Future Projects and Career Reflection

Hi Rat fans. Thankks for downloading the podcast. Thanks to everyone who came to the Droit Witch and St. Alban's gigs, which were fantastic. Look the big news is coming up we're at the Edinburgh fringe doing Rhllistterur From the fifth of August to the sixteenth of August, there's two shows on the eighth and ninth. They're all at St three except for those later shows at five thirty which are at W Edinburgh, which is another stand venue. The regular shows at two o'clock. tickets are available go to richchain d. com slash rllustter p And book now, especially if you want to come on the weekends where tickets are selling fast I am going to start booking guests this week and you'll be able to see The confirmed guests on that website as well. So book ahead It's lots of fun. We had loads of fun last year we should be creating Enough podcasts to see us through to the end of the year. After that, what's gonna to happen Sure, my find friends sure Anyway, sit back, relax, Enjoy another episode Of whatever Flickking podcast you're listening to. Hello, welcome to another studio based forllisa Pearl. my guest this week robably best known for being the blue wiggle on Orange is the New Brown. rememember that? Yeah. You look like you don't remember I interestntingly, I saw a bit of that recently and I was like I don't remember that I don't know what was going on in my life, but yes, I have recently been reminded I was the bllue wiggle and orange is the new brown. I'm kind of slightly upseted. There's a lot of colors in that sentence. Yeah confusing Im kind of obsessed with I used to be obsessed with the wiggles And they've got to the point where one of the main wiggle guys' been doing it all the whole time like was was tweeting me because I was tweeting about the wheels so ye But it's been a while since I've watched they're nice guys. They're nice guys. they're a big Australian institution if you're not aware of Yeah they're very very good. and I like the Yellow Wiggle who was a girl. Yeah, she's gorgeous.. And she left too and now does her own Emma Ema, Emma. Yeah Orange New Brown was a sketch show by my friend Nazim Hussein, who's hilarious And gorgeous, gorgeous guy and just like He had a geo called Far of Brown planlanet. and that that he just gone off on his own system It's just ridiculous. Properly ridiculous. Good. I only did it because I like the blue wiggle. So look, I'm going to talk to you about some of the things you've been up to, what I'm excited about what you're going to be up to. There's as we recorded this, the breaking news was just coming through. I don't know if this is true, which I presume it is true is that you're doing A version of chitty, chitty bang bang is your next project? Is that? Well true So are weed do there is a film a remake of the film. Okay and there is of and there's a script writer attached and a director attached and there's talk that it will involve new songs. Okay I mean that's very very arrogant move from you Tim mentioned. I think you can Well, as I say, I'm not attacked I'm literally not attached. All right. So that was a sort of leak Okay. And and it's totally fine that at laked, but it's actually I'm not attached. So I guess I I hope to be and mayaybe but's yeah it shouldn't have. should' have leaked in it slightly. this way This this won't go out. No, it's totally fine because by the time it comes up. I've got a rhyme for you Shitty shitty gangbang. Really good. Someone finally thought of that If you can get that in,'ll give I'll give you fifty pounds if you get that fifty pounds That's s anythinging. There's so many. It' is it a Rll Dahl story originally or did he write this Ian Fleming story story.es. Ian Fleming. Then he Rlled Darl wrote the screenplay. Roll Dahl. Is that right? O came in on the screenplay Becauseuse Ian Fleming obviously wrote the Bond book Yes and then famously U his kids it's probably apocryphal, but the story is one of his kids said, Dad, you like you care about James Bond more than you care about us. So he sat down and just wrote A sort of weird kid story for his kids That's the You know, there's always those stories. There is. And like I think Dahl apparently wrote BFG for Sopie, his granddaughter and all that U And I don't know if that's true either but Then the film script, I think they pulled Darlin and he invented all the Darlin, you know, the child catcher and all the dark stuff Um It is the Most insane movie if you watch it again. it is wonderful in its own Right. Yes. It's the sort of property that's so embedded in culture that Y You could manifest it in a different way. know. I think you could I actually withithout ruining the old one because the old one will just be the old one. It's like Matilda the musical movie. Yes, you know, so of course people are going to go, Why do you have to remake stuff? The Matilda movie is brilliant you're like, well, firstly The Matilda movie has nothing to do with the musical. We built it on the book and it's English and You know, it's it's been in the world for fifteen years. This is a film of the extant and very acclaimed musical. This is not a remake, but people do have that agitation. but at The American Danny DeVito movie and Matilda, the musical both sit there and you can watch them both. They're completely different experiences. But every now and then we retell sort of seminal texts. There's got plenty of versions of Hamlet and the Odyssey in. Yeah That's true. You are right about that secondcond W. I think it's time for another. The Ch Bangbang is so old I mean, I know Dick Van Dyke has been alive at the time of recording, but It's You know, he's like it's incred he's like young in that's like we must be like thirty five or something And it's iconic and it was built in a different time too. So The question, I mean, this is just an interestnting conversations to mayain and probably not to your listener, but the question when you look at a text and go do you want to haveave another go at this is if you lay out all the pieces of a story on the floor Can you imagine building a new magic car where the magic car is a metaphor for a new story? Peace is amazing Like Groundhog Day the Musical is built at the pieces the screenplay for Ground Hog Day The movie you know, generated guess And I think And many, many people I saw Ground Hooked at the musical who loved the movie loved the musical and they don't compete becausecause the pieces are so Profound and funny and strong that they bear further interpretation. and, you know, but U And Chitty was made in a time when there would only be one big studio family film a year And I kind of They had a very different attitude to story. They' like, We'll a magic car and a child catcher and well they'll be a The first half will be here, the second will be a story that the dad tells and it's like They they they just they were spectacleses and they were born of different traditions like Vaudeville and storytelling, and you'd cast someone like