Listener Questions and Closing

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and this is Science Versus . The show that pits facts against fast-track drugs . Today , we are talking about Iber gain . And before we dive in, this episode discusses substance abuse and also mentions interpersonal abuse. So please take care while you're listening, and we're gonna put some resources in our show notes. Okay . So I beg an . It's the latest psychedelic drug to you hit the headlines. The Trump administration is very excited about it because people are saying that it could be groundbreaking for mental health, and that Ibergain could cure things like opioid addiction or PTSD. Which got senior producer Meryl Horde, Ph D, very curious about this . Hello, Meryl. Hey, Wendy. Yeah, I wanted to see what this was all about. And so yeah, I started looking into Ibegain. Wendy, have you tried Ibogaine? I have not tried Ibogaine. I I mean it's it's real , it's funny when a new psychedelic hits the headlines, right? We've had so many, and Ibergain kind of felt like it came out of nowhere. That's what it felt like to me, but then as soon as I started getting into it, I realized oh, there's like a whole kind of underground community of people who are very into this drug. And so I I immediately kind of wanted to talk to people who've actually tried this um to see what it actually feels like. Great. So meet Ret Chapman. He's from Arkansas. And he's he's always been a daredevil. I was always an adrenaline junkie my whole life. Uh I really did anything with a board, snowboard, skateboard, long board, uh wakeboard. Not chess board, though. He didn't mention. Okay. But yeah, so one day about fifteen years ago he was hill bombing in the Ozark Mountains, which is basically longboarding super fast down the steep hill and he crashes. Oh gosh. Pretty sure like a a a rock or pebble got into my ball bearing and just just messed everything up and I got all wobbly and yeah, just ate the pavement. So after that crash, he gets taken to a hospital and eventually he needs surgery, like a spinal fusion. And recovery from that was hard. He gets prescribed painkillers. Um, but then he gets hooked on opioids. And then over the next several years things kind of ratchet up. Um he eventually starts using fentanyl. Once I was on that, I I really couldn't do anything. I I couldn't get out of bed without, you know, doing a little line. And he said the withdrawal was super rough. There is physical stuff, puking, cold sweats. But it was the psychological part that got me the most. Um just I was never content . Yeah, it was just always chasing something to get out of that negative feeling that I had. It was about a year ago he told me he was in this really terrible place. My life had completely become unman ageable. Um, you know, I my family, they didn't trust me, my friends didn't want to hang out with me. Um I was hanging on to my relationship with my girlfriend by a thread. And it was at that point where I was like, all right , it it's time to try something. And that something was I began. So Res had heard about Ibegaine, you know, that it could do amazing things for people struggling with addiction. I was intrigued. I mean, from what I had researched, it was almost like it was too good to be true. So he decided to give it a try. He um he went to a clinic in Mexico outside Ciahuana. It overlooked the Pacific Ocean. There was a big uh statue of Jesus with his arms held out wide overlooking the ocean. So that was that was nice, reassuring. Okay, so he gets taken to this room, he lays down, and he's given these capsules with like white powder inside, and then he's given um some eye shades and la ys down. Down the gullet. Yeah . So here's what happened. It was all kind of coming on, and the first thing I noticed was a a loud buzzing noise, kind of like in my ears. I would see visions that didn't really make sense. Kind of just like dolphins walking on land and ele phants with wings and just really off the wall things. Uh i it was very comparable to an intense dream. Then things start getting a little more intense. It was almost like like visions and downloads of my life uh going through my peripheral vision . And I could almost like drive the experience. Like I could kind of take control and I would see one one vision and when I was done with that, I would be like, okay, now let's let's take me to the next one . Like a movie reel of memories going through my vision. And was it like a normal memory? Oh no. It was memories that I deeply tucked under the rug my whole life . And once I hit about the eight hour mark, that's when it it really got intense and that's when I started vomiting and um got real nauseous and was honestly wanting it to end. Mmm . So when does it end? Okay, so I begin trips can be long. That intense phase can last up to twenty hours. Whoa. Mm-hmm. And this is the drug that Trump seems to be pumped about. Joe Rogan, who's sort of an IB