Final Thoughts and Looking Toward Parvati

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Hey Sustinino, you know what to do. The man who's going to make the case. You got my back, Mike, okay Mr. Mike Blue. Yes, Rob, happappy Father's Day. to you. As we talk about arguably the most famous sururvivor dad as well, among seven hundred fifty one contestants so much th so that he's had the most amount of Survivor babies four timimesfold. Yep. So happappy Father's Day to Boston Rob Mariano. We'll be talking about you here today as we continue our series exploring who is Svivors's greatest of all time We have narrowed the pool down to Five people, this is we are right in the middle Okay, This is the third of five episodes where we are talking about who is Survivor's goat. Earlier in this series, we started in reverse alphabetical order. We talked about Tony and Mike Bloom made the case why Tony is the goat Then last time out, I made the case why Sandra is the goat. We flipped the coin. Mike side came up heads and so is going to be telling us today why making the case for why Boston Rob is the greatest of all time and I will be in the unenviable position of having to play deevil's advocate and tell you why maybe he's not It's interesting to say unenviable though, Rob, because I feel like your opinion is just going to represent the large amount of online survivor discourse that we've seen for the better part of at least the past like ten plus years, right? Yeah. listen, so Mike, I'm not going to do your job for you and tell you why Rob That was part of my plan was I thought you were just gonna supplicate yourself. No. No' ping possible rats from him. We've this list down to a top five baby of that in This is the the list of fivees to pick from of that and your one through five may differ. But I think that the actual number one has to be one of these five Yes. I think demonstraable so evenven that's the argument I sort of made last week when I was also in the unightable position of being anti Sandra is like there's no denying any of these people top tier legends of their craft. That's when we really have to, you know, split hairs here and figure out who is the greatest among them. Yeah. And there's a case to be made for all of them and there's a case to not be made for all of them. And that's how this podcast started. So today We're talking about Rob Mariano, a person who's been a survivor staple for these twenty I guess maybe twenty four years for him in this game and I think that of the five peopleld we'll talk about he played the earliest. Oh yeah And he's just been a staple in survivor since the very, very the single Digies, as they call it I'm so glad you bring that up Bob because I think that perfectly segues into my opening argument here. A segue more digestible than Faferu. though that's not saying much here. because listen, I've done a lot of thinking over the course of this week. when I was deemed this roll. I really had to chew over Again, much like that fopper, this idea of What are we doing? What are we looking for? Care fing Exactly. And so this is the podcast. We're trying to figure out who's the goat. That's what we do now. It's the off season. And so I thought much like Survivor evolves in the criteria that they try to use. I thought I'd take a page out of Survivor's book here and try to shoe horn in our rulebook Oh, if only, if only. I mean, that should be like my rest of my case. He wrote the book on how to win Survivor before it was cool and everyone was doing it. Look at you, Rob. I'm going to try to fit a syllabus. into this much like the show briefly tried their little period right of like, Oh, well O would all play out last in the final tribal cououncil I wonder, Rob, and look everyone's criteria is different. But when it comes to analyzing Who is the goat? There are three pillars that I chiefly look for personally First off, there's a very weighty one, much like Outwit was about just like general body of work. This is gameplay. this is strategy. this is social components. This is for some people, physical components, individual challenge wins, longevity, et cetera Then, I think for some people, there's entertainment value Survivor is a TV show the end of the day. I saw some people in our Sandra video comment like Sandra should be given bonus points because she burned Russell's hat. Like there is something about enjoying watching these people on television that I think boost their legacies even more. Like certainly people have changed the game. There was an entire season about it But there's something about these five that also are such fantastic personalities in their own right that also vault them into the top tier But the third one that I've spoken about many times as well his legacy is longevity in the mouths of these fans let alone in their hands as well as innovation And so Great is a term obviously that can be applied to quality as to the best player Wh's ever existed But I want to challenge that a little bit and talk about Great in the sense of Size immensity Gravity cannot find a person who represents the world great in that capacity more then one Robert Mariano. a person who I would say outside of Jeff Pes is the face of Survivor. He has played the most American seasons in six seasons. one as a participant, yes, but was there for thirty six days. someomeone who has, in my opinion, the biggest character arc. in survivor history. and just so happen to put together the most dominant single season performance in the show's history. That is just icing on the cake. And so I am here to prove to you not only you know, why Boston Robbss gameplay is so supreme that it forever changed the face of the show alsoso why his entire presence has made Survivor what it was I'm looking forward to it Okay. Well, let' let's get into it then, shall we? Because I am going to go back to what I mentioned before and look There, you know, we have two time winners here. I very much understand it. But as I mentioned before, I am looking at quality instead of quantity here. it's the way we split these hairs when it comes to analyzing the top five. cannot be denied. the absolute masterclass that Boston Rob put on in Survivor Redemption Island I don't know if you have anyter arguments to present at the top here. Jiston, I would love to hear about the time that he as a fourth time player played against an incredible crop of new Survivor Town Well, I take your sarcasm literally here because yes, I do want to counteract some of those arguments. The first being that there's going to be asterisk attached to all of these people Right And I think that Boston Rob, yes, it was his fourth time playing and he's up against a crop of entire newbies. But if you look every other season that has functioned by this captain's theme, right? which is okay, two, three, four returning players are playing against a group of newbies Yes, a' good amount of them have