Jimmy Fallon and Post-Game Life

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It was great seeing everyone, you know, it went off without, you know, without a hitch ofse and then' cameame slain No, but it was but it was great seeing everyone and and I feel It's a great opportunity to like move on to the next thing, you know, with now it's summer 're doing a lot more kind of public science communication work and And so it's kind of a thrilling opportunity in sort of freeing, you know? Well I'd love to have you come back and do a whole podcast about what else is coming on after Survivor. I think we have unlimited time to do that in the future. But let's get into talking about the Survivor fifty of it all. And we came off of the finale last month and it was a jury vote that has been talked about to some degree, you were one of the people that was on the jury. I've looked at the block of you and Rick and Emily as the swing voters who kind of were're going to decide this. I think it was also going to be the same case in terms of Jonathan versus Rizzo versus Joe. if that ended up being the final three if Aubrey wasn't there Can you give us some of your insight? and you did such a great job of talking through famously your vote for Mike White over Nick back in David versus Goliath? So I have to imagine you put a lot of thought into Aubrey versus Jonathan I did put a lot of thought in. I mean I think to be fair, I think so much of the rest of the jury did too. But yeah, I really I mean, I'm very confident in my vote and I did at and I was at the time. and in fact One thing I was kind of accidentally smart in doing is I brought with me to Ponderosa, an MP three player Which I forgot to load any music on because you know but I did realize that afterwards it was a voice recorder. L I realized was like, oh my God, this is also a voice recorder. So in the pregame and postgame at Ponderosa, I was just dictating hours and hours of thoughts. And this was really useful because I got like my contemporaneous thoughts right after the final tribal cououncil vote as to why I voted for Aubrey Um So in terms of logistics of what you'reking about, Rob, in terms of like me, Rick and Emily being the swing votes, I mean, we viewed it kind of that way too at the time point where we're looking at the people that were probably going to vote for Aubrey, the people were probably going to vote for Jonathan. We weren't sure sure. someome of them we were very sure. But like we looked at the breakdown there and we said, hey The three of us our votes secret. and from each other as well, tell nobody then no one will know who won the season U And so we swore each other the secrecy going to the tribal council. We're not going to tell anyone who we voted for, not each other. So I didn't know who they voted for until Jeff read the boots of Tbal cououncil And and it kind of was validating and that we all independently came to the same conclusion to vote for the same person, and in this case, in the form of Aubrey I remember I was talking with Emily before the vote. I was like, Oh, how do you feel about the vote? She wass like, oh, you know fully sure about how I voted and how I feel about it. because she was worried that she might be like the swing vote that would literally tip in one direction. But I think at the end when we all kind of came to the same conclusion to vote for Aubrey a way it was validating U And yeah, we get into why. I imagine Ill the next pase. Yeah. So so like and it's a little bit different than my first season where Mike White I was like, I'd walked away just sort of blown away by like what Mike White did and at the time it really felt that way. and I it maintained so much of what I said Arey it was a it was a much sort of like it was a much kind of a messier sort of decision of a vote. The reason that I recorded at the time is I really appreciated her zigging and zagging style of game. It was very clear to me, mostly because maybe I recognize it in myself of what I'm trying to do in a game of survivor where I'm kind of trying to jump around from vine to vine when I need to, if I need to And she successfully pulled that off. And in a way that and it wasn't like she was just floating by, she was targeted. She was targeted multiple times through the throughout the vote. And so the reasoning I'm going through as I'm listening back to my reasoning for the first time in a year, by the way, in preparation of the podcast, like, yeah, it all kind of tracked with what I remembered. which was that yes, she was targeted, but she found a way to say, okay, you know what? seeparating from Christian is probably the smart thing to do right now. I'll jump from there to there That was good. I thought she did a really smart job with it. and and it was intentional. I think it was and it wasn't a perfect game by any stretch. Certainly I I was there were a lot of things I noticed that like a couple of things was once she was said she lied to me by why she didn't play her idol about that in the episode Like and Aubrey, do you think I'm stupid? And this came up at Final Tribal couounselil And it's like she was like, I just tried to play it off like I forgot. I was like I said, Aubrey, It really came across like you thought we were stupid And she was like she owned it And in addition to that, a big one of the bigger things was the listening back listening back was the Auszie vote And and this was what the information we had going into the vote was like Qion, Who is responsible for the Oussie boat? Who do we give credit for the Oussie boat And the tenor of the discussion is that ended up being like, oh, this was Aubrey's move was something that was sort of the conclusion of what we talked about tribal counsel. I think that it's a little bit hazy I think still as to what happened, I remember that' something I loocked's like I feel I had to give more credit Aubrey then to Jonathan because that really was a domino That sort of what caused the rest of the game to fall down So there was this role in this pivotal vote. And I was going back and I was listening to yeah, and I remember that you know Jonathan played a very good game. And I was like I thought specifically a final tribal councsel when he talked about how he made up the D fight. He kind of staved that whole thing That's good. There's some intention there I think that Jonathan also there's a little bit of Boston Rbbyness to him and before with without talking about him being you know, coached under the tutelage of Boston Rob There he does have a similar style where he leverages his power when he has it U like if he feels like he has you over a barrel, he will like use that leverage like, okay, you got to tell me this or you got to do this for me, right? That's a sort of a Boston Rob running the game kind of move. He had that sort of intention So he was very much a viable candidate. but I think in the end, The fact that Arubby was able to jump from vine to vine in a way that she was always on the right side of the boats. really stood out to me as a reason to vote for her Thank you for getting into that. Let's get back to you and talk about you coming into Survivor fifty. And you gave a great interview with Mike Bloom about thirty five minutes or so to kick off the preseason. And it was such a delight to hear you back talking about Survivor again all the things that you had been cooking up, we had no idea what we would actually see in the season, but we knew you had been thinking a lot about season fifty Yeah, I mean it was a very different experience in my first season. My first season, I had no idea how I would even be received on the island. And I talked about this you before. we can rehash that at a later date, but I just didn't know. So I didn't have a very strong game plan going into this Fiber Dav versus Goliath. I was I'll adapt and figure it out. you know, what game is like