Cirie's Legacy and Reality TV

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Listeners of this show will get a seventy five dollars sponsored job credit at indndeed dot com slash podcast. That's indndeed dot com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply Need a hiring hero? This is a job for indeed sponsored jobs Sumers serve up the cookout cllassics, Heinz Ketchup and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly melty cheese and thick rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft Hey everybody. What's going on? Rob Sestrino and we're back and we're talking about the fifth and final discussion here in our series that we've been doing this month. Who is the go? And today, we're talking about somebody who I think, in my mind has not traditionally been part of this conversation since we have had the more recently canonized sururvivor Mount Rushmore, a fifth Inclusion in this discussion. Serereeields coming off of Survivor fififty. I've been looking forward to this conversation throughout the whole series and back with us to talk about it. give it up for our goat Mike B. M. Yes, Rob, thrilled to be here trying to prove that I may not always be able to beat them with this, but I can always beat them Yes. And for the people listening to the puigas, their mind is racing. What did he point to? Okay? want to leave it enigmatic. let's have people fill in the blanks. Yeah. Okay, so today we're talking about Sereree. We have done a episode talking about Tony, Sandra Rob and Parvety over these last four weeks, But today we round out our discussion with Serei. We'll give you a link at the end of the episode where you can vote for who you think is the goat maybe persuaded by some of these conversations, but probably already locked in from the start. But we're much like a lot of jury votes, Rob. You could say what you want to a tribal councsel not much might be up in the air. We're gonna do the podcast anyway. And I think that this is a really fun discussion to have today because you have Serei who is not a survivor winner, but can we talk about if she is surv Gat At the end of the last podcast, we flipped a coin the whole way through. and for the fourth time in five weeks, Mike Bloom was tasked with making the case why Siri is the goat. But after a week of arm twisting and begging and pleading with Mike Bloom. He is graciously aggreed So let me make the case for why Serei is the greatest player of all time. So this whole series isn't just Mike Bloom making the case over and over again. whyy this person is the greatest person to me saying no Yeah, let's you know, pull back the curtain a little bit here, Rob. I did try to play your coin that you so graciously lent to me against you to argue on Serei's behalf, but then you had me read the text back on the back of the coin which show that it was non transferable. And so unfortunately I was unable to do so. So you were arguing proory. and also from a more realistic perspective, look, you have had to the Lord, I mean, Jeff's work sometimes, especially when it comes to some of these people like Poverty, Tony, Boston, Rob and making arguments that I know you yourself don't agree with for the sake of this exercise. So I figured it should be my turn a little bit. Suri is my favorite survivor player of all time. I think it makes sense that we try to even things up a little bit more and provide you an opportunity to truly bring us up and talk about somebody who yeah, as you mentioned When when there are people have made their sort of metaphoric Mount Rushmore, Si has been thrown in there sometimes even though she is not a winner. But I think, you know one of the whole reasons for this entire exercise was canonized by one Aubrey Brockco in the penaltimate episode of Survivor fififty, Cereree's most recent and probably final appearance in Survivor Proper when she called her the greatest player of all time. Even better than some of the people we talked about in this series in Sandra And Tony. So Rob, you are here to really cate fairness play with Tony in Game Changer. so maybe she doesn't have the full sample. So if you ask Cereice, she doesn't remember that though Yeah. Okaykay. So I'm talking about for Aubrey. Aubrey was there on the with the game changers Tony, so maybe she doesn't have the best sample size. All right. But anyway, I'm so excited to talk about Seree because I think that there is an interesting case to be made why Siri is the greatest player of all time because I think that Almost every single person would say, okay, well the person who wins the season deserves to win. but think almost every sururvivor fan would say there are times when the best player of the season was not the winner I would agree with that. I think that When it comes to the overall body of work I think that there are certainly players who have more bullet points in their column, whether they be impressive moves they made, relationships they made, but for one reason or several, they are not able to make their way to the end and speak to those points. You know, I think oftentimes the person who wins deserves to win out of the group that is there in the end, but I think Dpending on who you ask, it may not be necessarily indicative of, okay, this means that B by default, they are the best player of the season. Everything they did prove that their gameplay was supreme over others. So if there are Certainly players who were the best players in their season who weren't the winners of their season Isn't it also plausible that the best survivor player could be somebody who just happens to not have won? You mention happens, though and we could certainly get it to the number of circumstances paper, I could agree about this to a certain extent on a seasonal aspect. You know, we talked about pooverty last week and I think that Sandra deserved the win that she did in hereroes versus Villains, But that is certainly an argument as well of like, Okaykay, Sandra is the winner. was Poverty the best player that season. And I think certainly there are a number of seasons. something to Sereia's credit that we can say Yes, she is she was the best player that season in terms of day one to Day twenty four, day thirty eight, whatever time she unfortunately is taken out right before the jury But I don't know, Rob. I'm just a simple man with a loud voice and a floral shirt on And I believe personally, I'm a mean potatoes guy that I think the greatest player of all time from someone who has played sururvivor six times, you know, more than a fifth of sururvivors' overall run if for counting Australia should be somebody who Maybe one. I would say base level made it to a final tribal council. I would I would love the greatest player of all time to be somebody whose jury experience is not being surrounded by seven, eight or nine other people voting alongside them for the winner of the season. Which she has voted for correctly in