The Craft of Acting and Vulnerability

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Find Zin, America's number one nicotine pouch brand at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine, nicotine is an addictive chemical. When you have too much of a good thing Can you That's the question. Well, if it's only a good thing, you can But if it's rose part I'm sure you can't. Of course you can't. That's why this Tuesday, we're bringing you every Tuesday more roosebud Stay tuned Hear the music This is Chiles Bradrth with another episode of More Rosebud. This is Rosebud launched on a Tuesday. Every other Tuesday we dip into my diaries from half a century ago, but then every other Tuesday, we have a guest and this week it's a very special guest, one of my Favorite actors and I'm here with my producer and friend, Harriet Jane. Tell everybody who our guest is going to be in just a moment is Adrianne Lester Do you know his work? Do you admire his work? I love his work. Yeah. I first fell seriously in love with his work When I saw a film version of Love's Labour's Lost The Shakespeare. you talk about that? Yeah. Directed by Kenneth Branner, musical version. And I just thought, I'd already seen him, I think at the RSC. and I thought, yeah, he's great. But in this, he had such swagger and style and it's just fantastic. And the reason I'm excited that we've got him as a guest this week is that he's appearing in the west End of London, I think at the Noel Coward Theatre. They now love to name theatres after playwrights. It was quite satisfactory to me when it was called the newew Theatre. but anyway, they want to call it that. There's going to be a Judy Dench theatre No. The Duke of York is going to be called the Judy Dench.. O is that no That's the Saftbury is? Sasbury? Yeahah. The Duke of Yorks is going to be called the Tom Stoppard. Well, I'm not surprised they're changing the name of that Yeah, but the grand old Duke of Yorker was named after. He never didn't with any harm So far as we know. When's the Charles Brandrith Theatre opening? It's going to be a puppet show theatre on the Beach of Broadstairs. Oh Yeah. It' a good idea A couple of summers from now. C did. Yeah. I do think it's fun. Adriid Nester is appearing at the Norkard Theatre in a production of One of My favorite plays outside the works of William Shakespeare And on check offff Hendrich Iibson. My favorite playwright Overall probably could be Gegees Fedau who wrote as one of French vasses But this is my fourth favorite playwright And I've read several of his plays. There's only one that works What is the play? Serano de Bergerat. And you know the name of the author? Possibly not, in your head. Is it Ros Well done, Edmond Orston, who when I first saw this play as a child, it's a great romantic comedy tragedy. It's the story of the guy with the huge nose. If you don't know I don't want to tell you the story because you must go and see the play. If you haven't see the play There are various movie versions of it, one very brilliant contemporary movie version with Steve Martin. But the classic one is with Jardes dees Pardieu. It's a most wonderful play. I would say after well Arguably, could you almost say the best play written in the nineteenth century? Well, apart from the importance of being earnest. That's Eactly. It possibly rivals that. Yeah. becausecause there's emotion in this. There's a romance. Yeah. The importance of being earnest is an outstanding comedy, but this is a play about life and about love. Well it's perfect for you, Jars because it's about love letters and you're a big love letter writer, aren't you? I am. Yeah. I still believe in the love letter. Loving that play, I read the rest of Austin's work, starting with Leglon. which is our most famous play. That looks good. Yeah, it isn't. Oh dear. It's about Napoleon's son, Napoleon I second. And Leglon, he aspires to be the eagle. He isn't the eagle. and it didn't work for me when I read it And I don't think it's been successfully produced that way. All I'm saying is I have a lot of emotional investment in the play surrounded of Bererac We've had a couple of brilliant Sranas as guests already, you know on Rosebud in the shape of Derek Jacabe. So Derek Jacabe and Robert Lindseay. Of course. Oh, he would be good. Yeah. Be you do need a great swash buuckling styar. Yeah. inccredible. I could have played it with a bit of humour. Hour. Yeah. Aazing sword fighting. We like a huge nose It's a heartbreaking love story. It's completely fantastic And I have to say, I was very pleas to see when Adrianne Leester opened the other day. I only saw one review, but it was a five star review. I bet all of them have been five star revs. I can't wait to see it. Yeah, you must to see it. I saw it in Strapadorne Avven. It's directed by a friend of our, Simon Evans. I say a friend of ours. When Bennett, Karsa and I, my son, daughter in law and I, took part in a production of Hamlet It was directed by Simon Evans and David Coowller. So we know Simon's work well We love this And I think people are going to enjoy This conversation which is very frank It's not really about Srano at all, it's about acting. It's about life. It's about, well, love. It is about love It's all lot about loving' it It's a worthwhile listen. So welcome to Rosebud with Adrianne Lester He the music ter born the fourteenth of august, nineteen sixty eight. Got that it right? Yes, yeah. So far so good. Cast your mind back, Adrian. What is your very, very first memory? Um My very first memory is standing in front of my grandfather's house, the family home in Birmingham the house he managed to buy with friends when he came over in fifty four. There's two things to this. it's a photograph that's been taken. So I remember standing and feeling really big and I was in a new And I was standing there and I'd been putting these trousers and they