Book Recommendations and Closing Thoughts

Hi, Richard Herring here. Thanks for downloading my podcast. Now you may have heard on the gown upp news that I've not been very well. I'm feeling fine I'm sort of in the middle of treatment C very minor cancer. It's not curable, but it's completely treatable. So please don't worry about me. In the meantime, if you want to become a badger, this is an excellent time to support us at go faststrike. com slash badges. if you would like to buy a thank you Moriati t shirt from Rich and Alley's Craven News round, then head too fastter Stripe. com. and you should be able to find them on there. They're only going to be available for a couple of weeks print them all up at once when we find out what the demand is But if you enjoy that podcast, particularly, that's a great way to pay us back for that Look, I've still come to the Edinburgh fringe unless something that goes horrifly wrong in August I think that to the sixteenth and Go to ridichchain. comash for Hallispurg. you can see all the dates and the guests confirmed so far whoo are Mike Was't at Susie McCabe and Flo and Joan. there are some big names to come, I'm sure. I'm aiming very high with this and I will be giving some recommends of people you should be going to see at the fringe through interviews over the next few weeks as well Anyway, thank you very much Let's sit back. 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Get started at acast dot com slash advertise Hello welcome to another Rahhala Stubber book club. I've nearly said my own podcast wrong there do RHLSTP. This week I've been reading all over the last month actually Naste Motherfuckers. I'm going to sayve the fuckers. Thank you. I love you saying that that Kie Peter. I'm assuming that's what the asterid It is. I think that is what we're supposed to extrapolate from that very subtle conceit. Yes. so Yes. Hello Kelly. Hello nice to see you. Nice see you again. You've did a Edinburgh podcast with me all of you years. We had a very jolly time, didn't we? Here we are in my hometown. So thank you. Thank you for coming to London just for me. I appreciate it. That's my pleasure. So I've gone back to John Robins. I'll go to you So on behalf of Jhn Robin. Let's talk about Jon Robins first againg for another ninetighty minute. So look well this is your first book. I'm surprised to hear. What because I'm so old? I think just because you're quite prolific. Well, I always knew I had a book Eone's got a book in them, haven't they? And I actually said I was going to write a book as did many during lockdown. That's when I said I was going to write a book. And I took a long time. I'm an epic procrastinator But actually I was really glad that I waited to write the book when I wrote the book because it wouldn't have been this book if I'd written it six years earlier. And it's sort of all, as I think many authors say, and it's still really weird to think I might call myself an author. But when the bits that when I read it back and when I read the audio book, the bits I loved, al I almost couldn't remember writing and I would like to say I did write it. but that thing that they say that you should be surprised by your own writing if you're writing well. and I was sort of surprised by came out with this book and I realized as with many things, as with shows we do and conversations we have, it came At the moment it was meant to come.. It wasn't just that I procrastinated for six years. I think it's quite nice as a writer. sometometimes you'll go back and read something you know that you only just started or you abandoned be just you know, you can't believe youed at your own brilliance. You can't believe you wrote it. He go why did I why did I stop writing? Yeah. and, you know, because it's You know, there's a dis I suppose you disconnect a little bit when you're writing as well. and I think for the writing really to work, you've got's a same of comedy when it really works, you're sort of almost, you know It's drawing in from somewhere else almost, it feels like, doesn't it?' sort of on Definitely my pattern and it was my daughter who pointed out that it was a very clear pattern I left it very late to actually write the book after I'd got the deal. and I had lunch with my editor and I said, O could could somebody sort of in your office just give me really clear deadlines for each chapter because I'm not very good with that deadlines And then then came this email from her assistant say, basically I had three weeks per chapter. and I was like, Wh. So that was a great leveller. And I then did everything I could to clear the decks. I' still doing some other work, but to write it And my daughter happened to be with me. She lives in Madrid, and I wrote some of it over in Madrid I invited her to come and write it when I was in pretty places writing. So she was with me probably for four or five of the ten chapters across those nine months. And every chapter was the same trajectory, which was the first week I would spend hating myself, vaguely gathering information mentally in dog walks, sort of thinking, am I going to ever have a chapter? Second week I'd write an awful chapter And then the and I think, well, this is hopeless. I'm going to have to give the advance back. And then the third week it would become something. And it happened just like clockwork, but every time when I was in that second week I just thought, well, you can't write. And was I'm sure you've heard the Richard Osmond quote. he said to me long before I hadd written this book, but when he was writing his first book and he said, you know, get it down. than get it good. Y And such a relief to know that all authors do it. So what I tried to tell myself was it's not your job to write anything good today. It's just your job to write today. And then I could and I had to allow myself the possibility what I was writing was the crappiest book that had ever been written in order to write it. I thought if I've actually got to sit and write a good book, I'm never going to get off the starting blocks But it is but it's a big thing to even just sit down and do the writing. I think it is, you know, that's my I mean, a lot of us are procrastinated Iness and I think it's very rare for to get a writer who does go Here I am working for my three Rll Dahlw work for two hours in theorning two hours in the afternoon, I think Katie was telling me. Yeah But you know, just like sat down and found a comfy chair and just wrote everything. He wasn't I do also think that there is not that I want to bring the privileged white man so early in our conversation. But when you hear about authors who did that, it's like, when he wasn't doing the laundry, he wasn't walking the dog, he wasnt clean in the toilet, he wasn't calling the plumber. So I also do sometimes think when I live alone and on the one hand, that's really helpful for writing because I can write at whatever hour I like. I'm beholden only to myself But I also think anything that he's doing needs to happen. and I know I am a procrastinator, but I genuinely found that every day there are so many things that I actually really do have to do today that aren't writ in my book. So whenever I hear people say, Ohh yes, I leave the house at seven in the morning and I sit in a cafe until eleven and write. and I think, well, who's doing all the other stuff there that's happening in the house? I think you look at certain comedians who do like a sitc a book at three, four TV series're sorry for their partner. How you doing this When are youre seeing anyone? are you doing the school run