every single time that she has cast a jury vote, but I digress I mean, does that speak more so towards the fact that people are able to utilize Cerei' talents and be able to push past her and succeed draft off of that that goodwill. I think it speaks more to the fact than way way more often than not, and I don't have the exact percentages Sereree is a survivor player who gets what she wants. And I think that that is one of the most important metrics that we should look at that there are lots of different ways to try to assert your influence on the vote No matter how you slice it, that Sereree has been exceedingly effective about how she goes about making her vote happen. And she does it with a very subtle influence that I don't think that anybody else in the history of the game has been able to been able to do it in quite the same way I really, I think back to our conversation about Sandra and the things that I talked about with Sandra about how she doesn't get voted out and she's able to adapt to whatever goes on. I think that Serei has that to some degree, but she has an agency to which that Sandra, I think late stage Sandra ultimately evolved to become more like A Sree? She doesn't have the softer edges that Serei has. and so it's like kind of a weirder combination of that she has taken the original Sandra game and then evolved it to assert more agency. But Serei has always been Smooth as butter and has always been warm and bringing people in, but she uses that social game as currency to be able to get what she wants to have happen time and time. Again, you heard it from Jeff Probst himself on the stage at the Survivor fififty reunion about how producers who have been there filming season after season, they would go back on the walkie like I don't know how she's doing this. but She's doing it again. We don't even understand what's happening. These are the people that make Survivor. It's not even the edit in the real time are mesmerized with what she's able to do as a player. And so we're not here to crown the greatest winner of all time. But in terms of the person who time in and time out tribal council after tribal council, I believe forty three times I believe has gone to tribal counsel and voted and voted out the person that she wanted to go home Please tell me my facts are right on this. It is a number higher than anybody else and is an incredible feat. I think that speaks to the incredible effectiveness of her game I mean, I definitely agree with you in terms of the skill set that she is able to utilize. I am in no way challenging deep Riz would be an understatement of what Siri has been able to utilize from the very beginning. of her survivor career. The fact that obviously, you know, the sliding doors moment where Timbertina is a little less antis social and Serei gets voted out instead of her. frrankly, I wouldn't want to live in that world because Si being kept through that first Tbal council opens up the door for survivor history to be made in so many ways. I think Butter is honestly a very good metaphor for Sereree because if you take a look at like A lot of different dishes in cooking, a lot of contionice. Exactly. Rice. D't talk to Serei about the rice. Butter is always like a very key ingredient, right? It's a binder. It feels like something that needs to be involved in everything. And I do think indeed, there are very few times in Serei's survivor career where she has been truly blindsided, that she has been there have been times where maybe she has disagreed with the person who has been voted out But it's not like she comes back to camping like, I am stunned. I did not necessarily think that was happening. And that speaks to the fact that she has these immmaculate social skills. I think the Sandra comparison is apt in that Sereree is probably the best social player we have ever seen and just the way she's able to make people feel so good about her Even though for all intents and purposes, They should not still they are able to to bring her into the plans and at the end of the day usually have her be able to get the name over the line that she wants to. And so the butter It's fantastic to have in there. Some of the best dishes across sururvivor history. Sereia has been an essential partark. Just like butter has been in any ingredient list Butter everyvery single time Sereree gets to the end of a season. inevitably melts. And look, there are very different heat sources that we've seen across twenty years of survivor. That from her own fire sadly. Exactly. that it's caused that butter to melt As much as we talk about the Murphy's law that has been Ciri's on Island career so far, Rob. Isn't there a certain point where we have to look at things and say Is this a coincidence? You know, maybe the survivor gods have rolled a bunch of snake eyes or rat eyes Serei's way for the better part of six seasons. But if we go into each one of these, How many times can we point out, okay, were these ways that Serei yes lost out due to some circumstances out of her control? also may have boxed herself into a corner where the worst case scenario happened every single time Well, do you want to point to an example where she boxed herself into a corner and then I can defend that because I feel like when we go back through everything and maybe I could say Australian survivor versus the world might have been that scenario, but I think in her US survivor appearances, I really feel like that she was the victim of circumstance, more so than she was the victim of her own bad planning. Well, let's go to our very first season here, which look was incredibly impressive Th to one Absolutely sensational, helped you know, change the meteda strategy, get the go. We love it. But she is sitting in a final four where it is her Otis, Terry and Danielle Danielle has for all intents and purposes, flipped over to Terry because she knows how tight of a pair Aris and Serei were Yes, Terry is the, you know, number one odds on target but he has the super idal RS would be the next highest target, certainly the one that Terry wants to get out But Ars is also the second best challenge performer out of this entire group. He's no captain of sports And so, yes The first of many tracked circumstances that S will go out is due to this fire making, not the for the last time that this will happen But also have to wonder like A you know, being in this scenario where There's a good chance that Aris wins and then her name is on the chopping block. Is that a situation that you ideally want to go to the end with? The other thing is, let's say that she wins this fire making against Danielle, right? Let's say she is able to prevail If we look at how the final immunity challenge works out, Terry actually lasted longer than Arist is and maybe Serei wins this final immunity challenge. But if Terry wins that challenge He wins the game I think even if he goes to the final two with Siri Terry just