were pressed and I remember thinking I can't get this dirty and I was standing there and being really kind of. And that is my first memory. And it was quite weird because I remember the moment walking out holding my mom's hand and she said, Stand right there and turn this way. and there was so much to see. And so I must have been qu one of those three year olds that was looking around at you say, St still But yeah, I was about three years old. So tell us first of all about your grandfather who came over from where in nineteen fifty four. And why was he buying it with friends and who were the friends? He came over in ' fifty four. The family' probably listening to this and we'll be shouting. No, it wasn't. But I think it was fifty four. And part of the Windrush generation, in many cases the men came first and they found work And this was he came from Jamaica. Yeah, came from Jamaica. What parish? Oh to St Mary. Loly. Saint Mary. I've been back. There's a place called forty two in Staint Mary I don't know why it's called forty two, but it's like a little area around a river with a shop and facilities and things. And so the guys came over, he got to know friends. and so they did the thing of They would work, they would share a room, pull their money together, and they would actually all save their money as a group until they could make a cash deposit on a house. Brilliant. What work was he doing? He's a trained tailor, but of course, in those days coming over as an immigrant, you couldn't get the job that you were trained to do So I think he worked cabling in a television company and he worked on the buses as well. And he did a number of jobs before he managed to settle down and do the job that brought his kids over and his wife over, and know then kids his kids had me, my generation. And it's a typical wind Russ immigrant story of the country inviting people in and saying we need your help to rebuild and we need your help. And then people came and then the reception they got on the ground was completely different This area is failing because of you lot and you can't do this and you can't do that. And so you couldn't do the jobs that you were trained to do. There was there was a bus boycott because there was a rule, a color bar where no black person could be employed in a position that was over a white worker Re? England in the nineteen fifties. So there was like an unwritten rule. But it was an unwritten rule. Unwritten just noobbody was promoted Eactly. If they were going to be promoted above Yes. that n. Yes. It had to be that you had to be wow. You had to be beneath the white people around you so that you could There was a feeling of theyre coming here and taking stuff from us. So this rhetoric has been used for decades and it's very, very boring. But that generation had to deal with that. And so the methodology of buying houses, you couldn't go to a bank, you couldn't do the buildilding society thing. wast A trustworthy space. and so the men got together and they did it for themselves. So this was your grandfather's house. Grandfather's house. Yeah. And he is the father of your mother.. He's my mom's dad. And what is your mum's name? My mom's name is Monica. Monica. Yeah. What's her surn name? Harvey. Harvey. Monica Harvey. Yeah, Daughter of your grandfather who called him granddad or grandpa or grandpa. grandpa. Yeah So he's grandpa Harvey? He's grandpa Lester. My mum's married name is Harvey. Oh Oh very good. So you've reverted to the reverted to the family' named after your grandfather. I'm named after some cousins and my grandfather's surnames. They good. So what is she like? What was she like in We're talking now about the early nineteen seventies when you're two or three years of age, this photograph's being taken. she like then? What remember her I remember her she was a secretary And she' still alive? She is, yes, she is. Thankkfully. She's still alive. And I remember her I remember colour and music. I remember that a lot. There was a lot of fun. I remember the outside world being quite quiet and restrained school and the way kids spoke to their parents and all of those things. And then I remember being at home and being in that house, my granddad had three kids. my mom, my auntie, Shirley and my uncle, Jude. and I remember that the kids of those kids in the house were all cousins It was It was a noisy, vibrant place to be. and we all got on like a house and fire. You you shred a room with. I shared rooms ye, we slept head to toe with cousins, you know, those in those very early years. And we took turns to do chores and we had our arguments and we had an little boys and we had our arguments and we had and all we lived you know together in that house. Before we moved out, I was nine years old when we moved out. And even when we moved out, it's a traditional thing. Every Sunday, my grandma would cook the Sunday dinner and wherever we'd moved out to, the families would come back together and eat together on a Sunday. This is grandpa Leester's wife. Yes And she cooked a really good standundard? Yes, And what kind of thing? It was all ground provision, which is what's provided to you from the ground, root vegetables and so on, sweet potato, yams and so on. And then you had plantin and it was basically what you could find from home from Jamaica, brought to a table in Birmingham And I remember being in the kitchen being very, very young and watching my momum get told what to do in the kitchen. And I remember thinking, this is the dynamic, and even now I think about it, I think it's a really good dynamic to see. is to see your mom being a daughter, to see your dad being a son, and to see them respectfully nod and say yes, yes, papa and yes, mummy to someone who's older than them. because you then say yes mummy to her. and so she's saying yes mummy to someone older. And did you speak with a Jamaican patois? I