Understanding Pathological Narcissism and NPD

I'm Wendy Zuckman and Ye'll listing to Science verses I know that last week I said we were taking a quick break to work on some new episodes. That is true. We are, We are working on new episodes. Thank you so much for all of your suggestions as well. to Julia who wants an episode on hippos and wrote to us saying, quote The world is heavy and so are hippos I want to say, I hear you The reason that I am here now is because we noticed that recently we've had a bunch of new listeners to the show, which is really awesome. Thank you so much. Welcome to the Sides Vvers' partarty. And so we thought, while you're here, let's pop one of our favorite episodes down the feed. It's from a few years ago and it's about the science of narcissism. It was a delight to listen back to, so interesting. I learnt so much again. So I hope you like it Enjoy This is the show that pits facts against inflated egos Today, we are talking about narcissism So of course, I've invited Senior producer at Rose Rima Tell me all about it. Hey, well becausecause you did the research Fair enough ' been doing the research And you know, what I quickly realized diving into all this is that On the internet, there's all these caricatures of what a narcissist is But the reality is a lot more complicated actually a lot more interesting. So to start, I want you to meet someone. This person is an actual narcissist. Oh He's a social media influencer That the touche that jumob sounds very appropriate Could you start by introducing yourself to our audience? Hey everybody, My name is Lee Hemmock. I am a clinically diagnosed, narcissist. One of my monikers has become like the self aware narcissist And Lee wasn't always self aware about this, but Something happened about eight years ago changed his whole world. M So Lee is a dad. And on this particular day, he was home alone with his six month old son The baby was crying And Lee was feeling really annoyed that the baby was fussing while he was trying to get some of his own work done. And he found himself raising his voice at the baby And then his wife walked in, heard this and she's like, what the hell? You're yelling at an infant And they got in a huge fight about it. Hm So I told her to get the hell out Of course, she's like,kay, I'm leaving. And on the way out the door. She said, you know what? It's so damn hard to live with a narcissist. She said that kind of like toss over her shoulder as she walked out the door Yeah, it's a super inso. so damn hardri live with a narcissist slamm the do I was like wait what? She's like, why would she say that? R? Why does she call me that? So I'd sit down on a bed And I'm, you know, don't don't angry Google. I was angry Googling.. So I typed in narcissist in Google and they said, did you mean narcissistic personality disorder That is the medical term for someone who is diagnosed as a narcissist. I didn't mean that, but you know, let's I seemingly I got time in my hands now. so let's go down the raadoad. So I clicked on it And Literally It was like I started reading the signs and the symptoms and things like that. and just I was like, oh damn It was really a huge moment for him because He's reading all these descriptions of what makes a narcissist, at least according to Dr. Google, R. And he's nodding along. So it's like, you think you're special, but he definitely does think that. He's always believed he was destined for greatness Another one is you are preoccupied with yourself. Yep. Keeps reading, lack of empathy That one definitely felt right Was there an example that flashed in your mind? You're like, oh, that was the time when I was being unappathetic I don't know if you ever seen movie Rabbitory. So there's a scene in Rabitouory at the end when like the food critic eats the ratitory and it took him back to his childhood. Yeah. That's what happened to me when she said that like when I started looking up narcissism and a lack of empathy, it took me back to my childhood when I was like in first or second grade He was on the playground in school. He was watching this kid named Tony climbing on a jungle gym. And he saw that Tony was gonna try to hang upside down by his legs And he had a bad feeling about this. He didn't think Tony was strong enough to go upside down. So he told Tony to stop, But Tony did it anyway then't listen, Bam, he falls, snaps his arm. And verybody's like I my good, Tony hurt I'm screaming. I' angryony I don't care to do these sir. You know, I'm angry and say, man, I'm crying angry. What were you thinking as a kid when he broke his arm that he he had inconviinenced me Because now we all had to go inside and now this is the time we get to go outside and play. Now we have to go inside because you made a decision not to listen to me. Little Kidley was so angry and upset in this moment that he actually remembers the teacher looking at him and saying, What's wrong with you And at the time, of course, he didn't know. But as an adult Andn this day in his bedroom after the fight with his wife, he's like Wait, now I know. and I was like, Damn, wow This is it. I remember texting to my wife. I was like, you right. I am a narcissist. Yeah. Yeah night, Yeah, that night. I was like, you're right I looked it up. I am a narcissist. Im like, you are a hundred percent on it And now today as an influencer, Lee talks a lot about narcissists like him and how to live with them, deal with them part of this huge trend where people canannot stop talking about narcissists There are even people saying that we're in a narcissism epidemic And I'm hearing about narcissists just like coming out