I'm same but then I just kind of give myself Additionalasks like writ a blog, I do like a stupid thing with a p bit every and keep giving myself extra work to do. Talking of prolific, Yeahah, your output. I mean, my output is slack comppared to your output. It's leisurely, slack and sleepy. But is it quality or quantity that we're going for? You're doing both. I'll say that on behalf of all people. It's nice to throw everything out then and see a bit of shit that sticks, we'll see how that goes. So look, subtitled a mododern mananifesto for Keeping Cool when you're a hot mess. Yes. So I mean it's sort of, I mean, it's a book that I really enjoyed it and I got a lot out of it. I think it's probably a book that is aimed at Middle aged women principally? Is that fair to say? Well, yes, and it's interesting, isn't it? Be the reason I actually wanted to write the book was from my perspective as someone who had reinvented in a sort of an unlikely way at an unlikely time and in a messy way. So I thought I can write to the topic of being ambitious in your reinvention, which is not the same as being perfect in your reinvention about defying stereotypes, know whoever we are, we have things that annoy us, whether it's about the way in which people perceive us and assume things, whether it's because of our age, our gender, the color of our skin. And I also I' spent many, many years after sort of my reinvention from boardrooms. I then spent years being a motivational speaker, a sort of funny Ted talkal type person. And actually I thought, what I do in that? It is funny, but it's got a lot of substance and it's got takeouts and people seem to really find it helpful and go off and actually do some of these things. I thought there's got toa be a way to chuck all of that into a book And then it really was when you know what it's like when you're when it was someone actually' funding you to write a book. When I got a good literary agent, she said two things. first because the b, the idea I had wasn't really quite the same as this idea. So she said, you've got to make it, you've got to call it Namastday Motherfuckers. you have a brand. It's a great title. People know you for it And she also said, we need to be really clear about who we're aiming this at and so it got more midlife women. I mean, in the Dutch version, one of my many useless talents is that I speak Dutch. And so I've got a big following in the Netherlands. So I got a really good deal for the book in the Netherlands and they've gone really big on the Menopause Angl's actually got m Menopause in the title We rewrote some bit. So for them, it was like a menopause manifesto. It's actually a book that, as you know, because you've read it, actually all the things in it are pretty relevant to anybody. but they don't let you just go, It's a book for anybody. although I wish I had because that's what let them is and that's done quite well. So yes, it definitely it has my experience as a midlife woman at its heart And I would be lying if I didn't say that when I'm doing my tour at the moment, I'd say seventy percent of my audience are midlife women. Yes, whichich makes them very lovely shows, I must say.. because I worked on Jenny Cclair's Grumpy old women know what was it called? Was it called Grumpy oldld women the show? I can't remember what it was called. I got paid quite well for working on it I shouldn't know what it's called I think it was rebay. I think it was Grumfield women. but that audience was entirely made up of en, you know, middle ag women. nice amazing and just the for it up for it and the laughs you got out Yeah I remember I went to thing Winchester and I sat in the top the noise that was coming up was actually quite terrifying, I have to sayes I do look at the few men scattered around my audiences and I have a bit in the show to make them know they are welcome, supported and part of our tribe. So yes, a friend of mine, I did shows in Ireland last week and a good friend of mine in Dublin came to the show and after it, she went She well it's more of a cult than an audience, But the ground is so soft with my audiences because they know me from Instagram or whatever, they've read the book, And I have to remember when I just do this circuit now and I walk in and it's people who don't care midlife where Oh yes,, I've got to make you laugh. Whereas for my audienceces are like, Yes,. So obviously this started as a podcast. the thing as a side note, which just has occurred to me because this happened to me Have you found that putting a swear word in the title has made it harder to put in bookshops because I did a book called Talking Cck, which I got a big advance for. and then when it came to the time to sell it, suddenly the publishers went very quiet and it didn't really get put in shops and I think they werear I' been in shops but not in shop windows as much, which is a shame. And although actually my books also come out in Spanish I said my daughter lives in Madrid and she and her boyfriend have taken it upon themselves that every time they go past a bookshop, they get my pile of books which are in the self help section or whatever and they put them in the windows Right O the big shop. So my book is and they're very good. They're right because they're young people. they're out all the time. So my book is always in a shop window in Madrid. That's good. Sadly, I don't have people to do it. As long as the people running the bookshop know where it is because they' might go, well we've run that. We haven't been a go. I do always say to the ne a couple, you they just keep ordering them. they actually had one and then there was some kind of immunity strike in Madrid and they'd put it in the big Cast D Libber on Gran Via and something shut down all the shops on Grnd Via for three days, so my book ended up for three days. in absolute pride of place. So I think that's the answer. Just go put your book. Justver li want. They didn't have any copies of in the bookshops so I could take my own copies in that's what. Yeah I should buy my own copies, put them in the book then it becomes literally a charitable endeavour, which it feels like anyway But no one tells you how many books you have to sell before you make your advance back and actually make money do they? don't I've never made my advance back on any book I've ever done. Not that I should be saying that it's not a great ide book Rndom house. You didn't mean that. That was just hilarity. But yes, I do think that what I have found is some people are obviously it's not everywhere that you can say the title. someone I've been doing promotion on TV or on radio or whatever. they sort of And some people are really funnyed. they won't even say NamMast day MF because they're like people could whereas on Lse ends this weekend, they said, Iot what they called it, but they said other truckers or something So And I thought, well, if radio four can do that, everyone can. But I sort of think it's as I don't think it's set me back in terms of it being it probably has stopped it being in shop windows, but it's been in shops. Yeah. But then I think you get a luck a little bit of A little bit of a wow factor from it being a rude title as well. So I think know if people do see it they'll go, Ohh that you know, I think's you would buy that off the title, I think even if you didn't know anything. I mean I would because I love the title. I would It's a strong title. but I think they do I didn't realise it gets put in self help section. I knew I'd written what they call as, you know, a memoir plus. and I'd been asked if I wouldd