Writing Methods and Future Project Ideas

Hi Rat fans. Thankks for downloading the podcast. Thanks to everyone who came to the Droit Witch and St. Alban's gigs, which were fantastic. Look the big news is coming up we're at the Edinburgh fringe doing Rhllistterur From the fifth of August to the sixteenth of August, there's two shows on the eighth and ninth. They're all at St three except for those later shows at five thirty which are at W Edinburgh, which is another stand venue. The regular shows at two o'clock. tickets are available go to richchain d. com slash rllustter p And book now, especially if you want to come on the weekends where tickets are selling fast I am going to start booking guests this week and you'll be able to see The confirmed guests on that website as well. So book ahead It's lots of fun. We had loads of fun last year we should be creating Enough podcasts to see us through to the end of the year. After that, what's gonna to happen Sure, my find friends sure Anyway, sit back, relax, Enjoy another episode Of whatever Flickking podcast you're listening to. Hello, welcome to another Rllust of a Book Club. This week I have been reading bad deeds. I this probably that the actual covenant? This is an advanced copy that says it's coming out in April. Yeah twenty twenty six hing Nothing on there' right. It's Bad news by previous guests on this book club Andrew Hunter Murray, whos joins me now. how are you? Yeah, great. Terrific ood It's very good to see you. And yeah, look, this is your fourth novel. Is that correct? Yeah Yeah. So and I read the sanctuary which we talk about. And this is very different. very different. I mean, I think I could in the last podcast I compared that to John Wyham, which you liked, which I think it is V happy with that. This one is not like John Windham. How dare you? You youve let the estate to be ye, yeah. No there's no talking walking plants in this one at all. Rubbish. I mean were the first two books were a bit more sort of serious think when they end this Yeah, they were so serious. there was sci fi. it was sort of slightly sci fi, you know, not big space opera no lasers, but it was it was sort of alternate worlds and things like that and you know, all this world, but it's all gone wrong. And I did the end of the world twice and I just I thought I can't do this again I cant I can get this at home, you know, I can get this on the news. I don't need I don't And just I looked at everything else I did and I thought, oh, that's interesting. You do this comedy podcast and you write for this, you know funny, stirical magazine and then you're writing these incredibly serious books. So I'm still very proud of them. know I love those first two. I just wanted to do something with a little bit more humor in it, a little bit more flex. I mean, it's sort of a capery sort of fun. I mean, I love the look I should say this is the second book in a series. Yeah. So so the first one is a beginner's guuide to Breaking and entering. Yeah I'm glad I got that right because I haven't check. whichich I've got, but I haven't I wasoy enjoying this one so much. Oh night. But I thought I should go back and read the other one Th these are long books and I don't have time to. I don't even have time to read one of your books, Andrew. Tim Minchin's book was about twenty pages long and that's what that's the ideal book club. I don't want four hundred and thirty pages that I have. As I told you before, I've literally finished this in Pt Mondi about half an hour ago. I'm so proud which I love to do. It's really good to you know, I was really, really enjoying it When I started reading it then I had to read other books and then I came back to it the last couple of days and then I was will I be able to finish this in two days? but it's such a It is, you know,s a thrilling ride and it's funny I'm so glad you said you finished it in prep, can I just say? Yeah, not because that's how I always imagined it. but I wrote a lot of it in a costard. and so and it's but I like the kind I mean the kind of book that I was hoping to write is the one that you can You can read it, you know anywhere. there's no even if you've got five minutes on a train platform or something you're waiting for the bus, you can think, o, I'll just read a little bit more of that. You know, that's the dream. I think's an idea fact a lot of because we came into London to to go to to the cinema last night. So on the way in and out, you know, I read and actually it's very hard to u You know, it's all weird we become so dysfunctionalven we in terms of concentration. It's very hard to find half an hour. You can just sit down and go, look, I really am going to invest in this book. And if you do that, then you really you overcome that hump of going I must check my phone in two minutes to see what's happening on socialedia. But I find I'm completely addicted to my phone, so if I find it very difficult I really only do it on holiday when I'm re or you know if there isn't an audio version of the book yet. So yes. So look, tell us first of all about because obviously this is a follow up. so the first book, tellell us what you can again about the first book the first book without giving O course it doesn't give anything weight So it's about a character he's called Al. He has now become Alex for the second book. out Al looks exactly like AI And a couple of people said to me, is this like a clever thing you're doing about AI? No 's justust got him out. fourour years ago when I was writing the first one, AI was not you know, what you'd overhear everyone talking about. So no, hes just called that should have to I mean it has ruined the name Al. I have to say it really has and they should do something about it in fonts. Yeah. They just have to make a lowercase L like have a little curl at the bottom, doesnn't he? That's why need They should do something about it in fs. I couldn't agree more. So L shouldn't be the same as I you know, that's crazy. But this is a problem that's deviled Western civilization. That's why we're being overtaken now by everyone else, you know. In China you can tell very clearly what everything is. Yeah ye the characters.way look M need more letters. So Al, Alex, he breaks into lovely