of the woodwork You know, our bosses, our parents, celebrities Let's turn to Nick Cannon, who says he needs help after being diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. There is a self importance in me. I believe I am not ordinary one in six people are narcissistic. The rates of narcissism are rising. In Trump, you literally have the most narcissistic person I think anyone can name in our lifetime. He is a consumate narcissist. How do you deal with these people. How do you live with these people? It's even become like Something that comedians joke about. I don't know what narcissist means, but if it's about me, it's gotta be good. Yeah, we're in an epidemic of narcissism. We should be raising awareness. Should be like wear a little mirror for narcissist I mean today. Today is Narcissist Day for us, right? Yeah, so we'll put on our little mirrors Because today on the show we're going to find out What's really going on here Is the world truly overrun with narcissists? Are they hosting science podcasts? Boved science podcasts. How do you know if? your one or your boss or partner's one And if you're stuck with a narcissist in your life, like what do you do about it? Sid versus narcissist is cored up just after the break Adobe Firefly is the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video editing for today's creative process. built for creators of every kind Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast Because the asks aren't getting smaller The budgets aren't getting bigger, and the timelines, o yeah, still tight With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Unlock a better way to make with Adobe Firefly This episode is brought to you by Quaker Oats The pace of the morning, the rhythm of the commute, the energy for whatever the day throws your way. However your day unfolds, it all starts in the morning. So start with Quaker Oats. one hundred percent whole grain oats with a good source of fiber to support digestive health and energy to keep you going. Stay in sync throughout the day Quaker, the official sponsor of the FIFA World Cup twenty six, brringing you fuel to start whatever's next. Visit Quakeroats dot com slash FIFA to learn more Welcome back today on the show, Narcissism It is blowing up right now. We're going dive into the science of it. and we're here with your producer Rose Rbler All right, Rose, question number one. Is the world oververrun with narcissists So people tend to throw around the word narcissism pretty willy nilly. But first you have to know that there is some different types here. So there's pathological narcissism That's a trait where people constantly put themselves and their own needs above other people and their needs and it's often associated with this lack of empathy. If that describes you You could get diagnosed potentially with narcissistic personality disorder. And Lee actually did get that diagnosis. Oh wow, that from that argument, that his wife just sort of threw out your narcissist, but she was absolutely right. Yeah And we are going to get more into the details of that later in the episode But there's also what's considered Basically normal narcissism, where you know, you're like a little focused on yourself, you're confident maybe to the point of being arrogant. Maybe sometimes you think you're better than other people.. And so to science, there is this distinction. personersonality disorder narcissism, and then just regular old garden variety narcissism Yeah, and there's a spectrum when it comes to the garden variety narcissism That's usually what scientists or the media are talking about when they talk about a narcissism epidemic This question of whether lots of us are moving farther and farther up this narcissism spectrum. Okay So A we So to answer that, we got to go back to where this all started We are going back to the late nineties, early two thousands Okay, so this is the historical h smoked. Just let me get my hististory face on. That is W. Keith Campbell. He's a professor of psychology at the University of Georgia. But back then, he was a postdoc at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, along with another social scientist named Genan Twangy We were in a basement office, they shoved three of us in there. We had a little bit of light that came through the Cleveland. window we had cut into the basement and we'd talk in our swivel chairs. And a lot of what they were talking about was how the culture seemed to be changing We were in a period culturally in about two thousand that was just the most over the top self promotional of culture you could imagine with the reality television show culture and other things along those lines So it was just a very it's kind of a very in your face cultural moment Yeah. I mean, I remember it well, but I don't think we've moved away from cultural moment of self promotion. I know. but I think right around then a lot of people see that as an inflection point for Certain things like reality TV. So Survivor debuted in two thousand. Right around there is when American Idol started, America's next stop model. It's like f, f, f, being on TV, being special So and Jean were like, somethinghing's changing here and it seems like people are changing in some fundamental way. Interesting. So they really wanted to find this out, and they really wanted to get some data behind this idea. They were becoming more narcissistic Luckly there is this test that measures some narcissistic traits. It's called the narcissistic personersonality inventory And what it's meant to do is to measure these grandiose narcissistic traits, basically how great you think you