Courage and Authenticity in Life

Granger knows when you're procurement manager for an office park You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, H backack on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, click Granger d. com or just stop by Granger For the ones who get it done I'm Greg Richard. It is hot outside and now it's time to cool down. At PC Richard and Sun we have the largest selection of air conditioners all at the guaranteed lowest prices. Come see our knowledgeable salespeople to help get you the right air conditioner today Picture this. The power goes out, your phone's at fifty percent and suddenly your home is cold, dark, and you can't cook a thing Oh and it's the middle of winter. It's freezing. Cld air creeping in and you wrapped in blankets, hoping the heat kicks back on. Well not anymore. Meet the new Patriot P generator twenty two hundred X from fourour Patriots, ourur biggest solar generator ever buuilt to keep your essentials running through winter storms Rlling blackouts Ice outages, whatever hits next. It turns on automatically when the power goes out, can run a full size fridge for up to three days and arrives fully charged So you're ready the moment the lights go out. And right now, for the first time ever, you'll get a free two hundred watt solar panel And once this batch is gone, it's gone. Visit fourpatriots d. com That's the number four patriots dot com and claim your two two hundred X solar generator and free two hundred watt solar panel while this holiday offer lasts Welcome back to the season finale of the Pideest spoken season five finale. My name is Grace Leader. I use she her pronouns,'re gonna to around the horn introduce herselves Yeah, I'm Matt Scott. I use he hy pronouns and Evy. And I'm Ey Jagota. I use they them pronouns. I was a contestant on Survivor seeason forty one Every year, June goes by so quick How are we already in July? How is Pride Month over? Well, it's not It's never over in our homeart. never over Pideide. That is true. But you could have pride lowercase pride all year round Uh Yeah, we're like we're like Pride is bursting at the seams. so we're like extending it in July, which is the same as this episode, which is like an action pack full to the brim extxtra finale extravaganza M. Yeah, We have a lot going on. We have clips that you'll hear throughout the episode from listeners of the Pride haspoken and from the community of what this show means to them. We asked the question, what does being LGBTQ plus in the survivor community mean to you and had some really heartwarming, amazing answers. Thank you for being part of the community And maybe before we get to our lovely interview, which folks have seen is the lovely saage and the clips from Folks, I quickly we had reached out to the organizations that we are supporting this month with the merchdrop to submit some clips. And we heard back from two of them. So we have a special clip from Rainbow Railroad and from Project ten O's, and we'd like to take an opportunity for the organizations to talk about what their work is about and why supporting them is meaningful. So we'll do that now Right now, Rainbow Railroad receives a request for help every twenty six minutes from LGBTQ plus people all over the world who are at risk because of hate, violence and persecution Over sixty countries continue to criminalize our community. and Rainbow Railroad responds by relocating people out of danger, supporting with housing and shelter, health carere and intervening when there is a crisis This work is only possible because of community solidarity. And I want to shout out the Pride hasas Spoken podcast and all of your listeners for supporting the work that Rainbow Railroad does every day to get at risk LGBTTI plus people to safety Thank you so much and happy prride. Thank you so much to the Pride H haspoken team and every single listener who tunes in My name is Kimani and I am the executive Director of the Tenox Project We are a grassroots charity based in Ottawa, Canada that provides lifeifesaving programs and services to children, youth and families, from queer identities and communities We are most known for our summer campps Camp T ten Oaks, an overnight camp for children and youth ages eight to seventeen who are part of the two S LGBTQ plus community or have a parent who is part of the community Well most people know us for our camps We also provide vital monthly year round programs both virtually and in person to children, youth, and families Funds raised from listeners like you will go towards making camp more financially accessible for families who need it providing meals to families who participate in our weekly evening programs and supporting our free gender care program which provides trans and queer folks with gender affirming here every single week All of our programs, our small but mighty team supports over five hundred children with families every single year. As a grassroots charity, our work is not possible without support uss like you Thank you immensely for ensuring that children youth and families from two S LGBTQ plus communities have access to life saving resources Oh, so lovely. Thank you so much to the folks who sent in the clips. means a lot. I love that this project is not just to celebrate queer surviv players and queer survivor fans, all of that wonderful stuff, but also to like do some meaningfully cool stuff. seend people to camp make sure people have safe homes and resources that they need and also shout out Sisters PGH who werere also supporting this month. So super cool And it's not too late to get merched. So head to The R h the website that com a store Or slash merch. Yes, we have the mugs. I have here. I was wearing the sh. I know the logo is on both sides of the mug. Look at that I also have the shirt and we have the buffs. buffs are available. So check it out. Wear your merch year round. I especially love when people wear their merch at these different community events because it definitely signals that you're part of the community or that you're an ally and a supporter. and of course, it supports a great cause. So of getting photo on social media. yeah. I got the mer. I'm wearing my buff. I' wearing my shirt It' so lovevelly so. Yeah, I literally got a suggested person on Facebook that was wearing a p topoken buff on their head. I'm like, I don't know you, but I'm adding you because we should know each other. exactly. Awesomeimes. Yes, but we have the conversation coming up with Sage. Ebbie and I have that conversation and I mean, this was I wouldn't call it a coming out, but this was Sage's first time Y talking about being queer in any public way, so kind of a coming out. Yes, after we stopped recording, Sage was like, by the way, I don't know if I've really ever talked about that publicly, so I guess that was be coming out. So we did it every year we do it E We got one. We got one So that's really one Yeah, deffinitely they have already been out in their life in a lot of various ways. But first recorded conversation about it. so that's always fun. That' we're the place for that. So twenty twenty seven. if you're thinking about just hold off, don't just kidding. Just kidding. Wait a whole year to come Come out whever you would like and when it's time to do so and you feel comfortable doing so, but also open And then DM us. D Yes, and then DMS. But without further ado, o, I guess you're gonna to hear a few clips from the community about what this community and being queer and it means to them, but you'll hear a few of those clips and then we'll get to our conversation with Sage Hey the Pride is Soken. It's Tz Vammis from Australian Celeb Redemption. And thank you so much for asking me this question I've been watching Survivor since I was six years old and in a lot of ways I've grown up alongside the show. What I never expected when I started watching as a kid was that it would eventually lead me to some of the most important friendships I have in my life Being part of the LGBTQ plus community in Saliva has been incredible because there's So, so, so many queer people woven throughout the fandom. On Twitter, events, group chats, et cetera. I found My community that feels like home and something that feels like I've never had to hide myself through For me, it's always been bigger than reality TV. Honestly, the community is where I've been able to find myself where I've met people with shared experiences and where being queer has never felt like something That has set me apart, more so it's set me in ' been one of the things that helped me connect with other LGBTQ people and I've absolutely loved it Hi, this is Kim in Central California. I am into survivor only because of my girlfriend because we got together a little bit before the pandemic and she revealed to me that she was into it. So of course, then I had to get into it. And I really fell in love with it. and it's so funny, I ended up leapfrogging her and started to get into the RHab community Yadda, yada, we are now going to beachdrops and RHP in person events and doing brackets and debating stories and gaming out things and it's been amazing and yeah, the old QA stories are wild, but I just love that there's been this beautiful arc of acceptance and Representation over the years and survivor has brought me and my gal together Just love it Hi, my name is Kathy, also known as Thundercats. I'm a Puo Rican gender queer lesbian And I've always believed that navigating life as a queer person is essentially a social strategy game since we have to contend with the social constructs around gender and sexuality that were built for us So in essence, being queer in and of itself is very survivory And Survivor is so queer coded Fire, plus an island. Hello Getting purpled, we love lavender. swwap screwed. come on But in all seriousness, finding queer peers and allies within the survivor community has been life changing for me. I spent most of my career creating safe spaces for LGBTQ folks in