Safety and Final Verdict

I'm Wendy Zuin, and this is Science Vversus A this episode, we're taking a quick break just to work on some future episodes. So if you have ideas, let us know in the comments things you'd like us to versus. And we wanted to let you know that we now have a YouTube channel. Yo. It's Science VS podcast. There's a link in the show notes. You can also catch us on Instagram, TikTok But now s time for the episode. Let's jump in I'm on an a leegal mission. today. leegal gray area would be more accurate, but for a cold open like this We're gonna to say illegal. No. We're gonna say Gay area. There's no way that would get through fact check. The point is I'm doing something naughty A couple of weeks ago, I went on a secret mission. Okay. Here I go. I'm going into the store. There's plants out the front That's inside. orrganic bananas to my left. I'm here to buy something that some say is dangerous. And couldven kill me that chocolate milk drops. I bet there's cararab somewhere around here God only knows Oh my gosh, that's an empty. It's a completely empty. Frid, There's one left. O Found it. It's a wet substance In a plastic bottle. This one l, this one lp Row milk But should I drink it? Thank you. Licard? Yes, please. Sure A lot of people online are saying yes, that this milk that I've got that hasn't been pasteurized and is straight from the teat has heaps of benefits. They say, just look at the science. Raw milk, raw diry in your diet is definitely going to improve your health. Raw milk protects kids from asthma, eczema, and allergies It is packed full of gut healthy bacteria. You heal your microbiome. God intended milk to be raw. If he didn't, he would have put a pasteurization chamber on the odder of a cow Raw milk fandom has even hit the uter echelons of society. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is a huge raw milk fan. and it's not just the RFK juniors of the world. It's pretty common to drink raw milk in some countries. You can even find it in some vending machines around Europe There is a flip side to this story, the raw milk naysayers who reckon that raw milk is dangerous It's actually illegal to sell raw milk for humans to drink in Australia and in some states in the US as well I had to find it in the pet food section of the store So why are people worried here? Some people keep trying to act like drinking raw milk is unlocking some secret level of health. Well, I want to say congratulations. It unlocked diarrhea, fever, stomach cramps, nausea, and vomiting. The only reason to drink raw milk is if you ever wondered, hey, I wonder what it's like to die from having too much diarrhea So who's right here Could drinking raw milk be the thing you need to help your microbiome, your allergies, your asthma B Are you gonna die from having too much diarrhea Today on the show, we're gonna squeeze the teat of science until we've filled our bucket with facts around raw milk No Because you know, there's a lot of God intended milk to be raw And then there's science Science Vestors Rw milk is coming up just after the break Adobe Firefly is the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video editing for today's creative process Built for creators of every kind, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast Because the asks aren't getting smaller budgets aren't getting bigger, and the timelinees, oh yeah, still tight With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Unlock a better way to make with Adobe Firefly. Acorn TV. There's a killer on the loose. Brooke Shields leads an all star cast in the hit original mystery series, You're killing mee. I solved mysteries for a living. I think I'm good to go. H been one of your books, Not in real life every killer at the say. You're someone who can doouge for your whereabouts at the time he gets to. What are you the alibi police? That's literally. Exactly I am You're killing me. All episodes now streaming on acorn TV Welcome back. Today we are guzzling down the science of raw milk and I'm here with our editor, Blythe Tarerell Hello Bes Hello Wendy. So I've got it in my hot little hands. O. I'm so nervous. it's I should say so it says Milk only. And what's funny about the health food store that I bought it at is So you go to the milk section with the the regular pastor as milk. and then they have a sign that says, if you want raw milk, go to the pet food section There is no other pet food sold in the quote unquote pet food section. Across the store, there's just a fridge with raw milk And that's it. Wow, that is Cheeky. Yeah. Okaykay, so let's open Let's open this raw milk. Once it's open, it's open, Wendy, then it really becomes like Chekov's raw milk. Yeah, okay, here we go. There it is. So you're just gonna put it there next to you, right? You're not having it now. Nope The question is Blad, am I gonna drink this? It sounds like maybe you need some science before you can make that call. I believe so So tell me Bad, let's start here What is different about this raw milk compared to regular milk that you would buy at the store Okay, so the key difference is that it has not been pasteurized. Right. And I can tell you a little bit about pasteurization. Thank you So what we do