Tony's lasting legacy on Survivor

L a Cayan Jack Margarita and taste your skate. It's America's number one for a reason. Cayman Jack is a premium malt beverage with flavors. Please drink responsibly, Cayman Jack Beverage Company, Chicago, Illinois Hey everybodybody, what's going on? Rob Sesrino back with you to talk to Mike Bloom about a question that we are asking here in this series of podcasts. Who is Survivor's goat? And today, on the menu, a man who has won sururvivor not once But twice, let's find out is Tony Vlachos the goat And to talk about that, I have a fellow New Jersey resident giveive it up for Mike Bom Bloom like the Garden of which our beautiful state is nicknamed gets Rough. I mean appropriately, I mean, the coin, Magic coin decided how this would all play out, but This is being released on the day of the Tony Awards as well. Oh wow. Okaykay, a hu SEO win for us as we discuss the Tonys. And we're talking about a guy who is known for creating some tribal council theatrics as well. So it's very appropriate the occasion. Y. Okay. And so this is a five part series. if you're just joining us here for the first time. This is the first of this series where week by week we're going to go through one of our five potential candidates for who is Survivor's Gat. Those will be in alphabetical order. Letee if I can get this right. It's going to be Tony Sandra, Rob poverty, Sree. N me not me Boston, Rob, not imagine imagine we discussed who's the goat and then I was also in the contention. I mean, spepeaking of that, Rob, we did get, know a lot of responses to our our initial podcast that we did introducing this entire concept of people saying, you know, where's Aubrey? Where's Kim? Where's Jeremy? So maybe that wouldll be the next experiment is trying to figure out like who we got five, Let's make it ten by the end of this l. Listen, maybe that could be if we end up getting to the end of this, people are like, hey, you really need to make the case for this person, make the case for this person. I think that listen, if it's that successful, we'll be happy to do it. But today It's all about Tony. So Mike and I have decided that we were going to flip a coin before each of these episodes. And I do have the coin around here somewhere because we'll flip it at the end of this episode. We're going to flip a coin. It's not a Mrter Be's coin. It is a half dollar And And Tony dealt with his own coin flip and his winners at war, right? Michelle flipped that fivety fifty coin.. Yep. And so we will flip a coin at the end of this podcast and we will talk about who will be making the case for Sandra being the goat and who will be in the unenviable position of making the devil's advocate argument against Sandra. But that's next week For this episode, Mike Bloumom and I flip the coin and Mike Bloom is going to be the person who is making the case for Tony as the goat. and I will be in a very undesirable position for me of having to be The deevil's advocate against Tony, Mike. I know you're not the biggest WWE wrestling guy. Have you ever seen the meme, the gif sometimes of Seaan Michaels is in a match against Rick Flair And Rick Flair is all bloody. He's old. He's not doing great and Sean Michaels goes He has to that the band is warming up. It's time for sweet chin music He doesn't want to He doesn't that's his finishing move. It's a kick to the side of the face, knocks a person out. They called it sweet Chin music. It's Seaun Michael's finishing move, but that's his hero, Rick Flair. He doesn't want to give Rick Flair the sweet chin music But he has to That's what his job is Chin music sounds like some sort of like euphemism for like, you talk too much. You're giving too much chin music. Stop moving that ch music. Yeah, it's a kick to the face. It's like a, you know, a side kick to the face, if you could imagine So yeah, let's we talked about this in the intro podcast, but I think it bears repeating as a disclaimer at the top of this. The opinions, arguments that are going to be rem madeade are not necessarily representative That's the opinions of Rop screen. I' heartbak kid. I'm in this position that I have to give the sweet chin music to my hero That's the thing is that let me to know dip my toes into the ring myself and say that these podcasts require a face and a heel.. It requires someone coming in here and trying to poke holes in some of these arguments. We're simply doing what fans have been doing in Te Memorium, twenty six years on Strong It doesn't mean that we're going to be haters. It just means that we have to represent the opposite viewpoint in the who's the goat deate So Mike, where do you want to start talking about the survivor career and legacy of Tony Vlachos Yeah, so we were talking a bit before about like what's the best way to structure us. mayaybe this will change as it goes along a very open era in this way of we don't know how we're going to structure every single podcast. But I thought it might be better L a Boston Rob, we might just get better every time. Exactly. But it might be best if we sort of did more of a piecemeal back and forth. you know, unlike perhaps a proper debate, I'm not going to give an entire like five minute opening cellone and then you a conversation. It's a conversation. exactly. So Settle in, folks, because in my opinion, we can just stop the series right after this. Okay. The series last We can be one and done here because I am going to talk to you all A a man who was able to somehow be the most colorful character in survivor history, yet remain quite literally obscured by Flora and Fauna someone who is able to in his second win third season overall Barry himself underground to not get detected or receive a single amongst a stacked cast and who eventually likeike a bird in a nest was able to take flight and soar above so many Survivor Ges. This is why Tony Vlacos is greatest survivor player. Oh and it has to start here Rob with one of the most basic arguments that I've seen been used around the internet for the better part of six years, which is Tony is not, of course, the only two time winner. He is one of only three deepending on we'll get to that part, I'm sure in this series as do you know how the international seasons get factored into it But I think some would argue Tony has maybe two of the most impressive two time winning seasons in Survivor history, notot only due to Kagaan, which had a very stacked cast, especially for a newbie season, but I think really the crown jewel in the two crowns he has accrued over the course of his time in the game is the fact that he was the winner all winners in the Super Bowl season of Survivor winners at warar He was the MVP and he was able to not only beat out what some would consider the most stacked cast in sururvivor history strategically. Some of the people we're going to be talking about in this very series We're sharing a beach with him But he was able to do it without getting a single vote thirty nine days. Yeah V very impressive win and I don't want to take anything away from Tony who has entertained me for years on the television show because I think I've always talked about Tony as being a unicorn of being somebody who is a dominant player, but also a very fun character. and I think throughout the history of Survivor, more often than not, your biggest characters are not always the best players and vice versa. many of Survivor's great players have been able to win the game by not being the center of attention and Tony often is. And so I think he is truly unique in that case. But I think that just because that he is one of Survivor's most electric players, I don't think that he's necessarily Survivor's best players. So I think that we could talk I guess let me discuss the last thing you brought up of that the crutch argument is Tony is the best player because he won the season of all the winners. And so thus because he won the season with all the winners and did so in a rather dominant fashion, he is inherently The best player And so I would say to that He did not a