communities and schools, and I didn't realize how much I needed community for myself. And RHP has given me that and so much more The power of our shared desire to connect that incomparable spark when our eyes light up when we find our people That shared power makes all of us stronger Hey, I'm Jay. I use they then pronouns and I'm a day one Survivor fan From the very beginning, Survivor has been a show about telling the story of who we are when both nobody and everybody is watching How do we portray at our core who we are, who we want to be and the kind of person that. can win other people over Bostil. being who we are at our core That to me, is the essence of being queer. Be able to code switch when you're with your tribe versus in a conffessional, being able to navigate making other people like you while also finding a way to be true to who you are The sururvivor community has allowed me to flourish and become the best version of myself to embrace my my non binary identity as well as make friends with people with backgrounds that are similar and wildly different from mine. I'm so glad to be a part of the queer LGBT survivor community If we knew more about our sleep, What will we do differently Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep with Sleep score Apple Watch measures your bedtime consistency, interruptions, and sleep duration And then, every morning it combines these factors into an easy to understand score, from one to one hundred. So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to. veryer high. 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We are delighted to welcome to the Pride hasas Spoken, the one, the only Sage from Survivor forty nine. Thank you so much for being here, Sage. Thank you so much for having me We're delighted to be here. For those of you that are audio only, Sage, what pronouns are you using these days I use she or they pronouns. Thank you for asking. N. Yeah, thank you for being here. It feels look, it feels good to have you here. This is our season finale for the Pride has spoken, No pressure. It's all good, but you're used to finales. so I feel like this is a comfortable spot for you at least totully But I want to ask like how was your Pride month? Like we like to ask people about their pride month overall, but how was yours Very boring. I so ye, I've gone to a couple of Pride events in the past Mhm I mentioned this on Survivor. I really struggle with big crowds. Like if you ever see me in a setting with a lot of people, I am on a wall or in a corner And then this month in particular, I'm in an era of really trying to like embrace and enjoy the now. So I've been home even more than I normally am working on my yard. So it was a peaceful pride month is what I will say Nice. That's exciting. Okay, indndulge me. what do we got going on in the yard? I was Flowers, veggies. Yeah Oh no, I've got to be extra. So I'm working on carving out trails in like this section that has a lot of ferns.. I have this whole vision So bunch we have a couple acres in the immediate vicinity. trying to like carve out trails in the overgrown. I kind want Got got a shit ton of solar lights. That's my thing right now. So just all over the yard, just these little solar lights. I want to get, I don't play basketball, but I really want a basketball hoop U and thus like a little basketball mini court of some sort. A pickleball court would be cool. Wow. Oh my gos. random stuff. Yeah, bonfire pit. Oh my god. Love that. Wow. That's like literally my dream come true to be able to like scheme that way. That's so fun. I mean to have that space and it is cool. It sounds like it also, I mean, it sounds like you kind of have your own little oasis in the midst of I mean the world, the world is a lot. It's just Like I literally live in Washington, DC, but like in the city, I hear cars from the street as we're speaking. So I hope that your like your little oasis comes to I mean, just because I'm curious now and we're falling down that rabbit hole, like what's park the idea for that Well, so I grew up in North Carolina and that's like a really small country town. So like and my partner grew up in like a very rural part of Washington state. and we're both just used to outdoor life. So I have a twin brother, I have two older siblings too. L we were always outside growing up and at my mom's house and my dad's house. my dad had a really cool like Woods that you would go explore. We had a tree house. We just had so many outdoor activities And that was my happy place and I'm like, I just want that property that has got so much shit to do outside. And you could be inside too, but like I just want I want activities. so U Yeah, I think I'm trying to bring like a little bit of the happy moments of childhood to the now M I love that I love that. Yeah. And I feel like it's nice to be able to take yeah, like happy memories from them now. I feel like a lot of times I'm thinking about Yeah, like, like redoing childhood memories, but you know, like doing them again with your current self and with you know now you're an adult and you're able to make those decisions for yourself and also to be able to take a piece of your childhood that you loved and recreate it in your adult life. That's really freaking cool Yes. and my twin just he has a newborn who's under a year and I'm like You're going to come over here all the time. I'm looking up like play sets that are I don't know, I don't know how to describe it, but like You use the outdoors to make the placeet rather than bring the plastic plays sette in. so justust trying to have like the ultimate place from a little nephew. So sweet. Oh my gosh. that's so beautiful and it's like It's so funny, we never know where these conversations will go, but I feel like there's something about like joy, nostalgia embracing joy because I do think a lot of people whether it's related to like the theme of our podcast of like queerness or otherwise, like a lot of people even feel guilty to find that joy. So it's nice to hear that you're like embracing that a bit along the way whichich brings me to a question Because your're on the Pride has spoken you, you know, we were like, oh, Sage is phenomenal. likeike Sagege is fantastic, Sage identifies as queer. but We don't want to tell you how you identify. We want to know like what what do you find Evie, you always say this, so it's weird for you to say. Butike what do you feels like the right identifier for you? Like is queer the term? Is there another term that you use at this point A, thank you so much for asking. Like it really it does go a long way to ask the question rather than just assume because usually the assumptions are I'm sure as in y'all's experience, not right, not anywhere close. I personally prefer the overarching term of queer because when it comes to my sexuality and my gender identity, it is very fluid. It is something that I'm still understanding myself. so it's hard to like articulate it to people in like a nice packaged term beow, but I've really appreciated that term queer because it allows me to like embrace that part of myself without having to fully like shove myself in a particular box. Yeah. I really I really relate with that. I feel like that like So I mean, not Sometimes a more specific label can be extremely meaningful, but a lot of the time, I feel like people spend a lot of time in their coming out journey, whether it's gender, whether it's sexuality being like, but what am I and you know, like what specific thing am I? and there's so much annoying discourse sometimes about like No, that is sapphic, not lesbian, not like I just like Literally these are all words, all human categories are arbitrary essentially. And so who are like to be able to just say enough that people understand where you're coming from where you get to understand yourself, but then have space for that to be Uh yeah, as fluid as you want it to be U makes a lot of sense to me and resonates with me. And if you use a different word, if you use something more specific, that's also great too. But I think ye. A lot of people feel that way That's why it's like just so important. Just ask the question, you know? Like you're gonna get An answer either way and then that answer can inform how you proceed in terms of mutual respect, but Um Yeahah, there's nothing like if you have a label that fits perfectly and that just o, it feels right. I'm so stoked for you and It's nice to have the option to not have to like full send on something Yeah Yeah That feels so beautiful, though, to like have that ability to understand yourself enough and then also have the language to communicate that to others. And something I think that's interesting When it comes to your journey, you mentioned this, but like growing up in a small town I'm so curious what your journey has been with those identities along the way , you know, as quer person as a non binary person or you know, like what has that journey been? Because I do think there's a lot of stereotypes when it comes to small town in the south. Um But, you know, like you said, like the theme of this conversation is it's your story to tell Yeah Oh gosh, I don't I gott to find the best place to start. Well, first of all, yeah, growing up in a like small country town, I will say the town I grew up in Definitely a lot of like traditional, primarily traditional beliefs and stereotypes. and there was queer representation in terms of like U Cysmen, like it was I grew up in a day and age where it was becoming normal to see men who were gay versus like the only women representations that I had were very overly sexualized. So I didn't really at a young age in middle school is like when I started getting I should say this, I've struggled with attraction. I did not experience attraction in the same way that was shown to me or depicted to me or that I was told I was supposed to So I wasn't really interested in dating. I tried it because everyone else is and I'm like, all right, this is what I'm supposed