made it to the end None of them Have one. the exception of Boston Rob. You even had people like Stephanie like coach. who made it to the end who completely floundered and lost out despite the fact that on paper They should have won, right? They have the value of experience and that's because isn't just that. you know, that's something that certainly gives you a lead in the race But you have to maintain that pace. And the other argument course is that listen, these are not f bright scholars necessarily that Boston Rob is playing with when no offense to mr. Cultural appropriation himself, Gran Batos. Ashley, who's that undernderwood? Nat ten, not necessarily a ten in the strategic department. F nice person. Very nice person. to that, I say Hey You sort of have to play with the cast that you are given. I think that people talk to. okay. what's the comparison in terms of single season performance? Kin Bradlin Do you mean the cast that Jeff Proositly went on the record to say we cannot cast people this dumb ever again? That cast Sure. Yeahah, that's a very stacked one that makes Kim the best single season performance of all time. The other thing being, yes, there's been a lot of critiques about, oh, there are just mindless zombies that would do whatever Rob wanted. In fact, Ashley says it in conffessional Is that not by design Here's what I will say that makes Rob stand out from the other people that occupy this entire series when you have peopleeople like Sandra, Parvety, even Tony to a certain extent in winners at war, they had circumstances not go their way that they had to sort of like their way out of either get taken to the end or, you know, through immunities or fire making be able to get there in a scenario where otherwise they would lose against, you know, the people that they were going to the end with Boston Rob handand picked The group that he went to the end with He sat there with Philip and Natally who he pegged. if you watch Redemption Allally from like episode three or four, he's literally in a confessional, one of his many this season saying, all right, theseese are the two I'm going to sit at the end with and like babe frreaking Ruth, a former Red sock himself He called a shot and he hit a home run. And so then Rob was able to do so masfully here was then systematically say, this is my goal. This is what I need to do to then winnow down everything to get to that point So yes, was the end game dominated by for lack of better term Rubes Absolutely, but that's because Rob made it his mission to get rid of all the non Rubes from the game as soon as possible I love that you brought up Babe Ruth because to me, that is I think the perfect corollary to who Boston Rob is that he is a figure who at one time is larger than the sport itself. pererhaps it's most famous participant in the sport of baseball bothoth spent time in Boston at one point as well. And you could also make the case that Boston Rob broke the curse of the Bambino when he wore a Red Sox hat to go and play in Survivor All Stars and the subsequent season, the Boston Red Sox did win the World Sies, but that being said, that is Babe Ruth the greatest baseball player of all time? And to that, I also would say no He may be the most famous baseball player of all time, but I think that he is a figure who was known for the long ball. He also could pitch also. So I don't want to say that he is not multifaceted, but if you were going to be playing baseball in the year twenty twenty six, would Babe Ruth necessarily be the prototype for what you're looking for? The game has changed. And while at one point that that was what you were looking for coming out of the deeadball era perhaps, then a Boston Rob is exactly what you'd be looking for. but I just think that in terms of what you would be looking for for the greatest survivor player of all time, I think that when Rob is able to play his game He has it on lockdown, command and control, the buddy system. Everybody do what I say and everything's going to work out fine for me. When people don't listen to that, that's when we have problems. So certainly there will be scenarios like we saw in Redemption Island when Boston Rob is in the right group with the right group of people who are looking to him set up as the mentor, the leader for them to follow Hey, stick with me and you'll be safe. And he can deliver on that promise for a while. If you are subservient and do what he says, you will have longevity in the game. And I think that a lot of times people are seeking safety in these games. We see that in sururvivor al or no Deal Island in the trainers, even in the amazing race at times that people want to be safe. They're scared and they go to him when they are scared and the people that cross him should be scared because that he will do whatever he can to take them out If enough people say, hey, we're not doing this I think that the whole House of cards can fall apart Now, I do agree with that. I think enough people is sort of the corollary here because yes, Until winners at warar, Bostson Rom never sat on a jury. But I think the situations with which he is voted out is very interesting As he says, I think this is in winners at warar. Maybe know it was in Remption Island. He's like if these people were smart, they get rid of me immediately because of what I can't do, but they're not smart and they're not going to Yeah do. And that's the thing. It's incredibly staggering. And we talked about this with Sandra last week as well that the fact that this man's profile continues to grow, that he becomes, again, the most famous contestant face, I would say. Now maybe now the littleiteral Emmy winner is going to perhaps challenge that in terms of notoriety around the world. But like you said, in terms of like the empire, he basically There was a pandemic before twenty twenty Robin. it was called Romber fever and it had swept the entirety of CBS as a television network. got Tuess of the amazing race. We got a wedding special. We got Robin Amber against the Odds. like he hosted that show called the Ultimatum or something. like he was all over the place. but All that is be remiss to say that is something to the skill set that Rob possesses And I think that yes, command and control is something that we mostly know him for as right of course, infamously in herress versus Valant. He says, if you're not with me, you're against me, whichich Russell will then used to to lovingly copt, perhaps much like Walter White wore the garb of the people that he killed over the course of get off the door. R. Yeah, exactly. But I do think that Rob is able to posossess uniquely, this very innate ability to read and analyze situations and be able to like continue to have a grasp on it. That's the other thing too Redemption Island on paper might be a cake walk But do you know the work required to make a cake, Rob. It is a meticulous measuring of ingredients, a consistent