are Can we take it? Can I take it? Yeah, goosh. when I just said, can I take it? I was like, is that a sign that I'm a narcissist? Don't you want me to take it too How special I am on the narcissism scale? Before we take it, do you have any Do you have any guesses? who will have be higher on the narcissism scale? Oh, I am totally gonna to be more of a narcissist than you are. There's no doubt in my mind. You never know, you never know. So the instructions are to read each pair of statements below and place an X by the one that comes closest to describing your feelings and beliefs about yourself. You may feel that neither statement describes you well, but pick the one that comes closest. It's like a buzzade quiz where just a photo of Senator Palpatine is going to show up on the screen It's not the nerd personersality index Lack of empathyose Oh no Okay, let me put the link in the chat. Okay, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in Okay. All right, I'll read the first one. I have a natural talent for influencing people I am not good at influencing people Hm, I'm gonna say not good. I'm gonna say I have a natural talent Mhm. The thought of ruling the world frightens the hell out of me. versus if I ruled the world, it would be a better place I think about this a lot. It's number two. If I raded the world, it would be a b Yeah. Yeah. It's not a hard bar right now, is it? I mean I am no better or no worse than most people, or I think I am a special person. I really like to be the center of attention. It makes me uncomfortable to be the center of attention. I just w to be reasonably happy or I want to amount to something in the eyes of the world Everybody likes to hear my stories sometometimes I tell good stories. Yeah, I feel confident in this one. The other day I told someone the story. I was like, the other day I ate a bunch of pineapple. It was really sweet. and then I had a bagel. and then the bagel was really sour in comparison to the pineapple. It was like, great story So that is a sometimes good storyteller. I actually big everybody likes to hear my stories. Oh People sometimes believe what I tell them or I can make anybody believe anything I want them to. I wish, I wish, right? Oh my go. wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone believed everything we said on science verses? Give her a point on the narcissism scale for that Okay. Okay, so before you reveal how narcissistic we are. Tell me what is the average of this test. So when they have used this test in sort of a general sample Yeah, just so you know is in college students. That's kind of how it's been normed. Okay. Average score is about fifteen. fififteen. Yeah. Do you want to hear about standard deviations? I do want to hear about standard deviations. Yeah. That's about seven points on either side. So, you know, eight Yes to twenty two. So that's like you're in like the middle chunk of the population. Okay Got it. Less than eight, you're really on a tail end of likere you're kind of a shrinking violot. Okay. moreore than twenty two G getting up there in your narcissistic traits. All right, how did we do it? You got seventeen. And I got ten Okay, so we're in They're B bothoth normal. You're a little higher upal. Okay, okay. Also, I just have to tell you this one day, I found this paper published by doctor Drew from Loveveline. Do you know him No, No, I didn't. It was this radio show where they answered sex questions It was like big in the two thousands. and they always had celebrity guests come on. And it turns out this whole time doctor Drew was giving the NPI to celebrities that came onto the show. and he published a paper to see like are celebrities more narcissistic than other people Which kind of celebrity is the most narcissistic? Oh. And just for fun, I'll tell you that they found the celebrity that had the highest score was radio hosts Reality TV stars. Reality Of course. reality TV stars. ye. Reality TV stars got on average nineteen point five, whichich is so funny because that is like part of what kicked us all off for Keith and Jean. Okay, so with all that in mind nineteen is a reality TV star from the two thousands. fifteen is Exactly normal. So I'm exactly in between the average person and a reality star. You know what? Science podcast host, perfect. That feels exactly where I belong. Yeah, yeah, checks out. I mean, that seems like just narcissistic enough. But to take this all back to Keith and Jean sitting in their basement. Oh, yeah, that's That's why we did this right. I have completely forgotten about Kith the Jade, by the way Yeah. That's the whole point. That's why we took this test. Y So These scientists think that people are getting more narcissistic, right? And so what they do is they find all these studies where people have taken this test. So they were able to find data on more than sixteen thousand college students taking this personality test between nineteen seventy nine and two thousand six So then they crunch the numbers And they found that on average, Narcissism seem to be going up Yeah, we'd found an increase in narcissism and I looked at the data about twenty five different times to make sure and that's what we found those tra those traits. You see more and more Wendy's less and less roses. Yeah, I guess you could say that. And not only that, Keith and Jean also looked at all the stuff that was going on in the culture. So besides the reality TV stuff, stuff that they thought was evidence of people getting more narcissistic. So they pointed out that more people are getting cosmetic surgery, Parents have begun giving their children more unique