, which wasn't that long ago. it' peopleeople are way more rich, you know, the few are way more rich. And I feel like it lands better. it's more believable now almost. Like I'm just thinking about Egon Musk definitely just be in a hotel and be like, I'm buying the hotel. I'm buying ten thousand bat masks, you know and I'm buying another ten thousand. Like it's just and it's and not that it touches the sides. I feel like the first time I watched this movie I was thinking Buying that hotel must have hurt a bit. that's put a dent in somewhere. You must have to go home and go, Alfred, I've bought a hotel for God's sake, look at the accounts. What have we got left? But actually it's like it's no not thing. a drop in the ocean. more about me than it is. Like Elon Musk would have to liquidate quite a lot of What makes a leader worth following? What should you really care about in your job as technology is changing so quickly? Is it just gonna be about machines talking to other machines? I mean, should you quit your job and start something on your own? What would that take? What does success and risk look like when we're all at the starting gate together? These are the questions we answer each week on lead human Myers and Tim Spangler. Join us each week and subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and YouTube We'll tell stories, we'll hear from some of the best, and we'll try to figure this out together. Ready to experience something new All trarails helps you find your next hike whether you're looking for something nearby or planning a trip. Read reviews from real people like you too choose your trail and know what to expect You can also download the map in case service gets spotty P and experience your next hike with all trarails The app for exploring the outdoors. Download it today and find your outside assets surely to just purchase. Well yes. or you know, you can't just go around, I don't think. Even th now he's a trillionaire buying ten thousand bat masks. This is my this is my point though. Well, the bat masks aside, but this is my point about the hotel. You can absolutely see Elon Musk getting drunk in a hotel And telling the waiter he's buying the hotel. Y. and then the hotel owner going, you're not buying my hotel. That was really rude and everyone saying that was bad Elon Mas, but him doing what he wants. That's what I thought this was. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's right. What about the structure of the film which r little bit of a time thing. Ran Yeahah, just in parallel was showing us Young Master Wayne along with what was it? Medium Master Wayne. He was and contemporary Master Wayne. Yeah, and that was pretty much it. But how was I've forgotten already. So we were seeing him wherever he is in on his travels in prison. Yeah att the same time as we're seeing How he left We see ye, I mean, we see the first scene of the movie is him as young Master Wayne who will It's him becoming afraid of bats and then we go to kind of contemporary Masceain who will follow who at that point is in some far flung prison where he's about to meet Liam Neeson but I think during him his stint the top of the mountain We are seeing a little bit of medium master wayne where it really struck me how important a good haircut is. Oh yeah, he does look young as well, doesn't he? And just see Really plain For a man who's not playing where they think also's just a fzed and hair Very good face actor, Christian Bell. Alcucino with the eyes, Christian Beall with the face. Like he' the direction is obviously can you make can you somehow make your face look young and he does. There's something about the the vacantness of expression that he has and like the He's not asure himself at all like when I think it was all hair. As soon as you can't see someone's fore hair but it's also kind of that jittery nerous energy has when he's like outside the courtroom Hill. The guy who killed his parents I thought this was all rather elegantly done. I thought it was good. and especially because like from the point of view of I was enjoying it as a film and it was was you have to it's awful, right? When the origin stories for superheroes are not often the preserve of like really smart filmmaking, but it's getting all the ideas in then it needs to. And at the same time on a more like superhero level. It's quite important to judge very well at what power level your hero is going to enter there Beuse you can't Origin the oranges story is different. withith an Origin story, I don't want to see the whole like, what was the first time he took a self defense class? Like, I don't want to see that. So he's in the prison and he can already beat six people up Yeah. But he hasn't been trained by ninjas yet And that's what we get to see. and then he breaks with the ninjas and then he's batman. Like there's good stages of development. They've chosen a jumping off point, which was the correct jumping off point. So we get to see himng really good DIY skills. I noticed. I thought that I was thinking leveling on the fucking I know And he's just chucking them away. Also like setting he sets up a whole lighting system in the back cave Yeah. because I was thinking like in my life now doing DIY is quite hard. I'm a perfectionist. I get really sad if it's not perfect