Investigation and Final Accountability

Mm. Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Before we get into today's episode, I want to tell you about another show I think you'll love. Hidden History with Dr. Harini Bott. Every Monday, Dr. Bot goes where history gets mysterious. Vanished civilizations, doomsday prophecies, paranormal phenomena, and events that science still can't fully explain. Dr. Bot treats these moments like open case files, not myths, not superstition, just incomplete explanations, waiting for a closer look. Hidden History drops every Monday. Follow now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, so you never miss a mystery. This is Crime House. Rumors play a role in all of our lives. We've all heard stories about a co-worker or a friend of a friend. Usually these little bits of gossip are harmless. For most people, the stories fade. We forget about them and move on. But sometimes a rumor can be so monumental and so horrifying that it lives on for centuries. When Elizabeth Bathory went from noble daughter to feared countess, the rumors about her sent a chill through her medieval Hungarian town. Today, her haunting tale lives on, and we're left to wonder, was the blood countess a ruthless killer? Or was someone out to get her? The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crimehouse Original. I'm Vanessa Richardson. And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer. Crime House is made possible by you. Please rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. To enhance your listening experience with ad-free, early access to each two-part series and bonus content, subscribe to Crimehouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. And today, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome back Dr. Harini Bot, the host of Hidden History, the debut show from Pave's new history studio. Rewind. So happy to be back with you two. So glad you're here, and you're welcome to come on anytime. And just like last time, Dr. Bot will introduce today's episode. Then be sure to stick around at the end for an extended conversation between her and Dr. Engels about all things hidden history. Thanks, Vanessa. Before we get started, please be advised that this episode contains discussion of murder. torture and violence to women and children. So please listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Dr. Engels conclude their deep dive into the life of Countess Elizabeth, better known as the Blood Countess. In 16th and 17th century Hungary, Elizabeth everything, land, power, and riches. also hid a dark secret. Thirst for blood left hundreds dead, making Elizabeth one of the most prolific serial killers ever. As Vanessa goes through the story, Dr. Engels will be talking about things like why people in power may kill out of desperation. How that desperation fueled new, gruesome killing methods. impact of widespread rumors and gossip on murder investigations. And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? been cleaning out my closet and simplify my wardrobe, just focusing on pieces that make everyday dressing feel simpler, not more complicated. That's really why Quince has been such an easy brand to keep coming back to. Everything has that clean, minimal look that makes it easy to put outfits together without overthinking it. pieces are designed to be versatile, so they work across a lot of different outfits and situations, which makes building a reliable rotation feel pretty effortless. I've been leaning on their basics a lot because they just remove a lot of the guesswork from getting ready. 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Firens often went off to war, and Elizabeth presided over their land in his absence. However, rumors abounded as to the mysterious and deadly truth of what was happening within the walls of Nadoj Castle. Elizabeth, Ferenc, and a few trusted members of their household staff, a woman named Anna Darvulia, a young man named John, and three other women named Helena, Katerina, and Dorothea, were brutally torturing and killing Countless young girls. These young girls were members of the peasant class who had come to the castle to work, with no idea they were marching straight toward their gruesome deaths. After Elizabet summoned the local priests to remove some of the girls' caskets, the priests became suspicious. because Elizabeth wouldn't allow them to actually view the bodies as was custom. After that, the priests refused to perform burial rites, which put them in a standoff with Elizabeth, who likely knew that if she continued burying bodies in random places like she used to, then she could get caught. Elizabeth racked her brain for a way to get the clergy off her back. Unfortunately for her, they were quicker than she was. They'd set their sights on the one member of Elizabeth's court they despised most. Anna. Anna had taught Elizabeth everything she knew about torture and murder, and while the clergy didn't know that for a fact, they suspected it because Anna was notorious for her dark magic prowess. By Easter of 1602, the priests were thinking of taking drastic action by excommunicating Anna. was a huge punishment, because it meant Anna had no chance of entering heaven. Despite how violent Elizabeth and Ference were, they were also deeply religious. And this was the last thing they wanted for their beloved partner in crime. Someone holding strong religious beliefs while also engaging in extreme violence can seem contradictory, but it's also not a new concept. And there are a few ways to understand it. First, we have to consider the context. In their time, religion was part of daily life and identity and social structure. It wasn't necessarily a reflection of moral alignment. But there are also psychological explanations as well. And one is something we talked about in part one, which is compartmentalization. And I know we