Trial Conviction and Legacy of Lies

Hi listeners, exciting news. Crime House Plus and Murder trrue crrime stories are celebrating America's two hundred fiftieth by dropping a four part limited series on the crimes that built America These are the crimes and cases that gave us miranda rights, sparked criminal profiling, and a murder that built America's missing children movement Follow murder trrue crrime stories for a new episode every Monday, leading up to july fourth, or you can listen to all of them right now with Crime House Plus. To join, go to crimehouseplus d. com or if you're listening on Apple podcasts, tap try free at the top of this show's page This is Cime House Most of us have different versions of ourselves. The way we act around our friends may be different from how we act around our families or our coworkers Usually these versions only vary slightly. We make different jokes or ask different kinds of questions. That's normal But for some people, their alter ego is a different person entirely. and they build entire worlds around deep Dark secrets. Richard Kuklinsky was one of those people. To some, he was a quiet family man, but to others, he was a force to be reckoned with. And if anyone got in his way, they'd wind up dead. However, Richard couldn't hide the truth from everyone, and he had no idea when he came face to face with the one person who knew that both sides of him were part of the same coin The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a crime House Original. I'm Vanessa Richardson. And I'm forensic psychologist doct. Tristan Ingels. Every Monday and Thursday, we uncover the darkest Minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer Crime House is made possible by you, follow serial killers and murderous minds, and subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad free early access to each two part series. Before we get started, be advised this episode contains descriptions of drugs, violence, and murder Today, we conclude our deep dive on Richard Kuklinsky, the serial killer known as the Ice Man Richard was a notorious hitman who helped a powerful mafia family reach new heights. As he navigated the criminal underworld, Richard's tactics went from being a problem solving strategy to his way of life And in the process, he claimed he took over a hundred lives But when he became blinded by his own greed, Richard fell into a trap he couldn't escape As Vanessa goes to the story, I'll be talking about things like why a member of organized crime may turn on their own boss, the psychology of undercover police work, and why some violent offenders chase fame after they're convicted. And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? If you've spent years trying every diet out there, only to end up feeling totally stuck, listen up, this summer can actually be different. You deserve to feel amazing in your own skin, and weight loss by hers is here to help you finally shake things up. 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Wagovi is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS To get started and learn more, including important safety information, will go v clinical study information and restrictions, visit forhers. com. We've all been there. You look up, suddenly, life has thrown so much at you that your to do list is completely out of control. For me, it was last month when I moved and I needed to install a cabinet in my bathroom and fix a broken light fixture I knew just where to turn. Finding a tasker on Task Rabbit makes tackling your to do list even easier. And I honestly felt this wave of blissful relief watching a seasoned tasker handle it all in a couple of hours. I like to use the same tasker for home repairs, but I know if he's not available, the app is filled with more than qualified taskers. Task Rabbit is an app that makes everyday life easier by helping people get more done around the home It connects you with skilled taskers in your area for everything from mounting and yardw to home repairs. You can search for the best tasker for the job based on cost, skill set, availability, and past client reviews, so you always feel confident. I use Task Rabbit and you should check it out too. When life happens, your to do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get fifteen dollars off your first task at taskraabbit dot com or on the Task raabbit app using promo code Crime House. Taskers book up fast, especially for same day tasks, so book trusted Home Help today. That's fifteen dollars off your first task using promo code Cime House with the Taskrabbit app or at taskrabbit d. com By the early nineteen eighties, Richard Kuklinski had killed dozens of men for the New York Mafia. He was the most valuable hitman to the Gambino family crew leader, Roy Dem Mayo Not only was Richard a skilled gunman and methodical killer, but he knew how to leave no trace of his crimes. He left the scene spotless and disposed of his victims's remains in remote, nond descript locations Recently, he'd even started freezing bodies before disposing of them in order to obscure the time of death. Richard had different ideas for his next mark. In this case, he wanted his victim's