put takeouts in and everything. and then the week it came out in hard back last year My editor called me when the results came in the chart, saying, Oh, you've made the top ten Sunday Times bestseller. And I was like, go, that's amazing. She went in you're the number one self help book in the UK right now. And I said, have I written a self help book? Because I didn't really think I didn't think of it as a self help book, but I guess I mean, I guess it is. I mean I think, like you say, I dont mind it being one? It's a number of things. Yeah. I mean it is quite I would have found it hard to classify. I thought I guess self help would be. Did it help you? Did it help me? Okay, come a little lie right lie. Maybe it did make me think about a lot of things you know, so I think it is, you know, I don't know whether The thing with self help books is, you know If they worked, there wouldn't be any, would there? No, that's true. That's true. So you're reliant on people. It's like diet books. if they work, there would only be onees. Y. And there won't be any we know it. won't. Maybe there'll be a pill that will make us will self help us and then there won't be any self help Because soon there won't be any diet books. I tried to write diet book called All Diet books are full of shit ne one or two pages long people like a little manifesto Yeah. But you take the self out? Be I even though I as many have spent my life sort of wondering about, you know, weight and body and stuff, would I wouldn't take a diet pill, even though I'm aware of how many people now are taking the you know, taking as. And I similarly I don't think I'd take the self out No I want the suffering. I want the Buddhist approach. Well as a comedian, we don't, I'm very nearly I in fact ordered some some stuff for the diet thing then I decided against its not cheap either It isn't cheap. And then they sent me the second lot, which I didn't want and I still had to pay for that. so. It also I don't know about you, but I think part of the reason that I you know fluctuate up and down with all of this stuff is because I really like food.. And what it does is stop you stop you from being able to eat and I think, well that would make my life much less fun Because I enjoy eating. I it kind of it dulls all your wants a little bit I'vead. And as I've talked to someone who's had it and they you know, it works But it also just just douullles everything a little bit. so not it' just it doesn't just stop your desire to eat food, which again,,' I was thinking well, I want to e know, I want to enoy my I want to eat or just try toat healthy food occasionally not eatalthy food. It's funny how many people don' mention they've taken it as well. don't they I've got couple friends suddenly s of dropped like five dress sizes and then we go out for food and they can't even sort of eat a salad. and I think it will clearly, clearly something's happened to as I happily hoof through their salad and my salad and the chips But no I wouldn't take the self help girl. I want to know I would. I wouldn't and I think but no, I think this book it does make you know like I think like It's, I think You're probably a little bit like me, I think in that we're both sort of careering towards our sixties and I just cann're a bit faster than. I cannot a little bit faster. I cannot get my head around it at all. No at all I'll be doing a show about turning sixty. But it's just like it's fifteen and forty, and even then it was like it's a of a you know, bit of a jo fifty was bit but sixty just seems like some sort of brick wall. It sort of does, although I will say this as a little ray of hope to us both. So in the tour show, I've worked out how to as one does, you know, I didn't want to just be someone who the second half just read from the book So I've kind of rewrote bits of the books. It looks like I'm reading them from the book, but they are more stage ready and sort of stand up. They are at the heart, what's in the book and I do bits of stand the first half is pure standard But I start the second half by doing crowd work with people who are in their sixties and above. So the first half of the show has lots of hilarity about midlife womanhood among other things. And I say, who are the women in their sixties and above? And then I chatter two or three of them And we invariably, I've done probably a hundred of these shows now, we invariably get A people saying things get better, things just do keep getting better. And this and I've only got so many fucks left to give and I give and I love my sixties. And we also always get just brilliant stories and energies. and there's something about that So that is and and I'm very often much older than this, excuse me. There was a ninety two year old woman in the front row of a show I did And she'd been going sitting in the front room. her husband had died ten years earlier and they thought they'd always sat in those two seats. And the venue thought what a shame. she won't come anymore. She just kept coming. And she was amazing. And every time she would come and it just all it actually made me really reframe I end the show and a reading that is about the liberation of this sort of life stage. So I feel quite I do feel quite excited by it in a way. I mean, my dad's eighty two and still working as a musician even with a stage for cancer diagnosis, and he reinvented in his forties And I look at how he lives his life and what he's able to do as a man of eighty two Be of that, I think if you want your life to keep getting bigger as you get older then it is quite full of possibility. I mean, obviously on paper, it's shit. sixty we had a load of mates over for dinner last night and my son's back, my twenty nine year old son's back with his girlfriend And then everyone was talking about their sixtieth birthdays. And my son was kind of like, well he hadn't sort of thought he was at a table with loads of people in their sixties. and suddenly he was like obviously sounded really old to him. But I think there is And it is a bit different for men and for women. I think Obviously without you know the fertility thing goes away very markedly for women, which I think is extremely liberating in lots of ways. sure not everyone would agree with me, but I think it is. And then I think there's also this thing where you were told you were meant to be invisible. You start to get underestimated in your forties and fifties as a woman And then you could just sort of reclaim it. there's something'm finding I'm feeling less invisible as I'm pitching towards sixty than I did at fifty. I think you know you care so much less about. know I think what's interesting about all these things and a few of the books have been reading sort of about getting older You know, the kind of ambitions you have when you're young compared to when you're older and what what's sort of important, you could tell, you know, you can tell young people to that we weren't looking at sixty year olds when we were thirteen and going, Oh we must include them and make sure they're not. And so you're never going to get that the thirty year olds are never going and they won't. So when you get the sixties and you go, Ohh, why is't no pay attention to me? but they haven't. But yeah, I mean, I think you're just your your what you want to have life completely changes, you know, you sort of you feel better about the way things have gone, you know, I sort of just realiz that the ambitions I had in my twenties, if they'd come true, I wouldn't be here anymore. Yeah. and also, you know I wouldn't have aimed for really any of