Dick Van Dyke and go, well, what are you good at? Well, you're good at this clowning stuff, so we'll do that. Whereas if you took those the movie apart and looked at the pieces, you have a magic car and a dad who's lost his wife and kids and was a spy and this an inventor in the in the war and Now doesn't know what his purpose is and kids who have lost their mother. and truly scrumptious is daughter of chocolate factory owner who doesn't feels like she was neglected by her father and you go, right If you put that through the filter of how we tell stories today which is less kind of, which is more about narrative stone, like would that be worth doing? And what would that look like? And as I say, I'm not attached yet, but as youre can tell I've looked at the parts and I'm It's interesting. Yeah yeah. I've come a long way aroundound to thinking, o There's stuff there. And then the other question is Why whyy make it now If the answer is because it's IP, we can exploit it then. But if it's like there's something in the story that says something about twenty twenty six That is like worth saying Okay I mean, it's like the Paddington movies, isn't it? whichich were absolutely fantastic. Yeah, beautiful. And they did say stuff Obviously they leent really hard on the lesson of immigration and difference and it's really important. Yeah ye. Well I'm excited about it now. I was going to be rude, I'm going to be nice now I don't think I don't think I know nothing about it. So talking of Matilda, I think I did email you to tell you this, but it's happened since the last time I saw you. We'd seen it we saw a very early preview me and my wife and then we took Phoebe to see it And then we took Phoebe and Ernie to see it And Ernie is autistic and has ADHD and doesn't really settle very well, but he got all the way through the first half And then the second when he lost his one. he wasred when they're singing when I when I grow up Um, the k they the kids will sing it. when I grow up and they're imagining what they'll do theyre grow up it's a beautiful song. It's of my favorite v ss. Then the teach them is honey thingsings when I grow up. and he had already grown up today had already grown up and everyone and everyone laughed laughed. And then he went really cheers. And it was one of the It was. It was just so beautiful. And then he got to a board and that we le nooy was sat in cafe ira with him I onm quite anise. And it's hard once a kids said something in a crowded room Reized that everyone laughed and then they're like their brains like, oh, okay what is this? They either are humiliated or they like there might be another opportunity to get definite attention.inite suddenly there' a little a little spectrumy celebrity in a room of crd crowded room and thats that's hard. But it was lovely It was you know, I was annoyed that I missed most of the second half But it was, you know it's it's lovely to have that. mean it's such a it's such a beautiful musical. You must be, I mean You must be so proud of it but isn'tn isn't it amazing? It' is ye. It's going to go on forever Yeah, I wasn't sure, but I think it looks like a same theatre world just keep going. Yeah. It's been fifteen years at the Cambridge And next year actually we're going to for the first time in fifteen years partart from COVID. Um Let theater go dark for a couple of weeks and we're actually going to put in some new kit wr new sound and likes and just becauses the PA's been hanging there for fifteen years it's well maintained That's really exciting. We're kind of doubling down and the tour at the moment which I think is in Bristol might be in Dublin this weeake I saw it in South Abdon a couple of weeks ago and it's Banging. great. you know, you sometimes think, well, the twoour It doesn't have the lifts and the hydraulics and the, you know It is really good on tour. I was really excited to see how It is commensurate with with the with the West End showh, which is great because it's These days I mean who the can afford Who can afford to come to London with their family, accommodate them and go to a musical? Yes it So the tour is very important to us on a sort of's great phhilosophical. I mean again, when it's a big show that I saw I saw was it inside number nine, which is again, a very technical show way more involved than it needed to be and way better than it needed to be, but it was fantastic. But they had this very intricate set and videos and all that sort stuff and I saw it in Stoke because I was up there doing a TV job so we went to see it in the evening. I've been in it so I hadn't seen the first half and just so amazing to see like a proper show put on like you know, all around the country to do it properly is great. Yeah ye. Yeah, reallyally good. It's really worth it Have you got to the point where any of the Matilda's children have played Matilda?'s got that's got to come up Yeah Well I think that would be that would be early if that was onene of the Matildas had had a nine year old had a nine year old, they would have Yeah, it's too early. so it's too early. not physically I mean But I did see one of our original Matildas who I adore at Groucho the other night. she's just like a fully grown human person. Of course. Well, except that she's tiny Absolutely tiny because our matildas tend to be tiny. Right because they you want you want them to look sort of seven or eight Yeah B old enough to play the role So they often come from small families and they grow up be like, you're growownish, you know They like well, they're the size of their mom, you know,. So Adrian a just absolute ball of joy. Amazing. sos twenty six of them oice him It's amazing and the film is so incredible and there's that that the end scene of the film with where they rebel and the kids are there's incredible resulting children number. Yeah. so that went sort of viral on TikTok. Yeah TikTok But Een Ellen Kanes Cri and this amazing tracking shot ye And a banging arrangement. you know, Chris Nightingale went back in orchestrated it in the way that, you know, when a musical, you've got eleven musicians and we're purist so there's no there's very little track or anything, you know, musicals often have a lot of pre recorded stuff. M childildis Pre prettyretty amazingly real Um, But yeah, Chris, they're like, well, you're going to be recording the soundtrack to this film at I don't think it was Appy Road, but maybe air studios and you can have a fifty pce orchestra and he's like, come on this sounds amazing And then the movie also had a new song, which I really the you were still holding my hand at the end of the movie. Yes, which I wrote for the film and I really like it. I mean, I don't think we're going to put it in the stage show because they are distinct things, but I love I really like that moment Well it's not it's so good to I mean, how much were you involved in the film? you just was COVID, I couldn't come across Right. I mean, I was got I found them the other day. this video is I did a video