names. And so they concluded, we are in a narcissism epidemic Genean Twangy published a book called Generation Me. and all of this just blew up. It became huge. There was a ton of media attention on this. This particular group of young people heard a lot of things growing up like believe in yourself. Everybody thinks they're going to be a reality star by posting their selfie online, their video online. a generation more narcissistic, materialistic naively entitled Do you remember this? Yes. I remember I remember all of this. Yeah. and it felt I have to say, it felt very old man yelling at clouds to recall a meme that was probably around back then. There was as someone who was a young science journalist hustling her way to success, Hustling her way up the narcissism spectrum Exactly. But a lot of the talk did feel likeike kids these days. Yeah, I was just seeing a pattern of criticizing the younger generation as opposed to necessarily a pattern around a narcissism epidemic. Well, okay, what you just said is Exactly what this other academic I spoke to felt like at the time too. Her name is Kolly Treznevski. She's another psychologist. She's currently a professor at the University of California, Davis. So when she first saw this paper back when it came out It made it really uneasy for a lot of the reasons you just said this idea of You know, everybody is increasing in narcissism and like this generation is just going to end up in an awful place because they can't take criticism and they're all just full of themselves out for themselves and don't care about anyone else. Those are quite strong statements to be making. That leads to these stereotypes like, oh yeah, there they are. there's that lazy youth again. Coie, I mean, at this time She because she was you know, a little spt a little skeptical, but you know also just like if this is true, we need good we need a lot of data behind it because we are so prone to this confirmation bias where we think the younger generation sucks. So she found this other data set. It's called monitoring the future And they survey high school seniors every year. They've been doing it since the mid seventies It's not the NPI, but they do ask questions about things like How do you see yourself, comparered to others? How satisfied are you with yourself? How competent are you? So questions that could be related to an inflated ego So she and her co author looked at students' answers to those questions between nineteen seventy six and two thousand six. And what did they see? They saw no narcissism epidemic Yeah, so we found that most things didn't change Oh Yeah, the high school seniors in nineteen seventy six. We're just as likely to say like, I'm not that special or I'm kind of special as the high school seniors in two thousand six So she didn't find any evidence in this data of kids really changing. Interesting. And so basically ever since there's been back and forth in the literature about what was actually going on over this time period. Yeah Fast forwarding, what's really interesting is about what's happening today. Scientists have kept doing these analyses since this. Yeah. you know, that data was up to two thousand six. It's twenty twenty four. Yeah. And so we do have newer studies where they've done something similar looking at newer crops of college kids. R actuallyctually what they're seeing now is that narcissism has been going down. Wow. Even Keith, who was on team narcissism epidemic, remember? Yeah. He was like, yeah, it's going down. At least what the NBI can measure, that grandiose narcissism. I mean, right now, what it looks like is that Grandiose's narcissism is going down Wa Hm Hh. So what do these researchers make of that? So the debate here, I mean it's funny at this point, lots of scientists seem to agree, and it's not just Collie, it's not just Keith, but also theres's another group from the University of Vienna. they just put out this big meta analysis All these different researchers in this space agree that there is currently no evidence that narcissism is up compared to a few decades ago. If there's a controversy, it's whether there was a bump. for a while Hm, So maybe There was something about that inflection point reality TV coming online. Well, it's hard to say because not everybody agrees that there was this bump. That's still controversial. And Keith now says like, look, at this point, it's an archeological question because it's over So So we are not in a narcissism epidemic We may never have been But so far, what we've been talking about is this test that nerds use to measure, you know, kind of normal levels of narcissm. Yeah. We haven't been talking about pathological narcissism, which is what Lee has. Right. And people with this can be really self centered, hurtful, manipulative So after the break, we are going to turn back to that darker type of narcissism to talk about what's going on in their heads. And if you've got someone like this in your life How can you deal with them? O, Coming up. Tod episode is brought to you by porchiatry. When your mental health is suffering, finding the right treatment can be overwhelming. That's where psychiatry comes in. Porchiatry is an online psychiatry practice with licensed psychiatrists who can evaluate, diagnose, and provide ongoing medication management when appropriate They accept major insurers, can treat anxiety, ADHD, depression and more. And you can schedule your first visit in days, not months. Go to talkchiatry dot com slash science Vs to get matched in minutes. That's T A L k I A T R Y dot com slash scienceVs Psychiatry d. com slash science Vs. 