This time, you knew who was going to be out there. The cast leaked like four days before we left And I remember I was up late at night. My son Michael was like, I had to like rock him back to sleep. I put him down, I pulled out my iPad, and I had the list of all the alleged cast. And I started like categorizing people. like how do I was trying to figure out who was on what tribe? And I came with this sort of elaborate this sort of hypothesis of trios I don't think literally survivor cast in that exact way but it's sort of a model for which thinking about how survivor views us and why we are cast on the show the way that they are. What are we there to do because we're here to produce a TV out television show. and you're like, well, Jonathan, while he has a lot of talents If he was not excellent in challenges, he would not be on the show. You know, he's there because that's why he's a survivor player, but he's also got other talents, right? U Similarly, you know,, you know, someone like like u like Mike White. I think he's very talented at the game. He's very good, but also he's an excellent storyteller. He's great in the conffessional And once you start realizing that these are their superpowers that get them on the show, you start to realize I started to kind of put together patterns of behavior as how they behave in the game. And which of these folks would be compatible with me moving into a returning player season, which by the way, I was terrified I would go home early. terrified. I have no idea what's going to happen this season. So how do I maximize my way of getting as far as possible to specifically get to the end? And if I don't have a path to the end Why am I here? Why am I leaving my son if I don't have a path to the ended win? U and what this ended up being is I end up say this is really important in the pre merge because in the pre merge Often, yes, you want to just get rid of people that are just not you. and maybe don't want to work with you. So that way we can get to the merge U, this season I was like Getting to the merge is not enough because I've experienced getting to the merge and being a giant target and being targeted over and over and over again and eventually just gets you, right? So so I was looking at these people on the beach and I'm like, okay, there are some people I don't want to make the merge If I have anything to do about that, about that And so you if I like them a lot. A great example is cute Q is I actually I had two days with Q It's beautiful two days with Q. I love being with QQ. But I also saw how Q plays, and especially at the merge, he kind of emits this distortion field.'s I kind of categorizeed him as a character. He's there for the drama He's also a smart guy, but like the but he is, but no strategy can happen around him that isn't somehow distorted byQ to do something else, right? And that was not going to be helpful for me at the merge. And in fact, everyone seems to want to take Q deeper And so people like who are being kept around, people want to keep them deeper, they are as much as I love them strategically my enemy on a returning player season of Survivor because they're taking him of a spot that is not me I amm very likely to be targeted. U And so I was trying to eliminate people who near the once once the merge hit O that they didn't want to work with me. They were they were they want to get rid of them. but also They've takaking up a spot for me then that's I should find a way to get them out if it's reasonable Besides Q, who else fit in that category? The big one was Angelina. And as much as you know, Angelina had a good relationship since Dave Vversa Giath, we didn't talk very much, but it but like I remember looking back on the season. She was one of the people that she did a job at Dave Vversa Goliath always keep the door open to one to workking with me. And so I saw no reason to target her after a certain point, Davvers Gide. Iike, o, she wants a person that might want to work with me. Why would I target her? And that's good on her. In hindsight, I was like, I should have targeted her because everyone else wanted her around once she got a certain certain depth in the game. So I was like, if there an opportunity came up where Angelina might be a target to go pre merge She should go pre merge for a number of reasons. That was one of them. So One of the things you talked about in the preseason was that you really wanted to work with Serei. You wanted to go to the end with Serei because you felt like that you could offer something to Serei that she's never had. She never gets to the end And you thought that your unique selling proposition was I'm not afraid to go to the end with you Yes, and I was thrilled when I showed up on the beach my starting beats and I not only had Rick who I was excited to work with, Emily who I knew from Blood on the Clock Cower games that we play on, you know, available on Rob as a podcast, a YouTube channel. You canad to the record. you did not that's Put your hand on the tribe and I have spoken. Yes. did you did not Have a pre game relationship with Rick Evans None Well, I met Rich Evans, but we didn't strategize pre game. Like we like so so we would sound like we never texted. We absolutely texted. But there was no like Rick, when you and I get together, we're going to do X, Y and Z. like we actually he's trying to get me to do a talk at his university. He at middle Middle State, Georgia University So itounds like we didn't talk to be clear. I should make cont that clear. I do wanted to disinbiguate. Rick was kind of removed from a lot of the pre gaming. I think if you talk with him, he would tell you that. I would say I talk more with Emily flipppin And we didn't talk strategy either, but it was mostly that we would touch base. and I think in part because she wanted me to make sure we were on a good page, even though she told me she would absolutely never go back on sururvivor And then she was going back on Survivor. I think she was worried that I wouldn't that I'd see her as a liar or something for that. So she was very friendly. It's not lie you change your mind. Yeah, there you go. exactly, exactly, Rob. So When it comes to Sereree though, I was on a beach with her. I'm like, oh my God and and I'm thinking Be my big puzzle that I had in Davidvers Goliath it may or may not been true this season was how the hell do I get the end of this game? Just like like like if if I'm ever in a position to win I'm very likely to be targeted. If I get deep in the game and I'm likely to be targeted, they will target me. It' be very hard to get to the end I need to find more people like that. One of them was Rick Devans. Rick Devans, and I thought he was perfectly compatible. Like if I ended up on a beach with him It's an easy sell I want to give the same pitch to Sereree, which was that both of us are targeted constantly and I did I found her on day one and I said, Si, I really want to talk to you. I've been want to talk to you this whole time. And I basically told it's like, you may not, you know, it's like it's like You and I have we have the same problem to vastly different degrees. Both of us have never been able to penetrate the end of the game. There will be time and and I am and you might not believe me I'm crazy en nowough, I would go to the end with you You know, I would want to go to the end And and there willll be times where you'll need my help to not be targeted. And there will be times I need your help to not be targeted. But then at some point we will need each other. And so there was this back and forth of like I pitch this back and forth. And of course, Ceres says yes, because he course's to say yes, knowowing that she might go back to the professional and laugh at me But I knew I had to make kind of a big play like that One thing and as much as Serei I do credit with a lot of my downfall later in the