Final Thoughts on Murder and Fiction

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Alright, sit back, relax, and enjoy another wonderful episode of whatever shitting podcast you have downloaded. People are a funny bunch. For every careful Colin, you've got your laid back Lisa. So when it comes to cash ices, at Leeds Building Society it's not one size fits all. You've got that person who's happy to lock their money away, and that person who wants to keep their options open. You've got that person who likes to chat it through, and that person who already knows exactly what they want. So whatever kind of saver you are, as a witch recommended provider for savings, we might just have the cash Isa for you. Leeds Building Society. Visitors online or in bran ch . Morning babes. Morning love. Fancy Fancy a cup of tea. Want to quit smoking? Fear not. The power to quit is in your hands . Introducing the free NHS Personal Quit Plan. With a quit date planner and advice offer You're more likely to quit with the right help. Search smoke free for your free plan and get the power today . Hello my finest of friends and rat fans, welcome to Rahalastaba Book Club. Uh this week I have been reading and literally I finished this um like an hour and a half before this recording. So it is literally this week. I've been reading I'm Not the Only Murderer in My Retirement Home by Fergus Craig. Sounds like a familiar idea. Here he is, Fergus Craig. How are you doing? I'm good. How are you? Uh I am all right actually, yeah, I'm feeling okay. In yourself? Yeah, no, I'm very good in myself and now I'm feeling quite uh s quite dapper and dapper spruced up. I can't think of the word. I'm all right. You're fine. I'm okay. I'm fine. I'm not sure if I don't we consider it. Um so look, this is I mean this I wasn't quite sure what to expect 'cause I've read your oh you've of course been on the book club before. We talked about your M Martin Fishback novels. Um but this is written by you. Yeah. So this is a this is a slight departure from the previous one. Do you wanna t do wanna t do you wanna remind us of the f the Fishback novels and uh what the idea of those was and then we'll move on to this new Yeah, it's sort of complicated to explain, although it's actually very simple. I did this character online, this sort of um uh pompous middle-class dad character, and as a sort of side project of that, he he was this character I said was writing crime novels. And then as a result of that I ended up getting uh a book deal to write two crime novels of based based on his uh detective uh detective Roger LeCare, this sort of Exeter based um detective. But they were very much spoofs. Yes. So every line was a joke really. Yes. So um what I've tried to do in this book is transition from deliberately writing shit to trying to write well. So it's still a funny crime novel. Yes. There isn't a joke every sentence. Yes. It's the odd chapter without a joke, probably. I think that's true. Um so it's still funny, it's still light, but it's it's me writing it. So it's you writing it, which is it is a big I mean it's sort of it's got a little bit of a gish because I wasn't it feels like it's going to be more parodic than it is. It is obviously like a parody of uh a popular vein and a popular author, uh Richard Osman, who even gets a mention in the in the book, I notice you do mention . Yeah, I don't see it I don't see it as a parody or a spoof of Richard Osmond. It's not of his writing style. I mean and it sort of isn't it isn't I thought it'd be more of a parody , but it's based on the idea. It's a riff. It's basically what it what if you know there's the phenomenon of cozy mysteries, one of the chief uh sort of iterations of that is retirement homes. What if you were to throw a serial killer into that mix? What if you were to sort of stretch the genre? Yes. I mean and it's sort of you know, it's parodic in the idea that everybody in the pr in in the home turns out to have been uh either a major criminal or a major detective or a major politician uh which is po you know, it does make sense within the it's an expensive retirement home they're living in, so it makes sense that it would attract the the kind of best and the richest people. Basically, uh a Carol Quinn , a retired serial k iller leaves prison. She's been to prison for 35 years. She gets out. She arrives at a luxury retirement home. Of course, early on, someone gets murdered. Everyone assumes that she did it, so now that she has to solve the murder to clear her name, what makes that trickier is that as you say, everyone else in the retirement home is a retired sort of investigator of some sort or home secretary or whatever. Yeah. So I mean that you know and it it is and you say there aren't jokes in every chapter. It's there are lots of jokes and it is still very funny, it's still recognizably a Fergus Craig creation. But it does you know, it I was interested 'cause it did you know it is well written, so I wasn't expecting to be well written, having read your own work. Well you deliberately write badly. So it's the it's it's you know, it is nice to see you writing uh novel. I mean at times it just does feel like it's it this you know, it diff it feels like the the a Richard Osman book in in some ways. So it's you know it's kind of quite interesting to to take that that formula and mess around with it, I suppose is what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, trying to sort of like riff on it, I guess. I g I I sort of I'll be absolutely honest. It was my editor at the publisher who we were talking about cozy mysteries and he had the thought about a serial killer. Yeah . And um so I sort of approached it as a sort of like, well, how am I gonna do this? Yeah. So it it sort of evolved as it went along. So I sort of um I thought, well, it if it's gonna be a serial killer, I still want them to be likable. Yes. They have to be likable. And that's and at first I was like, Well, well I'm gonna write book about a serial killer, I should watch like documentaries about serial killers on Netflix and stuff, which I didn't like serial killers are horrible. Really like I say some of the worst. And then so I thought well that's probably there's no need to go there. So how is she gonna be like a and of course it had to be a woman 'cause I thought that sort of helps remove it from the serial killers in our minds as we're reading. And she has to kill people who she has to have had killed people who deserved it. Yeah . So um I sort of got to know her as I