again super fan, talked about all this at a big event at the O val Office. He told this story about how he and Trump were texting and after Rogan told Trump how great IBGAIN is. I sent him that information. The text message came back. Sounds great. Do you want FDA approval? Let's do it. It was literally that quick. No . Was it really that quick? So I mean it's not FDA approved y et, but a month ago Trump signed an executive order, fast-tracking research into Ibegaine and other psychedelics because of the potential they show for treating serious mental illness. So today on the show, what do we know about this drug? Something like 16 million people worldwide struggle with opioid addiction, and even more people have PTSD at some point in their lives. Could I ba Game be the solution? And we'll find out if it helps Rets coming up ! This episode of Science Versus is presented by Amazon Health AI. Guys, we gotta talk about your secret late-night internet searches. You know the ones: bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum. Trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. We all do it, but does it always work? Well, you could try Amazon Health AI. It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24-7. So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. Healthcare just got less painful. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Health AI. Guys, we gotta talk about your secret late-night internet searches. You know the ones: bumpy leg rash, hair loss, itchy bum. Trying to figure out your body by endlessly searching for answers. We all do it, but does it always work? Well, you could try Amazon Health AI. It can connect your symptoms with your medical history to offer personalized care 24-7. So call off the search. Amazon Health AI is here. Healthcare just got less painful. Welcome back. Today we're looking into Ibergain and leading us through this trip of the science is senior producer Meryl Horn. Hi Wendy. Hello. Um so Ibergain, can you tell me more about this drug? So Ibogaine is a chemical that comes from the root of the eboga plants, which is native to western Africa. The plant is interesting. It kind of has these like orange fruit. Oh yeah. I'm looking at a picture of it. It's beautiful. Yeah. And the roots are gorgeous as well. So that's where the ibergane comes from. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's been used um by people there for a long time in indigenous medicine uh by people who practice the buitri religion. And so for example, it's taken during an initiation ritual that happens around the time someone becomes a teenager. Mm-hmm. And do we know how it creates a trip? Like what it's doing in your brain? So the way all psychedelic drugs work is by latching onto proteins in your brain and that changes the way that neurons will communicate with each other. So maybe some parts of your brain will like relax a little and maybe other parts of your brain will kind of start talking to each other that don't normally talk so much. So, like for psilo cybin, the thing that's in magic mushrooms, we see tons of changes in activity all over the brain. And so presumably Ibogaine works in a similar way since it also makes us like hallucinate. Uh-huh. But scientists are still working out the details for iBegain, like what brain regions or neurotransmitters are involved. Uh-huh. Okay, so we don't know what it's doing in our brain, but clearly it's doing a lot. We know it's doing something. We know it's doing something. Yeah. Right. And then so, but there are a lot of drugs out there that we don't know the complete mechanism of how they work. Yeah. So one of the big claims is around opioid addiction, like Retz's story. Mm-hmm. Do we have any data here on whether it helps people? We do, yeah. Um, so let's talk to Alan Davis. He's an associate professor at the Ohio State University. We've talked about psychedelics with Alan before. Nice to talk to you again. It's been like seven years. Yeah. Gosh, has it been that long? Yeah, because I interviewed you first in twenty nineteen. And somehow that feels like ten thousand years ago. It does. It really does. We first talked to Alan about psilocybin. He's also done research on DMT. So I w anted to check his temperature about Ibogaine. If all psychedelics were superheroes, would Ibogaine be more like Captain America or someone kind of darker like Wolverine? Certainly on the darker side. You know, these are uh the experiences that IPGAI brings about in people are typically referred to and and discussed as very challenging and difficult experiences. I almost you know in fact when you started to bring up the metaphor of superhero, actually the first person that came to my mind was Loki . Wait, I'm sorry, I'm not a pick up nerd who is not Well Loki is actually more of like a villain in the superhero universe. Uh but the reason that comes to my mind is because it is a rather you know, it can be a rather dark experience for