at the end, but also like I have a child. I was thinking if I had an Alfred basically, if I was Christian, if I was Bruce Wayne, I had an al Alfred and he's bring me snacks and drinks and stuff. and I'm going, oh Alfred I forgot the drill and he gets the drill. L I still an apprentice couldn't do any of the stuff he's doing. It's not about time space to do it. No it's like, you know, he's really good at dealing. We should bear in mind that's that bit? How much is doing Like Lucius Fox has made most of his gadgets or Lucius Fox' depart. We see him doing a lot of customizing thereough, dont? he puts his helmet take his mask. you know, he's sort of cuts the straps off of a belt or something and he bevels that. he makes a bat He makes the whole bat thing himself. Yeah, which does does have a little bit like school DT class kind of like I made a bat. I you know, the thing that they used to make us do in DT was we used to get a block of wood and we used to have to of a hippo Okay A my wood was shit. I maintain the grain about bad workmen. the grain was all wrong in my wood. was pase tell me that somewhere near assough' a wooden hippo that you carve. The shit thing was I was it's not like my brother was particularly good at DT, but he'd done it two years previously and he had a fucking brilliant hippo which was on my mum's window sill So when I eventually did mine And mine looked like a badger. the face was all wrong and I'd use like a circular rasp to try anyway. so they sat next to each other. One of them just looked emacia. You looked like a different animal entirely. There might be a picture of the two of them together at some point. I made a tie dye tie at school for my dad and he wore a tie every day to work Dad. It's because I don't love you, dad. I mean, honestly, even then I knew the tie was absolly sh You know, his job was sales. like he I think he would actually have harmed his career. Like it's that bad. he would have put it on to get in the car Exactly then when you get to work just soop it for the for the proper I find That's what yeah, he could have done a bit of a charade. Just the charade say I some photos of him around the country is Taiwan right. D There was another line which I think you would have been annoyed about the imaginary people in the cinema enjoying Rob, which is when he does the fight in the prison and then he says isolation and he says, Wh what do I? he says protecting. He says, are only protecting. And he says, N you them Yeah Butm Yeah, well' back That's a good bit. I really enjoyed the origin story. I think it's really well judged And I think it tells you what you need to know about the character. It's well paced and it's like the one hour mark almost exactly when you first see Batman Yeah for the first time. And it is it's a moment that's very earned, isn't it Yeah and I really enjoy the first you see of Batman is that one guy who goes towards the shipping crate and just you don't see him You just see, it gets pulled inside Yeah and everyone else starts getting scared And then any time he uses this little this little bat' when he has it drop down from the light that sputters on and off. Yeah. I think I think This scene is really good at exemplifying What they have been talking about Yes about how you know, about the fear, like making that they're all afraid to be just it's not about kicking everyone's ass Like he could do that and it would nowh be nowhere near as effective, but like everyone just not knowing what's going on and being sort of picked off one by one and the way that Falcone is getting freaked out and the policeman's getting freaked out and like that you know, he's like tries to drive away and his driver's been killed. I really enjoyed that scene. I just think it's like it's good. J whole thing. B Colel of course, you're right. just to have knocked out. he would never do such I thought Tom Wilkinson, I enjoy him in this film. I'm not sure that a New Yorker would enjoy his accent. I'm not really I don I don't know how accurate it is because he's from somewhere in England. Yeah. What do I think of him as being most famous or maybe the full Monte I think? Yeah, he had a kind of a great run in sort of He's in, oh man, I can't even remember, but like Soderberg Clooney movies. He's in that kind of The Sun's room. wasas that like a Mirrimax film from the But he had like a great run in American Indie movies in like the Nauies around this time. It was always a bit of a surprise to me. He seems like the most unglamorous man, but I guess it's a bit like when people like Albert Finney would kind of pop up and stuff in the eighties and nineties as well. Yeah he's great I think it's a good character as well. I like that scene Yeah. with the foot lightights, you know, the one of when young Bruce goes up to him in I really like that as well. You thinkink because your mummy and your daddy got shat. It's like he's in the room with us. It's true though. I like that bit. I think he summs up really well what's going on and he's not an idiot or just a thug, like he's quite smart. He's an unpleasant character.'s unpleasant sureure. Not as unpleasant as the judge though reat casting of the judge J you can tell right when you see him and just as a judge in the courtroom that he's just not a good guy Yeah see that