game, one thing she did say, I feel like in my boot episode, which she was like There were times where Christian protected me, and there were times where I protected Christian And I was like I feel like what I said did sit in her mind a bit. And there were certainly times where I went to bed to protect her, certainly in the in the early the first vote of the season when Jenna was was targeting her And so I did make that pitch. That was something that I did as a big swing U, but I should have cut bait on her earlier kind of mid merge. knowing how close now know now realizing how close she was Oz Was there a specific point that you look back at that you think that this was the move where we should have gotten rid of Suri So most really the I regret almost nothing about this season up until my final day in the game, D eighteen that's both me going on the the on the Jimmy Fowon advantage, you know journey and telling Serei about why to get rid of Ozzie. I mean, those are the two things I just like and it's unlike the last Last day. Th those are the things I really regret. And so and Serei might have been a good target at that vote because there was appetite for Serei from some quarters I would have had to know where to go for that. So I wouldn't have gone for her earlier. I don't regret not taking her out first to be honest. That I think that it made all the sense in the world because she was in fact, I mean, in a world where Serei is at let's say the merge And we weren't close I could have been someone she threw under the bus at the merge instead of the I could have easily been that person. So I think that she wasn't trying to target me at least for that period. So But maybe on day eighteen, if I let other people build the vote, I could have bandwagoned on. It would have been tricky at that point. You know, you're coming off of the cooach and Chrissy tribal cououncil where you've spent a lot of social capital with lying to Jonathan and Joe is upset with Rick Devin. 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Download the app today and sign up with promo code Nugget onene That's promo code Nugget one to make any moment golden. In partnership with Golden Nugget Online Casino. Gambling problem call one eight hundred gambler. Please play responsibly. twenty one and over. physically present in Michigan New Jery, Pennsylvania and West Virginia only. Void in Ontario. Non withdrawable spins issued as fifty spins per day for ten days valid for select games only and expire each day after twenty four hours. See terms at goldennuggetcasino dot com slash promos, ends june twenty eighth at eleven fifty nine PM Eastern timeim I do want to go back to the beginning of the game and something that I think is really notable is when you end up finding the Hidden immunity idol. you find the Billy Eilish Uomerang idol. And you have to come up with a decision of to do with it. and Billy Eilish Bomerang idol that you find is actually going to play a very big part in your story. but also the season. First, it is going to be something that with you and Rick and you're going to hide the fake idol. It's also going to be the thing that you need to tell Emily about at the last minute before the tribe swap. But also then you make a decision Who am I going to send the Billy Eilish boomerang idol to? and you chose Aubrey Bronco. and you said in confessional, Godspeed, Aubrey Brocco And you probably couldn't have even known that it was really one of the first big turning points in the game Well, I mean, certainly I did not know the details of what was going on on with Aubrey, but like the thinking behind that, you to give a little backstory. For one, it was edited a little bit out of sequence. It actually found I actually found that idol shortly before triribal cououncil on episode two. So it was right before Tbal cououncil I found this thing Well, Joe and Rick had just had their little spat And it was so awkward and because there's an odd number of people, I had no one else to go off and talk to. So I said, I'm just go off and look for an idol. And I found it And I was talking to camera about it. And that's I'm even reacting. I'm even talking about Joe and Rick in the moment when I find it because I literally was just exiting from this fight on day six right before Tbal councsel. So I just found it. I'm pulled aside and I'm asked, you know, who do I give it to? And it's craz what a crazy decision I have to kind of go through. was sitting out in my head Be I just seen the episode to immunity challenge and we're all running kind of dragging this snake around And I remember a lot of us were talking about like Aubrey looked like she wanted to cry. Like she looked like she was really upset. I think she was like like it like I don't and also knowing she was there with Q And this person who had famously on his seasons said he should be really worried about people A. She it made all the sense to give the idol to someone who was in trouble two reasons. One is it could protect them if they need it. Two, if they're targeted and they're not protected, you get the item. It's like And so it's the natural place where you send it And Aubrey is a person, we didn't communicate really over the course of like the years in between our seasons or anything, but I had a vibe that, you know, we're both kind of nerdy fol. We get along. So I could build a relationship with that. So that was the slam dunk there. And so I was hoping that this would build a relationship. But if it't, I'd get an idol That was not Well, Tell me about this plan that gets concocted of because you said that you find this fake idol shortly before the tribal council that ultimately, I believe it's the same tribal council, the Savannah boat where the fake idol is planted come together so quickly. Well, I mean, the first thing is I had to report to Rick in my opinion that I had the idol because there was concern that Savannah had an idol And now we finally knew something about this idol. So I was like I'm going go tell Rick because I don't want to have to try to have people try to do a crazy split vote situation because she didn't find anything. Yeah. Now, I did say if she she could have been gifted something. So I wanted to report to Rick real quick. L this is what's going on So let's put the Kiibosh in any kind of split vote plans that are happening. There's a very complicated plan. Sereree wanted a very complicated plan. It was in a good way to try to get rid of Savannah and like trying to really pitch us I'm like I'mine with. I'mine with doing Svann.'s okay. But I talk to Rick and he immediately has this idea of like clearly he's been cooking this up for a long time. He's wanted to do this. It's like's, do you have the wrapping? And' like, yes, of course. And so he pitched the idea of hiding it at Tbal cououncil. you see my reaction, it's one like, Ohh my God, that's brilliant. But oh my God, that's amazing. We should absolutely do that and And so I gave him the rarapping and I think I told the story. I had lost the twine. Rick Devins is aitle artist. He wanted the twine and we had to go find it and I lost it again. It was a whole rig and roll. And we in fact were working out the logistics of like If he's seated here and I'm seated here, where should I do the fall? Where's he going plant the idol? Because on the first tribal council, he was mostly scanning around pl finding places where he could plant it And so we worked out the logistics of where I'd fall when. They sat us at tribal councsel and then like, oh my Godd, like am I gonna do this? And sure enough, like you just kind of just embrace the craziness Sure. I'll just do a Pat fall. Why not? And And it worked shockingly better than I expected in part because tribal council is quiet We get all the music when we're watching the show, but it's dead silent otherwise. so the hero whp you know, happening. That's going to startle