didn't know. But they did between themselves Yeah, my grandparents definitely did. That was they spoke patois in the house And then my parents' age, there was a hybrid mix. you know the accent would like almost coode switching, the accent would shift depending on who you spoke to or how late it was in the evening and how loud you were being with friends, as we all do, you know. Was your father on the scene at the time My dad was, but he wasn't really part of that household He would come in and out of it and he would be away for work. He was a lorry driver at the time, so he would be away for work and driving everywhere. And then when we moved out, he was with us for a bit and then my mum and dad separated and he went his own way. Have got What have you got from each of them? I mean, he disappeared, but do you have things in you, do you think that you owe to him Um Yeah, I think the thing that we grew up with is we learn more from It's strange. I think the stuff that's positive about us is just in our blood, but we learn more consciously from loss than we do from things we've had and wish to share. I feel like the kind of person I am is based on the kind of things I didn't have and the things I want to secure for my children. And so I always choose the path of what should be because I've had a sense of what could be and it didn't feel pleasant. Who's your first friend outside of the home? oututside of your cousins Pool. I don't remember any from my first school, but I don't really remember that school. I was there in infant things like. Ye ago. I had a couple of friends from my primary school, which was Saint Catherine's, which was just off the Bristol Road. But then when I came to London, the whole thing shifted and I went to drama school, and I kind of there was a fisure in my upbringing and that world, and then the world I moved into would to become an actor. Oh So there are two worlds you've lived in. There's Birmingham childildhood world. And then the world that you now inhabit where The shoulders go back, the head comes a bit higher. There's all that going. The fibrato happens in the voice There's that wor But stick with you as a child for us As a child.t My secondary school, I had a friend called Wazie Montas. and he very studious kid, very nice kid, got great grades, and then friends from youth Theatre that I had when I was there who a couple of people I still see, who've known me since I was fourteen years old. But the performing bug began before that because at your primary school you were in performance, weren't you? At my primary school I was singing And then I joined Cathedral choir I joined Stin Chad's Cathedral Choire. Oh, when I was nine, so who encouraged that? Who discovered that you had a voice that was worth thinking about and developing? It was one of the teachers at my primary school. You Remember their name? Anna McAallister. And I remember she really encouraged me and I think it was through her a suggestion through her when the cathedral was looking for Trebles she put my name forward and I went for an audition. Was that, you think a moment that changed and defined your life? It was, it was definitely a moment that did that. I stood up in front of them and I sang and they said, Please come and join us. Lve And you like being a Corister? I did really enjoy it. I really enjoy. Did you have a surplus and a rough? I had a surplus, I had a rough. I got my choristersedal Oh yeah good, good. Just before my voice broke, Yes, my voice has broken. and you can't tell. But just before my voice broke, and I was there from the age of nine till about Oh, it was a huge part of your life. Yeah It was your life in many ways. I mean, didid you feel in some ways that school was what you did during the week? But then Wednesday evening, chriet practice, Saturdays, Sundays That's definitely my life became, I did school because I was supposed to and weekends every Thursday night Saturday morning and then Sunday for Mass. that was the sort of timetable. and like clockwork every week I did that week in week out. In your four years as a Cister, give me the best moment and the worst. What was the sweetest moment for you? The sweetest moment first, I remember and I think this is a trigger for later performing and taking this path that I have taken. The sweetest moment was we were the steps at the front of the altar. the cathedral is lovely and you know guilt and big and echoy and it's a beautiful place to sing. And we were on the steps the full choir was on the steps of the altar. There's a name for that. I don't know what it is, we' on these steps going up to the altar to where the choir normally sit but we were on the steps this time. we had the sheet music in front of us and we were doing Loti's crutif fixus, which breaks the four part harmony of the choir into eight parts. And so I remember holding a line with two, maybe three other young boys against the whole choir. And I remember looking up at one point from the sheet music and looking at the congregation. and people in the first few pews had tears in their eyes. And I remember thinking, I wondered what was making them cry because We weren't moved as the choir. We were simply doing something very technical, but they were crying. So something was happening between us and them. There was some alchemy taking place. And that made me very, very interested in the power of being able to tell stories and share music and it was a little seed that was planted at that moment that's grown ever since. I remember that moment, clearly, that was a good moment. Completely fascinating. Well, no, from your point of view, because you were discovering that emotional engagement with an audience. Yeah. And then thinking, how is this being achieved? Yes. And I didn't know what that was. Now the worst thing that happened The naughtiest moment or the most disobliging other colister. were