to do, but I never understood it. I didn't have what I know now to be like the same types of feelings that people had, whet like regardless of gender identity, I just I did not feel attracted to people Every I was given was like I don't know, everythingverything's like framed around that of like, you gott to find her husband and settle down and have some kids to the point where I can't remember what age, I want to say it was elementary school. I went to this period of time where I was very sad to be a woman. Like I did not want to be a woman. I thought that meant I wanted to be a man at that point But I dreaded the idea of growing up and becoming a woman that would have to like follow all the things that were shown to me I will say I have two parents who did not grow up in the South. My dad grew up in Cali. My mom grew up in Jersey. That was a huge buffer between like stepping outside their houses to that town, to like coming back home, I never somethinghing I've really grown to appreciate. is My parents, sorry, my dogs were whining My parents amazing Never They never told me who I had to be ever. Like they always gave me permission to explore. I did the most random shit growing up. I went to chest camp, dirt bike camp, race camp, girl Scout camp, boycout camp. I got to do whatever I wanted to do and it was encouraged. And I think that is what really helped me to ultimately like come to this realization later on in life of Oh yeah, with the help of a very dear friend named Jessie um, to realize like to lean in with a little bit more curiosity of like likeike, what does that mean? notot just with like gender or sexuality, but like just broadly speaking, like who who the fuck am I Mmhm Wow, That's amazing. And it's like it's just interesting to hear how even just having the chance to explore and like even try things out. I know you're talking about this in terms of like going to much of these different camps and doing these different activities, but like it's so, I don't know, I think it's easy to overlook how important that is. and I have two adorable nephews who are three and seven and I just think about that of like them having the options in life to figure out who they are rather than being boxed in to something, And so that's like Beautiful and hopeful. and I kind of wantanna cry a little bit right now.ey. Could we cry? We could cry. We'll cry at some point together, yes. U Wait, I'm dying to know more about your friend Jessse and what and who they are in in the role Thanks for asking. I also have a very weird light comt in. The sun has decided to come out. You're going. Okay. Oh. U So a little bit of preface leading up to Jesse When I was in middle school, like I started experiencing like brushes here very occasionally and the first person that rememember vividly like having a crush on Um herer name was, I think Jessica And and again, no I did know it was okay. I had no idea how to even like broach that with her. until one day we ended up in a closet with hide and seek, hide A literal closet. A literal closet. It was a very big closet, but a literal closet nonetheless. and experienced my first ever makeout session and that was really It was So I remember like not knowing how to feel. I was very excited, but also like did I just do something wrong Because you don't. You don't know. Like as a kid, you just don't know. like you really rely on the examples around you So anyways Fast forward to Like throughout midle school, high school,a was that try like a one off thing with that person or Yeah, we never talked about it again, we never did it again. I don't even know if we like hung out again after that, but it was still I really appreciated it because to have that feeling and to not know like Is this reciprocated? Is this okay? Am I disgusting? Like is this gonna make this person hate me? Like what will this lead to And to have like this non verbal just what do you call like is symbiotic the right word? L just this like moment where it's like, oh, you feel it too? L I would have had no idea. So that was a really cool moment that I appreciate a lot. I have no idea what she's up to in now life How about Jessica Shout on Jessica. Thank you.. But no, she was really cute Yeah, And so then you know, after that, I really did not the only people that I would date throughout high school would occasionally, I would try to date a dude. It would last like a week or so. And again onlynly because I thought I had to. No one literally explained to me like, you don't have to. but in my mind I like relationships end I I really, as much as I didn't experience attraction, I really experienced non attraction. likeike I would just feel icky being with people Um M Now like fast forward, now I understand that to be like for me to experience physical attraction, it definitely has to have like the emotional, the intellect. like it has to be so much more before I can like Physical tracting does nothing for me. Like don't I can acknowledge if somebody looks attractive, that doesn't mean that I am like physically attracted to them But that's all that's the only thing ever given. It's like who do you who do you think so and so is cute? And it's like, but what if I do Yeah ye. ye And there's like so much trope, I feel like given to people that grow up as girls of like of like, you're supposed to date guys, but also guys kind of suck.ike, you know what I mean? Like And that messaging is also makes it really hard to figure out like A am I feeling the right thing? You know what I mean? Like I guess this is just the thing that everyone feels where you're like, you're supposed to, but also I roll at your husband. You know what I mean? Like the narratives are so it's so confusing to tease out what what straight people are feeling, you know So confusing. And in fact, to the point where I would experience like both extremes where I would feel nothing or I don't know if y'all are familiar with the term like limerance. I would experience. So limrance Ey is It's it can be there's a lot of things come honey. There's a lot of things that can cause it. A So like knowing now some of the contributors, I think what probably led to experperience oflimerance for me was I developed clinical OCD very young. so there is a lot of like obsessive components with it dopamine deficit, which is very in line with ADHD and then Like identity confusion can also be like a source of it. So it feels obsessive. It feels very extreme and it's like this Mm. In relation to the identity piece, it's like this need for acceptance or like to be like wanted by the other person as like validation of worthiness So it would just be fair like to a point where it was uncomfortable. It was like, oh my gosh. like if I would find a, I think they call it like a limerate object or whatever, the person that you are feeling limerates towards Um It would just, I mean, Matt, it sounds like you know what you're talking about. Yeah street. Do you have any experience or you don't have to? No, absolutely. It's so interesting. I feel like this year, especially, like I've learned more about it. In the last couple of years, I've like through a comedian that I had listened to their podcast, like they were talking so much about ADHD, but then like AudDHD and autism spectrum disorder And then limerance came up out of that. and it's so interesting because like I definitely identify as someone who's like somewhat ne I'll say neurospicy in some way, shape or form. but like limereance is definitely something that I feel like I've experienced where I'm like, oh, wait, it wasn't normal to just like have crushes on your friends when you're growing up like or like develop that connection. And so yeah, it's really interesting because I I feel like it's I don't know. It's interesting becausecause when you experience that and you could speak to this, I'm sure Sage, like It's very different than someone who doesn't experience that and has romantic connections or feelings and the like. And so plus, I just have to say, I appreciate the clinical perspective you're reading. Yeah It's awesome Be Yeahah, well It's such it's and ait the The most devastating part about Limars is that it's involuntary. So like you have this extreme Again, it it's not attraction. It's like a level of obsession of another person and don't have you don't feel like you have a say in it. and it comes out of nowhere. It doesn't really make sense. But again, when you put that like a developing mind that doesn't One, know what's going on is trying to figure out, okay, I'm supposed to like Not just that other I'm supposed to like men specifically and How do I know if I like like like how how? If I if I don't experience what is attraction Th then you almost have to manufacture it and then c limerin. So. Um Yeah, so shit, where was I going with that? So fast forward to graduating from high school, finally starting to like U I joined the military, which is not like a source of pride by any means, but I wanted to go to college and didn't know any other way U And then you know, I started trying to dating apps, meeting up with people And I privately switched my or put in the dating preferences like Like all genders And and started privately dating women, had some great experiences, but again, it didn't feel like an option. And I remember going on a date with one woman And she I think she asked the question of like Yeah, so like When did you realize that you like were gay or like what when did it was either that or like when did you come out to your family And I felt so like, I didn't know what to say because I'm like I don't even know if I'm allowed to claim that. Like I don't really this is like before back then you had gay, lesbian, bisexuals. Exactly That's all that was your options. and none of us felt none of us fell or straight to it. None of it felt right for me, I guess. I guess I'm c, I guess like I felt so guilty because of' like, ye Am I a fraud? and I still still have imposter syndrome, which brings me to Jesse