place It's weaponized ginger hair. ye Yeah.m big man. and What did you O had you forgotten the Razal Gul B and swwitch Ken with Hanaby. He is a This is a joke on the word wannabe. He's a Watanabe Razal Gul.. Thank you very much. If you Wanabe Razal Gul. Yeah, you got toa it with my friend. you got to chop off thisanabe he's an inceptionist isn't he? Watanabe? He is. he's the incepted He is incepted Yeah. he'cept the inceptee Um how do we say it Rasu Ras al Ras. I think this are a apostrophe AS from my titling for I've heard it's pronounced Ri Al al Ghul as well as well. But maybe it maybe it's part of a meta joke where the lady who introduces him at the party is like, Am I saying this correctly? Yeah Raaz Al Ghul? Right. mayaybe she's not say. Maybe she's not say isn't it? It is Liam Neeson, right? Yeah. Yeahah. Okay good Yeah, I I I I didn't Obviously this time it just didn't I knew the whole way through. I had remembered the whole way through that he was. but I think the first time I was I probably thought it was It' quite good because you have this separate segments of the story and it's kind of like, w, rather alool fucking idiot. he ended up burnt And then he's just over in a corner. and then but then that's why Falcone being such a big presence is interesting because it's like, oh, here's our bad guy. Falcone, the bad guy, and then it escalates a little bit to Scarecrow. He has a little scene where he's like He's coming here. He's coming here. Yeah's coming here He says, he's going to be pissed off with you Falcon Yeah, Killie Murphy is great in this film. Did you know interestnteresting that Killie Murphy auditioned for the role of Batman There's even a screen test that you can see where he is wearing the bat suit being Batman. I did not know then Nolan was like Killian Murphy, you' really, really good you're not Batman unfortunately. Yeah, But you can be Scarecrow and then you can be O andheimo in one of my films in years to. Do you want to win an Oscar? You can win an Oscar. Kamerin Tunaby wasn't the inEceptee. I've just remembered. that was Killia Murphy and Kamin Tunabee is the man that pays them to incept the inceptor ariser Yeah Well, we'll see this all of this language will become clear when we watch inception. Yeah. if you I don't want to say that it's very prnt Queen Amadala. Queen Amad,u, Amadala,Queena and Papme. What you mean? Oh the bait. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well only in spending all this time with PadM U but that's actually Queen Ajar. So know Batman is Anakin Yeah. Except this isn't a love story. it's It did strike me re talking about D You know, when you're not enjoying it, this is definitely a thing, like we've talked about before where you just if something doesn't land, it sounds like it happened to you this time or that suddenly you just the threat come apart and you're just looking at everything. through the lens of this is a bit shit isn't it? and then you just se all the little bits of things being a bit shit. and this time There were things that whispered at me from the shadows, but I was like, no, I'm enjoying this. but it did strike me like the weird plan like of they invest so much time in Bruce Wayne Um I suppose because they know who he is and like It just doesn't pay off like we we're going to train him up We're going to spend weeks everybody, every day. this is all we do. and they're like we train yoursel standing in formation and he cuts your arm? You stand You just stand still, you let him do it because you're training him. You stay there in the dark until I say your name. Yeah Eactly. I've been there a week. It' like Do do you ever do any training for ourselves? No. like Bruce Wayne isn't the most important. And and They completely misunderstand him You know to the point that it is just a massive waste. And then not only is it just a big waste of time, but he burns down their whole amazing base as well. I just be so sad as Razoul just being like Youd can't believe this. We didn't recruit him in the end and he burned down our amazing secret base. We've been here secretly up here for years, thousandousands of years. Do you know how long it took to get all that wood up that stopping Rome. We stopped Rome. remember when we stopped Rome. Remember when we did the plague Yeah, that was us. C you think of anything bad? We that? They pl, Yeah yeah But then I guess I hadn't thought about this, but it is interesting. like I like that they don't really make it apparent in the film, but The fact that they tried to destroy Gotham previously and it was Thomas Wayne who stopped them. means that he would be on their radar. was it Was it him that stopped him or was it his death? Yeah, well yeah. I just wanted to clarify that because I think because there's a point in the movies in there we about One of the points in the movie is that he was trying to but his death only If he'd just died and he wasn't trying to do all the good stuff, I don' think anyone would have cared. and it was the fact that he was trying to It save the city. And then he was killed, and then he was like, we probably do probablyably should say that'y, shouldn't we? Yeah evenven though it's limping on. It's so strange, isn't it? Because I feel like the world has gotten worse since this film came out, deffinitely. But