Trial Sentencing and Final Reflections

Mm. Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Before we get into today's episode, I want to tell you about another show I think you'll love. Hidden History with Dr. Harini Bott. Every Monday, Dr. Bot goes where history gets mysterious. Vanished civilizations, doomsday prophecies, paranormal phenomena, and events that science still can't fully explain. Dr. Bot treats these moments like open case files, not myths, not superstition, just incomplete explanations, waiting for a closer look. Hidden History drops every Monday. Follow now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, so you never miss a mystery. This is Crime House. Self-confidence plays a huge role in all of our lives. Whether it's career goals or personal aspirations, we need a healthy dose of confidence in order to achieve anything. However, some people's confidence can go too far. Maybe they think they're too good for others, or they don't realize when they're not as good at something as they think they are. And in other cases, overconfidence causes people to do horrifying things without a second thought. John Norman Collins had that kind of confidence. whether he was breaking into homes or brutally taking someone's life. John believed he could do whatever he wanted with impunity. But John was his own worst enemy. and his hubris would be his downfall. because all it took was one wrong move for his gruesome crimes to come to light. The human mind is powerful. It shapes, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crimehouse Original. I'm Vanessa Richardson, and today Dr. Engels and I are joined again by Katie Ring. Host of the Crime House original America's Most Infamous Crimes. Hi again, so excited to be back. Honestly, Katie, join us anytime. And for anyone listening, if you didn't follow and subscribe to America's Most Infamous Crimes after our last episode, make sure to do it now. Remember you can find it audio only on podcasting platforms and with video on YouTube. Definitely subscribe. And just like last time, Katie will introduce today's episode. And be sure to stick around at the end as we sit down for an extended discussion on today's case. Thanks, Vanessa. Before we get started, please be advised that this episode contains discussion of explicit sexual violence against women and minors. So please listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Dr. Angles conclude their deep dive into the mind of John Norman Collins, aka the Ipsilanti River, a seemingly ordinary college student who became one of the most feared serial killers in Michigan history. After suffering a troubled childhood, John used his wholesome all-American persona to get ahead, and once he'd earned the trust of everyone around him, he used it to hide in plain sight, while he hunted down innocent young women and girls. As Vanessa goes through the story, Dr. Engels will be talking about things like why some violent offenders insert themselves into investigations, why they reveal information that could shed light on their guilt before they've been caught, and how past trauma can fester and serve as the driving force behind some killers' rage. And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killer? If you've tried to lose weight before, you know how frustrating it can be to feel like nothing really sticks. The cycle of starting over again and again can get exhausting. That's why weight loss by HERS is designed to offer a more sustainable approach, with access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP1 medications, including the Wagovy pill and the Wagovy Pen. Wagove through hers, you can lose up to 20% or more of your body weight when combined with diet and exercise. It works by helping regulate your appetite so you can eat less and maintain progress over time. 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Quince.com slash murderous By the fall of 1968, 21-year-old John Norman Collins had allegedly killed 19-year-old Mary Flezar and 20-year-old Joan Shell. Both women were students at Eastern Michigan University, just like John. He'd seen both of them around before he attacked them, one year apart. John sexually assaulted and brutally stabbed both of his victims. And after disposing of their bodies, he likely went back to move them so they'd be found faster. John enjoyed the thrill of causing widespread fear, all while flying under the radar. Even though he was questioned as a suspect in Jones' murder, the police didn't even bother to check his alibi, possibly because his uncle worked for the state police, which meant authorities were struggling to figure out who had killed Mary and Joan. Detectives in Ipsalanti and Ann Arbor, where Joan's body had been found, had formed a task force and were on high alert. The Ann Arbor police chief even stated publicly that there was a psycho killer on the loose. Female students at EMU were living in fear. They walked around campus in groups or with trusted male friends. and John loved witnessing all the chaos he'd created. At the same time, he knew he had to lay low before striking again. He wouldn't wait forever. Eight months after allegedly killing Joan, he was ready to strike again. This time, he reportedly set his sights on someone with a different profile from his past victims. Marilyn Skelton did not attend EMU. In fact, she was only 16 years old. but she had friends at EMU and often hung out with them where they lived off campus, including an apartment complex where some of John's friends lived. Most likely, John noticed Marilyn while spending time there. It's unclear how John got Marilyn alone, but on March 22, 1969, she had plans to meet up with a friend and failed to show up. So her boyfriend quickly her missing. Shortly after, things took a dark turn. The day after Marilyn's boyfriend contacted police, her parents received a phone call. An unfamiliar male voice told them they would find Marilyn, quote, laid out somewhere with bullets in her head. Marilyn was younger, but she still fits a pattern. She was someone that he had observed. Someone within his environment and again someone who had a boyfriend. Consistency is notable, but so is the phone call if it in fact was him. Calling her parents allows him to remain psychologically engaged in the crime, similar to what we saw with Mary, but this is also a psychological escalation. It crosses significant boundaries and reinserts him directly into her family. That suggests that he is focused on the emotional impact that this crime had on her family, and given that he is already deriving excitement from the fear that is growing on campus because of his crimes, this fits his pattern. It also reinforces his need for control, but more than that authorship. He's now shaping how his crime is experienced, how it unfolds, and how it's communicated. And that reflects an increase in both risk taking and confidence. And as we discussed with each successful