Yes. So First of all, just Jesse has changed my life in so many ways and they would never I've said this to them probably like a thousand times and they are just the type of person that is so humble that I don't think that they would ever only be able to accept How much weight that holds for me when I say that I' like, no, Jesse, I don' think you understand If I had not met you, my life And so beyond like gender, beyond sexuality would be so I probably would not be talking to you all quite frankly. And so I applied for grad school. I went to Uah Tacoma for their social work Masters program. And it's like a cohort model So Jesse was in my cohort. And We u we we just, I don't know, like I don't even know how it started. I have to ask them, but like we started like like interacting with one another and to the point where we would study and then we started hanging out because we lived in the same town at the time. We went out one night to the bars And u I don't know. they they brought it up in such a respectful and curious way But they said something like Yeah, me and so and so were talking. and this is before like like I was identifying as straight. I didn't think I had any other options. U they're like, Yeah me so and so we're talking and we're like you st straight And them saying that was run of the if not the first time. I felt fucking seen. I was. I don't think I'm allowed to cl My first thought was like, oh, like That's really cool that you're questioning that And I don't I'm not allowed to claim that. like that's I'm in a hetero relationship. like So I've had experiences, but like you know technically go Yeah. Which also can we just note how old are you at this time like in your twenties? It was I was twenty I think twenty twenty one. So that was what? five years, five, six years So like Mid to early late early twenties early Okay. Yeah. And you got to that age and basically no one had actually asked you A you straight? No. But how many times in your life had people just assumed you were? And that's the thing kind of what we were getting out before of like If you don't even Yeah, like you can even evenven if you know options exist theoretically exist for someone to actually just ask you like it's a question, notot a gu. Y, rightight? Like that is frreaking huge. Yeah, Yes That's such a full circle moment. Yes. I didn't even make the connection when you asked me that where it's like, yes, please fucking ass. Like I'm not going to going to just talk about it like Like you have to ask me the question. L I'm not going to just bring it up out of nowhere and especially like depending on like who's in the room. But they asked the question and they again, they asked it in a way that felt like a genuine question. It didn't feel like a fantasy assumption from some dude that's like I don't know, you ever been with a woman? with that? L it just that was my only experience prior to Jesse asking me that question was if it was brought up at all, it was in a very overly sexualized nature and it made me so uncomfortable. Ironically, unfortunately, but also kind of beautifully in the same night that Jessse asked me that question. like it led to us like At that point, we were done hopping bars, we were at a table sitting down and having a conversation. Lve it And I'm like, oh, that's so cool. L what makes you like, I don't know. what makes you ask me that question? they're like I don't know, mee and so and so were talking and like we were just like, S just has this like lesbian confidence. I can't explain it. I didn't know anything about me at that time. And I was like, confidence, you say what? And so then I had just opened up to them. I was like, well, you know, like, I've had experiences, but ultimately like I'm in a hetero presenting relationship. So like I don't even think I explained it that way now. Yeah don't even I'm in a relationship with a man so like table Yeah not allowed. And the next thing they said was again, it was just so rooted in compassion and like respecting my autonomy, and they said Okay, I fear you, but Just so you know Sge Just because you're in a relationship with a Cis manan does not mean that you are automatically like justust so you know that. L notot telling you have to do. And I was like Are you sure wait, are you like if this is serious, Jesse, if you're for real right now That it is lame. I'm going need some time to like really process this because again, I just tend to take things very literally. So unless somebody tells me that If there's a blueprint that I've seen, then it helps my brain understand like how to apply that, But I'd never been given the blueprint until Jessse asked me that question And then the unfortunate part of that night is the bartender Yeah. Gross. U He like really took a liing to Jesse and which is cool, like they're awesome. But then he like kind of invited himself after off his shift like came to our table Yeah. And so Jesie and I are having this heartfelt conversation that for me is the first time in my life that I've ever had to talk about this in like a place that felt safe where it's like, again, it's not sexualized. And then. And this guy is like trying to be a part of the conversation, but then he starts He starts sexualizing. He starts making these like gestures and he's like, Yeah o, so you. and I'm like No. it was again, it was ironic but also like simultanously beautiful had that juxtaposition of like, here's like this is what a safe person is. And that's why Jesse' changed my life because they were the first person. They completely changed my understanding of like relationships, friendships And like now I understand, oh, I get to have standards. L I don't just have to be friends anybody. I don't have to interact with anybody. L if you don't provide a safe space for me. likeike I don't have to entertain you. Whereas growing up in the South, being so tized as a woman I didn't know that was an option. I was told I have to entertain everyone and attend to everyone, especially thenen Mhm Eet dejulio Nespera Tina Operaco Tempo Gga mundo Niles resrespondero Al Gamadoinolo unospoos Garana la galaseroanjosubreol Gan Eestno de Operaco Timo, Tados Unidos Marteta deculio p mo And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match they spread He's reaching for the buffalo wing. Perfect Hang on, what's this? Oh, he's good for a Cat of Pepsi too. Incredible That's to finish Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero Sugar for today's match Poetry in motion. Youeed a laptop that's built to perform and designed to last all day? Select Windows eleven PC's starting at four doll ninety nine dollars ny nine cents are now at Best Buy. Learn more at bestestbuy dot comot Best Buy Imagine that Did you know Sam's Club isn't a store? 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There's so much there's so much there. like I think the One thing that just jumps out to me is power of like one, having a safe space and someone who's creating that comfortable environment for you, but then also just power of questions and genuine questions, not a question where you are not actually being asked a question, but like a question that's genuine. and then someone who's actually able to be supportive. And I know we're all like right around the same age too And it just gives me a lot of hope knowing that I feel like there are a lot of us who are socialized to be that friend like Jesse or hopefully could be that friend like Jesse who's creating that space and able to say the thing of like, hey, you have more options than what the dominant narrative and dominant culture tells you what you need to be. And then it's like you said this stage, but like it's so interesting that there was that contrast right there with this bartender, which is like the horrible reminder that some people And I think oftentimes like even in my experienceces too, like men are often like that where it's like, oh, we're talking about being gite. Let's just sexualize it immediately when it's like, no, that's like your identity. It's not automatically seexual liizable And it's not four of them. Like it's not it's not one hundred percent like that person's consumption Milk is yeah. Yeah, yeah And just to like harp on this point that we've really come to of just like ask people questions. Like it's just so important to ask people questions like in a real way. And like like you said, Matt that I'm normally the one that asks, you know, what is, you know, how do you I identify? And I feel like sometimes it's like It can be a little like, is this a rude question or something? except why? It's just like just like, you know, you're just actually asking someone You can ask in a spacious way, you know, you could be like, Hey, J just wondering, do you identify as straight? You know, I just wasn't sure. you know, whatever like whatever it is if you're afraid that, you know, you might be off off the mark like like Jesse did, you know, is sage straight. I feel like but You never know when that question will be the thing. Like one of my exes is a very similar thing. Their story was like One time they were just at of party And someone was like Are you queer? And they're like, oh, yeah, I'm by. And that was the first time they ever said this. Just like a rando at a party. You know? it's just like, yeah, like that makes sense Yeah, it's hard to bring it up out of nowhere at to generate, but It is It is. and I just want to say I relate a lot to what you said Sage because and maybe it was even around the same age, but something I've realized with some of my close friends like from college, who I'm so close with now is like they didn't ask those questions necessarily. So now we're looking back And it's like, Ohh, I like You just it's like in their head I was asexual. I didn't have like a sexuality because they didn't ask those questions necessarily. And it's like, o, I had like this whole life going on, but if you're not asking those questions then you'll never know the answers And also but