people. And for Rhett's, he did have a hard trip. He said that all these traumatic memories came up, like this time in his life when he was getting abused, actually. Oh gosh. And that's not uncommon to relive the darkest periods of your life while you're on Ibogaine. But still, all the things that Alan heard did make him curious about this drug because he started meeting people at conferences, so this was back in 2013 , who had taken ibogaine for addiction and they were telling him that it really helps them. So Alan figured like, okay, let's study this, because he was on the hunt for something that could really help people uh struggling with opioid addiction. So what did he do? So he like went out and found a clinic, uh, an Ibegan clinic in Mexico that was willing to team up with him and do a study on IBAI together. Oh, was it the same one that Retz went to? No, it it was in Tijuana, but it was a different clinic. This one had been around for a while. It was one of the first clinics to treat people for uh addiction with iboga ine. And the clinic kept all this contact information of the people who had gone there. Uh-huh. So it's kind of perfect because then Alan and his team could get in touch with them and get them to fill out a survey about what happened. Right. So what happened? Well, so they got 88 people to do the survey. Here's what he found . Well, people report that it has a pretty profound impact on their craving and their withdrawal symptoms. So 80% of the people in our studies said that there was a a a a large decrease in those um components of their detoxification. 80% of them said that it was like way better organ . Oh yeah that it was it was much better or or eliminated completely. Wow. How many people did they reach out to? So 88 folks responded to the survey, but I'm wondering if it was like just finding the people where it worked. Yeah, yeah, just because with surveys like this, if you have an opioid addiction and you go to a clinic in Tijuana and you try this drug and it doesn't work for you, and two years later some researchers contact you and say, How was that? Yeah. I feel like if it didn't , I'd go f you 'll spend more time on this. It didn't work . Exactly. Okay, so in the study they reached out to 2 85 people and only 88 of them got back. So yeah, valid concern. But there have been other studies too that didn't seem to have this issue to me. Like there is a study that got all the charts from a bunch of people who went to an Ibogaine clinic and looked at how well it worked for them. There are also studies that follow people along as they try Ibogaine for opioid addiction. So yeah, I found five of these studies all together, including Alan's, and they all found similarly impressive results. Most people said that ibigaine really helps their withdrawal symptoms after taking it. Uh-huh. Wow. So this seems like a real effect. Okay. Okay. Um I I asked Alan about what he thought at the time when he saw his results. Well it was pretty profound, you know, at the time to to see that, you know, so many people had said that there was this huge impact on their function ing really quite immediately. Um, you know, especially coming from where I came from with my, you know, experience in substance use treatment and and and trying to help people in that space. So had you ever seen anything that that worked well to just like bam? Wow. No. Yeah . Mmm . And what happened to Rhett's? Okay, yeah, let's go back to Rhett's story. So even though he said that, you know, his trip was like extremely hard to like revisit these traumatic things that happened to him, doing all that, it did kind of change the way that he looked at that period of his life and the person who abused him.. Hmm After this experience, after revisiting that memory, I kind of forgave myself and that person . Um, to where there was no more shame and guilt attached to that exp to that memory. And so yeah, after this was all over, he said he felt really good. I came out of there just so happy and I would I felt like I wouldn't want to trade my life with anyone else's. Wow. But then what happened with his opioid addiction? Yeah. I asked him. And so what happened to your the like gravings and the withdrawal symptoms and all and all that? Yeah. I mean it all dissipated, like it was non-existent. It was just magical. They were just gone, like you just didn't want to do opiates anymore? I didn't want to do anything like Advil repulsed me. Like anything that I put in my body, like I was just totally cool with just living life on life's terms. And I did talk to one other person who tried Ibigaine to break an addiction, Holly. So leading up to it, she had an abusive partner and she she started using opioids kind of casually at first, and then one of her kids got diagnosed with muscular dystrophy. He would end up dying from it. And it was during his illness that Holly really found herself needing drugs to cope. It's the worst kind of pain. And it it