of every song, right? Well, a good chunk of every song and sent them to Matthew and Chris to go. I just did an experiment about how much we could speed up each song because in a theater You know, if you're going, We are revolting children living in revolting times, we sing because then you go to never again, will you get the best of me? Never again, will you take away my freedom and we won't forget the day we fought or whatever that lyric is. We can SPL how we like if of' a wrong wrong is right. There's a tempo which on stage Dancing kids, out of breath, microphone in the hair, competing with eleven musicians and Ernie yelling and crinkling his crackers There's a Temper which we need it to be so that everyone hears every word. Now kids in the dance in the movie at is mouthing because it's all pre recorded And the mix is perfect and it's all the then you can go You can SPL how we like if nough of us are wrong wrong is right and and o RT what? And you can so I just did all these videos because you want it to be a bit more. footed and stuff And yeah, anyway, so I did that sort of shit. Tempo experimentation and And disciplined, disciplined for children who aren't listening foragots who areering and w'reering in history that thing. like again on stage, there's a tempo because a guy has to breathe he doesn't have to breathe in this TDJ. cut the cut it out. Okay justust do the second line now That's interesting. I would never have thought of that but that's amazing. Is it interesting? Yeah, I' itin. I lot have noticice. it's interesting to me. I think it as well. I love o you don't usually I don't usually get to talk to people who've put together these kind of things. And it's I mean it's such a, I mean there's things where there's comedy and stuff I can watch and go, I know how this was done and I could have a crack at doing this. Yeah. Yeah. I obviously do not know how you do Yeah. you do the same magic tricks if you're not but obviously. There's nothing special. about any art form, it except that in the case of a musical A lot of people have had to started their journeys a long time ago to be at a point where the lightning in a bottle that happened with Matilda can happen because you have to take the history of Chris Nightingale all the way back to school and studying organ at you know, wherever he went to college and and you have to take Rob Howells. journey all the way back to his first sketches, you know, the designer and everyone has just We're all just plumbers, but we are plumbers who have obsessed over a discrete element of the craft for a long time, you know. And so when you put it all together and everyone's communicating and Coaborating and love each other and care And there's no producer telling them, Oh, well the last thing I saw had this so you better put that in none of that bullshit. then If you're lucky like I was so incredibly lucky, then the thing seems a little bit indistinguishable from a magic trick. Yes, I think it his trick. But you know you can tell that that level's gone into it and it is yeah, you know, and it's proper When you go to see a stand up comedian in a theatre for fifty quQid, you think this isn't really this isn't I don't know' spending this much money on it, but at least when you go to see something like you go, o, I can seeether money's 's been spent some of it's going into Tim Minch' pock. That's fine. We tell you how much it is. and it's been very good to me over the years But per ticket to listen to my songs all night, I think you're paying me something something like that Soide diary too much. I'm going to double it Yeah let. But but it costs so so I think I mean, this isn' Matilda I won't do the numbers because it's crass and no one's business. but If Matilda does not basically Pret damn fool Yeah. eightight times a week in a thirteen hundred seat theater can't wash its own face. No. And a lot of the year It is Right. And then you have somewhere and you kind of callw your way back up to you know. So I mean, people do very well out of long running musicals because of the sheer volume. Yeah,, it is a real problem how expensive tickets are But it's not because someone's gouging no a bunch. It is because the expenses of you can you can you can you can see that. I mean it's over five hundred quid to stay in a four star hotel in London for a night. Yeah I mean, I don't know what the economic mechanism by which that has a become possible and that generates enough humans that can pay that for a bed for a night It's fucking boming. Anyway, sorry, this is super boring. I just like How does this economy work? It's so weird. But otherwise is an economics podcast. It economy you know. I I'm very interested in how much money you're making and even fifteen per tickets, good enough for me. I'd take that. I'll take five pier tickets. I don't know if it is that. S someone's gonna to do the math. It's five hundred passenger tickets U but Yes, look, you've been doing a lot I've been enjoying what you've done quite a few sort of albums of semis serious and funny mixture of funny tours and some some of the songs of funny. I mean, you did a tour called An Unfunny evening with Tim Minchin in his piano, which you know I think was very honest of you fun. Yeah, Well I was trying to just do an unfunny show. but of course I just don't know how to be on stage without going for laughs just gives me license to to say I'm not playing prejudice, you know Yeah. And I think that loses me a percentage of my audience, but it gains me audience depth. L my people who come to my concerts every tour diet. firstirstly The concerts are good because I'm I've been doing it for a long time that they've different from most s things because I might play serious songs, but half of it is chat and the chat might not be like aiming to be stand up, but it just falls towards comedy because that's what find ourselves to do. But I have worked, as you know, And we only check in, know every six or eight years. but what I wanted to do was extract myself from comedy Not because I don't think notot because I want to be taken super seriously or because on stage I I want to, you know I'll always be clowny and I'll always tend towards the sort of lyrics that have a little twist and turns But I just wanted to be able to put out a part together my twenty twenty album withithout everyonem going h, so I've worked really slowly to just widen The sort of genre of what people expect from me. and it's had to be conscious and slow. Yes actually think I've done it And it's actually very fucking hard to do You know, it would be hard for Bill Bailey Y to put out a part together or to U do upright Yes Oh, actually no, because I think Bill could absolutely do a serious acting role. I'm sure he has. Yeah. ye, well I mean can't think Hot Fuzz he was funny, but I feel he's done some dickens and stuff maybe Yeah. sure sure. But And In Australia, it's probably easier because I don't know. Anyway, it's taken a bit And I don't mind if people go, he used to be