everyone. I even I asked one of the editors that I got to meet at the final trial after fininal Tbal cououncil. I' sorry at at the finale. They said, I do the Foley work, the Dan Foley work, the audio work, you know, like And I said, did you make fake noises for me falling? And they said We used your sound from your mic, I think is what he implied for the sound of me falling. That is the actual sound. So it startled people and it works shockingly well. The only challenge is that Rick didn't tell me where he hit the idol and I forgot to ask Did you get hurt? No, not really. I mean, like it just kind like you for I just kind of just let myself go go put and kind of knee down, arm down People were really concerned And like I felt bad about it because I don't want to f a medical condition. I feel like kind of crosses a bridge too far for like a game move. So I got back like it definitely I kind of acted like I got my bell rung and then Sree had to redirect me away from I literally was walking the wrong direction. It's like it kind of worked. and kind of it kind of just built, you know, and I got back to camp. I wanted people to one not think I was about And And so I was like, I'm fine. L, I'm dancing around. I'm good. don't worry, folks. And Joe had some very elaborate medical hypotheses as to what happened to me and I felt bad as like the season no I was just making. Yeah. You're set up incredibly well. You're doing so great to start off the game. I think you probably couldn't have thought to yourself, like, I could not be getting off to a better start in this game with this initial starting tribe and how things are playing out And then ultimately you get to The swap And so it's such a unique swap where you get swapped to a tribe with Mike and Angelina Yes, and my first interaction was like, oh my God, this's amazing A actually gave each other a glance when we're being walked out of like off the swap. like the three of us happen to be in line behind each other and we're not supposed to talk at that point because we're about to go off camera. And we look at each other like, Oh my God is this happening This is amazing And so I it was at first it was exciting And then I'm looking at it. I also have Ozzie and Emily there for my starting tribe. and I have a good relationship with both of these people at this point U So I'm like, this is good options. And we got Q and Q and Stephanie on the outs. this looks good. On once I kind of get to camp and I realize the optics of this. I even kind of said it at the time. I was like, look, these people voted tried to vote me off four times each which is something I think I told each of them that I would say. If I would ever asked about our relationship. It was like, well, you know, I like them, but they've tried to vote me off four times each. And so the and but I was aware of the the optics I was like this the optics are bad. Let's see if there's a way to manage it U And I was particularly worried about Emily Flippin because I wanted that relationship with Emily Flippin, but I could easily see her getting spooked by the DVG three getting back together. So I was I I was a little nervous, but I wanted to see if there was a way to handle it. That was my first instinct and This is when of course Emily has gotten a little spooked about the idol that you were trying to tell her about. and then she goes to Q and Ozzie to tell them about what you told her Yeah, so that surprised me. Like I think I expected her So first you get to the beach. like The reason I wanted to tell her is I wanted to have that information is that someone if she got swpped to another tribe, that would somehow help her. She could use it to blindside Aubrey or she could use it to help Aubrey. I wanted to maximize the chances of her getting to a swap to the merge and we're together Um and literally like one thing to emphasize how little time there is. like like I wish I had been able to tell her before was we were literally trying to pull people aside. We managed to catch Seree. that we want to tell them about the idol. But like literally she's like talking to Joe. Emily's talking to Joe. I'm like, I know't like Emily, I can't just pull her away from Joe. It's highly suspicious. And so I was like, oh Godd, and then it sure enough to swap. So I was like I told her. I figured, it's okay. We'll get to the beach U We'll fan out. We'll talk to people then we'll recckon Witer I'll tell her what happened I didn't expect within twenty minutes she would tell people or whatever time it was. and that that that that she would panic like that. I was like I did not expect that. I feel like that was outside the bounds of what I would have there's a reasonable expectation of what an ally would do In the end I was okay with it. I was fine with At first I was like, okay, especially when she came to the conclusion that she can't trust these other people and she was happy to work DVG three I was like, this is an excellent outcome. My bigger fear than the Iol being F out was Emily Flippin wanting to align with to try to get rid of people from the day of V Goliath I And she seemed to be off of that train. Yeah. So I was like, okay, I'm all right with the outcome of this. as much as this front I was so, I don't think I've ever been more mad in my life that in the moment that I found that that she did. And like like my reaction is one I've never been that angry I can't even remember what You talked about Q and what ultimately went wrong for Q Can we talk about the big vote, the three two one, which was technically Something to behold, a three to one, of course But it must have been a big decision for you to ultimately turn on Mike Oh yes, it was a huge decision. like like it was A lot went into that. And it was and especially in the lead up to the always' votes, I was trying to come up with at the least dramatic votes as possible Boring vote Clean vote like you said, Can votes, clean votes. Emily flipping almost Ozzie out in the first vote, which would have been hilarious. She was trying to pull out like a three way vote that would have left out Serene and Jenna to get rid of Ozzie. and I was like, I admired it, but I was like, what do are we doing it? No, no, no, clean ve. And so I ultimately respected the fact that I didn't want to do it and do it. So anyway, clean votes. This was but like what but like the only reason I would do not a clean vote, especially in the pre merge was if I felt it was like catastrophic if I didn't And I think that that vote had real when the lead upps, I started to realize what a bind I was in because I like like I was realized, oh my go, this if if we number one, if we The Daveverska three go through multiple vots and we emerge from a tribe swap together and we go into the merge. the three of us are our target, abbssolute target, easy target to paint, especially when I'm back in my first starting tribe and I'm like, lookook, I like Angelina, but I'm not going to work with Angelina is what I told people. And then all of a sudden I'm protecting her at all these votes. That's bad for me. especially at the merge if the three of us are there I'm the one taking the bullet Angelina, I think once She gets to the merge, she becomes much less of a target peopleople start to see as a person that they can take deep into the game. And Mike White, you know, celebrity aside is actually incredibly personable and people like working with him. and sure, there's a little bit of white Lotus effect, but they're not targeting Mike. No one believes when people meet Mike They don't know how good he is And I have to like remind people that he is that good. So I'm the one taking the bullet. I'm the obvious target. So I'm like basically one of these people three have to go. And my first thought is Angelina. It's like, well, and already Ozzie wants to get rid of Angelina This makes sense. and and I kind of want likeike