changing in the flavor profile to make sure that certain things work together and that one ingredient does not sour the cake. It is persistent timing waiting to make sure that the yeast rises at a certain time to make it spongy but not too dry overall And so Boston Rob was putting in the work in Redemption Island Yes, it seems like on paper Okay, this is something that like he just kind of sat back and coasted on his own reputation But we see this from a show like Big Brother. So does Boston Rob, as we know, he's a massive Big Brother fan. Yes. But we get to see from the live feed perspective, which some of these players tough this is to do He consistently talks about being this general and this army But his soldiers are all on paper, free thinking individuals who also have their own desires to win the war here. And so it takes An astounding amount of skill to be able to yes, while fear keeps people oiled that's straight out of the gofather. and he certainly makes some impressive moves to set up this idea of like, if you cross me, you are done in this game He put it so beautifully with you, Rob, in one of the first podcasts he did on this very network, going back probably about ten plus years at this point where he said a key facet to succeed in survivor is that you have to convince someone else that your idea is their idea. And that, I think is the key to what he's been able to do and why he's been able to be so successful on so many shows for the better part of a quarter of a century. Yeah The shit I don't want to take anything away from the work he did in Redemption Island. And I feel like that you've made that point very clear. and I agree with it that he did an incredible job in Survivor Redemption Island. I think that it was be best showcase for his talents of what he was able to do. It was really the perfect landing spot for him to come in, especially coming off of Survivor Heroes versus villains, where he was shown as like the heroic villain that if they would have just listened to him Ething would have worked out. And so he comes in again with the counter point of the other tribe is getting Russell. and so that he is really put in dropped into this amazing landing spot with younger people for the most part, who are looking to him to keep them safe, to be their leader, to teach them the ropes And so it's just the most ideal landing spot that he could at that particular point in his survivor career where he's so hungry for the win. And he works tirelessly for thirty nine days to ensure that it happen. He didn't luck into a win in Survivor Redemption Island. He hustled his ass off to make sure it happened, it just happens to be that the perfect landing spot for him to have been in to ultimately capitalize on his skills. Yes, but We should also say here that this was not the first time that Boston Rob sat at a final tribal council. And look, we can certainly talk about the way things ended As much as we are impressed by Okay, everything that he was able to do. And I think going back to again, that argument of Okay, well Boston Rob was only able to keep these people in control because they were wilely twenty something newbies who didn't know survivor and put them in the rear end Let's go to survivor All Stars. shhall we. If we have to. I'm soall you just open up that that wound again, Rob, but you know, on paper. Yeah, when it is the best of the best, a stacked cast of players Boston, Rob and Amber ran circles around them sayay what you want to about the Medicave of getting rid of the winners and fantastic legends ahead of time. That was just going to be the natural structure of things, but There were no slouches in that end game either to watch the grip that these two had around this group. Not only that, but the fact that like technically speaking, you're at the final nine and there is a very palpable couple In a final two scenario, you know they're going to take each other to the end above me. Wh would I work with them And the fact that they somehow wound up in the final two and were basically only in trouble like a scote of times over the course of that. is astounding to me and I think speaks to the amount of skills and manipulation they were able to utilize among a top tier cast of individuals Yeah, Survivor R Stars is also a unique situation. and I think we have to go back to the Robin Amber getting split up and talk about that because that was really I've called it maybe the most important thing that ever happened on Survivor of that moment where Rob comes to Lex and says, Hey You take care of her, I'll take care of you. If you can, if you can you can you can. And he trades on this bond that him and Lex had outside of the game And he gets and shows that Rob is willing to, you know, put everything on the table in order sold out his friend for a stack of green backs. as they say. and that he was able to make that happen. and You know It was one of the most important things that ever happened on the show for sure and I just don't know if it's repeatable in any way. It happened. But It also he kind of lost the game in that moment also I totally agree with that. you know, And I think it was out of desperation. His number one ally was swapped onto the other side. and this is not to bemoan the fact like Amber does put in the work as well. It's not really talked about, but like Amber makes this deal with Kathy. It's one of the reasons why Kathy doesn't b with Amber of like Hey, if you vote Jerry out instead of me, we're going to work with Rob and big Tom. It'll be us five until the end does showcase the fact that yes, was Rob banking a little bit on friendship there. Absolutely, but like We talked about Tody and Sarah weeks ago, we talk about all the friends that Sandra has and their ability to rely on past relationships And all stars, yes, I agree is is a weird thing because correct me if I'm wrong here I don't think anyone knew how personal the game was going to get. This was the first time that there was a returning player season in general. And I think that It's not like Rob was so callous to be like Lex is not my friend anymore. L I think he was legitimately really conflicted to do this. Even when he votes Lex out, he's like, I God, I wish it did not comeike he actually los to no pleasure in it. It was not like that he I mean, he was a little bit in the conffessionals like And he glos about it to his brother. Let's be honest a little bit he he did not take any pleasure in it and I know personally that over the years he made a lot of overtures to try to, you know, Six the men the relationship And so it was something where, you know, I think that Rob I bet would still do it again, but it wasn't the type of thing where this he wasn't necessarily like Hanian in terms of enjoying what he did. He wasn't in that he's got a sadist. And that's the thing is that it was a gamble, right? It was possibility of having Lex take this extremely