this hit on a prevailing attitude of the time, which I felt As someone who is, oh my God, only twenty four when it came out U Everything was a bit bad and but there's something worth saving and everything And now I just feel like I am signing up to the League of Shadows. I am I' be burning. I'ag We're fucked It's all just It's basically Gotham It's the same is God It's the same in the Sainsbury. There's four or five people who hang outside Sainsbury's and they're basically the same as all the I was trying to I wanted to say something funny that they say, but't I had nothing.. I was just doing Roberts New York. You you imagine Barath having a Batman Do you know I'm sure I talked about this Yovil had a Batman? No my God, I don't think I remember saying Batman well he had a ninja vigilante. But this is the real And this is a great he obviously hadn't paid enough attention to Batman because his mistake was he went on the point west the local news. I was like, yeah, I'll talk about being the Yovil ninja for sure. I just want to help people and people to feel safe. And then all the bad people in Yvil, of which there were many all knew who he was. So they forced him out out home. I just think by like constant egging ble of Yil. We were all watching points West. time Yeah It's Greg. Yeah Greg. you've been the ninja the whole time? I told you all about my de. Why didn't he beat them all up It's like he wasn't he didn't have any of the training or resources that Bruce washing. It was ultimately just a man in Yval who he basically brought some black clothes and Maybe a stitch. So he wasn't actually really good at fighting. Well, I know he might well have been really good at fighting. I don't know. I don't know that he was fighting people. I think he was hoping to play more on the fear side Yeah of like I want to scare people off if there's bad things happening. roll. If you're trying to get the fear going and someone invites you on points West I guess you're thinking If I go and I show up and I look intimidating. Yeah, this is what I need So I can imagine having b. Was he interviewed? Was he interviewed at night whilst standing? That's what I You need to insist Yeah I'm going to be in Silhoute I think it was outs interviewing interviewing him by like a roundabout at ten o'clock in the morning. Yeah just have to rush out. s going to lose a lot of the st around outside weather spoons you know we have back caves in Bath Do we? There are caves up on the university down, I can't remember which one is, but thereool. And there are caves on the inside of it. There's loads of like limestone and chalk mining and stuff that went on up. and I think that some of the caves that they either uncovered or were caused by it now they're locked off because there's a Yeah, like protected bat species inside. Oh, that's really cool. I didn't know that The running group that goes along the hills is called the Bath Bats. Oh right. and that's the reason why because they're not actually bats. Yeah. has no yeah. I'm glad you've explained that because it's got nothing to do with running whatsoever, which would annoy you. That's true they fly R famously they do and listen real good. I think that the the tunnels, the two tunnels on the to the two tunnels suddenly now puts me in the mind of a little bit of being Batman as well going into the backatcave. Do you know what I thought about Batman going to Batcave with the tumbler was how inconvenient it seems. you know there there's a person on my street doesn't have a batmobile but has it's a very thin street terr houses on both sides you can park on one side of the road and parking is a bit of a pain. I identify and it's okay. I'd rather they didn't introduce permit parking around me, but we'll see what happens. And there's someone who is on the right hand side of the road, so opposite where the cars park has taken a chunk out of their garden which runs sideways to the to the road because of the formulation of the houses and then they reverse into this very small space. and they have to do like a twenty point turn to avoid hitting the cars which are parked on the other side. And I always think, is this small convenience worth this for you? And similarly, I thought With the danger of having to boost jump through a waterfall every time you wanted to leave or enter the house?, Is that worth it? Just build a little ramp Well, I think as you identified, convenience is the enemy of ical and mystery and like I don't know. If anyone is following him and see, you know what I mean? It's not like he's losing anyone I know, but also you'd have to at least come back later with something that you could know That's true that you could make the gap. I mean, I think it's cool. wouldouldn't you think it was fun every time getting to press the boost button and do it It's also it looks like say on burnout. there was these two you could gob up a multi story car park burnout paradise and jump to the one next to it. I probably got the jump right eight out of ten times. Yeah. And those two times I'd have to go all the way back around. Yeah. Right. att some point he's going to get that ch. Exactly that's I' thinking. Like Do it muscle memory ninety nine times out of a hundred If there's a jumping crash team racing, I can do it. Yeah. one time