body to be found becausecause he was going after Roy himself. Despite how well Richard covered up his crimes, authorities had found at least one person's body, George Maliband, who Richard had killed in nineteen eighty over a debt dispute On top of that, federal investigators were closely watching the Gambino Crime family, who Richard and Roy DMo worked for, and were filing indictments against various members Because of this, Roy's paranoia reached a breaking point. He no longer trusted any of his associates out of fear they were acting as police informants When Roy started talking about killing off his own men, Richard knew he had to act fast. becausecause eventually, Roy would come after him Details of what happened next are unclear, but according to Richard, he took it upon himself to kill Roy And around january twentieth, nineteen eighty three, police found Roy's body inside the trunk of his abandoned Cadillac. He had seven gunshot wounds to the head We already discussed at length how Richard uses violence as a tool and how he views control and power. Up to this point, he's been operating within a hierarchy He's been taking orders, proving loyalty, and staying in line Roy, on the other hand, represents authority, but also protection. What changes here is that Richard no longer sees Roy as a structure that is stable Roy's paranoia makes him unpredictable and unpredictability is something Richard doesn't tolerate well. So he starts to see himself as someone who can override it And to me, that suggests he's starting to position himself above Roy There's also a level of anticipatory thinking here. He's acting on what he believes Roy might do, not what he's already done A perceived threat is enough to justify extreme action to Richard, but that's not unusual in the environment he operates in either. But that's where his ego comes in. If this was him, he just executed someone in power who is currently under a law enforcement microscope and seemingly without concern about the many risks involved both internally and externally just so he could benefit from it. That indicates a lot of confidence, entitlement, and a perception that he's untouchable What does this suggest about Richard's sense of loyalty or lack of loyalty? And what does that say about his criminal mentality? Is he showing signs of megalomania if I have the meaning right there, or something similar to that That is loyalty is conditional He looks at relationships based on function and risk Again, we saw that with his first wife and how quickly he left her for Barbara. We saw that with George and how quickly he was willing to kill him when that friendship became too risky for him. It's built into the transactional and callousist business that he conducts. And now we see it with Roy His own self preservation is prioritized over anyone, and he's willing to override authority for it, which is what I think would explain the megalomania part that you asked about. Though I don't think it's quite that. I think it's more just about overconfidence. He's very self assured, but he's still grounded in practicality in his world is removing a perceived threat rather than a grandiose belief system. He was fine working for Roy. He was fine working under him. He didn't feel the need to be better or above Roy until Roy became a risk Well, if Richard was telling the truth about Roy's murder, then his ego was probably through the roof in the aftermath Eespecially when he realized the authorities had no idea who was responsible But it was clear to them that tensions were rising in the Gambino family, so they ramped up their investigative efforts And meanwhile, Richard scaled up his own operation Roy had controlled his contracts. He'd allegedly paid Richard tens of thousands of dollars per hit Now Richard had to strike out on his own, which he was more than happy to do He just didn't want to be a hitm anymore. He was ready to branch out Richard quickly got involved in car theft and other robbery and black market deals. Of course, he claimed he still took anyone's life who crossed him. The only difference was that now he murdered people on his own terms. He was his own boss, and he loved it However, being in charge of his own schedule was tough, especially because cleaning up murder scenes was so time consuming, which meant he had less time to commit car theft and negotiate backroom deals Richard wanted to find a way to avoid the extra hassle. To do that, he turned to a man named Robert Pronge By day, Robert drove an ice cream truck around the New Jersey suburbs people there knew him by the name, Mr. Softty By night, Robert was known to sell more than just ice cream. He ran his own criminal enterprise In addition to guns and explosives, he sold poison And that's what brought Richard to him Richard wanted to find a way to kill people without blood splatter, and he'd heard that cyanide could be an effective method Robert confirmed this. He told Richard that cyanide was a fast acting poison that slowly suffocates its victims Not only that, but medical examiners didn't test for cyanide poisoning, which meant cyanide related deaths seemed like heart attacks It all sounded good to Richard, a little too