personally. But again, this was such a new concept to so many people that you watch that final tribal cououncil Rob is taken aback with how vindictive, I think people are and how much he made them feel so adversely. like I think I'm reading a sincerity that I think he feels he walkks so much stuff back and that's what he tells Natalie on D thirty nine of her Deadh and being like, you know what, last time? I cowtaow to them too much. I should have stood up for my game a little bit more and not to say that would have won him necessarily anything at the end of the day, but yeah, because I do think that those who voted for him Not to mention, you know, obviously Lx, that bridge was burned. but someone like Kathy who was just as betrayed by Rob, if not more does vote for him. Yeah in the end. So I think that what you're saying and I think what also what I'm saying and maybe what we have a disagreement about here today is that I think that Boston Rob's philosophy is that he is going to Go for broke at all costs. He's much like Babe Ruth, he's swinging for the fences ands or nothing. It's all or nothing. and he has very little margin for error where if it works It's going to go great. He's going to get to the end. He's probably going to win if he gets there because he did so much doesn't work. If the people around him just decide, hey, we're not going to let you do this, then it's going to ultimately not end well for him. And I want to just bring in our conversation that we had about Sandra from a couple of weeks ago And from with Sandra She doesn't need to she may swing for the fences and strike out But it's not over for her that she does not necessarily she has for a variety of reasons, a margin for error. so she doesn't have to play completely perfect And I think that It's I know it's it's kind of counterintuitive But I feel like that We Greatest player of all time. It doesnt it shouldn't have to need to be perfect one hundred percent of the time Well, I mean for it to work. I would say you're talking about. Well, okay. I see what you're talking about there. But what I would first say is that I think it can almost be a credit to Boston Rob because let us establish this. This is a play style does not work for ninety nine percent of individuals in survivor. You just invoked Russell Hs, who made who also himself invoked many comparisons to Boston Rob. Boston Rob says at the Heroes versus Villains reunion, like The difference between me and Russell is that I play a win and Russell doesn't. But certainly the way that Russell was able to run that post merge, burning relationships along the way, very akin to maybe what Yeah, exactly. And that many pieces of wardrobe as well is akin to on paper what Rob is doing in All Stars. But even in general, I mean Going back to the general, his origin in Marcasis, Another thing that should be talked about, again, when I go back to this legacy pillar is that Boston Rob creates these pretty enterprising moves that had never been seen on the show up to that point Hunter Ellis cararved out in Marble, seem like if you ask Chat GPT, give me the person who's guaranteed to make the merge in every single survivor season You know, this was a pilot, this was a boy Scout. this was the alpha male leader, fantastic and all challenges And Boston Rob again, what I given credit for is that he will look at a situation and say I don't want this to happen. So it's not going to happen anymore. And obviously the big power flip that happens with the Road two four is going to be the much more talked about thing, but this is a pretty dang significant moment as well because it truly showcased on paper Nobody should be safe And it also showcase, I think, for the first time for me with survivor This was a guy that single handedly contontrol. of his tribe in previous seasons like in Africa or sorry, in Australia when you have like Tol Bantine and Keith. takeake over Ogacorore. That's one thing. But this was Bosser Rob being like All right. I woke up, I want Hunter out, so I'm going to spend all of today working to get Hunter out and he's succeeded. You know, you I know there's a lot of coulda would have should as if some buts were candided and nuts we wouldd all a Merry Christmas. but like You do wonder if Madama wasn't such a hot mess. If Boston Rob goes to maybe one or two fewer tribal councils, not he's not in a shit position to come the merge. Could he have wound up, you know, making it pretty dang far because Even in his first season, the most remedial form of this man, he was able to pull off one of the biggest coups the show had seen through four seasons So voting out Hunter is really interesting. It's his origin story and it really is The first time that we get to see how Rob views the survivor world. He's not going to function where Hunter's driving and he's part of it. That doesn't work for him. He doesn't want to play. He'd rather lose and go and do it his way than just be a cog in somebody else's plan And so we see him from and it was a shocking moment when it happened. I will remember until the day I die of what it was like when I watched that episode and my mind was blown. and he was such a captivating player and somebody that I really connected with so much as a viewer from the way that he carries himself. And when he did this, it was like, oh this is a bad idea. Don't do this. But he did it And you were you had to see what was going to happen next. But I think it speaks to an inflexibility of that it's his way or the highway in terms of how it's going to work out. Perhaps Survivor Marcases does go better for him if they end up. And I don't remember who Hunter was trying to vote out on that vote. W that was probably Sarah, right? Be she was a bit of deadweight in the challenges. Yeah on Who knows? Wh knows how that ultimately plays out, but Rob will never know because that's just not how he's ever going to look at the game and it ends up when it works, it works, but when it doesn't, he ends up becoming the biggest target on the board and there's just so many ways where it could go wrong when we're talking about the person that we're saying is going to be the greatest player of all time Summer' here, we're out, We're trying to look cool. I'm telling you it gets hot here in my office too. I want something that looks good where I'm not going to overheat. 