funny. That's fine. And I don't mind if I was at arenas in twenty twelve and now Hammersmith Apollo Like, you know, I' fine. but I mean the The last album, which' called Time Machine, did go back and it has rock and roll eard and stuff, but it's still mostly It's not comedy songs. It's just the quirkier of my songs have being allowed in Yes. the kind of stuff that quirky pop like Ben Folds dabbles in and you know, the Kinks used to do a lot of you Um And my last tour was, of course, I just opened it all up again because it was a twenty year anniversary tour. So I just I called it Songs The World Will Never Hear which is a quote from Rock and Ron Eerd celebrating twenty years of hardcore fucking rock and roll hererding. And I played revolting Children from Matilda. I played a ballad no one I'd ever heard before. I played Dark S side and I played Cvas bags and got the fan out again and like I just got to do whatever I fuckking. And then I got to do littleittle bits of silly talk, but also like do whole bits of me just doing what I'm doing now, which is over talking on, you know, esoteric. But I love I think, you know, I was listening to some of the some of the albums the I would leave this that lovely song. The not perfect song I was listened to which did pretty well that That's from right the way back. is that an old one? It's two thousand five. Oh was it? was a show. That was the encore of Darkide. I was it I didn't. So that's the other thing is I'm like pointing out I've always I've always said laugher is not the only currency. And when you're a comedian You have to can remind yourself for that because you just get addicted collaps and I've always there was As long as people come to me expecting Jimmy Carr. oo As long as they're not disappointed because I don't think they're getting what they paid for I don't think they walk out any less Are you not entertained? In fact, I think for me It's much more It's an art form I'm much more interested in where you're laughing a lot, thinking a lot than there's whole moments where you're mayaybe be held in a place that's a bit uncomfortable intellectually or maybe you're just silent. I mean, in my concerts Hammersmith or whatever, big rooms do run a rooms really quiet. Yes And that is its own currency, that sort of Just be here with me. No phones, no one, just like held in that moment, you know? No, I do. That's my favorite thing in the show as well, not on the same scale, but if you can get the audience absolutely quiet it' And then turn the comments yeah and then didid you see Ohh Mary? You probably haven't seen it yet No I don't we like musicals apart, It's not a musical. Oary is like a it's just this thing out of America Catherine Tit's in it now and she's a genius. And But it's proper broad. Yes, slapstick And there's just this one moment in it and I won't ruin it. but where the writer has just gone, Oh, I'm doing this now. and it just you suddenly find yourself in it Yeah having not The gear change, you can't hear the gear grind. It's just she's being an absolute fucking idiot And then slowly she's just ing on something suddenly you' like Oh, we're still in this moment. Yeah. There's not going to be a break here This is not going to be undercut And that takes a while and then there's no gear grind on the way back out either. suuddenly you're just back in Absolute buffoonery. It's having spent this time. I love it Pip. beautiful language and it's once in a show. and it's Unbelievably audacious Yeah and sort of like A producer might, Wh whyy did do that? It's like because fucking wantitor because the audience will come If it's good, they will come Well the Hams in Operation Minince meeet, which is a lovely moment where where you forget where you forget that it's a guy pretending to be a middle aged woman. Why are we meet in a war something? Yeah, yeah it's beautiful. And you completely forget and it should be comical. The other thing I saw that you might have seen this is quite an old clip, but there's three little Asian kids doing beGes. Oh wow. Have you seen it? And it's like some stars in their eyes program feel sort of novel and like they come out and they look hilarious. they come out, they look like little tiny versions Sany. They've just Be. one's got a beard, one's got the bald c. Wow. So the panel are lar you know, because it's lar It's like bees And and you're thinking, oh, don't laugh because they' think you're laughing at. you know, I know why you're laughing because it is hilarious Yeah, but don't laugh because it might, you know, don't keep laughing. They start singing this one of the BeG' s some of the home of them G good good good b somethingute funny. it's a nice song but then They're just so good. You know, the beeGs are so ridiculous as well. That's why I think the beGes have no sense of humor about themselves. Yeah. because it it's just saying some beach boyys just' be.'s it's one st It's one step away from the beGs themselves are one step away from you laughing Yeah Yeah. And it's and these kids, it's the same thing they're going, they're doing the little vibrato And then one of the kids just takeake the Robin Gib, morrowing Gib just takes this solo and it's the most beautiful thing and you absolutely forget 've got it I'll send you link I' put link in the bl. It actually and I found it like veryery moving But also I just loved it because it was right on that edge of this is This is comedy that could be punctured. you could destroy theseese kids could actually there's a danger that these kids could get their confidence destroyed And they don't deserve to. And then they just do it completely. And it does, it's transcendental. I'll send it to you. You'll enjoy it. And as a viewer, I love I love a show. I love art that demands of me attention and commitment And and it's something I Consciously because I see a lot of theaterre and stuff, especially but I'm much more interested in Striight theatre and musical theatre just And it's more for me And I kind of yearsars ago under sort of went You have to sit down uncyynically and idedeally with as little information as you can about what you're about to say. Yeah. And I sort of found myself doing this thing whereere I'd do that when I sat down just for a bit to sort of almost to tell myself, you know I just sort of like instead of that or whatever, like it's stupid, but Um because Not all theatre' good by a long shot and sometimes that it's fraudulent how they're trying to manipulate and you go, fuck off like. I don't believe you, whatever. but If you really leave yourself open to what an artist is trying to do, it's amazing how far you can be taken in opposite direction. Yeah. You' go with generosity and you'll get a hell of a lot out of it. Yeah goingo to theatre, spending eighty quid and being cynical, it's just like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah kind of spend it on Guinness. And it's like It's all the work that's gone into And whatever people are doing all the work that's gone into