do talk about this concept a lot on this podcast, but it is an extremely common psychological mechanism. Case in point, a person can maintain a religious identity in one area of their life while engaging in harmful behavior in another. A woman can be a mother in one aspect of her life and engage in harmful behavior toward children in another. How many cases have you also heard of or covered that involve someone of faith or even a member of the clergy? It's not something new. Another explanation is moral justification. That's framing behavior in a way that reduces internal conflict. They view their actions as necessary or deserved, and in Elizabeth's case this applies because she targets girls she feels are beneath her. So her religious beliefs are don't appear to be applied equally to everyone. Anna also plays a role in maintaining her system of violence. She taught Elizabeth a lot and she's central to how it is carried out and sustained in her household. So when the clergy target Anna It can create instability and threaten Elizabeth's entire structure. And that's where the tension I think was gonna come in here because now an authority that Elizabeth actually recognizes is challenging something that she has relied on to maintain both control and consistency in her micro worlds. take a lot to stop Elizabeth, Ference, and their accomplices from doing what they enjoyed most. Fortunately for them, Ferenc knew exactly how to solve their problem. Donating a large sum of money to the church. After that, the priests dropped the issue completely. It's not clear whether Elizabeth tried to get them to remove more bodies from the castle, but it's possible she decided to keep a safe distance from the clergy from then on. Especially when she lost the only person who could keep her safe from them. Parents himself. About a year earlier, Forents had fallen gravely ill. His health was up and down for the next few years. At one point he was well enough to return to battle. And in doing so, he solidified his reputation as a celebrated war hero. When he returned home in 1604, 48-year-old Ferenc fell ill again. This time he was confined to his bed, and on January 3rd of that year, he died. Elizabeth was devastated. She'd not only lost her husband, but she was now a widow, which was one of the most vulnerable positions for a landowning noblewoman. She was left to defend herself and her castle in the middle of a violent war. In episode one, we talked about Elizabeth's upbringing and how, despite having power and resources, she relied heavily on everyone else to guide her. From a young age, everything was done for her. She was taught what to think, how to act, and how to exert control, but not necessarily how to think on her own or operate without that guidance. That pattern continued with friends. He wasn't just a partner, he was part of her structure. He reinforced her behavior, supported her authority, and played a role in how she was navigating decisions and stability. So when he's gone, she loses that anchor, and now she's expected to function independently by managing a castle. Maintaining the power without him and doing so in the middle of a war. But if she doesn't have the ability to do that confidently, she's going to fall back on what feels familiar and effective. And for Elizabeth, that's control. So rather than adapting in a new way, she's likely to double down on asserting dominance, using anger and violence as a way to manage the uncertainty and regain a sense of stability. In the wake of Ference's death, Elizabeth's bloodthirst seemed to spiral even more out of control. Turn to Anna for emotional support. Unsurprisingly, Anna encouraged Elizabeth to find peace doing what she loved most. And that's exactly what Elizabeth. For the next few years, she went on an all-out spree. She became more violent, not just in her everyday actions, but whenever she needed a pick-me-up. If Elizabeth one of her servants making even the smallest error, a poorly sewn gown or a crooked apron, she would stick them with pins and needles, or even cut their flesh with knives. Once, when a servant girl dared to say she was thirsty, Elizabeth forced her to wade neck deep into frigid cold water. then poured water over her face as she stood there. Elizabeth's behavior is quite erratic in the sense that she doesn't have a standard MO. In her case, her behavior is tied to what it does for her, and based on what you've described, her violence is used as a regulation tool. When she's frustrated, when she's distressed. When she needs a release, she turns to violence. So the specific act may vary, especially in severity, but the purpose is consistent. These different methods are more reflective of escalation, experimentation, or possible habituation, which we discussed in episode one, and the search for the same psychological effect. There may also be elements of displaced anger where relatively minor triggers like a mistake or a request provoke a much more extreme response. The reaction is disproportionate to the situation because it's tied to something bigger internally. This explains why she's not doing it in the same ritualized fashion that she was previously as well. Also, you do see parallels in more modern cases where serial offenders describe violence as relieving tension or providing a sense of control or stimulation. Violence serves a purpose for Elizabeth, and that's what keeps it going. No one was safe from Elizabeth's fury, and that rage was the only thing distracting her from the loss of her husband. All Elizabet wanted to do was make her servants suffer and watch the life drain from their eyes. At the same time, she was aware that villagers were still whispering about her, and the clergy was still onto her. So in order to gain a little privacy, Elizabeth and her inner circle traveled to one of her other estates, which was located in Vienna. Once there, she kicked