empty second homes when the real owners are away and he lives there. That's the premise of the first book. He calls himself an interloper. He's basically a luxury squter. But he doesn' know he doesn't steal things, he doesn't trash the place. He just gets in, lives in these fantastic places and then gets out It's kind of a fantasy of the housing crisis. wouldouldn't it be nice if you had a skeleton key to everywhere in the country? And that's how I thought of the book was walking around during that miserable lockdown winter. Do you remember that I. A lot of Christmasy walks with my wife and we lived next to quite a posh area. so wed go walking around there for a, not very nice flat And you just see people just leave their curtains open and you just think That's a nice place to live. I'd love tove And so I wo I wonder how easy it would be to get in. And then so I thought of that's when this character kind of just turned up in my in my head and I just I wanted to write A story about him I did that first but, you know, he breaks into the wrong house on the wrong day and it all It all goes tits up from there. There go. Yeah. So in this second one He's now proro. there's a job called being a pen tester, which I'm sure you've already heard of, but it's security testing. You know, you're allowed to break into an office or a home or probably a really nice home because most people don't hire professional security testers for the house, And you then present a report about the security vulnerabilities and what needs to change in order to make it really intruder proof. So that's a real job. And I interviewed a load of them for this book. Right And Alex is now doing that as a job And it all gets titss up again. again it's good it does go I mean like what I like about is these bit of an idot okay b better to say Yeah. as well as being very smart and they would do all these things. And there's a team of people around as a computer expert who couldnt pack into anything which is always useful. Yeah yeah And you know, and other people who all have different skills within this within this team. Yeah. But he is kind of quite stupid. Well A to get into this situation in the first place Yeah which no one else in the group is prepared to do. and then he makes quite a lot of bad mistakes as he goes along. I'd say he's clever, stupid. you know. he's clever. And that's the interesting thing. Yeahah, because As a character, he's incredibly proud of the specific very specific set of skills. Wh's that is that Liam Neson? Yeah He's got that, but he does not have a lot of the other stuff that goes around it the emotional stuff. Yeah. And so it does lead to making catastrophic decisions. And I just I love that. One of my favourite Coen Brothers films is Burn after Reading. Yes, where you've got a lot of mayhem happening between there's Brad Pitt plays this complete I mean, he's a complete idiot at that character, but occasionally you then zoom out to where the CIA are observing all this from Langley or wherever it is. and they're looking down like Greek gods at the scene and they're going Why did he do that? Why would you do that? What is going on? Come back when it makes sense. What is that And I just think there's a really nice you know, you can zoom in and the ways people behave are often pretty chaotic and stupid Yeah. And so and Al does that. Wellight it's a lot of, you know, it's it's a it is a funny book and it's a, you know, it' got that. I mean, it feels like You know, it feels like a sort of movie it feels a bit like u Now you see me now you don't or something like you know what I mean Yeah bit a bit classier than that which I like enjoy now you know but it it's sort of Id enjoy it for kind of slightly hating it because they're all because they're all so fucking up themselves in that film. You're really punishing a bruise here, Richard C I just say because my two of my colleagues are no such thing as a fish. Dan and James. They are obsessed with the now you see me film. Yes. they' obsessed. Now I said I rememember Dan talks about it so much. James bought him a signed Playing card by Jesse Eisenberg, autographed by him I mean, I've had it up to hear with that franchise. It is I find it insufferable but impossible to look away from, which is which is not true of this book, but I suppose what I mean it's within that area about Yeah of a team of people who are pretty witty and get themselves into I mean, you know likeike you say in this, they're getting themselves into situations that they, you know, have peril where I think in that film, They're also clever and know everything that's going. It's that heist thing which is a bit different is everyone's in control. yeah in this book, no one's really in control of what's happening. I watched Oceanss eleven again recently. and it is good, but there is There is an American British thing going on there, I think. R. I think we're not happy if anyone is too clever and competent. I don't like it, you know. And again with the I love The Slow Horses books by Mc Herrod. they're so good. And those guys are real screw ups, you know, they've really They've ruined their life. They're never going to be invited on the How to fail podcast because they failed so badly. They just couldn't. So I think for a British sensibility, you want people who've made a real hash about it. Yeah Yeah No I definitely think so. And I think you know, Rick and Morty does a really funny mistake of like heist movies, you know heist and the heist and the he Yeah I know the intricacies. I wouldn't let us not talk but I know you've talked about this these films are so let's not talk about that rather than your book, but no it's sort of it's, you know, it feels very as much as it's a very enjoyable book, it feels like, oh, I can see these this becoming a film, which I'm sure is at the back of your mind. Someone is I think someone's working on it. Yeah, but you know, you can never someomeone is working on it, which is very exciting, but you know, it's so out of your hands by that point Yeah when someone says We're going to make you a star after a certain number of times is that happen you go? Okay, thank you. I'll see you with the bfters. But I suppose what he definitely has is the