wrote and got to know the other people as they wrote. So it it's not it is retired people in a retirement home, so it's not and it is a mystery. So it's not a surprise that there's a bit of crossover Yes. But you know, I'd like to think it's a distinct. I mean it's it's it's a different idea. It obviously, you know, evolves from the other idea, and it's kind yeah, I don't know. I suppose I just thought I expected to be a different book than is and that isn't to say that this isn't better than the what I expected. It probably is better than what I expected because I thought oh well you know, that this'll be a it I thought it might be more sort of airplaney knockabout sort of let' lets's let's n let's take the piss out of the genre but it that's what I suppose I'm saying. It's you know, y it's an attempt, a successful attempt I have to say, to um write a genuine detective well mystery novel, uh and you know, so there's a murder novel and find out you know and then there's a who d and the who done it aspect I think with Osman's books is always too convoluted to possibly guess, I think, whereas I think this this one there's some clues and the story right there's some clues and there's some theories and it's and it's fun to try and work out who might have done it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I see it as in my head, I sort of thought the best way to So if sh like Sean of the Dead is a zombie movie, right? Mm-hmm. They didn't invent zombie ru movies. George M Romero did, right? Yes. So that's a sort of riff on the zombie movie, but it's still a zombie movie. I do. You know, and that's it it's it's very you know, that it it really works as that and it just but I think having when you come to something from and you've been and you you know p someone's done something else, it's interesting to see what the next thing is, I guess. And then you you know, and you have have to to have you you'll come with some preconceptions if you're a fan of your work and they will quickly be dispelled 'cause it's it's it is a very different uh idea. This is my journey towards the booker. Yeah and then you get to this and then just gradually and then there'll be no jokes. But it's it's a very nice it's a it's very you know, uh the more of these sort of you know novels I'm reading, I d I don't read a lot of um uh fiction really before I started doing this podcast. And uh it's very interesting to see uh someone who's good at writing fiction and the sometimes the um you know the it's it's writing less is more and you know what I mean and and uh the being able to being able to say everything succinctly and get the story moving and without giving too much away and without you know, if there's a clang of like is that a clue sometimes you think that's such a clang in this book that that clue is trying to throw you off or whatever. So it's you know, it it''ss it's very well put together and and we'll keep you guessing I think to the end if you're interested in that but also it's you know it is a funny idea. Do you think uh I mean when you wrote about it I'm writing a thing about a s uh a a serial killer, I'm writing a film about a guy who um well we're gonna uh we're gonna hopefully improvise it, but the idea is a guy who re li uh realises that serial killers are doing more successfully with women than he is. Right. So he tries to kill f four people so that he can go to prison and get a girlfriend. Yeah. So it's sort of not I mean it's not dissimilar, but it's not similar either uh but and again it is you've got to make him likable but not likable because he's a murderer. With this, I mean that not many serial killers actually do retire in actuality. Did you research this to see if there were many retirement? I mean, occasionally one crop occasionally they catch one through DNA and stuff, don't they, who hasn't done one for twenty or thirty years. I don't know if there are any instances of serial killers retiring to luxury retirement homes. I think like crimin als do, right? But they do, but it but uh but also stopping I mean the the it's an interesting point because she the character is always on the verge of almost slipping back into it. Yeah. So that which I think is true. I think once you've tasted the Well if you like killing people which I don't I well I don't know, I've not done it, so maybe I would like if I did it. Look, don't knock it. Well don't knock it until you've tried it. Yeah. But if you like it, then I think it's quiet. It's like um you know, crisps, it's like Pringles in it once you pop, it's hard to stop. That's what they say. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that you do sort of forget that all these old people have had have all done stuff. Like I my my uh here we go. I'm gonna reveal something now. Good . My uh grandad's brother was sort of famous murderer. Oh really? Right . Well um my uh perhaps you know the you know the movie Let Him Have It. Yes . My grandad's brother is the one who actually killed the police officer. Although it's comp complicated, maybe he didn't actually kill him, but he takes responsibility for it. Yeah. And I met him like a couple of years ago, and he's just an old guy, right? Telling you stories about prison in the fifties because he did go to prison but he didn't hang for it because he was sixteen when he did it. Right, yes. And then my granddad's older brother was a proper criminal, like real li I don't think I ever met him, but real big time and I think he might still be alive. Right. But the last I heard he was in a retirement home and he had this guy in his nineties who I've heard a lot of stories about. And it's like that these are just you know, time comes for it all. Yeah. Well and it's an interest and but that's again what I liked about the story. It is it is a believable as as you know, as crazy as the premise is in a way, it's a believable thing that people whose paths have crossed you know, people that you've been enemies within life or that you've been on opposite in with this criminals and police put uh on opposite sides or are they or aren't they? Yeah. But whatever. They would end up they'd r they might end up in the same retirement hold as as old as old people. That's a totally premise we can accept, right? Yeah. And so that's a weird thing to think though, isn't it, that you're you might end up spending your last ten years with with someone you hated throughout your life or someone you were opposed that you probably would be once your life gets to be seventy five, eighty five, you might go, Well, there's no point in bearing grudges anymore. Still got the same gripes about how are the eggs at breakfast or whatever, you know. I feel like I feel like murder mysteries are really great because we ex it's probably maybe the genre that we accept the most that we all accept what that is, right? It's we all accept this doesn't Miss Marple doesn't really exist in real life. That wouldn't happen, but we like we let go of that, so you can put lots of real things into that story. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Yeah. Do you know what I mean to say? I do, I mean I think you know that's what I I I guess like you say, I mean it is funny, but I think I I thought it would be more well more comic all the way through. And I think I don't and I think that there's a sort of seriousness to it, and the characters are because you could play this like you know, you could do the opposite of Richard Osman's trying to make out oh old people, you know, uh the whi which you make this point a little bit as well, but that old people are you know aren't useless and can do stuff. Yeah. You could do you could do a parody version where everyone was just still messing everything up because they're old. Just let the police do it. The police are professionals. They know what they're doing. So that might be the parody, but this you know it is very much kind of going, okay, well you know it but but but you know it's interesting the characters are uh you know uh are obviously to throw in a murderer into the middle of this one and then a murder coincidentally and it uh coincident. I think we can say the murderer, the serial killer isn't the murderer. Okay, I think we could it's going to be Agatha Christian it though. I did cons consider whether you might do in her one of her novels the the the person telling the story ended up being the murderer of the act of Roger Ockroyd, I think. So you know, you could have that could have been the twist. I'm gonna tell you that is not the twist. I hope I haven't ruined it for you. Um but you know, to it's you know, uh it's obviously c comic that a serial killer would be in that situation. Um And I think you'd be right to be suspicious of it. But it's interesting about prejudice. I mean there's stuff about all sorts of prejudice in there, but it's interesting that how someone would cope once news like that got out, even if this wasn't a murder story that you that someone's in that situation has to cope with everyone going, oh my God, that person's been in prison for twenty five years for for quite gruesome murders. How are we going to deal with that? So they're dealing with sort of prejudice and and then obviously our under major suspicion for being the guilty one. Which is sort of also sort of fair enough. Yeah, it's dropping the bomb into a group of people of like you know stakes. The more I write stories I realise it's all about stakes. Yeah. You just drop that in and then Yeah. So what you know, what was what was the impetus for you to m to move from you know from what is a very broadly comic uh couple of books to something that is what is it the thing I want to be taken more seriously or is it just Are you are you i is is uh uh the Martin Fishback is that the 'cause I've you've been doing very funny things online still with that character, which I very much enjoyed. try Tried to walk to New Zealand. That's right, yeah. Um and I and I caught quite a lot of that story. It seemed to go on for a very long time. Have you finished is it f is that story over? Uh there might be an ending. There might be an ending. Very, very enjoyable. Is it do you feel like you want to move on from that or might we get some more of the of that? Well there's the there's the there's always the Yeah, I think they could that could always return. I do really enjoy doing that character. Yeah. Martin Fischbach. I've done it on online . He wrote those books were sort of written by him, if you know what I mean. Um but he has an enthusiastic audience but it it's quite small. There's any uh very in like I did some shows at the Soho Theatre and like people travelled all over the country but it's it's a small group of people. You know and those books I feel like the people who love them those Roger LeCare books, the people who love them really, really love them. But I feel like there's only so many people who can tolerate a whole novel where every line is a joke and it's just absurd. I think that that's and if you like that, then you really like that. But and also , I'm not saying I would never return to that, but once you get to three, four, five books, how is it gonna get better? I mean I'm amazed you got two out of it first I'm gonna say. But uh no, it's Yeah, no, they're they're really good they're those are really good fun books and they are you know, I think people hopefully if you haven't read them, give give them a read because they are very enjoyable. But it is it's a it's a definite gear shift into this one while still being in the the same area. Drive, right? You know where it's going. There's uh motivations are already there. That really helps me as a writer. And it was it was when I knew I was gonna be writing this book it was sort of s scary But then I really enjoyed sort of getting um it's it's not a McEwen but like but getting deeper into characters, getting to know them. And it but it's that sort of halfway house. Like I'm still like I came from comedy, I'm still sort of a comedian . I'm not I I can't write a page on a sunset. Do you know what I mean? I can't do that. So there's always that uh desire to like just k keep being entertaining. But being funny, you know, like it's great to have a uh jokes in an oven, it's great to have jokes written by someone who knows how to do jokes as well. 'Cause I s so often with funny novels and funny plays, they're not really that they're funny for a play or they're funny for a novel. But they're not written by people who are very funny. So this th there's there's lots of things that would make you laugh and there's lots of ideas that are uh you know that are a a little bit out there. It's not meant to be hyper real, I don't think is No, it's heightened. So it's not you know it isn't Ian McEwen and it isn't it i and and nor nor would it pretend to be, but maybe the next one will be if you're if you're moving gr you at all worried that you would write it and people would say, Oh, this is another great Martin Fishback novel. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because your your own writing would turn out to be Yeah, 'cause it's sort of adjacent to those books. It's hard to know how to like to um I'm trying to find a new audience as well, so it's hard to know how to promote it. Yeah. Like if you're trying to find a new audience but on the book it's like this isn't a parody this is real. Yeah. I mean it is it it's interesting and so do you do you envisage 'cause that's yeah, it is it's a it's a it's an interesting position to put yourself in with this because uh obviously like you might I don't think you'll leave behind the people who like your own stuff I think they'll certainly come across and read this and they'll enjoy it as well. But it i i are you hoping that Richard Osman and you know not just Richard Osman but that kind of reader will just pick this up and enjoy it. I mean I think it is the novel that I want it to write. Yeah. Is you know, i is in that area, in that genre that is popular now. But I think it's its own thing. It's darker. Yeah. It's probably more overtly comic and like heightened and as as I say, yeah . Um but yeah, I think you know, maybe your quintessential Richard Osman reader is a bit more um Oh I don't know. I don't want to finish that sentence . Do you think Richard Osmore will be uh delighted or annoyed with you for Do you know what? Have you thought about it? Do you know what I have thought about that, Richard ? I don't know. I to be honest, I think he's got bigger fish to fry. He probably ha I mean I think you know that it's just interesting because if it was more if it was more of a parody, I don't think he could have any problem with it at all 'cause he just'd go, Okay, this is quite funny you're taking the piss. Right. Because it's 'cause it's sort of n it's sort of celebrate it's a it's a li it's not a homage to him, but it's s a celebration of of that this kind of novel. You know, it's sort of like I well, I really like and this is not exactly like the top, I really like watching Death in Paradise 'cause it's always exactly the same. Yeah. Uh and uh you know and and it's very cozy and and you know and and it's sort of r ludicrous but also but actually quite good. And so I've watched every single episode of think of every iteration of Death in Paralys, which is quite a lot of watching exactly the same thing. I was week on week. I was I was up for that when um when Ralph Little got it. Oh really? But I had like they asked me to do a few tapes that he liked me. And I was like, Well there's no way I will get this, but they've asked for another tape. Yeah yeah. It's like am I gonna live in Is it was it Martinique? It's Guadalupe or something like that. Yeah, some might be yeah something. And I had so no I can't can I say this W we can cut it out. No, but I I I had heard and this is not about anyone individually, I literally don't even know who, but I had heard that that show for cast and crew can be quite straining on marriages. Right, yes. And and I genuinely don't even know who that was referring to. But and I had said that to my girlfriend a number of times. And then I was like really up for that job. She was like a show she said . I think it's just difficult for you know, it's they're they get really good people and and they've got really good actors and I think if for as a job as an actor go and do one episode I think must be quite a lot of fun. But I think for everyone who's there all the time, A, I think it rains much more than you think, and it's kind of the weather's quite bad for quite a lot of the time. But also you are, you know, if you're away from your home for half the year, like if I if I were to become the detective on Death in Paradise, which you know I would very much like to do, I think I would I think I would turn it down. Because I don't I wouldn't want to be away from my I couldn't take my family with me and I wouldn't want to be away from my family and I think that's the that's the issue with that show. It's the quandary. Yeah. That's why I guess Chris Marshall's moved to Cornwall in his one so that he can see his family, is my guess. I would imagine so yeah. I watch I watch all of them. Yeah. It's a good it's good show. Yeah. Um So you know there there is there is an element of being within that th you know, there's a lot of people doing um writing of detective fiction about And I think we are living in a cozy crime boom. There's something you know there is an there is an edge to your stuff still that that say wouldn't get into death in paradise. I think there is or or maybe even to Richard Osmond books, there's there it there's a little bit more comedy and there's a little bit more edginess to it, I think. It's about a serial killer, you know, and I don't shy away from it. You don't. It's subversive. It is. There are flashbacks of uh some of her murders which are quite violent and quite grim. She's got quite a sort of dark sense of humour. Yes. So I'm trying to sort of stretch how how can I just sort of stay within cozy whilst being quite dark? So yeah, I'm the sort of I'm on the fringe on the fringes of that party. Morning babes morning love fancy fancy uh cup of tea Want to quit smoking? Fear not, the power to quit is in your hands . Introducing the Free NHS Personal Quit Plan. With a quit date planner and advice on managing your cravings, you're more likely to quit with the right help. Search Smokeree free for your f plan and get the power today it's it's ri it's really interesting direction to go in, and like the problem with all the novels is that you c you get to a point where you can't really talk much more about the actual what's going on in the book without saying giving away what's going on. So it it's gonna be I'm gonna talk to you more technically about stuff I guess than uh you know it's it's really entertaining and like I say, I read it like in a flash really and I had to read it quite quickly 'cause we I got sent it last week and I'm not reading a book a week anyway. But you know, I actually you know, I thought oh maybe I might not finish this one which will be annoying but also I was really keen to finish it and it was a very enjoyable read and you'd you propel towards the end and you you know and it's it's you know with the denoumon with the which is you know is gathered together and let's get everyone in it and I'll say what happens but you're you know that's it's quite tongue-in- It's a nod to the sort of thing the bit at the end where Paro sort of gathers them all together. So there are like I as I say, like the mystery, there's all those s ort of um what's the word, sort of like