Final Thoughts on Public Privacy

S the third time. When you started staring down the barrel of me, I've saved this all morning. I knew I actually we don't usually talk about what these pre dinnaments are gonna be, but I knew that this is what it was gonna to be What did you say? You've had me blocked again Your actions Your actions, I have not had a single involvement in this particular thing. Y sole actions, actually, Gil, you're involved in this as well. Your actions. Well, you're probably blocked too. That have led to me being blocked. And listeners, I'll let you know, this is not the first time Sarah McDonald has got to be blocked. It's the third time Sarah McDonald has got gonna to be blocked. Eight years I long time How many times have Ive got a new blook? I've just never checked. Cple of apes So here please break in. Are we confusing you, Gil? Yeah, why am I in it? Well like you're not in the first two, I suspect. So the first two is from like another era and I didn't do anything wrong I swear. She formed some enemies and the enemies blocked if they didn't want to say me, they could possibly say Michelle. It's been so there was two in the short space of time and Michelle said, you need to be careful. I's like, sorry Last night I was I'm going to try and keep this story as vague as I can. 'ause this person clearly hates us now? I didn't know and they're really famous. Someone really famous that I spoke about.Zara spoke ill of No, that's the thing I was so surprised about. I spoke about this person and I really lik Like this person this person has millions and millions of followers. I went to Stalkam last night 'cause they were like in the ether They've been popped up at Gi E for quite a lot recently And so I was like, Oh, they what are they doing? them around. I thought they don't have Instagram. Oh no, my feelings's gonna get hurt. I was like, they don't have Instagram. I think they'll particularly get hurt. And then I searched and I was like There's no way. I actually was embarrassed about my initial thought. It was like, maybe they bocked me. Anyway, no, I checked off my other accounts. Oh the strangeless media. And it turns out blocked and then Tamless was blocked and then Michelle was blocked. And Sara, do you think I had anything to do with it? No, it was me, it was all me So I feel Sara text me she go, this I blocked you and I was like, huh Why would she bl me? I know, I feel so bad. I honestly, I really love I thought I was just telling a little story about celebrities , I really like this person. You know, what's terrifying? What what other 'causeuse this is a celebrity. This is a celeb. What other fucking celebs have blocked us Fair enough, we talk about celebrity news, we probably deserve it half the time I'm not actually forgiving you. I feel like you need to get me unblocked actually. Well, I certainly can't get on board this first time Skill is checked A we sure she hasn't deactivated Instagram? No, no, because Olllyack L's next Dve just said Ehas is blocked. I know. Is she blocked? I I Oh my f Sorry about that giril. I'll be on my best behavior today. She' just ara's just living casualties everywhere Hello and welcome to Shameless The Pop Culture podcast for smart people who love dumb stuff. You're joined as always by Melbne Riders, Michelle Andrews, That would be me, and Sarah McDonald, that would be you. Hello, Michelle Andrews and hello, producer Elish Gillig. Hi, Happy Monday. Happy Monday soming up on today's show. Tell us what's coming up. A deep dive into where the hell, so Ella is. And what the internet You so obsessed with about this story? Yeah Everyone wants to know where Zoella is. The people are getting mad, the people are demanding answers We have quite a few ways to play this and quite a few places to take it. And I'm excited I'm really excited. Before we get into any of it, a big thank you to the sponsor of today's episode. This episode of Sameless is brought to you by Prime Video's addictive new series L based on Ell Wood's bougie teenage life in nineties Bllair beforefore she became that Harvard law student. Watch it now exclusively on Prime Video This was u Big story on the internet in the last week or to Mish. More than that. I think this shows our different algorithms. Well, sorry, dare I say I should have said it's now picked up by mainstream this week. Yeah. I think I first saw people speculate. and contribute to the room mill about all of this in April. And then ever since then it's just gotten bigger and bigger Beig all Gil, have you seen this aroundound a lot? Oh, I've seen it Yeah. sorry Zoe Sug, otherwise known as Zoellllo, is Probably like one of the OG YouTubers I reckon she was the first YouTuber I ever heard of my life. I agree. I think the same. She has eight point six million Instagram followers, a further fifteen million YouTube subscribers But she hasn't posted a single thing on her socials in six months Yeah, I think when it comes to Zoella, it's probably fair to say her glory days were between Like, I mean, as I said, she was the first YouTuber write ever really heard of. So she was one of the first that first generation of YouTubers who were huge between maybe