legs to go on as a series of books at. I'm currently currently scribbling away, ye the next one. you know it's a very strong team of characters and there's some relationships and ex relationships you know, it is it really does work as a group of friends, but also there's You know, there's a bit of antipathy between certainly some of the people, which is which is sort of interesting as well because it's that's, you know, that they're rubbing each other for the wrong way. Obviously a couple of them moving together as a partnership aren't anymore. So that's always but are still working together. that's an interesting. Yeah, it's funny. I think It's funny with a series of books because you want people to you do, you know, if you're writing a novel, you want there to be some degree of emotional change or development. But if you're writing a series of books, you've got to parcele that out. You don't want people res And also, I don't think it's true to life. I think the big character changes that you get in novels where someone works it all out Yes. is a fantasy. It's a bigger fantasy than Game of Thrones, you know, We don't do that. We don't, in fact, I'm reading Raffles the old Raffles book Yeah know a gentleman thief.es. a very old school. you know, he's a safe cracker Yeah It's a prophet and quite a lot of it is technical detail about how you get through these layers of a safe. But there's a line in it, which I think I might use in the next Breaking and Eering book, which is Um We don't change Bny He's talk to someone else called Bunny obviously. they've all got stupid nicknames We don't change, bunny, we merely develop. Yes. And I really like that. You know, I think that's probably true It's definitely trueough, Alex. I think yeah. I mean, I think certainly In our younger years as well, I think it's which these these characters are all I'm assuming. Yeah kind of late twenties yeah U and I think yeah, I think you just keep on lundering on making the same mistakes until you really smash your head against a wooden gun. Okay, maybe I should change Yeah ye I've definitely changed I've changed over the last fifteen years, you know, I wouldn't be capable or competent of doing the kind of work I'm doing now then. But it's been geological. you know, that's something that's much likelier. Yeah. and like I like the fact that this guy that Alex is sort of that they all regard him with a little bit of like, oh God, you know, you'reuining everything and you're Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. they still and we don't want to work with you anymore. which is where this starts that he sort of ostracized. And then he gets them into so much trouble that they have to work together and they're furious with him because they And the thing is that this doesn't give too much away. they want to to a certain extent get on and have a life. Yeah They do want to, you know, his M his kind of on off girlfriend. They really would like to sorted out and grow up a bit and Alex is not ready for that. No. and he drags them all down with them. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, its it's very it's a very strong, you know, that I think that time not having read the first one, but that idea of you know, professional break in artists it's such a strong idea for this you know to have that thing to have that as as a starting point because again, yeah I think you just feel that this is sort of endless possibilities with Well the other thing, I should just say, as you mentioned the age of the characters, it's slightly about that thing of being in your twenties and not really having got your life worked out, renizable phenon and you know, it only gets harder, it seems, you know, because you know housing is more out of reach you can't do the usual milestones by the age of twenty five that you could have done thirty years ago. about It's actually a very important metaphor for that bit of life, but it's trying to point out, you know, these people have been kind of locked out of ordinary society by you know, the way the world is. and so they have taken quite an extreme decision.es where they're breaking into places. But it's it does make a big point about and weirdly there's quite a lot of parels with this But at the same time as reading this, I was listening to London's falling, which is the true story of the you the kid who pretended to be a Russian oligarch son and then, you know and ended up probably being well throwing himself at window to f to his death. Yeah, which I mean there's a lot of parallels because this book starts with some them falling to their death and and and is all about that kind of shady underworld of crime and and business and you know, how people make their money and how there are these ridiculously opulent houses. So like I'm almost in my mind kind of a little bit confused about about which book is written but it does really, you know, it really becauseuse that's obviouslyue and it's a brilliant written book. and it's you know, and it's a really fantastic investigation, but this kind of does match up with, I think in, you know even though this fiction, it does feel like yeah, that you you get this world. And I think that idea, you know, the idea that you don't feel any I mean you feel complete empathy for the characs because ye, yeah, it's ludrous that there's all these massive empty houses that people have bought as an investment and they, you know, they're Russian or they're from Saudi Arabia or whatever Yeah yeah and no one's living in these houses. It's insane. Yeah and it's because it's London. because it's reasonably politically stable and it might not feel like that. But you know, in comparison with lots of the world, it's very politically stable and it's seen as a good place. You can just leave right? I'll leave ten million quid here in the shape of this house Yes and it's not going to go anywhere orr if you've got T millionQid that Maybe you shouldn't have. Yes. Well, that's fine. It goes into the house and then I sell the house and then bang there' Re money. Both these books really made me think about that, you know and about how much You know, it's hard to imagine anyone with kindind of money is not doing not. I mean the people in this book