motifs ? Well what's the no the what's uh what's the word, Richard? Well no, but like the word for tropes. Yes, tropes. Um I embrace all those tropes rather than sort of like trying to avoid them. So then you know this it's i there's a tongue in the cheek throughout throughout this whole thing. But it but it's that's what I mean i I I it's uh it's enjoyable because I you know, I don't think I would have enjoyed a complete I don't think I'd have enjoyed the thing I imagined it was gonna be as much. It maybe if you w written it I would n't. It's fun that there's still like an element of this is I'm acknowledging this is ri slightly ridiculous. I love the way in these in these in all of these books and you sort of deal with this I think quite well but you know the people get arrested and then are let out to carry on the story 'cause they have to get out. And becoming that so it's the you know, it's sort of s there's a slight fantasy element of we get to this stage and then suddenly we're at this stage. Uh and there's a kind of crazy uh bit near the end again where uh evidence is very heavily tampered with I would say by by the protagonist. Yeah, yeah yeah. In a way that you think if that happened i in real life all of those people are going to prison regardless of what who's guilty. Well I think it's fair to say although some of the emotions might be real and the characters might be real . Early on when a serial killer arrives at a luxury retirement home, I think you're already um suspending your disbelief quite a lot. Yeah. And then when someone is murdered and she's not a reason immediately taken off the premises . I think. Yeah. So Yeah the And you know, and the people but it this this is sort of it is a bit true of which of the people in charge of everything are absolute fucking idiots. So you know, there's a posh sort of school pot public school boys basically uh you know, owning the owning everything and and messing up all their businesses and being very bad at what they're doing. Um which you know is again sort of fantasy but also nah, is it this that I think that would happen. The kind of people who get these opportunities you know often there's a ch huge degree of entitlement behind it. So there's uh you know, there's a lot of truth within the comedy of it. And I think it you know, it feels more it feels more real than it does within once you're in the world. Within the silliness of it, you've still got each character, right? So you have to c you have to have a collect of collection of uh suspects of investigators . So the the sort of four main characters are Car ol, who is the the uh retired serial killer, so I had to sort of think about what would that be like for this f fictional woman . Then you've got um Margaret who is a retired home secretary. Yes. So she's sort of a comic character, but at the same time you do have to sort of think about what is that like. Who in my head I obviously had politicians. Yeah. But I wanted to be likable. You think about how do you look back on your yeah political career when you've and she, you know, her political career sort of ends in a moment of like uh she makes a massive mistake in a in a big public forum. Which was fun, right? That's a fun bit, right? There's a lot of fun bits. There's a lot of fun. Even though they're murders, they're funny and they're they're they're fun. Yeah, I think so. I was gonna go through the I thought I'd go through the four main characters. And then you've got Jeffrey, retired Met police officer, retired detective, really wants to get involved. Yeah. But he's sort of uh widowed, so you kind of there's some heart there and then you've got um uh Catherine, retired pathologist , who um uh whose husband left her, so she's sort of dealing with that breakup. Ye Yeah. And there's a little bit of um geriatric sex in the There is a little bit of sex, actually. Is that um did what kind of research did you do into it's quite it's very well I mean no I'm approaching being in the position where I will be having geriatric sex if I'm not already pretty soon. Yeah. Um and it sort of you know the you're quite a young man still. And it seemed quite well um researched and un and it seemed quite realistic 'cause the problem how did you research the geriatric sex ure? It seemed like s it seemed like someone who'd experienced what would happen if they had sex with an old person vigorous ly. Uh okay. Good. Yeah. I've wa ob I've obviously watched a lot of Jerry Eck before. Okay, that's what I was getting to. But um no, that one I wrote that when so I write at home mainly. Yeah. Every now and again it gets a bit boring. So that one I decided to treat myself to um an hour or two in the pub writing. Okay. And I had that s sex scene growing up. I was like, Oh, I think I'll I think I'll make them have sex. Yeah. And in the pub I just really enjoyed writing them on because um I don't think, you know, I d I won't tell you who 's having sex or There's a lot of old people and this it could be anyone. I'm not spoiling sex, I don't know. But basically two people ended up having sex while the world at war is on the background . I used to l I love writing sex scenes. Yeah, I know look and I think that is some as someone I'm approaching sixty and th that's still kind of okay I think. But there's a sort of there's an idea in the general populace, and I probably shared it when I was a younger man, that there there comes a point where those things should be off the the menu. My grandma who was sort of sort of widowed when she was like in a about eighty, sort of took a toy boy once my granddad died and was, you know, bang into and taught having sex with her her seventy five year old toy boy. Is that right? Yeah. And like said it was the best sex of her life and all this. Well when you think about it, it's our generation that aren't having many children. Yeah. The generations before we are the evidence. They did do it and who's to say ? They never told us they'd stopped. I think it's important to you know, it's important to acknowledge I think the truth is, isn't it, that the retirement homes have the highest instance of sexually transmatted disease transmitted diseases. Is that Is that um I don't think it is. I think there's because obviously you there's no longer any danger of pregnancy and I think an old person would think, well I'm not you know I think I did reference that they have condoms in the case. Excuse me. No worries. But yes, it's good to cover it, I think, Fergus. But deeply weird for a man in his forties to be