good, perhaps. He told Robert he wanted to test it out before buying anything, and Robert was eager to help. One day, the two of them hung out on a street corner outside of a bank They waited for a random man to walk out And when someone did, Robert allegedly approached him and pretended to sneeze. At the same time, he quickly sprayed cyanide from a small bottle into the man's face Within seconds, the man collapsed and died right before their eyes Robert and Richard fled the scene, and once they were a safe distance away, Richard said he was impressed. He was ready to start buying cyanide from Richard Let's talk about poison as a method Some offenders choose poison because it creates distance. It can be less confrontational. It's less physically demanding, and in some cases it's less detectable, at least immediately. The person using poison can feel detached from the act while still achieving the same outcome. With Richard though, this doesn't appear to be about emotional distance. It's practical. He's moving from methods that are time consuming and messy to something that's quick, efficient and requires far less cleanup And that tells you his decision making is driven by function. And that's consistent with what we've been seeing from him and discussing in episode one His focus is on outcome. Anything or anyone can be interchangeable as long as it serves his goal. So this is instrumental. He's refining his methods and he's seeking efficiency Robert wanted to hit the ground running, but he'd have to take things slow because Robert only had so much cyanide in stock It wasn't easy to come by, so Richard got what he could when it was available Meanwhile, he tried to make the best use of his time running his schemes as efficiently as possible Sometimes, that meant disposing of bodies that he'd been keeping in a freezer. Richard believed that the longer he stored the bodies, the more it would obscure the details of his victim's deaths One example included Louis Mazay, who Richard had killed back in nineteen eighty one Richard waited two years until nineteen eighty three to finally dispose of Lewis's body in a remote location This sort of housekeeping, so to speak, was necessary, and it kept Richard busy. But what he really wanted was to get his hands on enough cyanide to avoid the issue altogether, because if the deaths appeared natural, no one would investigate Eventually, he'd meet someone who could help him out. But Richard would have no idea that it was Lewis Mazgay's murder that led him to cross paths with this man or what that man's true motives were. It all started when Lewis' body was found, and the authorities determined that it had been frozen for about two years beforehand They couldn't identify a more specific window for when Lewis was killed, and they knew this was by design. Whoever killed Lewis had intentionally muddied the waters They were looking for a highly skilled criminal. and based on the MO, they nicknamed that person the Ice manan Investigators didn't know that Richard Kuklinsky was the man they were looking for, but his name was on their radar, because as the FBI closed in on various mob rackets, they noticed that Richard always seemed to be floating in the periphery For a while, he wasn't their top priority However, as time went on, one agent noticed something suspicious Dominic Polyiffron was a veteran ATF undercover agent who had infiltrated all five New York Mafia families Dominic's ability to blend in stemmed from his own rough New Jersey upbringing. From a young age, he'd spent a lot of time around hardened criminals, including the mafia Even though he embarked on a very different life path, he knew how to blend in with them As an ATF agent, Dominic posed as a criminal looking to buy guns, explosives, and other weapons. eventually after working undercover for years all over the country He was told to get a foot in the door with the New Jersey mob, who Richard had also been brokering deals with, and it was during this assignment that Dominic started noticing Richard more and more Dominick often spent time at a New Jersey storefront that served as a mob hangout, and he saw Richard meeting with people there a lot And then, Dominic realized that many of the people Richard met with went missing shortly after Armed with this information, Dominic and his team surmised that the reason many of their suspects kept disappearing was because Richard was killing them, and with that He became their prize catch. Dominic knew that a guy like Richard wouldn't trust an outsider easily. Even though Richard wasn't an official member of the mafia, he was an important underworld figure, which meant getting close to Richard would require slow, steady progress So Dominic tried to build trust by working with lower level criminals first. Going by the name Dominic Provenzano, he dealt arms to the men who took orders from above Pretty soon, they came to see him as someone trustworthy and reliable. Undercover work, especially in the underbelly, of such a violent environment, There's a lot of psychological pressure It requires Dominiic to live in two realities at once. And it's not just playing pretend, he has to maintain a full