I. If you muck that up It's not just you have to start again. He hits the waterfall presumably and the tumblr plummets down into a crevice and everyone and he dies. he just dies bor he stuck down there You've made me think about the Tumblr, which I think is brilliant and I love this b. Did we see it in real life Yeah ye. we did D with all of the costumes Yeah saw the shelff's costume. We did. saw the back nipples. tell your dad about that U I think I did actually yeah I' got phot of it And all the costumes, not just Michelle Pif's come the costumes, just to clarify that. Yeah. But yeah, I love the tumblr and obviously I think the batmobile And bat vehicles maybe are just a thing An exciting part of a new what was that was the Yeah. there's the suit and there's really the but I enjoyed that With this being an origin story, we get to kind of enjoy Bruce Wayne enjoy becoming Sure Batman. like youah not like all the gadgets and stuff. all that stuff is super cool and usually You're just you happening across Batman after he's done all that stuff. Yeah, I don't really find my grapple very cool anymore. Whereas he's like, I need to be able to fly disiscovering what he needs to do, you know, the things that he needs love I like that dynamic of him proposing a problem or posing a problem to Lucius Fox and him ing up with a solution and him discovering the batmobile What's that I like you wouldn't like that. I think that I really enjoyed how I don't know, maybe it's been done by other stories, but I did enjoy the fit of the Razogul traraining Sool and how that was clearly like a prototype version of the skills and even equipment that Batman would later have. And I don't know if that's kind of baked into the later stories. Obviously, I don't think it's in the very original stories, but whether that's been done before and I like that. and then the second step, there's a convenience to it, but I think in the end it's just quite a smart way to put the two things together. graduating from that to being back at Wayne teech and just having all, you know just it's pretty much just Jose Bonds Q's lab, isn't it? Yeah S good. something may be missing from this movie for me. and I wonder if I think I think it might be missing from The whole trilogy actually is in my understanding. Batman's thing is being the world's greatest detective. Yes. veryery little detective. In this movie, I think he takes some pictures of the judge that we barely , you know, see, we certainly don't see him doing it. yeah, he does like He just seems to know stuff uh like he's kind of figuring something out, but he figures it out so quickly and it's not there's no good detecting done. It just feels like that he's much more of a kind of vigilante Yeah, just go out. And it's quite boring on film though, isn't it to watch and I find it quite boring in the games. You'd be like, all, I'll put my bat vision on and I'll look at the heat map of this att detecting time's a generalization. again big fan of like seven. I just love detectives detecting stuff and it doesn't have to be boring. I get like, Just looking at getting you know watching someone use some night vision goggles to spy on a conversation or whatever is quite dull. But like Unraveling a mystery can be super compelling and it's actually I guess There's a decision they made. likeike should We going to go down the detective route with Batman? No, we're going go down the kicks everybody. The Batman ast some good detecting in that one, is it? Then the Riddler's the bad guy obviously in that I think that lends itself. Oh The Batman being the little in the RPAs movie, yeah. Yeah there is a good detective out. The Riddles. ye it was there's no it doesn't really do much in the Burton films, either or in Schumachher movies in terms of detecting. does a little bit in the first one where Again, it's a really I've watched this Rvy Cot recently It's a really shit plan that the Joker has, which is to infect all of the cosmetics of Gotham with like poisonous laughing gas that makes everyone laugh and then die Yeah And Batman does some detecting on how he's done it and what products you can and can't mix But that's the extent of the detecting in that film. You you you are right. There is evenven when he's talking to the police and Gordon at the end, there is a sense of how is he going to help? It's not by I'm not going to figure this stuff out. It's like I'm going to take this guy on. like that's the vibe. And in fact, like I don't know, I feel like in other movies because that's really my kind and maybe games Bruce Wayne is super smart and And he's not really in this U in this movie. he's he's not not unintelligent, but you know, like he gets Given the antidote And he sort of I think Lucius Fox kind of explains how he got it together and he's like am I supposed to understand what this me. Yeah, that's really true.'s I think Lcius Fox is doing a load of the things that Bruce Wayne might do in other stories. Yeah And's just I'm not saying it's good or bad. it's just interesting because obviously they've taken an established character who was known as the world's greatest detective and I just thinking well That's not so important in our movies. Our movies are more about The things he's feeling, like why is he fighting this fight He's a man who