it is just astonishing And everyone's really, I think these you know, occasion, you get something the cynical money making get a better. It's even then everyone the people in there trying really hard their best to make it good. And I have to switch off m brain, especially when it comes to lyrics, I'm like Yes, have to switch off the wouldould I have written that lyric This is like, Oh fuck off mate. It's not about you Let's stop it You're good, though, you are good. I'll give you that you're good at writing lyrics. I'll give you that. That's all I's what you're into. It does. Some people don't like half rymes. totually half rymes. I like half ryme. Right. I am going to ask you an emergency question U I mean, this is too much philosophy but I'm gonna do it. When a really bad person dies, it said there's a special place in hell for them But what do you think that means? an especially nasty place or an especially cushy place, as surely the devil would want to reward them for their bad behavior It's really good special place and hell for people like you. Oh. Oh, lovely. D I get the dead the de the devil I mean, it's confusing because he's willingly in charge of God's penal system. Yeah. But he want assumes that means you know how hell sucks? Yours is like especially suckking. I don't think it would. I think you know, the worst person you could think of, I'm not gonna to say who they are, but there's you know a couple of people who've died this year Stupid he were to die, which he probably won't ever do. You know, the devil would welcome and say well done for the for the awwful cr spread Yeah throughout the world. Yeah, look I mean, there's a few holes Yeah Hell and the devil and his function. or her function. So it's like we've been politically corrupted totally. Or their. Yeah their function, deevil might been a long time. could have changed That would be annoying for the kind of who would go to hell if it turns out that the devil's quite woke you're going to hell That might be some people's hell. might be my hell actually. The We woke equals a negative thing, not a positive thing. yeah, I don't know I think I think I picture it as spectacularly I wonder about poor old Judas because I mean, I think one of the things For those who don't know, I'mbsessed by Jesus Christ Sstar. For wnder what Tim Rice was ' studying at the age of twenty three or whatever the fucking unbelievable that they wrote that He basically, I think there was a philosopher and I'll forget his name That tomb had read, that basically made the point that we say, Jesus gave his life. for our sins. He's suffered on the cross for sixteenine hours or whatever. and got Baaton and a spear in his side so that we could whatever however that logic works. Yeah. So we don't have to suffer 'sescapecut. Yeah, he bled for us. Yeah comes from taken, you know We have to kill a goat to make God happy, we' going to kill and it kind of got take any distorted, but The idea was that Jesus suffered and we should be grateful for him. But Jesus suffered for sixteen hours and then ever since then has just been like having the best life ever. At God's right hand side, like whatever that is, but it's got to be awesome, right? By any reading heaven is awesome Judas did exactly what the whole thing was preordinain. and it was God's plan. Yeah Judas told was made by God to give up his best friend then hanged himself which would have been was under such emotional distress that he took his own life and has since spent whatever that timeline is two thousand So far twenty six years or about two thousand years. Yeah in hell I should praise him every day. He suffered for this Crazy plan that God had. And so I hope Judas has a special place in Hell. I hope it's like jacuzzi and lovely ladies if he's into ladies. I think he was probably into guys Well probably not. for the Tim Rice reading or from the historical reading. Well, I don't think the historicalular I mean, for the Roman for the Saulian reinterpretation of the story, which is subsequently reinterpreted by the Romans, which was subsequently reinterpreted I reckon why not they I mean there weren't any girls in in the club. They could well have I think Judas and Jesus really loved each other. There's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't have been others. that's controversial, but I'll take it. I don't think What's What I think' iss amazing about Jesus is He's there to see all the miracles and and Thomas as well, he sees all the stuff that goes down. He's there, sees Jesus walking on water, all this stuff. He knows that you and I don't know whether Jesus is the Son of God or not. You've come up with your ideas But you don't know. Well he knows that Jesus is the Son of God and yet he still betrays him. Thomas knows that Jesus has brought back people back to life him ye Yeah, I don't think he did. they come on. Yeah. The miracle many, many, many years later. But Judas, if Judas existed to the extent that he did with this guy You know, now what is we would have been called Joshua Ben Joseph or Joshua son of Joseph. you know, there's absolutely no doubt that they were They were Jews Yeah whose land was being taken by the Romans and they were trying to reassert their right as they had done every few hundred years, try and get their temple back, try and get Jerusalem back off the Romans. They were a rebel gang of Jesus was a quite a hardcore Jewish preacher. It's like, we Jews have to get better at, you know, back to old school Judaism. And u And there was no fuck of miracles. And he was only around for a few years. He only had a few followers. and like all great preachers, he went to the the uneducated classes because the educated are not interested in someone saying I'm the son of God, but the fishermen might be u got a few fishermen Rs up Romans went that killed him. Yeah. And that was that a minor profet in a minor time doing what Jewish people have done many years And u Then yeah, story took off. It took off the. Stories takek off. Goodly you had a good prayer Now Father, you are in heaven? God knows what that was. Wonder what that was? Wonder what it said He had a good one. He came up with that. People are still doing people are still going to be seeing you invoting children in two thousand years time now No they're not to the extent maybe when I grow up to the extent that I why in the sun they were to the extent that Jesus was an actual person If he said anything like some of the things he said it was pretty great I concur I did the whole show about it. hot it probably h Probably hot. Charismatic laders is are usually hot. Yeahah I Richard Harry Ch charismatic. Very, very charismatic. I reckon I reckon he's God's son. If like Zeus, I'm going to do a religious one. If like Zeus, you could turn into any animal to seduce and make love to someone you fancied with their consent What animal would because Zeus didn't bother about that, I'm going to make you bother about consent. Okay. What animal would you choose to be