also, you know, sometimes I think there's something to like creating that safe space too where You know, I've had friends who are queer or who are any certain identity and then just being visible allows space for others to show up in that way Um which like I kind I think it's so interesting that we're talking about questions because like Sage, in your work, which I'm sure you could speak to more than anything, I feel like you are, I'm assuming you are that person for many people if you could like to the work that you do. Is it as a clinical clinical, I don't know why won't say like clinical psychologist, but you could put words too. Oh gosh. No, I don't have a yeah. I don't have a doctorate. I have a master's in social work. so I'm a clical licensed clinical social worker is like clical fancy term and call a therapist, counselor. U But no, you know, I'm actually I am getting emotional when I'm thinking about it because like I have had clients who I'm the first person that they talk to about their sexuality or their gender identity. Like having that experience with Jesse really gave me the blueprint of Okay, what did they do in that moment to make me feel safe and how can I do that here? you know, in like Sometimes you can somethingomet that when you were talking Evy, of like Asking the question, right Sometimes People might get offended and that's okay. like They're allowed to get offended. And I think so many people often more oftentimes than not, don't ask the curious questions Yeah becausecause they're afraid of offending somebody. You're not afraid of offending somebody. You're afraid of feeling discomfort. You're afraid of feeling uncomfortable because you offend somebody. Somebody being offended is not a problem. That is data that you get a decision. How do I move forward? Do I honor and try to hear this person and what they're saying? Like I have said something. My intention was not to offend them, but that's the impact. Can I just like appreciate that and use that of like, okay, thank you for letting me go than you, right? Like It's not that you're afraid of offending somebody. It's afraid of you are afraid of being uncomfortable. Get over it. It's discomfort. That is where the growth is. And so All that to say like I now I don't again, if it wasn't for Jessse, I don't think that I would be in a place like I was socialized as a white middle class woman. Right? So like I had a like I've gone through periods and it's so fringe wororthy to like actual cringe not to like cre that's just co shame cooded. Like actual cringe of like you know, experiencing enlightenment and thinking like, oh, now I know more, like because I've learned about this subject, now I'm a subject matter expert. And had it not been for Jessse asking that question, I probably would be approaching clients in that way and that would be causing a lot of harm. But because they showed me how to lean back into the curiosity that I had abandoned so long ago because It was punished and condemned and rejected so often. L being able to find my way back to that curiosity is like that is if nothing else that I was reflecting on feedback I've gotten. Im a baby therapist, by the way. Like I'm associate level. I'm about to take my full licensure exam. I am a very young therapist Mhm I have had and I don't say this as a bragging point because when I hear it, there's a like automatic rejection. but I the number of people I have a little noteepad that I'll write down if somebody says something that really touches me in session like about our rappor relationship. Wow and somebody said something this week and I was like, you know what? I the time I've been a slump, likeike let me read this stuff. It's been a while There were so many entries of people saying I was the best counselor or therapist they've ever had. And my first thought is I must be doing something wrong because what the fuck do you mean me as a baby therapist? And a lot of that was when I was like still in grad school. Like what do you mean What Like, I've gott toa be doing something wrong But I think what it is is like if somebody has an experience with me especially as a grad student the grad student therapist The only skills I had at that time was to genuinely listen and try to hear and approach with curiosity. That's the only two things I had. And it's the two things that are still the foundation for anything else. before any approach, before any modality It is And I really try to hear this person And can I try to meet them with curiosity And that are those are the same things that have been the moments in my life when somebody really meets me in those same ways that have been the most impactful. It's that simple. It's not simple Yeah Yeah. this is so powerful. for that. No, but it's yeah, no, it's powerful. And then there's all this other schooling where you get all these other skills or everything else that you're doing to like work up to your licensure that I'm sure builds out your skills. but Yeah, it's it's interesting to think how much that resonates with people. I'm not I'm not surprised that you've been like you're the best therapist best counselor therapist that a lot of people have experienced U I'm so curious though There's so much learning and so much growth that it sounds like you've had. And of course we're the Pide has spoken. So we talk sururvivor How do you feel like that All of that like learning and growth that you had weather related here queerness or otherwise with all the things kind of like served you in your survivor journey Yeah. So again, being socialized as a woman in the South I never The people pleasing, the I never got an opportunity to like understand who I was. And so what would end up happening is I would Tirelessly, tirelessly try to confform myself not consciously, It's a very unconscious response, but in hindsight, it's like, oh, that's what was happening Like just try to be what everybody else wanted me to be. And it would often turn up with like no results. because it's not authentic. And if for people who did like it, It wasn't because they liked me,'s because they liked what I was offering them And so I would just like find myself in this constant depleted cycle And so again to me, it's it's rooted back to Jessie, but I also really I've been in I've been with my partner for over a decade at this point and He has been suchuch a consistent source of like safety and validation. He didn't have the same like understanding and language that Jesse did when it comes to sexuality and gender. As an overall just accepting me as I am, he has seen me through everything. Like he has seen me as cliche as it sounds the lowest of low and the highest of high Wow. And not once has he ever treated me differently? whether I was at a low point or a high point, it's been consistent And so I think that combined with meeting Jesse, really sl laid this started to lay this foundation that I didn't have prior of understanding like who I am. And going into a game like Survivor, you have to know who you are because you are going with so many different strangers It's a high stakes environment. If you don't have a sense of like This is who I am. This is what I'm bringing that anchor point. L you are going to get frazzled. You are going to get more dysregulated than you already are going to be at a baseline because you're starving and sleep deprived and dehydrated. You have to know who you are. So It's funny, like And the producers want people that are like, we want people that are going to get a life changing experience.. Remember being an alternate And as an alternate for forty seven, you still have to do like the pre game interviews or whatever. just in the event like something happens, you go in And one of the producers was asking me, he's like Yeah. so is sururvivor going to be like H is like Main I can't remember how I said, but it's like this some version of like main story of your life And I was like, And I thought my head was like, if I answer this honestly, it could cost me like getting it right back but I didt answer honestly. I was like No, like, it would be this much of my life It was not a life changing experience, but it was a very affirming one. and that is what I need. I had life changing moments. This was like an environment where I got to put everything to the test from, you know the I Seed water sunshine. That's how I view life You get a lot of seeds planted, you get The watering stage, which should be very long and daunting and dark and it can look very similar to wilting, but it's not. You have to bear with it in order to get to the sunshine And I think Jesse was a very much a sunshine moment for me. So like I don't want to say like, Jesse, like, you did all the work like I was They They watered seeds that needed to be watered and then they were that sunshine Getting to see that metaphorical garden play out and survivor, that was the biggest gift. It wasn't life changing and I didn't need life changing, but I did need an affirming experience and it was that Oo, wow. I resonate with that so much, Sage. I actually don't think I've ever heard someone Describe it like desescribe that as resident as like my experience. We're like, yes, I'm like, I just had this conversation with someone recently where they were like So that's like the first line of your obituary, right? Like that's got to be the coolest thing you ever did. And I was like, I fucking hope not. I did that for for six months. So six weeks, six weeks, like six weeks of one year in my when I was twenty eight, like my life is so richin full And like and I do think that that is the people I really do think that is also often key to doing well at Survivor very much like you're saying. like you think of, you know some of these people like like Jeremy, like he's got a full life and he knows what he's doing there and that's why he's good at Survivor. You know what I mean? Like Sereree, like yeah, she's got all these like amazing skills and fullness of her life that she's bringing to