of the characters sort of virtues, isn't he? Like that's rather than extraordinary intellect. We haven't talked about Gary Oldman. He's great. I mean, I think he's great. I enjoyed him. He's very He's just very warm, isn't he I love I love how excited he gets when he successfully shoots down that pillar Yeah like come on Yes. Like he's so pleased about it like a dad who's just scoreding FIFA. The way he goes into the like gunnery position he is so like out of his dept. Yeah I think it's really' brilliantly active. It is. Brilliantly active from Gary Oldman. Yeah Maybe he didn't know the chair was going to do that. is' mical? I remember watching an interview with Gary Oldman, and I don't know which Batman film is from. where he was asked, Gary Oldman was asked, what's the best piece of direction you've ever had and he mentions a piece of direction that he got from Christopher Nolan where Christopher Nolan simply said to him There's more at stake which enabled Gary Oldman to just turn the dial of intensity up on his performance a little bit. And I was watching this film trying to trying to trying to think could it have been aene this film I don't know which scene it Beuse he doesn't reveal which scene of the Batman trilogy it was I couldn't pick up on any scene in this in this where I thought it could be that because he's quite he's very nice isn't he at the beginning to young child Bruce Wayne and Bruce Wayne? when when his family murdered good guy And there is a line, I think that Right at the end of the third film. Batman. makes reference to that time where You know, he comforted him after his parents had just been killed He has you know, where it's Gay Ooldman has that He's like a the serious black warmth to him in this kind of role. Really similar time actually. Like this film is older than I think it is. Ass Ban was two thousand four. So it yeah, it've been exactly the same. That's kind of crazy. And obviously Christian Bale can look sort of rugged and leading man still but is I guess in his fifties and Um Gary Oldman is in I mean, he deliberately looks terrible in slow horses, but he's also I think obviously. what I'm saying is everyone in this film is twenty years older than they now. It's crazy and some of them are dead Which is mad. Yeah, who's dead? Rooker Hastead? Well yeah Terrible times. any are there any dogs in it? They will be dead Was there a dog in it No, no, the dog got shot in the last movie but that dog was dead away. Hey Jeoffrey was in it Yeah, Joffy for Gave the Throne. Gleason. Jack Leesason. Yeah. He's really good, man. He is really good. And I wondered whether like I was trying to piece together if any of what makes him good in this makes him good as Geoffrey. I think maybe just being good at acting. That's what it is. Sorry, what is acting? I've been trying to figure this out for the whole podcast. you guys are talking about actors, what you? So I thought it's sad that we't know his name, but the kid who played very youngruce Wayne was I thought it was was good Yeah. But then I think that with Gleason, you can just tell that he's I don't know he's just more in the scene. I think that Talking about performance sometimes gives me that tang of when people say, A they're riding. A, know because I don't know what I'm talking about but there's like a believability. And you do sometimes get that sense that film kids are sort of halfway looking offs screen at their parents or somebody sayaying am I doing a good job? please. Please love me again. Yeah. D didn't get that with Cason also thought Katie Homes was really good and I remember being really disappointed in the Dark Kight when she was recast as Yeah, she wasn't recast Rachel was recast as we've recast. I don't know what happened there, mayaybe you'll look into it before we watch the next movie, but I used to know it was going whichich is annoying, but now I've forgot. I like the bit when she slaps him for being That was good ad twice twice. It's a whole good bit. Obviously that's a core relationship for the Batman throughout this film. and At the end, I thought it was quite mean of her to say Uh like This is your mask. This one here and that kid I knew is gone forever. I wonder if it'll ever not forever. but I wonder if we'll come back and I thought that's quite crushing. And then they like hold hands and walk around the ruins of manner, but I thought the damage has been done. I wouldn't talk to her after she said that to me. Yeah, but he would' be the b J I don't know if you think of all of us, I am one hundred percent the most likely to be Batman. Go on Um because I have a temper and I can do j Jitsy. Well, they didn't know about the juicy. that does change things No It's the largeisy of other the other rubbish bit. William, Ju Jutu.. Yeah Your enemies will not wait for you to be ready ks him after he just comes through the door. The enemies also won't shout out which style he needs to fight in. I did think was stupid. I want to hear your case for being Batman. I didn't say that I thought that I'd be Batman. Okay. I thought Rob would be Batman Robt B Yof Pat. I think I'd never be Ovil Batman. Rob's the Batman of his You know, two two houses Yeah in the middle of Cin fields. Like one of us has to do it, I'll do it the problem is my neighbor would definitely