Retrial and Final Verdict

Hi listeners, exciting news. Crime House Plus and Murder trrue crrime stories are celebrating America's two hundred fiftieth by dropping a four part limited series on the crimes that built America These are the crimes and cases that gave us miranda rights, sparked criminal profiling, and a murder that built America's missing children movement Follow murder trrue crrime stories for a new episode every Monday, leading up to july fourth, or you can listen to all of them right now with Crime House Plus. To join, go to crimehouseplus d. com or if you're listening on Apple podcasts, tap try free at the top of this show's page This is Crime House These days we talk a lot about our truths. We speak our truth, live by it, and stand by it. Usually when someone refers to their truths, they're talking about their emotions, perceptions, or opinions. It's a way of expressing our side of the story But for some people, personal truth can become completely separate from objective reality or the actual truth And when that happens, there's no telling what one person's truth may drive them to do In the case of Andrea Yates, her truth was driven by complete fear utter delusion. And when Andrea decided to act on her beliefs It resulted in one of the most tragic crimes in the nation's history A human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate, but sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is sererial Killers and Murderous Minds, a crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson. And I'm forensic psychologist, doctor Tristan Ingels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest Minds in history Analyzing what makes a killer Crime House exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crime House pllus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday completely ad free. No waiting three days for part two, plus Crime House bonus episodes every month Before we get started, be advised this episode contains descriptions of child murder, so please listen with care Today we conclude our deep dive on Andrea Yates, a devout Christian and stay at home mother whose one wish was for her family to make it to heaven one day. In Andrea's mind, the only thing holding them back from that dream was the literal demons surrounding them As Andrea's mental health deteriorated over the years, she became convinced there was nowhere safe to run And in the end, she decided the only way to protect her family was to remove them from this earth herself As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some offenders use violence as a solution to their own fears, what happens in the brain when someone is met with sudden, tragic news, and how contentious public perception can influence a trial And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? We've all been there. You look up, suddenly life has thrown so much at you that your to do list is completely out of control. For me, it was last month when I moved and I needed to install a cabinet in my bathroom and fix a broken light fixture. I knew just where to turn. 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Taskers book up fast, especially for same day tasks, so book trusted Home Help today teen dollars off your first task using promo code Crime House with the TaskRbbit app or at taskraabbit d. com Crisp, Rereshing, and unmistakably tasty. ice cold Coke zero suugar. It's the only drink with real Coca Cola taste and zero sugar By April of two thousand one, thirty six year old Andrea Yeates was living in Houston, Texas with her husband, Rusty and their five children, who were between six months and seven years old Andrea and Rusty had everything they'd ever wanted. Lots of kids, a man of the house who provided, and a woman who cared for the children and did all the housework Despite achieving their faith based ideals, Andrea and Rusty's lives had been extremely fraught Andrea had been hospitalized three times over three years for severe mental health crises. Doctors believed she was suffering from major depressive disorder as well as postpartum psychosis At Rusty's request, Dr. Mohammed Said had recently represcribed her the antipsychotic known as Haldal, because Andrea had described having vivid and violent intrusive thoughts. And she believed Satan possessed her Andrea hadn't had much success with psychiatric medication in the past, neither antidepressants nor antipsychotics Mainly because she and Rusty's fringe Christian beliefs prohibited the use of any medications So she never took her medications as prescribed Still, doctor Sayed wanted to try a newer antipsychotic in hopes it would be more effective and therefore make Andrea more willing to take it, but Rusty had convinced him to prescribe Haldal instead The risk of taking an antipsychotic that might not actually be suitable for her is significant because with severe psychosis, medication choice and medication adherence actually matter. If a patient is taking a medication that's not effective for them or not taking it consistently or are stopping it abruptly, symptoms may continue worsening while everyone believes that treatment is still continuing But what stands out to me here is that I don't know if doctor Said was getting the full picture. Was he