has this narrative. He has the Laminia people on the jury. He would have won six immunity challenges point I think that in maybe a couple cases where we talk about like if Sereia just made it one day further and made it to the end, she would have locked up the juryiess votes This was not necessarily an end game that favored her in her first season. Yeah, I don't know what she was supposed to do differently in terms of how Panama ends up working out. It is going to be tough for her to be able to get to the final two with any of those people. We're going to see Svivor change it to a final three. I think that people have said they want a terry type to get to the end, but I think it also could be that for it improves Cereree's chances to ultimately get to the final three, lookook at her power in terms of being a person who's changing the game, although we'll talk about that more when we get to fans versus favorites I think she does the best she can with the circumstances that there. Don't forget that Terry also has the super idol, which is an issue that Terry would not have even been at that point in the game if he didn't have the Tyler Perry super idol at that point. So for Si I don't know I don't know how she could get to the final two It's summer, it's hot out. You want clothes that feel cool and comfortable. You don't want to feel like you've gotten a punishment from Big Brother in the Vveito competition. 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J supplements designed to meet you wherever you're at. Ollie, chse science over Shan Find support at a retailer near you or on Ollie. com That's ollY d. com All right, well let's go to Survivor Game Changers then. and this is G going be a weird one, right? Because this is The flukiest way anyone has gone out of the game in sururvivor history. This is advantage Get in immunity train, whatever you want to use from it. and I am By no means Defending this. I am staunchly annti advantage get in, but damnit, this is the role that I've chosen for myself and I'm going to play it with alom here because of course As we know horrifically Seree ends up going home because she is the only person without immunity, without a trinket. Obviously if these things existed differently or did not exist, maybe things go. different way, but I actually think that the more I was kind of studying Serei' seasons Game changers might actually be her weakest game thing because I look at Again, she was able to wield some power sure. She has a really nice move flipping Sarah Lacina at the final eleven to go after Debbie and helping break up this sort of new majority alliance I would say that there are a couple of moves that she makes that are maybe a little unnecessary in the post merge. She has people like Zeke. Andrea who are very firmly in her corner. who she chooses to cut bait on. The Andrera decision in particular is really interesting because that's one of the few times Brad Culpepper is vulnerable in that post merge where he loses immunity. And I believe they had just sent Sierra, Dawn Thomas Englum to the jury as well, which would have been a vote and was a vote I think in Brad's corner. And so you think this is a prime opportunity A la Azzie, perhaps, not in game changers in Micronesia. take a shot at him. inststead, she follows along with the flow takes out Andre here and the very next thing she does, which is audacious. and we love it and's why she's a game changer She gets this vote steal from Sarah, which is incredibly admirable, shows again, how the relationship she had brokered with Sarah paid off in the long run that Sarah says to trust you Here is my advantage And she makes this big gambit and it's one of the few times it blows up in her face pisses Sarah off because she was trying to use her own advantage against her. It pisses Ty off. Yeah because remember Ty, she had basically said like, you're in danger. Don't worry. We're going to try to get the votes away from you only for Sarah to still steal Ty's vote at the end of the day also results in Cerei's right hand woman, Michaela getting voted out. It was one of the most confusing votes in survivor history. I still don't know if we remember the exact circumstances, but I think what we sort of take away as a connotation is that sort of in retribution for Siri trying to pull this stunt Sarah helps her of lead this ad hoc charge to take out Michaela. And listen, again, I don't think her nor anyone could have foreseen what was going to happen the next day. But is a remote possibility that Tie to idle Tie going on right now says I can protect myself Who could I use this other idol on What's to say that if he does not feel as burned by Sereree in that moment that he doesn't play the idol on her? There's a lot there and we're not even at Advantage Get in. We're at the vote prior to Advantage Get in. And we have a bit of a technicality here where that Sarah gives the advantage to Sereree to hold and then she goes to use it and then gets called out of it says this is nont transansferable, which is a stupid rule Okay can we be real about that that there was a stupid rule, a stupid technicality. They caught her on the fine print on that one. But if it if it worked and it should have worked. It was like a little bit of like a stupid thing in the fine print, which is not good game design when you know you have to go back to actually there's a rule if you ra read on the top of the box And so we were robbed that night of it being like an all time great move. You say that okay, well Sarah Losino, she stole Sierra Don Thomas' legacy advantage, but for Sereree to and then she went to did she try to vote out Tie Wh who was going to be the ultimate She wanted to use, I think initially used Sarah's vote steal to vote out Sarah where she, I think she had like her tie Aubrean and Michaela, I think she believed on her side to take out Sarah. Okay. Well then now she goes on after that vote and she's probably going to win the season. So I think it was a worthwhile gambit. She was foiled by a technicality And then we go into the next round where then she pulled off a three to one vote split On I believe on on Sarah, right And she's going to take out officer Sarah. She's identified her as the person who is likely to win and we all know how advantage Geden works out I mean, she's doing incredible amazing things and she's getting beat by a bunch of rules, Mike I mean, listen, all the best people have gotten beaten by a bunch of rules and it's really tragic circumstances. abbsolutely. But you do have to wonder you know The we look back to the brief giving of the vote steal in a non transansferable way. And that speaks to again, the social cache that she has. We even look at Survivor fififty where Ozzie is able to do the same thing to flat out give. an extra vote to Sree because he felt so good about her But could there have been a world where the cache extended so far at the final six