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Look what they did to Gabe And not to say that like he's the strawl that serves the drrag But he definitely I think helps get the ball rolling at least a little bit. in the camp that will happen the very next week that will be one of the most seismic shifts to show has ever seen. And again, it's this it's this idea of him sitting in a situation and being like, I'm not cool with the status quo Let me put in the work to change that And that does take a lot of gumption. Plenty of players can sit by the wayside wait for their timing There is kudos to Rob's aggression here. let's go to his other two seasons. Well, man, should we stay Marcasas? because I feel like that when when we talk about the ending of Marcasus, the person who ultimately goes on to win the season is We Um I'm trying to think the the right word here, but basically the person who is the antithesis of Boston Rob as a player, the person who is going to go along to get along and play under the radar and the person who is just going to deal with the powers that be and ultimately wait it out and make her moves at the right time. And the person who that is is obviously Visepia And so when we talk about, yeah, Rob was the person who was trying to stir crap up and Viseppi iss like, I don't want any of this drama and ultimately prove to be the better play in terms of not a legacy in terms of the notoriety that comes with being the face of survivor. did end up being the way to win this season of Survivor Well, that's what I'm bringing up as well actually, which is my overall argument that again, yes, this type of gameplay is not the optimal way any general player should play. L general out of this, Mike. That's the other That's the other Rob. God. whoo would have thought the sliding doors, right? Be I think the story there is like Boston Rob was at a tribal council and there's a whole Rob Robert mix up and The general was like, well, I'm from New York. So called me New York, Rob and that became the general and Boston Rob just became a brand evermore. But regardless, I think that the point that I'm trying to make through all of this is, yes This is a typical gameplay. So it should be lauded that he has been as successful as he has been because of it. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago with Tony that like this is not the prototypical way to win survivors. So the fact that he's been able to have this be his playstyle. and succeed in the myriad ways it has in varying capacities across various shows It's a Jen Squix. We called Tony of the unicorn, but like oss arrves at Chuacabra. Well, he's great at what he does. There's a reason why the producers of these shows love him because he is always going to bring conflict. He's never going to even though they say that Redemption Island may be not the most exciting season. He's going to always be creating conflict and be going for it at every opportunity. You don't have to ever worry about as a TV producer that Boston Robs is going to sit back and do nothing. And so you you love having him on a show I just don't think that his playstyle, which he is the best what he does is not the best play style that you would advocate for somebody to go in and win survivor as often as possible But I guess the question is is that what the greatest player of all time should be? Should it be the style that applies the most to everybody and is the most successful play style or should it be Wow, the things that you've been able to pull off is incredibly impressive and perhaps sometimes despite your personality or due to your personality, only you have been able to succeed because of it. I think it should be a skill set that's portable, a skill set that you can put into any season and almost any era and that you would have really great results from it. I think that where Rob has really done the best are these situations where he's looked at as somebody who is a leader And that isn't necessarily going to be every scenario. I think that he's u could be in other tribes where other people are vying for that leadership. And that's going to be an immediate power struggle right off of the bat where he's not somebody that you would say is going to be the person who's going to go far in every single season that you put him in. He's not necessarily going to be a end game participant in every single season. He's Rather all or nothing Som I want to bring up speaking of, you know, these eras. Let's talk about winners at War. Let's talk about seemingly his final time on Survivor because I think we just largely remember and listen, it was the beginning of twenty twenty, we largely memory hold a lot of this was like, well Buston Robbs shot himself in the foot because he tried the buddy system and it didn't work with adept players like this. But actually if you rel litigate the five episodes that he's on. You know, there's a lot of talk about Boston Rob can only play from the top down once he's on the bottom. He's done for Boston Rob was low key on the bottom in the beginning of Svivor winners at war. The old schoolers are outnumbered. I think Bob puts together a better performance than people remember. The first day pulls Parvety aside and is basically like, listen, the last time we were together, it did not work out. Let's let bygones be bygones. Let's make amends. You know, they formed this old school alliance. He also builds bridges with Ethan. someone he was shit talking and tackling into a mini ool in all stars two decades ago and Boston Rob was was able to sit back a little bit. He was not yes, there were moments where he's like everybody dump out your bags to see who has the idol again speaks to Why did they all do that? Why did they just not say? No Adam Klein literally has a moment where he says, like I do not want to get onob Boston Rob's bad side. You know, you do not want to mess with the Godfather. You come for the king. you best not miss And so I personally think that bosser Rob came in kind of boxed in from the beginning because if you look a little bit to your west you may see a giant forty foot statue of him. and you may not know the circumstances. and Lord knows you don't want to after you've heard about it. But when you need a reminder of like, oh, who's someone that you don't want to let get far You can see him right there right then. It's come full circle back to all stars where yes, there was no statue of Richard Hatch, of Tina Weston of Rob Sesternino, but a certain reminder of Oh yeah. no, we've got to get rid of them immediately They don't. And it should be mentioned here that I think When Boston Rob, yes, he gets put into a numerical advantage on his swap tribe, but he's not put on there with any allies. At all, Ben and Adam are not sticking together. They're getting along like oil and water or blood and water And so I think he knew he was screwed. It was a Last second Hil Mary. And in fact, the entire pre swap up to that point was looking for ways to handicap Boston, Rob, whether it was getting rid of Amber Get rid of Tyson, getting rid of Danny getting rid of Ean. But you know who they never got rid of Boston Rod And I think that says something So I want to try to follow The while your trajectory here on the Boston Rob where you say that he played back in the beginning of winners at warar I feel like yes, he was on the bottom and he was forced to play that way because he started on the bottom, but The playing on the bottom, it was not necessarily like he