was a it is a pain I couldn't escape. And I I really think that's what kind of kept me in my cycle that where I had to kind of stay numb to function ? This went on for years and, you know, ultimately she found a new and supportive partner, but w she was still struggling with drugs. So she gave Ibegan to go. And it was also a hard experience for her. She kind of felt like she was confronting the darkest parts of herself. But then going through that really changed something in her. So what was it like um coming out of this experience? Uh yeah. So if if the experience itself is like going down to the depths of your shadow self. Coming out on the other side is like shooting to the top of your best self. That's how I felt. I came out of it. Like, okay, I'm here. I'm not in danger. I'm not that little girl anymore. I'm not that battered wife. I can I can feel the pain and and process it and let it move through me and I can be okay. I can come out on the other side okay and and better off. Wow . And yeah, I also asked Holly, so what happened to your withdrawal symptoms and cravings after the ibogaine? Gone . No interest . I had no memory of what it felt like to be high. There was no, it's like I had a memory of doing it and struggling with it, of course. I remembered everything, but I had no I guess you could like the analogy would be like muscle memory for it. It did not feel natural to want to go pick it up. I had an aversion. Your face almost looked like you were disgust- you're disgusted, even thinking about it. Disgusted. That's how I felt. Like, ugh, that's not for me. That's an incredible story, right? I mean , so we don't know what ibergain is doing in the brain, but do we have any sense of why it might be having this effect on people? Well, we actually do know more about how it might be helping people. Like we we know more about that than how it just makes us trip. Oh, okay. Um so basically it it could be encouraging neuroplasticity and scientists think that maybe because the trip is so long, it could be opening up this like big window where the brain can remake itself. And we have animal studies backing that up. So researchers have found that injecting ibigaine into rats can lead to the release of growth factors, proteins that like encourage neurons to make new connections. And they found that that was happening in parts of the brain that are rewired during addiction, like the reward centers of the brain. Oh, cool. And we don't have a lot of research on humans yet, but I did find a study on this in veterans with traumatic brain injuries. So scientists gave them ibogaine and looked at what sorts of brain changes happen . And they found that after the vets got ibogaine, parts of their brains were thicker . So, like, just like the rat studies, they think it might be like enhancing neuroplasticity. Wow, and so there's something about addiction where your brain is wiring in this way that's really not good for you, that's creating this need for the drug more and more. And by shaking it up, by encouraging new pathways to form, you're really loosening up those neural connections. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, we've been talking a lot about addiction, but there is um also promising research on PCSD and anxiet y too, so showing that it might help there for for veterans. Which you could also imagine if with ruminating thoughts and around PTSD and Yeah, and and like re-uh visiting traumatic memories, you know, maybe it's opening up this like period for like a rewiring around those memories. Yes. But you know, a lot of what we have right now, all these studies are looking at the short -term benefits, like right after people take this big dose of Ibigain. Yeah, so what happens over time? Does your brain go back to what it was before? Or is this rewiring permanent? Well, so that's that's the big question, right? So there actually were a bunch of studies like Allen's the finding these like amazing short-term uh like results. Yeah. And that's kind of why Alan actually was doing his study was he wanted to see how long that lasted. And you know, the study that he was doing was actually like sometimes years after people had their trips. So he he asked them, okay, when you first took it, how did you feel? And that's where we got that 80% figure from. Okay. But then he was also asking, how do you feel now? You know, one or two years later, um, are you are you still off op ioids? And so I asked him what he found. How well did it work to like help people to stay off opioids? Well, you know, our the main finding was that about 30% of people were still completely abstinent from opioids, um, up to 30% of the 88. Yeah, 30% of the whole group said that they never had opioids again. Mm-hmm . Was it a little bit of a letdown? I you know, I don't think it was a letdown necessarily, but I think what it did for me is it really further solidified um the point that you know this is not going to be a magic bullet