the game. And I don't know, I just, yeah, that really speaks to me where it's like Yes, it was. It is this really cool thing to do. And like I definitely changed as a result. like it's like It's like it's not like it wasn't like life changing literally, but it wasn't like The moment of my life, you know what I mean? And like I really like I hope I hope for every survivor player that it's not. L it's just one thing that you do in your life, you know? Yeah, I just have to shout. Another person who comes to mind who I know you mentioned like leading into your season was Ty who was on was it the first season of the Predest? Yes, he was Check it out. Amazing interview with Ty from a few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. it's so beautiful though. And it's so interesting because even thinking of Ty and a lot of other queer folks, but like Ty comes to mind with this is that there was like so much to his story. actually Timing, I'm just rewatching Survivor Co wrong Which is wild to think was that wasas Yngcoo wrong? I think that's right. Okay. Yeah. on RHAP, we just they're rewatching Sia Ko wrong or just're rewatching it. And there's so much story that we get from him, but something we talk about a lot on the Pride is spoken in particular is how when it comes to like women and their stories and I Ebbie, I don't know if we've like stumbled onto this pattern through these interviews and conversations and doing this podcast, but like oftentimes women are depicted in a specific way on the show or like queer or not depicted at all. Or not depicted at all. There's that. But also like the queer aspect like queerness as part of their identity is necessarily depicted I know you have your own relationship with queerness, but I'm curious like how did you feel ultimately about like your own depiction Again, like in general, but There's also like the queerness aspect of it. and I'm curious if that was part of what you were like hoping was part of your story. And I'm forgetting, wasas it mentioned at? I don't remember. Yeah. No, It wasn't, which is okay with me. So I very much still struggle with impmposter syyndrome When it comes to like my queerness And I'm like The reality is is that I am in a hetero presenting relationship. I have a lot of like hetero presenting privileges. so like I don't It is my opinion. Maybe this will change at a different point. Maybe other people have different opinions, but like Iidols I'm okay that my queerness was not depicted. I do not think I should be the face of queerness. I do not have the same queer experiences. I think that I would have I think it would have been very inappropriate is how I feel because Hi, Hello Bentley I This is I this next part is very awkward to talk about because It can get just ripped to pieces and for so many different interpretations, but like I'm aware that I like I'm very fem presenting. I'm aware of that, and I fit traditional fem presenting stereotypes that are like appealing in current societal terms. Like I don't know how to say it. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I can recognize it whatever No, Survivor is looking at you as like, look at this hot woman on our show. Right And its it's very disappointing, but I think That is like what reality like they latch on to people who fit those societal norms and they try to make them the face of things that are very serious or very like important. and it's inappropriate. I'm not saying thats there's probably so much nuance in that. So I'm not trying to discredit anyone's experiences or like feelings or opinions that vary. This is just where I kind of sit currently. I don't think it would have been appropriate. think I would have been very uncomfortable like being the face of of queerness when like and again, in my reality, my queer journey and experience has a a ton of privilege and does not capture like the important parts of that journey for most people. It's not appropriate. So I'm okay that it was't depicted That's you know what? It's interesting because this reminds me of a conversation we had earlier this season on the prize I spoken with someone from Australian Survivor Miles who went on to win the season and he kind of said something similar in a way where that's just like one part of his identity. And I do think there's something Really that's like validating, I understand what you're saying because there's something that's validating to your own identity and your whole personhood of recognizing that that's a part of you, but there are so many other parts of you and I could imagine a world where it's like, you know, where you feel like you're being forced to talk about something or own something even more than it, you know other aspects of your identity that should be highlighted and celebrated. So it's complicated and nuanced, which I feel like you're the queen of nuance. L I always appreciate you referencing nuance. Like you're like the nuance is there. I love it. I love it. That's my passion.. No problem No and I'll say like I think like, Yeah, the hard thing with anything that sururvivor shows, right is that they're telling the story. you're not telling the story. So like I really understand that fear of like How are they gonna like not wanting to be put in a spotlight in a way that feels like not your place in the in the in in it. And and I'll say You just told like the most canonically queer story in so many days. You know what I mean? Like I just want to push back a little bit on the that you don't doments. you know, like that is like like you grew up struggling with like, what does it mean to be attraction? Like what is my gender? L what you know you had a big moment about that? I feel like there's like, I think sometimes the conversation gets like flattened into like, I think there's two different things where it's like One is like, yes, like not wanting people with, you know, wanting to uplift loudest the voices of the most marginalized. like I think that is extremely important. And like that's who we want to be, you know, really like investing in and like lifting up and like all these things, like I think that one hundred percent agree with And that's different from like Is everybody's individual story valid and true and queer and et cetera? And I actually think like U Yeah, the more that people, even people with heteropassing privilege in various ways actually own their identity as queer people who are in you know heteropresenting relationships. that just means there's more people who see themselves as queer people and as aligned with the movement and as empathetic to queer people, you know, like of all types. And so like I just think that like If you're listening out there and you're having that feeling, like you're fucking queer in whatever word you want and like that And I think the the the like The linking of that is like if you are someone that has more privilege, then you should actually speak louder of like not like my story is the most important, but like queer people are important and there's so many of us out there, etcetera, et ceta. especially we're under attack in so many ways. So that' that's my two cents on that. And I appreciate you for not wanting to take up like the wrong stace, but I'm so fucking glad you're here telling your story And and I just like That's all just really real and so many people will go through that. so. Thank you, Abby. No, I think that's I really appreciate you saying all that. like more than like personally, but like on a macro level, I do think anything you just s is so important And I guess so I guess the nuance would be Yeah to your point of like, yeah, I can't control how producers would I don't think it would be appropriate for me to be on the big screen, but like maybe there's a different space you know?. And so thank you, E.ike like you're right here.. Exactly. That's why we're here. And I do think it's lovely like just while we're talking about this to point to like a couple of other people come to mind for me. One is Andy from seeason forty seven, who like being bisexual is part of his story, but also in like a hetero presenting relationship. And then I think of similarly and this was not part of her story on season forty four of Survivor, but I think of Franny who also has that similar dynamic too and you know I love this conversation. I love the nuance. Nuance should be like the tagline, the hash, hashtag nuance. hashtag the part is soken. justust 'cause like all these both of these things or all these things can be true at the same time And ye, life is complicated. People are complicated and nuanced Yeah true And that's even ask your friends that seem like they're in straight relationships. You should ask them too. you know, like that's just like and you can ask them in five years in ten years. You know what I mean? People cheer. Like I'm just like, yeah, like yeah, nuance, nothing is a box, notothing is fixed. I got hot it up there. I got hot. I love it. I love it. I love the fashion. Well, while we're on Well I'm hopped up. Could you speak a little more about your relationship to gender and how you think about that for yourself and kind of how that fits into everything you'm talking about? Yeah. So again, going back to the grad school U, I don't like so Let me just plug social work for a second because D has I know a lot of people like I used to be like have a lot of misconceptions as to what that is. They hear social work and they think like child Puctive services, which is a part of social work, but it's not the entirety of social work. It's a very specific subsection So social work in general, I mean, it's reallyally just In its name, literally, it's like trying to understand social concepts and how those impact people of different identities, the intersectionality of those identities systems and how those affect people on a social level. so U A lot of identity conversation and social work. the conversations that were not present in that small country town growing up very