to make love to someone Hold on, I get to be an animal. make love to a human. Yeah, you're gonna make love to a human, but you're going to be animal. your Zus you can turn because do I have to choose a human and then an animal? because maybe Is your implication that depending on the human I might be a different animal? No, I'm saying if you were going to seduce somebody as an animal, like he was a swan and went for it as a swan. Which animal would youoose? Who did he sh as a one? I don't know someone, Aphrodite or someone. Wow What if I was going to introduce someone as an animal God, this is hard. Yeah, I'm an aigar. I' never said it would be easy As sex. I you shouldn't ask sex. You want to be a donkey is what you say? Yeah. Okay. That's good That wouldd be nice I think don't cue him my goodsky I think u'm I think you'd have to meet a special lady. Yeah They'd have to be a special lady. There's Donkey from I would Shrek the ladies. Yeah what animal she want to me about Donkey Shrek, He's funny as well. He's very funny and the implication is he's virile. When he has sex with a dragon a lot of dragons So he's already not worried about interspatial barriers. No So he's the perfect person to choose mightoo a shret. Maybe and lions lions are quite sex. I mean, you are like you. You a nine.readyine 's nice. right. I'll do one more emergency question and I'm going to ask you more about your glittering career. I've lost the gift of being funny on podcasts. I don't think so I think it's good. I likeut out them I. I like the fact that both of those have led to more philosophy. That There's no way out of it. What is the worst thing that's ever happened to involving cake? It's a hard question, I think that if nothing' actually involving the cake. Well, Um, quite fruit and no po intended as. Cake's been good. This has been a good question. a lot of interesting stories have come up as a result. I can't think of cake. I mean, obviously cake in my life. Being someone is not a cake man. Yeah. What do you substitute for cake Oh like a lemon tart or apple and rhubb crumble or cremulee or anything, but cake that counts as cake cake The cake in my life is the Bruce Cake and Matilda. Okay, of course. So I have a big cake in my life and it's every every, you know, many times a day around the world a cake is a big part of my life. Wow, yeah, that is yeah, in my real life I can't think of a single cake I't think of much Except like getting a lovely pie of chocolate going? Isn't weird that I don't really like this. I don't I love sweet things and cake is not and especially chocolate I of love chocolate And a chocolate cake really just doesn't do that for me. It doesn't help. So the idea of eating like a big chocolate cake like if I was forced to do that by have heaps of cream on it Yeah to make it go away Tim Tam, G me Tim Tam. Tim Tam. penwood. can't get there, Well, I suppose we can get them over. but I won't I won't have it in the house.'ve given I've given it. I want to know the cake based stories.ag a cake out of the bin. I mean, it's just when you ask someone something they've never been asked before, it either goes terribly wrong and they've got it O my memoryies Well, but I ha' got one for this. U usually I've got one because I think that's where they question comes from. but like so, I can't remember what the other ones were, but Steve might just have found a cake in a bit And they did And they too get a bin cake. It was I think it was fine, but it was in a bin. So it's sort of surprising that you know, something like that. Yeah, that sounds like a good thing that happened. Yeah, well you know, she probably got free cake. Dease doesn't it matter where it is, It's fant. Anyway, look, I'll go back to talking about you. If you like, Thats all me, my favourite subject. I quite like talking about you talkal about me. I'm very interesting. You talkal about me if you like. You've met a lot of people, done a lot of work've done a lot of shows, done a lot of shows, done a lot. Who do you like? And all the people have met on me. I mean, I'm your original investor. You're the first and I probably need to do your last by the way. Yeah, OkayK, we'll do that. You might have come. Yeah We'll do that from Australia. We in the environment. First class. Yeah, that's right. Yes, please. These days it's like so expensiveust avoid Dubai Michael Palin was just like awesome for me. Yeah. but I'm like huge. I mean, Rick Mail and Michael Palin, I think' like the two people icons. Yeah that you got just. And I didn't get I didn't do Rick Maail. So Rick Mail died before I got But also Greg had worked with him and I said, what do you think about Rick doing? And you know, he'd had that accident and he said I't think I don't think it would work. So Id never asked him, but I think I would have I think with Rick I would have actually been too Weve Michael Painland was just nearly crying at the start. so excited. so sorry I'm not doing that with you It's an insult to you that I'm not so emotional But I I thought I would cry. I thought when I was thinking about the interview, I thought I'm gonna cry talking to you. What Eric I haven'tven't I've tried get Eric on. I' Eric. I haven't met Eric. Iven' I've met I've met Terry a couple times. Terry Jones, haven't met Tery Gilliam, haven't Johnle, I'm not sure I would talk to John Clease, but I'm not sure I want to talk to John Clease. But Palin came across was just what exactly what you'd want to be and what I think if you're talking about your life advice and your book, He was just so happy to talk about all the stuff he must have talked about a thousand times to fans. Yeah. and jooyed, you know, like we backstage he improvised a sketch about King Herod. I asked him a question about King Herod, and he improvised a sketch about King Herod And but you know, he was just he was doing the bits from then, you know, first cross first cross down on the left, he was doing bits. Yeah. And just I think that is so Beguiling and also present Yeah. You know, but like because some people go, Oh well now I'm not gonna do my sine in the just asked John to do Yeah, you know, we'd do a funny walk we it Yeah. And so like it wasn't even n you know, because I would never ask anyone to do the sketches, but he was just so he so loved what he'd done and also And I think that's it, you know, you' got to, you've got to sayay lookook, this is an amazing thing. I've done an amazing thing. People still love it and love That's an amazing. This different personalities and it's not their fault, but opponents obviously aware and happy with the idea that when he does something like that He has an opportunity to give other people something they want, as opposed to get something he wants. Yeah and There are other people for whom the voice going, well, I don't want to do that. Why should I do that? is just louder than, o, I have an opportunity to give. And I think about that lot in terms of life decisions, like especially career and And what projects to