Looking Ahead to Insomnia

Thank you for listening to Redhirt Cinema Club. For access to two bonus episodes every month as well as our newsletter, The Civilian Observer, you can support us at patreon. com forward toash Redhirt Cinema Club thing takes you to places you never thought you'd go With flavors like cool mint, Zin is built for this moment And for the road ahead. all from America's number one nicotine pouch brand findind in wherever nicotine products are sold Warning, this product contains nicotine, nicotine is an addictive chemical. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to, or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize With Alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently. withith offline maps and on trail navigation. download the free app today and make the most of your summer with All Trails. Hi, I'm Greg Richard. It's hot out there. Chill out with a new air conditioner from PC Richard and Sun. thousandousands in stock, every size, every BTU. pllus, we guarantee the lowest prices. PC Richard and Sun Company you can trust Hello and welcome to Red Sh Cinema Clubber podcast about fandom and watching movies with friends the next couple of months, a podcast about three early middle aged straight white guys having earnest opinions on the films of Christopher Nolan You either die a Star Trek podcast or keep making episodes long enough that you end up doing this. It's memento first. Enjoy I guess I've already told you about my condition. Only every time I see you. You don't remember where you've been or what you've just done. I can't make new memories. Everything just fades What's the last thing you do remember? My wife That's sweet. Dying You really want to get this guy, don't you? My wife deserves vengeance This guy, what are you gonna do? You' kill him. Somebody's gotta pay, Lenny. Somebody always pays You have to be very careful Wander around, playing detective. Maybe you should start investigating yourself. This guy is so dangerous, he's gonna kill me. Who is he? What do you want from me? I want my life back! I think someone's trying to get me to kill the wrong guy. You can question everything. You can never know anything for sure. There are things you know for sure. You can't trust him. Even if you get revenge, you're not gonna remember it. You're not even gonna know that it happened. Wh did this to you You did You don't know who you are Hello and welcome back to Red Shirt Cinema Club. I am your host, Nathan Dyam and I'm joined today by Robert Pearson. Hello and David Jackson. Hello and Robert Pearson And David Jackson. Hello I'm going to keep going on this joke because today is our first episode in our Middle Aed white Gu do podcasting about film series on Christopher Nolan We've actually been in that for a long time. That is true. Well we've been really sliding intimately. Really have Join the makeup we're doing this and we're going to be watching all or nearly all of Christopher Oolan's movies and talking about them, starting with The first one that came to mainstream attention, which was two thousands Mmento. Yes. starring Mike from Neighbourors and that guy from the Matrix And that girl from the Matrix as well. Yeah, she's a lady, ye That is correct. And As flipping as I might be about it, the thing which annoyed me when I re watchatched this film yesterday is that I really liked it and the only things I've got to say about it are quite sincere and serious. I know o I Wait did you make the bingo card?? No I should have made the bingo card. The other thing Before I get into when you both first watch this film and what your impressions of it were, I can already see where the tension I'm just looking at Rob's body language. I can already see where the tension iss going to emerge in this entire series. Am I so Yes, yes You are so. Maybe you'll surpris it I got out my DVD. I bought this on DVD back in the day and it's not available anywhere for free that I could see on streaming or on a streaming service that I already're not free if you pay for them. but you know, as part of our own existing collection I've got access to. put on I swallowed down the whatever it is, five sevven six I. and it looked completely fine. I thought DVD's are going to make a big comeback. and was I did get trapped in the menu, which really annoyed me. I haven't dealt with a DVD menu for a long time and I went to look at the supplementary features and I had to turn my entire PS five off get back to the top menu. But apart from and I really tried literally every button on the jual sent. You tried square did square gets you to the menu, but then if you press top menu, it just restarts whatever anyyway it's fine. Maybe that's like a clever meta menu design. Oh yeah a Mmento DVD. Maybe it is, yeah. Like this is where you want it to be, right? This is where you want it to be. Don't think it is, right. This is where you wanted to be. And there was an interview on there Um, with Christopher Nolan talking about Mento with a film critic called Elvis Mitchell who has a radio program, which I listen to every now and again or podcast is very good's called the Treatment. and was it upset me very much. He was talking about the nature of memory and I was thinking, Yes this is all very interesting. Christopher Oolan basically looks the same as he does now. He's not changed. he wears suits and a shirt and he has got the same hair like medium length combed back But he was talking about making the film and Talking about not being able to make new memories is what happens to Guy Peerce's character in the film. and then having chunk of your life which feels discreet. and he was just sort of saying it made him think about memory as you go through life. And this is the quote. And as someone who's just coming up to thirty, that really made me think about Oh God. And it just made me want to be sick everywhere just everywhere, and I can't stress enough, he looks the same as he looks permanently forty five years old. Now as a twenty nine year old then Yeahah, one hundred percent. And he's not talking like somebody he's fucking twenty n. anyway it's Christopher Olen I When did you first see Mento? It was a big cool deal at the time Yeah. I wasn't aware of how big a deal it was. I saw it because my parents were just watching it. or my mum and my stepdad were watching it in the lounge U so I didn't get to see the whole thing. I remember. walking in maybe twenty minutes into the film and being intrigued by the structure of it and quite enjoying the satisfaction of slowly being able to piece this story. together I didn't have too much of a memory of it to be honest other than oh yeah, that film that that that guy And literally he became famous, I was like, o I remember he made that film, didn't he? That was his first one, that one with the guy who keeps forgetting things So yeah, I remember enjoying it U But I don't think I think this is the first time I've actually watched it all the way through start to finish. Interesting. finish to start It's a movie you literally unfinishes the film. That's a clever film bro joke that I just made. I don't think you get ready for that. Is that on the Bingo card? Clever time