identity, relationships, and behavioral pattern that holds up around the clock because he never knows who's watching, who's going to show up, and when he's going to be needed. And he has to remember all the details, stay consistent and respond without any kind of hesitation while being around people who are automatically suspicious of him and are actively testing his loyalty. That's mentally demanding work And that can lead to chronic stress, hypervigilance, reality based paranoia, and fatigue, both mentally and physically. And to do this without blowing your cover, you need good self control and discipline and the ability to stay consistent under all of this immense pressure. You also need to be really highly observant and adaptable And I think most importantly, speaking as someone who hass never done it personally, you need a really strong sense of who your real identity is underneath it all, so you don't run the risk of blurring the lines between the two and losing who you really are at the core After a few months, Dominiic's hard work paid off. One day in nineteen eighty six while hanging out at the store, the phone rang. Someone picked up, then turned to Dominic, who they knew as Dom, and said it was for him Richard was on the other line, and he wanted to speak with Dominiic Dominic played it cool as he took the call, and when Richard asked if they could meet privately, then he said something Dominic had not expected, Richard asked if he knew where to get cyanide Dominic couldn't believe his ears. he immediately knew just how dangerous Richard was becoming. Dominic had to stop him, even if it meant putting his own life on the line Best summer wardrobe consists of pieces you wear on repeat because they're comfortable, versatile, and fit right in anywhere. That's why I love Qins. They produce elevated essentials using premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, and washable silk minus the traditional retail markup. Their one hundred percent European linen collection has become my summer obsession The pieces are so lightweight, effortless to style, and start at just thirty two dollars. 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That's Qui ncE dot com slash murdderous for free shipping and three hundred sixty five day returns quince dot com slash murderous Hi listeners, It's Carter Roy Host of Murder, True Crime Stories I wanted to let you know that Cime House Plus and Murder True crrime stories are celebrating America's two hundred fiftieth by dropping a four part limited series on the crimes that built America crimes and cases that gave us miranda rights criminal profiling murder that built America's missing children movement Follow murder true crime stories for a new episode every Monday, leading up to july fourth Or you can binge all of them right now ad free with Cre House Pus To join, go to crimehouseplus. com or if you're listening on Apple podcasts Try free at the top of the show's page In September of nineteen eighty six, undercover ATF agent Dominiic Polyifrone, who was going by the name Dominiic Provenzano finally got in with Richard Kklinsky Dominiic's goal was pretty straightforward to get close and gather enough hard evidence to link him to the mob and the dozens of murders he was suspected of Dominic knew that wouldn't be easy to arrange to meet at a Dunkin Donuts When Dominiic arrived, he spotted a blue Camaro with a massive man inside reading a newspaper seeeeing Richard up close was something else. Over six feet tall and broad shouldered, the fifty one year old was a hulking presence. Yet he moved with this slow, eerie deliberation. Dominiic even noticed Richard had a surprisingly soft grip when they shook hands Sitting down with coffee and a cinnamon bun, the two cautiously sized each other up. They kept it light at first, talking cars and money, but all the while they were reading each other's tones and body language So he finally gained Richard's trust or at least as much of it as he's likely going to get So let's explore how that might have happened first Dominic built credibility before this meeting ever happened. He worked his way through the ranks, he proved himself as reliable, something that Richard understands. He was also someone that was already validated by the very system that Richard is built into, that he trusts already. And in that environment, reputation is everything. And it's not just about building a reputation, it's about your consistency with that reputation. This meeting is also likely a test to see how Dominiic presents in person. He keeps the conversation light, likely so that Richard can feel in control of the interaction. He's the one who requested this interaction. At the same time, Dominic is also reading Richard and matching his pace That kind of mirroring and restraint is something that's going to garner respect and lower Richard's suspicion. It also helps that Dominiic already understands the rules of this world that they're working in. He doesn't want to impress Richard emotionally. He just needs to gain his trust and keep it by showing that he's practical and useful and predictable And also respects Richard and his position. That goes a long way. And we also know that