for people. So Alan wasn't actually that surprised at this figure since you know after people go to these clinics, they still have to go home to their normal environments. And so in light of that, he was like, it's actually pretty impressive that it worked for 30 % of people. Yeah. And Alan said that even with that 70% of people who had gone back to using opioids, a bunch of them were using less than they had used before the I began. It's kind of amazing, right? It's kind of amazing that that was possible. And what about Retz and Holly? How did how are they doing now? Yeah, so I asked them how things went for them longer term and they both said that the cravings did eventually come back. Hmm. Like I don't want to say that I felt the eyebogain wear off , but physiologically I almost did to the point to where like my body kne w and um it just it required me to really take action and s you know, start talking to my therapist more um and start putting in the work because like they they say ibogaine will open the door for you but you still have to walk through it. So now it's been about a year and Retz has managed to stay off opioids since he first went to that clinic. Amazing. And with Holly, I asked her how long the Ibogaine worked. Months and then it started to and I relapsed and and that was the first little wake-up call like, yeah, you knew this. You knew it wasn't gonna last. It's not a magic bullet. That really taught me that okay, I need to be prepared to maintain my recovery. So actually both Fretz and Holly still as part of their recovery do Ibogaine regularly. Um they both take smaller doses, what Holly calls tune-ups. She does them maybe once a year. It it is working. I'm I'm sick of doing Ibegain. Um Yeah, you wish you didn't have to do the tune-ups. I hate it. Like I I don't hate I don't that's true. I don't hate Ibogain. I'm I'm so grateful. I am so grateful. No, but what is it about needing to do it every once in a while that is like because it makes me physically sick. I throw up every time. Uh-huh. So now my husband has to put the powder in the capsules because just even looking at it makes me even thought about a pill, a capsule, I would get nauseous. Oh wow. I've I've had the worst sickness on that again. So these tune-ups, this kind of microd os ing iber gain, i is there any science on whether that helps? I haven't seen any research on that, no. Mm-hmm. But you know, for Holly and Rhett's, they say it definitely helps. And, you know, it almost gives them a similar sort of therapy as that original, the bigger dose. It's it's it like gives them a shorter version of that same experience. Uh-huh. Interesting. I mean these experiences that people are having, I can under stand where the excitement around this drug is coming from . And also some promising research, right? But now that I think about it, Meryl , none of those studies you talked about had a place bo control, right? No, they didn't. It was it was just they followed So do we have any clinical trials comparing comparing it to a placebo? We actually do. Oh, yeah. So that's what I'll tell you about after the break, plus is it safe? Mm, what are the risks here? Comin' up Snoring? Gasping during sleep? Feeling fatigued? Ask your doctor about Zepbound, Terzepatite, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and ad ults with obesity. Zebbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea and obesity to improve their OSA. 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It's the perfect mix of slow burns, second chances, and chemistry you can literally feel through the screen. Consider this your next experiment in obsession. Watch only on Prime. Now on Ac orn TV. There's a killer on the loose. Brooke Shields stars in the new original Murder Mystery. You're killing me. You spin some crackpot theory, and I find the evidence. I solve mysteries for a living. I think I'm good to go. Murder has met its match. You cannot be here. This is a police investigation. I've written you. What does that mean? He was a big city cop with a small jurisdiction . Boomers are so cute and they flirt. You're killing me. All new episodes. Now on Ac orn TV . Welcome back. Today we are looking at the latest psychedelic wonder drug ibergain and Meryl you've promised to give us a clinical trial, some real hardcore research we can sink our teeth into. Mm-hmm . Yeah, so let me tell you a story actually, because there was supposed to be a clinical trial back in the 90s uh that the NIH was gonna do um on Ibiga ine, uh specifically NIDA, the part of the NIH that does drug addiction research. And, you know, it got started. They had even given ibogaine to some patients. But then the trial was stopped. Why? Well, Iboga ine can kill you. Oh gosh. Some of the people died in the study? Not in that trial, but they had heard about a death that happened in the Netherlands from Iboga ine, and that seemed to spook the people running the trial, so they they pulled the plug