bro joke. Joke. Yeah. yeah, smmug asides like an alarm should go off We should have started with this last film and worked our way backwards. We should That would have been a b in the middle we should have watched Tennet forever. Oh, I've not seen tenenet. I' not seen. I don't know. Tenet moves forward and backwards. Oh my go. I like the word. You see what they did there Yes I mean, they literally it is what they did. Yeah. You know, they had the you can look at it on the way back machine, the website for Mento was called onntomom or whatever it is it's Ontomem. com. Well, I remember Rob was just shaking his head. I remember Rob back then this stuff was still clever It's different. I remember I assume you're gonna ask me about my memories I am moment. I was gonna. Yeah, I well the moment I already did. It was the first. DVD I ever bought. Wow. really? I bought it before I had a DVD player. Yes. Why? I don't know He's just getting ready. I just like I getting ready. I think like I don't have any memory of like hearing about memento. We've got to stopp talking about memory. I can't stop making the jokes. Okay. We are talking about remembering our memories. So conj you that I'm going you who's in the wrong here.ure. I don't recall, it's a different word for it. being excited about it I don't remember hearing much about it, but I do remember being in game in Yovil and seeing it on the shelf and thinking That looks as a sixteen year old sounds so c. My duty is to buy this movie. Yes. And so I bought it and I kind of hoped that it would parents into buying a DVD player. but it didn't. They held off for several more months at least on buying a DVD player. So I was forced to watch it on our home computer. or at a desk And I did do that. and I absolutely loved it instantly, I thought it was You know the most incredible movie you'd ever seen, The premise was so clever the way it presents itself is so clever. and I watched it several times. Then I did get a DVD player and I watched the DVD on a TV and I still liked it. And I have never one thing, Nath, I'm sure this was on your DVD as well. I'm sure we have the same one. L it has and I think this this is such a pointless thing I've never done it. You can watch the film. from start to finish chronologically, Mento Mori, I believe it's called like the function on the DVD and I just thought at the time and now, like what is the point of that And but also I am intrigued because I have an idea of how the movie would play out if you watched it chronologically. And obviously I think that it would be just quite weird and a bit shit because you just see this guy continually forgetting everything and that would be not very fun. So I don't know why they put that interesteresting. Yeah I thought the same thing because I actually don't know if that is on my TVD I assume it is. I didn't see it yesterday, but as we've discovered, I'm may not very good at navigating that y I remember at the time that that was spoken about. and again Partly, I think because I was younger and less cynical. Partly because I think the film and internet culture of the last twenty, twenty five years has just intensified this kind of discussion And the thing I wanted to say to Rob was just like, we don't know how Rob feels about the film. I don't know how he feels about it now, but the big eye roll about like film b jokes and cleverness or just that he was And I was watching that Nolan interview for kind of signs of, you know, like smuke young man. and there wasn't really any. and I think The film is definitely in the same way that The matrix from a very similar time one year before was dealing with ideas of consciousness and reality and that whole idea of Like I think you probably joked about this yourself, Rob in terms of, you know, going to school and being like, yeah, but what if we are in a simulation? Do know what I mean? L and you just it hits you with that age, but I also think that it was our cultural age where these things were just more abroad and fresher and hit the moment we talked about this with the Matrix as well the specific kind of cardboard DVD boxes that Warning used to put out And Mento was a big early DVD release And I think that was where film culture lived And just the what I was going to say was You can look at the I went to the website on the way backack machine and it just it was such a little window onto a particular time. I think you can look at the website on the DVD. I don't know how it works, but when you go back on the way back machine, it's like, Very, very simple and it says like enter flash site. And three entries down, it's got down no flash. which is such a memory of like you may not have the thing you need to actually run this website. and it's like fucky, I do remember that all the time. I remember flash going defunct. but So the functionality of the technology that people are using to watch films, The DV seemed very new, they seemed very kind of internet age and they and the fact that they could run backwards or seamlessly move scenes around was very interesting. Yeah. Maybe not to the point of the movie because I think that there is something about the experience of losing your memory sort of compliments of like putting you in the protagonist shoes by not showing you something in a straightforward fashion so you're kind of put into some kind of subjective headspace of being able to follow reality as smoothly as you might normally, but also it's just more engaging as a viewer to piece together in new information is being given by the scene K knowing that it is running in reverse order I also watched some of the DVD extras on the DVD. It was like As you said, DVDs were new and it was just cool. I just like you I thought like you just have to do it. You got to look all the DVDs pay for this. Yeah like I'm getting stuff. And I just remember being struck I mean, I hope I'm right about this because I also watched an interview that's on there. Maybe it's that interview where it just became apparent that their movie had been independently like funded, like they were they had sought funding. I was I was just blown away by guy had This idea, which to me felt at the time extremely clever Obviously his brother wrote the story and then they should just really quickly say that his brother Jonathan or Jonah who is also a director and producer, does more TV. He did the West World TV adaptation. Rob. I think he's involved in the fallout TV adaptation and had done other series previously. He's involved in the Batman movies and wrote a short story which was eventually published in Esquire magazine which He told to Christopher Nolan during a car journey and Christher Oran asked if could write script based on it and both things sort of arrived at the same day We' how to finish at the same time. Sorry. No, was just and I just thought it was an amazing story these kind of relatively unknown people, certainly completely unknown to me had hit upon this really interesting story and a really interesting way of telling it and they had gone out and got funding and, you know, the lady from the Matrix was in it and it was like, holy shit it felt like a real You know, I had known Carri