told that Andrea was taking them as prescribed and they still did not work? orr was he told that they were ineffective because she repeatedly stopped taking them shortly after her discharge? Those are two very different situations, and that changes his clinical picture as well And this is important for clinicians because not everyone is a fully reliable historian, even loved ones who genuinely believe that they're helping. Sometimes the information we get is incomplete, minimized, filtered, or shaped by what they're most comfortable with. That doesn't mean that it's malicious intent, but if the clinician's not getting the full story, treatment decisions like this one become much harder I also think doctor Said may have been in a difficult position clinically because if Andrea and Rusty were resistant to newer medications and Heldol was the only option they were actually willing to accept and willing to continue, then he may have viewed any treatment as better than no treatment at all. I really can't speak for his clinical decision in that moment because one, I'm not him and two, I'm not a psychiatrist But I do wonder whether Andrea's providers had enough accurate historical information to fully appreciate how unstable the overall picture had actually become over time So in general, what are the risks involved with a patient regularly changing their medication regimen, especially as it involves antipsychotics and antidepressants So again, to be clear, I'm not a psychiatrist. I don't prescribe medication. But that said, I have worked very closely with psychiatrists in formulating treatment plans for individuals like Andrea, and medication changes and adjustments are very common. Finding the right medication, the right dose or a combination takes time and especially with severe depression or psychosis, and especially in treatment resistant individuals. Psychiatrists routinely adjust treatment based on symptom response, their side effects, their safety, and their adherence concerns. The bigger concern, I think, is when medications are repeatedly stopped abruptly like she has been doing or taking inconsistently or changed before clinicians can even accurately assess whether the medication was helping to begin with That can become very destabilizing, particularly with antipsychotics and antidepressants. And that is something that Andrea was consistently doing. With severe psychiatric illness, consistency matters because clinicians need enough time, like I said, and stability to evaluate what is working, what is not, whatever side effects are emerging, and whether symptoms are actually improving. And if the regimen is consistently interrupted or someone is misusing the medication or combining them with illicit substances or alcohol, then the clinical picture becomes much harder to interpret and the relapse risk can increase significantly. but also that causes a provider to want to make medication changes that they otherwise may not have made to begin with Well, in the weeks that followed, Andrea's medication regimen would change even more. It started when Russy noticed how withdrawn she seemed Even though she no longer spoke about visions of Satanic possession, he was concerned about her emotional state When Rusty raised these concerns with Dr. Said, he explained that emotional flatness could be a symptom of the Howdll In fact, Dr. Said felt optimistic that Andrea was no longer showing signs of psychosis So he decided to take Andrea off Haldal and keep her on high doses of antidepressants instead doctor Saed gradually tapered Andrea off of Haldal until he felt certain she was stable However, he had no idea that Andrea's distorted thoughts hadn't stopped at all She just stopped telling people about them For years, Andrea had relied heavily on the teachings of the Christian extremist Michael Warnicky Michael had a small following of people who believed he was a quote ambassador of Christ In order to ensure their spots in heaven one day, Michael's followers closely obeyed his doctrine Over the years, Andrea had become extremely paranoid about her children getting into heaven one day, so she made a point to read every single one of Michael's newsletters and listen to each cassette recording he mailed to her. And around the same time Andrea went off her antipsychotics, Michael's messages became extremely dire Both Michael and his wife, Rachel, who was also close with Andrea, had convinced her that she was unrighteous In fact, Michael was the reason Andrea believed that Satan was controlling her Once Michael knew that Andrea was convinced of this, he told her something else. He said the children of unrighteous mothers were also unrighteous. According to Michael, demons hunted for such children. However, there was one way for their souls to be saved if they died before the age of twelve Michael's teachings are built around fear, guilt, and control, which is not unlike most high control leaders. He wants to position himself as the person with the answers because then he can amass a larger following and gain more control that way. And that messaging works on people like Andrea because it gives emotionally overwhelmed people a way to explain their suffering Andrea was already vulnerable. She was severely