her killing spree up a notch, but she quickly realized that the sound of her victim's screams were so loud they could be heard by monks living across the street. Desperate to kill with impunity, Elizabeth relocated again. She went back to Hungary, but instead of returning to the Nadojdi estate, she moved permanently into another estate. Castle Cheda. and this castle became the execution block for many unsuspecting and innocent victims. It's said that the majority of Elizabeth's tortures and murders occurred inside or around Castle Cheta, but even though nobody there was onto her yet, Elizabeth's position in society was in jeopardy. She was almost 50 years old, and without her war hero husband to protect their lands, political rivals were circling. She had to find a way to protect what was hers. And soon, she had an idea. All it would take was a little blood. There's never been a better time to get outside and experience the benefits of nature. Disc nearby trails and explore the outdoors with all trails. Download the free app today and find your outside. Whether you're firing up the grill at a local bistro or uploading your next viral video, There is one thing every business owner has in common. 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In the early 1600s, Elizabet Bathory was left widowed and unprotected from her family's political rivals. She moved into Castle Cheda, where she set up a new torture chamber and a new revolving door of unsuspecting victims. But no matter how many young girls she tortured and killed, Elizabeth couldn't outrun her political problems. Beyond hoping for the king's protection, there wasn't much Elizabeth could do if another noble family decid they wanted to move against her. One option was to get married and find shelter that way. The only problem was she wasn't exactly a great marriage candidate. She was getting older, past childbearing age. As time passed, Elizabeth started to feel more desperate, like she had nothing to hold on to, and that caused her to unleash violence like never before. According to some rumors, if her servants didn't complete their needlework well enough, Elizabeth would send them to the torture chamber within the castle. There, Elizabeth and members of her inner circle would stick the girls with needles burn them with fire irons and leave them beaten and maimed. Sometimes they kept the girls alive for days in their battered states, only to watch them starve to death. Now we're seeing a shift back towards something more structured, controlled, and intentional, which coincides with her moving around and finding a more private estate to do this in. She has the time and the privacy now. And keeping her victims alive after severely injur is prolonging the process, which allows her to maintain control over it. That serves multiple functions. One is the extension of her dominance. She's controlling how the harm happens. And two, she gains gratification from observing the suffering of others. And that may connect back to her childhood and that early exposure. She repeatedly witnessed suffering back then, especially because it was tied to power, that can create a learned association where the observation itself becomes meaningful or reinforcing to her. At the same time, this reflects desensitization and escalation, because prolonging the experience can intensify it for her. behavior is becoming so much more deliberate, more sustained, and so much more tied to control and reinforcement than it has in the past. By 1607, it was estimated that her list of victims had already reached 200. And now that Elizabeth had moved to Castle Cheda, she had plenty of new burial ground, including the local cemetery, gardens, drainage ditches, grain bins, and fruit pits. It was the most alive she'd felt since her husband died, but there was still one problem. No amount of torture and murder could turn back time. Apparently around this time, Elizabet became obsessed with her appearance and was known to go into fits of rage where she would smash all the mirrors in the castle. Well, unfortunately for Elizabeth, the one thing she cannot control, no matter how endless her resources are, is the natural process of aging. She's fifty years old, widowed, and vulnerable to political rivals, and because of her age and her inability to bear children, remarrying is unlikely, like you mentioned, and she knows this. So her avenues for protection, for political stability and security of her estate are very limited right now. And I think this reaction reflects that. It's about control, status, and survival. Seeing herself aging. likely represents a loss in all of those areas. And unlike people or her environment, it's something she can't dominate. Or reshape for someone who relies so much on controlling everything, that's a very threatening limitation for her. And that explains this reaction. I don't think it's about vanity at all. Soon, Elizabeth that what she loved most, torture and violence, could be the solution to her problem. Most likely Anna was the one who gave Elizabeth the idea to bathe in the blood of virgins in order to preserve her own youth. For a long time, Elizabeth had already been using chicken blood to cast spells against her family's war enemies. Now, according to rumor, she started draining her victim's blood to keep herself young. By doing so, she earned the nickname The Blood Countess, because apparently, even though Elizabeth had reached a new level of brutality, she also wasn't shy about what she was doing. According to one account, Elizabet started attacking her servants in front of household staff members who weren't part of her inner circle. In one instance, a man named Benedict walked in while Elizabeth was berating a young girl for making a sewing mistake. Benedict had worked for Elizabeth back at Nadoj Castle. Now he was in charge of security at Castle Cheda. When he entered the