where it could have protected her as well. You know, where again Ty could have used an idol on her he wanted to. I also wonder in this world if, you know, advantage get in doesn't happen and she survives until the final five. I'm not sure who would go out there like Ty doesn't play one of his idols. I guess Aubrey goes out Is she really set for the final three The issue was at that final six that Sarah and Troyan and Brad were so locked in with one another. If all three of them survive, I don't see a world where she makes it to fourth place even. So if Sarah goes out at six, then You think that's Everybody just agrees to vote out Sree there it could be the thing. So it's I don't know if Ty and Aubrey are going to be. they do vote with Serei here but I don't know T might. I don't do you think Arey would have gone to the end with Serei. She certainly didnt know in, but you know, they have a connection They have a connection, but I think everyone including Siri is fully aware that she will clean up in the end. And I think that is unfortunately one of the very few flaws in Sia's game across the board is that I think a lot of the players we have spoken about Have this this clutch gene in their survivor DNA. Tony Last last vote of winners at war wins fire making. Boston Rob, last vote of Redemption Island wins immunity, poverty, last vote in Australia versus the world wins immunity. They have those abilities to say Even if I feel comfortable about my game, I have an opportunity through challenges or through an idol, depending on the mechanisms, to be able to guarantee my safety firsthand without necessarily needing to rely on other people Sere unfortunately does not have that. The closest we got to it obviously is what happened in Micronesia. But I feel like every other season and this is what really shot her in the foot in Survivor fifty was she named what like twow or three people. in that final eight, even who would have taken Sereree to the end. That's a lot less than the number of people who were in the game time And so I do think that something that does work against Serei time and time again is despite the myriad ways that she has gone out She she doesn't have the ability to be able to back herself when inevitably people are like We can't go to the end with her You brought up a couple of interesting things I'll start with the clutch Jean and this is not her forte. is not this is not her game. So in the same way, I can't chastise Sandra for not being a competition beast. That's just not who she is. And while I said it was a point in Sandra's favor, that she's a little bit rough around the edges and that people feel like, o Sandra L she doesn't have that good of a social game. I do think that it does work against Serei that she's so good that people recognize that they don't necessarily want to go to the end with her Nevertheless, she has found people that would take her to the end that would go to the end with her. and there have been circumstances that have conspired against her. And I'm glad you brought up Survivor fifty where you said that there was only a couple of people who would have gone to the end with her, but she found them, Mike. She had it all set up. She was there And she was with Ozzie, the one person who was just crazy enough to want to go to the end with Sereree and because of very Bad decision making on Ozz's part seems one part of Cereree's legacy as well, mostostly in her favor, but in this case, not so much. Yeah, that they happened to be separated, but he had the means to save himself It's a completely different end game. if Ozzie doesn't get voted out there at the final seven and nevertheless he chooses not to play his immunity idol and then ultimately sets up the circumstances where after Rick Devans goes, then Serei is going to be taken out of the game. in the world where Ozzie plays his idol I think Sioes on to win season fifty of Survivor. That's interesting because that's only at the final eight or Vis got put it out at nine. So you think that the Dominoes were set up So because yes she she found her people. you know, she said Ozzie, She said Tiffany to a certain extent, but to quote the aforementioned Brad Culiper three does not go into eight. Well, let's talk it through because that's the final seven and that that vote if Ozzie does not go home Aubrey does Aubrey, the winner of the season is now off the game board. And so you have this alliance that Si has with S with Serei Ozzie, Rizzo, and Tiffany And they have four. the final seven. And so I think that Rick Devans still goes they have four going into now the final seven, right?? And so Rick Devans ends up going home next, probably still And then all that's left is Joe. And Jonathan I don't see a scenario where once Rick Devans is gone. are you know, even if they pull Rizzo away Who else is voting with Rizzo, Joe, and Jonathan to take out Sree, Ozzie or Tiffany. I mean, it could be something Yes, Rob that gets her to The final four that maybe she's able to win out on votes there. But again, I go back to that scenario and let's say is those four? I don't know, like maybe Ozzie wins that final challenge, but is he breaking Siri? If a Joe or Jonathan is able to squeeasel their way into the final four and win immunity, they're throwing Siri into fire of which we've seen multiple times. She's not necessarily great at. Maybe she would beat Rizzo And who knows maybe without Ozzie in the game at that point because remember, Rizzo turned on Ozzie. He voted Ozzie out. There's a good chance at that point that maybe Rzo feels like even with Ozzie in the game He's made his bed. now he's going to lie on it and decides to flip on them right there right then. Well, I feel like that either Joe or Jonathan probably Jonathan then goes out at the final six and so maybe it's Joe and Rizzo at the final five Could they potentially get Tiffany to go with them to vote out Ozzie at the final five? I guess it's possible. But I feel like and we don't know for sure Odds are I think exceedingly high that Sereree has a path to get to the final three if she can get through that one round where Ozzy doesn't play his idol I think it's a path, but I think many people have had many paths. and I think it is far from the clearest path that she has had in any of her seasons. And again, she did stupendous work in fifty. I think many people myself included during the season said this might have been her most impressive game, notot only because of what she was able to pull off in that early post merge, but because specially at this point where she has played what like one hundred and fifteen days when she has played a record six times that you have Jetna Lewis calling her out at the very first Tbal council, people looking at Jetna like she's crazy of like, we could keep Sree in the game I also do have to wonder and again, this is not to demean Serei's exceptional social strategy skills whatsoever is one