Anne Loss, we should now we're not Yes of course,es. it was me, I set that tone. bad tone. Right. But I was being sixteen year old me for who she was probably at the time, the lady from the Matrix. But yeah I just felt like Exciting It was like this isn't just out of the big Hollywood machine. it's like some guys and I'm sure that they're from I'm sure that they're, you know, well perpetually in their forties. so like probably I think they were well connected quite well connected backgrounds, but still it was like Holy shit some guys have just they've had this great idea and they've made it. That's so cool. actually because I watched His first film this week which I'd never seen before following which was interesting. And at the end to the There's a police character and it's a better performer and performance that I think exist in the two lead roles in the film, three lead roles in the film And I looked up who the actor was and it's his' their uncle, Jonathan and Chris his uncle, who who was just an actor forever, but was married to Do you remember the slightly sexy Nazi lady from a lower low with a blonde hair. right So that's Christopher Oolanal. And that's the most amazing thing I've learned. That's coolk on IMDB trivia. No, that was me looking at Wikipedia and seeing who put that on IMDB triv. Yeah contribute. Yeah or maybe this Well you should contribute because I think, you know, you really you're on the trivia you. Oh, that's good But so let's get down to our experience of watching it U this week, Rob what did you think of the film Yeah I watched it. I watched it quite late at night after After I'd watched the state of play. Okay. Oh my go, which finished about half past eleven. Oh you must have been so tired. That's when I started watching it weir. But you're like an owl Well wise No. I just shit out. I think think I think all Christopher Nolan movies are who very well made, aren't they? They're good. They're good movies I I just find it very tiring, a very exhausting watch. It requires so much of you. Yes. It does. Sometimes I just want to sit down and watch it every time there's a scene. I'm like fuck sayakes concentrate. They just keep coming Ccentrate now Yeah this are yeah the end of this scene L by the by the end of it, like the structure of it is so Relentless Yeah I felt quite bruised after watching it And really the story I mean, if you just told it chronologically, you mentioned it at the start Dave, I think it'd be boring film. But that's just a genius of it. I there's a couple of elements that are left a little bit ambiguous as well, which again, I'm sure he's intentional like is Samy Jank kissed? does he actually is he an actual person or is he just you know, some kind of trauma response that that Lenny has created to try and deal with whatever event has led to him having this short term memory loss and and I found those bits most interesting. and I think it's very interesting looking at and recognising the themes that have cropped up in Nolan's work throughout his career seeing some of them seeded here or at least It feels like Nolan's career is some shower thoughts that he's had as an eighteen year old told with increasingly large budgets as we go forward. Wh that is rude. Like the You're such a nolland apologist. I don't even like half his films. but for better reasons than that Well You can see you can see inception here quite a lot. Like right at the end he basically incepts himself Yucky because he knows he's going to forget and he just places something in his own mind that he knows is going to lead to a certain course of action that he's going to do later on. That's true And there's, you know, there's lots of that There's lots of his movies that you can see the origin of the idea happening happening in this film.' a particular sensibility at work. Yeah I could almost say that he's an artist and he's returning And he just he has an obsession with time and non linearity and and playing with how And playing with the structure of how stories are told, and I think that's all very for sure was I was exhausted by the end of this film th. And that's fair. And I was pleased it was over And I did struggle at times to to really make sense of of what was actually going on. But I think some of that's intentional. I think, you know, he's an unreliable, probably the most unreliable narrator you can get, Leonard But I still wasn't clear on some of the aspects of the story, like whether or not and Joe Pantoliano's character, whoses name al for Teddy. Teddy. He was an undercover cop, right? He was a real c was was a real he was a real cop, but He's not actually doing any police work in this film.'s just No he's just using Lenny to do some bad things. Yeah. And Natalie's using Lenny to do some bad things. Yes, it's almost like Lenny falls into two plots, one of which is there is a man who genuinely helps him to get revenge I guess the ultimate irony of the film is that the that that quest for vengeance has happened and it's meaningless because the memory can't be retained. from I think that delivering that with that kind of polaroid of him being happy at the end is like a sort of really damning, there's something really unsetling about that it's just our momententss fisish way. But then I was just going to say and then Teddy starts to, I guess in his mind him keep Lenny motivated or happy by repeatedly giving him more people to go after, but then getting rich and having benefits and then comes up against someone in Natalie who gets involved in one of those plots because it's her boyfriend who is killed and she understands what's happening and basically turns Lenny against Teddy successfully. Yeah, it's it's very cleverly told and I enjoyed the And I was trying to work out which side of this moral What ethical andary, I don't know if you know if it is that. Just a philosophical thought experiment, I guess where Christopher Nolan is landing on the whole sort of memory versus fact thing and Lenny repeats quite a lot of the time through the film you know I used to be an investigator, an insurance investigator or when police are investigating a crime, they will record facts. They won't rely on memory because memory is unreliable. But then and you repeatedly think says, o You know, it doesn't matter if I don't remember getting revenge. I will just know it And the fact that it's happened is the thing that's important. reallyally, I think we as is revealed at the end like desespite the fact that they are unreliable, the memories of things are all we have ultimately Yeah, yeah. I that was that was quite a bleak. thought, I think and, you know He uses these he uses these grand storytelling devices to dig into those often quite unsettling and upsetting facets of humanity, I think. J because you mentioned it before I jump over today, I was going to say I think the scene that you've kind of bw up his My favorite. I didn't make many notes during this just a page and that was like the absolute one, which is there's something really desolate and unsettling about the moment where he's asked. why you doing this if you won't remember. And there's a sense of kind of he kind of says if you close your eyes, the