offense, that confidence gets reinforced, and this is a direct result of that. In general, why do violent offenders sometimes try to get close to investigations, like by making contact with victims' family members, like in this case with John? police or anyone else involved. Why does that happen? It's not much different than what we're seeing here with John. In general, it's a continued psychological investment in the crime. They want to remain connected to what they've done and why that is can vary. Most often it's about control. In other cases, it's about reliving the event, especially for offenders who keep trophies or souvenirs. That proximity allows them to re-experience the intensity, the emotions, and the sense of power that was tied to the act itself. There's also a clear risk-taking component. Reinserting themselves increases the chance of being caught, but for some, that risk becomes part of the appeal, especially if it's previously gone undetected. And for others, it's about recognition and authorship. It's also about shaping the narrative and maintaining a sense of control over how the crime is experienced by others. like the zodiac killer, for example. And it can also be a combination of these things. John was trying to scare Marilyn's loved ones. It worked. They fear she was the killer's next victim, and on March 25th, they were met with the tragic reality. day a construction worker found Marilyn's body at a building site less than a quarter mile from where Joan Shell's body had been found. However, it didn't appear that the killer had come back to move Marilyn's body. like he had with his previous victims, but the level of violence was the same. When the police analyzed Marilyn's body, they discovered that a shirt had been shoved into her mouth and a belt was wound tightly around her neck. She'd been so badly beaten, her skull was crushed. Authorities weren't surprised by the brutality. After all, it matched what the first two victims had suffered but they were surprised when Marilyn's autopsy results showed that she'd been on her period when she died. just like Mary and Joan. It seemed like a pattern they couldn't brush off as a coincidence. Pretty soon they learned something else shocking. When the news broke, a local restaurant owner told police he'd seen Marilyn at his establishment on March 23rd, just one day after she was reported missing. time the owner hadn't recognized her, so he didn't have any reason to be suspicious when she pulled into the drive-thru to order four hamburgers. The restaurant owner couldn't recall whether Marilyn was alone at the time. But now the task force realized that the killer was probably acquainted with each of his victims. which was how he was able to lure them in. Still, investigators weren't any closer to zeroing in on John, partly because there wasn't much evidence left at each scene. And while police considered other suspects, nothing panned. Pressure to solve the case was building. So the authorities announced a $20,000 reward for information. Even though they received some tips, none of them pointed to John, and he knew it. If anything, he was emboldened, so he started finding new ways to enjoy all the terror. John started talking to his friends and co-workers about the gruesome details in the papers. Even though some people were bothered by it, John seemed to be doing the same thing as many others at the time, fixating on each story out of fear or morbid curiosity. Sometimes he'd take it a step further. John would mention other gory details he claimed hadn't been released to the public, saying he'd learned about it through his uncle, who worked in law enforcement. This is controlled behavioral leakage, meaning he's sharing accurate, non-public details about his own behavior, but pairing them with a plausible cover story that gives him deniability, and that's his uncle. That suggests that he's aware of the risk. And he's actively managing it. But the question is, why even do that at all? And again, that ties back to his need for involvement. Sharing those details allows him to remain psychologically engaged in the crime, which is a pattern we've already seen and we talked about at length in episode one. He's not just observing reactions of people anymore, though. He's now trying to elicit the reactions himself. It started with calling Marilyn's parents and now this. And because the information that he's giving is new and disturbing, That likely adds to the thrill. It also fits with that reinforcement cycle. The need for stimulation increases when it doesn't produce the same effect, and to get that, the behavior needs to evolve. John is seeking new ways to get that same intensity in control. And also once again, he's boundary testing. He's gauging how close he can get to the truth without raising suspicion, which keeps building confidence in his ability to deceive others and avoid detection. John show no fear of getting caught, and in April of 1969, less than a month after Marilyn's death, he sought out his next suspected victim. This time someone even younger. 13-year-old Dawn Basom was a local middle school student. She lived across the street from a girl used to date. Around 7 p.m. on April 14th, Dawn was walking home from a friend's house who lived about a mile away from her. As she walked along some railroad tracks, John approached her, and somehow he got her into his car. Then he drove to an abandoned farmhouse nearby. When they got there, Dawn realized she was in serious danger and fought to get away. And at one point she did. John quickly caught up and overpowered. Then he removed her clothes, strangled her with an electrical wire. gagged her with a piece of cloth, and stabbed her multiple times. She was not sexually assaulted. The fact that he did not sexually assault Dawn Illustrates that sexual assault is often not about sex, it's about power, control, and dominance, which is the pattern we've seen with John up to this point. We also have seen that he holds rigid expectations, particularly when it comes to women or more accurately here, females, because Don is a child. So what changed? Why didn't he sexually assault her? Well, Don fought back. And even briefly escaped, and that shifts the dynamic. The situation moves from one where he is in control, as he expects and anticipates to be to to one where that control is threatened. And based on his pattern, when his expectations are disrupted, his response escalates. He likely did not anticipate that level of resistance, especially from a child, and that deviation likely triggered anger or rage. So instead of sexually assaulting her. He went straight into a brutal attack, which are all behaviors that reassert dominance and restore control. In this situation, I think he had to deviate because of unexpected circumstances and a threat to his controlled system. Do you think the fact that Don was so young might have disrupted John's internal script and changed how he acted