reason maybe why she keeps getting taken to some of these later games, not later days is because people realize She's not likely to win a challenge She's not likely to win fire making. So we just know if we get to a final four round She's kind of easy pickkings right there right then I think it's possible. I don't really know where that's happening. Do you think that that was happening in season fifty I could say it to a certain extent. I mean, that's the thing, right? is that I think People like Jonathan you know, Joe wanted to work with Serei to a certain extent. but I can imagine that If I were one of them, I'd have an idea in the back of my head, right of like, Listen, I'm finem working with Sereree right now, but because I know at the final four, you know, unless the person who wins immunity is shortsighted enough to take Serereefields to the end, she's pretty much served up on a silver platter as that final juror once more. I do think that there is the thought that people get a little more fixated on the immunity threats. I think it's possible, but I don't know if people are necessarily leaving her in the game on purpose because they're not as worried about her. And then they reach a point where it's like, okay, well we can't take her any further We don't see a lot of evidence that that's happening. It certainly could be a factor. I would say one thing that I would give you is that in the pre merge, I think in season fifty, I think that one of the things that helped her was that I think that the players are very aware at how beloved Suri is and I think that there was almost like a I'm trying to think of what the right word is of that nobody wanted to be a person that took Serei out of season fifty. I don't think that people were necessarily big game hunting. I think that other than Jenna Lewis, I think that and I don't think that Jenna Lewis was specifically big game hunting. I think that she was willing to do it. But I think that Jenna Lewis is kind of offline in a way where she wasn't worried about, okay, that the the mob of fans will come for me if I take out Siri. And I think that that also worked in her favor in season fifty Yeah, I mean, there is when Rizzo, I think talked to both of us about this about why he wanted to kind of work with Siri in the first place. he does point out this trend that you alluded to earlier of Serei's notable success rate when it comes to her close allies. Obviously we had Aris in Exile Island pooverty in both Micronesia and Australia versus the world. Sarah Lina in Game Changers. Again, people might not necessarily remember that relationship, but it was so tight that Sarah gave her this vote steel So it it does almost seem like Sree again is an incredibly skilled player in her own riot, but you could see people want to utilize her. you know, be able to be like, okay, even outside of that meta reasoning like you're talking about of like, I don't want to become, you know, the ire of Survivor Twitter for being the one to take out Serei U beforefore everyone eventually agrees to like shoulder the blame together and do so I also do think there is some value in her as just like a tool to use in the game of like Well listen, I know Sereree, if I want to have something happen, I can utilize Serei to help get that across because she's able to have those relationships. And again, if a scenario happens to pop up where she's left unimmune in a scenario like we saw with the time she was voted down in fifty where Tiffany was the person who was going to go, but she has the clutch gene, pulls off a victory and then Serei goes Great. I'll just sort of like you know,, vote her out, thank her for all the fish and then be able to move on and claim the victory myself. Yeah I think it's hard to parse if that if that is the thing, but I don't believe that peopleople are saying that they are working maybe Rizzone could be the exception of I am only working with her because I know she gets close to the end and then I'll I'll You don'inkt k the win at the end Y Dinkl is that the new Gen Z term? I've heard my son say that. I believe Are serious? Yes Twinkle. I don't wantan to turn it into this. Yeah, of course. So talking about Serei who was on the older womomen's tribe in her first season. This is the perfect time to bring up this Gen Z talk. Perfect. We haven't talked about micronesia in terms of how that ultimately played out where we had Si goes to the final three with Amanda and Pverty and they're ready to go be the final three. And so for the first time it's Sere's first season, we say actually, it's going to be a final two And look, this was something that again was out of Siri's control. I don't think production has corroborated this, but I think the popular theory right is that because of the number of alarming metavacs and quits, most recently James you know, leaving due to his finger, something that Siri pointed out in the moment, Irironically enough, Rob, all the medical situations could have screwed the nurse out of a million dollars And so it's an unfortunate situation. I think it's unclear whether or not Si would have won in a final three vote. We've been talking about this a few times with for the Parvety episode and It's it's fair to debate it, but I do think that You would have loved to have seen it, right I mean, absolutely and what Sereib was able to pull off was great, but I don't think that I think that does a bit of a disservice to the relationships that both Poverty and Amanda were able to make as well. Listen, I know Eliza certainly had some fiery words to them in the moment about how antisocial the two of them were. something that has continued in time in Memorium. But I do think that, you know Natalie and Alexis had a really tight bond with Poverty. Obviously Amanda had a really tight bond with Ozzie as well as James from a previous season. So that's what makes this so up in the air, right? Unlike maybe a couple of other Sre seasons that we can speculate about. loosely. The irony is, Rob, the best shot she had of getting to the final day is maybe the murkiest in terms of how she would actually do. mayaybe versus Australia versus the world because I think that's a scenario where like I think she would have gotten some support from definitely Lisa and maybe like Tommy and Cass, but I do think that Parvety like I think that win I won't even try to make the case that I think Si would have won the jury in That always seemed like that Parvety had the mist over these other players more so Particularly with the Australian players that Sereree did not really possess. And also the narrative as well, right? Parvey we talked about this last time, The fact that she's able to say every single tribal council I went to someone was calling me out about how I needed to go and I never got a vote against me. Pvey is able to actually also utilize like I weaponizeed immunity idols. I weaponizeed an advantage that I had which