room and saw what was happening, he knew that he wasn't supposed to be in there. The girl looked terrified. Not only that, but he recognized her and knew who her parents were. He had no desire to be present for whatever was about to happen, but before Benedict could leave the room, Elizabeth told him to stay, and he had no choice but to obey her. Benedict watched as Elizabeth pulled out a dagger and proceeded to stab each one of the girl's fingers. And she kept going from there, stabbing her in the hands, arms, chest, and back. Soon, the girl was lying on the floor, barely conscious. And that's when Elizabeth held a lid candle to her hands. Burned them until they were black. The girl's injuries were completely beyond repair, and eventually she died. right before Benedict's eyes. There are a number of reasons why Elizabeth might have allowed Benedict to witness this horrific scene. And one is a belief in her own immunity to consequences. In that time period. There were far fewer constraints on someone like her. Power was concentrated, and intervention from authority figures like the king, for example, was rare unless something became significant enough to demand the king's attention. So over time she may have come to expect that she would not be challenged. And we talked about how her behavior has reduced the likelihood of anyone doing that to begin with. Another reason is that this has become so normal that And so routine for her that she blurred her boundaries entirely. She may no longer actually feel she needs to hide anything that she's doing, especially after so many years without any consequences. She also could have become disinhibit, meaning she is now back into reactionary violence again, rather than contained and controlled violence, and that would mean that she's struggling to regulate and her rational thinking is narrowed. But there's also again that power component. Having someone witness this, whether they're part of her inner circle or not, reinforces her sense of dominance. It communicates to others what she's capable of, what her expectations are of them, and what They're required to tolerate if they're going to be in her household. Do you think it's possible that she took some kind of twisted pride in her new reputation as the blood countess. Given that she is back to using violence in this less structured and more reactionary way, I think that it's more likely than not that she was desperate for this new ritual to work. As the blood countess, she's required to bathe in the blood of children. When you try and picture that, which I know is a really horrific thing to even want to picture to begin with. That requires a large supply of blood and she probably requires it frequently. And in that sense, it seems like this is really more out of desperation than pride, if anything, especially when you consider why she started this ritual in the first place and what's actually driving her desire to do this. to begin with. It's not clear Benedict actually witnessed Elizabet drain the girl's blood, but he wasn't the only one who'd witnessed incidents like this, and many staff members had come to believe she was bathing in blood regularly. If that was true, it seemed like Elizabeth was happy with this ritual. But if her desire for beauty was at all motivated by a need to remarry, it didn't happen. And then by 1609, Elizabet stopped noticing the age-reversing effects of her literal bloodbaths. She needed to find a new way to appear young and powerful. Soon, she found a way, and it would involve her darkest deed yet. You're a pro at running your life, at committing to your workout, at showing up every day. At Bombus, we're pros too. Pros at making socks. 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Are you interested in the mysterious parts of history, like when in 1518 an entire European city couldn't stop dancing, or in 1908 when something flattened over 800 square miles of Siberian forest? In an instant. I'm excited to tell you about a new show, Hidden History with Dr. Harini Bott. Dr. Bott has spent her entire career demanding evidence and asking why. Now every Monday on Hidden History, she goes where history touches the unknown, vanished civilizations, doomsday prophecies, paranormal phenomena, and events that science still can't fulfill. Dr. Bott treats these moments like open case files, not myths, not superstition, just incomplete explanations, waiting for a closer look. At the end of every episode, she'll tell you exactly what she thinks and ask, what if it happened today? Hidden History drops every Monday. Follow now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, so you never miss a mystery. By 1609, 49-year-old Countess Elizabet Bathory had killed an estimated 200 of her own servants. Each victim was a young girl who belonged to Hungary's peasant class. For most of her life, Elizabeth killed and tortured these girls for sheer enjoyment. But over the last couple of years, she'd allegedly been doing it so she could drain their blood and bathe in it. According to Elizabeth dark magic beliefs, this ritual would keep her young, and Elizabeth was in desperate need of her youth, because as an older widow, her country's rivals were coming after her. For a while, she'd believed the bloodbaths were working, but recently it seemed like the effects were wearing off. Elizabeth a new solution to her beauty problem. Normally she would have turned to her longtime friend and mentor in all things dark and evil, Anna Darvulia, but she couldn't do that, because that year Anna suffered a serious stroke and died. Again, some of this builds on what we've already discussed about Elizabeth's dependents on others for structure and guidance, but here it becomes more acute. We've seen how Elizabeth reacted when she lost a functional anchor in her life when her husband died. She didn't necessarily adapt by becoming more independent. Instead