lot of the people we're talking about on this list, he actually played no part whatsoever in knocking. There's three other people that are on this list of Rob and Tony, I sry Rob and Parvety and Sandra. He played no part whatsoever in getting Rob out or getting Parvety out And actually, Sandra had concocted a plan to actually take him out Unbeknowing to Tony And then had it not been for Denise, thinking that Sandra was actually the bigger threat turning around on Denise Tony would have been out of this game pre merge. So I think that there's a lot that goes into any survivor win and because of that that I don't know necessarily if the cast of winners at war are It's like automatically the twenty best players in survivor history Well, I could see that argument, especially listen, there's been a lot of comments that have been talked about when it comes to the bootlist of a sururvivor winners at war you could argue Yes, while Tony did not directly impact those three people specifically going A lot of that was by design We're going to talk about the fact that Tony, I think was able to coin If not create himself a lot of tried and true strategies that still carry forward to this day with some other standout players that we see in the most recent seasons of the show and he brings up this idea of Hyena's and Lions. This is a concept that has been essentially in existence since your second season Rob it comes with every returning player season that Perception is reality, but perception outside of the game. is foundational to said, reality. And I think that he made a very conscious effort to say like, hey, look, look at these lions going. We need to work together. Let's surround ourselves with these threats when the game turns individual to make sure that, okay, we don't have a takeover from Wendell, from Adam from Jeremy from Michelle. Look at that post merge. who were the first two boots there? Wendell and Adam. Not to say that Tony directly influenced things and was like they weren't in danger before, but I'm going to steer the votes towards them. But I think Listen, we talk about this with Survivor all the time, going all the way back to Australian oututback We'll talk about a decision that Colby Donaldson makes that perhaps would be very similar to one that gives Tony his first win It was due in parts to this ethos that was sort of profligated throughout the season of like, We want a good person to win. We don't want the bad people to win And so the power of propaganda can help a lot in a game, especially like Survivor, when you're creating this society. And Tony being able to, I think, unite people around this idea of like Look at all these big names that are going out as fellow big names, don't it doesn't incentivize us to work together to try to turn, you know, keep out those that could take us out ordinarily goes to show that, yes, while Tony did not directly have a hand in defeating the other people on this list The other people on this list, specifically Boston and Rob, were sitting on that jury in absolute awe of what Tony was able to pull off I would say arguably, because they were standing on the jury. Yeah Fair points, Mike. I would push back on the Lions versus the hyenas because I think that lions versus hyenas I think was concepts of a plan, but I don't know if it was necessarily ultimately a plan that actually took hold. Yes, Wendell and Adam end up going out, but then Tyson is the next person a lion of lions. He wears a lion ring So I don't think that it necessarily was something that took hold in terms of I think it was a useful thing to get through a couple of votes. but I don't think it's necessarily that that Tony wasn't standing at the end of the game with all due respect with Lyons when we're at the final six and final seven and he's there with Sarah and Ben and Denise and Nick and Michelle and maybe that's is I'm not sure if that's six. but It's not that he engineered this plan to be able to get the all of the lions to the end of the game and there's a lot of hyenas there still Right, I would definitely agree with that. But I think in this case, it's not necessarily about keeping the entire pride. It's perhaps maintaining your pride by keeping one or two very specific lines. And I think we see this in the case with Jeremy. I think Jeremy is a fantastic example and it's so interesting because we'll get into this in a little bit as well as to, you know, you have Jeremy who of course coins this meat shield strategy in his own season. Tony has claimed that Jeremy took the concept from him. You know, he talks about in Kagayan, how he feels that Trish and Spencer were buffers for him, which is why he kept them later in the game to protect him. Tony is able to use Jeremy's cut own strategy kind of not necessarily against him here, but to his own advantage, where Jeremy is consistently on the chopping block again and again and again. And arguably, I mean, I can't say actually his most impressive move. That's another great thing about him is like he has several Hall of fame moves contained in one person But when he's able to pull off this four hundred threety two vote on Sophie, he is saving. Jeremy specifically to serve his own motive, which is to get rid of Sophie to suit his own game while simultaneously keeping in somebody who's going to get voted out the next episode to help protect Tony. Yeah, I don't know if we ever talked about this at the time and I know I'm making the counter argument against Tony, but you know, he starts with Lions and hyenas and that gets him through a little bit, but I think that the things are starting to get away from him where There is Sarah is getting stronger. She's got Kim. She's got Sophie and it seems like that there's like a women's alliance that he's not directly like they're not going for him, but he's losing power. And then he is able to shift things and he ends up doing the blindside of Sophie and Sarah then has no other option than to put this group back together. but really Jeremy who plays with Spencer now Ryman in second chance Jeremy in some ways like becomes the spencer here of okay that this is the useful ally that I'm not ultimately going to the end with this person, but when I have something that suits me, bring it to him and we'll work together to be able to get me to where I need to go Yes, that's a really good way to put it. and that's One of the things I really appreciate of Tony's game of many is I would argue he might be the most adaptable player in survivor history. Now we'll talk about that a little bit when it comes to obviously his ability to change his own game and change the perception of him in these initial stages of winners of award, which were so crucial considering that he ends up being a very early flame out in game changers. But I think even looking at that scenario, right where Tony He's observational for lack of a better term. This man would not have built several spy franchise levels of hideouts to peer in on what people are talking about if he was not an observational man. And so he's able to pick up on subtly changing dynamics. And yes, sometimes these are a little bit of a fal flags, you you bring up the rumblings of a women's alliance. It's one of the reasons why he gets rid of Jeffra in Kagayan is because he's like, okay, I see the women talking in the water. But I think it speaks to perhaps again, unlike some of the other people we're going to get into Tony is a very And sometimes that can veer on the side of too frenetic and too paranoid You can never accuse him of necessarily sitting idly by while he feels like an opportunity is there to grasp. He saw that, okay, Sophie's getting close with Sarah If there is something that is brewing, we could easily be outnumbered. And not only was he able to take Sophie out, but he was able to keep Sarah on his side. She was fuming at him. She literally told him, if I am voted out after this, I will never talk to you again in my life but he is able to carry so much favor through all this damage control and his assets. He offers