in that moment? It's possible. I'm not sure I think it's likely though. When an offender chooses a victim that young, it's intentional. They are easy targets. Developmentally they're easily influenced, they're trusting, and often they lack confidence asserting boundaries, especially with adults. And physically, they can't overpower someone John's size. John chose her for a reason. And statistically it's likely because of her perceived vulnerability, her accessibility, and desirability. And I think the only disruption in his internal script was the fact that she was a fighter. Who almost won. And that was something he didn't expect. Whatever John's reasons were, he was clearly just as intent to kill Dawn as all his previous victims. And once she was dead, John left her body on a wooded roadside, out in the open enough to be easily found. He didn't return to move her body again because less than 24 hours later, a truck driver spotted her, just like John wanted. The familiar pattern kept playing out from there, and just like John's other victims, the ME determined that Don had also been on her period at the time of her murder. That wasn't the only connection to the previous, because when investigators surveyed the scene where Don's body was found, they found a gold earring that had belonged to Marilyn's skeleton. This is reminiscent of the Golden Stailler, where items that were connected to prior victims of his were brought into new crime scenes of his. This also supports the presence of trophy behavior, which I actually suspected, because he had the traits, but we didn't yet have confirmation of that. authorities believed the killer was mocking them. And less than a month later, the ridicule continued when the abandoned farmhouse where Don had been killed was destroyed in a fire. After investigators arrived on the scene, they noticed four lilacs placed in a neat row along the driveway. The number of flowers matched the number of victims John had killed so far. The authorities later arrested an arsonist in connection with the fire, but that person wasn't John, which meant he was still on the loose. And as he grew more brazen, John embarked on his most depraved and vile act yet. Whether you're firing up the grill at a local bistro or uploading your next viral video, There is one thing every business owner has in common. You can't afford to be offline. If you are connected. You are making sales, talking to clients, or managing your team. That is where Spectrum Business comes in. They keep businesses of all sizes connected seamlessly with fast, reliable Internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, and mobile services. 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Just live basketball at home when you want it. Sling lets you do that. Visit Sling.com to learn more. In April of 1969, 21-year-old John Collins reportedly murdered his fourth and youngest victim, 13-year-old Don Basam. Despite his increased violence and hubris, authorities were still no closer to catching him. John finished his junior year at Eastern Michigan University and headed into summer without missing a beat. On the surface, he looked like any other college kid ready for a much-needed break. John wasn't interested in taking time off to relax. Early June, it's believed he'd focused his attention on someone new. 21-year-old Alice Kalum, who'd recently graduated from the University of Michigan and was taking a few extra classes over the summer. And on the night of June 8th, while Alice was walking home from a friend's house, he abducted and attacked her. The next day, two teenage boys found Alice's body near another abandoned farmhouse. When police arrived at the scene, they once again noted the extreme violence that had taken place. Alice's stab wounds were so bad the officers could barely look at them. Soon, Alice's autopsy showed that she'd also been on her period. There was one detail that set her murder apart from the others. Alice had been shot once in the forehead. There's a shift in method here. Up until this point, John's behavior has been high personal, and his violence had been all hands on. His methods required that he be in close proximity, and it allowed for him to have full control. But a gun creates distance and it's lethal and it doesn't require any physical interaction. So why use it and why use it now? And I think the timing's very significant because it happens after Dawn nearly escapes. I think that suggests that he's refining and adapting after a near miss, so that he can eliminate any future risk, but more importantly for John's psychology, he can anticipate future risk more accurately. That said, this isn't a full shift in his motive or his methods. The underlying pattern of control and domination and power are very much still present. It isn't unusual for serial offenders to refine their methods as they gain more experience or they gain more confidence. It's adaptation, and we often see it as confidence grows. What do you make of the fact that Alice was shot once? Do you think this indicates that John wasn't really comfortable with using a gun, or maybe the opposite? I think it suggests that the gun served just a specific function. It wasn't really his preferred method. It was used once, like you said, but it was used alongside other equally lethal forms of violence. And I think that indicates it wasn't the primary expression of his control. It was just used for efficiency. It doesn't appear to be central to how he carries out his violence. We know that, especially from his past. Instead, I think it's likely a tool that he used in that moment, but its core pattern is still there. It's still the same. I would be curious to know. If the use of the gun happened after he killed her through his other methods, because if so, that would be s a significant form of dehumanization. The use of a gun initially threw investigators off, but ultimately they determined that Alice had been killed by the same person as the previous victims, which meant the killer was escalating, and so was the pressure to catch him. Five victims so far, public fear was at an all-time high. The reward for information climbed to $42,000, which is well over $350,000 in today's money. and followed up on hundreds of tips. Nothing led them to John. It's also important to remember that investigators were working within the limits of the era. DNA databases weren't around in 1969. So even if the authorities had been able to collect and preserve any biological evidence, there was no system to run it against. Plus, John had no record anyway. The case seemed to be going nowhere fast. By July of 1969, the local community was so desperate for answers that they took matters into their own hands. And a self-described hippie vigilante group called the Psychedelic Rangers enlisted the help of a psychic to create a profile of the killer. The psychic described the suspect as a strong white male under 25 years old, born