depressed, psychotic, sleep deprived, isolated, frightened for her children's lives, and invested in being a righteous mother. And Michael's teachings gave structure and meaning to those fears. Now the doctrine has escalated in a concerning way. This is also how high control or fear based ideological systems work. The person's anxiety is intensified, then the doctrine presents itself as the only solution. After a while, the individual may stop trusting their own judgment and rely more heavily on the person defining that reality for them, in this case, Michael And Andrea was particularly vulnerable to this because her thinking had already become rigid and fear driven, like we've been talking about. By this point, she appears to have been filtering his teachings through psychosis and her guilt and distorted reality testing. So the teachings may not have felt symbolic or metaphorical to her. They likely felt literally true and morally or spiritually urgent especially now when she's not presently on any antip psychotic medication and it's unclear if she's even taking her antidepressant consistently. Do you think it's possible that Andrea intentionally hid the signs of her psychosis at this time? Like maybe she knew how Seriously people would react if she told them she believed demons were coming after her children. Absolutely. I think this is very likely. Andrea had already experienced multiple psychiatric hospitalizations, so she knew what happened when her symptoms became visible or when she disclosed certain thoughts Unfortunately, that can create a strong incentive for her to minimize, conceal or selectively disclose what she's really experiencing And this is a reality that providers have to become very skilled at assessing because people do not always directly tell you the level of danger they're in. So for example, someone with active suicidal intent may hide it. if they believe disclosure will lead to hospitalization or intervention That is why clinicians will also assess behavior patterns, warning signs, changes in functioning, collateral information, and inconsistencies in presentation. And in Andrea's case, the content of the psychosis is extremely important. She had just been told that her greatest fear was true, that she was unrighteous and that her children therefore might also be unrighteous and that their salvation was now at risk. So if Andrea truly believed that, then there may have been an intense urgency attached to staying close to her children. So I think there could have been strong motivation for Andrea to conceal the severity of her symptoms. It's a myth that everyone with severe psychosis has lost all awareness of how others will perceive them By june two thousand one, Andrea's fears had reached a boiling point. Rusty's mother, Dora, was still in town, and she'd booked a hotel room and spent the days at the Yates' house helping Andrea out while Rusty was at work Even though the family knew Andrea needed support, they had no idea how dire her mental state had become But on the morning of june twentieth, the horrific truth came to light That morning, as Rusty got ready for work, he noticed that Andrea seemed agitated. She was pacing around the house and barely speaking to him He made sure to give his wife her antidepressants, but since Dora hadn't arrived yet, he still felt uneasy leaving Andrea alone. However, the kids were fed and getting ready for their homeschooling session, and Rusty had an important meeting that morning, so he told himself it was fine He hugged each of his children, then headed out for the day And another content warning before we get into this further, what we're about to describe is incredibly disturbing and deals with the death of children We're only providing necessary details to provide the full picture, but please again, listen with care. Shortly before nine AM, once Rusty drove off, Andrea went upstairs. She moved with mechanical precision as she entered the bathroom and filled the bathtub with water Then she brought her three year old son, Paul into the bathroom Without saying a word, Andrea placed Paul into the tub around him Once she was sure Paul was no longer alive, she carried him into the master bedroom, laid him on the bed, and covered him with a sheet I pause for a second and just check in with the listeners here and with you, Vadessa, because this part of the case is extremely upsetting And I think it's important to remember that explaining Andrea's psychology is not the same thing as excusing what happened Understanding how severe psychosis can distort someone's perception of reality does not erase the horror or the loss involved in this case, and that description was rather horrifying to picture So I hope you're all doing okay with this It's going to get a little bit more graphic. By this point, Andrea's reality testing appears to have become so impaired that she likely believed that she was protecting her children from something worse than death She had become consumed by fears about sin and satan and righteousness and eternal damnation. So within her distorted reality, death seemed to have represented salvation or protection. And this is one of the reasons that postpartum psychosis is considered such a psychiatric emergency In rare but severe cases, the