publicly to play an idol on her the very next vote. And so he's able to find these ways to not only take these opportunities and strike while the iron is hot But then simultaneously able to like temper his tools for lack of a better term to make sure they're not bent from striking said iron It really is impressive how he's able to pivot. He is so quick. I think that that quickness gets him to be to make some mistakes also. I think the great thing about Tony is that he does make a lot of mistakes, but then he also is so quick that he sometimes then doubles back around and fixes the mistakes after he makes them I have a hard time with trying to reconcile that Sarah in that spot is somebody who he has this very close relationship with. It feels like I don't know what part of it is skill and what part of it is that he was just lucky that I don't know if there's any other person or survivor player in the world in that spot that forgives him and rejoins him that he just is so fortunate that another person who he has this relationship of how many years in between winners at war and Kag is a six year relationship with Sarah that somebody from his original season then goes on to play and wins another season and they have this extremely close relationship where they are talking for many, many years of preparing and I'm not even saying anything nefarious of pre game alliance, but just that he happens to have a person here who knows him to this degree outside of the game. it just is like Is that in any way peatable. I would say so. and look, I think that yes, of course these two have a very tight pree existing relationship, but that has to be an as risk on any returning player season. And in fact, we can talk about someone in Boston Rob who had those close ties and got earned in his second season because of that. that knife easily cut the other way. where Yes, Sarantntoni had this beautiful moment in fire making where she goes out and you know, she votes for him to win easily be a situation where she's like, screw you. We had this going and we said for years, we would go to the end. And why did you burn me again But it speaks to, I think a really understated facet of Tony's game is his sociability I think we are so focused on the strategic side and the hypergaming that he does And throughout Kagaan and Winnerss Awards to a certain extent, we sat there every week saying How is he getting away with this? Now, look, the interesting thing about Kag Gayon obviously is the fact that I don't think anyone was really ocking that much but the exception of interestingly enough, Sophie Clarkke, perhaps one of the most infamous podcasts in RAJP history of like, oh yeah, this guy definitely he's got his pulse on the game. He's set up to win no matter what. He was too cooky of a character This is a guy who was able to get done when he was able to It's easier to call it on the podcast than in real life. Exactly. But he was able to get done when he was able to get done because he has a general affability and likeability about him Yes, certainly he angered people from time to time Certainly he did. but I remember at the time, especially of Kaga Yon, there were so many comparisons between him and Russell Hands, whether it was The screenhog presence, whether it was the idlehound nature of him But there's a reason why Tony won, two jury votes and Russell did not because at the end of the day Even if people like Trish and Jeffrera felt and Sarah felt so incredibly burned by him They they still had something there. Tony still felt in a way and certainly it was deferential to them in a way on day thirty nine to make them feel like the relationship they had built was not a fabrication that truly they had built something together, ironically enough for the man who lied that he was a construction worker for the first two weeks of the game. Yeah. listen If you want to talk about Survivor Cag Gillon, that's one I think we can really point I put a lot of holes in the game that Tony plays in Survivor Cagon. but I just think that maybe we should finish talking through winners or more because I think that there is a lot more there still in terms of Tony and what he does He does not go to many pre merged tribal councils that so he is fortunate on that front where he goes to The one where Tyson gets voted out. I' sorry. amber threeree out of eight, which is, you know, especially for this modern day survivor is not nothing. Yeah. And then he also is dealing with in the final three going up against Natalie who is returning from the Edge of extinction where it is a season thirty eight where people have left right after that where people did not want to vote for a winner who came back from The edge of extinction I would say that, but also you have to look at the entire concept of the edge of extinction, which is, hey Go live with the jury. twenty four seven And as we saw in season thirty eight, Natalie came into the game in the finale essentially with a game plan of like this is what you have to do. getet not only make it to the final three to win and Chris was able to succeed on every single front there And Natalie did not because the chief thing that she was told to do, which she will tell everybody when she returns from the edge is Everyone thinks that Tony's doing everything and everyone else are his sheep It is her primary goal to get Tony out because she's being perceived as the number one threat to win this game and she cannot do it. He plays an idol at six, he wins immunity at five. He wins fire making at final four And she could have taken him into the fire making and she chose not to Exactly. And so yes You could say that maybe because of what happened with Chris Underwood, the jury was biased to not necessarily give the win to Natalie. but I still think inherently Tony was up against a concept that was fundamentally disadvantaged against him of like, hey, not only are these people that you voted out They got to go hang out with someone who has had no impact in their blindsides whatsoever and could have served as their comfort counselor, their therapist for the better part of thirty something days. to come in and has basically been spoonfed what she needs to say to win this game and he still beat her handily. Yeah. listen Tony did a great job in winners of Award. That it's very hard to say that he did not. I cannot honestly sit here and say that maybe it's maybe the most dominant and impressive win in survivor history. But I think that that alone does not make him the greatest player in sururvivor history I could certainly agree with that, but I think it's more so look One of the reasons why when people were talking about, okay, where's so and so, where's so and so is that we're looking at this Mount Rushmore plus Sa as sort of like a body of work And so I think that what Tony is able to bring across those two games is I almost paradoxically kind of a consistency yet variability Tony was able to operate out of this for lack of a better term, bag of tricks and be able to utilize so many things in his wheelhouse and both times somehow get away with it time after time, but then also have the ability again, to come in and change specifically the way he was seen by others. And yes, there is this strategy that often gets cited including by Rick Devans in season fifty of like, okay, he did not look for idols in the first part of Winners at W. He sat on his hands And that's all it took is because he knew that the first week of the game is going to be the hardest for him. because if people are just looking for others to get out, you don't really need a reason. You just have to look at, okay, preconceived notions, who's someone who could be a problem down the line based on previous body of work But Tony worked incredibly hard. and I would say it's one of the consumate examples of to do if you are a line, if you are one of the biggest names on a season coming into your third time out where he focused on ladders. He focused on Walking at a lower elevation than his competition. He was purposely shrinking