enlightening, very important, very , very beautiful. So in addition to like talking about sexuality, like gender would come up and then Um I mean, again, like I It's fine good Linkoln this to Survivor, Evy, you're familiar with the psychology or what do you call the assessments, the psychological assessments we have to do? Yes, yes, the torture And it was funny. this was so for records, I had to do those Four times. Oh my Godd. Yeah. And they're like four hours for those of you who are Yeah. because you did them the you did them for forty seven and then again for forty nine. Did they think your personality changed drastically in that one year or they stayed the same interesterestingly. I'm like So why they make you do it? That's what I'm saying. I know Oh, I know, right. I had to do it for Big Bother I had to do it for the mole and then I had to do it for Survivor twice. It expires after a year. But yeah, right? L Same person. Yeah. but u It was funny. the person who the psychologist who like interprets those results and then reads it back to you and goes over it U She point out One, the this I can't remember which one it is, but this particular psychological assessment that had this criterion or whatever you call it M Ver outdated. She acknowledged that. It's very binary. there's a lot of language that's problematic, but it's the ones that, you know, CVS still chooses to use, whatever And there's like a scale of masculinity and femininity And u I often like tend to Scott score higher on the masculinity scale U And so she was going over like, yeah, what does that probably mean? And I really loveved a psychologist, but like the way she described it, She was like, Yeahah, that probably means that you you don't really relate with women as much. Like when they're talking about like kind of like women stuff, like you're probably not that interested, but if you were in a group of guys, I was like, in my head, I'm like No to both all of that. Like I'm not really interested in anything that falls in a particular like traditional like binary gender norm. Like I don't my interests are very random. They don't really make any sense and they're not yeah, they You wouldn't know who I would vibe with based on if you had a list of my interests Um That's so such a freicaking weird way to describe anything. Like yeah, Th those girls are talking about girls that like right. Yeah what even is that? Yeah Yeah Yeah. so and that's like when it comes to like When it comes to my gender identity, I had a professor who used the term like, I think gender queer is what they they used. And I was like, you know That resonates with me a little bit more than non binary And I don't exactly know why that is. I think probably a lot of societal conditioning of like when I think like the image that comes up with non binary and I'm like, oh, do I match that? So like, The jury's still out. Is it non binary? Is it gender queer? Is it something else? Like I'm working against a lot of societal conditioning on a daily basis as we all are, But yeah, no, I do like gender feear because the reality is is that When it comes to my gender expression, it does tend to be very fem presenting. That is what I've noticed I prefer But it also comes with a lot of assumptions. and it's You can always tell how you're being perceived based on like the opening liners or the conversation starters that people choose U And it just does it really doesn't resonate. Like the assumptions that people bring to me don't really match how I feel on the inside, but how I feel on the inside I don't really know how to articulate that either, but it's I struggle with the terms, masculinity and feminity because it's like, well, if we're going to use those terms We have to have a pre conversation. L are we talking about from like a traditional Western societal standpoint? Are we talking spiritually? Are we talking a different cultural lens? Like how are we defining masculineity and feminity? Because that's going to change my answers, like depending on what we are trying to what those terms mean. so Broadly speaking, I just don't I don't find that I really resonate With any of that, if we're thinking about it from like traditional definitions in the Western society of masculine feminity, Yes, I am like very direct. I do tend to have like a Mm U, I don't know. like It's just direct. People call it, bitchy, people call it blunt, P people call it like cold or everybody I'm like, I I don't know like how to make you think otherwise, but if I wish you could be in my head because I'm literally just saying, I'm just responding. But I also am very u gentle and compassionate. likeike I have qualities that fit all over the spectrums, but again it also depends on what spectrum we're talking about and how we're defining it. So that was a lot of word vomit to say like I don't fucking know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that' it's like it's so interesting you've been just hearing all that because I I have this thought coming into our conversation too, just refreshing myself on different interviews you've done. and I very much relate to this at times where sometimes people want to put you into a box, which I think, especially from a casting perspective, like there's the idea of archetype. So here's like this person who fits into this box or that box. And like how do we sum up what this character is in one line? And I think where you're really interesting and awesome and where I resonate with you, but I'm sure tons of people do is that you don't fit into any of those boxes, which maybe in someone's minds, they're like, oh, you like That' sayage's box, that there are no boxes. or I don't know how they look at that. but I do think it's sort of notable that somehow Um casting teams and maybe it's because you're such a like strong storyteller, but casting teams see like, oh, saage doesn't need to be in a box. like there's a million different aspects of you and I actually think that I mean, a lot of There are a few folks that really but Ebby, I also think of our conversation with Carlyn, Carlyn Weger from forty four and there's I'm sure you've heard this before, Sage, but there's definitely some similarities there between the two of you and just being these nuanced people who somehow end up on our TV in a world where we don't get a ton of nuanced characters at times. I could say nuance a million times. I hope someone has their nuance counter goingo. Nuance.. it's my love language, K Yeah I have nothing to add. I just like I'm like, yeah. There no But you know, in the spirit of You know, you defining your story sage, especially because I feel like we could actually be here forever talking with you. But I am curious if there's any part of like your story and who you are in the broader sense that You wish that people saw or aspects of who you are that you wish that people more or I should say maybe in a different way because I think there's an assumption there that you want people to perceive you in some way and have an opinion, which is like very complicated Yeah. but It's way. But I guess exactly that. For the people that do perceive you and like have assumptions and come at you a certain way, is there anything that you wish that they saw instead? Well I think you're spot on. because as you're asking the question, I'm like, fuck, I don't know how I'm going answer this. L I don't nothing instantly comes to mind. so then kind of as I noted before we started like, uh oh I have to manufacture response and I don't want to do that. What I will say is you're exactly right. of like, I don't want to be perceived. That's the point. That's why I use terms like partner. That's why I put they in my pronouns. that I don't I want you I know how I I'm painfully aware of how I'm often perceived on the outside. and I want to intentionally just make you just stop and think for a second. just break the script, break the societal conditioning Um What I will say is rather than what I want you to know about me, it's funny. At the end of all these interviews, people always ask, you have anywhere that you want people to look? and I want to say in the mirror. L in the mirror. takeake a second. And I don't mean that in like a you dont I mean like, no genuinely, like just pause. Lase, like in a in a day and age where Our attention spans are intentionally being cut shorter and shorter and shorter. so we stay more and more unaware and have less tolerance to stay informed. Please, just pause like When you hear me speak, this is this is my long way of answering your question When you hear me or anybody speak I want you to pause And go inward for a second. What's coming up? How do you feel? What is the feeling? What is the body sensation And than. Why is that? For people who don't like me, you don't know me. For anybody that If you don't like Matt, if you don't like Evie, you don't know anybody. you know little bits and pieces. So what is it in yourself that's coming up as well as if you really like somebody, if you really like me, if you really like Matt, if you really like Ed. you also don't really know. Yeah, yeah. ye. This It's not about me. It's not about you. It's you. not it's about yourself I just want people rather than trying to put me in a box Can you just pause and be with yourself and like what box are you in right now? and does that box fit for you? Whatever comes up as a response or reaction to what I or anybody else is saying Oftentimes, a lot of nuots People who need accountability don't use this as a way out of it. but whatever comes up for you, Get curious about that because it's often not about the person that you're judging. It's usually you're judging a part of yourself. That's why I don't get mad at the mean comments. I also don't really see them, but like I don't get mad When I hear unfavorable things, I shit you not. My first reaction is Oh Like it's empathy. It's like, I know what that feels like I've experienced it a lot in the past. I'm gonna experience it in the future. I'll