twenty twelve and twenty seventeen. She put like the crown braid on the map. The thing with her though is I do feel like Zoe sug compared to a lot of other Influencers, content creators, YouTubers who became famous so many years ago has still managed to maintain a really solid level of relevance. I agree. I still think there's an incredible amount of investment in her life, her marriage. Her kids. Yeah, herer pets, all of it. No, I agree with you. I don't think I don't think any celebrity can maintain like the upper, upper level of relevance. Forever. I don't think anyone wants to. No I think She lives a quieter life publicly now but is absolutely something people are still interested in. She's mainly known for vlogas. So every day of Christmas last year she or like December, leading up to Christmas, she was posting a vlog a day And those vlogs tend to get seven hundred thousand ish views. So there's still a lot of buy in from her audience, still a lot of interest from her audience. and she was very prolific. This is a woman who was updating us on every day of her life in December last year and then has gone completely dark since. Well, that's the thing There's been nothing since Jane one, twenty twenty six. So from this first day of this year, she's clearly decided in her own life for her own reasons Even though she posted every day in December, it wasn't going to be something that she was going to be doing In twenty six Beyond that, she was also posting on Instagram a lot. She was posting a dump. a weekly dump. a week week of like, this is what happened this week. So you'd do like week forty three and then you get a carousel of the entire week. That is like an extreme level of documentation and sharing of your life. Yeah, an insight that your community has. And habit that if you are a loyal follower of Zoella You will either seek out that weekly carousel or that daily vlog Or it will come up in your feed and you're just used to this constant never ending stream of updates about what's happening to Zoe Sug, whether her dog has a cold, whether she is wearing a new scarf that day C A you will seze onccion Ds it, docks it. Bes. they cough Yeah Yeah kennel cough. You can get kennel cough. Benjy hasn't had it. So do you know this? Oh I'm pretty sure. Do you know why vets exist? No, I thought that's because that dogs eat things that they shouldn't be eating lis bs. You thought dogs were immune to all viruses? No, I didn't think they're imune I just didn't think they't get bad at all. I didn' think they get like a blocked nose like the rest of us. They do. They really do Oh, that's ad horrible. We spoke before about the fact that Zoella's fans are very invested in her marriage and her kids. Of course I actually don't think she's married, so I've called her married. I think everyone assumes they're married because she's been with Elfie Days forever. He's another very prolific, very popular YouTube creator, they got engaged Yeah. and it's been a while since they got engaged, I think. So everyone's just kind of assumed. Yeah. they have to De facto. you can call it.. Alphfie also hasn't posted anything to his Instagram account since April and nothing on his YouTube channel since November Now neither of them have come out and said anything about like, Hey guys, we wanted to take a break this year or twenty twenty six is not the year we're going to be on socials. Certain fans have also doneone the sleothing to stalk her private Instagram account and say that her posting has gone up there. Yeah, so it's that classic thing of you can't see anything post on the account. you can only see how many posts that account has posted the number of people they follow and the number of followers they have. So they're just checking this kind of blank page with those three numbers going, well, activity is happening here I only laugh because I'd probably do the same. G. No, I said I would probably do the same Like if I was that. obsessed. It's quite smart. I go to content creator and where they've been I think I would do this. Yeah, so far. There has been naturally, and I think this is what we wanted to focus on today. A lot of speculation about what causes this disappearance. And I think the conversation we wanted to have today is around What level of information do you quote unquote, oe in audience to disappear? Do you owe them anything at all? And if you don't, is it reasonable to expect people to respond with such feverish speculation because the raasinons that are flying around, and when I say raisins, I have that in inverted comments The the theory the conspiracy theories that are floating around are getting Pretty insane K kindind of losing touch with reality a little bit hish Yes, So the theories include but are not limited to terminal illness in the immediate family or extended family that their house is getting renovated and they're too busy to bu. Right. That's the weakest one. that Zoe got a face lift and he is waiting for her face to recover before she comes back online that she's pregnant, that they're having another baby via surrogate that they're going through a divorce, that they're planning a wedding and they are too busy to