went along with somebody else's plan there of whoever you want to say was going to be running that whatever tried that red was it red or blue who blue Cella Wh knows Whatever tribe he was on, was he didn't go along with whatever the other people were doing. He said, Okaykay, I'm going to overthrow this to get this to a point where I'm running this tribe Well, yes, okay. So let me clarifyah. because I do think there might be some some mudding in there. Yes, I don't think he necessarily was like, I'm going to be a passenger for this vote. No. I Rob cleaned up given the fact that the first big move he made was booting a pilot. Rob loves to be a pilot himself But again It's It's not necessarily piloting and having the compulsion to do so as much as it is like tellelling the co pilot Oh wow, you did a really good job flying through that Westerly. you know, like knowing that they were actually on the controls the entire time. And actually before the swap happens and again, this is another Who knows what will happen if they don't end up having another swap here, but Boston Rob. Yes, he had just lost basically everyone except Poverty But there was talk amongst the new schoolchers of we want to get rid of poverty specifically. because we want Boston Rob on our side. and Boston Rob Flat out lies to Michelle and Jeremy and is like, you won't believe the crap Adams revealing to me over and over again They actually are turning against Adam in that moment. So Yes, he's not playing from a position of passivity. He still is going to use the adamancy with which he always does. He can only be himself at the end of the day I think that he's not necessarily in a position where he's like, okay, I'm on the outs. Well, I'm just gonna keep forcing something in and it's not going to work. There are subtle things that he does to change that still pays off relatively successfully. No doubt. the skill set is incredible. pererhaps unmatched in being able to manipulate and deceive others. To what end. Yes, he's able to get through that vote and save Parvty. But when the time comes, the people that he's lying about ultimately, the shoe is on the other foot. Adam does not feel allegiance to him and wants to stay with him and protect him So yeah, he's able to work his way through a thorny situation to like rather rather than go with an outcome that was not his idea. He's going to burn the boats to make sure he gets his way, but ultimately ends up getting boxed in in this scenario where Adam and Ben don't want to keep him around. He's too juicy of a target to take out don't really Derit him too much for that. he ultimately ends up going out right after Parvervety and Sandra, correct? Right before. Right before. So I basically all three of those tribes the tribal council all three of them vote out. It was a bad idea to go to such small tribes in winners at war. No Theyose you know, some of their real heavy hitters So you know, we can't discredit him too much for getting voted out in that spot. But you know the point you're making about like look what he's able to do ultimately does have a side effect in that there are people who just do not want to stay loyal to him that's one of the large points you brought up that a lot of people bring up as well is this inflexibility in play style. And that might work in the micro, right? At least the way Rob presented and listen, it might be for TV as well because I think that there is a very social side to this gameplay that we don't necessarily see because it's all hyper strategic oblobviating shit talking people and confessionals, but like People are not going to want to work with you if they don't like you. Yeah. And like it's very clear. if you watch Ponderosa through Redemption Island as an example, like Boston Rob builds relationships with people. Yes, that does burn him in seasons like all stars, but like There's a reason why people wanted to bring him to the end, why they felt locked in with him. In the touchy subjects challenge in All Stars, he has voted, who would you trust most with your life? Yeah It does speak to I think his ability to be social. but all that is to say, is that yes, in the micro, it might feel like my way or the highighway is an inflexible way to play. But I think what should be noted for Boston Robin when we speak to his overall arc is that As we've seen as recent as Survivor fifty There is an alarming few number of survivor players who can look at a previous performance and say, well, I can't do that Well, I know what I did right last time and I know what I did wrong last time. And you think on paper again, Bostser Rw plays the same way every single time No way he's going to learn from his previous mistakes. But that's another reason why Redemption Island was such a masterclass Heroes versus villains. doesnn't look for an idol Do doesnn't even know what he is. Rather would do cooach Ch, rather would do the social thing. Redemption Island immedately goes out hunting for an idol and it's something that he keeps in his pocket the entire time All stars plays a game that yes is great in terms of the control that he has, but burns people along the way and you know makes too many promises that inevitably get broken. Redemption Island knows he doesn't want to promise the moon to everybody or comes up with a rationale to justify it to everyone else as to why he had to break those promises Yes, a four time player There if you give someone enough chances Could they learn from their mistakes? Maybe? doeses that mean they're automatically going to win Oh no Do you realize what it takes to win a season on Survivor? Yes, Boston Rob might have had so much tape to roll back and review the mistakes that he needs to rectify But It's one thing to know it. it's another thing to do it Yeah you brought up a lot of stuff and just to go back a little bit in terms of the relationships that he makes, that he is an extremely charismatic person and does do a really great job with building relationships that he will be the person to you that you need. Is it the the dad, the brother, the son? You know, he he, you know, he can figure out what you need and give you that relationship. You talked about him also in that he is the person that people would trust most with their life. I think that that's actually one of his best superpowers. He can make you feel safe Yeah He's somebody and I think that this was on great display in the Titers Remember the challenge that they did with Sierra where that they were putting the the bugs and the snakes on them and he got her to calm down, disassociate from what's happening and talk about something else. So that's something that's really one of his superpowers that he offers to people of that, hey, if you are with me, you will be safe. will I will keep you safe. I am strong. and if you're with me You don't have to worry and it works to great effect for the people who align with him. And I know that