are doing something you know, there's murders and there's there's all sorts of things going on and you know, we won't go into who's doing what, but the people the people in this book are you know, doing some very shady stuff Yeah. But you sort of think, well probably that's, you know, that's true if it came down to it for these people and It was the choice between making a billion pounds and bumping off a couple of people they would probably be quite happy to do that. Yeah, I mean it' It sort of does happen. It's why you get extreme concentrations of wealth. And in the center of London, you do have that. I mean we're in center of London now you know, we're surrounded by these insane buildings and there is so much privacy behind those walls, you know it's Yeah,'s it's very disconcerting like an ordinary bloke from a suburb. Yeah. you go into this weird futuristic world where there's this these insane. they're like icles of money, you know Yeah And and the you know, the cover up can, you cover this really the ick the Secret Services are sort of on top of it to an extent, but equally allowing things to go by. and you know that's very much Like if you look at all the stuff that's happened with the Russian oligarchs in this country and people who've died and people have been murdered and people who've been accidentally poisoned Yeah are deliberately poisoned Um, the government isn't, you know, is sort of sweeping most of under the carpet. So, you know, it is like There is a feeling that well, we're not going to investigate this because it's not You know, there's a there's a political class above it which is telling us not Maybe. yeah, I think I'm sure a bit of that does happen, but I don't have too much chapter to reverse on exactly which. But no, I mean, you know I write for private eye magazines, so we do occasionally cover stories like this where you know someone dies and then the perpetrator just goes back to whichever country that they're originally from, which doesn't have an extxtradition treaty with the UK. there are loads of cases like that. But you know, for for example with the Salisbury poisoning. Yeah. The fact that two, you know, British citizens end up dying from I mean, you know, it's bad enough that you know, the people who were originally poisoned had survived and the policeman who was, I think incapacitated by I would haven't really heard much more about that, but I remember the time they said Yeah that was life changing for him. Yeah. But like a British citizen died because these guys put everything in a fucking perfume bottle. I mean, it's so ye yeah And yet there's no real even with Russia being more of an enemy now, there's no real repercussions to that, which is, you know Yeah, I mean To a certain extent what are you going to do? You know, I mean sort of keep an on the situation as best you can and, you know it It can't go back in the bottle, you know,s it's yeah, it's so There is a lot of that around and I think in London there's plenty of it around and I'm making stuff up for the books. you know is but it's drawing on you know, cases that do happen. Yeah. I mean, and the other interesting thing is I think it's very easy to blame billionaires come here and murder people and then leave again. and it's there too. But the other more interesting thing, or the element of it I find really interesting is there's a great book called Butler to the World by Oliver Bller It's about how Britain has made itself into a society which accommodates large amounts of hot money, easy money, whether that's through various crown dependencies, you know all sorts of ways of avoiding scrutiny of your money. and the sort of partial attempts that have been made to sorted out, which haven't yielded huge success yet, like a register of who actually actually owns this mansion.. And if If you say, oh well, actually five of us own this mansion, so no one owns more than twenty percent, you don't have to declare the ultimate beneficial owner, orr if it's owned through a company that's owned by another company. Y That's not policed as effectively as it could be And that is a big point in both breaking and entering and bad deeds That's not really been scrutinized as much as it could. and And it's a shame because I do think it yies results. If you hire a few more people do a little bit more of the investigation. is actually it's great money speent. Then you could take the stuff back if it's been acquired illegally the government could have it take it and sell it and think of all the money we could That' be nice. Yeah, ye. Unfortunately I feel like any potential government we have be might be just as crooked. certainly certainly with what's to come but you know, it's interesting, you know so much of that russia stuff has happened under the Tories and Labour watchatch as well So look, what I was tell was how adept do you think you would be at breaking into places yourself. You you know,'ve got there's a lot of good information there about and you've obviously done your research and work out how certain things could work I interviewed a lot of penesters for this book and it was really fun And none of them wanted to be named in the acknowledgements. I said I can put you in they said, It's okay. Thank you. completely I just didn't understand it at all. Do you know? Anyone ever says to me, shouldhall I put you in the acknowgements? Yes So I'd be terrible at it because I like being the center of a potential show off Whereas people who are really good at it are completely unobtrusive And And is it dangerous for them because do they I mean mean like in within the book that someone knows that you're trying to break in and yes but not the people of obviously not the security guards who are there. So like in in the book, the first one He get into Alex gets into a lot of trouble breaking in You and beaten up. If if you're really doing this job pen testing P can be the people who are guarding the building can be warned, okay this week someone will be trying to get in there's going to be a pen test. And sometimes if people are armed, let's say it's a I don't know, keep bit of the national grrid, right? Yeah. And there are armed guards around those people will be warned more specifically not