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Then enjoy a flexible monthly payment plan that works for you. withith no sign up or late fees. Find yours then, and an easy way to pay. With PayPal. downownload the PayPal app to get started. Subject to approval. pay mononthly consonsumer loans made by Webank. available through PayPaling N ML nine one zero four fivety seven. Learn more at payPal. com slash pay monthly. Welcome back todayay on the show, Narcissists. We're wearing our little mirrors to spend a day. focusing on them which they would love, wouldn't they, Rose. So Where do we go next? Yeah. so we're moving to this pathological narcissism that goes way beyond us just kind of being our most arrogant selves And I talked about this with psychologist and narcissism specialist, Craig Malkin. Really the core of pathological narcissism is this drive to feel special. Feel special It's sort of an addictive, compulsive need to turn to that feeling of feeling special at the expense of everything else It's about being so self centered so consistently that it actually interferes with your relationships, your ability to work and can translate into some really crappy behaviors Craig calls them the triple E. exploitation which is doing whatever it takes to feel special, no matter the cost to others. Entitlement, which is acting as if the world should bend to our will because we're so special, and empathy impairments that's getting so caught up in that need to feel special that you lose sight of the needs and feelings of others that Triple E explains all of the worst behaviors in narcissistic personality disorder So to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder DSM, which is like the psychological Bible says you need to display a pattern of gndiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy All right, This is somebody who's so focused on themselves that they wreak havoc in relationships. It's perervasive And this disorder, it's not super common. It's estimated that in the US, maybe one percent of the population has NPD. One percent. So to go back to Lee, who we heard from at the start of the show, this was the guy that had this big fight with his wife after he yelled at the baby and Did you I diagnos with this? Okay He told me that this desire to feel really special and important is a major thing that has driven him for years Kind of like u The Novia. I always got the kids movie references. Like When I watched the movie cooco, I always wanted to end up on a Fnda, not just buried and gone and just forgot about You want to be remembered As somebody who changed the trajectory of your family. You want to have the portrait of yourself in a family house, right? Well, that's yeah, that's Grand Polly right there, you know They change the trajectory of the family right here. What more can I do to leave my mark on the world. What more can I do to So I'm just not a normal person. Normalcy, being average is it's like painful. It's like death It's almost like nine I want my tomb to be a statue. That's a hard mark to hit. And so it turns out that this drive to feel special doesnn't always feel good So one thing that might surprise people is that a lot of narcissists are not happy people. That is surprising It is because I guess there is this assumption that if you person in the world that lacked empathy that didn't give a shit about anyone else. you could just do whatever you wanted And that That sometes actually freeing Right Exactly, exactly. but that's not That's not what we find. No. I mean, one study found that a third of people with NPD have major depressive disorder A fifth. Generalized anxiety disorder Which is much higher than the general population. Yeah. It really is surprising. I mean, it's just not how you You're a narcissist, I don't think. Yeah, but that's the case. and it's actually something that Lee can really relate to becauseuse he's also been diagnosed with depression and anxiety alongside NPD. And a thing that Lee told me that really helped me see why you'd be so miserable as a narcissist is that his ego really can't handle any criticism. This is pretty common with this disorder, by the way being very sensitive to any criticism And so when this happens to Lee, it just eats and eats at him criticism feels like like a truly like a wound. like it just doesn't go away. It's just like Sometimes it gets healed up. It's kind of like a scar, right? It gets healed up But sometimowes it randomly just burst open Like literally stuff that I forgot about will pop into my head. That's some why they said to me in the club They about twenty one years th old And it' hurt my feelings now. I'm like Bye. It's hard. It's so hard just to kind of let stuff go And so he's always on the lookout for his ego getting dinged and like preemptively getting ready to fight Like when I first meet people, always try to find a way to take them now just in case. If its not physical violence, of course, it might be like Hm. What did it about you can I hurt your feeling with? justust case you tryt to hurt my feel How can I hurt your fes? You're looking for weaknesses in case you need to exploit them later? Yeahust likeust in case. Y, just in case, just in case. justust in case they insult me or joke on me, how can I joke on you back to hurt your phs or get the attention back on you? Because that's how my minds work. It's always like attacking in vengeance. This is a pretty miserable way to live. Yeah And hearing that, I could really see how Narcissism can manifest as anxiety because you just have these ruminating Ths of anger over and over again. And that's not all. I mean, there was a review paper that