the things I've got, but equally I sort of feel very content with Well, you know, I want' to say any of the things I I would have aimed to hopefully have a family at some point. But you know, I sort of did that late and it's, you know, I feel very lucky to have all the things I've got at the moment, I think, and the way things have gone, but equally, I give much less of a far While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it No one accidentally listens to a podcast for forty five minutes. They choose to be here. They trust the voice in their ears, and when that voice talks about your brand, it doesn't sound like advertising. It sounds like a recommendation from a friend. ACast gives you that trust at scale. Digital precision, host read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked Don't fight for attention. Buy it with Acast Learn more by visiting acast. com slash advertise. I think it's, you talk about taking the piano again. and I've been thinking about getting I used play the euphonium at school, but I haven't played one forty years again. Well the forty years is the magic plan to pick it back up because I mean, I'm playing in the Ludlow piano festival this week with my piano playing. So let's hope I have learnted it again. And I've started because I did this Pottery show where you, you know, sam. And I really like the art part of it and I always hated art and was thought I was no good at it And I've just sort of started, I'm not doing clay but I'm doing started doing little sketches and things which I'm sort of just it's it completely for myself And you know, I'm impressed with myself because the level I thought I was at is so low that anything above that would be incredible But you know, just doing those things where you go, actually, I'm just going to step back and do something that I would never have done or something that isn't for anything Um And I think,ah I think that's I mean, the reason I do a lot these stupid things I do is just because they're fun rather than this is going to lead anywhere at all. which in the past I wouldn't have I'd have thought well, how can I translate this into something that mayould I monitize?. And now I'm thinking it's just fun to do this because it's stupid. Well they also if you think about the creative process, it is true to say that while your brain's busy learning a new thing, you might it does help all the other things. I mean, I definitely notice that when I have my piano lessons now And this never happened when I was a child playing the piano. I've technically now probably got about as good as I was when I was eleven, but I was very good when I was even. So I'm happy with that So I reckon I probably I did all my grades as a child and I probably am a grade eight pianist again now, which is not bad because two years ago I really, really wasn't. But the bit that my fingers are slightly more I really do have to do my scales and stuff. everything's not quite as agile as it was. but the bit that I find is if I have an hour piano lesson and the kids who come to my teacher after school are getting half an hour, but I'm sure as a child when I was properly learning musical And by the end of it, it's my brain that's hurting when I learn a new piece to get my brain to just compute, so my fingers can do it, but I'm just like, what? And I get absolutely shattered after about an hour of really focusing on this. And I think it's the same bit of your brain that you use for languages and maths, isn't it But I said to my piano teacher, is it sort of proven to help you stay young mentally should ye I It's one of the really important things. So do I just notice that it's And Iic similarly with learning you know, I learned to speak Dutch when I was in my early twenties and I became fluent in Dutch, and I still am But trying to learn Spanish in my fifties now that my daughter's living in Spain and seems to want to stay there. doesn't I just't I don't know if it's like I'm being lazy or my brain's just like, I'm tired. No more languages. I'm just about hanging onto the original one. I think you know, it' hard for the brain. But you know, you're right that all these things like look the minute again, I'm hard even done any art. But the minute you start doing it, you start looking at things in a completely different way. You start noticing the light and just what objects, you know, just in literal terms of going, oh actually there's some lamp posts in my street that I've never actually looked at noticed were there. You know, so you just it does give and comedy so much about observation and you it's all writing, isn't it? L the bit that I when Grayson Perry came on my podcast and he at the time was doing his stage shows as if he needs to not leave anything for the rest of us. And he said the thing he most liked about it was that it was a receptacle for things forever because he had the stage show that he was he was always writing things that he thought would be useful. And when I'm in engaged in a project, you know I was really awake at the wheel when I was writing this book and I was really sort of properly engaged in everything I read, heard, saw and I always was writing notes and was gathering things thematically and just seeing the world through wide awake young kind of eyes, young curious eyes And I'm really I write my second book. and I'm quite looking forward to that bit of the gathering the information and having something and that's the nice thing about we do as podcast hosts is you sort of have to just for that week, you become an expert in that person or their thing. And there's something quite it's quite nice. you're learning. It's like you're doing a GCSC. You've just done a GCSC and Kali beat. What an awful way to spend the last few weeks. But no you know, and also what my podcasts may because I think it' It's very easy within being comedian and anything creative and anything where, theren't as sort of structure by which you're promoted. You know, just that there's a lot of luck and fortune in Who gets to the next stage and whatever. But actually when you talk to lots of people and look at what they've done and read their work, you go, oh actually that person is working really hard and doing amazing stuff. So you know, there's so many the thing you ree with this book and as you know you're reading lots of people's books, there's so many books out there and you know, the chances of any of them popping above the to the level People will be reading them on the tube or whatever. you'll see lots of you will be on the best selling list. It's so unlikely to get. It's so hard. And Helen Lederer said to me but just before my book came out and she said, when you bring out a book, she said it's like drowning in a sea of hope, whichich I feel we should all be given on a t shirt by our publisher. Yeah. I mean it'll be like that this week, you know whatever day it is But anyway, I've got my paperwk's about to come out and I will end up it'll just be a really odd day because the paperback's are out, no one cares. I'll walk into whatever the local booksh is wherever I'm on tour and they won't have it. I'll be like, o, okay. And it's a very odd thing. And I think you also have to be The compare and despair thing is rife in our industry and it's so hard not to get upset by things that are on billboards and in newspapers and because there's always some angle where we're like, yes, well I didn't get that or that person looked at me funny backstage. There's always that. And I think somehow it's very hard when we're doing what we're doing, which is mainly sort of