Richard only cares if someone is functional and low risk, which we outlined heavily in episode one. And Dominic was able to show that he is both functional and low risk through consistency with his pattern of behavior and his reputation, which is why this meeting was able to take place place Do you think he just didn't necessarily trust Dominic, but he just needed help and If so, how might that affect Richard given what we know about his need for dominance and control Yes, and that's very likely because it fits his pattern. It doesn't appear that Richard forms trust in a traditional sense, not in the sense that like all of us listening would. Even with someone like George, his friend that he vouched for with Roy, that we talked about in episode one, vouching for George may have been based on judgment or utility rather than genuine trust. And in terms of how that could affect him, because he tends to engage with people based on what they provide, he's likely going to remain guarded and focused on maintaining control in this interaction And given that he has a need for dominance, relying on others introduces vulnerability for him, and that can create tension. So one way he manages that is by controlling the terms of the relationship. He keeps it transactional. He defines where and when they're going to meet. He sets the pace, and he ensures like he has the ability to retaliate and maintain control if necessary. Finally, during this Dunkin' Donuts meeting, Richard cut to the chase. He asked if Dominic could get cyanide, and not the diluted stuff, but the purest form Dominic maintained his poker face. He knew that Richard wanted to use cyanide to carry out murders. He also knew that if he was asking a complete stranger for help, he must be desperate Still, Dominiic didn't want to appear too eager, otherwise Richard might sniff him out, so he told him he'd do his best. that it wouldn't be easy Richard seemed okay with this, and over the next few weeks, he stayed in touch with Dominiic During this time, the task force that Dominic belonged to tried to figure out how to move forward with the operation and they knew they were trapped in an ugly dilemma. On the one hand, if they gave Richard cyanide, he would most certainly use it But on the other hand, if Dominic stalled for too long, Richard might think he was all talk and cut ties. someomeone suggested bringing in another undercover agent to pose as a cyanide contact. Dominic pushed back immediately. Richard was extremely cautious, so introducing someone new might spook him At the same time, Dominic knew that by refusing help, he was taking a huge personal risk Because if Richard ever did become angry with him, he'd be left with no backup and Richard might try to kill him on the spot Dominic tried not to dwell on this thought the next time he and Richard spoke over the phone. Like always, he kept his composure. And it seemed to put Richard at ease because during that conversation, Richard described how he'd once participated in a man's murder which was carried out with cyanide in a spray bottle Remember, Richard needs to control his interactions with Dominic, and one way of doing that is to set the tone and the pace. Richard isn't disclosing this to be vulnerable. That's the one thing that he works hard to prevent. He's likely doing this to be strategic. He's choosing what to share, when to share it, and how to frame it. That keeps him in control of the interaction. He's killed, according to him, many people by now, but he's specifically disclosing a murder that he committed with cyanide. and he's come to Dominic for cyanide That's not random, that's intentional. It directly aligns with what he's trying to obtain. So by doing that, he positions himself as experienced with cyanide and that shifts the dynamic. He's presenting to Dominiic as someone who already knows what he's doing and just needs the resource. It's also a power move It can be intimidating because it's establishing dominance, which is central for Richard. and it also signals that he's not someone that Dominic should underestimate Some criminals ever get so comfortable with what they're doing that they just seem to forget their potential consequences? They absolutely appear to reach that point, but I don't think it's necessarily that they forget about consequences, but rather that they believe they're immune to them Their overconfidence has led them to believe that they can manage risks or outmaneuver everyone, even law enforcement. And look at Richard, for example. He killed Roy in the middle of a law enforcement investigation. He was already under a microscope But if we think about his first kill from episode one, he killed his childhood bully, Johnny, he was panicked about the potential consequences they never came. And so he has continued to kill without consequences. and that belief has continued to be reinforced. So that is what creates that overconfidence. Dominiic had nearly struck gold. Not only had Richard admitted to a heinous crime, but Dominic had been recording the call. It was a huge break for the authorities However, they knew they'd need more if they wanted to put Richard away for good Since they didn't want to