post That she's off filming celebrity traders. That is a weak theory. celebrity traders films over the course of about two weeks. T days So it's not that that they're pulling a reverse Dan and Pil If you don't know what that is, Dan and Phil, other YouTube creators I actually am not going to get into it. Essentially, reverse Den film would be that Elfie is coming out as gay. The list goes on and on Donkeys have come into it at various points. because they have a donkey shelter in their backyard and perhaps the donkeys are in some ways to blame. Okay As you can see, this stuff is like There there is just a wealth of different theories some heavier than others, some stupid thanthers. It gets really just murky when you start going on the internet about this and reading comments do find it helpful in this case and I normally wouldn't, but Looking at Reddit and things like that, those threads Understanding people's motivations for speculating about things so serious, I guess can sometimes give you an insight into how these stories explode. I want to read you a comment from one anonymous Reddit user who is quite passionate about this story, who wrote, I actually kind of do think they owe us something, just a simple explanation. If they profit off us watching them and then just decide to stop, we're all supposed to ignore that. Like you want us to watch and engage in your content, but now all of a sudden you want us to leave you alone, I don't know, just seems weird H An anonymous user wrote, The people that watched Zoe's videos are the reason she has the life she loves so much. At least through them the decency of saying you're quitting or taking an extended break. It's quite Rule really I'm gonna read you one more? Yeah. I do think she owes her audience some sort of update. As everyone has said, the only reason they have the life they do and the ability to decide to give up work in their thirties is because of the audience that have religiously watched her videos, liked her posts and brought her stuff Do not even do a bare minimum Instagram post saying you' taking an extended break for family time, or that you've decided it's time to stop vogging simply proves what we've always known. She doesn't give a tit about her audience. That was from an anonymous tatle Lugh user. This is like pretty extreme amounts of feelings that are coming here and I think a lot of projection from people to say, I feel so heavily involved in this story and therefore I need to be told what's going on How interesting. How interesting. I actually, I mean maybe it's a little bit more passion than I think is Wh Lgely I get it I find it bizarre that we haven't just had a Hey guys. I'm all good I'm just taking a break. I find it really utterly weird. We'll get to that later on though. I think it's worthwile saying The users of Tatle Life definitely take a deep, profound interest in Zoe's life. There are seventy five threads about Zoella Every thread includes fifty pages, about fifty pages of commentary So fififty times seventy five Oh, big number. Huge. Big big number. pages and pages and pages of commentary about the ins and outs of Zoe's life. The current thread that we're on is called Where did Zoe Go? Oh, not bad. Act Speaking about that quite like that we Goy. The story, as I said at the top has been so big that mainstream media has picked it up. Do you want me to read the Sun's headline? Because I also didn't mind this little play on words. Yeah Ss Zos. Very good. How YouTube Queen Zoella's disappearance has left a bad taste in fans' mouths and the real reason behind her you turn. H Because there's so little information here People feel it. Like you know on the internet, if you give people space, they'll feel it when you don't actually su. It's like that perfect amount of information that you have to feed people in order to kill and quell speculation because the internet has so little to go off, this is how these things explode It Kind of like when an A lS celebrity does a pap walk to give the paps something so that they leave them alone. It's like you have to give a little, to get a little, to get a little privacy, you have to give a little of yourself up And I think there is an exchange that happens with public figures you have to give a little to get a little. Yeah, I'm interested in how you feel about this comment because it might lead us into an interesting spot. It's genuinely like she's a senior member of the British Royal family, the amount of people bowing down to her in the comments. She could absolutely answer someone in the comments with a quick, I'm fine, thanks, just taking an extended break, no announcement needed, just the occasional reply. She's giving regal protocol attached to her speaking or returning to Judy's very grandiose behavior The concept of being a senior rooyal member of the family, I really couldn't have fucked that sentence up. J' try again. The concept of being a senior member of the royal family is interesting in this context because I think the last time we had a proper in depth conversation about what the public are owed information wise and what happens when you don't give them much. What happens when you disappear is what happened to Kate Middleton H I kind of want us after the break to recap what happened there and then maybe compare these scenarios and look at them both and say, what do the public do when you're fed nothing? And is it reasonable to fill the gaps The the first in word from today's sponsor as some of us were lucky to experience the cultural phenomenon that was legally blonde, and some of us did, pererhaps you in the room weren't born. 