Not to shoot anyone bluntly, you know, this morning. So if you happen to break in at the same time as a pen tester, then you're going roll it That's actually who you are That's a very good blotline. Oh I should have put that into bad deeth. you can have it in the next one. Thank you I will. And I want to be an the acknowledgement. You will be. very much Yeah, no, I don't think I'd be good at it at all. I feel like the party that they break into is that personal. I mean, that, you know There'ss I think that's personal knowledge. I know about BAFTa.. so I recognize all the stages of that. Yeah.. Is that something you've done or is that just something you realize could be done after I they'll cl think they'll close that loophole now you've written in the book. Do you think the security at Baser is quite fee. I hate to say it. I don't and I shouldn't to say I only go there because private eye, the magazine that I write for has an annual journalism award. R. And at the past it's been at BAFTA And so I've got, you know a bit of knowledge of the layout of the building. and Yeah. Yeah yeah. So if you want to know in the short term, if you buy this book quickly before to realize that there's a very good way to get into their star studed parties. Yeah, I feel that probably It's even easier than you make out. I mean, I know I've been to a few things at BAFA Yeah and seem to there's not much stuff., I remember passing What's her name? The actress from she was doing V for Vendet at time was. what's her name? It's not Natalie Portman. Natalie Portman. I passed Natalie Portman on the stairs. Yeah. just so, you know, like just going in. so you're very much banging if you just get on the stairs, you're banging the heart of it. That's the thing about this b is that confidence is a lot of getting into places, p testing. you know, just I'm meant to be here. donon't worry. Oh I'm just sorry, I'm holding this. canan you just help me with this door? You know, there is a lot of that.ople are People are always the weakest point in any security system. you know, If you have a really effective door, it's actually quite hard to get through If you have someone standing Exador, who' say o Oh, yeah, sorry three go here, you're right. that's where you can do it. And if you've been seen regularly, you know, so people sort of think your background, you know, there are lots of different interestnteresting psychological methods you can use to get into places. Yeah. ye yeah yeah. And it happens. I mean, the pen testers I spoke to had all sorts of great stories about you know, people who've just got into places As a military guy Well he wasn't a military guy, but he got into a ort of military club. for quite senior officers just by turning up with some medals on looking quite smart. I was there for about a week. And just all his meals and accommodation and just, you know, just just because you assume your brain fills in the rest. You fool yourself. Yeah. That's the thing. I can't believe this is true, but I accidentally broke into Buckingham Palace' fantastic onn the day All the world leaders are going to be there Right? So they were having they were having a thing that night there was the thing where all the world leaders were going to be there. I was researching the McMillan Ecycopedia of the Royal familyam. It's back nineteen ninety one. I'm sorry. I end up I end up getting a job doing writing entries for the McMillanncyedia the Royal familyam, which is funally itself because it came out And then the more Royal family imploded. so it was it thanks to your imediate? And I didn't write very I didn't write very much of it and kind of got let go because I kept on putting too manyoney travel expenses. You basically it wasri didn't say too many jokes. It was a brilliant job because they just how you know, you just told them how long you worked and they they gave you the money. and it was quite well, you know, for me at the time it was very well paid. But anyway so I was allowed to use the Buckingham Palace Lbrary. and I went in front of Buckingham Palace and then and there's this room on the on the right where you and then they said, rightight, what you need to go go round the side and then come there's an entrance at the side to you need to be in this other entrance. So what they meant was go all the way out and come in the side. but I thought they just meant go across slip across, slip across and then find So I walked right across the front of Buckingham Palace. At the time I was using a like a camera case as a brillge.d I'd won an Empire magazine competition. And they'd gi me a load of sort of, you know, you'd end up getting some ike it was basically, you know a big silver box stunning. So it could easily have had. I mean, it looked like a weapon or bot What fast sky with you know, spiike sticking out of their machine. Yeah stop me. and I walked into the central courtyard of Buckingham Palace This is this is right. So I sort of came out and then went round and found the guards room and said, I think I'm ping Literally no one stopped me. Exactly That' Literally George Bush was going to be there That night. I mean, it's absolute and you know, it's insane Yeah ab Yeah It that's it. just if you just need one little point of entry and then often peopleople say, well, you're here, so you must be meant to be here. Yeah. You know, the guys with the machine guns with the spikes wouldn't have thought Well you have to be good at it. basically, you have to be constantly on to be good at security. Yeah some people really are. but I mean, Michael Fagan, rememember him? Yeah yeah, exactly. This was just for younger listeners. This guy climbed into the quQeens Bedroom. Yeah He got into Buckingham Palace and he just wandered in Ls like the BFG Is that where the Ralah got the story of the BFG from? because they do wake up the quQueen. I mean they go into the quQueen's bedro. Was that before after Michael Fagan I think that Fagan might have been after. So did Fagan get the idea from would be actually There was just a window open or something wasn't there? Was that or how he got in? I think Yeah. I he just wanted a story I heard and you can fact check this because I've never seen it anywhere el. You wrote The Royal