interested in it. Um yeah. I've just written another one and um I've just realized I don't think there is no sex scene in that. Oh yeah. So is the same is it with the same characters? Yeah, it's not announced yet, but that's okay. I think I'm allowed to say. absolutely. But yeah, I've just I've written the Great the sequel. Yeah. And so how many is it is it an multi book deal or is it just a two book deal at the moment? It's not a it's a it's a book by book deal, but it's it's all very exciting 'cause it got um it my British publisher, it was sort of their idea really , did it with them. And you know, it might not surprise you to hear that I'm not one of Britain's best selling novelists. Right. So, you know, it wasn't yet. Not yet. So it wasn't, you know, some mega deal. But then um I found out there was a they sort of sort of started to hawk this round the world. And there was a in Germany there was a three-way auction for the translation rights for this book. That's what you want to hear, isn't it? Yeah, that was so exciting. And then it was called uh in Germany it's called um oh what is it called? It's The Shagging Grannies. The Shagging Grannies No it's called like um it means it it what is it called? I'm so sorry. It means it's called uh Bet reutz Morden . Um it means assisted dying. Or assisted assisted murder. Yes, yes. Assisted murder. That's good. And um uh and then the Americans, Berkeley, who are an imprint of penguin. Yeah. They went for it. Six figure deal. Amazing. So and then they want the next one as well. So it's exciting. They will if they're like if they're putting the money in up front then they're gonna be interested in your Well that's terrific news. So that's so that so 'cause this is coming out in the UK , I think will probably be the the week that we're putting this out. So it's February seventeenth. It comes out on February seventeenth, which is, Richard, pancake day. Wow. So it's a perfect pancake day present. If you need a present for pancake. I would say isn't isn't a pancake the perfect present for pancakes day? Probably not. Maybe not. Everyone's got pancakes, haven't they? It's flat. It's flat. You can flip it. You can flip it. And um and this is just a weird coincidence, yeah. That character Martin Fischbach, he had a pilot on the BBC, yeah, and in that pilot he is writing a book and one of the lines he says is all being well, this book will be finished by Pancake Day . That's true. It's just a great line. All being well. That's his No, that's so exciting. I know you did mention that to me in the when you when you uh contact me, but it was yeah, it's it's it it it's it's so weird, isn't it weird? I mean I've th I've talked to like writers at all different levels and often often a lot of people obviously who have have become massively successful um and it sort of just seems to be you know it,'s not luck because they're all really good, but there's a lot of really good writers out there as you know you know, there's people writing books and not getting six figure deals in America, you know what I mean, and which would have been you five years ago. So it's just sud suddenly just something happens and something comes at the right time or gets seen by the right person and it can be a sort of life changing thing and then you know, who knows what happens next. Well it's all a punt, isn't it it's like a business so they are like looking for what they think might sell and you know it's not out yet, so it might not sell. You know, it's all a punt, but you know. Um I think for most writers books are not a lucrative thing. They aren't. Again, there's this you know, I was sort of s I was sort of saying that on Twitter, someone was saying like on s you know, I'm on Substack and Substack's a lot of aspirant writers and people going, you know, I've sold my first piece or my goal someone said my goal is to earn like two thousand dollars a month or something like it from writing. Um I said, you know, like the number of people who will do that is most if I relied it solely on writing to make a living, I would be having quite I'd be I'd be in quite and I've had new I've had quite a lot of books published and I've written quite a lot of TV scripts and stuff. I'm presuming I would do a bit more work if I was only a writer, but I would be I'd be finding it very hard. Even you know, and I'm quite a well paid writer, so like I'll get an advance for a book that's uh you know five figures, not six figures, uh low five figures, but given the amount of work that goes into writing something, that doesn't last you to for very long if that's all you're doing. When you realize it, you sort of go Well you look at the Sunday Times bestseller list and it'll have what they've sold. Yes. And you can be on that having sold like fifteen hundred copies in a week. Yeah. In some lists, some weeks . And like, you know , that's not very much money for the writer, it isn't tru.e So it is a very you know, it's a difficult thing. So it's lovely to hear that that's happened to you and that's great and hopefully it will um lead to more successes. But yeah, that's that's it's it's nice that that's um I mean it's not come out of the blue, has it, but it's it what that's sort of intra well has it do you feel like it has come out of the blue? Well I'll be honest, I was like in d dark days. Yeah. Richard. I like I um I left my course at a job about do you know what? So we went to Edinburgh. Yeah. Uh I was in a double act. We've covered this before. I was in a double act with a guy called Colin Holt, who I know has been on your real podcast. But does does two book appearances I think does that beat one line? I think that I think that's one and uh one point two appearances I would say. Good. So just as long. He He uh we were in a double act, we did Edinburgh together and we lived with you in two thousand four and five in Edinburgh during the festival. And that was when we left the call centre jobs. Right. And since then , you know ups and downs . Never became a household name, far from it. Never became famous at all. Fine. But like But did lots of what you knew. You were getting acting jobs and you're getting So like never not enough to to not keep doing it. Yes. But also the odd year where like I don't think I can make this work. How do I live? Some like really difficult times. And the year when I was writing this book, you know, I had the advance. I did that, but it wasn't a year's salary or anything like that. So that was very tricky. So getting those deals was was life