Again, like Sereree good on her for being able to be given these things given the very tight relationships that she's made. But this' another sort of like clutch gene that she's not able to have, right? is like her ability to find these trinkets. Lord knows it would have protected her, unfortunately a game changers. Yeah. But largely she has not used or have has had to use idols and advantages throughout most of her game. And she, I believe had not possessed an idol or an advantage in any season prior to season fifty when she gets the extra vote from Azzie And she's able to use it to save herself to her credit. And I believe that she is the first person to ever have used the extra vote in a way to save themselves. Yeah, I mean, certainly save themselves. you know, there's debate as to Ricard and Chan using it on the Ner vote to guarantee that he went home or, you know, Marianne using it to cement the Oer vote, but certainly from a defensive position, though maybe I had I thought I remembered Sereree saying that she had told other people that she had an extra vote. So maybe it wasn't like she was so in danger that she had to play. I think was more so like, okay, this This secures the fact that we can do this two two, two split vote without needing to worry about anything. And just another Interesting nugget about that particular vote. I recently talked to Rizzo about his game in season fifty and he actually brought that vote up as one of the reasons why he didn't want to vote for Jonathan when it came time to I look at Rizzo as the most independent voter that was on the jury. And I was curious about his decision to vote for Aubrey or vote for Jonathan And he felt like that it was a flaw in Jonathan's game that at the first part the opening side of the power broker triribal council night He votes with Sereree to vote out Emily And here's Sereree Wh's vulnerable? Rick and Emily probably would want to vote Si out He could have voted with them to take out Siri. inststead he does Ciri's bidding I mean, the the optics of that do not look good. It looks rather y doinky if you will, But I do think that It showcases the power that Serei was able to utilize in that moment. It really's it's really the opposite ends of the coin, the mister Beast coin for Serei, right? Because on one side of the beach, she is able to utilize this advantage and the relationships around her to escape a boat that honestly she should not have where it was this small tribe was protected with an idol. you know, Jonathan has this immunity. She should be dead to rights, but Jonathan and Tiffany are on her side. But on the other side of the beach, the person who is the most vital to her game in Ozzie, I think the singular, you know path forward that she would have to take to get to that final three and whenin that two million dollars ends up going out And so, you know, it's a great display of what she is able to utilize, but unfortunately that ends up getting taken away from her almost immediately. If we knew more about our sleep, What would we do differently Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep with Sleep score Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions, and sleep duration And then, every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score, from one to one hundred So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to very high. 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Mike, I bet you wouldn't think that I would w to bring up heroes versus villains Okay, interestnting because Serei did last a grand total of four episodes on your It happens. It happens to the greats, M. Exactly. And so for Si I don't know if people make this case enough She was so screwed by being on the heroes tribe. She was she should have been on the villains tribe. She's on the tribe with people who are really preaching the honor and integrity and the loyalty. She is able to work with those people in season fifty, but she is, I think clearly seen as the least trustful Remember of this hero's tribe Interesting I don't necessarily agree. And if she was on the villain's tribe, then perhaps she has a little more rope to work with First off, I think Pverty would have loved that because I think If we're trying to make comparisons here, Pverty was much more screwed being a villain than Serei was as a hero because yes, maybe there was set a moral complicity complicity that that made People feel like this is what a hero is supposed to do the matter is, S is on a tribe with two people she had played with before. One of whom, despite her claim being like, I don't know why people think me and Amanda are close, Amanda voted me out at the final three Seriously and like what are you trying to do here? You're you're being about as good of a liar here as Amanda was at the heroes versus villains m ling. I think she would have had a better chance on there. And I think it's really a A lot has to go wrong to ultimately take her out. It is not a normal vote by any stretch of the imagination I personally think that Candice was being looked at as maybe the sketchiest out of the heroes. I know that one of the reasons why she goes out is that Tom Westman in particular is really the one that's beating this drum of like Sere is a very dangerous player She needs to be taken out here, you know And so when him and Colby and JT tonight they made their move and Sereree ends up going out here. I think that it's a credit to Tom. muchuch like, yes, I'll be it without an Iidol play, but kind of what Sereree does to Yao Man in Micronesia where it's like this person is I can see them as a personal threat. You might think that other people are more so the immediate you know targets. but I can see the future as to this person getting to the end again. And so we have to take advantage of this right here right now. So obviously, yes, Sereree gets idled out here. She did not get the majority of votes But the fact of the matter is she got enough votes. And I do think that perhaps in this case actually herer not being able to to obscure her threat level in a way that she has so masterfully done in other seasons is the reason why she's the choice here instead of Rupert or Candace or Amanda or James The body of work is just so incredible in that. The body is tea? The body of work is tea And she has played in six different seasons of Survivor, counting Australian Survivor versus the world and she makes it to Sixth place or better Five times It is incredibly consistent. And I cannot deny that, you know, a factor that I've certainly talked about in these conversations I like to pride a go title upon is consistency And I would argue maybe besides like Parvty, Sree is the most consistent survivor player of all time in terms of being able to to sixth place at the very worst every single time except for one especially considering that again, when we talk about the challenge weaknesses, we look at a couple of these