Encyclopedia, I'm fact checking you. What I heard from Kevin Adams at Failland's Middlechool. Yeah was that Mike Reagan wanked in the Queen's earir told him that But like you would' make that up. You wouldn't say on in the ear it wasn't if it wasn't true, would' make that up. So I think that's what really happened. But I' been unable to corroborate it. But if you want to go I know you fact check a lot of stuff. you want to go. I feel like I'm already on enough watchlist because of my history of sort of researching weird things, you know for QI and fish and all that. I I'm not going near that Richard. Next time I come on your show, I'm going to say that's going to be my fact and you're going to have to all research it and refrit it if you can. If you can find any evidence that didn't happen. I've so far not found any evidence it did happen. You can't yeah, but you can't prove a negative You can't prove it didn't happen. They wouldn't They wouldn't talk about it. would they would would only get out They keep it quiet and one person will Yeah it's hushed up here ye. that someone would go I'm just telling you what I heard. Yeah, yeah, you shoot the messenger I think they will they will shoot you if you ever go near Bucham Palace again. Broken into Bucham Palace. Wow.al How does the Ecycopedia go in the end? Well, not very well I' get entry. I wrote the entry. The only one I actually remember writing is the entry about the Isle of Man, which was again you had about fifty words and then the Royal Connection, there was something about rolling people down hills in barrels, which I liked with spikes on the inside or some. Oh nice. Okay. And I think the I think I read the Isle of White and the Isle of Man. You didn't mix them up. I didn't. But those were the only two I really remember doing So there were places or people. It was was it about everything everything broad collections. So I've got a copy because I' found one in a chat second handand shop for. I was sort of I'm not even crediting it. I was sort of sh in disgrace for not being very good. but they did use some of my stuff. So it's that's officially my first And what year was I wrote? ninety I think I was doing in I was started writing in nineteen ninety. and then it probably came out ' ninety two, something like that. And then and then immediately It all became irrelevant Be everything everything just was just when everything sort of fell apart. I've just read the Andrew Loneoneybook about's amazing. He's been Prince And sorry, not Prince Andrew. Yeah. Andrew Andrew Land Winds and Fergie and incredible hiss eyeopping If you read the new book because there's more stuff in the paperback I haven't read the paperack. I've just I've just read the hubback. You mean to say there's more about this guy?' he's astonishing you know that and like you sort of feel I made him say that he definitely wouldn't ever commit suicide because I interview him. Yeah I interview him. And just because I feel like, you know, it's so it should bring down the royal family of that book It should absolutely like at least att least change things dramatically. Yeah. But it's so awful. Is outstanding? D you for a moment feel a bit sorry for Andrew when you read about his childhood and then very immediately not Yeah And he says, you know, he writes. Oh well I have interviewed a hundred of his colleagues from the Navy and one of them was a bit nice about him, but the other ninety nine were were're all uniformly negative. Do you think, wow, okay, that's probably telling, isn't it? I want I don't know if this is I'd made this up with my puppet by as adelb as a joke, but I think there might be something in this. I'm going to run it by you. Yeah You know how Prince Andrew looks quite like Beatrice I want to do a sort of I want to do a like Mrs. Doubtfire where Prince Andrew dresses up as Beatrice to get back into the royal family And so he can sneak into the royal family and they all alsoort of fall for it because he's so good at lying We thinking musical mean I don't know. And I think I think it would start as a play or something like that, but or a film. I'd say start as a serious play and then you can have more fun with a musical film, I think I Yeahah It will be quite and then but so then he has to play then he has to live as a as a young woman. Yeah experienced the harassment. B, but Also he learns nothing for. I wr That's basically it I've ruined it now, but that's basically it. No, no, it's good. So there's no moral learning. There no, he definitely wouldn't. I mean he is such a I mean, I just think that book that book is so irredeemablying awful and these do not contrite in any way at all. By the age of twenty five, about both of them, you're thinking we should already be in prison. Yes Definitely. And you know, she We shouldn't say anything to prejudice the trial. But she's yeah, she's I mean she the way he describes her turning from somebody' quite bubbly and fun and nice into this just Somet very very very rude. rudy, grabby and wasteful. I mean, like so wasteful. And he the stuff of peopleople cross with Meghan for selling a bit of jam. You've got no idea what what this country's seen. Yeah Yeah. Bungie the helicopter being plagiarized. Anyway, anyway, let's not give him any more sales. he's doing al right now. Absolutely. Yeah. Let's talk about your book. So let's talk a little bit about your writing method.'ve you plan quite ly right. So you know everything that's going to happen, which is not the way I write anything, which is why I don't have any novel. I tried it with my first novel. Yeah wrriting without a plan And I then had to throw away thirty thousand words. Right because I wrote thirty thousand words and then I just went into Quick Send just like, Oh, where do I go now? Well, where have I just been? Oh I don't know Yeah So then I had to stop. And it's fine to do that for a first novel because no one is waiting for it. You know no one is there's no deadline or anything like that. But it was such a nasty experience. I just thought, I can't do that again. So Everything from the second version of book O onwards I've planned out. Okay Yeah. it's because it I think as a writer you should You should work most on the thing where you feel