I'm not doing a great job right now of making the point against him, but I just want to be fair also when I'm talking about, you know, what he's able to do But as far as that he's able to learen from his mistakes. Yeah, I do think that he has had growth over the course of his survivor career. He comes in as I think he plays when he's first is he twenty five or twenty six twentyv four I think maybe Yeah Yeah. So yeah, he's twenty four in survivor Marcesis and Yeah, he has the growth and wisdom of a lifetime to be able to learn from. And yeah, that is commendable that he's able to do that, The difference is that there's growth among all these people that we're talking about over the course of the years. Look at the growth that Tony has between Survivor Kagillon and winners at War. So it's great, but I don't think it's necessarily unique that he's able to learn from his mistakes I mean, I think compared to those other people, perhaps, I think compared to many other people yes. I'm more so refing the argument that I think a lot of people tend to say of like Boss and Rob just plays the same way every single time. He's not able to learn to not do that. I think again, there are small shifts that he makes in the way that he plays that should be significant to talk about here because sometimes that's all it requires. I would say that he has gotten better at what he does. say that he still does not necessarily adapt to what the situation calls for. He's sort of like locked in. He's perfected the recipe for what he does to go into your analogy of Did you know how hard it is to make a cake? He's become a master Baker but he is not necessarily, even though he doesn' have a boss and Rob cookbook, would you call him necessarily to U You know, prepare Thanksgiving. I mean I could definitely see that. to a certain extent, because I do think that we could look to shows that exist out here. And look it is weird to say like let's bring in extra curriculars here. But especially when I talk about innovation, and what he was able to do on a show like the amazing race, where he is able to bring social strategy and manipulative tactics into the show for the very first time. He coerces people to quit a task because he doesn't want to do it. Even something like Daler or No Dal Island, where he had this retty high profile. Yes, much like Redemned Challenge, onlyn a few people knew of him. But still he was able to pull off some things with other leving living breathing individuals that have their own, you know, hippoc campus, right, their own decision making That is incredibly commendable. that showcases to me Rob Mariano has like a mastery of psychology. He talkks about this all the time. Hes talked about it with me a bunch. He has a degree in psychology. That's what attracted him to the show in the first place I think as much as we talk about how he's known for strong arming, I think it's wonderful manipulation. And I think is something that is inherent to what makes a great survivor player. And I think that Boston Rob is one of the most prominent examples of that where yes, you have other players with examples Tony convinced Woo to take him to the end. Parvey helped convince Eric and Siri helped convince Eric to give up the necklace But I think that the way Rob is able to do it is so incredibly smooth And again, coming from such an alpha Male personality that on paper, you think I'm not trusting this guy. likeike he's the head Hon show. He's clearly trying to manipulate me It somehow works Listen His background is in construction and he is, you know done incredible things over the course of his career in that field as well. to say that he is extremely multifaceted not just somebody who is a reality star B trade. He actually has a trade as well. But to the man with the hammer, the The entire landscape sometimes looks like a nail. and so I keep or west nail.s Mm Let's say more of West Nails and and he will strike the nails all along the way, even though he never played with any of the nails. has this this this tool set literally and figuratively that that he goes to The game of Survivor is nuanced. That's not always the best path to go. It can be an effective one and he is the best to do what he does. but There are There are many other effective strategies in survivor and I think when The one road that he knows how to go down ends up hitting a dead end That's it. and I would love the greatest player of all time to be able to pivot at times Well, on that note Do we feel like Boston Rob? given people the power to wield the hammer Again, I incorporate legacy a lot into my determinant of the greatest player of all time. and we certainly have spoken about how the play styles of people. Tony like Sandra have yielded so many similar tactics from so many players But I feel like you talk about that move that Boston Rob made se N not only do I think is it the most brutal move in the show's history of One of the coldest things done in the history of reality TV because again, It had never been done before. There was no expectation that this would have happened. It was very cold in that night in the rain when Lex is getting dumped on. Oh, metaphorically and literally. but You I do wonder then as well Yes, there were plenty of cold calculated players that came before him. and after him too, but the success he was able to wield there, especially in all stars, I do think it makes a massive crater in the show afterwards to showcase that level of manipulation is possible. I don't think Russell Hans feels he has the freedom to do what he can do without Bosser Rob. I don't think Tony feels like he has the freedom to do what he can do because of Boston Rob. Yes, it's a playstyle that is you know, not going to succeed every single season, but it's one that has maybe inspired the most amount of players out of all the ones that we're talking about over the course of this series because it's able to showcase the potential what you are able to do as a survivor player Yeah, he's very unique in what he's able to do because that there are other people who try to be the strong man, but they don't have the warmth that Rob has also where that Russell can certainly strong arm people from the other tribe Very few people felt like, okay, well Russell is keeping they were scared of Russell, but they never felt safe with Russell. And I think that what Rob is able to really combine is, hey, I am strong, I am a protector of you, that they better not cross me or there's going to be hell to pay But I'm also going to keep my people safe. And that's what ultimately keeps them loyal. And I think there is growth from where he starts in Survivor Marcasas where he says that fear is going to keep them loyal. It's better to be feared to be loved. But he grows as a player to where he is feared and he's also able to be loved by his people who are around him. So it's not necessarily that people are only staying with him