on it. How do you die from ibogaine? Well, I mean we know ibogaine of course goes to the brain and that's why you you trip, but it also goes to the heart, and that's where it can cause trouble. Um, so in particular, there's a little channel in the heart that lets ions go through it, potassium specifically, and when ibigaine gets into the body , even at pretty low levels, it latches onto this channel like a magnet, which is really bad because this channel is really important for making your heart pump blood properly. Mm-hmm. So you get basically a heart attack? Sort of. It's um technically in arrhythmia. Uh-huh. Paul Glue, a professor at the University of Otago in New Zealand, is the one who explained this to me. What this could all lead to when things really go south. You're A getting much less blood sent around the body, and there's a risk that your heart will just stop. Then um unless you've got somebody sitting right next to you with a some epinephrine and and a set of paddles, you are officially dead. And Ibergaine can do this or does we know for sure if you get high enough doses of ibogaine, you have a very high chance of of dying this way? Aaron Powell We don't know how likely it is that you'll die from taking ibogaine. Like yes, we have documented deaths from people taking ibogaine. Um because of this this thing that happens with the heart. Um researchers have been kind of collecting case studies here and there to try to figure out how often it's it's happening, so you can kind of add up all these documented deaths Mm-hmm. They're probably about somewhere between 30 and 40 deaths. That's not per year. That's when you search the literature for case studies of anyone dying from iber gain over decades. Yeah, since we've been researching this. Yeah, yeah. And this is in the West or this includes are people dying in West Africa as well? It's both. So there have been a couple documented deaths from people taking it in West Africa. And this is generally a known possibility among people who practice buiti and take iboga during rituals, though it is rare. Um and so Paul wanted to know like, can can we get around this? Can we get the benefits of Ibogaine without this risk? Like, is there a dose we can give that's safe? Right. So he did a study. He's the one who did this, you know, placebo-controlled randomized clinical trial. Okay. So what did he do? So he teamed up with a pharma company that was interested in making this drug. They actually used a slightly different version of the chemical. Uh I began itself. You know, no drug company is interested in making that into a drug because it can't be patented since a researcher did that like years ago already, sort of um like a pharmacock block. So Paul's team just tweaked it slightly and made something else called nor ibegaine, which is what your body turns Ibegaine into as it breaks down the chem ical. Mm-hmm. But it but in general, um, noribogaine should do exactly what ibogaine does. Okay, so they got their noribogaine, they recruited 27 people um who were addicted to opioids and they were on methadone, which they weaned off before they started the trial, and they brought them into a hospital. So imagine a big room with a bunch of beds. We we had a lot of staff on board so it was it was a very busy ward and then gave them either Nora Begain or um place bo and we waited to see how quickly they went into opiate withdrawal. And it was really easy for them to do this because there are these telltale signs that someone's gone into withdrawal. Mm-hmm. Their pupils start to dilate, they get the sniffles, they get goose pimples all over their arms, their blood pressure goes up, their heart rate goes up, and there are these great scales where you can show how bad the withdrawal is by by just sort of totting up all these symptoms and getting a score on them Okay, so what we've got here, they got a bunch of people who were dependent on opioids , brought them into the hospital, gave half this I can't believe it's not ibergain. The place bo, you mean? No, the nor ibergain or whatever. You know, I can't believe it's not ibergain. Yes, yes. Right. And the other half got a placebo, and now Paul is waiting for pupils to dilate, goose pimples to show up, signs of withdrawal. Basically, except they also try um a bunch of different doses because they're trying to look for okay, like as they're also monitoring their hearts, how high up can we go before we start to see like bad things start to happen to the heart. So now he can check, okay, at the highest dose they could give was safe, what happened to the withdrawal symptoms. Got it. And so he tried these different doses and he could see this heart problem getting worse and worse the higher and higher the dose they gave. Right. And so he they had to stop at a pretty low dose. And he checked to see did it help? Did people's withdrawal symptoms like get any better compared to the place bo? And there was no difference between