they were friendly the Cisters They were all very friendly. All booys was it? All yeah, yeah, male voice choir. They were all very friendly. and it was the first time I got to work closely with people who had lives very different to mine in Birmingham, you know, very different. And Did you go to their homes ever? Did you No? No, notot really, No we would gather and I remember we had a party. there was going to be a party after we gave a performance, a recital. There was going to be a party in we had this sort of ante room and it was next to the cathedral and we had a party in there and we all met in there. And I remember going to this party thinking it's going to be a party. And I remember walking in and everyone was standing around. there was a polite hubub of chatter Everyone was standing around having drinks. and I walked in thinking, whereere's the party? Because every party I'd been since I was growing up was absolutely Jamaican themed, it was a party. So I walked in thinking, Oh and there was some food laid out and everyone was standing and just chatting. And I thought, All right. O. And you know we kids we occupied ourselves for a bit and then parents came and picked us up and went we went home Big newews fromom Zin, America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Three new flavors are here. Live boldly with black cherry Make your day sweeter with peach, or go tropical with vibrant dragonbererry. You've never experienced flavor like this. And they're all available in both three and six milligrams. Which one are you grubbing first? Find Zin, America's number one nicotine pouch fra at a store near you. Warning, this product contains nicotine, nicotine is an addictive chemical Introducing the tootal Solutions advantage only from Comcast Business. It's the largest fastest fiber powered network for small business, gig speeds with equipment and security included and a five year price lock No one does business like Ccast business Switich today? Get started for sixty dollars a month for twelve months when you add an advanced solution to a qualifying internet package. Limited time offer. restestrictions apply. N customers only. requires three hundred megab per second interternet, securityedge and additionalifying service, one year agreement, paperless billing and autoay bank account required. tax and fees extra Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer They tune in every week, they trust the host, and that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet. We're a cast where that introduction happens as the world's largest podcast marketplace. We let you brow shows, see who's listening post read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform. Transparent pricing, real time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast d. com slash advertise By this time when you're thirteen or fourteen, do you feel more of an outsider at home or in the choir U Yes. I felt very home. A bit of aameleon really, I felt very at home in the choir and very at home at home. And by then we'd moved and were living in a council flat just off the Bristol Road, very close to Saint Catherine' School where I'd gone. And I felt very at home in both places, but I also spent it was either choir or I spent my time at the Midlands Art Centre And What happened there? What was your life there? Well, I joined, a friend at Choire said you should join the children's opera compomany at the Midlands Art Center. so I went along and I sang for them and I got in. It's great these opportunities were available, isn't it? Well, this is my this is my whole thing. I'm a kid and I can't afford to pay for all of this stuff I'm not from the nominal culture where this stuff is appreciated. and I've luckily found that people have come, opened the doors and said come in. So there I am in Birmingham, and I'm going to the Midlands Art Centre. and I joined the Opera Company and I remember doing it was a new piece written by Richard Blackford called Dragon Tales of Granny Chang. and the idea being that we were a group of kids that were in a village and when the adults went out to work, we entertained ourselves with stories and those were the pieces of the opera. I had a solo, but this is the point. members of the Youth Theatre, because the kids, we were young, we stood and we sang. but the members of the Youth Theatre would do a dumb show and mime what the stories were. And I was watching them. I kept trying to watch the conductor because it was in such a complicated time signature But my eyes kept drifting over to what the youth Theatater were doing, members of the Youth Theatater who were all older than me. And they were doing incredible things. There was like five or six of them. but at one moment one of them would become old and then being assisted by the others. and then they would turn and suddenly become something else. thenen they would suddenly become a dragon trailing each other across the stage. Then one of them would get on the back use a whip like a lash and then they would get down again and become flowers. and I was watching this Very good movement, and I was fascinated because I was thinking How are you doing that? Again, more than somem of their parts. And I thought what are they? And then I learned that that was the Youth Theatre. And so I wanted to join the Youth Theatre. That was it. I wanted to. And you did. And I did Yeah, I auditioned and I thought I have to be a part of this, youth feel. So this is where your life is blossoming. Yes. in a sense you're leading two lives att home, you're totally happy.. You're quite content. you love your mum..our dad has disappeared by now, but you still have your brothers and sisters m mom brother, cousins. we always go to the same house and we know share So that you almost take for granted. That's my life. That's good. You go to school because we go to school. Family is