parents' protective instincts do not disappear, even though of course, an argument could be made that they certainly did But they become catastrophically distorted by delusion and impaired by reality testing. And it's truly just very tragic Andrea just seems completely detached from reality at this point. What do you think the likely reason is for her agitated state that morning and her mechanical movements after that? Is it fair to say that she's now in an unstoppable state So obviously it's hard to say for sure without asking Andrea herself. So this is purely speculation and of course educational only. And even asking Andrea, I don't know that she even has the insight to really say That agitation beforehand suggests to me that Andrea's nervous system again, was in a state of extreme activation. There's a pattern of that happening with her And that tells me that she's highly anxious and in threat response mode. But it also sounds like she has been consistently supervised and that likely increased her anxiety even more because that has been prohibiting her. Then, once Rusty leaves, the shift into very mechanical, rigid behavior is also clinically significant because that movement can sometimes occur in severe psychiatric crises It suggests the person may not be processing the situation emotionally the way that we would normally expect Instead, the behavior becomes rigid, automatic, and disconnected. And in some severe mood or psychotic states, especially with catatonic or dissociative features, which she's been documented to have had in the past, people can appear almost robotic or emotionally absent while carrying out certain actions. and the brain and nervous system aren't processing reality, emotion, and behavior in an integrated way in situations like that In Andrea's mind she had just saved her son from eternal damnation. and now She had to do the same for the rest of her children After killing Paul, Andrea killed her two year old son, Luke And thenen she called her five year old son, John upstairs next. He refused. this wasn't their usual bath time, but Andrea wouldn't take no for an answer. In the end, he met the same tragic fate as his brothers Then, Andrea killed her six month old baby daughter, Mary However, Andrea did not move Mary to the bed like the others She was still in the bathtub when Andrea called in her final child, seven year old Noah When Noah entered the bathroom, he looked down at his baby sister and asked, what happened to her Andrea didn't respond. Instead, she grabbed Noah and forced him into the tub. Once he had died, Andrea left him in the tub, then brought Mary into the bedroom, and laid her down on the bed alongside her other siblings Andrea was still moving robotically like someone else was in control. and at nine forty eight AM, she dialed nine hundred eleven Soon, the entire nation would be gripped with one of the most horrifying tragedies ever seen The Best summer wardrobe consists of pieces you wear on repeat because they're comfortable, versatile, and fit right in anywhere. That's why I love Qins. 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Have you ever considered surrounding your house with a moat to keep it safe Would you hire a professional wrestler as a bodyguard for your car Okay, maybe you wouldn't go that far But if you'd go to great lengths to avoid dealing with your insurance company You might have insoranoia And if you have insuranoia, you should have NJM insurance They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders Start relieving your insure anoia today. at njM. com On june twentieth, two thousand one, thirty six year old Andrea Yeates drowned each of her five children at home She believed demons were coming after them and that ending their lives on earth was the only way to ensure their salvation In the immediate aftermath of the murders, Andrea maintained her robotic composure, and she called nine hundred eleven She told the dispatcher she needed the police to come to her house, but she wouldn't tell them why. The dispatcher tried to get any information out of her, still Andrea only repeated herself until finally, they said an officer was on the way Andrea's behavior, immediately afterward, tells us a lot about the psychological state she appears to be in at this point. And that's significant because delusions are not just unusual beliefs. In severe psychosis, they can become fixed realities that completely reshape how someone interprets morality, danger, consequences, and responsibility. They're no longer evaluating the situation through ordinary reality testing. They're operating from a belief that feels unquestionably true to them, even if it isn't So if Andrea genuinely believed that her children were spiritually doomed, that demons were coming for them, and that death was the only way to save them, then those delusions could make these horrific actions feel necessary or even protective within her distorted reality. And I think that is what appears to be happening here presentation suggests someone whose actions still feel psychologically and morally justified inside the delusional framework that she's operating in. In your opinion, how did the combination of Andrea's religious beliefs and her mental illness factor into her