himself. in the game so that he grew when the time was right. He had his own form of survivor puberty I suppose over the course of winners at Ward, all that stillt deliberate which I think is incredibly key. Obviously, I think a lot of the factors into survivor is luck is chance. as you talked about a little bit with some of your previous arguments. So I focus more so on what are the choices that these players make that can be used to influence their game? And I think what Tony was able to do in that first part, which was to really minimize, hey, listen, I'm just a goofy guy who's here for. Yeah remember exactly. He ends up a ve she almost votes him out in that episode with Sandra But like, okay, Listen, I'm the guy who's running around making llama noises. It's fine. You want look at what Tyson's doing. Look at what all these other players are doing I'm no threat right now I think was notot only what he needed to do in that moment, but an incredibly impressive display of Again, the blueprint of what a lot of these big names could and should do in future seasons. I just wonder if a season of all winners, a season of huge targets is the only possible season that Tony could have won on a return back to Survivor Yeah, I mean, listen, we saw a game and is could you spin that in any way of saying that like he could only win against a field of gigantic threats in any other season that he plays He'd be taken out I that When it comes to sururvivor game changers, because I think this is going to be the key example, right? This is going to be well the in the perhaps one of the biggest stars in scrub season in survivor history, Tony was a star and that star burned bright. it burned hot and it burned out by the end of that two hour premiere But Tony has expressed, you know that one of the way initially the reason why he came out of the game so hot was because he was very suspicious of pre gaming that he had not really had a lot of interactions in the survivor. I didn't know that Yeahes, Sarah was perhaps the only other person that he had really talked to in the time since Kageayan who was on this cast. And oncet you know it, she was on a completely other tribe this time. And so I think that Tony got in his own head about Okay, if they're already building stuff. Yeah. And I think that at least the way he espoused it to me, the whole spy bunker thing was a way of him almost doing the beta version of what he would do in winners at War, which is like, I'm going to play myself up as the court jester No, don't worry. Tony's aloof. Tony's not a big player. He's not he's burying himself in the sand. What kind of Rube does that? He's totally out of the game. You don't need to worry about him And so while I do I do think that ultimately yes, his reputation came to precede him there, but I think that was able to allow him to workshop and come back into a setting. and yes You have to play with the people that you play with. This is something that we're getting into get into certainly when it comes to the Boston Rob argument, right as to quality of cast perhaps when it comes to these wins. But I do think that if Tony were to come back, let's say it's not winers at war, let's say it's like winners versus non winners versus free jury I still think that Tony is able to utilize some of those tactics that he learned the hard way. in game changers put together a perception and a tactic style that would honestly allow him to bury himself amongst the dirt and earth around him and be a little obscured while other players are stepping at it a bit more around him. A lot of you know, I lost my dad a while back and every now and then talking to my mom, she'll tell me a story about something he said or did that I never knew. And I always wish that I was able to learn more about my dad Story Worth is something this Father's Day. It's a great gift that you could give to your dad that will let your dad be able to tell you all the stories and answer all of the questions that you have for him. Storyworth sends your dad a question every week about his life. and I'm a dad. 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When it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is a real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there So Tony does have this super dominant win in winners at War that I'm trying, but it is a little bit difficult to be able to like find the holes and poke the holes into Tony's game of winners at war. But Mike, if you're the greatest of all time, I think that there was a lot of growth that happens in between Kagon and then ultimately game changers And Tony learns a lot of lessons along the way. but Can you be the greatest of all time if you have seasons that required you to grow a lot from I think so. I think so absolutely. Is it a finished product or is it a body of work I think it's more impressive if it's a body of work to be completely honest and something that we're gonna get into I think towards the end, because I do want to talk about when it comes to this greatest of all time, I think obviously gameplay is going to be the view first and foremost, but I do think that narrative also plays a part. I think that one of the reasons why you know these five players are the five that we're talking about is because their stories have made them larger than life figures amongst seven hundred and fifty one of them And so I think that's what makes the mythos of Tony even larger being is the sense that okay, here is a guy who plays fast and sloppy and was able to pull out sloppy. Do you see when he ate the pizza? Oh my God, yes, no one can forget about that. He was just inhaling through his nose Yeah Oh my Godd. ye. it was it was a wild time. We do not eat pizza like that in Jersey. just I all who did that No, unfortunately not for anyone who gets pizza with me in the future. But he somebody who is able to showcase Again, the ability to change Which we can certainly talk about other people in this. I don't want to keep mentioning Boston Rob, but I think one of the larger criticisms against it is like he plays the same way every single time. we can not talk about Rob what it's his podcast. Let's keep this focus on Tony. I' go back to Cag Gillon because I think there are a lot of things that we could talk about from Survivor Cag Gillon, where I get that it's one of the most entertaining, if not the most entertaining win in survivor history in terms of all of the wild swings that Tony makes. but I think he gets a lot of breaks along the way in this season, including a new old twist that resulted in Tony having two idols at a certain point in the game an idol where he could there was no way that the player the players would have needed to really have some sort of like galaxy brain idol flush and ultimately some one of them is ultimately going home after Tony plays this idol and also One of the things that has always not sat well with me is that Tony has an idol that expires at the final five and tells everybody that the idol expires at the final four. On Big Brother, you would not be allowed to do this. You would not be allowed to use production to say like, o no actually this goes until four and they and from what I understand, I think people like, well, is Tony's idol still going? L, we can't tell you. We don't know. You'll have to You'll have to vote outountain see Yeah, but I think that's a credit to Tony's game. That' actually going to be one of the biggest feathers in the cap that I was ready to come in here with, Rob is because yeah, as you mentioned, one of the many cardinal differences between Big Brother and Survivor, which Serei herself can attest to is yes, as was literally talked about over a loudspeaker multiple times, you are not allowed to use production as a strategy Tony is one of the primary figures I can think of across twenty six years of survivor actively weaponized who was able to say, as you mentioned, yeah, I've got this brand new thing and it expires at four. We see this come all the way back around as recent as Rizzo in Survivor forty