solo endeavourors, but also to remember how well we have done. And if and I always try to think with this book I'm really, really proud of this book. I stand behind it and I'm really glad I wrote it and I'm glad it's going to exist. and that in its own right is an amazing thing. And if you told me that And those many moments when I was sitting going, well, I'm definitely not an author and I need to call and give the money back. I'd have said if you'd said to me, but you're going to write a book you're really proud of, I'd have thought that was absolutely enough in its own right. So it's quite important to remember that. It is important. and this is really a book that I know you'll have already had this, You know, people come and say that really helped me or that got me through. I get a lovely re. I have a very en I'm very lucky that even though social media can be a bit of a cess pit, but my particularly my Instagram community of women are just amazing and they're so engaged. and the conversations I have, you know, I'm sure you've had this many times, but in the book Q book signingQ afterwards, that' just some incredible pretty much every show I do. there'll be one or two or three really quite magical moments either while I'm on the stage doing crowd work or conversations afterwards. And I think, well, isn't that incredible? that even if it's only those people who've liked it, that's pretty good. Well it is you know, I think especially with the my cananza books because obviously like a few a few people discovered they have cancer as a result of re sub saved their life. I've just helped people get the right HRT. But yeah, absolutely. after doing that show and doing you know, and the book You get so, you know, so many people want and I think that's the important thing about this and what I love about this and a lot of books that comedians are writing, I think, because we are You know, you do put it all out there, which and the reason that's unusual is because most because we sh. most people won't talk about it. So just the fact that you've gone and talked about your personal experience, people come up and tell me incredibly incredibly intimate and you know, sometimes tragic but sometimes heartwarming stories about their lives. and they've got this all inside them bubbling up wanting to tell someone you know and this gives them the opportunity to tell their story as well, which is I think is important. And I think also just the idea of imperfection. I think people sort of assume when they see what we do that we're immensely confident and we must really back ourselves And we've got some sort of superpower that enables us to stand on a stage or write a book or create things. And I think it's really reassuring. I notice it on the motivational speaker circuit. know A lot of people are going up there talking about how they scored the winning goal at whatever it was or climbed up Everest on one leg in a tweed suit. and that's great. but most of the people in the audience are going to just feel shit about themselves because they'll be like, I can't even walk up the escalator at the tube So I think if you've got people who are willing to help you think how you might do different things, but also from the perspective of going, well, actually my life's pretty messy ill I think that personally, I find that more appealing. I sort of want to think everyone's having a bit of a shit time. Yeah. and I think don't want to speak to. That is the important thing about this book that it isn't like you' sort ofug No, it's anu. It's not a redemptive tale. And you know we're all still scrambling our way through this existence, but you know I think it's It is nice to just have have the opportunity to think about things And to think I find it interesting because there's things that I don't know whether it's just me. There's lots of things that women say only happen to women. and one of them is in your book is turning up a gig and not getting into your own gig. Yes. have you I've had had Do you see there's a brilliant example where George Michael can? Yes, I did, I did Yeses.'s aame That's the ninja level Yeah. That's an amazing Gtenam award. How is that possible? But yeah I have had that but not I have to say not for a while. occasionally, you know someone's going who with you you know, you can't have've had a and it's very difficult to deal with isn't it? Because you either go Well you have to let me in and then there it turns into an argument Yeah. or you just skulk away, which I think you. Yeah, also you sort of feel like going well at the point which I'm not in my dressing room. I meant be on stage, you go and explain. You get out there and do your best one for the audience. Yeah, I think there are and we only really notice the things that happen to us from our perspective of the demographic we're in, right? So my lived experience is as a midlife woman. So I did notice I was saying to someone the other day about the fact that I don't one of the things I miss is thoseose serendipitous, lovely, sparky conversations that you just have, you know, you sitting next to someone on a train or you're at a cafe or you know walking through the park and something, notot necessarily flirty, but just you're relevant. People sort of notice you, you're a person. And I said, just Ive realized that's completely absent from my life now and then actually ever since then, Whver like today just getting a coffee coming here, the guy was chatting away and I was like, o no that's I think I maybe had started exuding something more shut offff because actually yeah, now I do seem to be having those sparky nice fun conversations just like I always did actually. I think that's really interesting because like I, you know, like before I met Katie especially a couple of years before at KT I just had, you know, I was suddenly, I understood everything and I could pretty much date anyone.one wanted to d. And people were, you know, and I was getting asked out and stuff, which never really happened. And do you think that is then the minute I met the minute I started, you know, started dating Katie, that Pretty mum, Is think entirely dried up But I was pretty much then. so I was obviously giving off something I was giving off something that Well, I don't know what I'm giving off, but I've been single for two years. whatever it is, it's rancid and no one's interested. But I do think there's I think you can that's I mean, it sounds kind of naf and self helpy. and God forbid anyone would write a self help book. But I think the idea of getting out of our own way, you can have these assumptions about yourself or assumptions And we get so much stuff thrown at us whoever we are. life is not easy. It's unprecedentedly difficult for everyone at the moment And the last thing we want to be doing is stuck in our own head where we can absolutely have the thoughts. I still have the very difficult intrusive thoughts. But the whole point of the book is, yeah, have those fine, but take them with you. When people say to me, how do you sort of cure imposter syndrome? I say, Well, you don't, I just take it with me. I've got it with me all the time. But I don't let it stop me getting on a stage or writing a book know it's there and that's okay. It stops me being a narcissist or a psychopher. God bless it. But yeah, I mean I think you get to the point where you realise that and it's not everyone because some people I think think that much about it or just do breeze through life in a narcissistic way. And I've ded all of them now. so there are none left. But I think most of us said