changing. Yeah. Good. Yeah. But you know, it I think it's just I mean because I think look obviously right uh writers listen an aspirant writers listen to this podcast and I want it to be about you know I want this version of the podcast to be about being a writer and the truth of it and it is you know it it I don't want to give people like false hope that these things happen, which cause you obviously I'm mainly talking to people who have successfully published, which is yeah, but even being successfully published is an amazing achievement. But as you say, you know, you'd it's it's not as amazing as people might think. So if you've got some books in a bookshop, that does not mean you are a millionaire by any stretch of the imagination. But then it is getting to that next one where people are you know fighting over the film rights, fighting over you know, when you get into a bid ding war that is um you know yeah and it and and it's a decent and it's not just the bidding isn't a hundred and fifty or two hundred or three hundred pounds. Yeah. When it 's when it's a bit th3 50s as part as well. I'm just out of absolute dire straits. But you have to like um be careful on these conversations, don't you? Because you've got that you know that how to fail podcast. Yeah. Like that one. In my depths of failure . I was like, I could it was like the l you know, I don't want to talk shit about it because I never really listened to it, but I was like, they're all so successful. This makes me feel the opposite of good to hear like you know, and sometimes you see proper best selling authors go like my third book didn't hit the top ten and I didn't know what to do. I mean it's all wherever you get to, and this is the thing that I think you have to try and and it's very difficult to step away from. Yeah. But wherever you get to in your career, you're if you're looking at the next person up or the next few people up, you're never gonna be happy in your life. You can only really compete against yourself, but also you just have to try I think w like you know, what you're saying, like what I was talking to Danny Robbins recently and um very recently actually and you know he, he just once he started writing something he was really interested in, you know, you're going on, well, what can I write for people? What can I do? He just started doing something he was interested in, and it's exploded into this massive huge huge thing for him. Uh and it is, you know, it you will and I and I I think it's I feel, you know, again, I I I can't say that I haven't had a successful enough career. I've worked for the last thirty, forty years. But as a writer, I don't think I've ever had now I've had things made and have things published but nothing's ever gone over the top in that way you know. And so you can have a whole career and you can have a whole career where you're actually content and it's okay and most people aren't gonna have any idea who you are, and for most writers that is gonna be the case. And uh even with you know, even with some writers who are getting massive detail deals, most people won't know who they are. Yeah. So it's so it is it is interesting, but you know, it is it's I suppose it's just about it is about sticking through it and sticking through not giving up. I think unless you re I mean but then also give up if it's not going if it's not working for you. I think when you're in your twenties, when I was in my twenties, you look at people like yourself or whatever and you think, well, you think that there's this line, or well if you cross this line, yeah. And then you sort of realize, well, it's a long life. It's a long way able to get to a level where you can like sustain a career. And yeah, things go for everyone things go w way up and down and you know you're on a trajectory and then suddenly the rug gets pulled out from under your feet and it's it's coping with those times and it's getting through those times where it's you know, and there's nobody there to help you as a writer or a performer if you if you get if you hit the skids and you mentally hit the skids, there's no one there going, Come here, I'll try you know, I'll help you through this. You've got to have the mental strength to get through those bad times yourself. And I was in the position where mid-40s , struggling to make it work, nothing on my C V a degree in acting from like twenty five years ago. Yeah. That I d I d did genuinely I don't know, a year and a half ago or whatever, I was calling recruitment agencies. Right. And they were like literally just laughing at me, like, well there's nothing I can do with you. You you fucked it. Like it was very hard to work out. Yeah, so what you're saying is get to the point where there's no other option. Um well look, I'm really glad it's I'm really glad that's happened for you and I think this book is is is like as I say, is a lot of fun and people will really enjoy it. So I think it's gonna do well. I'm delighted to hear that you you there's definitely gonna be more as well. So that's uh that's very exciting. Um but yes, it's it's it's good stuff. It's called uh I'm not the only murderer. I was gonna say serial killer, that's gone glad checked. I'm not the only murder er in my retirement home. Uh and it is you know, it's if if it's it's very funny, it's gonna be do you think it could be made into film I don't think the the f the Richard Osman film on Netflix didn't I would say successfully it's not as bad as people say it is, but uh th I've heard people say it is, but it doesn't didn't really translate the books across. I think this might work better. I'd like to think so. 