least confident. Yeah. So I love writing dialogue, I love writing action, I love character stuff planning and plotting. is always the thing that takes most structure from me. Some people can just see it. you know, they immediately do it. I need to work it out quite carefully, you. And do you ever does it ever Do you ever kind of vary away from that if you suddenly have an idea or it do you stick to it quite rigidly? Haven't yet. Right interestnteresting. Yeah, yeah. because it's I just love I love that weirdly, I find it gives you a lot of freedom if you know broadly what happens in this scene. and for books like Bad Deeds, they're quite You know, it's a thriller. So you know there's a certain amount of information that needs to be slowly bread crumbed out and there are false leads and all of this. So you have quite a good lead on the information. If I was writing at sort of Wistful character study about you know, a young Irish woman and it's sort of coming of age story, then I might allow myself a little bit more Lsey goosey stuff ye. But as it is, I know that you've got to find out this here of here and there, you know. So yeah, that that's what I try and do. But once you have the plan You can then look around. Philip Pullman has this lovely thing of this is a path through the woods, a novel. You are allowed to look at the woods But contininue walking along the path But the things you know, you can walk through amazing scenery along the way and that's the really fun bit to add in, you know, but don't wander off the path Be you know, most hikers who are found dead within fifty meters of the path, right? Yeah. I mean I think with you of course with a book like this, you're exactly right as well because it would be insane. I mean there are think there lot are people who write murder mystery things that who do decide who the killer is going to be at the end, but I don't see how I don't see how that's possible. I think Richard Osmne has done that one of his books. I think because I interviewed him about them on stage and he said, Yeah, I had a quick change of heart at the last minute. How How have you done that? But it works. I mean, I suppose if you're you are writing somewhere there's got to be a list of suspects on Yeah. Yeah yeah. So you know everyone's got to have a a motivation or a reason. So you can sort of You can sort of change, I suppose if you want to, but I think yeah, it's Oh I wouldn't I wouldn't d. Yeah ye. And I'm also not I don't love it's not my thing I like reading, but I don't like writing books where there's a list of suspects. So you know, it's you know the real perpetrator is always the British state. So you can always tell that, you know. So the book you abandoned was the first Yeah, the last day last day of the c far. And then so you started again and you planned it out. And was any of it salvageable or was it all kind of It was quite a useful exercise because it's a big sci fi concept and it was I thought the first half is going to be kind of setting the scene of this world and a kind of history of it and the science of it and the ecology of it and how it's all changed And then the second half is a thriller set in that world. but actually It's too baggy, you know, that's asking a lot of a reader to sit through fifty thousand words of exposition before a character walks on stage You know't what you have to You have to dove tell them in neately than that. Yeah. I mean, there are some brilliant books that do that kind of incredibly like Pale Fire by Nabuakkov. is a poem with extensive notes And it's also a novel, you know. it's an incredible novel and it's biography partial like fifty pages of introduction two thousand line poem and then notes. And a plot emerges through that though. I think that's incredible. That's anime. I have not' not good. I've always wanted to write a novel that's a cookbook, but a story emerges through the cookbook. But it's really hard. Yes, of course, of course it is. Yeah. That's why we have the structure we do of a story. What I like doing is coming up with ideas that I never N that go. This is the idea I don't never have to write like Prince Andrew doing a Mrs. D f that's never gonna happen. I do the same on fish. I inevitably come up with whatever we're talking about cP And my colleagues are despairing, you know there's been daylight savings cop U It's been twwin cop Ohope, this is great. Sarate They were born thirty years apart due to IVF. you know, one was born at the time and one was frozen as an embryo, but it's born thirty years later, right? But now they're both cops. One it's his first week on the fourth and the other is one week from retirement But they're twins O of them is a lot older than the other. Yeah yeah, one's thirty years older than the other. They looks. Now tell me that's not great. That is great. Yeah, going to That' never going never going to happen. When I've only done a writ as Room onson and it made me think I'd love to do a sitcom that was all the stuff you talk about which isn't the, you know, you just end that everyone keeps on spitballing a stupid idea. would then go off and see a little bit of it being made and then come back over seven which abolly. That may be the way for me to get all these ideas. We should work together on some stuff, Rich I think because I think We'd have fun Yeah. Tiberius copy. I told you about that It turns out that the emmperor Tiberius once turned to detective because someone had fallen out of a window and there's a question of was it her father or was it her husband? and you know all of this stuff? And he turned up to the scene, decreed that six people were guilty and had them executed So he didn't really investigate the crime so much would just say you're right you six are dead. But I think that would be a fun cop drama where by day he's the emperor of Tiberius but by night he's going out being a cop. Yeah, I think that's good. Yeah good work As I mean my poor editor who has to listen to some of this stuff, you know, before I eventually turn to writing a proper novel, you know? Yeah ye. I mean these it's it's it's a chunk of a novel. It' it's a properly long book. It's, you know, like I said, I think it's it's It's a it's a read that is actually once you