specific form of delusion So delusions often pull from a person's existing fears, beliefs, culture and emotional vulnerabilities. So Andrea's fears about purity, righteousness and not getting into heaven and failing as a mother became reinforced by her first breakup. Th Michael's teachings, Rusty's beliefs, and then you added on isolation guilt and her depression, they likely stopped being beliefs at that point. The two appeared to have interacted in a very dangerous way and her beliefs became distorted then at that point by untreated psychosis Andrea's mental state was not only highly dangerous, it was highly unusual As she waited for the police to arrive, she remained in that mechanical state. And next, she called Rusty He was surprised to hear from her because she knew he had an important meeting in just thirty minutes But when he clocked Andrea's cold tone of voice, Rusty immediately knew something was wrong Andrea wasted no time. She told him the kids were hurt She didn't provide any further details, but she didn't have to. Rusty immediately hung up the phone and called his mother, Dora. He urged her to get to the house as soon as possible Then Rusty darted out of his office and raced home The police would arrive before him, orrdora, at nine fifty two AM, just four minutes after Andrea called nine hundred and eleven Officer David Knaapp arrived at the house with no idea what to expect Andrea was standing at the front door when he got there. Her hair was damp and she seemed out of breath. He asked her what the problem was Andrea looked him in the eyes, and with no emotion, she told him she'd just killed her children Then she pointed to the upstairs bedroom. As Officer Knaap entered the house, he noticed unfinished breakfast dishes were still out and toys were laying about on the floor As he climbed the stairs, he scanned rows of family photos then, Officer Knaap stepped into the master bedroom on the bed underneath the sheets He saw the outline of four small bodies Officer Knapp carefully pulled back the sheets. One by one, he checked for signs of life, but there weren't any He immediately called for backup. A few minutes later, his colleague, officer Frank Stumpo arrived And it was Stumpo who entered the bathroom to find Noah's body still in the tub Prettyon, Rusty arrived home. By that time, news vans were lined up and down the street and the house was covered in yellow tape. crim scene analysts swarmed the property, taking photos and collecting evidence Meanwhile, Andrea was sitting at the kitchen table still as a statue. Rusty could barely see her through the doorway. He tried to go inside, but an officer stopped him. Then they broke the gut wrenching news Rusty fell to his knees and screamed before grabbing a plastic chair and hurling it across the yard then he broke into uncontrollable sobs. He'd spent nearly a decade making sure his children were healthy and safe. And now the person who was supposed to be his partner in ensuring their well beinging killed them Rusty just received arguably the most tragic news that one could receive Early on, people may move in and out of shock, numbness, disbelief, rage, guilt, confusion, intntrusive memories, all of those The mind tends to process traumatic grief like that in fragments because it's easier And with Rusty, there are multiple layers of trauma happening all at once here. He's lost all five of his children in the most unimaginable way. And the person responsible was his wife. He's likely replaying every decision leading up to that morning, wondering what did he miss? What should he have done differently and whether this could have been prevented That kind of hindsight guilt is extremely common after traumatic loss or any loss, even when the person did not directly cause what happened. I also think it is important to acknowledge that although Rusty may have underestimated the severity of Andrea's illness or supported medication discontinuation in the past, maybe even reinforced some of the belief systems surrounding her, that does not mean he wanted this outcome. or believed that Andrea was capable of it One of the tragedies in severe mental illness is that families can gradually normalize warning signs over time. They are living inside the situation every day, trying to maintain life demands and doing what they can to hold on to any sense of normalcy they can. And there are aspects of this environment that many clinicians would likely view as concerning, myself included like we talked about throughout this, but recognizing those dynamics is different from placing blame on Rusty for Andrea's actions. And as for healing for Rusty This is not the kind of loss someone simply gets over Realistically, this is the kind of trauma that permanently can change a person. but over time, I think healing is about learning how to carry the grief in ways that allow for optimal functioning in a very new normal And that often involves trauma therapy, grief support, social connection, and rebuilding safety whatever that might be because that's a very subjective experience. And part of that's going to mean learning how to trust someone else again. 