do is to try and Always let the filter of what will this contribute? Be or the lens, be be a focus rather than what will I get out of it Again, easy for me to say because I'm You know financially safe and stuff, but that It's a really good thing to check in on when you're trying to make a decision or even just how am I going to be at this party is to check in on like, well what can I contribute as opposed to what can I get? And that sounds so Holy than now, but I think some people just defensive voice is just loudnd them and it's something that happened Some accumulation of experiences, actually probably something to happen between the edges of two and six. and they just are paranoid that they're being exploited or that someone's going to get, you know, and there are some people who just naturally given to go, o, will that be I can I can make laugh for it. Yeah, I can give you something you need, you know, Yeah. I mean, it's you want to be that you want to be gracious and like, you know, and I think a lot of sometimes it's, I mean a lot, you know, I think especially I worry about us getting older that, you know, a lot of people go up, get older and turn like bitter and weird and and and change their views on stuff. But so with, you know, with Cleese you would think Hey man, you've written the best sitcom ever. you've been in these amazing films You can just relax you don't have to go on about, you know I wouldn't be allowed on TV anymore. It doesn't matter. you're in your eighties. to still be you know, to have had all of that and still be then annoyed I think I'm going to do that tryrying to do that math. and this is part of my deterministic. worldview. like I don't think it's anyone's fault that they are the way they are all the way from the best person in the world to the most horrendous they are what they are. and if you had all the things they had, you'd be them. you know, Yeah. You wouldn't make it There is no you that would make a different decision if you had all the inputs of that murderer You'd just be that murderer. a person is an output and And so The way you are just analyzing what placeace has is just fundamentally being nowhere near thing And I don't mean that as a criticism because we all do it We're like, well, why wouldn' It's almost definitely just searing anxiety. Yes, o It's always definitely that they are living in a state of mental health difficulty of anxiety or something like that Pail' not Yeah It you know, like imagine me at a party with lots of people who want to meet me and Daniel Kitsson at a party who with everyone who wants to meet him It's not that I'm a nice guy and that Daniel's not. It's that I am unusually wired plenty of capacity to give everyone all the attention they want and happily and he is not And it's nothing it's not an ethical choice. It's just No you are. So Palin's lucky Okay, I'll take it and I'll agree with it. I think I madej to my friend, John He does his best. But I you know, I love them because they, you know, I love all those guys. and whatever happens because of That was my, you know, that was my education. those I' from the records So and Palin's the one that appe and Jhn C was when I was young was the one that I loveved, of course. Yeah. When as I got old Palin was the one I went, No, this guy can do everything. Yeah. and he is amazing. Yeah. And John Clees is But John Clees is still amazing. No I'm doing this Rickmail festival in a couple of weeks. and But you know, I kind of I kind of turned against Rick Mail after the young evenven after the young ones, it was like, oh, this isn't the young ones. like thir twelve episodes for the young ones, evenven when he did Pily Rich and Caplapan, I didn't watch Bottom I hated the new statesmen. I, you know, I was sort of that sniffy g. I'd like it now but I'm not sure. I think I was a sniffy comedy fan thinking wisy Why is he doing you look back in hindsight and understand what it is to have a career and it's so ridiculous. course people are like, Wh are you doing that? And I'm like Oh because I'm on a journey bro. likeike I'm I'm just trying to live a really like like it's not it's not a personal insult that I don't want Like, ye it's really weird. But it was ownership. It was yeah, it was my and you see it with with any comedian and you know, I've had it and some people go, o you never was as good as you were Mister F. Yeah you go Yeah I am. but alsostand we taled about. Like I didn't set out to not be as good for you I didn't think Oh, you know, Steve from Berick on Tweed needs me to do this so fuck him. I'm going to do something else. It's like Sorry, Steve. But anyway, you know, I ended up writing an episode of Man downown and I wrote a great big bit for Rick Mail about him talking about having carried Greg Davis in his bollocks and how difficult it was because And I was really pleased with it. and I thought I can't wait to and then Rick Mel died before they could film that series. So as well as being backent. I've got the news on the toilet that he died, which seems appropriate. And then you thinking, oh, I came so close to just writing something for Rick Mail. And then you' across with Rick. I was very angry with it going for a jog and dying. The other conversation around here iss just too much of a rubber hole is of course now we live in a world We are variously very close to where There's this idea of neurod divergence, right? Y percentage of our heroes were what we would now designate neurotypical in the comedy field like There would be a lot of diagnoses. And there is no doubt there's something to be said about this diagnostic explosion. and I am absolutely sure what we are now designating autism spectrum notot only would it not have been under the umbrella twenty years ago, but it may not be again in fifteen years. Yeah. Not because we will go, o Turns out We shouldn't have we'll just have different more discrete categories and'll it'll keep developing and we'll go back to like, well, there is a distinction between there's such a meaningful distinction between someone that is ASD in the way that used to be called aspergous and someone who's non verbal and self harming or whatever, that it's helpful to use different terms all that The point of this diagnostic explosion is that we notice that people have different struggles And we do something to make sure that those struggles don't damage their development, right? So when you notice your has these attributes, you get someone to say, well that's that. and the thing to do is you could there's this and this, you mustn't push them through transitions and you know, blah. and then you help them grow up to be much more integrated adults where they're not beating themselves up for the things they can't do, and they're like, that's just my autism, whatever the generation that we're talking about had none of that. So there's all this arguably damage from unrecognized neurotypes And you just'll never one shouldn't go back and retrofit diagnoses. But that is a big