when we pasteurize milk is basically we heat it up Usually to one hundred and sixty one degrees Fahrenheit seventy two degrees Celsius. Thank you for you and those like you. For like fifteen seconds or less and When we started doing this at scale is about a hundred years ago. Okay. And that Wendy was partly because Milk was making people sick Actually, a lot of the time with things like tuberculosis Like the cows would get tuberculosis Oh. And like it would come out in their milk and people would drink the milk and get TV. Wow. Oh, I didn't realize TV. Okay. so they So they start pasteurizing the milk It works. It kills the b. Itills the TV? Yes. It becomes the thing we do in the US, right? And a lot of other places. And so I guess Now the movement is saying we're killing too much in the millk. Right. Perhaps it's overkill. Okill. Like a big argument is that we're getting rid of microbes that actually like would make our guts stronger If they hung around. Right. We're getting rid of the bad microbes and the good. And that's where I want to start with this argument about the microbiome And so to find out If that is true I called up this guy in the dairy capital of the United States My name is John Lucy I'm a professor in the food science department. here at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and I'm also the director of our Center for Dairy Research. And that is not all John is from Ireland And also, I grew up on a farm too, so a dairy farm as well. And I also worked for a couple of years in New Zealand. anotherother dairy country So Wendy, I brought you the Dairy King. Yeah,'s perfect, he's perfect. And so I asked John about this argument that raw milk is good for your gut that it's kind of a probiotic, basically. Yeah And so John told me out of the gate that there is a really good reason to be skeptical of this. And it comes down to the fact that generally, if you've got a healthy cow The milk doesn't out of the cheat shock full of bacteria. There's very little bugs of any description, good batter or indifferent in milk That's where the science is right now,' not that there's a really important good bacteria flora in the raw milk. that's just not where we're at right now. just the science isn't supportive about that That's interesting though, because it definitely suggests that this raw milk in front of me isn't that dangerous, right? We're going to get into the details of that later.. Okay. But like basically the scientists tend to agree that when comomes out initially, like it doesn't really have a bunch of bacteria in it And this actually makes intuitive sense because if you think about like the dairy that we eat that we know, has good probiotic stuff in it, like yogurt That stuff is fermented, which means that you've added that bacteria to it. Of course. You thinking about yogurt, kefa, things like that. Yeah.. And even if there were like a tiny bit of good gut bugs for the microbiome. Yeah, it wouldn't be there in the amount that it would need to be in order to actually do anything inside your gut Yeah Because for a probiotic to work, scientists generally think that like it has to have a lot of these bugs. Here iss John on that. So if you like buy a probiotic supplement and you look at the fine print they'll say it contains pergram millions and billions and whatever of bucks because numbers are important for these benefits. It's not like, because your own gut microbiome is in the Bazilions, you know off the chart H Yeah. The analogy that I always hear from researchers talking about the microbiome is that if you imagine your gut like a rainforest and then You drink some milk and say, it's like a pigeon comes in to the rainforest. It's not gonna it's not gonna change things. It's not gonna flourish Right, rightight. That space is taken Right. Well, exactly. So you can't just like sprinkle in a few things and expect to like fix your You're literally, literally. R. So John actually told me that to do the kind of thing that people are claiming that the milk could do, the milk would need a million per gram of bugs. And if the milk had a million pergram of any bugs, it wouldn't already start to be sour. Oh. Of anything. anything So to me, this This is what makes the microbiome claim fall pretty flat. Like it does not make me want to go running to the local farm for a warm, frothy glass fresh from the odder. All right. So the next claim let's look up is this idea that it can prevent allergies asthma. Yes. Anything to this? This one, Wendy is like a lot more interesting actually. Ooh. This is the one that made me go H. So after the sl intrigue. G it? Five? Yeah. Yes This is a big one that people say, right? They say that if you give kids raaw milk, it can help prevent allergy, it can help prevent asthma. And actually, if raw milk could do this, It would actually be a pretty big deal Because these conditions, asthma and allergies, they're super common in kids. I talked about this with Professor Christine Sarugi. She's a pediatric allergist and immunologist who's also at the University of Wisconsin And she says asthma can be really serious. It is the number one reason for admission to the hospital for a child sthma asthma Really the number one reason Exactly. And