nine claimed that his idol expires at six when it actually does at five. And yes, on the one hand, I think again, one of the big one of the big arguments people can make against Tony and Kag was like, okay, because of the Tyler pereriidol, he wasn't able to be voted out too which I say Aing one of these people any point in time could easily just fabricate the idea of a Tyler Perry idol. Yes, there is the actuality that he would he would have survived if he had been voted out and that maybe gave him a certain looseness to play with the game. which should I say first, this guy is as loose as like a, you know twelve minute cookling Guinie, Like he was loosey goosey to begin with. Its pretty loosey goosey. But like what would have stopped Tony? from having the regular idol that he found and claim, hey, this is a special idol, which I will, you know automatically notullifies any votes after they are read and I get to use it until the final four. He was able to showcase how An asset, any card that he can be dealt, like the greatest magician, he can always float around in his fingers and turn into an ace of spades. I think it actually should be a credit to Tony's game that not only was he able to find this brand new idol, but actively weaponize it to give himself even more armor than it was gonna to give him in the first place. He has a lot of things that are not great in this game. We go back to the beginning of his game and we have everything with Sarah with A you a cop? No, I'm a construction worker. It's a really bad lie He comes back, he circles around. He finally does admit that he's a cop. Sarah then ends up welcoming him back They come out of that and then he ends up with a new group and with Trish and with LJ and Jaffra and Is it is it who's the other person there in the blue? Yeah. And then has the big celebration after the challenge of celebrating top five baby very loudly where then Sarah is out. on Tony and then Ultimately, if it is not for Trish at the merge that Sarah Lacina is going to u be the cast of deciding vote against his side. I mean, that merge vote is obviously I would say I wouldn't even say very indicative about the season because as we're going to showcase, as much as that line might be drawn in the sand Tony is consistently playing hopscotch across said line. He has not necessarily takaking this as, okay, it is top five, baby. Yes, he has admitted. My God, was that a verbal slip up. But that's the other impressive thing about Tony's game. And listen, you can judge about the fact that like The greatest players survivor player of all time wouldn't have said this to begin with But that's Tony. That's who he is. This is a man who lives and dies by verbal diarrhea. But it's the emodium you take afterwards, Rob. I think he said he pooped his pants after that vote also It was after the LJ vote but he his pants. So o no, that was the I think it was the Morgan vote because I think that he had Almost gotone some v thosees ep. So, I think that Tony is someone who is able to make messes but has the foresight to not only know he has to clean it up, but the ability to do so as well. And yes Sarah was going to stick other groups But First off, Tony did have an idol there and him and LJ do a little bit of the idol. He plays the idol for LJ. LJ plays the idol for him that would have protected him there. and he knew that him and LJ were in trouble as well. And yes, that was a misight on their part because Jeffy would have been voted out, but I don't think Tony would have been the next on the chopping block because as we've seen, especially with him and Sarah in years to come Even if Tony and Sarah are on the opposite side of two votes They didn't, I mean, I don't think necessarily it would be okay, DOA, they're never working together. againgain, as we see with Tony and Trish in this season, he has the ability to be able to prepare relationships for perhaps some faux pas that he said. you know, he basically had the taste of toes in his mouth the entire time in Kag Gayon because he consistently put his foot in his mouth But it matters what you do afterwards And I feel like Yes, Trish was able to sway Cass over. But that could also speak towards, you know, Trish's investment in her relationship with Tony, the fact that she felt so committed to that side and you know why that happens because Tony decides to abdicate to her and blindsy Cliff Robinson in the very first ve he cast in Survivor history. That is planting the seed for a relationship that is going to germinate and blossom all the way on day thirty nine when she is Dowing at him from the jury bench, but still gives her him her vote at the end of the day. He does catch a break also that Lindseay quits after the Cliff Robinson vote. So that's one less person who's not working with him, who's just out of the game and not working against him It's very true. And you know, the more you think about it, as much as Trish kind of helps lead the Cliff vote. This is something that Tony had been putting in the works for a while. You know, onene of the reasons why he ends up building the OG Sy Shack is because he feels like Cliff is starting to gain some footing, some very large footing for the large man that he is in the tribe. He's the one who goes to Sarah and flat out lies being like Oh yeah, Cliff and Woo are planning to get you out. And it's able to be so convincing that Sarah tries to throw that challenge to try to get Cliff out in that moment. So I don't think that the Cliff boot really springs out of nowhere. And even though maybe from Tony's perspective, it was not at the timing that he thought. I think he really did want to get rid of LJ in that moment. It speaks to the work he had done prior and the relationship he had started to cultivate with Trish that he said, Okaykay, let me do this thing for you, accomplish a goal that I wanted to do a week ago and make sure that we are locked in together. We are co conspirators that are going to be rider d until it gets to a certain point where he more so emphasizes the die part of that that tosim. Yeah. And She really comomes at him hard at the final Tbal cououncil. And she also votes for him And I think that Hononey, it's so interesting. and the more you think about his job, the more it makes sense that Tony was able to weaponiz so much body language over the course of his time on Survivor. Again, I mentioned the quote he said before about walking purposely on a lower slope to try to appear smaller, to make it seem like people had higher status over him. But watch that final tribal council in Kagayan Again, Tony is sitting Punched over diminutive. It's almost like he's preemptively doing like the I come to you hat in hand, but it's not that he's any sort of like spineless slug during that Tist speech She goes in basically being like Tell me it was worth swearing on your dead father's grave for you to make it as far as you did. And he looks her dead in those bright blue Bostonian eyes and he says Yes, because he knows that's what she needs to hear in that moment. that as much as he can be apologetic about what he was able to do, if he tries to shrug off everything and say that it wasn't worth it That would go against everything that he had accomplished to that point and it also helps that One major thing we need to get into, Rob is the fact that Tony was in the frreickaking final two Yeah in the first place. Yeah. So Have ever talked about what if it was to fininal three You know, it's the only season of Survivor where it's a final two instead of a final three Does that help Tony that ultimately he gets Woo to take him to the end? Is there any world in which Does the outcome change if it's a final three I feel like there was a lot of talk even before the finale of how Wu was sort of perceived as Tony's lackey, then I think well, obviously him taking Tony to the end was the nail in the coffin I don't think that like This perception came out of nowhere. You know, that that it doesn't get born overnight Weird season and weird jury because it's like you know