place bo and uh and and noribergane. Oh, so based on this study , even at fairly low doses doses that we don't think based on the limited information we have would help with your opioid addiction, you still get evidence of heart problems . Yeah. The beginnings of what could become heart failure. And Paul knew based on like what other drugs have been approved that with those effects that they were seeing, there's no way a drug that was having those effects on the heart, whatever, fly. Is is a non starter. FDA simply wouldn't approve it. Yeah. It is kind of a bummer, huh? Oh it's it it is what it is. Well, FDA wouldn't have approved it several years ago. We live in a different world today, Merrill. Yeah. We'll see . And I did find one other small um trial, placebo controlled trial, looking at Ibogaine. And when I first saw that one, I was like, oh, this is great because they found that it was really working for people. In that case, um, it was on people who are addicted to cocaine and they had less cravings. But then I chatted with Paul about the dose that they were giving. It says that they received a dose of 1, 800 milligrams. So that's like 10 times more than what you were giving. Yeah. Okay. So that's you would you say that was actually pretty dangerous? Oh, it's just it's reckless. It's just crazy. It's it's a really high dose. Um and uh I'm I'm pleased that no one died in that experiment, but um let's say that's not one of science's high points. By the way, I did reach out to those researchers, D But the fact that people didn't die, I mean, we still don't know why it is that some people can tolerate high doses like Retz and Holly and other people who are going to these Tijuana clinics. Everyone who's in Alan's study obviously survived to fill out the surve y. Um we don't know why those people are fine and yet you've got people who died. Yeah, in in about half of those deaths um it looked like there was some other issue that had like a comorbidity um that might explain like that predispose people to like cardiac um risks but in the other half that they you know they didn't So we're still not sure why it's sometimes killing people. And you know, I think scientists might find a way to get that benefit for addiction without the cardiac risks. Like I talked to a different scientist who's doing clinical trials right now to find out if maybe we can like space out the dosing to find a sweet spot. And Paul's also hopeful that something like that can work, but we're not there yet. And on top of all that, there's there's another issue that came up while I was doing this research. I found that in some of those observational studies that work with Ibegain clinics, like the one Alan worked with, they're they're actually giving people another psychedelic along with the ibogaine. Oh two for one. What are they giving them? So yeah a couple days after their ibogaine trips they,'ll often get DMT . Oh, did is that what happened with Holly and Rhett's? Well, Holly didn't go to one of these clinics and didn't have a DMT. But yeah, Rhett's got DMT also a couple days later. And you know, it seems like maybe they do this because DMT might give you like a softer landing after that, you know, dark intense Ibegaine trip. The old hair of the dog It's m more likely to bring about an experience of of euphoria and mystical experience and kind of almost like a positive transcendent experience. It's almost like you can take someone now they've been broken down by I begin and give them this other thing that'll kind of lift them back up and kind of propel them forward. And yeah, Rhett's said that, you know, he felt really good after getting the DMT. Yeah. But it does make the science messier, you know, trying to figure out like what drug is actually helping. We've tried to disentangle a little bit, but it's been incredibly difficult because usually these treatments that they give them are within a couple days of each other. And so it's almost impossible to know, you know, which one contributed to the overall effect. So if you are struggling with addiction or PTSD or someone you love is, based on all of this research, would you recommend they give Ibegain a go? Well, yeah, that's what I wanted to know. Like I asked Um Paul about this and he said that for for people who still want to try this, you should at least go to like a clin ic that's monitoring your heart when you're on Ibogaine with someone who knows how to use that equipment, like a cardiologist. That's actually what Rett's did. Holly wasn't at a clinic though, like I said. Yeah. Um, she did she did get her heart like checked first, but I asked her how she felt about this risk. Had you heard that there had been some deaths from taking ibogaine before taking it yourself? Yes. And so yeah, why did you decide to I was dying. I felt like a dead walking person. I mean, a walking dead person. I I was not living, let's put it that way. Mm-hmm . So brings up this point of like, sure, Ibegaine