very strong But it's the cathedral and it's the youth and it's the opera. this is where you flower. This is where I am, Adrian. Yes. This, I imagine, is where you first discover girls. U Yes Um Yes, I suppose my first sort of ever ever girlfriend was a family friend, a woman the daughter of my mom's friend whom my mum is still in touch with now, but it was very much hand holding and I like you, I like you too type very early teenagers. I may say so, I should hope so. Yes, absolutely. That was absolutely. kids. I mean, it was sort of very very. was it quite exciting. Can you remember the first hand holding moment Yes, yeah, absolutely. And I remember if you remember it, Kary, where was it? It was in my mom had gone round to visit her friend and I liked that idea because I got to see this her daughter. And we just sort of chatted and were very smily with each other. but I remember the moment where where it was reciprocated, where the interest and feeling that you had of I really like being with you, I really like talking to you, really like that was reciprocated with the holding of a hand and the reach for the other hand back. And that feeling of Oh, you like me too type thing. That feeling is that you know, I remember that very clearly and going, Oh, oh, I know what this is. I you know all those things. It was very very yeah, I was young. It didn't last very long. No, not too long. No. But in the theater group, I imagine there were There was there was I didn't want actually there were lots of girls and there was a group of us that hung out together, quite specifically, like four or five of us hung out together all the time, but not really in a romantic way, we were just really good friends. So you'd become totally passionate, engrossed with music and theatre. And what's the source of this? What's within whyy is this happening to you? I'm the only one in my family who's gone down this route. The appreciation of the arts is always very strong in the family, but no one's gone into practicing it And I think as we've been talking about, I think the steps the seeds have been planted along the way with the choir and then the performance and observing an audience in performance and wondering what that is and gently becoming a part of it and seeing things and they're making me laugh and be upset and be excited I always wondered how that was achieved. and so you know I just followed that path. and it's a Rubik's cube, it's a puzzle. And as soon as I' taken care of one side movement, I wanted to tackle another side which was voice, and then I wanted to tackle another side which was text. But once you turn your attention to one side of the Rubik's cube the other colors disappear, you have to go back and work on them again reorking them. And if you put it down thinking it's done and you put that cube down with its various facades, you come back to it three days later and the colour those have changed and you have to work on it again. Did you find fellow students at home with this? Be you obviously you're a real craftsperson thinking about the detail of this. wereere their friends and fellows who were with you on the same journey In the youth theater, yeah, ye Yeah. And then you find romance? I'm asking for a reason which I'll explain in a moment. You find romance at the Yes at the Cassics Film College, Yes. ye. And is the proper romance? Proper romance. Yes. Fey was a dancer and she was my first serious relationship. I was seventeen, sixteen, seventeen, and we just you know blossomed under each other's attention and she danced and I would watch her dance and thought it was amazing what she could do. And I was, you know into my acting and I loveved dancing too, but I couldn't dance like that. It was you So she wanted to go and study dance and I wanted to go study and be an actor. But I'm just remembering her now and remembering that period and just smiling and beaming across my face. But the things started to separate, of course, when I left Birmingham I went to drama school. And so when I went to drama school then I was in my first year And which drama school was this? I went to Rada. Rada. The big one, The famous one. It the Royalcademy. The Royal Academy And did you get up for the famous ones? one of the big? it is the big one. It is the big one because it was there at the beginning. And did you get in easily? Did you just What were your audition pieces? I auditioned with a U a new piece which was again, this was something that the youth Theatre was involved in. Derek Nichols also ran the Birmingham Rep, and he had a thing called The Young Company going. So he audition actors that had just left drama school. he'd have them in the Young Comany for a year. So as a young actor, you were watching people who just left drama school play at the Birmingham Rep in a rep company and you'd watch how well they were able to change their physicality and their voices and connect with the roles and it was fascinating. So he encouraged you to He apply for Rada. He encouraged me to apply for drama school and apply for Rada. And I'd also by then I'd written the play and taken it on us a very, very small tour centers. You'd written a play. Yeah, yeah. I mean new theatre. My gosh, you were really committed to'd written a play. What was the theme of this play? The theme of the play it was one of my cousins had unfortunately he'd slipped through a couple of cracks in care and ended up having to sleep rough for a few nights So I wrote a play, I started to look at it and I wrote a play about a woman who fostered three kids in the transition for them being sort of fifteen, sixteen, seventeen until they were adults. And you managed to get this put on and you tk it The youth theatater did it. It was one set, you know three locations, it was just in her house And it was just about the kids talking to each other and the youth Theatater helped me develop