world is still there. That idea that even if you aren't perceiving or reacting to something, in your own received reality, then there is like an objective world out there within which these things are true. and it's almost that kind of sense of of justice and rightness, I guess appealing to some kind of constancy outside of our own sort of temporary consciousness or whatever and And it's a really stark kind of philosophical idea. It reminds me quite a lot of the end of I'm skipping far ahead in the pod, but the end of inception. bringing everything that happens in that film to rest on that one idea of whether something is happening for real or whether it's encased in a dream and that kind of really like there that kind of urge is provokes an unusually strong emotional response in me, both of them just the idea that these things could only be internal is some kind of horrible tragedy. I think it's Wh why I like this film much better than I remembered I did, but Dave, what did you think of watching it this time? I absolutely loved it. I think I can't I just think I have decided long ago that it's brilliant and I just saw its brilliance again when I watched it this time. I think that it's funny, Rob, you said the first time you watched it, how you'd sort of like come in at a middle point and you know saw some of it and it feels like I kind of agree with I think I agree with almost everything you said. like it's one of the only films where you can't You can't just watch some of it. You won't you won't fully understand what's going on. You can't, you know which is sort of also related to its subject material in a way. like you can't be told about the bits you've missed because they just won't quite be real for you and you won't get the whole You need all the parts to sort of fully get the brilliance of it. In fact, I was watching it With my partner and she was on her laptop for the first two scenes. and I was just sat there thinking, well you that's it. not gonna you not going get you're not going to understand any of it. And then she was asking me like, who's that or like, do we know if we met that, why whoo's that on the phone? And I was like, this this is the whole movie. And that's what I think is so I think it's a really interesting idea anyway, just the bare bones of like, what would it be be like to have, you know, in the basic level, what would it be like to have to be unable to make short term memories. It's not something I'd ever thought about before. And it doesn't sound terrible and then I could start to see how terrible it is, but the I think it's just really genius that they found a mechanic to you understand what it's like. you can you only ever know as much as the character knows. reallyally certainly during a scene. like I really like that you just wake up at the kind of end of the film, o someone's died, whoo is it? I don't know. then you go back a little bit and it's like, okay. so We're at a motel somewhere. Oh, that's the guy who's going to be killed in a minute. like what's you know, you're piecing it together. And I think that it's Oviously, u Nola movies are sort of it's a running joke about how they always have a kind of a time thing in them. But I would argue that this is like And obviously we're right at the start and I can't remember all of the movies, but I think this is the most perfect brilliant example of it where it's really necessary because it's not just a cool thing, a cool way of telling a story. It's actually a way of making you understand what the character is experiencing in a way We said if you watch these things chronologically, it would be just kind of a weird story about a guy who's fooling himself into doing some pretty dark stuff. and it would make no sense and it wouldn't be enjoyable. Whas uncovering the characters and himself along with him is I think it's just so smart. And I really, really enjoyed it. I don't love every part of it. You know, I don't think that it's just a ten out of ten movie, but I do think it's brilliant I had a nice experience of I enjoyed it When I first watched it, again, I like was at university and so probably the perfect age for You know, I was talking about that kind of era of film culture and I was reading Total Film and Empire magazine and it was a film a young British filmmaker is kind of championed, especially by Total Film, I think. and they had a good line on interesting drama or just the indie movies coming up and It was well reviewed and it just had that kind of edge to it. And around that time, it was the Matrix, It was a kind of independent cinema from the US had carried on and it kind of felt in that tradition, it felt like a cool film And I think over time The In my memory, having not watched it and then having watched Nolan's other kind of more sophisticated films like some of them not enjoyed some others. I had kind of filed this away as having a bit of a gimmick and and that not being so much like of it being quite of its time, a bit clever, a bit kind of young internet culture favourite and watching it was really pleasantly surprising just that that was unfair, I think to the film. There's lack of a freshness again, it does it is quite demanding, I guess, but I thought it looked great. I think one of the things that probably benefited from is me having watched his first film, which is sixteen Millimeters seventy mininutes ack and white and the performances are not strong really, the central two or at least when you compare it to what you're getting from the three leads of memento and It's quite a similar story. Following is about a writer, maybe sort of slightly autobiographical, kind of young creative in his twenties who is looking for stories and he does it by following people. There's a thread narrative in the same way that there's the black and white scenes in Memento where he's giving an interview to somebody, might be a therapist. It turns out to be a policeman am During the following, someone turns it around on him, realizes he's being followed, and then he's kind of caught in a noirish web with this other guy who is kind of a counterpart to him It's called Cob, which is the name which she reads is in and a sort of femfatile woman U obviously Femal Fematle lady womoman and The So lots of the kind of elements or the basic Not really structure, but the thoughts are in play to your point, Rob about like themes which will recur. So seeing similar but then Guy Pierce and when we like running joke that we talkalk about how good looking, famous film stars are He's like obscenely Hsome. He's in ridiculous shape his L his whole physique is just shredded and lean and it's just really unfair to compare him to the like the quite interesting, probably in real life very good looking people that were in Nolan's first film But there's just something about pretending to be a person on film which I think some actors and performers just get and others don't. There's something about Guy Pice, no matter what he's doing, where I was it was just slightly more believable. So everything felt heightened, I guess, because I'd just seen that film There was something about the soundtrack. and about The the the overall concet of the