'causeuse this is a huge betrayal It was absolutely the worst moment of Rusty's life. He could barely believe it was real Officers escorted him to the backyard where he could have privacy As he stared at Andrea through the back door He shouted at her through the glass, asking how she could have done this Eventually, Dora arrived. The two sat in silence as the authorities filed in and out of the home Inside, investigators asked Andrea simple questions like where to find the house keys Each time she responded in a flat, detached tone. She continued to show no emotion as she was finally taken into custody and made an official confession Soon, she was charged with two counts of capital murder for just three of the children, one for intentionally and knowingly causing the deaths of Noah and John, and a second for killing Mary. If convicted, she was facing the death penalty A few days later, Rusty visited her for the first time When he entered the facility, he hoped he'd be met with some recognizable version of his wife, but Andrea's demeanor hadn't changed And Rusty felt he no longer understood who she was However, Rusty did begin to understand what or who had caused Andrea to do this. Michael Warnicky, the man Rusty had invited into their lives Andrea's lawyers claimed that Michael's radical teachings had driven her to kill their children because she thought it was the only way to save them. Rusty had never intended any of this But now all he could do was try to preserve his children's memories In days that followed, he spoke to the press outside his home, where people had left candles, flowers, and stuffed animals on the front lawn He told reporters about how much his kids had loved playing sports and making arts and crafts And in one final interview, Rusty said Andrea was no longer herself Then he looked directly into the camera and told her he loved her It's unclear whether Rusty communicated with Michael during this time, or if Michael attended the kid' funeral on june twenty seventh, two thousand one, one week after they died However, the authorities prohibited Andrea from attending the funeral. Instead, she spent her time gearing up for the trial that would soon be making headlines nationwide And so was the media. Pretty soon, two competing narratives surrounding the crimes began to take shape. In one version, Andrea Yates was a mother who had acted with chilling intent. She'd filled a bathtub and executed her children one by one, even when her oldest tried to run To many, Andrea's actions suggested a high level of awareness and control However, many others believed that despite how devastating Andrea's actions were, her mind had fractured under the weight of her mental illness, and that her perception of reality had become completely distorted I think cases like this divide people because of the uncomfortable realities they force us to face For example, the acts themselves are horrifying. People naturally look at the sequence of events and if there is a level of organization involved, they often question how someone could commit such an act without understanding it was wrong. That's because most people instinctively associate planning, repetition, or goal directed behavior with intent and awareness. But severe psychosis does not always look disorganized. Someone can still complete purposeful actions while their perception of reality is profoundly distorted. But that reality is uncomfortable for some because it's unsettling and it's unpredictable And at the same time, people also react emotionally to what the case represents. For some, recognizing the role of severe mental illness feels too close to excusing the deaths of innocent children. And others focus on the case factors, like you mentioned, her extensive psychiatric history, her psychosis, the delusions, hospitalization, medication issues, warning signs, and they see the failures there And honestly, all reactions are understandable and they're all very deeply human in general What is it that motivates people to place others in clearly defined categories like that We don't like uncertainty. We need terrible things to happen for identifiable reasons because that gives us a sense that we can control for them or at least feel safer from them Categorizing helps it because it creates a sense of predictability and psychological safety. But real human psychology just doesn't work like that The first thing to note, the vast majority of severely mentally ill individuals never become violent But The reality is someone can be mentally ill and still responsible for harmful actions. A mother can love their children and still take their lives in violent ways. And I think this case challenged a lot of people's assumptions about mental illness or motherhood, morality and responsibility all at once, and that's deeply uncomfortable for many people to sit with People on both sides felt strongly about their views, and soon, these two narratives would shape the legal battle ahead Even Andrea's lawyers struggled to understand her mental state. During trial preparations, they noticed that her pupils appeared large and dark. She always seemed to be staring at something that wasn't there. One of her lawyers noted that in all his years practicing law, he had never seen someone so profoundly troubled Ultimately, Andrea's attorneys work to build an insanity defense The question was, after such an atrocity, would the jury believe it? If you've been holding back on launching your dream business, it's time to stop making excuses. Shopify is where you finally go to get started. They offer everything you need to succeed from day one. 