seasons, much like Sandra like Game changers and maybe this is the Maritin Serea's column If she goes to tribal councils in any one of those preerge challenges, she's gone L Luck's a big part of the game. you know, it's nice that she gets lucky for in something I maybe that's Carmac Balance they got so lucky in the first half of Game changer they're like, okay, a few for us and a few for you in a light certainly on the original tribe that she was on, but is that is that true? Post? I know she doesn't go to a tribal council. Do you think that post swap? She's also going to be the person who's the likely boot All right, so the people Post swap were it was her on the Tabua tribe. It was herzan and Sarah and So now with Sarah. So it's her Auszie Zeke Andrea Trozan and I think I'm forgetting She's good there. One more person. I mean, yes, but Troizan has an idol Mm And we could see another scenario here where if everyone voted for Troyzan and Troizan plays the idol, who's someone that he might want to gun for having single handed power over who goes there. who's someone who did incredibly well in puzzles and was a large reason why she was able to stay safe in the pre merge, but also might be somebody that if you're feeling like If they were out of the game, I don't think our challenges would hit a huge deerit, especially when you still have someone like Zeke in the game. It was I wasm trying to think of whose It was Ozzie and it was Oh, Sarah was part of that group. You're right. Yeah So I'd love to go back to the season fifty finale that we just saw where Mike We were there We saw Serei received a beautiful trophy Award. Glamorous. Glamorous award She was the first ever recipient of the Spirit of Survivor Award Yes, proving all the fruits of her labias. I mean, labor were manifested in this beautiful sculpture that she got to held alof Yeah. But I do think that And I know we're talking about the greatest player of all time Be. arc of Sereree has been one that has resonated with the fans in a way that no other player, I think has been able to have that type of trajectory of. Her story was one that she started as of course, she famously got up off of the couch and she was afraid of leaves and can I a hold up, bro. Let me speak to that for a second because I did some rewatching those things, some rel litigating And I actually think that Sereree being afraid of leaves is a Mandela effect H Be I watched that first episode of Eile Island again. and I believe what Sereree says is that she's not afraid of leeaves She hates. leaves. She's afraid of the things that exist underneath the leaves that she's afraid when she lifts up the leaves that things are to come out. But the leaves themselves And when I actually brought this up to seate an interv like, Oh, yeah, you're afraid of lefes like I am not fraid of leaves. I think that's the thing that she would You know, address reg me for misspeaking. No, I mean, you and a lot of sururvivor fans and I'm one as well. Again, I misspoke this to Sereia's face, but I just wanted to this is my pro seory argument to clear the air is not afraid of I leave, not afraid of them, but she doesn't like them Yes, exactly. But I think that you bring up a really good point in Hussi presents and not to say that Svivor has always been this growth narrative forward show. I think that certainly has been the focus a lot in recent seasons, whether it's from a returning perspective or even just from like a look what you learned about yourself. being out here, but I think that Sree is the consummate example of what that entails about somebody who never camped day in her life and came out and became one of the biggest trailbazer bllazers that the game has ever seen. She changed the entire show in a few different ways that she ends up being and I know I just argued for her to be on the Villains Tribe in Hoes versus Villains, But that in season twelve, we also have the first ever, I'm not sure if it was Sprint or I think it was a car fan favorite award. It was. Yeah, both her and Ozzie got cars. Yes, yes. And so that they had the fan favorite award and you probably would not have envisioned a player like a Sree being the winner of such an award when you have Terry who's out there winning challenges. And I think that she really did change the idea of what a fan favorite hero is. I' talk about it in the tribe and I have spoken, but that's a big moment in history of the show then fast forward to season thirty four of Survivor. and you have the moment where Sree is walking across the balance beam and she does't her try her her her group It was it was an individual, it was a reward challenge, right? Her group doesn't end up winning And Jeff says, Hey, we're going to keep going until you get it right and everybody waits and we see Sereree puts her mind to it and is able to overcome her issues with the balance beam and she walks across the balance beam and she has a moral victory And I said, in that moment, that she actually soft launched Both the newew era and what the show ultimately will become. Not a show about winning the game because listen That's not the most important thing. The most important thing is the growth, the experience and it was Serei herself. That changed the show The the game is the lore, The prize is the experience. Jeff Probes himself will tell you this. And so who has had the greatest and richest experience, Who could put a monetary value on that? But it was really was it was surreree. did all of this and it was her arc that really did change what Survivor is I think it certainly changed a lot of perspective into what Survivor is now. I think especially, you know, there were examples before her. I'm talking to one right now of super fans going onto the show that they love and thriving in it. right? You have on the spectrum of things the Rob Seserinoos to the Ryan shoulders of Hey, sometimes, I mean it's what Sereia says in her first travel council, Rike my advice to people who are watching this from their homes is stay on the couch. Stay on the couch But I think that her success certainly has encouraged other people to be able to firsthand feel like You know what? I can go on there even if I feel like I'm just someone a layabout normal person quote unquote, watching from home And I can make magic absolutely happen I don't need to be this kooky character New Jersey cop or, you know, the smoking hot charity boxer with like Chrisma on charisma and the ability to you know, bat my eyelashes and get people to do what I want to I do think that yes, she certainly has one of the most talked about arcs in survivor history, but I don't think that should come at the cost of the other arcs that I' existed across these people that we have been talking about. We talk about the Boston Rob arc as a great example as well of somebody who rew up over the course of survivor that we got to see during various different phases of his life We see