and Mike is aware of the situation in fact, spills the beans say Angeline that she's the target and tries to save her And I'm not talking to Mike and I pull himide like, Mike, you realize this three. This is bad for us. And that's where he starts pitching me on U getting rid of Emily U this is a Gabby situation And I was like, oh my God. it actually did hit me. I was saying you did anything bad of bounds. You didn't do anything bad of bounds, but like like it really did emotionally kind of hit me. And I remember I come away from that conversation I go and talk to Stephanie. Mike can want to go and work on Stephanie to get rid of to get rid of Emily Fippin as well. And Stephanie was like is so convincing I think we should get rid of Emily. What do you think? And I was like Let's do Emily. Let's do Emily I because I even though like In part I was like, Mike I think he's trying to do me a solid. trying to pretend like they didn't fully make sense to me. It's like, Yeah, Emily might turn on me eventually, but like prere merge? Why are we doing it now? It't make fullid sense, but I kind of trusted it So I said, let's do Emily to Stephanie. I went to to Mike and I was like OkayK let's do Em.'ll it But I got to know, what are we doing when we hit merge? This is going to be a problem Like for all the reasons I say, I'm going to get targeted. We're going to get targeted. What are we going to do And he's like, we'll figure it Fred out He will getid Angelina next. And I was like That's when the switch flipped for me. I was like One, that's not a plan And two, this is not sincere. this point he's if he's going if he's trying to pull out the sort of emotional stakes of Gabby to try to get me to save Angelina, he's not just going to pitch her overboard next vote It's it's like, okay point I'm like I really wanted to work with my Ques. She wass great on the cQVat, by the way. and I actually loved we got to sleep by like the near the canoe together at night. It really reminded me of all times U But at that point I' like this guy is not in my corner. He's in Angelina's corner. What does that mean? Okay, how what my options here becausecause if I go over I can get rid of Angelina, I could get Emily flipp on my board and get rid of Angelina at that point I've gone over Mike's head And also He's very close with Ozzie. One thing that Ozzie was trying to hide that he was close to Mike, T told us he wasose with Ozzie. Hed said it's publicly back on David versus Goliath. He's like, Oh, I'm good friends Oz. He comes to my restaurant all the time. And Ozzie was like trying to hide that fact. and And it was like, I remember I told Ozie was like, Ozzie, I know you're close with Mike. He kept like playing. We even floated the idea of Mike to Ozzie at one point just sort of half jokingly. And the way he shut that down so quickly, I was like, okay, he's got something deep going on with Ozzie So Headsic got something deep going on with Mike So what are my options? So I was like, I you Angelina That's going to piss off Mike And Mike is close with Ozzie, he' bring my Azzie on board and he's really he's really influential with Stephanie probablybably get three. So maybe I make it to the merge by pissed off Mike. But then like what if I get rid of m Um, how can I do that Oviously I can't Ozie for the reasons I said and I think that was bn out on the show. He said he would absolutely have blown up my spot. And he told me afterwards that he absolutely, you know, was, you know, trying to go to go deep to the end with Mike So at that point, it' still be three to one And my thinking was is that if I split up Ozzie would be m so the good the good side is is it diffuses the David versus Goliath three. No one these things Davidversus Goliath three is working together. It split, it leaves Ozzie and Angelina Back in the game, both of whom had just lied to each other going to that vote. Ozzy in fact, voted for Angelina, they're unlikely to work together in the next vote Downside is that Azuszie's mad I remembered South Pacific and when he was left out of votes in the pre merge, and he got really mad. Then he got over it and then volunteered to send himself to Redemption Island and give Cochran his idol So I was like, I just need time. And it's certainly preferable than being a dead man at the merge. And certain and the benefit, the real benefit is that if I got through this vote and proved Emily Flippant that I was willing to take out Mike White over her, I would have her loyalty That was my reasoning. And I think that that was borne out in the end, the fact that she went to bat for me and almost went home trying to get out Ozzie over me on the eighteenth So that was the thinking of that vote. It was just a matter of pulling it off. And that was scary. That was scary as hell. But but looking back on it now, I wouldn't change a thing. I was I really when I think about it, I'm proud of it on on many levels The only thing I don't like about it this day is the fact that itakes that it hurt M That's the one thing I don like about it. Yeah And I Ustand that there are hurt feelings there. Do you feel like that there is hope There will be reconciliation at some point I mean, that's up to Mike. I mean Mike's got a lot going on in his life and certainly my phone's open to him if you ever want to reach out and talk about it I reached out to him as soon as I got back to send him a message because one thing I didn't want I him thinking is that I always planned to do this. And as much as I I was wary of whether or not Mike was truly in my corner I like him and and I wanted that kind of talent on my side Um But he was basically play you know, in just real litigage a little bit more If I Re down with Mike Way to the merge, I'd be playing Mike's game. I'd be reliant upon Mike saving me in the future. And and as much as I think he's skilled, I don't think he was that skilled. I don't think he would stave off me voting off one of Cereree's allies in Emily U at the merge. I'm not sure you can stve that off purely strategic move. and I hope he would see it that way. I think that he sees The game differently though And that and and that's and that's okay. I mean, people have different views of it. Yeah, but him if he wants to reach out, my phone's open. I would say give it time. I found Mike to be a very forgiving person And I think that You know, with time, I think may maybe he'll come around. We'll see. I mean, we'll see. I mean, u The good thing is we got both good things going on in our lives. I mean, he's obviously one wonderfully so. And so I've always wished him well and still do. Yeah After this vote though, we're going to see a lot of fallout between you and Ozzie. And you talked about how that this was anticipated and you felt like that with Ozzie from South Pacific, he was going to come around Yeah, and and and I maintained that. and I think that was ultimately true Like I think that the our ultimate falling out later in the game I'm sure was not helped by the fact that they left out the white vote, but I don't think it was a difference maker. I think once'm coming Ozzie, I don' think' forgiving me. But like it basically I went on a forty hour apology tour after that vote. grranted, knowing when he reacted the way he did, it wasn't just him being left out of a vote caught in my opion, I would think I'm thinking Jackp Jackpie. He's this mad because I took away an end game option for him that he was hoping to keep tight and he didn't see it coming. And so he's trying to, in my opinion, punish me for taking that option away from him. Really, like a lot of these other moves I could have made at that stage left me sort of at the mercy of like Ozzie and Mike and some other folks, and that took away that option from him I really went to a place where I'd really tried to bond with Ozie over the course of the next like day and a half before the next tribal