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Watch Elle now exclusively on Prime Video and thank you so much to Primeideo for making this episode of shameless possible The Kate Middleton of it all. let's do it. I really think this is an interesting and important comparison piece here because this story did end up being one where What was going on behind the scenes was quite serious. and you can kind of understand in many ways why the family wanted privacy. But I think with a bit of time and a bit of space, it's interesting to look back I think this is a really interesting one to analyze, particularly with the gift of hindsight, as you said. So to get everyone up to speed again or refresh you all on the details, it was january twenty twenty four when the palace issued a statement saying that Kate had just had abdominal surgery and would be taking a break from public life until Easter. That statement requested privacy for Kate and her kids also included a denial that it was a cancerous condition. Yeah, here's how the ABC News reported it at the time. The palace did not provide further details on the type of surgery Kate underwent on january sixteenth, but confirmed to ABC News that the princess's medical issue is non cancerous So we had surgery and we had not cancerous. And then on top of that Easter deadline of you will see her Easter. Yeah. she wasn't then saying in public for months as they had told us was the case But I think the online frenzy began about a month after the statement was released because it was During that time that the internet started to us the interternet does Host Little roomors here or there that start to become quite flammable. and in these roomors it was actually been recovering from cosmetic surgery. What is this surgery? I was threeree main rumors. Do you remember? It was facelift rumor? Yeah. It was she's divorcing William, Imost call him Lilliam She's divorcing a little brother. She's divorcing William because infidelity has occurred in some level and or that she doesn't want to be an active royal anymore and she's leaving Her duty as future quQueen. Well us from the past. That is what. they actually were the key rooms for sure. I thought she was leaving the palace. I thought she was fully out. So did I? in march twenty twenty four In what appears now with hindsight to be maybe an effort to dispel the frenzy, although we all know how that turned out Palace's official Instagram released a photo of Kate and her kids for Mother's Day I feel like a lot of people listening will be able to picture or conjure this image up in their heads of what this image was, but it had the opposite effect. 'cause online flus started accusing a photo of being edited or falsified or AIed. I found this interesting at the time because I think when they uploaded that image and people started saying now, it's not real. I was like, okay, well we're genuinely losing touch with reality right now. Like it's just an image. let them post the image. Yeah. Turns out the image was very dramatically retracted by major outlets for being deceptive. Yeah. so the Associated press, which is widely regarded as one of the most trusted news sources worldwide The Associated Press has won sixty politz prizes for journalism, just to contize it. They're journalists journalists. They are journalists journalists. They issued a kill notice over this photograph. already interrupted. But I think even that language of kill notice to the average person is so extreme and aggressive. Kill notice, this photo is fake is essentially the too long didn't read. Let me now give you the long version that This alert went out to every major news organization with a subscription to the Associated press In capital letters Pill photo from your systems and archives. Upon closer inspection, it appears that the source has manipulated the image, no replacement photo will be sent With the gift of hindsight, it is no wonder the public was whipped into a frenzy over this. We hadn't seen Kate in months. There was speculation she was leaving the castle. the palace There's rumors that she's deeply unhappy or that she's had surgery and all of a sudden, the proof, the proof that she's doing okay, killed by one of the most prestigious journalistic bodies because it is deemed Yeah, I think this was such a wild bungle from this PR team inside the palace. It's unbelievable because I think even you remember the excuse they gave at the time and they said, o Oh yeah, Kate's going to take the fall for this. And she basically came out and said, like many amateur photographers, I do occasionally experiment with editing. What did you actually think? I know we're talking about Zoella in this episode. But what happened with this photo