it. I improvised a lot with my fellow actors and I noted down the good moments, the good moments of tension and so on and I did a bit of a michaely on it. and then I went away and wrote the play and it was called And Three'es a Crowd And we did it in the Hexagon theatre then at the Midlands Art Centre. and then the youth theatre and the At centre helped contact other venues that could take the play. And yeah, we did it two or three other venues in Birmingham. Before we get to your time at Rada, the reason I'm asking you about your romantic life is this I regard you as a bit of a connoisseur of love. This is because I have watched your work develop over the years. Yeah. I remember you as Henry V. Rightes. And the little scene you described there of you and your mother's friend's daughter,, your first girlfriend, reminded me of that wonderful scene you have with the Princess of France. Yes. It's a very delicate, flirtatious scene. Yes,es. So I think about that. I mean, I've followed you and I see you as somebody who understands the nature of love You were in one of my favorite films, Love S Lab's Lost. Ja, Yes. a film directed by Kenneth Branner. Yes. A musical version Yes wonderful play about the nature of love and relationships. Not given the reception it deserved in my view They were sensational in it. Thank you. So whenever I see you, I'm interested in you in relation to the girls.. Love Ds, people who don't know it is actually a story about four young men who think they can do without women and say we' not do with women then the women come along, and of course they can't even begin to do without them. And it's quite funny because It's a play about strong women and foolish men.. So it's the story of the world. And it was written four hundred years ago.. And most recently I've seen you in Serrano de Berac, which arguably is one of the best plays written in French in the nineteenth century. In fact, it could be considered the best U George Fideau would argue about that. But eighteen ninety seven, it's an extraordinary romantic story. So I've seen you evolving And I imagine because of the where youve been talking, that you are a thoughtful person I would like you to tell me something about the evolution of love in your life. B So I sit in front of you as a divorced man of fifty seven who has grown children. As is said, palm to sky. I have to say that I'm still learning. But you're clearly observing as you learn. because what's interesting to me is seeing the evolution of all this is how when you're doing these things, it seems totally real So there is that playful innocence in Henry V. When I saw your Hamlet, it's much more complicated. We'll come back to that what his relationship is with Ophelia. But to come forward to Serano, I hope people know the story. It's the story about a man who is flamboyant, who is a soldier, who is brilliant, who is strong, who has a way with words and is human genius, but unfortunately is not necessarily good looking by normal standards because he has this huge conk, big noseose. And he falls for this girl who obviously fanies s not entirely dopey, but a younger man who is more obviously attractive, who's not articulate, can't do what Serano can do. and Serano plays the part is the surrogate lover. And then eventually we get the payoff at the end. Yes. But since you as part and par of what you do, put these characters onto the stage and Uh, they are emotionally affecting, as you can see, I'm intrigued by the journey you have gone on and whether during any of your romances or during your marriage, you're aware that you've learned anything from the parts you play, whether it feeds into the work you do. Be you must have thought a lot about this because the way you talk about your craft I Yes, yes, and thank you for what you said. For me, the journey is about acknowledging how vulnerable characters have to be and you as a person have to be in the middle of loving someone. And I think that what I've seen in the work that I've done is I've seen parts, great writers pick apart that feeling of vulnerability and risk and all the emotions that rise from it Are these characters that are desperately trying to speak to another person in the same language They are desperately trying to say, Can you see me Can you hear me And What you see and what you hear, do you accept it? And when it works, that's what's happening. When it works, that so that's The good times when you' rather meet the person who becomes for wild your wife. Yes, that's working betweenween you. the voices are well in harmony using your musical background.'. And that is magical because you're making sweet music together. Yes Have you done much Ibsen or Checkov? I've never done Ibsen or cheheckkov. You need to do these. I know. need to do big g. We will work on this now. the mission from today onwards, because they so brilliantly explore that sweet music is in the past in their place and we're meeting the characters when somehow there's a dissonance. Yes. there's an unfortunate twang. something is going wrong. And obviously that has happened to you in your time. Yes. is that Why has it happened to you? That's one What I'm really exploring is since you've observed this so brilliantly on stage. Can you see why it has gone wrong for you? Yes, I can see why it ended. It was very much a decision that I made, very much a decision that I made and very much a few mistakes as well that in relating that I fell into based on insecurity and based on this dissonance that lay between us. And also an ability to Because you're trying to prop up and hold on to something that was is very, very good, but no longer feels good for you, you keep and all of us do this, we keep going through the motions of making it work until the feeling returns. you know ups and downs that you will have over a number of years in a relationship, you keep propping and