council. U and really just try to be in a patient place U because the fight that happened after tribal councsel was It was longer than was shown is what I'll say. It was longer. I don't remember all the details of it, but it was intense. It was really intense. And I remember really trying to be patient and just listen to him. tri haded to take him aside and not talk to him in front a camp, but know he wanted to have it out everyone Um, And so I remember like I really had to go into a patient mode. but was I was actually hitting my limits though Like because because by the time like like thirty se odd hours later, I feel like we're making progress. Emily Flippin, thank God is reporting into to me secretly what Ozzie is saying behind the scenes. So I'm getting his temperature, you know after each of his conversations, which is helpful. So I'm trying to work on that. And I feel like we're in a better place Th when he asked me for my shot in the dark, I'm like, I was like, I was like, I can't believe it. He wasn't shot in the dark too. The answer should have been yes, here it is. And of course, I did give it to him eventually. But I was stunned like this and I realized that this is what needs to happen. for him to know that he's back in a position of power, That was my interpretation of what he needed. And I was happy to give him that if it got us through because one, I wasn't really scared of going home at this vote really. I mean, I'm always a little scared, but like I knew that a merge was coming. I wanted to get in our relationship in the best possible place before that merge. And sure enough, I mean, I caught no votes at the tribal council. I don't think I was in any actual danger. And from talking to people after the after after theate after the after the fact People have told me that as well, but at the same time, I didn't want him pissed off going to the murder B Ban Reynolds here from Mid Mbile I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for fifteen dollars a month plan that I've been enjoying. 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It's my one daily pack of gummies covering my greens, vitamins, and minerals Plus it has six grams of prebiotic fiber, which is more than two cups of broccoli. No mixing powders, no giant pills, no hassle. I just rip open the pack and I'm done. They taste good and they make it easy to stay on top of my health, even when life gets busy. Save up to fifty two percent with the code podcast at gros. co That's code podcast at grUNs. co So You get through the de vote and then we have the pairs tribal cououncil. and you're paired up with Jonathan, which in hindsight was probably a good person to be paired up with initially because from opposite sides of where the game was that it sort of like was mutually assured safety for you to be partnered with Jonathan Yes, immediately. And I think that like and that was my immediate reaction. and like this is good for me. But by one thing that like But it was bad from a like the fact that we had Emily and Rick spread out amongst pairs andious targets if I had a couple of like and this is a continuation of a couple of doctrines that I had this season. One of which is I like was being a lot more intentional of the people that I'm targeting at votes. like, you know, like I can be flexible of course I was extremely flexible in my first game, but I want to be more intentional. Like if it's between two people, there's a person who has these qualities is less likely to work with me and blah, blah, blah and should go home But another one is that I will go to bat for you if you're my ally. If you're like I like my deep allies, I'll go to bat for U in my mind early on, that was Sereree. I, you know was, you know, certainly was looking out for her at the first vote when she was being targeted make sure that was not going to happen Not that I was only one, to be clear. A lot of people are involved. I hope it's super clear, this is very collaborative Also for Emily Flippin, like Emily, I want to bat for you I took like the Mike White vote was a real show of loyalty to her. And this was my opportunity to go to bat for Rick and Aubrey and to bring an aubrey into the fold of people that that I was that they say, look, I I mean it when I say that I'm your ally. Look what I did And the reason I fel and as much as I wanted to stay under the radar for the merge, the fact that I was safe ote unquote being with Jonathan, M I had to do a lot of work. It was not stuff that was shown on television. but with Serei gone, she was off on some exile Island. I didn't have her to help move the vote off of Aubberrey and Rick. We didn't know she was coming back Yeah. We had no clue. we thought she was going to go on the whole night Um If I knew she was coming back, I would have laid up Instead, I really went to work trying to move the vote. I'm not saying I did move the vote. Yeah. Sere was certainly critical in that. You called her the cavalry She was the cavalry. They just like, okay this this is going to happen now. It was getting a little dicey. I think that Ozzie and these people they were there thinking like Rick and Aubrey and I was just like, we got to work And I think that and we're making pitches U but at this point Jonathan was whooping me in on the vote. He was saying Oh, here are the people that I could see targeting And he listed everyone except Cach and Chrisy Oh, okay. so Clearly, I can't include him on any coaching Fisy targeting because he will absolutely blow up that spot. Like's that's obvious. Meanwhile, the first names I told Jonathan this afterwards is like that the first names I throw out it's actually kind of a tell. They're probably my allies. I thrw out like, oh I' be okay reing of Rick and Aubrey. I'd be okay with getting rid of Emily and Emily and Riso because if they hear I say that, they know it's a lie. you know And so so it wass clear to me that Jonathan needs to be left out of the boat And he cannot know because he will tip them off And also I need to have some leverage to help flip theote. And I'm not saying this, to be clear, I'm not saying this is what flip the vote. This is just my perspective. Like Chrissy was telling me all the plans, which was great for me in the sense that in theory, I wanted to work with Christy, but now she was a target. Like almost by process of elimination, her coach had to be a target here for me. And so she was telling me about potentially voting out about voting out Rizo and Emily, but leaving Ozzie out of the vote. And I remember thinking, you know what Ozzie loves being left out of the vote I'm sure he would love to hear this information. So I went up to Ozzy and said, Ozy, I just' let you know. I know you're still deciding here. Christy wants to leave you out at this photos. So I just like and I think at that point, Sereree was already back. So I'm not saying that this was any kind of difference maker. But like that's the kind of stuff I was doing. I was burning some bridges to get rid of coaching and Chrisy But it also burned bridges with Jonathan. And I felt I needed to do this because there weren't enough people pushing to save R u u Arey is Aubrey and Rick And so I really put myself out there Yeah And shortly before tribal, Right as I come back from a confessional, I'm like, o, we'll how this goes We'll see if anyone leaks. someone's going to leak. Certainly Then Jonathan comes up to me and says, Christian ard to the vote is now coaching Chrissy. Im like I don't know what you're talking about, Jonathan. I don't know. likeike swearing up now, I don't know. And And I was like, who's leaking? who's leaking? Turns out it was, I believe Ozzie and Si Yeah, I only knew about the time of Azzie And so I'm like Dang it this plays like you're trying to what's the what's the deal here? Are you trying to blow up the plan? Are you trying to get rid of Rick and Arey? What's the plan