structure, which I did still find a bit of its time I guess, but Um, It's just and there was a period in the movie where I was like, there's a lot of this to go. And you know, the novelty and the enjoyment and the rush of understanding what's going on in terms of the whole structure is kind of worn off, but then there's enough there to pull you through. So yeah, I really enjoyed it U and I thought to your point, Rob about Really it's quite a simple story. I guess there's that difference between story and plot between events and how they are arranged? You know every joke is a very simple story and the payoff comes through the juxtaposition of different elements to make an effect whatever. And the same here, like realizing that the ultimate fact was he had decided to in a world full of people trick this person, the person who' tricked him is himself, that he actually was on top of the facts at some point and then decided not to be is a great thing to drop at the end I think the thing I enjoyed most about it overall was A sense of like Um And it will pop up in, I think, inception and probably interstellar, but human beings And let's be clear, men, I in Nolan's movies experiencing something which is not really relatable going through a wormhole or being seven levels deep in a science fiction dream machine being a Masked vigilante. billionaire And I think that well let'ess maybe that willll come when we come about it'll be. it'll be interesting by that. But but I guess what I mean is where then these really specific like existential crises or porances are kind of come across. And so like in memento, it is that idea of is it worth being alive if you can't form any new memories? film attacks it in a few different ways. and the two scenes which I found most Usetting. I thought Stehven Tublowsky was fucking brilliant in his film. good. Really earnest. He can that Sammy. Yeah. And obviously he's from Groundhog Day He's Ned Ryyson. Yeah. and he's lots of other things as well, he's been in lots of films, but H performances like there's nothing it' He's a comedic actor or we can be, but he's very straight up in there. This devastating scene where he' just repeatedly injecting his wife with an insulin Both of their eyes, both of I don't know who the actor is who plays his wife, but their eyes are so sad throughout all of those scenes. And also then when is she doing it? When he's in like a home J sort of just like a dog, like looking at anyone walking past just in case. they know him and he doesn't know if they know him and he's just And talking about the kind of the era that we're in and about clever films, there was that shot in the black and white sequence of him being in the Uh, what did you call it? hospital the Yeah medal hospital where a doctor walks past and just for likees a few frames frames. It's Sky Pierce, which is very fight Club. It's very kind of Tyler Durden It's almost it's almost ers into the explicit there right what what I mean, what do you think' going on there Is Sammy a separate man to Leonard? I'm not yeah, I'm not sure if there was ever firm basis for One or the other, though I do believe that his wife survived and that he killed her. Teddy Teddy says that Sammy was a real person, but he didn't have a wife and you know, so I think that Sammy is a real person and he's he's used of him too graphed this story. like Cloud and Zack from Final Fantasy seven. That's what I was thinking. right Exactly someomeone who's been through a similar thing. Yes, a precursor to your own story So those scenes were Stehven Tubbask, I thought, yeah, brilliant. and And then the scene with Carri Anne Moss where she leaves the room and he's frantically trying to horr. the fact thatorr punched day. And she just waits in the car and knows that I unbelieve it And when you get to the end of the film and you realize the actual positioning of she is fighting a war with Teddy through Lenny and capable she is, having realized very quickly who he is and what his condition is and then realizing how she can use it and then choosing is it? You feel the betrayal I think. with Natalie's character You feel the betrayal of it because at the start, you're definitely For me, I'm like, okay Teddy' definitely a bad man and he deserves. deserves to be killed. The first thing you see is him being killed. Yeah. And you're like, ob, were to learn, we're going to learn how he figures this out and then to see to just see it explicitly and the scene where she first comes in and says, oh, Dod, Dod be the share of me And you just believe her as the audience, you believe her that that's what's happened Yeah. and then the realization that h, shit. M That was a very, very effective Morning in motion The city rushing past Today won't wait Neither will you. With flavors like coffee, Zen is built for this moment and for the day ahead all from America's number one nicotine pouch brand Find Z in wherever nicotine products are sold Warning, this product contains nicotine, nicotine is an addictive chemical. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to, or the succulents that adorn our homes. Nature makes all of our lives well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize With All Trails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently. With offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with All Trails and it is harrowing just looking at her in the car Yeah knowing I guess she knows how long it's got she's got to wait for the for the memory coooolown to the. Yeahep. And now I can go in and then they all spit in his beer as well That I mean really horrible things happened to him. but but also I was I'm only thinking it now and I think like a rewatch and again, DVD era, re watchatching movies, talking about them on the internet and forums. so of that time, but I think her character might not be evil. If you watched it again now She's probably got a right to be I don't think anyone's particularly He comes into the bar wearing her missing boyfriend's clothesving driving his car. Yeah. and she doesn't say what the fuck is going on. Well she kind of says like talks about it in a way which is roundabout enough for us to not No exactly.'s got the coaster that says to meet Natalie in the pocket of Jimmy's clothes. Yeah, presumably. So that wasn't actually n to by Natalie. No No, she says that. where she says your jacket, like she sort of reveals like that's not your that message is not for you. Yeah. Yeah. then when she understands more about it the disgust at him He's like just a killer. He's just like this lunatic killer. And so that venting because I felt like the moment where she's really cruel to him in the house and then he is violent towards her is Like that kind of cruelty is like weirdly harder to forgive. Yeah, I think there's some real in the moments where they're intimate with each other, like in the cafe when she says you're going to remember me Yeah and he doesn't There's also she's like looking for other things from him. like it's a really there's much more nuance to it than you might what I thought last night even just in thinking back And same with Joerery Pants. Rob, did you think he was Goodie or bady do this