what actually? becausecause Lindsey quit, Tony was able to make that happen. So Lindseayy is maybe the one that Tony owes the most amount of money because I don't think that Trish is voting for cast. I mean, I don't know what Jeffrera and Jeremiah are doing ultimately I don't think Spencer and Tasha are voting for cast. I mean, I mean, Morie Morgan at Tbal Council is like I use my you know flirtatious wiles to get people to do what you need to do. Tony, you are far from that. How are you able to actually get this done? Like she was clearly in awe of what he was able to do. So I think thats he would have been fine going up against either one of them, if not both of them. Yeah And I know it's a testament to Tony that he's able to get Woo to do this, but was this so much that Tony with playing great or is Woo making a very bad move? Is it I know it's two sides of the same coin. I know, I know. But would any other of seven hundred fifty one survivor players or seven hundred fifty other survivor players made this decision I mean, I think so given that they have to have the right argument given to them. Let's go back. to Colby and Tina and maybe Colby had reasons outside of the show You want to have a career in Hollywood Who knows if he would be hosting top shot for five seasons if he makes the quote unquote villous move. and takes Keith to the end But If I remember correctly, the edit of the finale had Woo at the final four saying or before the immunity challenge saying It would be stupid of me T same Tony to the end could have possibly changed between that confessional and that vote for cat Tony happened Tony has said that he worked on Woo K on hours. Yeah and just continually gave him the pitch that he needed in this moment, which is Think about what you're going to pitch to the jury You are someone who prides themsel on this loyalty. on this honor would a man of honor and loyalty cut his number one ally at the final three. Yes, this argument may not have worked on ninety nine percent of survivor players, but guess what? If ninety nine percent of survivor players were in this situation, Tony might have a different argument. them. This speaks to the relationship he was able to cultivate with Woo as well. This entire post merge was dictated by Tony not only flipping back and forth, but flipping back and forth alongside Woo. This is a guy he kept in the loop every single vote in the game. Clearly he engendered someome form of trust to this guy that Woo did feel like that was an argument to listen to in that moment, despite all the logic speaking against him Let me bring up something that I think is Tony's Achilles heel. And what I would make the biggest case for in terms of why I think Tony is not the goat of Survivor, I think that Tony's Achilles heel is his temperament And I know that in Winners at War, he does a really great job of really he doesn't have one moment where he loses his cool. but It's still A thing and we see it on great display in Svivor Kag on. We see it certainly as he's going down in Svivor Game changers when when things are not going his way And if people are in an argument with him, we have seen where Tony can lose his schoolool and is able to He sometimes will lose control of his emotions. We see him raising his voice and we see it to great effect with Cass. She's talking Lamma And that I think is a part of his repertoire. I don't think that it's intentional. I'm sure that maybe you can say, well, actually this helped him in this instance or this instance, but I think that if we're going to in a laboratory, create the greatest survivor player of all time. I think that He short fuse or shorter fuse than most and the ability and capacity on multiple occasions to fly off the handle I think would not be a trait we would want in the greatest survivor player of all time. I think we see it a little bit even in the Taders. but I would also say This is where we get into the sticky situation of how much of that is Tony the player versus Tony the person You know, how much of that is just a part of who he is fundamentally. And for what it's worth You are bringing up, yes, a couple of times where he writes his voice and does ridiculous things in the heat of the moment. Those are like two of the only times He does that I actually think that Tony is like more of a conflict aiverse person than we may realize. like going back to actually the the I don't know why we keep going back to like the Lindsey of it all, but I remember actually in the wake of that cliff for Robinson Boe, there was a big bruhaa between Trish and Lindsey and Tony is actually trying to quiet the storm. He's trying to really bring everything down. He's trying he's not he's not a Russell Hs. He's not like a got them where I want them. Now I'm going to burn all of Lizzy's clothes to make sure she quits the game two times over He is someone who act who is trying to enforce some sort of status quo. And I think the times that he does raise his voice with times he does get emotional Yes, those are weaknesses, but I don't think it's done as any sort of tactic. And I think it's just part of his own personality. And I think it's again, to his credit that those aren't things that drive people away necessarily. Like I didn't necessarily see Kas being like, that's it. I'm never going to work with Tony again because of this. Tony's vulnerable at the final four and cast doesn't vote against it. Maybe it's because of this this super idol thing But it's not like she was permanently turned off. of working with him. I think it goes part and parcel with again, this kind of outlandish persona that Tony has that Yes, he was loud. He was in her face in that moment They had been living with a man who was ladderered in their face for the better part of, you know over a month at that point. Yeah. I think that The social game, I think is not ideal for what you would want in terms of the greatest survivor player. and I do think he has come a long way, but I still feel like even an Australian survivor that I felt like that he was you know, getting a little short with some of the people when he felt like that things were not going his way I mean, we could certainly talk about, I mean Maybe we'll set this up as like a carpplanch rule, Rob. Should we be bringing Australian survivors these? I think and with all due respect to Jeremy, that Jeremy, who would tell you that Tony is the goat. So I think we' releved into this conversation I think that Australian survivor is certainly It's survivor. I think we're watching people play the game that while it's not necessarily the same rules. I think it's almost like if somebody was, you know, doing incredible things in Canadian football. I think it's still like it close enough, right Well, I think especially in this example, it would be like Okay, if Brett Far plays some years in Canadian football, you encompass that into the overall discussion, right? We are talking about these people as survivor players that app to American survivor and Australian survivors. And you're talking about who's the greatest quarterback And you know, if somebody who does something amazing in another league, it's still being a quarterback What I will say is, you know, this is maybe one of those examples where these preconceived relationships goes to hurt Tony. I mean, certainly listen, these are small tribes. These are tribes of seven And after Rob Bentalay is voted out You know, you look at the control that Pverty and Serei were able to have to their credit. We'll certainly get into that with their respective podcasts where they sort of had their pick of the litter, right? They were in tight with Cass. they were in tight with Lisa. And so Okay, it could be one of the guys there. And I think that Tony was saw the writing on the wall almost like game changers qu, right tried to put up a bit more of a fight and yah, made him a bit more orderary I don't think that he necessarily thought like, okay, if I help these relationships, it will keep me along. I think this was a case again, going back to