so if you can prevent it in the first place from developing, that's game changing Yeah, and we've seen a rise in allergies and asthma kids, riot? Yes. And that's what she pointed out too, is that like in a lot of countries, these numbers are going up. So this all is connected to raw milk because a couple of decades ago, we started getting studies relating to asthma and allergies in this particular group. kids who live on farms. So what these studies would do is that a lot of times there are these big surveys coming out of Europe. And they would look at thousands of kids comparing the health of the farm kids, medical conditions they had to kids who didn't live on the farm And what they found was really striking epidemiologic evidence that the children growing up on farms there really protected from developing allergic diseases. Some people say the farm effect One study out of Austria found that about one percent of the farm kids had asthma compared to about four percent of kids who didn't live on the farm. You know A study out of Germany found that just over three percent of the farm kids had asthma, compared to more than six percent of non farm kids. Yeah. It's more than allergies and asthma. It's like skin conditions, stuff like eczema. These histamine things, yeah. And Christine told me this finding, it's been born out in the US as well. I feel like This story of kids on farms having low allergies. it's sort of I feel like the science has known this for a while but it's had in the past been attributed to the hygiene hypothesis and that maybe these kids on farms are exposed to more dirt and that's really good for them and lowering their risk of of getting these Illnesses is now the thought moving? Maybe it's because they're drinking raw milk You have entered the ring on this debate, Wendy. So Jna walk me through so with the hygiene hypothesis. Let's bing, ding, bing, bing,ing. Okay, so what what is the up to date thinking on that The up to date thinking is that yes, like these exposures to things on the farm, to like dust, to dander, all these things that challenge your immune system at a really young age and sort of teach your immune system s like what's out in the world and basically strengthens it so that like when it encounters that stuff later, you don't have a big allergic reaction to it. The idea is still that that's important. At the same time Some scientists have also looked closer And started to think that maybe also the milk that these farm kids are drinking is at play. Okay. And some of these particularly some of these researchers out of Europe started thinking this becausecause they looked at these they did these big observational studies of a lot of kids. and they tried to Look at kids who were in some cases, not living on the farm but who were drinking raw milk. and they tried to control for some of those other exposures on the farm And they have started to say, we think that there is something going on with the milk. L dont we think that the hygiene hypothesis is part of this But we also think that the milk is at play This will just show my ignorance, living on a farm, growing up on a farm These kids aren't drinking raw milk. I feel like we're making some assumptions here. I'm guessing the researchers actually asked. families. Wendy, you're such a good student of the challenges of this research. How did you know? Wait, is this an actual question? Yeah, yeah, it is. So it is not always clear that the stuff that the kids are drinking on the farm is strictly raw milk because Some of the time Even if kids are drinking milk from the farm, it's getting boiled, iss getting treated some kind of way In the studies don't always check for that And then On top of that, Some of these studies coming out of Europe are comparing this farm milk to milk that has gone way beyond sort of standard pasteurization So this is stuff that like has been heated up way higher to a way higher temperature. And that kind of milk is more common in Europe. It's actually like the milk that you get that you don't have to put in the fridge, like the shelf stable stuff. Oh, like the crap you get on a plane Right likeike a sterilized that's sitting in a hotel room in a little box, that sort of stuff. Exactly. That can just sit on the shelf for three months or whatever without being refrigerated. So you compare it to that, which is Seriously processed milk, right And so online, this is what a lot of people seem to get wrong about these studies. You know, they're assuming that like farm milk is raw milk. But if you actually read the nitty gritty papers, you see sometimes that's not true And sometimes what they're looking at is something else, Wendy, called quote minimally processed milk You wantan to know what that is? Yeah minimally processed milk. What's that? So that is pasteurized milk It's that science versus touch flight, getting into the papers working out what all the definitions are. That's right, we love a definition. That's why we're here. And so I will say despite all that Scientists like Christine, they are not like driving a nail through the coffin of this claim that raw milk might do something to help reduce allergies. So when she looks at all this complexity She's like, I'm