it seemed to destabilize her emotionally. But losing Anna is slightly different because she's tied directly to a belief system that's rooted in her need for control. So Anna's death likely created more uncertainty about that ritual's effectiveness, especially in the absence of the fact that she has no proof that it's been working. doesn't exist. There isn't g there's not gonna be any proof of that. And that will increase urgency for Elizabeth. And emotionally that may not present as grief in a typical sense for her. And given her history, it's more likely that it's gonna show up as agitation, frustration, or escalation. It's likely going to intensify her behavior the more she realizes how little control she really has and And how there are very few in her circle that are left to guide her, or conversely, project the blame on. So she's likely going to try and seek guidance elsewhere if she can, if there's even an avenue for that. And she's likely going to become more reactionary just based on what we know about her past behavior, because Historical behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. So Elizabeth seems obsessed with control and strokes are pretty sudden. How do you think that element of surprise may have affected her? I think it's really going to amplify the flaws in her dark ritualistic belief system that she's operating in. Because no matter what ritual she practices, that's going to reverse or halt aging in her mind, she cannot stop nature from taking its course. She can try to alter her external appearance in different ways, but internally. She has absolutely no control over that. Her body can fail at any moment, the same way it did for Anna, her mentor. And that's significant because Anna was the one who guided her and assured her in the first place that she could control the aging process, that this ritual would do. it was intended to do. So her sudden death becomes a very real contradiction to everything that Elizabeth has been really relying on and was led to believe from her. It exposes that belief system and that's threatening because it means that Elizabeth is vulnerable and that some things are simply beyond her control. And Elizabeth is not someone who would be willing to accept that openly. Elizabeth definitely must have felt like she was losing everything. In the wake of Anna's death, she seemingly spiraled into anger and panic. So you are absolutely right. She was more terrified of aging than ever before, and she needed guidance. Once again, According to the legend, Elizabet turned to black magic. She started meeting with a forest witch who would perform spells for her, and it was this witch who gave the countess a new idea. blood of the peasantry wasn't going to be strong enough to work as an anti-aging potion. What the countess really needed was noble blood. So Elizabeth employed her four remaining confidants, John, Helena, Katerina, and Dorothea, to start looking for girls from more well-to-do families. To do this, they had to search well beyond the town of Cheda. Part of this had to do with Elizabeth's growing reputation as a violent, bloodthirsty ruler. But it also didn't help that the population of young available girls was drying up. Elizabeth had already killed so many of them. So the servants searched well beyond that town, going as far as Vienna to seek out aristocratic families who hadn't heard all the rumors about her. Once they found them, the group would sell the families on a lie. tell parents that their girls or sisters would be sent to a finishing school where they would learn from one of the great noble women in Europe. Elizabeth is once again defaulting to her status for credibility. Nobility carries assumed trust. So parents are more likely to believe her because of who she is, not because of what she's promising. And as we discussed in episode one, this arrangement is actually a very plausible one. Daughters of noble families were educated through governesses or they were often sent to other aristocratic households to learn etiquette or language and social conduct. That's how Elizabeth was raised. So she understands the system the same way she did with the priests, and more importantly, she knows how to exploit it. That's what makes this so predatory. She's taking something familiar and she's weaponizing it. That is instrumental calculated deception. She's leveraging her identity and her knowledge of social structures to gain access and reduce suspicion. And this is a very serious escalation because she's targeting families of higher status, which is very significant and a very risky shift. Because it suggests a deeper level of moral disengagement. can we glean from the fact that she's willing to try and trick people who, in her eyes, are just as smart and capable as she is and are on her level? think it signals her overconfidence and it again a a shift in risk tolerance. But more importantly, it goes back to that desperation that I was talking about. She's operating under pressure because she believes that this is necessary for her own survival. And she's exhausted her initial victim selection pool, and there are no available peasant girls any longer because of her, which is just truly. Horrible to imagine. But it's her sense of power that allows her to believe that she can actually act on this and target elite children in the first place, and then actually get away with it. I don't think she's actually thinking beyond this. Elizabeth was taking a huge risk by going after wealthier families, and the risk paid off. The idea was attractive enough for several families who happily sent their daughters and sisters to Countess Bathory's castle. Little did they know, they were really sending the girls to their graves. Between 1609 and 1610, Elizabeth ran this so-called school as a new kind of torture chamber out of Castle Cheda. Girls were shackled together and beaten