'Cause it 'cause it's it's it feels I think it's f his books are like are so complicated, I think, and complex in in a way. You know, like there's a lot of stuff going on too much stuff going on for it to be a film, I think. Whereas this feels like we have a story, there's still a lot of characters, and there's a lot of things coming together, but it feels like it would work. Well people are interested. Yeah, good. I think it could be. Yeah. But um yeah. You want to be in it? Yeah, definitely. Always. I'm getting over if you let if you take another ten or fifteen years, I'm old enough to be. I can age up. I can age up. Um Yeah, look, it's great. Look, are you are you a big reader? Are you reading anything else at the moment that you would like to recommend? I'd like to recommend. I read um The Flesh.. Okay Over Christmas. That was good. Yeah. But I mean, that doesn't need recommended, does it? You know what a book I read last year, which I think is the best book I ever read? Yeah, go on. The Beasting. Okay. By Paul Murray. I've not it was I think it was nominated for the book a like a few years ago. Right. It's a massive sort of door step. I can't get into books like that. It's an easy read though. Is it? I know, but it's I've got to read a book a week. Yeah, it it''ss it's I think the best book I've ever read. Okay. It's very good. Well I might have a look then. Yeah. And a d have you done an oh uh usually I listen to the audiobook but it's not out yet. Have you d have you done an audio book of this? There is an audiobook. Are you d no you' notre doing it? I didn't do it because initially I was meant to do it and then just I just you just realize there's four main characters, they're all elderly, three of them are women, yes. I've only got so many like elder women voices, you know, and I thought No. So who have you got have you got anyone exciting to read? Her name is Joan Walker. She does a lot of audiobooks. Right. She's very good. I haven't heard the job she's done in it yet. Okay. But uh she's she's very good at what she does. So good. Yeah, I can say I mean again it w it it it I think this will be a very a fun audio book with with the right person. I think you're right. That's and usually I like to hear the person who's written it do it, but I think that is a good I think when it's Yeah, I mean even and you are a very good actor as well, so I you know I think even with you and you you are good at doing all different characters, but I can see that that decision is probably why it's comic, but there are moments of authentic emotion. Yeah, probably a good choice. And it it looks you know, it looks cool that you're too big now to do your own audience. I don't have the time. I do not have the time. Well look well we know there's at least one more. I hope you will uh uh carry on and do more than that. There's I think these characters will uh sustain. Again, the problem is I've spoken to Richard Osman about this, obviously they the it can't sustain too long because their characters are in their seventies. So you can't be You can sort of freeze time. I suppose so. The Simpsons have done it, and they the Simpsons are still the same age. Maybe this is a happening like instead not every year, they're happening once a week. Yeah. Every every week there's a terrible load of murders. Um and it's you know, I like I like it. I like ri I think it is as as comic as the idea is, I think that yeah I think you do explore the the the the situation of that serial killer. I mean again, not realistic situation, I don't think, of being let out of prison and put back in amongst people . I like it. If that happens, which it must happen I don't know if it does happen. They get rebelli Hitler was let out of prison very I'm I've been listening to a podcast about Hitler and he was let out of prison and they and Did he go on to do anything or he went on to be quite bad. So he did the beer hill h ull putsch in nineteen twenty four or something like twenty three. Yeah. Uh and then he was he was committed grand treason so should have been sent to prison for life right but basically all the judges were quite sympathetic to him and let him speak and he was sent to prison for five years, but only served like fourteen months, and when he came out, it was pretty he's going back to private life, he's learnt his lesson, yeah, and it'll be fine. And then Hitler turned round and he had a little surprise, didn't he, for everyone? Yeah. Well it just goes to show when you're at your rob ot you can So that's my my He wrote a book in prison, so there you go. That's that's That's it. It was a very successful book. Um but so yeah, so there is I was gonna say that that pro that doesn't prove my point, but sometimes they uh let peop they let bad people out of prison, don't they? But I mean people get they do, right? I mean probably serial killer. They're not letting them out, are they? I think it's uh I mean in reality I don't I don't think s I think once you're a serial killer it's not true sometimes serial killers just r sort of gr retire 'cause they're not caught and then they retire. Like I was saying at the start, occasionally then a someone's their their cous their nephews put something into ancestry.com Yeah and their DNA's in there and they're caught. Well the way I got around it is that she's she told them where the bodies were buried. So they um So they let her out. They they reduced the sentence . And she's you know, she's nice. She's a nice person underneath. Really nice person. And it wasn't I mean you know, and the murders are uh uh it's the kind of murders that you that you play out in your head that if you were a serial killer you might someone so irritating or or unpleasant. Her victims nobody deserves to be murdered and I'm not gonna victim blame even your fiction I'm not gonna victim blame even your fictional characters in this fictional book. But they they're annoying and I think in your fantasy world you kinda think I wish something would happen to that horrible person. It's not a pro murder book, but it's not interesting that we that people it is people want to read about murder and people, you know, it's the subject that people keep coming back to. People who aren't murderers and the people who presumably don't want to be murdered. We're all sort of fascinated by it and and we're fascinated by these shows and it has become a form in its comic form, in its you know, or in its comic drama form, like Death in Paradise. That's still a lighthearted show about the bigger. Well that's the funny thing. That's the funny thing, isn't it? That there's an acceptance that um murder is an acceptable, like cozy Sunday night thing. Yes. That it's a very relaxing Oh, it's like putting on my favourite pair of slippers to watch this. But it's fundamentally about murder. And I do find it quite funny that people are like with these sort of books you you have to stay within the bounds and then sometimes people are like, Ooh, I didn't like that, that that's bad taste. It's like it's about murder. But it's inter ing it's you're in a play play area. It's sort of like stand up comedy, which you're you know all about as well, where you're you know, you can in most cases play with an idea in a stand up comedy thing that would be in i in a the real But yeah, it's sort of it knowing it's not real, it's okay, I suppose, if this was a book about real life serial killer . If you'd written a book about Adolf Hitler