might kill you, but so can opioids. Something like fifty-five thousand people die from opioid overdoses every year in the US alone. So it feels like the calculation is gonna be different depending on who you are. Yeah. And if you have any known heart risks. Mm-hmm. But one thing that does feel sketchy to me is that some of these Ibegaine clinics aren't just marketing themselves to people who are suffering from a serious condition like substance abuse or PTSD. I saw a comment online from one of them saying, quote, many healthy people choose to do it for cognitive enhancement, neurogenesis, more clarity, peace, unquote. Of course. And that clinic charges between ten to twenty thousand dollars for that piece. Whoa. Who's that's and then they'll What ? Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's a drug, right? People want to take people to people take drugs all the time for peace and uh clar ity. Yeah. Um so Meryl, you're ducking the question, you're recommending it to a friend or no? Also all right, well bottom line, I also asked Alan the same question. Here's what he said. I'm talking it again. Yeah, here's another scientist. so what would you say to someone who is thinking about trying Ibogaine for for addiction? Well, you know, not surprisingly, you know, because of the research that I do, people actually do email me with this question. And and and you know, I've heard of this research. What should I do? My son is struggling, my daughter is suffering, my parent is suffering. Um, should I go to Mexico? Is that the answer? And I almost, you know, I I always tell people, um, this is not a choice I would make. It's expensive. It's risky. You know, I would much rather um encourage someone that I cared about to fly to Colorado and get a psilocybin therapy session in a in a regulated market, um, where we know where the psilocybin's coming from and we know who the providers are that are doing it. They're licensed professionals. Mm . We do have a lot more research on psilocybin and it is safer. So Meryl, here is where we are at with the research on Ibergame. Um people who are really struggling with opioid addiction and PTSD have had amazing experiences on ibergain. And it's really helped them. But it doesn't last forever. And in the meantime, while Ibergain is doing some cool stuff up in your brain, it is also potentially doing scary stuff to your heart. And at the moment, we don't know what that risk is, even though it's probably not super high. We don't know. So if you are struggling and you really wanna try a psychedelic, at the moment, give magic mushrooms a go. Yeah . All right. Thanks, Meryl. Thanks, Wendy. That's science versus. And before we get to our citations, we have a sponsored segment where we answer listener questions from you all. So here it is . Today's Ask Wendy Anything, Ask Me Anything, is brought to you by Amazon Health AI. Before this podcast continues, I need you to fill out 37 forms about your listening history. I'll wait . Just kidding. That would be ridiculous. Yeah, it feels like we do this every time we need healthcare. But the new Amazon Health AI is different, it can connect your health history to offer you personalized care so you can get help. Here to ask me some questions is Science Versus Senior Producer Rose Rimmler. So our first question today is from Lisa Capitineo from Instagram . And Lisa asks, what's the first advice you would give an aspiring science communicator? Be factu al. Get it right. Because it's really easy online . You're making some videos , making some content, you see what does well, and sometimes it's getting a little goosey-goosey with the truth. Do not do it. You all you have is your reputation, and the whole point you're getting into this industry of sites communication is to bring good factual information out there. So don't forget your North Star. Nice. I like it. Okay. Alya Savanova on Instagram wants to know if you have any big regrets in life. My biggest regret in life is that I only learned how to pee properly in my mid-20s. Is that a thing that I should know? How do you pee properly? I didn't know you're not supposed to push it out. But you know how you know how you can make the you can make yourself pee f aster. If you're really impatient. Because there was always this story of girls take so long to pee. And I would say, absolutely not, I'll beat you to all my male friends. And I would I would I would beat him. I would beat him. Bear down. I would bear down. And then in my mid-20s, someone said, Do you know peeing is a passive process? And you could really mess up your muscles down there if you push down. Definitely not supposed to do that. But I really wished I didn't spend, you know, more than a decade pushing. I'm fine guys. I'm fine . I do my kegels now. I don't just just let let the pee flow. Just take a moment and relax . You've got nothing to prove. That's my biggest regret in life. Could be worse. It could be it could be worse