here? And at tribal council, this like Jonathan starts doing a live tribal really early in the tribal council because he wants to know what's going on. It's already on Haywire And that precipitates Rick going to take out the fake idol. It seems like coming out of this vote though. a lot of people are frustrated with you and Rick in particular Well, I mean, Jonathan was frustrated with me. I mean Jath remind me, edit I haven'twatched my boot episode. only watch it the one time. I only take so much, but Jonathan, I understood U But at the same time I like, I didn't know I mean certainly and Joe was frustrated with Rick Um U But like I didn't say at that point, like, I mean, the people who have been most frustrated are the people who were part of Jonathan's sort of mega alliance. That was one of big conserns M Alliance. It's like this. I mean, like like people call the Zoom Alliance, I think even in the real time, we're taling people calling it the Zoom Alliance on the island um of and and and it's u it appeared to be like A lot of old school thinkers kind of like it. I don't know to I don't have a strong opinion on how pre game this was and I don't really care Um, but it's like it's people like Jonathan, Stephanie, Joe Chrissy and Serei likeike that's a strong five, right? Sorryry Chr sorry Chrissy and coach. I apologize not sry. Christie and coach, although we didn't know how much Azzie and Siri would side with them if necessary. We didn't know. there' some ties there. So so it was really it was the people left over from that who had the most cause to be mad. reallyally are talking Jonathan, Joe and Steph.. I didn't like that collateral damage, but I felt it was necessary to not lose two people and frankly, not give this big alliance, you know, five, maybe six people with only eleven people left in the game And that was dangerous and And that's something that Emily Fliipppon pointed out was super dangerous. So yes, there was collateral damage So tell me about what was going on in what ultimately ends up being this final round of the game for you Yeah, so it was it was a rare two day cycle, which I appreciated. I love it that when there's a two day cycle after I've had to burn a couple bridges, I didn't expect that Jonathan would be back on my side but I did the best effort I best effort to make him believe that I believed he'd be back on my side that I'd be back on that we'd be back together you know, in case that works out. It was very clear Stephanie and Joe were in a weird place. We kind of tch it up a little bit Um, but I want to but like the But I think where I had all my worst ideas was like when I woke up on day eighteen Like I remember I woke up by the fire, I tend to w I tended to sleep faceed down in the dirt by the fire. And I woke up and I and I was thinking and I really stuck in my crawl. I was like Ozzie is like clearly doing some kind of middle gameplay here. There's something going on in the middle. The way that that last vote was handled, there's something happening here and Ozie is somewhere in this group U and and playing the middle is a bad thing. I don't want other people to play the middle. I want them out And and it was like, maybe Ozzie should be the target and And that's why I pitched started pitching the idea of Ozzie And that was just and that was just a bad idea. for a number of reasons. I mean, Ozzie was not Yes, he was in the middle but he's not the type of player that made sense for me to eliminate at that stage U the people my sort of doctrine were people that O a lot of sway and a lot of people that will move with them when they move in a direction And I had a list of those folks. The last of whom was sere. And she was the last one in the game The other were people that could be taken that were being maybe taken deep into the game because people perceived they weren't doing very much or perceived not to be threats. And I emphasis on the perceived because one of those people was Rizzo. He was just perceived to be that way. He was doing a lot in watching the show One of the reasons he was being taken deep is because he was lying in the shelter. He was sick eating And so like, it's like, okay And coincidentally, those are two of the other people I didn't know this. that were part of this actual middle, right? So if I had gone by my original doctrine, pointed me in one of those two directions. Now, getting them out how that would work would have been challenging I shouldn't have been the one, I definitely shouldn't be the one pitching it I needed other people to pitch I mean, I don't think that Serei was pitching my name. I don't think that Ozzie was pitching my name at this point until I threw out their name. And that really that's when things started boomering on me opposed to being just some vote that wasn't Mmhm. Okaykay. You are feeling let Maybe things are going in a negative direction. You come out of the challenge where Jeff has participated and you are vulnerable for the vote and they're looking for somebody to go on a journey Yes. So my thinking was I wanted like and I' still fixated on Ozzie being this middle person and then if he's playing the middle, he's an enemy to multiple sides and we can mobilize votes on it. It was all was all misguided based on that al I told Suri, But my thinking is in which place, I don't want him having the advantage Like even if I like went and didn't get the advantage, that's fine. He doesn't get it Um and even if I got it, if it' something I didn't want, I could throw it into the fire Like if like, you know, if I is like like, look, Ier manage doror Mike, you know, throw it in the fire or something. I didn't know if I would do that, but that was like on the table. The point was to keep it away from Ozie. but I think that might principal mistake this round is I did not need to be the person doing these things. Um, like I think I was coming off of this last vote where I felt like, yes, I have to be the person doing this. I'm the one that's safe from the Jonathan vote. I have to protect my allies. I have to go to bat for them. to show that they to make to show that they I'm loyal to them and I will keep keep looking after them. I didn't have to be the one who did it. So really that's like day eighteen is like where like all like my bad ideas really so kind of consolidate, you know You Go to the floating barge and you are going to be doing this puzzle. You're you You have done, you know, some famously done some puzzles G passed on Survivor that were you confident when you approached this puzzle Well, I mean I wasn't, mostly because it's a type of puzzle, right? I mean, like puzzles that I'm really good at are ones where there are sequences of moves that you need to do. Likeide puzzles is a classic example of that. L like that's's sort of's very amenable to optimization techniques and really sequences and patterns. Also like even an opening challenge, opening reward challenge, there was like a puzzle where you had to like move these oars back and forth to maneuver the things I did exactly.'s like that that I get that. likeike, oh yeah I come up with some kind of backward strategy that's counterintuitively kind of good, right? really great moment when you just like put all the things to the left and then and then went through it. Yeah, that was I was p of back Yeah, it's like I'm loving it, right? but but jigsaw puzzles I I don't love because really you just got to kind of grind them out. You find the pattern. Okay, does that fit does that fit very different skill set. I'm not particularly great at those. not even very good at them. A. But I went thinking it wouldn't be one of those because they've done so many on the season. I was like they've had so many of these jigsaw puzzles of the Survivor logo. they've got to do something different. So I was th, it might be a puzzle, a la what Rachel what Rachel did on Sason forty sevenh. That