beat me up Really ye. is really big. You'd have to out detect him I could do that. Yeah we go. Buts right, That's what it is um two things. One, I think this is forgivable because it's going to be a part of the next movie t the same time kind of unforgivable that Bruce Wayne basically his first opportunity just gives away that it's him to Rachel. You know, like I really like the sort of character struggle that he has with being an incredibly benevolent man who's using all his means to try and make the world a better place, but he has to pretend to be this billionaire people That scene after he doesn't buy the hotel. Yeah where he meets her is quite painful. and you and I do think that's like one of the elevated moments of the film is you realize that he is pained at having to keep up this pretense when he actually wants to be genuine in front of his But then basically the next opportunity he's like. And I don't I also don't know why he doesn't just say why does he have to do it in a cool way? Yeah like Because as a kid there's Jack Gleason' there at the same time. He can't just be like It's me Bruce Wayne. Yeah. what she then says Bruce. So Pason is probably like Bruce comes back and he's like I' going gonna have to kill this kid now Yes. Why I would have said Bruce if kill anyone, I don' know Um I did think that the I felt that they the final battle is just a bit disappointing I don't think the train is a good place for a face off quite narrow and I just think that the idea The idea his idea is you will Gary Oman, youd go and definitely destroy the bridge because if you don't destroy the structure because if you don't My plan is quite bad actually and I'm sending this train into the one place it shouldn't be. Like he makes it so that the train can't be stopped And I'm like, why not Try and stop whyy not have the two plans? Why not try and stop the train And fight you've got the backup of if the train can't be stopped, don't worry. You he wouldn't be able to say the line Who said anything about stopping it. So what about the lines and the deliveries? That's true. I guess's a real showman Batman. Yeah the most by Batman. Stehven Batman Yeah. The great Batman. The most efficient way of doing it would just be to drive the batmobile himself and blow up the tracks. sureurely. Yeah That's a good point. I don't need to fight him at all. Th then wouldn't know. Why any would say anyway? Be it's auto driving the whole time. just just auto shoot. You just made me imagine the scene As you just described, he takes the batmobile, he goes and he blows up the struts and he just says to himself should have been aware of your surroundings. just saying things to himself. I'm not even trying to stop the train. Yeah. Exactly. It' just he normal Bruce Wayne voice because no one else is around. Yeah doesn't have to do the city b. Mbe does Razar Gul's side of the conversation as well imagines that thing Anyway. And then he's going to rebuild Wayne Manor brick by brick. Yeah w. We've forgotten the coolest line, which is I'm not gonna to kill you But I don't have to save you either. just That's a fine line. I feel like he is killing. I think that that's quite a big yet. like for Batman Rw, that's a huge that's a big thing to say. Like that's different to I don't kill anybody. What I'm saying is I would argue he has killed him th. There are big loopholes. That that's what I'm saying the time has killed loject. Yeahah yeah. Yeah' being senseless and destroyed the track H the opportunity to save someone and don't Well, I believe legally, yes, you. Well, I feel like if you've created all the conditions through which they will die, and then don't save God. I simply strapped him into the car and put a brke on the accelerator and the wall There was a moment where I could have I chose not to the wall Yeah, he's definitely down. Ras Gall was pleased with it though almost wasn't he Lilliam Neeson, he's like,' an acceptant finally learned to do what' is necessary. He's beaten me. Yeah there was almost like a quiite gone moment That's what I wanted to say. I thought he was a way better Jedi in this than he is in. when he's a Jedi. Wow.'s that's a good t. so good at training. has things to say. I know Robbie didn't love the montage, but I did like it and like I just think his presence is much. Interesting. He doesn't get to do any of that stuff and all the training he does inst stalls is so what shit. It's because this is a much, much better philone stll But it's just interesting that me Bruce Wayner to put with Jar Job Bink. I think Quion is more problematic than Raz as well with with his weird betting and sort of I can't save your mother. I'm gonna separate you from your mother who must remain a slave. And the Jedi are happy to kill everyone. This's basically the League of Shadows ay. Yeah, we ha't talked about Killian Murphy much Also not as much as I thought you don't I don't love his character or's it's a weird he's fucking nast, We weird like mid level boss. This is is the first time I've seen Killian Murphy in anything and he terrified me. Really L his eyes just Yeah, dont I'm not saying I think he's bad. I mean, just the character. He sort of occupies a weird space because he's kind of Well he's just the middle man and hes he's kind, I don't know. I find it a bit