somebody like Parvety who was also able to check in with this show and was also able to come in as someone who didn't know anything about the game and hone and harness her skills to be able to, you know become a finish diamond a couple of times over. Yes, Sereree certainly has put forward an incredible Narrative I will say while some people are within their rights to vote on that as a juror I don't think we should vote on that when it comes to the greatest player of all time. I just think that it adds to her impact. And if we're talking about greatest player, she changed the show perhaps the most of anybody in terms of her impact. So I think it's not the only consideration, but I think it deserves at least a mention here In terms of Serei though as the goat of Survivor We're here to debate this, but I think there's actually little debate whether or not She is the greatest of all time when it comes to the traitors Yeah, so this was going to be the kind of my weird quasi hot take Rob that I was ready to come in with despite taking the anti stance here is that S is, I think one of the greatest reality TV players of all time I don't know if she's the greatest survivor player of all time Okay. Well. justust to talk about and I have been this is something I had had to consider of, you know, is Sereree better than the winner of the season of the Taders that I actually played where I played with Rob Rausuch and he was and I think it's actually very close do think that Sereree is the person that I would give the edge to I think that Rob had a little bit more of a strong ensemble at the start of the game. and I think that that worked to his benefit to not have to do as much of the heavy lifting in the early, you know, in the first half of the game. He ultimately goes and has to do it all by himself in the second half of the game But I think that Sereree coming in as a reality TV survivor player, I think probably had a little bit more of a target on her back and had more to overcome in terms of being somebody who was capable of that. And I think that the fact that she goes to the end with u not one, but two people but like completely snow. donon't even talk to her After the fact, it was just such a masterclass in the first season of the Traders Has anyone drawn the comparison of Saron the Traitors to Boston Rob on Redemption Island? H Think about it, right? This is someone who comes in with an incredibly high profile, albeit this is a completely new show On paper, you think, okay, if you're thinking about who has the potential to be a traitor, she would be number one with a bullet. But she's able to find these Perhaps more gullible newbies are people who were fans of her in the past. and utilize that reputation to go to the end with the people she wanted to and then makes a couple of brutal cutthrow moves at the end, which piss some people off. You mayaybe there's a bit of a Venn diagram between Greant Matos and A from the bachelor. But it is interesting in that Much like we talked about with Boston Rob's game, like I think certainly the argument between Rob Rausch and Serei is like, well, Serei, you know had to play with a bunch of newbies who weren't necessarily, you know reality TV you know, intelligence. You know, she was the only survivor player, I guess Stephanie was, but she's, you know, she was one of the only people from a competitive reality perspective in that in that group U too which I would say like I actually think that while that did make her a big target on paper I do think that again, Traders is such a different game than any of these in that it is a team game Granted, one team is much bigger than the other one, but I think that actually endeared her to a lot of people where it's like Well, we know Seree is good at these games. So if we believe she's a faithful, which is a big if, but if we do, she's a perfect person to work with because she can tell a lot of different things that are happening that maybe we can't. Yeah. I just bring up the traiters because we're I think if It's a it's a easier conversation to have is Serei, the goat of the traiters. And I think that, you know, certainly there are some people that would say, no, Rob was better. But so she's already in the top two. Oh yeah in another show. And I think that to then Bring those skill sets over to Survivor. I just think that the thing that she is so good at. She is better than anybody else is at the thing that she does. Could you argue that The other people we're talking about are as good in any one specific area that is anybody else so head and shoulders above the rest in terms of how they are in the challenges or what they do from a strategic standpoint? I'm not sure. But I do know that she's so much better at what she does then the next best person at that Social manipulation. that I think it outweighs what the the areas that she is not good at Okay, interesteresting. Yeah. So this is going back to what I said before about how I think Serei might be one of the greatest reality TV players, maybe not one of the greatest survivor players is that I do agree that I think You talked with the Sandra podcast right up like if we run a season one hundred times, her positioning, her playstyle is going to be the one to win the most Obviously won' be case with Serei because something will happen with the brand steal it might crash and prevent Serei from winning. But I do think that Serei's skill set is the most useful in any given social strategy show. We haven't even mentioned Big Brother yet, but this is a season that she comes into with papers, something that should be an advantage, but in reality it was much more of a disadvantage in her son, Jared is still able to, you know, make a meal of that game in the first half where she is in several majority alliances is making a lot of these big decisions with Izzy and Felicia, even if she is going back and forth a hundred times. And so I do think that some of the most consistent skills involved in these social strategy games in general, which is charm. is manipulation and which is threat management and picking perfect targets and out of straight out of the boston and Rob Rlebrook convincing people that your idea is their idea She has that on lock. I think what I go to with that statement I mentioned before is that I do think there are elements of the survivor game in particular that I spoke about before with Sandra. I feel like the goat should embody this more well rounded aspect And look that is never going to be Cerei's wheelhouse and it's unfortunate because I think it's just who she is. But I do think specifically there are aspects to survivor. And again, we saw this a bit in Big Brother where she did all this fantastic stuff But then when it comes down to a bunch of competitions like it usually does in the Big Brother end game She couldn't really do anything. She had her back against the wall and it' kind of feckless by the end of it.