not crying over spilt milk. Correct. Christ. She doesn't think the science is il She thinks we shouldn't be lapping up the science out of Europe and using it to bolster claims that raw milk is good for you. But she doesn't think we're ready for a milk shake up And we should all be drinking raw milk now. She does not think that. So we've done our puns. whereere do we go from here then? I'm not gonna leave you with just that. Okay, okay it would because you would tell me more. U I can sorry, sorry, sorry. I can could squeeze out a few more drops of sign U, just Okay Okay, we've really made this for all the l. Oh my Gods. I'm gonna put my dipper back into the pail, Wendy, and pull out more science for you Okay. So Christine actually was part of a study that I did think does some work here to help us parse out How big of a deal raw milk might be? Like if there's a signal, how much might that matter compared to like the other stuff people are exposed to on the farm, right And so Christine is based in Wisconsin, and she works with a lot of people. She studies a lot of different families who live on farms. And what she did is some research into these two particular groups in the US The Amish and the old order Mennonites Are you familiar? Yeahah. I've been to Pennsylvania, Incourse Big Amish community there My parents laughed a lot at the name and I didn't understand why was funny. I do now Um Tell me more So yes, so the Amish and the old Order Meta Kites are similar in a lot of ways. They often have big families. They live these like sort of more traditional farming lifestyles, not big on technology a lot of the time And They tend to drink Raw milk, okay, great R I' from the farm. Yes. G Yes, yes. But these two groups are different in one important way So the Amish often don't use any electricity at all, and the Menonites, some of them do have electricity. So they tend to sometimes use mechanized processes for things. So Christine's team, what they did is that they surveyed a bunch of families in these two groups They looked at the rates of asthma, the rates of allergy, and they found The Amish community is like super protected. Like they had decreased allergic diseases across the board compared to the old order Mennonites This might suggest that what matters here is that they're doing all this stuff by hand with the animals. So that animal contact is what's important So what you see in like an Amish family, and I'm speaking generally here, right, is that people are in the barn, you know, They're like one on one, they're milking the cows by hand. They're in the cow shed. It's not about drinking the raw milk, it's about all that time with the animals. This is the suggestion that the time with the animals could be more important Which is back to the hygene hypothesis. That's bing bing bing exact hyeneye Bing, Bing bing Yes. Yes. Another scientist told me that in Amish households, a lot of times it's the women who are doing the milking. so they're in the barns a lot, including when they're pregnant, maybe including when they have really small babies. know, and that the kids are involved. And so there's like just a lot of exposure one on one with animals that if you have like a mechanical milking setup orr like a more mechanized farm, you're on the tractors, all this stuff You're just like not in it with the animals nearly as much. And the thinking is that that might be We don't know for sure, but that might be the bigger difference maker here. So like even away from the Amish and the Mennonites, just a bigger picture, you know, Christine's They study a lot of farming families in Wisconsin and they will ask them,, is a child going into the barn And if so, I watch age. I mean, that makes a difference and getting exposed to that bar an environment in the stable, like that is another protective signal. att what age Is it most beneficial for the kid to be in the barn? Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. The data from the epidemiologic studies strongly suggest that This needs to happen early in life. And the European studies have suggested that U even begins in utero.h So actually what we need to be doing is taking our kids to the farm Go into farms when pregnant. to reduce the risk have allergies at ash wella, that's where we're at Yeah, which is sort of is a little bit of an annoying answer, right? L because not everybody has access to that kind of thing, but The other thing Christine told me is that like Get a pet, get a dog. Like that also is a good way for your kid to be exposed to this type of stuff early in life So where we're at with the research of the Bobt This raw milk in front of me not packed with good bacteria And Proably not gonna be the thing to help me with my allergies O reduce your kids chance of having eczema allergies at asthema in the future. Is that where we're at I think that's right Um You know, it's possible there's some kind of link with allergies and asthma. Not really a slam dunk. How are you feeling about the idea of taking a big old gulp of that? Less interested than when we started, I've got to say. bye also less worried about it because John said Probably not that many bad bugs in here. But is that huh that? A Wow I'm gonna have to stop you right there. Okay'kay Let's talk about that After the break Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zbound tzepetide may be able to help. 