in particular? Do either of you have any theories? Photoshop was terrible. Do you remember zoom in there was like a hand that was wrong. There was an extra finger or like misaligned Um Lines in the background of just really shoddy dodgy photoshop. I do think it was probably her Iree. Do you think that girl? I I don't think it was her. I think the palace made her take the fall for this. Yeah. And I feel really strongly and yucky about that Well, I think I still feel strongly unlucky that they made her take the fall even if I do think it could have just been her plan. Yeah tr. Like I think this idea of what we know was happening behind closed doors and what they were trying to protect themselves from. The idea that they tried to release this photo and maybe she said I can just play around with it to make it look. I don't Well, now we know that she had cancer, probably when that photo was taken I obviously had a mother who was going through the same plot, so was your mum at one point says You They want control over how they feel and look. So it's absolutely totally reasonable to me that Kate would have said, Hey, I'm not feeling my best right now. I the photo that goes out and approve the photo that goes out and have control over how I look to the public. Exactly. And I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happened. I think I think they needed to come out with a better explanation than letting her take the fall for a photoshop job, though And then I think I think that's what happened. And so then we had Two weeks between by the way, twoo weeks of that and then wondering what the hell was actually going on. then and then there was that kind of grainy pat photo at the market where everyone's like, is it her or is it not? And then a grainy photo of her in the car. And I think people genuinely were like, we don't know if these are plants now. Remember it genuinely got to a point where people were like, is this a body double? Yeah. Two weeks is a long time for the public to be like, we haven't seen her. We've a fake photograph killed by By legitimate news sources, two weeks is like two years in media language. Well, how again, if you give the public space, they'llill it, and to your point, it's a marathon to feel. There's a lot that can happen in a couple of weeks. as we know Now And the palace came out two weeks after all of that and said, actually Kate does have cancer We have been trying to deal with this behind closed doors. Can you please pipe down now? Yeah. And she said, you know, originally the pilist said it was non cancerous because we thought it was at that point. We thought as at the point of my surgery that it was a non cancerous mass that needed to be removed It was when that massk was tested after surgery, it did like appeaar to be cancerous So you ended up in one of those situations where the palace never lied to the public At the point the pellace said it's not cancer, they thought that to be true. But They never updated the public when it was revealed to be cancer. So the public, I think, felt they had a license to run with speculation because we all went, well we know it's not cancer. so she's not desperately unwell. Therefore, let's fill in all the other blanks it could be. Yes, and I think that probably fell out of the story a little bit in the immediate aftermath that that is what The world had been told. And so what is interesting here is like with the power of time and with the power of hindsight Can we take from what we've learned from Kate Middleton and that story into this ella story, do we need to be extremely delicate with public disappearances? Or will this always be the way the public reacts when people they love and no longer accessible anymore with no explanation? Let's talk about it after the break Mish, a true sign you've made it to peak adulthood is getting excited over things that improve your health. I totally agree with you there. Bonus points if they're convenient because if not, it's probably not happening for me. Yeah, I've been loving the Nuture Naturals bone broth. I love to sip on a bone broth as much as I can, particularly when the weather is colder and these are rich, savourory and very yum I don't always believe that bone broth is made equal and these are delicious ones. No these get my tick of approval for sure. Sip them straight or add a spoonful to your winter recipes or meal prep to support your immunity, gut health, and overall wellbe this winter. Use the code shameless for twenty percent off at nutrnaturals dot com dot au and thank you so much to Nutrure Naturals for making this episode of shhameless possible Okay All right , where do you want to start It's an interesting question of and I think the reason those Reddit and Tatlegh comments are important to read out at the top is it's an interesting question of what public figures owe you when theyappear from the public eye I think the question of what they owe people really depends on what the public figure is asking for. So a lot of people are saying this life and now she's telling us to leave her alone Actually she's not She's not she's not getting to my knowledge publicly yet at the time we're recording