supporting and so on, waiting for that feeling to come at the same time as you're trying to talk about why the feeling has gone and trying to you know prop things up. And it's just that dissonance, the miscommunication, the understanding, the true understanding that no, actually I am no longer being seen and having to accept that truly I'm no longer being seen, and I'm no longer being heard. And that's gone. and whatever I thought I was doing, whatever I thought I was trying to achieve, these two things now are no longer true and the deep deep sadness that comes from that is u It's profoundly upsetting. You know, I was going into places and the lack of confidence, the unhappiness, the thread, that kind of fire had sort of left me and I was still trying to pedal the wheels of a stationary bike and say, No, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. until I suddenly went I'm not and I and I and I can't in the world of trying to make things work. Um can lose your centre, stop protecting your own boundaries and just give yourself over to what you're supposed to do and keep doing that and thin in thinking that that will return the heat and flavor of your relationship. I hope so. because if you're an actor on stage, I can't believe there's ever been a lack of confidence there, even if there has been when things have been rough at home. There has been moments where In my work, I've not been able to remember lines, I've been completely underconfident in my decisions, and I've had to take almost take myself to one side and really work on maintaining what I had done before in a new role. I remember doing that various performances until now, it's almost like I've come full circle with Sirino or I've come back to who I am and what I do and what I know. And in Sirino I've found again I've I've hit my touchstone of being able to express myself fully with all that confidence. It's such an extraordinary story too. It's so brilliant. Its a great It's a great place to do it with. It's a great play to do it with. Well, I wish you good luck in the future because there, I mean, is there anybody possibly on the scene? We don't need any details. Yes. They're good, I'm pleased. Yes. Big newews fromrom Zin, America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Three new flavors are here. Live boldly with black cherry. makeake your day sweeter with peach, or go tropical with vibrant dragonbererry. You've never experienced flavor like this. And they're all available in both three and six milligrams Which one are you gubbing first? 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How is your dress like. I've still got pictures. The dress is the best bit. In when she dresses up as a boy. Well, that's quite interesting because that's quite interesting to play. That's really interesting. A boy being a girl being a boy It is quite intriguing. I really felt like I was a girl. I mean, of course it's imperanent to say that when there are real women in the world. But I felt I convinced myself, Did you convince yourself I kind of I had this period in rehearsal where it was just terrible I was doing the most er terrible overacting because I was trying to be sort of every woman Because women are like this, women are like that. Women walk like this, womomen sound like this. That's what I was trying to do. And it was just wrong And then I realized that I had to play her And if I was her My sensations, my feelings, I thought, o they're the same. Let's say they're the same. But what does society say I should be if I was a woman? And I realized that for her for my Rosalind, I realized that society would be telling her that she should be smaller, that she's too tall. Society would be telling her that her voice is too low. And so I put upon myself the rules that society says this is what womanhood is. and then the part began to flourish because then the constraint that she releases herself from by putting on the boys's clothes becomes really evident. As soon as she lets go of those rules and says now I can speak as I think and I can can be as I am Then she flies. Nothing we have in common. I'm now thinking, I mean, I'm wanting to be more and more like you as this proit. is that we both appeared in Hamlet.es. I unfortunately wasn't playing the part of Hamlet. But Oh no. But I've given a good Ponius. great. And Claudius, which I think is one of the most wonderful partses, It's both broth, brother Eactly Really intriguing, yes. and I played oldld Hamlet O Hamlet. So I love that. And on our first day of rehearsals, we were directed by Simon Evans, who directed your Serrano. And this is about ten years ago or more. and we're sitting in the rehearsal rooms and guess who is sitting at the next door table, Peter Brook. By then a very very old man. Can you imagine I thought this bodes well. Tell people who Peterbrook was and what it was like being directed by him in Hamlet. What do you learn from that? Peterbrook, very, very famous and world renowned theatre director, he did a production at the RSC of Midsummer Night's Dream. famous one. The famous one, which broke all the rules at the time for how what people thought theatre should be. Everybody on slings and trapezes Bs and trapezes and so on And the critics and the audiences were just what is this? The clarity of the text and they' wonderful. And then he went to the Buf de Noire, his theatre in Paris. and established his company and explored all sorts of plays from all over the world, all sorts of texts. And he's a theatre director's director.ome this man who had directed everybody from Lawrence Olivier, famously Paul Schofield's King Lar, ends up directing you in Hamlet. How did this happen I did Rosind in As You Like it, and then it was so successful, we brought it back to do the play again. Then Peter wanted the production at the Buf de Nor. So we played at the Bouuf de Nor and Peter and I