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Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi Zero suugar for today's match Poetry in motion All right, welcome back. I'm here with Blythe. We are suckling at the Tat of raw milk research. Absolutely. yes, we are. Okay, so now we are onto the risks How dangerous is this glass of milk in front of me? 'causeuse I am getting thirsty black. No. My time is running out. I'm parched. I'm parched. Right. Okay, let me tell you. Even though, like John said, the milk doesn't start out with a bunch of bugs in it, if the cow is healthy Of course, sometimes the cow is not healthy, and gnarly stuff can get into the milk that way So actually astute listeners of the show will remember from our bird flu episode that cows can get bird flu, and that can get into their milk. Yes, That's right. But even if the cow is healthy, you have something else to worry about becausecause the other big concern is that Even if the milk comes out okay, it can get contaminated afterward Bugs can get in Because cows are on farms and the milk comes out of their udds, which are just kind of like flopping around under their bodies.. It's also somewhat close to their butth hole, right? I guess Yes, near the poop shot. Yes. So they can come into contact with all sorts of stuff. And I dug into this with John Lucy, who's the first scientist that we heard from. You know, I grew up in a farm, we do the best we can, but you try and to keep it as clean as you can. to think that the ground or the soil or the beding that the animal is laying down in is sterile is just fantasy. And the problem is the dairy farms are just not a sterile environment Right? You can't the cow's not in a bubble cow is not in the bubble the soil is not in the bubble, The feed is not the bubble That's fascinating. So the comes out Let's say close to sterile, but as soon As it's out, then it's exposed to all of these other things And that stuff that can then infect the milk, that tends to be that Tia Is that right? Yes, exactly. Like that's what we see. dir It's a dirty environment because there's dirt, you know? And actually, one thing that John told me that was also kind of interesting is that This bacteria gets on the teet of the cow somehow. sometometimes it's just like Hangs out there We all see these hospital shows and we see the doctor about to go into the surgery. And he's washing his hands And it's not a five second job It's like scrubbing of the hands, scrubbing, scrubbing, scrubbing. Why? Because on the hands, they can be bacteria and it can formost actually biofilms on the hands and in the environment And that means it's harder to remove than just a simple little wash off The same second can be true on the outside of these other of the teeth that the cow has, they can actually be permanent bacteria living on the outside of it that are very hard to remove. And remember, this is a sensitive area for the cow too. So you can't spend five minutes like the doctor scrubbing And the things we're worried about here are stuff like salmonella Equ coli, this thing called Camp hyloactor And in particular, I want to zoom in on one Tyia listeria. So there's a bunch of different types of listeria, but one of them in particular can make us Prettyick And it can cause gross stuff like diarrhea and nausea. But it's actually especially dangerous to people with compromised immune systems And if you're pregnant It can kill the baby And listeria is kind of all over the farm. You can find it in the soil, you can find it in the cows a lot of the time, at least in their crap Here's John again. I'll give you just an example One of my colleagues here at the University of Wisconsin did a study of a farm here in Wisconsin. When she literally went out and sampled poop from these animals and cows, ninety percent of the animals were carrying listeria monosatogics in their Who though? So then the question is How often is that the Syria up. any of these scary bugs going from the farm to the milk, Right? Right. That's the question. That is the question. Yeah. That is the question. How How often is this grotty stuff actually getting into the milk? Yes, yes. And so one way that scientists try to figure this out is that they look at the milk at the dairy because it comes out of the cows, it all gets collected up before it gets pasteurized. Right? Yeah. And what happens is it gets collected in this big tank called a bulk tank. Okay. And scientists what they'll do is they'll take samples from a bunch of tanks and they'll actually analyze them to see what's in there I would say, you know, if you look at the percentage of the different pathogens, sometimes you see five percent of them are contaminated with listeria percenta contaminated roughly and giving broad ranges with cemle bacter, E Ci, etceter H Yeah, so when they look at these samples, about one in twenty of them have One of these nasty bacteria inside them. But if you amalgamate allone and you ask a slightly different question, John, how many bulk tanks in many of these surveys have at least one