outside of the United States, who rode a motorcycle. traits that correctly matched John, who'd been born in Canada and started stealing motorcycle parts when he first got to college. When fear and desperation reach a certain level, especially in cases that are particularly brutal and unpredictable, it can cause collective panic. These crimes feel random, but they're also close to home, and authorities have no leads, and people respond to uncertainty of not knowing who's next, when it will happen next, and how it can be prevented everything that they've been accustomed to relying on, like evidence and standard investigative processes. isn't working. So the natural and human instinct is to find anything that will offer hope. And a psychic can offer hope and the possibility of answers or direction. So turning to a psychic really reflects the emotional reality of these crimes in the community. It's a response to fear, lack of control, and a need for closure. And in this case, the psychic just so happened to be right. The same psychic also made one more prediction. They said that the killer would strike one final time, and just days later, he did. On July 23rd, 1969, 18-year-old Karen Sue Beneman, a student at EMU, entered a local wig shop. She browsed around a little before leaving the store and hopping onto the back of John's motorcycle. It seems like Karen believed they were on a date. John's aunt and uncle, who lived nearby, were out of town. So he took Karen to their house. When he got there, he forced Karen down into the basement. What followed next was the most brutal attack yet. John sexually assaulted Karen, strangled her, and beat her severely. He stabbed her repeatedly and forced her to drink a corrosive liquid that caused extreme burns and internal damage. He also stuffed a cloth into her mouth to silence her screams. When it was over, John drove Karen's body to a wooded area. then went back to his aunt and uncle's house to clean up the scene. Meanwhile, Karen was reported missing, and the authorities looked into the timeline of her final movements. The owner of the wig shop told police that she'd left the store with a young man on a motorcycle. they weren't able to give a more detailed description of him, other than the fact that he had dark hair. It wasn't a lot to go on, and three days later, Karen's body was discovered. Investigators were dumbfounded to learn that yet another victim had been menstruating when she died. And soon they uncovered another peculiar detail. The medical examiner found several short blonde hairs all over Karen's body. Karen had a short bob, but her hair was brown. So authorities believe the killer had somehow left the blonde hairs behind. Based on the description of the man Karen had been seen with, the hairs likely didn't belong to the killer himself. Detectives kept this piece of information in their back pockets while they continued strategizing. It was becoming more and more clear that if they wanted to catch the killer, then they'd have to think outside the box. That's when someone proposed a risky idea. It was no secret that the killer wanted to be found quickly. In the past, he'd even gone back to move his victims' bodies if they hadn't been discovered. His compulsive need to watch the fallout of his crimes was a key part of his MO. Tips believed they could use it against him. Even though they'd already spoken to a few witnesses in Karen's case, they only revealed that she was missing. Authorities concealed the fact that Karen had been killed, and they placed a mannequin in the exact spot where her body was found. Then they set up a stakeout and waited for the killer's inevitable return. On the night of July 27th, an officer sat in his patrol car a distance away from where the mannequin lay. The area was completely dark and in the midst of a torrential downpour, so he struggled to maintain a good view of the spot. Then, just before midnight, the officer suddenly noticed the figure of a young man running away from the mannequin. Because of the poor conditions, the officer couldn't see until it was too late. The killer had taken the bait, but realized what was happening and escaped. With John's growing sense of competence and impunity. Realizing he was being set up by law enforcement would have been a very pivotal moment for him. This is his first real direct confrontation with risk, and it's not one that he could have been able to talk his way out of. So in that sense, it likely triggered genuine fear because for the first time the possibility of being caught was very real to him. What happens after a near miss like this can vary. Some offenders become more cautious, they pull back, reduce risk taking, may even go into one of those cooling off periods that we talked about. Others, particularly those who are sensation seeking or whose behavior has already been reinforced by prior successes, can experience the opposite effect. Escaping becomes yet another form of reinforcement because yet again, they just got away with it. That's another thrill. And I think for John, given what we know about him and his history, It's likely the latter. John had outsmarted and even taunted the authorities before. The officer knew he couldn't let him get away. But when he grabbed his radio to call for backup, he realized the heavy rainstorm had knocked out the signal. The call never went through, and the officer lost sight of John. Once again, John had slipped away. It wouldn't stay that way for long, because his desperate and uncontrollable need to kill would soon push him to make an irreversible mistake. This year, experience the NHL playoffs your way. Want to watch us say with you or die gate seven? A full week of a heavy hitting back and forth series, then check out Sling's 1, 3, and 7 day passes. Watch the chase for the cup on ESPN and TNT, starting as well as 499. Term contracts or overpaying. Just buy hockey at home or when you want it. Sling lets you do that. Visit Sling.com to learn more. You're a pro at running your life, at committing to your workout, at showing up every day. At Bombus, we're pros too. Pros at making socks. Our Sportsorbent has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to. Running, hiking, golf, Pilates, and so much more. Made with sweat wicking yarns, blister fighting details, and targeted art support. Bombus Sport is Pro Level Socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you. Go to Bombus.com slash audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's Bombus.com and use code audio. Hi, Crimehouse Community. It's Vanessa. Are you interested in the mysterious parts of history? Like when in 1518 an entire European city couldn't stop dancing. Or in 1908, when something flattened over 800 square miles of Siberian forest in an instant. I'm excited to tell you about a new show, Hidden History with Dr. Harini Bott. Dr. Bott has spent her entire career demanding evidence and asking why. Now every Monday on