hidden story in the arts. There is a lot of people with a lot of pain that these days might not be as acute Arguably their creativity would have been less obtuse and all that hess. Yeah, Well, it's interesting. I'm reading a book about that fromitten by a couple of comics and you do realize it just because the minute you're looking at the world from that perspective, you're already stepping you're doing what a comedian has to do, which is why so many comedians do it, which is stepping outside and looking at the world and going, why the hell do people? Why do people pull that face when they? How many comedians were just trying to figure out how humans work Exactly. So like you know it's absolutely You know, I haven't had any tests and I don't think I've got anything like that. Although I do have afantasia, which I can't do I can't make mental images I wonder if I wonder if the fact that I I sort of I sort of kind of the behind my ld vision It's quite complicated, but I can't basically I can sort of if I think of my my wife's face, I've got an idea, but I don't never see a picture I can Yeah she's very pretty. But I wonder if like having been forced unknowingly to think in a more verbal way than a . Yeahah yeah I mean, we there is no bottom to the to the journey of finding the discrete ways humans are different. And if we want to name all those discrete ways We can there might come a time where you're like, all No one's normal anymore. We've all got our own things. That's true. Normal I suspect that's the future. We will tend towards being like, o you're this type, you're this type, you're this type And then there'll be a a diagnostic, a change in how we feel and we'll go like we're going to delete some of those types because this ever more discrete categorization of human attributes is functionally actually more trouble than it' worth. When you say delete, you mean not the Dlete. Ccel. We're canceling whatever it's not calling it that. I find it incredibly interesting. People are very protective of words and understandably, especially if it helps them make sense of themselves.es, but that doesn't mean they're going to be there forever, you know see what we mean. That's we called a semantic treadmill. we keep chasing better descriptors and and trying to move past ones that now carry negative baggage, but Well that'sue ye, it never happened's true It never fixes it. Never fixes. So what aside from not being involved in City Bangbang at all, is there anything exciting coming up for us? Well, there's a lot, so I am ostensibly underground. I'm here I'm here writing doing a little bit of press for the tool, a little bit of press for for paperback But I have decided having done unfunny show book to a songs the world will never hear sort of back to back and being quite present, especially inustalia, I'm a bit Satur U that I'm basically going to disappear for add in months. o and just write back to back I always knew after Matilda and Grround Hog Day that actually my whole comedy career, whatever really I'm a theatrical songrite thereist comp puzzerrist I write. Even my songs that are just singles. they're mostly Storytell, and I remember distinctly thinking after Ground Hog Day. Okay, I should do lots more of that Just wait Because I've always wanted to act, I want to put out an album. I'm going to go to L.A blahah. I' gonna make animated film, all those things. And mostly I did them. Yeah And I'm very Proud I didn't need them all to be As big as my comedy career, as big as Matilda, I just needed I just want to do them. And I'll keep doing that. I will do two or three more albums maybe in the next twenty years. I will act again. I'm still hopefully Artful Dodgeer will go to season three and this is Disney plus show I'm just playing a baddy and it's like it's fine. Yeah. I mean, it's a great show, but it's like, it's not For me, it's just a lovely gift of a thing I get to do I basically spent my forties cheicking boxes and I remember thinking, I need to get on with the sort of stuff that reads better on a forty something And in my fifties I can get that. And so weirdly sort of unconsciously I've landed back in a place where I just think I should write some musicals and some musical films. and I mean, I've got to song The new Cat and the Hat movie which com out on Thanksgiving, is like bookkeed by my song you know, like just doing these little jobs where I get to do the thing I'm probably most unique atat andat rym with Twat if you want to than you. You want to use that. I'm trying to work for big corporations, Rich. Can you let me? It's all me they won't they won't employ me. It's all me. So yeah, I'm going to write. I'm gonna I'm gonna to see whether I can do eighteen months of just writing without exploding with need for someone to clap me. Yes. Good. Well, I think that's good. You know, you're creating such amazing stuff. It's already I mean, it is you've done as you say, you've done, you know, so many different things And I think the Writing the musicals and writing film stuff is probably who you actually are underneath it all, but I think it's I love unpacking story. Where's the song But I you know, I still want to see you performing because I think you're an amazing performer. And you're the only person I've ever seen in the Millennium Dome, whatever that's called now that that's the only show that ever made sense in that Thatace. Yeah, the only comedy show. Yeah, you know, I've seen some Moke. I saw Seinfeld there and I was near the front so that was just like being in the theater. Yeah. I was you know, to see that big thing done in this big thing. I was very insagent that if I was going to do arerenas I would make it an arena show. Yeah. So it really was. It is kind of why I retired from comedy to the extent that I have, I'm just like All right, well I yes I did musical comedy. L I don't know what I'm going to do go beond Yeah. Monty Python work were okay as well in that space, I have to say. But it was that was a different experience. It about screens and video and Yeah yeah ye. but you know, they did do a big spectacular thing then it was obviously like The last time they were all not all of them quite near and all that art, you know, all yeah aesthetic that was so fundamental to who they were. I can imagine that working. Well I really resisted it and I wasn't going to go and then someone said I was on holiday someone said someone said, you should go And I bought like a scalp some tickets and I was near the front it was great and you know, you go, yeah, it was definitely worth see that. But it was a different kind of thing than you think. But anyway As Tim Mentchioned Go and read his books and watch him on his TV shows. Dodger, haven't seen Dodger. Just type Timinchion nude into Google see happens and verify your age. go and see Matilda, if you haven't seen it already. there's a musical of it, you can watch it on Netflix on the Netflix? Yeah. Verty good. Less has gone all right I'll see you in five or six years. Yeah.