game Changers where he's like I clearly am much more of a known commodity with no offense to the sururvivor Finland players or fans out there But I do think that Because, you know, circumstances I luck The cast that you live alongside is a major part in any performance that happens across Survivor. And that was just a very weird set of circumstances for Tony I think about Tony and I think about when we've talked about the game from winners at War. it really is impregnable. And that it's very hard to nitpick anything from winners Aar. I think that there are certainly things that you can point to in Survivor Kagon where it was electric, but it was far from perfect. that there were mistakes were made Mistakes were corrected. There were breaks, like any great survivor player that there was some luck along the way To me And I've always talked about this idea of and maybe we're getting closer with AI, of the ability to run the simulation of if you play the seasons a thousand times, if you put these people together in these different scenarios, I don't know How many times Tony comes up as the winner in a lot of these seasons. And especially I do feel like that the game is shifting away from Tony. Tony won in season forty, but that might have been the last season he could have won Hm That's interesting. because Well, I guess Obviously his very unique personality and his skill set makes him this once in a lifetime type of player You know, I was thinking about the legacy of Tony And I do feel like so much of things that were in his wheelhouse and things that he helped, if not bring onto the show, just sort of make mainstream. Like I would say you, Johnny Fairpllay are key examples of people who were able to utilize a post merge strategy of I'm going to go where the numbers are conducive to me in that particular round But I think what Tony was able to pull off and win gave a lot of other players permission to say Okay, this is something that is a little bit more normalized. This is a strategy that can be utilized moving forward and not necessarily be castigated. not necessarily be something, being an idol fiend and being able to hunt a peck for things. The fact that Tony did win, yes, perhaps was due to an incredibly unique set of circumstances two times over. But I think if you dissect the facets of his game There's so many easily replicable things that he did that we have seen very successfully in other players' games as well. Yeah, when we take a look at the evolution of the show and no better person to talk to about that than Mike and of course, obviously, something we're talking about here in the tribe and I've spoken available wherever books are sold Tony really does as Survivor is coming out of its Russell era, that Tony comes to the scene and really does help usher in the big moves era, which I think that we could safely say, the big moves era of Survivor, you know, is from season twenty eight through season forty and sort of like Tony book ends this big moves era of survivor. And obviously with the new era, they move to a scenario where, you know, the survivor players, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily a era defined by big moves. tyifically like big moves And people like, okay, I can't make big moves until I got wait till the end, keep my powder dry and make my one resume move at the end as opposed to let me go for the big moves. but I think that Tony does usher in that era and he does to greatreat success win in season twenty eight and season forty and season forty might be Best win In sururvivor history I just don't think it automatically makes Tony the best player in Survivor history I would certainly agree with that. I think, again, so much is dependent on the people you're playing with that just because you get two dubs doesn't mean, okay, this means that you automatically have to be the best. But I think what I've been talking about this entire podcast that I'll continue to talk about is because It wasn't even specifically the fact that he had the one, the two million dollars check being cashed but the moves that he made to get there. Again, Tony is an incredibly unique persona I think the things he was able to utilize are kind of bread and butter strategic tactics think can be found in some of the best survivor players. And when you add on top of it, the fact that this man is an objectively ridiculous person Yet is somehow able to pull off these moves perhaps in spite of that whichich again, he can't help. It's just who he is. you know him. I know him. That's just kind of who Tony is in real life on of showcases that he he's able to be able to put forward even more more impressive, I think performance from the idea that All of this is happening fromrom the man who's building ladders and making lllama noises in the corner Mike, is there anything else to say about Tony and his legacy Yeah, I mean, I think again, I think legacy is a really good thing to talk about here because I do think yes, greatest player of all time should be conducive to the work we actually see them do on the beach, but I do think there should be a lot that should be discussed as to like how did they affect survivor moving forward And Tony has felt like, and you can speak to this listen, Survivor Cugan's a very special season for you, I know, in multiple ways I think it was for a lot of people. Tony says that he believes he gave Survivor the shot in the arm notot the shine in the dark that are needed in that moment. I don't think it's a coincidence that Kagayan was one of the first seasons to show up on Netflix. And it's so weird to think about that, Rob because Think about all the fans who found Survivor through that season, all the future players who found Survivor. through that season unintentionally The chaos this man, the controlled chaos, I should say, this man was able to create has been able to, I think Read this this style of gameplay And I would say also, honestly, this idea of authenticity I haveve talked so much about how I think Marianne is one of the most impactful players in the new era because what she was able to showcase was not necessarily anything new from a gameplay perspective, but more so like Hey, on paper, you think there might be certain personality types that could never win survivor, but this goes to show that If you have the skill set can do so no matter how quote unquote weird you can be. Tony is one of the consumate examples of that. I would say he is the biggest character ever win survivor, a personality That is so overver the top Everyone in their mother was saying, This ridiculous man is never going to get anywhere near The million dollar prize and he was able to do it two times over And he was able to do it in a way that did not necessarily feel like he was straying from who he was. He talks about this in the Final Tbal cououncil of Winners at War. I came in here as Tony the person Tony the player. I had you get to know me I was being vulnerable. I think Tony, yes, pl from a place of of having fun and making these big moves and making these big flashy things happen operating from a place of who Tony is as a person. And I think it g people a lot of license to be able to operate from I wouldn't even say a lack of restraint. But I think an ability to sort of satiate your survivor I to trust your instincts and be like, I want to do this thing. so I am going to go do this thing and get reward handsle me for it as an example. So even though of the group we're talking about over the course of these top five, Tony by far has the smallest tenure on Survivor. Everyone else debuted, you know, in these single digies and teen seasons. Tony debuted all the way in season twenty eight I think that the impact he had on a lot of modern day survivor discourse Kick some of them in terms of what his play style and his success has brought to the game and the show in general I'll always appreciate Tony for so many things. but as you alluded to In twenty fourteen, I had just started doing Robin's podcast full time. I just started up on Patreon