found that they often suffer from feelings of meaninglessness They're very critical of themselves And they struggle to express their emotions So is there a way to help them because this feels like It's kind of the worst of both worlds. No one is happy. The people around them aret happy. they're not happy. R Can we do anything about it? Yeah, I mean, so Lee of course had that question right after he And he had his moment of revelation because like the next thing he Googled was like Cure for narcissistic personality disorder, right And the results were disappointing done there's no medicine, there's no pels, or anything like that to take There's no cure, G to therapy I was just like, oh, well I guess I have to go to therapy. So that's the treatment we have, therapy, talk therapy therapists do things like try to help their patient be more aware of triggers that lead to narcissistic actions One paper described what you can do as a therapist is move a patient from me mode to we mode. Okay, I mean, did Lee end up Trying therapy? Yeah, he did start therapy It was several months after the big fight with his wife. And when he went to see this therapist you like Okay, so What are you doing here at thirty two years old? Okay Now just start crying becauseuse I know its I was just like literally just start crying. Yeahah Was that unusual for you? crying Yeah, it was out yeah. Did she ask you why you're crying I was like, I feel like I don't have any emotions. I just feel like I'm empty inside. And I started crying. She's like, No, you don't You're crying, so there's something there, you know? there's there's something in there. You're definitely crying, so There's something in there It's just There's something blocking it. We got to figure out a way to kind of lower down the gates. she's kindy of described it like a castle. You got to figure a way to lure down the gates because you can't walk around. It's just like sealed up all the time. And did he was he able to lower the gates Yeah. I mean, there's no magical transformation. He says he's still a narcissist. but Over the years, it has helped him learn to put some space between his thoughts and his actions My very first thought is typically the narcissistic reaction It really, really is. It's kind of like, pow it's the first start it's probably going to be self serving, super defensive and ecotyistical, whatever it is So I have to take my time to respond now. So I take a deep breath and, okay I have to ask myself, is that narcissism or is this No more It's kind of like I have dual thoughts and now, I have competing thoughts. It's kind of like it's opened a whole new door up and there's somebody else living up here and they're just like sitting in a room, like my brain is like There's a narcissist part of me and a non narcissist part of me. they're like sit in living room arrguing, you know, Oh they't know. Yeah.' no I don't I don't find very much peace Oh that's that's so interesting how Lee talks about it that therapy has allowed him to see a different way of thinking, the you, quote unquote, what he says, normal way of thinking, but he's still Narcissist, but but that I mean, just that step seems like it's been helpful to him I mean, do we have any data on O people with narcissism? like what's the chance If a narcissist goes to therapy, they will change. We really try to run this down, but it's very hard to put numbers around it because there are no trials exclusively on people with NPD., Annoying. Yeah. And you know, psychologists have said that people with NPD tend to drop out of therapy, so maybe that's one reason You know, we don't have these, but We do have some evidence that is promising and people who do stick it out. There are some case studies showing that people with NPD can improve after two and a half to five years of therapy. And a lot of therapists that I talked to told me the same thing that they have helped people with this disorder Hm. So that is how narcissists can help themselves. But on the flip side I mean, if you are living with a narcissist who's perhaps not working on themselves in the way that Lee is What can you do? Yeah, so this question of how do you deal with a narcissist in your life is something that Craig, our psychologist from earlier he specializes in. He sees a lot of people who come to therapy Oftentimes they come in trying to figure out if someone in their life is a narcissist and then what should they be doing about it And his number one tip is to not focus so much on the other person's diagnosis, but to figure out whether or not the relationship is working for you The one thing people don't that I often help them get to It's just to be in touch with the questions like am I safe in this relationship emotionally, physically? Do I like how I'm being treated regardless of where it comes from in this person if you decide I mean, I do like this person, but God, they've got some crappy traits that I'd like them not to have. Can you do anything about that or you just have to take them as they come? Right. So if you do decide the relationship is worth working on, you wanna stay or let's say it's like a relative or a boss Craig has a few strategies. R. They're based on this observation that You can actually boost empathy in people with narcissism. There's a body of research on this. H And Craig has come up with some ways to basically exploit that. So the first thing is something he calls an empathy prompt And this is basically in your conversation with this person about why you're unhappy with their behavior, you sort of set it up by priming the other person to feel empathy for you while you're giving