supply him with lethal poison, they took another approach Dominic would pretend to be working on obtaining cyanide all while trying to nab Richard in other deals For example, in October of nineteen eighty six, they met up at the Vince Lombardy Service Area in New Jersey, where Richard sold Dominiic a hit kit, a twenty two caliber pistol fitted with a silencer. But that deal was small compared to what Dominiic had up his sleeve day he told Richard that he had a huge opportunity he wanted to bring him into He said he knew a drug dealer that wanted to sell him about two kilograms of cocaine, which would have been worth about eighty thousand dollars Domink said that he could arrange the sale, but in reality, he and Richard could pull one over on the dealer Dominiic said he was finally close to getting his hands on some cyanide. and once he did that, they could use it to kill the dealer and steal the cocaine, then they could split the eighty thousand dollars The plan was like music to Richard's ears From there, Dominic said he'd put all the pieces into place So Richard prepared for the hit While he looked forward to striking it big, Dominic and his team bracace themselves one of the biggest arrests of their careers. Because if Richard went through with this, he'd be guilty of multiple felonies A few weeks later, they met again to tie up loose ends. Richard was in high spirits as he and Dominic arranged the final details of the hit. He really seemed to believe that they were in cahoots, and so, he started opening up Richard bragged to Dominic about how good he was at evading the law He said he knew how to cover his tracks, and that he'd done it before, Richard confessed that he'd killed a man named Louis Mazke and froze his body before disposing of it Dominic was wearing a wire, and he captured the entire conversation. He remained calm, but on the inside, he was triumphant Richard had just shared a treasure trove of incriminating information That's when Dominic realized the only reason Richard was speaking so freely was because he didn't expect Dominiic to live long enough to rat on him. As soon as their planned hit was complete, Richard was going to kill him Well, I don't think Dominiic was wrong. After this, Dominic's risk is too high, and Richard likes to manage risk. This realization likely wasn't a surprise to Dominic either. It's expected. He's undercover in an environment where violence and betrayal are part of the job and part of his job is to stay ahead of it. So on some level, he's constantly scanning and bracing for that possibility. and he's done his job well because he's recognized when that was most likely going to happen for him But it's one thing to know it in theory that Richard could turn on him at any time and then realize when that time was going to happen. When a threat becomes immediate, even if you've been anticipating it, the body still responds But instead of freezing or panicking or fleeing, someone trained for this can't channel that into controlled behavior. Dominic has to plan ahead and stay one step ahead of Richard while also making sure they can secure an arrest. That's a difficult balance because psychologically, he has to maintain the status quo So he doesn't tip off Richard, he has to still play the role of Dominic Paulafrone, all while managing a very real threat response at the same time Dominic knew exactly what to do next. He and his team would have to revise their plan in order to keep him safe. And on december seventeenth, nineteen eighty six, they set everything in motion ne day, Dominic stood outside the Vince Lombardi service area, holding a white paper bag. Inside, there were three egg sandwiches, along with a vial of fake cyanide Dominic had told Richard they would add the cyanide to the dealer's sandwich. When Richard arrived, he took the bag from Dominiic. From there, the plan was to wait for the dealer to arrive. Dominiic was expecting another undercover agent to play the part But before that could happen, Richard flipped the script. He told Dominic he was going to retrieve a van where they could carry out the murder instead, and that he'd be back in about thirty minutes. Dominic had to play along, so he watched as Richard got into his car and drove off thirirty minutes passed and Richard didn't return Pretty soon, surveillance details spotted Richard at his home in Dumemont, New Jersey, about ten miles from the service area. There was no van in sight. Richard had taken the fake cyanide and made a run for it Even though the poison wasn't real, Richard was armed and investigators knew whatever he planned to do next would be deadly. They had no choice but to chase him down If you've been holding back on launching your dream business, it's time to stop making excuses. Shopify is where you finally go to get started. They offer everything you need to succeed from day one. They completely simplify the process, so you can focus on what matters. Think about how you want your brand to look. Imagine the confidence of launching with a world class checkout system already built into it Allowing your customers to buy effortlessly in just one click Whenever you run into a roadblock or find yourself asking