Hidden History, she goes where history touches the unknown, vanished civilizations, doomsday prophecies, paranormal phenomena, and events that science still can't fully explain. Dr. Bott treats these moments like open case files, not myths, not superstition, just incomplete explanations, waiting for a closer look. At the end of every episode, she'll tell you exactly what she thinks and ask, what if it happened today? Hidden History drops every Monday. Follow now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, so you never miss a mystery. By mid-summer of 1969, 22-year-old John Collins had just reportedly killed his alleged sixth victim, Karen Sue Binneman, after Karen's body was discovered, police set up a stakeout at the scene where she'd been found. Unfortunately, even though John took the bait, he quickly realized it was a trap and escaped without being identified. And the haunting thing is, he was already on their radar by this point. Karen was reported missing, investigators spoke to employees at the shops surrounding the Wig store where she'd been spotted before she disappeared. And one of those employees told them something interesting. Just like the wig store owner, this person had seen Karen getting onto a motorcycle with a young man with dark hair. Except this witness recalled an important detail. The motorcycle was made by a manufacturer called Triumph, which stuck out because it wasn't as popular as other brands. This information caught the attention of a rookie officer who'd recently graduated from Eastern Michigan University. because he knew someone who owned a Triumph motorcycle, a former fraternity brother named John Collins. When investigators showed John's photo to the wig shop owner the other employee, both were adamant that he was the man they'd seen. So on July 25th, an officer went to speak to John. During the conversation, John admitted that he'd been riding his motorcycle in the area that day. that he didn't know Karen and had never interacted with her. Just like in the past, when John was questioned in relation to the murder of Joan Shell, he didn't get defensive, he just told a casual, plausible lie. Except this time, his plan didn't work. Police asked him to come in for further questioning and to take a lie detector test, but John refused. The next day, police announced to the press that Karen's body was discovered. The stakeout to find her killer didn't work, but thankfully, the police had a feeling John might be involved. Unwilling to let a suspect get away a second time, police formulated another plan. They knew John's uncle, David, was a state police officer, and when David and his wife returned from vacation on July 29th, officers immediately informed them that John was a person of interest in Karen's murder. Just as they'd predicted, David didn't want to stand in the way of an investigation, so he told police that John had been watching their house while they were gone. He didn't try to hide the fact that John was in town when the murder occurred. but he was also unable to tell them anything more useful. However, after the officers thanked David and left, his wife noticed some strange things down in the basement, including bottles of ammonia, detergent, and black spray paint that had gone missing. David and his wife felt sick at the thought that their own nephew, who was like a son to them, might be guilty of something so heinous. But still, they wasted no time notifying detectives of what they'd discovered. Then they consented to a search of their home. they were confronted with the most damning evidence yet. During the search, officers found small blood stains in the basement, which were later confirmed to match Karen's blood type. that wasn't all. Scattered near the stains were short blonde hair clippings. When officers asked David about them, he reportedly explained that his wife often cut their children's hair in the basement. Things had come from them. Investigators rushed back to the station to compare those hair clippings to the ones that had been found on Karen's body, and they were a match. When it comes to John, I think what matters most about the environment is that it's a controlled one. The abandoned homes and outdoor areas, they were secluded. They offered privacy and they allowed him total control over his victims. And he needed that to carry out every step. of his MO uninterrupted because that way it could be carried out as he expected and anticipated. His uncle's house is an extension of that, only it's more familiar to him. Having personal familiarity means feeling completely in control of the environment. It can also be argued that this is riskier too because it's personally linked to him. He will be leaving behind evidence that he has to be very careful to conceal, but again, that's part of his broader pattern. The more confident he gets, the more his sense of impunity grows, and the more he feels he can manage the risk. Doing this at his uncle's house is risky, but it's also thrilling to him. John's overconfidence had caused him to make a crucial mistake. The hair clipping served as strong enough evidence for police to officially arrest and charge him for Karen Beneman's murder. John Collins was now behind bars, but he refused to confess to Karen's murder, even when confronted with the evidence. He swore he had nothing to do with it. Investigators weren't buying it, and now that he was off the streets and unable to hurt anyone else, they tried to connect him to the other five murders. They felt certain that John had committed those murders as well, since the MOs were basically identical. Unfortunately, this was hard to prove. Investigators found no evidence in John's apartment, which was frustrating to police and the victims' families. Especially because John's roommate told police he'd seen John throwing out a box just days before his arrest. box looked like it was filled with women's belongings. With those items long gone, there was nothing concrete to tie John to the other crimes. So on August 1st, 1969, John was formally arraigned for only Karen's murder. Police just couldn't tie him to the other victims, but law enforcement elsewhere in the country thought they could. As Karen's case started to unfold, authorities all the way in Northern California reached out, believing that John might be connected to a seventh murder. As it turned out, a 17-year-old girl named Roxy Phillips had been killed that past June in a way that closely mirrored the violence scene in Karen's case and John's other alleged victims. Roxy had been strangled to death and stripped of all her clothes, which were never found. Her body was found partially buried in a wooded area. As investigators started piecing together John's movements, they realized something big. He had taken a trip to Northern California at the time of Roxy's death. He'd gone with a friend to visit John's mom and stepdad. The authorities confirmed this through rental car records