for every Nitherer way. Neither I thought he was a bady at the start By the end just he's not a particularly nice man. I don I don't think any of the three leads are I wouldn't describe any of them as particularly nice people. They're just They're three humans colloiding with each other at this moment in their lives. and one of them has this incredibly unique condition Uh He's obviously a Um AKA Cop, am I right guys No one liked that. U Lenny for his own nefarious ends. I think he's an amazing performance from Joey Pence jry pants in this. It's just I can't imagine him ever being An other than this kind of character. He's exactly this kind of character in the Matrix. Yeah, just kind of makes your skin cel a little bit I hope he's a really nice man in real life I kind of lean towards him being slightly Sightly good. Really? Just like a tinge, no doubt that he isn't using Lenny for his own nefarious me to find justice. Yeah which does I think So that's a good starting impulse. Yeah. Let's murder a man together for the right reasons. Yeah. For m Yeah, for money. Money Money comes later, but yeah. yeah. Can you imagine being his friend though Can you imagine being his Lenny's friend? No Tedd's friend Tedd's friend Yeah. No wor. Oh Just the way she gets in the car he's there. Yeah. I'm your friend Lenny. Remember me, I'm your friend. Oh. It really choices for you to be my friend. This is maybe a tangent, but just I just really enjoyed thinking about how he can only trust what is written down. because so you said about I've got a few thoughts in my head that I'll try and explain and you obviously thought that Joe Pantance was bad because he's killed at the end by in quot the good guy, whichich makes sense. And then we see on his pololaroids he's written donon't believe his lies And um It's interesting that We, the audience are just believing everything we're seeing. Yes in the movie, like it's facts, we are being told these particular things. They're written down for us and we believe them. And it's just super interesting reallyally and I once u Once you come to understand the mechanic of the film, I then kind of became sort of excited about Although to be fair, this is just Perhaps because I've seen it before, but like looking for when is when are we going to see him right down? donon't believe his lifeine Will we see at all? O what was scribbled out on what was scribbled out on Natalie's Polaroid, like all of this stuff I just thought it was really interesting.'s such a cool idea. There's a horrible desperation in that scene which we already talked about, where you see in the second version of it where there's a slight overlap where she comes back into the house the first thing she does is well as she's leaving, she's tiding away all the pens. Yeah She's putting them all in her bag because she knows what she's doing. Yeah. It's fucking horrible. It's really smart. And in a similar level, just nice touches. I really enjoyed. You understand by the end why Teddy keeps saying you can't park that car out front. You really need to put it somewhere else This is crazy. Yeah. my favorite My favorite little character moment was when he came into the motel and he tried to pull the door and it was a push door Yeah, just that little She's probably done that every time times. It's a great that caught me out as well. It's a great bit. I also really like Burt and I really like that Burt is he's hiring in two rooms. And he just says he just admits it. He just tell her because at that point and that so that's interesting. love everyone little when he admits it, then he says, donon't be too honest, Burt. Yeah That was good. Well I was sort of thinking like, Lenny whyn't you writing this down Like, I know U write down that you've got two rooms and bt's screwing them over. Don't believe his lies. Well, this is ultimately where I end up like it would be it would not be a good place to exist. No being. this guy cant I cannot amiagrade amnesia. and that's interesting. like I had not realized how much I rely on my memory or my whoo I am now is is is a direct result of the things I remember, I guess, like things that have affected me stayed with me. And if you know, relationships are just memories. If dont if you can't remember somebody, just you can't have a relationship with them. Memory is wild and this film is obviously all about memory and I think there is The relationship between sort of memory and cinema is really interesting and sort of time and cinema. and I think like that if I think that Rob's literally closed his eyind. If just remembering things The world is still here. The Middle aged White Man podcast is still going on. Even if you close your eyes. E if you press pause. Yeah we're. What I was going to say was there is just that Cinema's got like a film and editing has got a relationship with time and reality and perception and is a medium which is all about chopping up reality into a specific digestible form or understandable form. continontuity editing being just like this basic way where people realizeed, oh, I can We don't have to just look at something in a single shot. I can cut to someone going in a door one way, then we're inside and they're coming through the door. People will just naturally understand it. And then from that everything deeviating from that everything and the way that things are put together into things like Mmento. And that would be like something which carries on. I think like if I am I think That's the things that I enjoy I enjoy Batman and beating people up, but that's like what I enjoy about the success or not of whether those things land in Nolan's film hass to be the reasons that I enjoyed this There is definitely, like I've said, a large amount of disrespect for this film I just don't I and you know, if I had the idea of a character who couldn'tm form short term memories I just don't think I would have I could never have come up with the way to present it, which I think is so clever. L it's an interesting idea here anyway. It's just interesting. think That's what stress me out about watching the film. because it's not just I'm trying to follow the story, I'm also trying to just annoyingly to me. figure out how they've decided in what order to show the scenes and how I think I saw a video clip of Nolan once where he draws curved line like that like a backwards C. And he says this's a white story of Memmento. Yeah And he then draws like crosses along this backward seam. And he's like o the first seam we'll see is from here. and he starts at the middle. then he sort of like diagonally moves outwards which makes it look very, very simple There's also like a little bit of overlap so the audience can also know I've just learned that And there it feels like there are a few moments in the film where we get told like a new bit of story and it takes two or three scenes to actually finally get the full version of okay, that's what was happening there. Like the first time we see Dod, he's just This is the skill of the foe. I was thinking this yesterday, because I'd watched a little bit of that interview. Nolan kind of takes is's just not Umbridge, but like he picks up on Elvis Mitchell asking