pathogen? Sometimes it's as high as twenty to thirty percent have one pathogen present in the bulk tank Whoa Wh, there's no way ake back But you don't like those ads? No way the upper estimate of thirty percent. In the bulk test. Wha! And why would you give that to your pet orr your kid, Wendy. Right. So I mean, the bottom line is like it's pretty common to find creepy stuff in the milk. John talked about those numbers I found a study out of the UK that looked at raw milk that was actually for sale. and it found that forty percent of the samples they looked at had some kind of probleblem with a risky pathogen But then forty right, but then everyone who will then drink Th microbes in their raw milk will then get sick right. Some of them, their immune system will deal with it So How often are people getting sick from drinking raw milk? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, you know, because like look, some people drink raw milk and they are totally fine. you know,'s not like They're drinking arsenic, right? But there have definitely been some disease outbreaks. So this one CDC study looked at about a twenty year period and found more than two hundred outbreaks tied to raw milk in the U S, getting about twenty six hundred people sick Just this year, there have been a couple of outbreaks in the headlines. There was an E coli outbreak that was linked to this raw cheese In Idaho, almost sixty people got sick from raw milk, a bunch of them from campylobactor And look, when you look at the raw numbers, Wendy, nice. People are more likely to get sick from other foods. stuff like seafood, maybe leafy vegetables, like spinach. That is true.. But with raw milk, what freaks out scientists like John is that a lot of the time with these outbreaks, the people who get sick are kids children end up being the most largest percentage of hospitalizations for raw milk outbreaks. They don't have a choice. they don't have anything. They've been mom and dad feeding it to their kids. those are the ones that I get most concerned about And depending which study you take, sometimes it's like a quarter or more are sometimes under the age of three and five years old Me People are thin, Ohh, I've got to expose my kids Vges, are you serious to going end up in hospital That's the problem And earlier this year, this is actually how raw milk kind of got on my radar because there was a liseria case. So this woman in New Mexico apparently drank raw milk During her pregnancy and she lost her baby because of a listerior infection. she had a listerior infection. Oh God. So like not common from what we can tell But these outbreaks when they happen, peopleeople can die I mean, this is exactly why it's so devastating, right? I mean, I don't know what was happening for this woman during her pregnancy, but more broadly You see these trends and these influencers and people saying, damn the establishment, what do they know? Raw milk is the answer. Pasteurization is a farce And then this is the ultimate conclusion. Of course it is. then people thinking, oh, I've got to be drinking raw milk to help my unborn child and reduce the chance of them getting allergies and then they're missing the bigger picture That is listeria, right And the stakes are just really high. because it's not common for those horrible horrible things to happen But when they do, they's so foam. They're awful. Yeah, yeah. I just want it to Just want to spill that milk right in front of me. but this coppet. dont I don't wantan to have to clan that So I mean, it's really feeling like this raw milk. Rw milk's not coming back from that. R? No, I don't think so. U And I mean, you know just to say like some raw milk producers, of course, they'll say like, listen, we try to avoid this. We keep things clean, we try to test for bacteria And also like there are instances where stuff sneaks into pasteurized milk and makes you sick. Right. But one study found that when people were getting sick from contaminated dairy ninety six percent of the time It was the raw stuff. Wow. Okay Yeah, yeah, yeah ninety six percent of the time, which is why we pasteurize it Pasteurization works really well to kill all the stuff that we are talking about. You had it fast in twenty twenty six. one hundred plus years later. Pasteurization works really well. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, listen, John was like, it's good that we've been doing it so long, you know, L it's allowed us to like Test it and Refine it and figure out systems for it, figure out how to do it at scale. And all of that has been put in place over a hundred years to show that pasteurized milk is one of the safest food products on the planet So I asked him Is there a way to have safe raw milk You're shaking your head. No. It's a foolish and risky thing to do I don't want to be called foolish by John So what are you gonna do with that milk I'm mean There's this Annoying neighborhood cats And't you know that? Might be thirsty Thisisses on my security gate. If you even. It says oess pet milk garly. Oh my Godd, Wendy. Throw it out, put it down the drain Comments, what should I do with the Rw Yeah, I think they'll tell you exactly where you can put it when Oh That's science masses God