usually great at that. Oh yeah,'s that's my alle. Or I thought this is season fifty, Rob. Where's the survivor trivia? Where's the Hunter Survivor T trivia challenge? I like this, I'm thinking like, that's what's then I pull up and I could see en of things like, it was a Jigsw puzzle? L like Don't panic, but try to work through it So but no, I was not confident Um And when I read the note and I saw what it was for, I was like This is not a great advantage I'm not sure exactly what I can do with this. This is kind of a cross this is kind of a somewhere between an extra vote and a bank vote kind of I'm not sure what I can use this for. If I win it to throw would have wroten the E earurn, which I'm guessing would have been for Ozzie, just because I wouldn't have know who the target was, right I just like so anyway, so I do the so I'm not confident going into the puzzle. I think in the end, going actually watching it back. I was I was more closer than I remembered being. It felt like it was so far away, but there's only a handful like four pieces left or something. and that point, you know, those puzzles become easier at the end. So yeah if I hadn't gotten stuck in the middle of the puzzle, I feel like that I actually could have done that. this is kind of frustrating. Yeah. is the issue that because the words are on both sides. Is that what the real challenge is? It's like there's two ways that each piece could go that's true, Yes. And that is true of all survivor puzzle challenges. I mean, I never went and bought survivor puzzles to practice. callall that arrogance, call that, you know, I just like I just felt like that's not what survivor' about is over preparing for a particular puzzle But we're bu emotion on Etsy. Apparently it is, apppparently it is. And this maybe something that like I I would really just like if I could redo anything in my pre game challenge just buy this buy this stuff on Etsy. Just buy it on Etsy. junk up your house or whatever. you have it you have in your So I'm sorry,'ll sellers out there. you know, I hope you make a lot of money. Everyone go out and buy these things. I mean, mean to say U But the the but the double sided puzzle, Jakesaw, that's different than the type of Jakesaw puzzle you do at home. Right. So you really specifically try and try to do those And so you get this letter from Jimmy Fallon Yeah And you don't even know what it's going to be. In your wildest dreams could you have imagined what it was going to say Absolutely not. Like I mean, it was foreboding and it's like it's like it's not going to be good for you. But in my head I'm still thinking like youll lose your vote, right? Um, like because that's what typically happens on a journey. What could be worse like like what would they do that is worse than that as a result of like not doing a journey correctly It was really bad. It's just like like u And I so I had no idea it was going to be that bad. I think that I was I'm still kind of just on the way at home. I was just processing, Oh man, it sucks. I had to lose that puzzle. It sucks U onn the way home from theuzzle, the way home from Fiji the way from from puzzle, Ipologize, Yes, on the way back the way know my home, my tribal home. Yeah. so I really should have been thinking, what could this thing be? And but I don't think I'd ever thought that Have you ever given a thought about is there any way that you could have played this differently Kning what it was, when you have one in the earn? Is there a way that you could have made this work for you Yes. the I mean It would be to bluff about what the actual advantage was because a lot of people wouldn't already believe that I have to actually vote for myself. Like there are some people who are skeptical of whether this is actually a thing And I could and I can also play it off as like this is a double edggeed sword kind of this is a double edged sword advantage. come with an idol as well I could tell the wrong person the fact that I have an idol, right? And so and and so I think if I knew if I and the piece and again, the the the clues were there that I was going to be blindsided post community challenge I think I talked about them in our exit interview. so I won't rehash them here. But like the so it was possible to know at that point that Serei had flipped. So I could have said Sereis like Sree I, you know, I I also have an idol They probably would have split the votes, but if we know they're splitting the votes, we could pull an operation Italy type situation where you exploit the split vote you get a majority I mean, I didn't thought about all the details of that because I hadn't sure. It's a little painful to relive that that end of that experience, but that's what comes to mind Let me ask you about you went to go you talked to Jimmy Fallon about this Did you feel like That was did Jimmy Fallon really feel bad about what he did. I think that should be found int get much it. He's got it's like a year ago that this happened. I mean, mean my he was super friendly. I mean, I think that, you know, I think that a lot of these celebrities were approached like, hey, you want to do thing and they're like, Oh, yeah, let's do this thing. They might even pitch on what these things are, right? And like I don't I don't even like blame the guy because like I mean, he's not a game designer. like by he's not like a profession. He's not like making blood on the clock tower in his free time. mayaybe is not the stereotype of Jimmy. So I don't like that he's a great inventor. Is that a thing? Yeah, I think from what I hear I hear he likes he likes to come up with ideas and inventions Oh that's cool. I mean, like he's a creative guy, but like the impact of of a new twist on a game is very hard to predict. I mean, this was a particularly bad one, but like effect on the game, but like, I mean, I don't I mean He's living his life. he's talking to three celebrities a night. And so like I was just really just tickled to be there. I mean, like I got voted out a sururvivor, something that is overwhelmingly likely to happen when you play a season of Survivor And byy the end of it, I'm jumping on Jimmy Fowon to talk about it. and I even get to talk about the fact that I'm a robotics professor on Jimmy Fowon. and like this is insane This is Rob this wasn't even supposed to happen. wasn't I was nott supped to be on Jimmy Foul I'm not sure if this is publicly known, but like like, u They were going to have like I was I went to New York for the for the exit press. I was there for CBS mornings, which was funny. I meet Gayail King. sure. She's she's shes she's a formidable interviewer Yeah and um As you know, you as you met. And and see And and I was told that yeah, Jimmy Fallon, you know, he's, unfortunately, he's all booked for guests. you know, we explore the idea.'s not going to work. You know, but he will he'll do a TikTok with you. He'll do something like, you know, pop back backstage or something that would do a TikTok. because that's great. Look, I'm not You know, I'm not entitled to any of this. Like I'm just a guy on on a reality show. And I'm doing my exit press with like you and others like on that day, like around noon. and then like CBS person pops in my ear during my interviews' like, Christian,'re gonna be on a fallon. I'm like God. Like it's like like this it just happened And it was more or less told to me from the producers when we were doing our pre interviews that it was in the hands of the fans. The fans on Jimmy Fallon's socials to such a degree to let their displeasure with the twist be known They felt obligated to put me on the show. They didn't say in those exact words, but that's me switting between the lines. So so thank you fans. Thankk you fans for making that happen. They they They bumped Joel Egerton Tarn Egertton, Tarn Egerton, the of the Kingsman movies, it seems like my wife was texting me he's good