about non linear storytelling. and he says, this is a linear film. It's just backwards. Like we don't really hop around And I guess that ignores the se of Black and white ye scenes, which are taking place That gives them some kind of element of control to add new information and make things slightly more complicated. But the thing which to your point, I was going to say was the kind of most skillful element of the overlap is how much information to give or how many things to pull the audience through with wanting to know about. Exactly. There's like a hanging question where to where to leave the little mini cliffhangers And there's always one like a You know And And the real skill is we don't know it's a question we wantt answered until the next scene Like the whole You know, Carry Anmoss comes in and says, Dodd's beat the shit out of me We're not actually I'm not asking the question, did Dodd actually beat this shit out of you. And we don't realize that's a question and that is a little cliffhanger until the next scene overlaps with the start of it you almost like getting cliff hang is in reverse. Yeah, you only realise it was a moment of suspense until the suspense has been broken Yeah, in your formulating the plot forwards and backwards at the same time. Whoy t I don't know if I would like every film to be like that No like as a No I watching it last night, I did not change from black and white to color at the end. I don't know if anyone else had that. I did just just I didn't know when it happened Yeah, I suddenly realized it happened but I don't think I saw it happen and I just thought that was I almost went back just to see it and I thought, no, there was a re black and white scene, wasn't it? Yeah kind of shifts. I just enjoyed that and I just felt that I was kind of engrossed in couldn't quite pinned down What was happening in black and white and in what direction and what was happening in colour in what direction they I think I believe yeah, well the black and white scenes are all chron loical? Yeah. So the first one we see is, you know at the start of a scene, basically Um, And they occur, I guess very near the end of the story He tells Bertt that he's asked him to hold his schools They talk about that and that happens during the black and white. So the back and white scene will go forwards until he takes Teddy to the where he's going to kill Teddy And then it goes to color So it's it's sort of happening near the The start of the movie the end of the story And yeah, they're just running forwards in the middle, mostly just to tell you about Samy Jenkiss, which I also I think is a great foil. It's like that is interesting, you know, they make that really interesting throughout. I'm always looking forward to the black and white bits to learn a bit more about the story of Samy Jenkiss and he's gone to that tattoo parlor a lot, hasn't he? Well, he can do it himself as well. So I was wondering like when he's like might, I'll get this donefess professionally. It's got like facts written really two hundred thousand dollars in the back of this car. I'll get this one done. Yeah Although I was also thinking He must forget that He must not know he's got a gun and two hundred thousand dollars in the back of the car. And I think that's why throughout the movie, Teddy keeps trying to take his car, should you take your car. Or like, you know, do you want to swap cars? justust let me get in the car without telling him what's in the boot. He doesn't want to just say there's something in the boot or it's mine or whatever, whichich I think is really that's quite of funny as well. He's not quite throwing. Like Lenny's not like, oh I've got money for days now. my maid. He's forgotten that as soon as he gets to the tattoo parter and then unless he goes and the definitely something I'd be taken a fail of Yeah all your money's in the boot. Yeah. So he's a slightly U Conflicted character, isn't he? Undoubtedly a deranged killer Kynem, he must know he knows that when he's done it and then when he decides that he's He needs this purpose or else what is his life. So he decides that he will kill again. Well you get this idea of a crime of passion. and you know, like are people people who murder multiply being probably a different order of person, but accepting that probably most people are capable of it in a heightened state of whatever, fury or revenge And it's just that he's got to kill in them Oh Oh no One or two? I haven't. One or two, onene or two And just But he is stuck at that moment is what I was going to say. that he is he hiss one kill as Roberts put it or two, is in the chamber the whole time. He's ready to do that once in a lifetime. that something terrible has happened to me. this is my revenge. And I guess that he's also it is a survival or mechanism like like we've see we we see through Sammy Jenis What life is like with no, I mean, they think he says this like he didn't have a purpose or whatever. He just all he can do is watch adverts on the tey because he can't remember anything So Lenny's adverts are killing people. Yeah. but I'm, I'm not saying it makes it okay, but it's not like he's a serial killer. he loves killing. He's like he needs a purpose. found this. You can almost forgive each individual kill And his moment of like moral failing or when he's written permanently into the record as a bad guy is when he knows that, that moment of realization and then setting himself up to carry on doing it because he needs that purpose. Yeah That's his decision that he's going to kill more people. Then he does have the facts Yeah and he makes that decision I really come around in this. actuallyctually, this whole thing has made me like the movie more than I did before. God damn it It's a really good moie. Was it you yesterday who was saying Nath that you know If you ever woke up with nothing to look forward to, you wouldn't know what the point was anymore. Yeah, that's what lockdown felt like. It was fucking shit That's yeah. And I feel so yeah, that's why I started killing people Everyone's got one or two of them. Yeah Memory's crazy, isn't it? And the thing I was going to say earlier on was when a couple of Christmases back, you and I they'ave both individually watched Get backack the Nine hour Beatles documentary byi. I loveved it. Peter Jackson on his toam And I enjoyed it too. and around that, Paul McCartney was talking about he did a couple of interviews and he was talking about what having very much enjoyed watching that like extended period of time moreore just dropping in fly on the Wall style, still edited, still together, some visuals didn't match the audio, but I don't think they were trying to create a particular effect and Paul McCartney said that having, so the original release of Let It Be, the film came with a lot of negativity. and his memory of it was bound up with that and it had affected how he remembered that period of time. and then in watching this bigger window into those sessions He was like, we were like all those things did happen We were having a good time still. They were like other there was this whole other thing which hadn't been recorded in the same way, which he then had