them feedback in this really particular way that could get through to someone with narcissism. So he gave me an example Say your partner is someone who can often act very dismissive of your ideas You might want to say Something like sweetheart, you're the most important person in my life. And that's why it's so devastating. When you dismiss my ideas out of hand, I just feel like somebody I love and care about really doesn't think much of me It's just heartbreaking. Wow R. anyybody who has a capacity for empathy at all You know is that will melt them. Yeah That's that's like a gunpowder packed. statement because it gives it's so much about how much you value them Yes. In addition to, this is what I'm not getting from you. Yes, exactly.. So that's an empathy prompt. Therapy bomb. Oras it sound like you just had a revelation? Is there someone you want to try this on? Maybe Whady because? You love being the center of attention and you people always love your storory. Okay, okay. else what other the tips did Cray out? Crayon had different strategies for like how stubbornly narcissistic people are. So for someone that's like maybe not going melt from the empathy prompt. What he suggests is this thing called catching good. So here here is what he means by that? There's got to be moments where they say something thoughtful or kind, caring where they appreciate you You want to catch those He's like, say you think you have a narcissistic boss But one day they do like one nice thing. Maybe they take you out for lunch, they listen to an idea that you had You can tell them. Yeah, I so appreciate that you invited me to lunch I just feel so much more moiv to get to the finish line on tasks. So I really want to thank you for that. Oh, that's great. That's great. You know what really stands out here is the advice that you don't. Tell your boss, that makes me feel great. Instead How them you're now more motivated your work done. because the idea is that your narcissistic boss cares about your work They don't care about your feelings. Yes. He ties it to like, here's the outcome that will benefit you. Yes. So if that doesn't work, and the empathy prompts don't work, You know, this person's still in your life. There is one last strategy that's I think we're talking about And especially because this is something that the internet loves talking about. And this is called Greay rocking, Gay rocking. So this is the idea that like if you're in a fight with a narcissist, You basically become so still and so boring and quiet that you are acting like a gray rock. Oh. It doesn't give them anything to fight with. Grey Rock is simply When you respond or interact, youre you're not emotionally engaged. You're flat You're not really offering anything We don't really have science here, but Craig says, this is a tactic that people have found useful The key is that you give the other person as little ammunition as possible. The mistake people make is explaining themselves or defending. and now now you really get things going. because the more narcissistic someone does, the more they're going to have to say in response to that So the last thing you want to do is invite more answers or more reactions. Yeah, these are sort of helpful suggestions, but If I was employing these in a relationship I could get out of It would really make me question whether that was the best option. Yeah, Craig was definitely like that is something worth considering And he also really wanted to relay to people that if you feel unsafe in your relationship, your priority should not be on using these techniques to improve communication. It should be on making sure you're safe. Yeah Absolutely So I guess The takeaways of this episode are that Narcissists are among us There may not be as many of them out there as the internet would have you believe, but they are among us. Yeah. and There are some ways that you can try to deal with them mayaybe not so science backed, but hopefully these tips are helpful. Um And if you Are the narcissist or think that you are going to therapy is a good idea. Rose, how are you walking around the world differently after researching this episode? Well, it's just been a good reminder that when we start to focus on ourselves too much It can be harmful and they can actually like makeake you less happy And it makes me really want to catch to those moments where I'm doing that, where I'm like really spinning around about myself, my own legacy or what people think of me, noting when that's actually to a point where it's not helpful. it's making me less happy than I would be otherwise. I think that's A takeaway that even someone who's scored low on the narcissism spectrum, not to brag can takeaway. It like especially low, I would say, extraordinarily low, I would say. Even me can benefit from thinking about narcissism. Thanks, Ris Thanks Wendy. This episode was produced by Rose Rrimler, with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, along with Michelle Dang, Meryl Horne, and A Keddy Foster Keys. We're edited by Bllythe Tererell, Mix and Sound Design by Sam Ber. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Music written by Peter Leonard Ema Munga, So Wiley, Boomi Hidaka, and Bobby Lorde. Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including doctor Igar Weinberg, doctor April Ilkman, doctor Jennifer Gurlach, doctor Betsy Edishil, Professor Brad Bushman, Professor Brent Donalan, Professor Chris Barry, doctor Glenn Ger, and Winky Mahr. Special thanks to Rachel Humphries for editing help. And a big thanks to everyone who helped us with this season, including Jack Weinstein, Hunter, Chris Suder