you know, you sort of realize that. although I think even if you acknowledge you've got imposter syndrome That is still you're acknowledging it's a syndome and that it isn't real thing. I just feel like I'm in an There are people who are actual imposters are't so you know, for that to work. I look at some other people and think you are just a chancell who's got away with this. and I often feel that about myself. Well in a way, but I think that's also that's just humility in a way, isn't it? To sort of think I think to know that we're not some special person put on this earth to be the only person who could do a good podcast or a book and that lots of people can and do, I think it's not a bad thing. I don't know if it I don't know if it's the same for you, but I don't know whether it's an imposter thing or a feeling either less than or other than. Like I think I just never really felt I belonged. and I still get really racked with Oh I'm some sort of weirdy that just can't do things other people can do. Not in a fun o, I'm so creative and different, but more like, whyy can't I just do that thing that other people do? And I wonder how much there's an overlap between belonging and thinking you're good enough because being and again, I've got all the talk. I just find it hard to walk the walk sometimes. I think sometimes if you feel a bit different from people around you You think that you're less than them. And that need not be the case. But it's quite hard to sort of confidently think I don't really quite fit him, but that's not because I'm not worthy of being here. and maybe it makes us nice people. Yeah. I' sort of finding your own trybe, but also I know I'm very bad you know, socially. I don't really have tons of friends. I've got some friends, but I'd never really se them now. you know, and I find that and I think I just got to the point where I was scared to you know, I hate that when someone would come and impose themselves on a conversation who wasn't wanted there and I never wanted to be that person. So you know, you'd out of excessive caution, I would sort of withdraw in case I was upsetting the people who were talking to me in case they didn't want to talk to me. So I think there's a lot of insecurity in there. I mean I think I'm sort of over it, but I sort of onnce once you haven't got those, once you it is about sort of being different and thinking about differently and then and overthinking And then of course a lot of comedians then have neurological issues as as well as on top. If they need a show out of it, they say they have know we've all done that. Well, I've tried. I did this I got invited along to a book launch last week and I definitely note I'm quite shy. I find it much easier, like I'm much more confident talking in this forum with a microphone than I would be if you said join a to sit of a coffee, I'll like o, that's a weir You know, because I just am, and I think we all are. But I'm trying to push myself a bit. And I got invited to a book launch the other day and I just got off a plane and I was like, I don't know I wt even go. And I thought, no go, just just bloom and go to it. I knew it was going to be a s certain scene of people and I might not know anyone apart it from the author. And I walked in and said a quicklyow to the author and then sure enough was standing completely on my own and everybody was engaged in things. And I just thought I dont. And then I just thought, no, I sow it. I'm just going I don't care No one's looking at me going why she stood on her? And then sure enough within about one minute, somebody really interesting came over to me and said, Oh, and I thought, you know, me two years ago, I'd have sort of insisted on clinging onto a group who might not have wanted me. And actually I ended up having a really interesting evening. because I just thought, well who cares if anyone sees me on my own? It's not my fault, I don't know anyone. But again, isn't I would just bolt in that's such. ten so I wouldate know and I still find that very difficult. It's hard. Well, of course it's hard, isn' I bolt a lot of the time. Well as human beings, we didn't evolve by sort of being on our own in a room in a pack and nobody talking to us. we sort of needed But I just I think if you when we realize no one actually cares Yeah, I mean as much as much as we care about ourselves, and no one's going to go away from that book event going on, didid you see Kalie Beaton was on her ownone for forty five seconds with a glass of water? That looks weird. I mean, and if they are, well But you know, and also just throughout my twenties I would just be home on my own because I was too scared to go out or I'd left somewhere early and you nothing's going to happen to you if you're at home on your own. So you might as well stay out and hope that you meet someone to be friends with or whatever or to talk to. But if you leave, you're definitely not going to meet someone to talk. how you feel? I don if you find this increasingly, I'm really aware of it with all the experiences I do because I find it increasingly hard to rev myself up to the point of doing things, not in terms of energy, but there's something about confidence or shyness or something that's happened. Maybe it's just being a bit more honest with myself than I used to be. But then I do always think I never it's very rare I regret that I used to say this to myself I used to run marathons and you never regret having gone for a run. You might not want to go for the run. And there's very few of these things where you, coming away from having gone to that book launch, it was unlikely I was going to go, well, I wish I'd never set foot in the place, whereas if I'd not gone, I might have sort you know so I'm happy to say no to things as well But yeah I very much relate to that idea of the sort of not impostory no one's going to want to talk to me. I was even after having people around for dinner last night, I thought, o God, I I think I was really boring. and I think was and I like they all came for dinner. they got a free food, They a lovely dinner. Why am I thinking that? I think it's usually okay. But you and I do think you're right that most people are questioning themselves in the same way. And if they're not, I think it's kind of weird. They're Yeah you see them but if you had the experience, I'm sure you have where I've had it a few times where you're backstage And there may be somebody that you know, you know who they are and they have a certain demeanor. But sometimes there'll be someone I've never sort of come across before. and they've got the most immense swagger and confidence. And I think, God, they must just be amazing. I just don't know who they are. And then they get on stage, have a diabolical gig and then come off with the same swagger. Yeah. And I think, oh wow. so you're literally going through your life being completely shit at this but acting as if you're the next, you know, whoever it is. You really see it with comedians. either the really brilliant ones are like that and have a right to be like that And sometimes they're not sometimes they aren't swaggering off stage on they're brilliant but you see that level of confidence in the great ones and the abolutely. Asolute worst ones. Yeah And they both have that kind of belief. And I think you need that belief to really push her in such But but equally, I mean, the amazing thing about comedy and anyone tal about comedy all the time is we're consistently assessed by every part having're having our midterm review every night. unless you can ignore that thatat no