access back to Thats Just how unreliable memory is, it can be even even when you were there And you are the person that everyone is talking about. but there's a movie of it which says it was a shit time. and then Fifty years later, you're like, it was a shit time until you see another movie, which tells you There was some other sides to this as well It is powerful because in our heads memories are facts really. Yeah. although I fully understand that memory is fallible I also kind of think that mine isn't. And you know we've had it loads of times where we would talk about the past on access And you'll be like, you know, one of us will remember something a certain way and I'll remember it a slightly different way. And I would just think my way is the right way. Relatively early on in access, there were bits of that people would just clip and put up on social media. and would and it would just be me doing something fucking stupid in one of Rob's videos and I would have no memory.es, there's some shots of me in a supermarket Like looking yeah Like just do you have any memory of that ro? Yeah. Oh, okay. Do you know what there we are. Yeah But it's very odd to see yourself doing stuff that you can't remember doing. Yeah. There's a lot of that on the internet for us. I just had a, I don't know if it's a sad thought or not. I don't know. But ultimately life is it's like momentmento, isn't it Going one way and the other way and one way going forward is things you've got to look forward to. and the other way is things that you remember. and you're either looking forward to things or you're remembering things. And as you get older The things you' got to look forward are less and less and the things you remember are more and more. That's why you've got to make good memories. You just have got to accrue good memoryies. So ultimately, when you get to the day that you die Yeah, hopefully in there hours or whatever it is before you die, you've just got enough Nice memories to think of. Yeah. All those people you murdered just thinking back on that Yeah. Or, you know, nicer things than that, hopefully. Yeah, holidays. A nice meal to look forward to Yeah att the end of it. when you've only got five minutes left, like h there's like a bit of cake or something Yeah, you can look forward to that. I think you know you're right it is quite sad, isn't it? I don't know if it's sad, it's just the way it is That's true. Did any Did? Exactly. This had been a good discussion up until we ruined Rob's point about this, which it was a good point. What was my point? It was a nice one about I put I wasn't trying to ruin it. I was just actually I forgotten. You were earnest for about ten seconds. It was quite philosophical I about the looking forward to remembering. Yeah ye That was very strange. That is a life. and yeah. well I guess that's another thing that Lenny doesn't have. He can't look forward to anything. She doesn't know what he's doing or where he is. I just wanted to say I enjoy some of the playfulness with it as well. Obviously we talked about B J just extorting him for extra money. I enjoy very much the whole Dd thing where he's like, what are we doing? I'm chasing that guy. And then he's like No, he's chasing me I love that in the middle of yeah, like a foot race, like a chasing around. That was brilliant. And then followed up by him sat on a toilet with a bottle of whis beaming feel drunk and he's like, I guess I'll just have a shower. I mean, just really enjoyed like some of the fun that is with quite a serious condition in a way that's otherwise quite miserable the I guess the other thing, which I thought was interesting, which Nolan talked about was how and we've touched on it from a couple of different angles but not directly, is how amnesiac heroes are a really good point of relatability for audiences because they're in a situation often which they need to then uncover It's a bit like when you realize that most walking simulators take place in places that are haunted or that everybody's left and you have to figure out why. And part it's because structurally that makes no of sense because then you don't have to animate anybody, you have to pick up notes And in noir stories, especially the idea that you're in some kind of web of intrigue, but you as or the hero that we're watching on screen is also a blank canvas and It's like a couple of years after this, like the born didentity does up brilliantly lots of kind of classic moral examples of it, or even I was thinking, I don't know if Nan had this on his mind, but Arnold Schwarzenegger in tootal Reall has that and you assume he's a good guy I ha't seen it. I've still never seen T. because why wouldn't he be the good guys onwactact. I'm sure he's exact recall. Yeah ye. So that's f. I hope I don't have total recall of what you've said when I finally watch this that movie. Oh I I mean, like yeah, I mean, I really good. we could have done a series about memory or of course Alice in Resident Eil Yeah, she doesn't remember anything. And then she remembers how to fight. That's just finding in a memory, that's an instinct. R That's kicking dogs. Well, I guess if you were going to take that seriously, it is interesting that There are two people who kind of lose their memories and one of them is good and one of them is bad You know, like you get you get both. Yeah, both of them. What was the whole conditioning thing about I didn't understand what they were trying toition thing. I didn't know. they were doing the experiments with Sammy and he kept on repeatedly picking up the shape that electrocuted him and I think they were showing that If If he Um If it was a physical, like he had an accident and if it damaged his brain and that's why he couldn't remember then the insurance company would pay out. But they could find no physical Um damage to his brain. So they thought I guess that he was faking and the way to test that was The idea was that even with physical damage, it's a different part of the brain that handles the sort of instinct thing. He should have learned Even though he couldn't remember, he would have learned that every time he picked up those electric objects, he would have just felt like in the future he would have just felt like a don't pick those up for some reason. sort of counterintut. But he kept picking them up. So they thought that was kind of him faking because he was like obviously. Well, not even faking, but just again that this distinction in the film is quite a nuanced one, isn't it? It's like he's not faking, but there isn't anything physically wrong with him and you're not covered for mental health insurance Yeah. That whole story is so sad. like obviously we talked about that specific scene, but like his wife going to see Leonard and just just wanting his opin like forget about the I don't care about an appeal or anything. I just want as a human who spent time with him, like what do you really think? Just tell me what you really think. and in that story at least, because personally don't think that that is the proper story of Sammy Jenks. you know, Leonard is kind of responsible for her death because he just is he doesn't he doesn't put her mind at rest