savagely, and Elizabet barely tried to hide what was happening. Townspeople regularly saw the countess in the company of young girls whose faces were bruised and disfigured. Things were even worse inside the school. One witness claimed to have seen girls strung up and hanging from the ceiling by their hair. Benedict, the head of security who'd watched Elizabet stab and burn a girl to death, saw countless other incidents where girls had their mouths forced shut with needles. or had their hands beaten to a pulp with a hammer. Bodies continued to pile up, and rumors spread far and wide. Other members of the castle staff, local grave diggers, and regular townspeople all knew that going to the school was a death sentence. Despite her decision to go after rich victims, the countess wasn't worried about appearances. Violence was becoming increasingly brazen. There was just one problem with her new plan. Normally, the gossip about her behavior might not have been that big of a problem for Elizabeth. After all, she'd been torturing and killing girls for decades by this point. This wasn't gossip anymore. Unlike peasant families, the parents of these rich girls were able to do something if their loved ones went missing. And some of them traveled to Cheda to try and figure out what was going on. When they came to the castle demanding to see their children, Elizabeth sent the girls out in hopes that this would calm their concerns. But it did the opposite. The girls would emerge from the school visibly weak and battered, barely able to stand up or speak. Parents were horrified and demanded that something be done to stop this evil, sadistic countess. These complaints traveled up the chain of local government, and eventually they reached the King of Hungary himself. When the king heard about noble girls being tortured and killed, He declared that Elizabet Bathory had to be convicted at once. And so, on December 29, 1610, George Torzo, the Viceroy of Hungary, stormed into Elizabeth Bathory's home. He and his men detained her and the four accomplices who'd been helping her carry out the killings. The accomplices were themselves tortured and ultimately confessed to their crimes. And during the court investigation that followed, over 300 people, including the accomplices, other staff members, and even some townspeople, testified about the horrific things they'd seen. Based on these testimonies, the court believed Elizabeth was responsible for at least 80 deaths. They also thought that number could be as high as 600. It's unfortunate that it took the targeting of noble families for any authority to intervene, but at least at long last Elizabeth is being held accountable. And for someone who has never had to answer to anyone until this point, and who has conditioned all of those in her orbit not to question or challenge her, was also taught that violence is a normal way of maintaining control, this moment is going to produce several different reactions out of her. And the first is likely going to be shock and disbelief. Protection that she's relied on through her birthright and her belief system is no longer holding up for her. And that's gonna lead to defensiveness or denial, especially if her identity is being threatened. So for decades she's been the ultimate authority in her household and in her system. And now she's being detained, questioned, and accused by someone with greater authority and in a way that she can't control. And importantly, it's happening in front of others. That's exposure and that's threatening. The same environment that she once controlled is now witnessing her loss of power in real time, and they're even turning against her. In this moment, Elizabeth is losing all control that she thought she had. Nowadays, is torture considered a valid interrogation strategy? Or do you think it's more likely that people will say anything to stop their suffering? We know that Elizabeth's story is highly debated. I mean it's been so long, so do you think it's possible her four accomplices provided False confessions? Firstly, torture is not at all considered a valid or reliable interrogation strategy. Research has been very clear about this. The concern about torture is exactly what you raised. Humans are wired for survival. When someone is in extreme pain or distress, their primary goal becomes ending the suffering, ending that. Not necessarily telling the truth. People are going to say whatever it is to end the suffering, and that can increase the risk of false or distorted confessions. And that makes any information that is obtained under those conditions not. Reliable. So most interrogations now involve building rapport first because those conditions produce more reliable confessions. That said, because of what research tells us, her accomplices could have also provided false confessions. That doesn't mean everything they said was false, but it does mean we can't assume that their confessions were fully accurate or voluntary either. What does matter though is how that information is evaluated. When you look at their statements alongside other data like the phys injuries that were observed on the victims, their own personal accounts, the victims specifically, reports of the missing girls, Elizabeth's pattern of behavior over the years and the concerns from the victims' families trying to reach their children, you see areas of overlap, and to me that's where it becomes more informative. As a forensic psychologist, collateral information is never treated as fact on its own. It's treated as data, something to be weighed and compared against all these other sources of information. And in those cases when the statement or the self report aligns with other evidence that we have, other documents, it can contribute to a more supported understanding of the full clinical picture. So we look at the like we try to weigh everything out. in one. According to