and it was a time in the first Brains versus Beauty versus Brawn We're coming off the seasons, a run of like a lot of returning player type seasons, but this was the first newew player season, strictly new player season in a while. And Tony was such a big driver of discourse where things would happen that would be crazy on the show. And I think people went online looking to discuss survivor. And I think a lot of people in the real time discovered survivor in twenty fourteen or discovered survivor online conversation because of what Tony was doing. And so I think that he was a great muse for so much of the early days of Rob is a podcast and really did help to foster I P peopleople looking for somewhere to go to talk about this lunacy that they were watching on their show Yeah. and I think it was able to showcase to people again, like What survivor what's capable of. And again, I don't think that like Tony is responsible for the entire immensely positive reception of Kaga Yon. I think it's on the backs of all eighteen people for just the incredible TV content they were able to create. but I almost feel like Tony is emblematic of what Kag Gyon is, right? This like comedic Hey, Yodic somehow like completely controlled for Sona. whoo is able to episode after episode were' left at the end wondering, how did this happen And there we were sitting at the end of fourteen episodes this from New Jersey walking away a million dollars richer and wondering, how was he able to do this? And then we did the exact same thing six years later when he somehow did it again without receiving a vote against him with now two million dollars on top of that He shouldn't have said that Stehven had poop on his glasses. That That wasn't right. He shouldn't have said that. You know what? That's probably the biggest mark against him. Tony? If there's one thing I dislike about your game is for life then got to sleep overver. Yeah Yeah, again, this is an example. Maybe I think actually that's the worst mess Tony had to clean. Everything else. everyone was fine. likeike, Okaykay, Tony we'll work with you the next time. That's the one time it's like okay, Tony, that's not a good cover. And he doesn't know how many days are in the week. He told Jeremy that it's there's no weekends on Survivor O weekends will count Well that's he was hustling. He says that the final tribal cououncil winners of Warars' like I played survivor twice once in the day and once at night. So maybe he was just showing that he's always grinding. Yeah, he made fires deliver idols at night. I mean, he is maybe the hardest working person in survivor. So is Tony the greatest player of all time? We will leave that for you to decide ultimately when we have a vote at the end of this series. But Mike, let's look ahead to somebody who has a lot in common with Tony. That's Sandra that if Tony is the king, she is the queen and they are both the two time winners of US Survivor And so Mike, next time on our podcast, we will discuss the legacy of Sandra the S Twine is Sandra the Goat, okay Once again The way it's on my screen, I'm on the left, You're on the right. Are you comfortable with Rob his heads Mike is Tails for who will be making the case for Sandra on next week's podcast Rob, I am always happy to represent the rear end, whether it comes to real life or this coin. So please Tails never fails. Okay, here we go. And It's heads. Okay. Let's switch positions. So I will make the case for Sandra Diazwine as the greatest player of all time. and hopefully we'll not talk too much about Gats in any other way, as we talk about is Sandra the goat next week I'm really excited about this because something I've certainly come across in my discourse in various searches that's like who's the greatest player of all time is certainly when comparing these these two winning seasons and now we'll incorporate poverty into the mix as well. Obviously. there's been talk about like Okay. what were what's more impressive Tony's two wins or Sandra's two wins. So I'm glad that we had these two back to back because I think We can do A direct example maybe would be tough because again, they were two very different play styles, but considering that these were the first two players to win two times. As you said, arguably the queen and king of Survivor I'm really excited to do a deep dive into what Sandra was able to accomplish to seemingly do the impossible and become a two time winner and how much that factors into the criteria of whether or not she should be the greatest of all time. Okay What else do you have work going on these days U So I am just, you know, biting my time until Big Brother starts. You can check out all the other Michigos I'm doing at parade. com some survivor stuff. I of course got the chance to talk with well at the point this is coming out. you'll have gotten the court the chance to talk with Jonathan Penner at the Tribecca Festival because there'll be that big panel for fifty seasons Survivor that you're doing with Kyle and Camilla and Tini and the aforementioned Sereree, But I'll be covering that. I think it did at this point I will have done an interview with Boston Rob as well. I got to get his thoughts about the finale and everything that went down. Lots of stuff happening, even though this podcast is very clear that a sururvivors' flame is not extinguished. Much like Tony's there's always little fires that are being built even when it seems to light away this summer. Exactly. So we are happy to keep everything lit and hopefully it is lit over here on RJP. So it's pretty lit over on a brand new series that we have coming up this month. We asked the fans to vote for which Ore season should we rewatch. It was in the hands of the fans and they said they wanted us to go back to Aubrey's first season.. starting Monday on RHAP, I proudly present to you a series we're calling C Fing wrong. And so every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, Chappelle and I will bring you a new episode of reewatch three a week of Survivor Co wrong I am so excited about this. Co wrong is one of my favorite survivor seasons of all time. Yeah. Absolutely love That was the Netflix season too, right It was for a brief port. I think it was in like the third wave of Netflix. So I'm so excited for you guys to bring Iember we're talking about one Brains Bra B beauty season and now we get to see its's very different spiritual sequel, but I'm so happy that we got the chance to do this already. I think this is Such a fun concept. I had a lot of great fun. You made a lot of great points, Mike. I have you really did a great job. Well, it had helped repepresented Tony Well That means a lot. because yeah, I mean, obviously,s it's it's a tough thing to do. and I think you brought up some good counterpoints as well, but I mean when you talk about a man who purposely showcased, you know all the stuff he was able to do in front of a jury who makes at one point you said, helps someone make the worst decision in survivor history. It's a massive body of work, much like Tony's body proper. So hopefully I was able to help him flex and stunt on then boys and then girls. Yeah. You ever see pictures of young Tony I remember not, not youang Wu Hang, the person who went to finally de with him, but I'm trying to remember. I feel like that was a thing It wasn't during Kagaon, right? When did those pictures go viral? I think that maybe it might have been during Kagayon. I mean, maybe it' shortly thereafter Oh yeah, you know what? I think it might have been. Now I have a picture of it brought up right now God, I can't unse it. I mean, you were making wrestling references at the very beginning. This feels like a wrestling headshot that you would see at like WCW in it's Heyday. All right, thank you so much for joining us. We'd love to hear what you have to say in the comments. Okay, whether you agree or disagree, just remember, please be kind and let's keep a friendly discourse going Even in the comments, thank you so much for joining us. Take care of a goodood one. Bye.