met, we spoke, chatted. and then about I don't know, how many years later I get a phone call, Peter Brook would like to speak to you about a Shakespeare project, to which of course you say, Yes. And I said, Yes. And I spoke to Peter about it and I realized it was Hamlet. And I didn't know, I thought, is it the hererttes? Is it its Peter Brook? And he said it was to play the part of Hamlet. but he just didn't know What version he was going to do and whether it was this or that and he didn't know and he was just exploring and he wanted to do some workshops, he wanted to do some. And I thought, yes, I'll do some workshops. And I realized while doing the workshops that he was actually interested in two other actors, which quickly narrowed down to me and another actor And then eventually he chose that other actor to play the part. Oh no. By which time I was So done with the whole auditioning and I'm not sure and we're exploring and can you be more this, but can you be more that? But can you be more this? And I just after a while I thought pausing and waiting for the thing that you really, really, really, really want It just leaves you pausing and waiting and things are passing you by while you're just waiting. And I thought, I can't do this anymore. I was glad when he called up and said, and he did it personally, I'm sorry, but we're going to go with another actor. We're going to. And my wife is sat beside me, Liter is sat beside me while I'm on the phone with Peter, and I reassure him, I said, If I can't be on stage, I'll be in the audience I just said it just came to me. I said, Look, you are arguably the most famous you, in the English language, the most famous there director there is. You are about to direct the most famous play that there is. The scrutiny that you're going to be under is palpable. And I think no one really thinks about that. They're going to be looking at you going, right, how are you going to tackle This beast of a play. said You have to get the right person, you have to be comfortable with the right actor. And I said, Look, if I can't be on stage, I'll be in the audience because whatever you do it's going to be wonderful. and he thanks me and we spoke and thank you and so on. And said, Goodbye and hung up. And I remember my wife said, He's going to call back. She immediately she just went, He's going to call back. He's going to give you that part And then he called back and offered me the part. Wow. Yeah, two days later he called back and said, Right, no more mucking around, I want you to do it. But what an extraordinary story. yeah. How did she recognize that? And what do you think you were doing that persuaded him this is what she heard my response And it was the right response. Talking about it from his point of view. Yeah. And now is there going to be because you haven't done Macbeth yet, have you? I haven't done Macas No. And you could. That would be a good one for you, Youve got the strength. It was on the c bit. It was on the cards to do it, but that the pandemic put paid to that. and things shifted and I had to do something else But Macas is on the cards as is E in the for of theow. Oh, prorospero and Leah later on of course. Th those three I would Well you will do all that. I' feel bad if I hadn't you will do that. I don't feel fulfilled. If there's any difficulty get in charouge of me, I will raise the money. It will happen It will happen. Actually What about doing Leah with an even older fool I could be the fool. I'm offering my services. I want to be on stage to see all this happen. Yes. Okay. We're reaching the end now. You've had this extraordinary career. A you same person, who was the boy standing? in nineteen the house that was bought in nineteen fifty four by your grandfather in Birmingham, in that photograph? Yes, I am Yeah, I am. And What's been amazing and why I think all the art works when done correctly is that the people that I've encountered who I've thought were very powerful, very famous, very what have you They're all little boys and girls standing in front of their parents' house, having their photo taken, being observed, being stared at and hoping, I hope I get this right. All of them, no matter how powerful they are. From royalty the way down. Three quick final questions., and then we release you into air into thin air, into thin air And you've got to give them the immediate answer. You're not alled to think this o a moment of joy in your life. Oh, a moment of joy in my life. picture it and describe it. I remember My kids being born And there were very different circumstances for the two of them. And I remember my youngest being born. This is Jasmine? Jasmine. And I remember catching her. Oh literally as she came out Literally as she came out into the world. I remember being there and catching her and holding her. Remember that feeling that was amazing Yeah. Say something beautiful about the elder one in case I don't want to create a sibling rivalry. o my goodness, my eldest's called She's called Li And Li She oh my God, she She learned to speak learning the names of dinosaurs.. She took a very good friend of ours. My wife and this friend went round the Natural History Museum and they went with my eldest with Li. and Li took them around like a tour guide. such was her interest All off the curriculum. This is just her reading books at home for interest. And she took them she spoke about the plants and the animals and the development of the skeletal structure and so on and so forth. And I just remember thinking, yeah, that's her. These things fill my chest up to bursting. And a moment of sadness, A moment of sadness watching my mom's reaction when my grandmother was being buried that moment I was young, but the I remember being too small to help. But at that moment my mom didn't want the soil put on there remember her saying, if you do that, she won't be able to get out