Elizabeth, none of it was true. In fact, she had a much different story to explain all the deaths. Elizabeth claimed that one of her students had killed all the others in order to steal their jewelry, and then took her own life when the staff members learned what she'd done. Unfortunately for Elizabeth, no one bought it. She and her accomplices were ultimately charged with the murder of 80 victims. accomplices were tortured for their crimes, and in the end, they were sentenced to execution. The same couldn't be said for Countess Bathory. Elizabeth didn't receive any prison time. Instead, she was basically put under house arrest, destined to live out the remainder of her life at Chayda Castle, which she did peacefully until she fell ill and died in 1614 at the age of 54. After Elizabeth, she was reportedly buried in the castle's church. which the local villagers were not happy about. There was such an uproar over it, Elizabeth's remains were supposedly moved to her hometown. But Elizabeth's story didn't end with her death. Today, there are countless ghost stories about the blood countess, from her apparition appearing in the castle ruins to people hearing the horrible screams of her victims, to supposed curses, and even a rum of a vampire. The legends surrounding Elizabeth aren't just related to the supernatural. Many people today believe that none of her alleged crimes actually occurred, and that it was all made up by her political rivals. According to some, Elizabeth's finishing school was exactly that. She provided young girls an education who otherwise wouldn't have had access to one. Whatever the truth is, one thing's for certain. Elizabeth Bathory's reign struck terror into the hearts of those who crossed her. And in the end? tail continues to haunt. and mystify us. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer. But first, check out this extended conversation between Dr. Engels and Dr. Harini Bott, and be sure to stick around after for a special preview of Hidden History. Dr. Bot, I'm so excited for you to join us. Like I said at the beginning of episode one, we can always use more doctors here at Paved Studios. And before we dive into hidden history, I would love to talk to you about your background some more and the approach that you're taking to this show. I've been so happy to speak with both of you. And yeah, let's talk a little bit about my background. So I have my doctorate in pharmacy and I did a further specialization fellowship in oncology, hematology. So this was not my career that I ever thought I was gonna do. Uh, this is a second life in many ways. When Covid started, I started posting science videos and as the story goes, the rest is history, pun intended. Um but I've always loved as much as I love science, I equally love history and Honestly, I think a lot of people think science is boring and rigid because there is no context. And the context is really the history or the story behind the science. Otherwise it's just a list of facts. So that's really what I decided to do with my other channel today I learned science. where I really talk about science, but the history and the story behind it. Because science, as you probably know, Dr. Engels, is dramatic. It's exciting. It's thrilling, just like anything else, like a Netflix series. So I really want to make sure that science is as interesting, but there's always like That history behind it. So that's why I'm doing hidden history. It is diving deep into those stories that I can't really do in short form and really going into all the theories, all the unexplained, all the unanswered questions with that science through line throughout. And when we're diving back into history with a scientific lens that we have now, knowing what we have now that didn't apply back then, it's so interesting because especially with this case, right? This is we're talking about 1500s in Hungary. There's a lot of things that they didn't know about back then that when you're looking at it from a lens now that we can apply. And when there's a lot of supernatural or paranormal aspects to that. Do you use that to kind of challenge some conspiracies, maybe, or bring a little bit more of reality testing to some of those theories that people have brought forward? Is that what you bring to your podcast? Absolutely. And I think that's what makes it so fun is we don't want to, you know disregard the myths, like say like the Lochness monster, for example. I think that's part of the fun is the mythology, but what makes it more enriching is viewing it from a 2026 lens and saying like, hey, yes, there might be this myth or these theories about a Lochness monster, but actually the reason why they think there is a Lochness Monster is a lot of the science behind that lake. And that to me is even more fascinating. Absolutely. I think the same applies for me too. When we look at historical cases from so long ago where there's a lot of socioeconomic s things that apply or a sociological or psychological aspects that apply that were not widely understood back then that we can look at from a lens now. that is a very uh clinically fascinating thing for me to apply in today's world to cases that we you know existed way back then. And I really love doing that in cases like Elizabeth Bathory's case, for example. I love that about your podcast. Now let's talk about hidden history a bit more, speaking of your podcast. What really stands out to me is how you do that, how you approach history with that scientific touch, and looking at evidence with such an open mind and every and following every path until you can make a determination like that. Yeah, and that's something that was really surprising to me, especially when you're dealing with historical mysteries like I do on my show. It's important to keep an open mind, especially when you encounter a scientific explanation. It's so important to really look at it