because there is fear. They he and we see in Redemption Island that there are people who he is with that also they love him also. They want to they want to be around him. They look at him as their champion and the person who's keeping them safe. You see it in the traiters also where there's a lot of people that he can't be a traitor. like he's the greatest guy. We love being around him It's just that if if that ever if people see that the emperor has no clothes. if enough people are just no longer afraid The whole thing just could fall apart I can absolutely see that. And I think for me, the main argument I'm making with Boster Rob here is that I think could make him the goat. is less so about, okay, these are all the things he's done across all of these seasons. Even though again, it is still astounding to me. he has not been the first boot out of any of his drives in all of these seasons, especially as that target grows and grows and grows. It's something we talked about with Sandra last week as well that should be admired. But I think you know, when it comes to looking at the goen, how much impact and innovation can be incorporated into what that title means. Boston Rob is one of the most consumate examples that someone who made their debut in season four has contributed to so many of the show's most iconic moments is The most notable player. to come out of this show and has, you know, essentially made a career out of being on these shows, something that was kind of unheard of at the time. Certainly people were trying to make it happen Boston Rob actually was and also be able to kill it there as well speaks to this Very unique, y I think very like largely applicable. skill set that other people have been able to weaponize to great effect as well. I think The space he takes up in our collollective reality TV consciousness lifts that one win so large considering his entire body of work and more so what people have done with their work as a result of his body. of work to make him from an entire perspective of the unscripted genre. The greatest of all time. And His legacy is unimpeachable in terms of the impact that he had on the show. He is a legend of legends when it comes down to talking about the people that have shaped survivor over the course of the years, but that itself does not make you the greatest player in the show's history. There's a reason why it takes four times out for him to really hone his craft and be able to perfect this game that he started on Survivor Marasus and it just his impact is is so strong. I don't ever want to take anything away from This thing of ours that he has helped build to this point by He' but a lot. He's a construction worker. his style of play is just one that suits him and is perfect for him but is just one that is So All or nothing. It is going to Be effective in these perfect situations So many times on Survivor, you will find yourself in imperfect situations where so many things can go wrong And while he is extxtremely resourceful. I think that I would choose another champion if I was going to be trying to pick out a person who is going to win survivor more often than not in the ultimate survivor simulation. And that's why I can't say that Boston Rob is the greatest of all time The only thing I have to say, Rob, in rebuttal. is two words Smotin up. Iro dropped the puppet. I was going, Sister Nino, you blew it. All right. But yeah, fun conversation about Rob for sure. Yeah, this is a little bit of a heavy lift. So hopefully I was able to make some points. But yeah, this this is a tougher one. but also I will say I gain more appreciation for Rob upon really taking a microscope to his game because I think again, a lot of the convental wisdom nowadays, especially is maybe more general the general takes on his gameplay. but there's a lot of you know intricacies that were involved in all the things he's been able to do. It's so fun to talk about these great. I look at them almost kind of like pathology of okay their superpowers, these are their weaknesses, this is all the lore. And it was something that when in writing the book, that was how like the Heroes and Villains Hall of Fame was really conceived to sort of like could we talk about these people like as Greek gods in terms of how you would like talk about all of their legendary stories And Rob is certainly the Zeus in that analogy And I will say speaking of the thunder he was able to bring or the lightning perhaps. I did mention challenges. againg, I know may it may vary in terms of criteria for a lot of people I think he is the best challenge performer out of this entire group of five. He win yes, hes he's competed on five seasons, but he won nine immunity challenges in three seasons. He won four, four and w. Yes, he is, you know, an athletic guy, but he's actually a low key puzzle master people may not necessarily remember. He is maybe one of the Parvety obviously is someone who's very well equipped for like individual endurance challenges, but if you're looking for one of those like overall obstacle course into a puzzle type of challenges, Rob might be the best performer out of these five. Yeah I think Parvety is the best at that she can has the superpower to kind of like disassociate during these endurance challenges and she's able to really just is the best to ever do it at that. Rob also's probably lost on the individual immunity challenge record that He is extremely effective in the team challenges where as both as a captain, he wants it more than anybody else. He is also dominant on the puzzle section of those individual immunity challenges. and so He knows who should be doing what. So just as the quarterback of a team, that's probably the thing that got lost in this conversation of that and I think that's one of the reasons why he has so much agency in the pre merge is because he's just such a quarterback in these challenges that it just comes with so much respect And I mean, it also should be mentioned here. I know if I've sort of dropped K fab I'll go back to a couple of points that I didn't address here is like the moves that he's been able to pull off. again, we talk about his general play style, but things like seending Matt right out the revolving door again. Yes, a very cold blooded thing, but had So many so much great reasoning behind it. And again, the major thing was that he was able to get everyone, including Andrea who he left in the dark the last time he voted out Matt was able to get her on board by basically being like, do you see this loose cannon? This is someone he able to get rid of. againgain, this is someone who's incredibly we talk about this tony, very opportunistic If he sees something he' going to take advantage of it We talk about one of the rare times that Boston Rob was on the ropes in all stars at the final five where he catches Jenna and Ruper talking about how, you know, they're gunning for him and Amber