probably experience versions of it now familiar with yourself and love those parts that are hard to love or continue loving those parts that you've learned to love, love them even more. Ditch the shame and get curious about yourself. Wow Oh I love that I love that. That's that's honestly brilliant. The like Yeah, it iss such a good way of like of talking about the parasocial relationship stuff where it is just like it just is fully about. The what the viewer is feeling in relation to like the glimpses of information they have. So it just inherently is much more about them than it is about you That is yeah, that's a great way of putting it Yeah. That's so beautiful. I mean, I will ask this as we sort of wrap up I wish we could be here forever, really. But hit me up. Yeah, I know. abbsolutely. But you know, I want to ask you, especially thinking of our audience of queer listeners or LGBTQ plus listeners, however folks identify along the way, is there are there any words of anything in particular that you have for folks, whether that's just like wisdom, love,, anything that you want to share with folks who are tuning in. So much wisdom has already been dropped. Oh, one thousand percent. Yeah Thank you. You know, there's a there's a I don't know if I'll get the quote right and there's a lot of quotes that speak to it. Maybe it's more appropriate to call it a concept or I guess But it came up recently and I can't stop thinking about it. And I've been feeling a little bit lost like in the last month or so Um And this quote really just or this perspective really did something for me. And it's the reminder that To be brave or courageous does not require like Be those things to do something that's brave or courageous is to do it even when you feel the fear. So often we see people who we perceive to be like brave or courageous and we think like Wow, like gosh, they just they don't feel any fear or anxiety. That's why they can do the thing and I'll never be able to do that because I have so much fear and anxiety. That's not true. That's not true. Some of the most feedback I got after Survivor was like praising me on my authenticity. And that was as touching as it was It was also like, holy shit Like I've strived for that my entire life and I didn't know how to do it because I was too scared because when I was authentic, it was rejected. It was condemned, It was too scary But then I just started. I'm like, you know what? Fuck it. Like not being myself is miserable. What do I have to lose? And it's scary. It's till to this day. There's times where I know like if I show up as me probablyably not going to be accepted, but I have to do it anyways because I refuse to abandon myself. So my words would be You are brave. everyverybody can be brave and courageous. It is not the absence of fear. It is not the absence of anxiety. It is the presence of those things and doing the thing anyways So everybody's brave and courageous. Just lean into it, tap into it. The fear is just it's an emotion. it's not a dictator Agh Yes, yes, yes. I love that so much. And I wna remind everyone that's like when you do the brave thing, then that also opens the door for someone else to do the brave thing, right? Like your friend, Jesse went on their whole journey that led them to be able to ask you that question. you know, me and Matt went on our journeys that brought us doing this podcast. You know, it's just like it's just You have more ripple effects than you can ever know, especially if you're just being yourself because that just really does make everybody more able to do that And I think I really do think that's why people so resonated with you Sage of just like, Like stage is being authentic. It's not necessarily the same person as I am, but it makes me feel like I can be my own Weird O self, whatever that is. You know what I mean? And that's frreaking beautiful Ah. Thank you so much, Sage And you. Yeah This was this was really truly a delight. and it was really, really wonderful to talk with you. And I think that there was a lot here for all of our beautiful listeners to mull over for for some time. So thank you so much Thank you. Can I say one thing? Yes.ase Shout out Jesse and Talyia. I love you both so much. Thank you for being patient with me. I know I'm ghost mode right now, but I w see you both soon. Nice Are you you going to send them the podcast Oh yeah, I probably don't even have to. Sallally is a huge survivor fan. Sallally is Jesse's partner. Nice. Nice. Well, good work, good work, you both Yeah. thanks again Seriously,'s awesome. Thank you both. Thanks for having me, seriously, like unexpected, but really an honor. And I just appreciate you for making space and getting curious. How ye. Nuced people Nuance, nuance, nuance Survivor has always made me feel seen My name's Will and I'm a trans man. And really the first time I remember seeing a trans person depicted in media was when I was twelve years old and I watched Survivor for the first time and I saw game changers when Zeke was outed by Jeff Varner And when I was fifteen, I was outed as a trans person myself, and Zeke's story reminded me that I wasn't alone in what I was going through That was in May of twenty twenty one and that September Ey was on Survivor forty one and it was just so important to my family and I, seeing Evy be successful and happy and pursuing their survivor dreams and showing that I could be too And now It's five years later and I'm a senior at UMass Boston, where I wrote my thesis on the evolving characterization of survivor contestants. and I have the privilege of working for underground games, a quer own business that builds survivor challenges, and I'm surrounded by community, including the fact that I get to call Ebby my friend Survivor means everything to me H'm Matt, Dr. Eie, and Grace Listening to Pride has spoken. It was actually my gateway into all of RHAP. I was this was the first podcast I listened to and the network And beinging a gay man who has been on a reality show myself I just really enjoyed connecting with the community As O like minded people and realizing like when I was little watching Survivor, I thought it was just me and a bunch of forty year old women watching Survivor, all my teachers watch Survivor. And so later in life getting to actually connect with fellow LGBTQ plus sururvivor watchers has meant so much to me and has really added to my whole survivor world. So thank you Hey, I'm Elliot D them What being queer in the survivor community has mean to me is that I have so much acceptance and love and new friends and chosen family Even when my own family doesn't accept me And this year was the first year where I put on my Facebook where there's even some not cool people Hey, I'm queer pereriod. that's it. I didn't leave it up to question Even though beforehand, most people already knew Most people already knew that I am queer as fook. I don't know if I could say that in this video, but I think Anyway, I started following Survivor seeason forty one, Dr. Ebby Jagota I saw their TikTok where they were like, I'm a little guy, but I'm also a lesbian And that hit me in my soul and I love them. I love the pride has spoken I've talked to you guys a lot. And you guys Artabis. Ii am Michael. I'm an associate professor in computer science in a French university. And in our lab, we have a monthly drinks with queer people to share our stories And the They help me be more out and since I bought my A pideers spoken t shirt, I've been even more out at the lam and doing my teachings And two months ago, one of my former students who is now in the lab told me that she struggled to find a university where she felt includreed and okay And One of her first classes was with me and I was wearing a preda sppoken t shirt and she told me that she it helped her a lot. included and safe and I want to thank you for everything you do without knowing it. Thank you We love to hear from we love to hear from everyone so much. Thank you so much. And you are allowed to swear on the podcast. Yeah, you are allowed to swear on the podcast. I's just been very much there's been like some much much more you know, salacious stuff on the podcast. Yeah than an F bomb, you know That's so sweet. That was so sweet Yeah. And Will from Drew from McKill and from Elliot. Thankk you so much. And thank you to the first batch of clips you played. Y. Do you shout out those names, Matt? Yes. There's Thundercats, Jay, Kim, Mz. Just thank you all for being part of this episode and sharing your love of this community and being visible and all the things, I at a loss for words, I think It's literally so special and magical. Like I just think about like for every one person that sends us a video, a video message back, just like all the hundreds of people that didn't and are having these experiences. and it's just So cool and then you add in, you know, the people Watch Survivor and see me, any of the other amazing queer survivor players that we've had on all these seasons of The Pride has sppoken, including Sage and It's just so special and cool. This has really, I really entered this season of the Pride of Spoken feeling Like my survivor cup was empty and I was like, I need a break and now I've gotten extremely uplifted from All the beautiful conversations we've had and all these videos and our hilarious couples game, and I don't know, just just leving leaving feeling way better than I started and that's so special and cool. Thank you, everyone what a delight? What a treat. Well it's a little inside the I was like, man I don't know that we should like react. It's going to feel like they're going to be like, we love the thingsike I was so wrong. It was so sweet and so nice. Thankk you so much everybody who sending clips or people who didn't sending clips but reach out in other ways or who just listen. I think that's important too Yeah. And I think like I also agree this has been like an incredibly Amazing season. againg, season five, a little bit of a milestone