with a critical eye. Speaking of, I'd actually love to get your thoughts on this because in our very first episode, we deal with potential mass hysteria or mass psychogenic illness. Now, some spoilers ahead, but here's the background, and again, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. us all about the dancing plague of 1518, that year in the European city of Stralsburg, a woman stepped out of her house, started dancing, And couldn't stop. Before long, people all over the city had joined her, and some of them, the only thing that could stop them was death. After a month or two of this going on, it finally stopped after the city conducted a ceremony in the name of St. Vetus. From what you know about MPIs, does that sound like it would fit the bill? Ooh, this is really fascinating. I have actually never heard of this case before, which is why I love your podcast so much, because this is the just like we talked about. We get to apply a modern day lens to a very historical case. And I'm so glad we're talking about this. So let's walk through. Mass psychogenic illness or MPI typically involves the rapid spread of symptoms through a group, especially in high stress environments without any clear medical cause. The symptoms are very real, and they're driven by psychological and social factors, but not medical ones, not like a toxin or a disease. And by the sound of it, a lot of those elements certainly line up. You described a sudden onset by this woman that spread throughout the community, and then a shared behavior that escalated as more people joined in. The environment is very important to consider too. In that era, people struggled with famine and disease, and that is definitely a high stress environment where MPI is more likely to occur than not. But you said this lasted, what, about a month or two? Most cases of MPI that we've studied don't typically involve something that's that prolonged or that severe. Statistically, they last a matter of hours to days, and in very rare instances or very rare cases, a few weeks, especially if it's socially reinforced, which this actually seems to be the case. Typical symptoms though of MPI are dizziness. Fainting, shaking, and nausea, not dancing, and not to the point of collapse or death. That is very atypical from what we know about MPI. So that also doesn't quite fit. So that makes me think Was there some kind of toxin or disease that might have caused this? Because those were widespread back then. But What known diseases or toxins whose only symptom is uncontrolled dancing? Do you know of any? I mean, to my knowledge, I don't I'm not a medical doctor, but do you? Yeah. I mean this we go into this in the episode, but one of them one of the theories that it's ergot poisoning from that's local, isn't it? Yeah. Okay. Mm-hmm. But I think that's really interesting, like giving more context to the MPIs. I didn't think about the environmental factor. They were probably under a lot of stress. So it I wonder if it's a combination of factors. It could be. MPI explains, and this is why the open mind part you were talking about is so important because this was very real. And we don't want to take that away, right? It ha it happened. It was very real for the people involved. And that's why that open mind and that critical mind are very important to hold together. 'Cause all that to say, MPI explains. how this behavior could have spread. But it doesn't necessarily explain why it started or why it was so extreme and why it was so long. And because of that, it makes me think that in addition, there might have been something cultural. that was driving this like I don't know if it was maybe a religious or a spiritual belief. It feels reminiscent to something called social contagion. where one person's behavior or symptoms appear and then others begin to exhibit similar ones because their mind and body are responding to that shared social context. And that's especially true in close knit communities. And especially if they're under stress, like it was back then. And then Especially if there's shared cultural belief in in cultural belief systems. And that reminds me of something like the Salem witch trials. All that to say, I think it partially explains it, but I don't think it's a full picture, and I think it's more than likely Combination of things. So fascinating. Thank you for that insight. I'd love to have you on the show sometimes. I'd love to be on the show. It sounds so fun. Just say the word. And Dr. Bot, thanks again so much for joining Vanessa and me. For anyone who hasn't checked out Hidden History yet, can you tell them where to find it? course, you can check out new episodes every Monday on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and on YouTube at Hidden History Pod. Follow, subscribe so you don't miss a moment. Amazing. I'm already such a huge fan and looking forward to many more amazing conversations. And thanks to all of you for listening. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. And don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcast. Your feedback truly does make a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crimehouse Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad free, along with early access to each thrilling. Part Series and exciting bonus content. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels, and is a Crimehouse original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertowsky, Alyssa Fox, Sarah Bachelor, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. And stick around, we've got a sneak peek of hidden history just for you. When it comes to mass psychogenic illness, there's not much you can do to protect yourself. Your mind and body weaponize your own belief against you. Blurring the line between fiction and reality until a perceived threat is made very real. And once you in its grip. There's no letting go.