in John's name. He'd rented a camper for the road trip, and when police tracked it down, they discovered that it had been cleaned spotless. which meant any evidence John may have left behind was long gone. Detectives couldn't help but think that John had done that intentionally, and their suspicion only grew when they spoke to Roxy's friend, who said she'd introduced her to a man she referred to as John from Michigan. Wouldn't be surprising because it's not unusual for serial offenders to vary the locations of their crimes, especially over time. There are a few reasons for that. Early on, some offenders are still figuring out what works for them. They may experiment with different environments to see where they feel most in control or least likely to be interrupted, and as their confidence grows, they may also become more willing to take risks or expand beyond familiar areas, especially when they've been successful, like we've seen with John. Education can also shift because of practical factors like access, opportunity, or changes in routine, or they move. Sometimes the location is 15 minutes away, sometimes it's in a different state. Another practical reason is to avoid detection. The more they spread out the crimes, the more random they appear to law enforcement, making it harder to connect them to one another. But it still boils down to choosing locations that offer the most amount of control for them, where they feel dominant, confident, and able to manage the situation the best. the strong possibility that John was to blame for Roxy's death, the evidence against him was entirely circumstantial. Plus the issue of jurisdiction would have made it difficult to bring charges against him anyway, so the focus stayed on Karen Beneman. John's defense tried to have the case dismissed based on the fact that police didn't have a proper warrant to search his apartment. their efforts. The case would move forward. John entered a not guilty plea, and his trial began on June 2nd, 1970. courtroom, his mother stood firmly by his side, refusing to believe he was capable of any of it. She even went so far as to mortgage her own home so she could pay for John's attorney. But in the end, it didn't matter. The physical evidence was enough to convince the jury to find John guilty of Karen's murder. John showed no emotion when he heard the verdict, or when the judge sentenced him to life in prison. but he continued to maintain his innocence, although his team was never able to get his conviction overturned. In 1980, after 10 years behind bars, John made another attempt at freedom. He requested to be transferred to a Canadian prison. Because he held Canadian citizenship, it meant he would have been eligible for parole after just nine years. The request was initially approved, but once the public caught wind of it, the backlash was so strong the courts reversed their decision. John would stay where he was. As of this recording, John remains behind bars and spends his days writing letters to female pen pals. He continues to present himself as a man wrongfully incarcerated, never admitting the truth, and never acknowledging all the lives he took so many years ago. John's claims, many people feel certain he committed each of the heinous crimes he was suspected of. And this belief has given rise to some troubling theories surrounding John's Tru motive. John's own cousin has expressed publicly that he believes John killed innocent women as a way to take his anger out on his mother. If you remember from part one, John's mother had multiple relationships with abusive men, all of whom gravely harmed John when he was just a child. Based on that, John's cousin and many others have been unable to ignore the fact that each of his alleged victims were petite brunettes. Just like his mother. That's a theory that makes sense on the surface, and it's not a new one. I mean, for example, it was theorized that Ted Bundy and Ed Kemper did the same, though Kemper explicitly did say so. Ted, however, had clear evidence of this. John's profile is different though. Yes, he did grow up in a chaotic, abusive environment, and a big part of that was watching his mother repeatedly enter relationships where he was harmed and, from his perspective, not protected. And that can be traumatic and confusing for a child, and we talked about that at great length in episode one. And I think it likely shaped how he understood relationships, trust, and what he believes women's roles are. If what he repeatedly saw was dominant abusive men and a more passive or constrained mother, can teach him that relationships should feel imbalance and that they're about power and control rather than safety. And I do think those early experiences influenced how he later viewed women and relationships and created very rigid views and expectations surrounding that. That said. I think the fact that his victims may have resembled his mother was more likely due to circumstance or familiarity, meaning even if he's not aware of it, he was likely drawn to women who looked similar to what he's used to. It doesn't mean he's thinking, wow, she reminds me of my mother. I want to displace my rage under her. It's more that his brain is used to that type of person or maybe attracted to that type of person. So those aren't the people he notices and focuses on. We don't see a very specific repeated pattern of selection that stands out beyond his environment, which is largely a college campus. And that is a saturated environment with overlap in demographics. His mom was not somebody who represented a college woman. And we don't have direct evidence like statements, writings, or behaviors showing that he connected his victims to his mother. So is it probable? Sure, definitely, but I would need to see more to say definitively if that theory holds up for him. It seems John Collins intend to take his secrets to the grave, but despite his lifelong need for control, he's proven to be unable to maintain control of his own narrative. The vast majority of people involved in the case believe he killed all seven victims. And there's nothing he can do to change that. for the victims, Mary, Joan, Marilyn, Dawn, Alice, Karen, and Roxy. Their stories and memories live on through their loved ones. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer. Than so much to Katie Ring for joining. But before we get out of here, Katie, Dr. Engels and I can't wait to get your thoughts on this case. I have a lot of thoughts and questions on this case. I think while we have Dr. Angels here, one of my number one questions I always ask myself, especially with serial killers, is the nature versus nurture question. And especially with people like John Collins who come from an abusive background. Sometimes I ask myself if There's anything genetic. something that came from his father who was also abuser. Or if it's Pretty much all. you know, in the environment that he was raised in. That's a really common question and it's something that a lot of researchers have been studying for decades. And when people ask that question, it's really not one or the other, but it's Both things that are often working together. Some individuals have underlying traits, like John, for example. He's got impulsivity and he's got poor emotional response, especially to others, poor regulation skills. And there are others who have structural abnormalities in the brain. Where are different gray matter, different sizes in different areas of the brain that affect how they respond to things, affect impulse control. Orly experiences, like you said, there's something with research where we've noticed that trauma is a very common factor with serial offending, and abuse, instability, or lack of protection. are things that shape how those traits can develop over time, especially if there are no supportive factors, no intervention, no resiliency, no coping skills. Those all really do affect. how all of those traits are influenced and developed. So it's not as simple as they're always just born this way. Because you see a lot of Children who are born in traumatic households. who are raised in households just like John's, for example, and they don't always develop and become violent offenders. And there's a big myth around abused go on to abuse others. That's a huge myth. There are millions and millions of children who have been abused who have never ever wanted to harm another person and have never ever harmed another person, let alone an animal or an insect. That is a myth, one that I am very active about dispelling any chance I get. but it's the interaction between What's going on biologically, genetically? And what's going on environmentally. and how those things work together and the interaction of those. You can have a predisposition. But with reinforcement of certain things and the right conditions, those things can escalate. or with proper stability, proper intervention, they may never escalate. And on the flip side, not everyone who experiences trauma, like I said, they they don't develop any of those behaviors at all. So I think a more accurate way to understand it is this. These patterns tend to emerge when there's underlying vulnerabilities that get reinforced over time rather than corrected. And that's the same with any predisposition. Like even just mental illness, you might be predisposed to having anxiety, you might be predisposed to having schizophrenia, you might be predisposed to having depression. But it's your environment that can really bring those things out. Or it can help you. to cope with those things and it can help you to stabilize those things. Yeah, that's why I always ask because there are so many people who grow up in abusive households who have decided that they were gonna do the opposite with their life and have kids and build healthy families and not bring upon that generational trauma. Yes. And so sometimes I'm like, is there just something really You know? Yeah. If they're really predisposed to that. Exactly. If he, you know, maybe moved in with his aunt and uncle earlier. Right. Right. Maybe that could have changed the direction of his life. Exactly. I mean I never really know. I worked with a lot of violent offenders who And one of the group topics that I taught them was the cycle of violence. And I taught them how it's learned. I taught them how it's taught intergenerationally. And when they started to really learn that And it started to really, you know, crystallize and they started to internalize that they were they were able to locate in their own life where it started, how it was passed down, how it was modeled, how it was emulated, and where to break it. And so that's when you really start to see meaningful change is when you understand that and you understand other ways of communicating, other ways of showing, hey, I don't I'm upset. doesn't have to be communicated this way. I can communicate it in a different way. There's a lot of that. And so so really it's about, like you said, breaking the cycle, breaking intergenerational, you know, trauma. And it can be done. You just have to have that perspective. You have to have the resiliency, the coping skills, the support. The desire. The desire. That's another one too. And temperament's a big one as well. If you have the right temperament there too. So so yeah, it can be done. I feel like One of the big things, especially for male serial killers, is having that. Mother wound and You know, what are your thoughts on the power of that? On another hand, you know, what I see is that so many men grow up, especially men whose fathers leave. they end up blaming their moms for that le them leaving where it's they were really just Abandoned. Yeah. But in this case, you know, she did. from one abusive relationship to another to another. And again, that the blame's not always on the victim there. There is obviously something probably going on with his mother that was. Yeah, I think there's more to it, I'm sure, than we know. Obviously with with the research we have, it's limited. We weren't we're not in John's shoes. John, from what I understand too. hasn't really been open and talkative about any of this. He still maintains his innocence. He doesn't elicit a lot of information about his past at all. So really the source of understanding this to the like The root comes from him. But he's not uh credible. source right now. So that mother wound that you're talking about. Mothers are often seen, especially in society, as the nurturer. So when a father's abandoned a family and the mother is there, the mother is doing the best that they can. They they really I mean there it's a hard job. They're doing it on their own and that's really difficult. they have to take the burden of that. And unfortunately, because of, you know, just societal demands on a woman and a as a mother, it's on them to pick up the absence of that father. That's the that's the pressure that's put on them. They're they're they're being the mother and the father at the same time. And a child, unfortunately projects a lot of that blame and displaces a lot of that anger onto that parent rather than the absent parent. And it's just it's a it's a reality that happens and unfortunately without intervention, without um additional support and resilience, that narrative doesn't get corrected and unless that's there. often. But as they age and as they start to develop mentally and cognitively understand what's truly happening, because remember, he's really young. He doesn't understand what's going on. He doesn't understand the demands financially, physically, emotionally of one parent taking on the role of two. Trying to support a family, trying to support a child, trying to find Another father for that child, maybe I for recall. John's mom was a a teenager. I think she was What was she, fourteen? Or something fourteen. Think she was fourteen, yeah. Or so when she had