wass laughing and pretend they are laughing which They must do that though were they really but I've seen some very awkward gigs where it properly sort of stunk out of the room and you think how did you And think are you just doing that to style it out? And I think No, I think you are going to go home happy you. Happy with that? I think that was an immense gift. I mean it doesn't make a good c. but it must make you very sleep very easy at night. So let let's talk a little bit more about those I mean, there's loads in the book. Obviously, I mean you do have this, you know, there's lots of interest things about you about your own journey that you were this kind of high flying executive in TV. I did have a judge learning whichich most people would think, okay, this is great. Which was it I mean, like it feels like you're able to do quite a lot of things that you want to do now as a an older person which is presumably is because you managed to accrue a bit of money from doing. Are you saying that board career funded my hobby? No, Well, do you know what the sort of because I was when I gave up boardroom life and been I mean, I'd been working since I was sixteen Yeah and self supporting since I was sixteen. So I'd done a really good long innings of pretty relentless hard work And I'm still not afraid of hard work. although I prefer it to be slightly less hard sometimes But I did realize I did still need to earn money. So I'd been the sole supporter of my kids. Yes. So I had actually not got I was with a friend the other day who had a very similar career to me but didn't have kids. And she was like, but you must have earned the money. And then we worked out that I'd spent about two million more than her. over I was like, that'll be why. That'll be why you've got the beach house in Deal and the townhouse in Chuswick I don't have those things. But so I did need to earn money. But what I did realize is that if first of all, when yeah, when I gave up that job, I was willing to downsize and completely change everything if I had to. I didn't want to, but I would have done it But also I thought, well, all that stuff I'd done for thirty years it was still relevant. know, I was a very capable person in another world. and it was an ex agent actually who was a mate, and I'd known her from my telly days. And she said, you do know what you could do. She was the one who said the corporate stuff. She said, I love you because you've got a proper businessy message and you've got credentials and you're funny. And't no corporate speakers are funny. And you'll be great. And I was immensely grateful. It was actually someone at Noel Gay Louise Fenton at Noel Gay Television, who's my first agent. And I oe Lou a huge debt of thanks because she got set me up with all these corporate bookers And then I was like, oh, as well as do my stand up and writing and podcasting. So I still my living is made out of corporate speaking. Right. I mean, I do make a bit off the tour, but as you know, it's not what people think it is, especially because I have a set and a tour manager. So that's the whole margin, God. So really, yeah, And I think that's kind of partly why I wanted to write the book because it's really easy to say Well, I can't do this because I've got financial responsibilities or I can't do this. I wish I'd done it.. I used to look at people doing what I now do and think, o I might have done that. What shame? that I miss that I sort of didn't get on that train. and then and then you sort of can still get on that train. And like asing who knows where your art or or your pottery or whatever it is you're doing or if you to start doing music again. You're not doing it to get somewhere But actually something quite remarkable might come out of that where you say, Oh God, if I hadn' taken that fork in the road, I wouldn't now be this person and that can happen. it can happen. I mean I think if you're doing something you love and want to do, that's the most important thing. it is great to change. I did was I was sort of working on a routine about this, but I have realized when people say it's never too late to change or to do something new or to be a success I looked into it and there aren't many people over sixty. When they do that when they do those lists of Morgan Freeman, became an actor late in life fifty. and you go there's there's the only person is that I could find older than me Was Colonel Sanders started started doing KFC when he was sixty two Captain Tom Captain Tom one. I don't know if walk around the garden Cat. Sone said Harold Chhipman, but he started at twenty nine. so it was good by the time he got found out. Well I think Richard Herring will be the one. But also we are getting you know in our sixties we're younger than people were twenty years ago in their sixties. So I think and also it may be a bit like, you know if you read much of history, women don't feature in it, but not they weren't doing incredible things But they just weren't written about. Maybe no one wrote about the amazing people in their sixties coming whatever it is. But no I do still There is a point where it's too l that. That's I'm going say. There is a point where it's too l. Do do you think? Yeah, Well just before you're about to die? or yeah, well, I I mean, I'm never going to play football for England. It's too late for that to happen. Get that okay That for the main England team I might play for the over. Exactly or the hitch in seven five aside. But I think but the principle of it prins theull of it is there. and I do I feel like we have to remember I say in the book, you know today is the youngest you'll ever be. And I was really grateful to somebody telling me at forty five, know, that I was young enough to start a stand upp. It took a much older person saying you're forty five year're young And I really remind myself that I think, yeah, but I'm fifty seven today. and there will be a time in the not too far distant future when I look back at this and go, you were only fifty seven. You felt physically pretty much like you did when you were twenty five, still. You could have done whatever you wanted. And yeah, it's funny, isn't it? when you travel for work And I'm travelling all over at the moment on Tour and for I do corporates, a lot of corporates abroad. I'm in all these different environments. And there are a few where I think, God, I'd love to, you know, live in Inverness or Farsley or Oslo. And then a bit of me thinks, you know, you still know you still could it's like it's not too late. You could I feel I'm not too late to start again. Yeah. That's true. I mean I'm being little And it is very interesting. You've got young children I've got young children so my life Your my life's matter, you know. I'm just waiting for grandchildren and my life is very peaceful. But it is interesting looking back because now I'm sort of at the age where my grandparents would I would probably But my first memories of my grandparents would be the age I'. I had exactly that thought the other day actually. And you know, I'm thinking of my granddaread who I most resemble. And my whole memory of him is sitting in a chair. I mean, he had a bit of a job for like part of my youth like worked at a Captain Cook's house, you know, doing odd jobs and things, but basically would sit in a chair was an old man who'd sit in the chair in his cardigan at sixty. But that was what sixty year old doing. And I sort of feel like that is that when I look at my mum and my dad, And as I said, my dad'sot is very sort of active and goes out and about and does loads of things, and