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It's another easy Sunday United Health Group makes these ordinary days possible with partners like the University of Tennessee Health Sciences, helping communities manage their health closer to home fififty four percent of participants have lowered their blood pressure, meaning fewer heart attacks and more Sundays at the park This might feel like an ordinary day. to United Health Group? It's the healthcare system working better for everyone. Learn more at unitedhealthgroup. com slash commitment. Eight seven, seven, three nine three four, four, four eight Anoon five so first so fine. got another provider leaving behind. Come on everybody, let's get online. thirty a month gonna blow your mind. Five oes don't hesitate. L it in now before's too late eight seven, seven, three nine three four Four four Ts apply see optimum. com for details In the aftermath of Andrea Yatates killing her five children, Noah, John, Paul, Luke, and Mary, the nation was divided. As the story dominated headlines, many felt that Andrea was a cold blooded, heartless killer whileile others believed she'd fallen victim to a severe mental health crisis So when Andrea's trial started in early two thousand two, about seven months after the children's deaths, the main question centered around whether she'd understood what she was doing when she killed them The defense argued that Andrea had been completely disconnected from reality at the time. They called a forensic psychiatrist to the stand who emphasized Andrea's belief that she was possessed by Satan However, the prosecution countered with the fact that Andrea herself had confessed to the precise and deliberate manner of her actions, and they pointed to her history of violent thoughts as evidence of premeditation Although the defense's experts arguue that psychotic individuals can exhibit organized, sequential behavior while still being disconnected from reality prosecutors had acc coued that too, they called an expert witness, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Patrick Deets He testified that Andrea had likely been influenced by an episode of the TV show Law and Order, in which a woman kills her children and is found not guilty by reason of insanity. The implication was that Andrea knew what she was doing and that she'd planned to game the justice system. And even though there was no evidence she'd actually seen that episode of Law and Order The defense didn't effectively challenge the testimony, so it stood Let's talk about the insanity defense for a moment Different jurisdictions use different legal standards, but generally the core question is whether there was a qualifying mental disease or defect and whether that condition impaired the person's ability to appreciate the nature, wrongfulness, or consequences of their action at the time of the offense. In Andrea's case, I do not think the defense would have had difficulty establishing the existence of a severe mental illness By this point, there had been multiple psychiatric hospitalizations, suicide attempts, documented psychosis, severe decompensation, medication non compomplance, and repeated deterioration when she was off antipsychotic medication. I think their individual assessment with her would corroborate the record as well The more difficult legal question is whether Andrea appreciated the wrongfulness of what she was doing at the time of the murders. And that is where these cases become incredibly complex. Some evidence could be interpreted as suggesting awareness and intentionality. For example, the morning of the offense, Andrea appeared agitated, pacing, barely speaking, and waiting until Rusty left before acting. A jury could absolutely view those sequence of events like drawing the bath immediately after he left, carrying out the acts, and then calling police afterward evidence of planning and awareness The defense would likely argue something very different. The likely example would be Andrea's reality testing had become so profoundly distorted by psychosis that although she understood she was physically killing her children, she may not have appreciated the moral wrongfulness of the acts because as a result of her delusions, she genuinely believed she was doing the right thing and was saving them There is a distinction between legal wrongfulness and moral wrongfulness. and severe psychosis can create that kind of distortion. Someone can still engage in organized or goal directed behavior while operating under severe delusional beliefs. So legally, this becomes about whether Andrea knew whether her psychosis prevented her from rationally appreciating the true wrongfulness of those acts at the time That would be the part they would need to convince the trier of fact on. And I think they would have a very good chance at that given her history, her behavior in the months, the weeks, the days and hours leading up to the offents, and her behavior after the evvent up until the present. And lastly, as a forensic