those tough startup questions, Shopify's AI assistant, called Sidekick, is right there to help you build and troubleshoot You get to build your dream on the same reliable platform that powers household names like Mattel saving you time to scale. All you need is the idea. Shopify handles the rest Go to shopify dot com slash Tinderfoot to start your free trial today. that's shopify d. com slash Tinderfoot Shopify. com slash Tinderfoot Did you know that skincare can start in the laundry room? All Free Clear is the number one laundry detergent brand recommended by dermatologists, allergists, and pediatricians for sensitive skin. All Free Clear is one hundred percent free of dyes and perfumes. It provides an effective clean m gentle on skin while removing impurities like dirt and body oil, without leaving irritating residues Plus, all free clear liquid is safeer choice certified by the US EPA. For a clean you can feel good about, all you need is all free clear On the morning of december seventeenth, nineteen eighty six, fifty one year old Richard Kuklinsky met up with undercover federal agent Dominiic Paafron at a service station in New Jersey As far as Richard knew they had plans to poison a drug dealer with cyanide and steal eighty thousand dollars worth of cocaine from him, then split the money Dominic provided the cyanide, which unbeknownst to Richard was fake Richard had no idea the Feds were trying to trap him, and he made plans of his own He had no intention of sticking to his deal with Dominiic. Instead, he took the fake cyanide and tried to make a run for it He drove back to his house, which was about ten miles from the service area and asked his wife, Barbara if she wanted to go out for breakfast. Barbara was surprised, but she agreed. A few minutes later, Richard was driving them down their quiet street they didn't get far because a black van suddenly pulled out in front of them and a group of armed agents jumped out. Richard swerved onto the curb. He reached for the door, about to make a run for it, but he wasn't fast enough. One of the agents had caught up and he had his gun pointed at Richard Richard attempting to make a run for it actually isn't surprising. It fits with his profile. His default response to threat has always been to take action rather than to submit Whenever he has felt his control slipping, he didn't wait to see what would happen. He made moves to regain control immediately. Running is an attempt to take control of the situation, even if it wasn't going to be successful. He may have also believed he could escape given the years he spent avoiding consequences and managing risks successfully But also on a basic level, it's a fight or flight response. but for someone like Richard, flight still looks active and intentional. It's not passive avoidance. It's again, a last attempt to control the outcome After years of controlling every single aspect of his life, what might have happened to Richard psychologically when that control was suddenly gone? Do you think this kind of reaction is more instinctive like fight or flight or is it something calculated? Yeah, control has been central to how he functions and maintains a sense of stability for himself. So this moment had to have been psychologically disorienting for him. I think initially, there was no time to react other than to run. That was instinctive rather than calculated, but someone like Richard is likely going to try and reassert control in whatever ways are still available like how he interacts with investigators, what he chooses to say or not say, and how he chooses to present himself. And given what we know about him, he's likely going to find ways to regain control where he can. and that's probably going to be with the narrative Richard sat frozen as Barbara screamed from where she sat in the passenger seat The agent held his gun to Richard's head as he slowly instructed him out of the car took numerous officers to restrain Richard due to his size. At one point he tried to reach for Barbara, but the officers forced him down to the ground and put him in handcuffs. Once Richard was detained, investigators searched his car and found a twenty five caliber pistol under the driver's seat along with a bag of sandwiches and fake cyanide After eighteen months, the Ice manan was finally under arrest Let's talk about the aftermath of this for Dominic. becausecause he's been working this case undercover for a while After his arrest, there was likely a parasympathetic rebound. That means like he's been living in chronic hyper alertness and chronic stress. That impacts sleep, mood and physical health. And once he's arrested and all of that ends, there can be a lag, meaning he no longer needs to be in that constant threat mode. He doesn't need to be constantly scanning for danger. But the body and the brain haven't fully caught up to that yet. It can take a while for him to readjust and get out of that threat response or threat activation state There's also the process of reintegrating his own identity. He spent an extended period thinking, speaking and acting as someone else while he was undercover and letting go of that and returning to himself can surprisingly take