him, she was also developmentally far too young to understand what was what she was doing, if we're being honest. So there's that also, there's a whole lot there. So when they get to a a developmental age where they can fully understand the situation, I think that's when they can reel in that anger, they can resolve that anger, they can it a little better, understand it a little better. And generally. The relationship with their p with their mother. gets h much healthier over time. Something I saw in an interview with the sheriff that happened just more recently. It was thirty at thirty years after he was arrested. And he said that his quote unquote mother problems was because she was a prostitute and that he caught her With men, do you think that changes anything in that relationship that could have I mean that's that is traumatic for a child to to witness your your parent or parents, you know, having sexual relations, especially with multiple different partners. And especially if those partners are not partners that feel safe. And he has a history of being around men that have been brought in his what should be a safe environment for him that were not safe for him. So that is a traumatic experience and that can materially change how he views relationships, especially between men and women, and how he views power dynamics. Um if you especially if let's say mom was a sex worker and she was working for somebody. controls her as a sex worker. Yeah. That also adds to a control dynamic. in a control framework in relationships and he's a child witnessing that, that's very, very influential and very powerful. So that could add to very rigid, rigid beliefs that we talked about in the episodes regarding his views on relationships with women. In particular, how women should be treated in relationships, how what expectations he has of women, and certainly his own insecurities in those relationships with women and how he needs to be in control. in those relationships. Yeah. Definitely. It's so interesting and it reminds me of what he did to his sister when he found his sister with with another man. She just gotten married and had a and had a baby and then she was with some other guy and he snapped. There's so much anger there inside. And that could have been from if especially if you saw his mom with different men and Yeah. It threatened the uh the stability and the security and the expectations that he had about what a family should look like and what what felt safe for him. I I I say that loosely, obviously, because he's not safe person. Right. And any by any means, but yeah. Definitely. It it threatened the rigid beliefs and anticipation and expectations he had. One of the second questions I have is about the menstrual cycles. I find it so weird. Yeah. I don't know if all the autopsies mention it exactly the sheriff. definitely said that they were all on their menstrual cycles. And my thoughts is either Did he sexually assault so many women? And then it just happened that these women were on their menstrual cycles at the time. Right. Or Was he stalking these women and finding out when their cycles were It's just like w it's wild to me that there was something a common thread like that. Exactly. My thinking is that's the only way for him to have like for me to believe that he was intentionally choosing his victims because they were menstruating, I would need to see clear evidence that he was like surveillance stalking them and maybe even some life invasion where he's he's seeing going into their home and seeing going through their garbage, seeing when their cycles are and literally tracking it to know. I think it's more likely than not that it just was happenstance. Because if you really were to break it down. You know, like m doing math and statistics. One in Five or six is the possibility. that a woman would be menstruating when he would go to assault them. That's you know, not out of the realm of probability. Yeah. So it's likely coincidence and it might have been discovered upon the assault and added to the rage in the moment because his assaults were. Arguably overkill. I mean, he assaulted them and killed them in ways that were beyond what was necessary to be lethal. So it could have been that, but yeah, I would need to see clear evidence that he knew that and how because especially back then. It's not like he could like track their cycle through an app. I d I just don't I don't track. I know, true or or they're like is he breaking in and seeing their birth control and going that way. Like I I would need to see clear evidence of that. And the only way we would know that is if they found evidence of that in their investigative process or John himself said so. He's again. to this day, claiming innocence. So the sheriff also said something weird. He said that a lady came in and she said that she had gone on a date with him. And he dropped her off and she's like, No, sorry, I I have to go, you know, I have to finish some school work. And he was like, Are you sure? Like, let's just go On a drive. And she's like, No, I absolutely can't go. And Then he said, Are you menstruating? She's like, What? She's like, How did you know? Yeah. And he was like, I can smell it. Wow. So I think I think it's more likely than not that that was, oh, you're rejecting me. This must be the reason. Yeah. This must be why you're rejecting me because look at me, I'm socially loved here on campus. I'm I'm I'm attractive. I'm all American college boy. Right. The only reason you'd say no to me. In getting in the car with me because again, his expectations are very rigid, his anticipation is very rigid. The only way you're gonna say no to me is if you're menstruing. Right. So like that I think that's more likely in that situation. Only John would know. John, would you tell us, John. We need answers. Pretty sure almost every one of his victims was in a relationship. We talked about that at all throughout. Yeah. I found that very interesting too. I think he had to have known that because he'd been eyeing them for a while. There's no way he didn't know that. And I think that also was like part of his victim selection. You're in a relationship, but why are you hanging out on college campus with all these people and not your boyfriend? It's going against my rigid beliefs. And so I'm Maybe that's part of why I'm targeting you. I mean it's hard to very possible, yeah. We could talk about this for hours. Katie, any thoughts from a self defense perspective here? How would you go about protecting yourself in case you end up in a dangerous situation? I mean people people on college campuses, people in just in life, dating. We have a lot of women listeners too who would love to know this. I feel like the biggest thing is that Unfortunately as humans, we tend to not be as suspicious as people of people we are attracted to. Mm-hmm. People we feel like are clean cut. And so I think it's just unfortunately, you know, you can't