can sit down, it it's a really easy read and it doesn't, you know, it It might look intimidating to see that thicker book than but it flies by when you're reading it.. But is that was that a deliberate decision or just is that just the number of pages it turned out a bit. Everything has a kind of natural natural furlong, I guess, you know, and it's U Once I finish plotting, I then All right a thousand words a day for about one hundred days. So it's about a hundred thousand words, but then it gets edited down but you think of some extra you know, lines and jokes to put in. So it comes out roughly around that. But yeah, there are definitely one hundred thousand words and one hundred thousand words. You know this is you know, there's lots of chat, there's lots of fun descriptions. so I'm trying to I'm very conscious that I don't want to outstanday my welcome and, you know, I don't There are brilliant books which are two hundred thousand words. There are brillant bs are forty thousand words, you know. It's It can be anything. Yes. Yeah. No, well, it's you know, it's great. It's got You know, there's a Costa card that's, you know you're waiting to get used Cost is a key plus. It cost the dust turn to be Yeah. I'm glad to find out you did it in Costa I nearly dedicated it to the brave men and women who staff all the costteras up and down the country because they have to see a fair bit of life, you know? Yeah Yeah It's true. Yeah yeah. but it's Cheko is it Chekov's costter card, I think you'd over that's It'd be great to put that in and then never come back to it. Absolutely. S I didn't need it just at the end we go, oh Let's all have a coffee. That's actually quite good. That's really fun He survived. I'm not giving anything away. No. They might not survive. No notot everyone not everyone survived. It will make the next book quite boring if. The main characters don't survive or most of them. Yeah. I'll just check there's nothing else I wanted to talk you about. But I would look I'll ask you now while I'm thinking about it, what is there I mean, I know you read a lot, it's clear from this conversation. Is there a book at the moment you would like to recommend? that you've been reading recently that's current, maybe, but it doesn't have to be Well, I'm in a book club and we do quite a lot of Quite gloomy post Soviet stuff, All right Be A couple of us are really keen on that sort of thing. Yeah. And then we all rebelled and did a Jack Reacher. We all said you know what? we C we just do a L job instead? Yeah. And that was terrific fun. I can't remember what it's called now But StarsZland is amazing. Right. Yeah. ye. That's one of the very gloomy postsovi your. Yeah, yeah U Gosh, You've really put me on the spot there When I got married we asked for books for the wedding. Oh right. And that was five years ago and I've still got quite a few yeah, quite a few to get through. Yeah. That's a nice idea. It's really fun. I was saying this the other day I think it was in probably on this podcast But you know, like most paperbacks not don't cost much more than a birthday card. Right. And liken' that isn't that like a much better birthday. you could just write in the front of the book happappy birthday and then give someone a book Rather rather than a four pound piece of car Absolutely. Yeah. from TG Joan. Thank you. F forormally WOmith. Unless, of course you're at an airport or in the travel infrastructure where it's still WOSmith for reasons I don't understand I think because they realized that was the only bit of the business that was profitable. So they held on to that. Yeah. They've sold it to TJ Jones. I'm sure is it GG. Jones, sorry. I think they're not going out of business. They are of Jon because they made the mistake of buying a business. I think they did I mean, this could be an expert. I think they I'm obsessed with it because everyone still calls it Smiths in the same way I call open fruits open fruits Yeah but also I think it is I think it was a deliberate decision to buy this to run it into the ground. Interesting. to get rid of everything. I do want a plotline in the next one about the American candy stores. Oh yes, well that's the same thing which are largely runers. What I worry about is that W Smith started doing all the ost the post office is all moved into WSmith to save money. Yeah that happened in Shepherd's Bh. I used to write about Shepherd's Bush post off was quite inefficient. And then and the manager would come and talk to me I'd re to run the metro about it And we became friends. And then it all moved to Dt Smiths. So that's the problem And if they all if they all close down, then there's no post office. You know, were adjusting what do he said you said I don't know the way to the I just thought at the time this is fucking stupid because WS Smith's Looks to me like the kind of shop that isn't going to be going far into the twenty first century. That WS miss feels very much like a nineteen nineties, nineteen sevententyies shop to me. Yeah off the Iilk of Woolworth's. Where can the post office go? Vake shops?. Bookies? Bookies. U Vapes is probably how't they see a vapes secure for the future? Where's secure? Wheres The post office is going to be crypto now, so don't worry about it I mean, yeah, I think again, I think probably people want to run the post office into the ground and they so they can their other delivery services. I'm not trying to give you ideas for No, but you are, you are. This goes all the way to the middle the post office. So why is it so bad? Anyway, thank you very much. Look, please go out and buy bad deeds. In fact, go and buy the beginner's guide to breaking and entering first. I didn't do and I would say you don't need to read the first one. a few one. That was a key part of the strategy. but I know they're definitely I mean, you do very well to bring it up to speed. I imagine there's a few there's a few characters who I'm coming back to guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.. So you don't need to, but I think you should because this is, you know, I didn't I think you should I think you should bu first of all byy a beginner's guide breaking and entering and then buy this and then read both of them. And, you know