psychologist does conduct these evaluations, I would never testify to information that had no evidentiary relevance to the case. If there was no evidence that Andrea had actually seen a television episode external material the prosecution wanted to reference, I would not consider that clinically or forensically reliable support for an opinion at all. Doing so could have catastrophic results legally and professionally Have you ever been called to testify in a situation like this one Yes, I have. and typically, I'm called to testify in cases I've personally evaluated. and more often than not, those cases do involve criminal responsibility or insanity, as they call it, since they tend to go to trial the most. And honestly, the experience is adversarial no matter who you are. Whether you are a fact witness or an expert witness, the opposing side is going to challenge your credibility, your methods, your conclusions, your wording, and even your qualifications If my opinion is that the defendant was sane at the time of the commission of the crime or the alleged crime, then it is usually the defense cross examining me aggressively and trying to undermine confidence in my testimony. If my opinion is that the defendant met criteria for insanity, then it is often the prosecution doing that instead. That is part of the role. And my job is not to advocate for one side. My job is to provide an opinion grounded in the evidence, the clinical findings, records, collateral information, and the legal standard in that jurisdiction, regardless of which side benefits from it I stick to the facts. I answer only the questions I've been asked, and I leave emotion out of it no matter how adversarial it can feel. Well, in this case, the prosecution's strategy seemed to work because in march two thousand two, after weeks of testimony, the jury found Andrea Yates guilty of capital murder for the deaths of Noah, John, and Mary. She was sentenced to life in prison, but the jury decided against the death penalty For many, that felt like the end of the story. The system had done its job, but there was one problem because soon a key piece of testimony came under scrutiny After Andrea's sentencing, a journalist who'd previously written for Law and Order said that the episode that had played such a critical role in the case didn't actually exist It was a bombshell revelation, and it was enough to warrant a retrial in two thousand six This time, the court examined Andrea's state of mind at the time of the murders more carefully, not just her own mental health, but other outside factors like the influence of Michael Warnicky Michael's teachings and the extreme impact they had were under the microscope, not only on Andrea, but many of his followers Meanwhile, just outside the courtroom, Michael and his wife Rachel spoke to the press, rejecting the idea that their teachings had played a role in the children's deaths. Ultimately, no charges were ever brought against him. Realistically, Andrea is the person who physically committed the murders But psychologically, I do think it is reasonable to examine whether Michael's teachings influence the content and structure of her delusions. And by this point, Andrea appears profoundly psychotic and highly suggestible within that religious framework. Michael's messaging repeatedly reinforced themes of unrighteousness, maternal failure spiritual danger surrounding children or her children. And like we discussed earlier, those exact themes became intertwined with her psychosis later. That does not mean Michael caused Andrea's psychosis though Svere mental illness was already present, but belief systems can absolutely shape how delusions are interpreted and expressed, especially in someone who's already detached from reality. And I think it's important to distinguish psychological influence from legal accountability. Based on what we know, Andrea listened to Michael's teachings and appears to have interpreted them through a severely psychotic lens, meaning she interpreted his teachings in a distorted way There was direct evidence that Michael explicitly instructed Andrea or anyone else kill their children before a certain age to ensure they made it into heaven, then the legal conversation changes significantly. But based on what we currently have, that does not appear to be the case What the evidence does show is that he stated, children who died before a certain age were spared damnation He did not suggest, instruct or incite anyone to take the lives of their children to accomplish this So legally, there's nothing criminally here for them to charge him for Psychologically though Again, the teachings I feel contributed to an environment that reinforced fear, guilt, rigidity, and treatment resistance in someone who is already extremely vulnerable Andrea appears to have internalized the idea that she alone was responsible for protecting her children spiritually, while at the same time believing she herself was morally failing. That's a lot for someone to experience while delusional. And his teachings also appear to have lacked clear ethical boundaries around how vulnerable followers might interpret them But unfortunately, he did not have a legal duty to provide those boundaries. He was a religious preacher