he's interested in things and And I think that it's good to Yeah, we've got sort choices be to be kept young. But yeah, I was remembering my grandmother who was both my grandmothers were very sort of beautiful women And I rememberered my grandmother and I was thinking, How how old would she have been when I first really remember her? And I came upon this age. I thought it would have been a bat. And I definitely remember, I mean she was very she was a very sort of modern woman And quite a powerhouse, but I definitely don't remember M she's really young. she just seemed like an old vibrant woman But maybe we should take it old vibrant people. That's what we're going for. The OVPs. On the other side, my grandma, his wife, who lived tntil she was one hundred two eighty five was I mean at nineteen ninety five she was still just kind of helping out and very active and then she saw started losing a mind a little bit. But you know, in ' eighty five, she said to me, I still feel like I'm twenty five. I can't understand. I look in the mirror and I can't understand what I'm looking at. So I think it's very possible. The actual problem is not age it's gender.. you're screwed I'm afraid, but I'm going to do just fine. I've got another I'll be reinventing many more times for the next thirty years. so stay tuned. I'm just hoping to get to sixty five. That's the best I can do U look well, there's loads of great stuff in the book and it did, you know, and it did it did u You know, all that stuff. I think it does resonate with men. I think there probably is a book written by a Maybe I'll write the male version of this. But I think I think men will get a lot out of this obviously, I think. And young people at my daughter' read it kindly when it was written and she's passed it around all her mates. because one of the things they said to me about the takeouts, they said, you know, have youve got enough to tip but maybe three takeouts per chapter and I'd been working, I write about it in the book I'd been working as a coach alongside my day job just for reasons of sanity and human connection and emotional kindness and intelligence outside of male dominated boardrooms. And so all these things that I developed over many years as a trainer and a coach, in there as well they're sort of lighthearted, but they actually work and I think if I was going to spend money on a book, I'd want thirty things that I could take with me and refer back to. And I think actually my daughter's generation. My daughter was like, Why have you never told me any of these things? I said, I've told you all of them loads of times, but you totally ignored me. I mean I think that's if there are young people, l I doubt there are But there are listen to old people. Both of them listen listen. Listen us and learn from the ter. Why did you write a book called Listen to old people that'll fly off, that'll be at all the windows I I think you have to make you. I mean, know as you do talk about this, but the mistakes you make and the bad gigs, you learn more from the bad gigs and you learn so much more from the personal mistakes you make and the terrible relationships. I think you know, there's there's a couple of terrible relationships I had with inapppriate people who go actually from that relationship, I realized I died. I mustn't go out with someone like that again. I just thought I'll be single then. You managed to think I'll find a good person and I can vouch for the fact you have because she's wonderful in your way. But yeah, I just thought I'll give up. Wow. I don't trust myself. Giving up el. I mean but being, you know, I think like being single in your later years is terrible thing and many people have that thrust upon them in any case all this thing won't be Oh you should get in a relationship because you don't want to I'm so happy. I'm such a lovely time First of all, I think people mistake them single for celibrate and they're different things. But second of all, I also think I've just got I wouldn't have been able to write that book if I'd still been sort of dating the kind of people I was dating because they were quite draining. They probably thought the same about me. But I actually really I'm really quite enjoying. I don't know if I'll always want to be living a totally sort of single life You know, I was a single mom for years and years and years and I really likek just I think if you want to be with someone when you're old choose someone when you're old and then you'll choose the right for Rather than choosing someone when you're nineteen ago, let's give it I mean, it's worked for my parents Just about they've been together since they were thirteen. Yeah. And then long was that then? Like se was it seventy seven years oldo? Well my parents are about to celebrate sixty. You've just pissed on their chips then. But You know, I think if could because you know, people break up, people die, there's no, you know, and you realize just, you know, as people get older and your parents get older and one of them is ill than one of them then you know, it's it's not not What you're imagining it to be. Well it does get alarmingly close to that even at the early the first flush of dating at my age. I always like I've always preferred older men and that becomes quite problematic is all I'm saying. I used to like a sort of ten, fifty I very much was cut from the same cloth as your lovely partner. and she's finding out But you sort of think that all seems really really sort of sexy and fun when you're thirty and they're forty five. But then as the years go by, you're like, o right,'s very bad for my wife who did not Luckily Math isn't a strong point. She didn't realize what was going happen. You should go out with someone fifteen years younger than you. It just doesn't it just never really doesnt just oddly doesn't I don't know what it is about. I was with them out for ha having a drink with a friend last week and she's only about five years younger than me and she was saying that she'd been having this fling I was feeling really sorry for her because she's just recovered from breast cancer. She had a really hard time and she'd gone to ground a bit. I hadn't heard from her for a few weeks. I was like, I've been really worried. Well it doess like the reason I haven't heard from her is because she's been immersed in this massive affair with this much younger man. And I was like, How much she go? anyyway? she said he was twenty nine. And I said, But that's the same age as my son. So I'm not judging her at all good play her what lovely they should put that on the NHS after you've got through breast cancer. You get to have an affair with it with a young person. But for me that wouldn't work because I'd be thinking, you know, my son is your age and his friends are your age and I can't associate that age group with anything other than maternal feelings. Yes. well that's fair enough. We'll see we'll find someone out there for you've only had some young misters over. Eactly crowdfunder. So look the book's fantastic Namast, Motherfuck because I ask everyone if they are reading anything we've read anything recently'd like to rec by someone else. Do you know I am. I picked it up at an airport. I was I was flying through to anyway, was an airport, I was stuck at Palmmer Airport in New York on a work trip and it was horrific and everything wasn't working. And I went into the bookshop and there were about five English books in that bookshop, and I thought I'm going have to get one of them because I'm going to be stuck here for eight hours. And it's The Women by Kristen Hannah