Annoyed that there's this speculation. She's not asking the speculation to shut up. She's just asked Quietly to disappear. And so I think when we're like, well, what do public figures owe us? My first thought is like, well, if she turned around tomorrow, if Zoella turned around tomorrow and said I've disappeared and now you're all speculating. Well, then I think this is an unfair exchange that I'm happy to deep. But for now she's not complaining about it. No, do you think she owes the public anything? If you build a business, which she Zoella is a person or Zoe Sugg is a person, but Zoe Suggg is also a business If you'd build that by updating your fans on every step of your life, which he has done for over a decade now I would say you are expected to just let them know you're okay. I think we can sit here and say, you know fans are so like we could treat the fans as having malicious intentions or being too nosy, but I don't think they are being too nosy. I think they've developed a parasocial relationship with someone who's fed them all this content about herself. Parasocial connection often can be mistaken for something deeper than that, that it is like a friendship. I think a lot of her fans would consider her a friend. Well I mean, yeah, such is the definition of parasocial as there's an intense emotional connection there. I do find it strange that she wouldn't just come out and say, guys, I'm fine I genuinely do believe not all fans, but I do think a heavy proportion of fans would have some kind of concern to say the person we love and the person we want to see happy and the person we financially supported has vanished and I don't know why. When we say financially supported, what are we talking about? buying her Advent calendars, buying her candles. Yeah, it's funny the money exchange. I feel less passionate about the financial support element and actually just the exposure to someone's life and that emotional connection that people have. because I agree with you. For example, if I was to put myself in this scenario to be really candid and if I knew that there was a reason that I needed to disappear from this show for a few weeks or months There's no way I couldn't say anything. And I've always assumed that's the trade. I've always assumed if something massive happened in my life that I didn't want to share some extreme thing that happened that took me off the show for a while, I would have to share that before I was ready because it would be more simple and more straightforward. and it's probably how this exchange with us in the audience works that they need to know why I'm not here. Interesting. I've always just made that assumption. And so do is it because I think I owe people that I guess I've been trying this week to work out if it's because I think I would owe people that Or if it's because I think it would actually make my own life easier, becausecause then people don't fill that space and speculate which could make something that's hard even harder. To follow this hypothetical down, Do you think you would need to share what's actually happened? Becauseuse I think I reject that.. I think you would need to say guys, I think what we would owe the listeners, say I vanished from the podcast for a month I think it would need to be guys. Miss's actually going through something in her personal life. She'll speak about it when she's ready, but she's going to be off the show for four weeks. I do think our listeners largely would be Pret pretty incredible about that I what can I say though When you if you don't mind me mentioning this, G for At the start of last year, when you came back to the show and you were like ' been going through something and I'm not ready to talk about it. You did get some comments from people to say, I think it's unfair that you say you're going through something and you won't tell us what it is. Well, I got a damn from one exact. And this is the thing. if we're looking at the percentages, I think ninety nine point nine. I fine with it. There always will be someone that will come back to you and say what you're giving me is not enough unless you actually bay your s. So there'll always be a proportion of people agree The vast majority of people would hear that and say, Oh, okay, I'll just sort of Leave her be What I found with the Kate Middleton story as well is even though when that news came out. Actually maybe there are people that saying, Well, you haven't told us what type of cancer or you haven't done X,Y andZ. I do think the public back way off. Yeah massively. I think they got the information and then they're like, oh Godd I'm out. I felt sick. Yeah. someone who would in very kind of like lighthearted ways, tried to analyze what was going on with that story. I remember where I was when I found out that she had cancer and my whole heart dropped because I was like, fuck If I had known it was cancer, this would have never been a funny What's What's up with the rooyal Palace thing or the royal family thing on the show The average person is decent. The average person does have that reaction whether you're a journalist, a media commentator, or just someone who's not involved in the media at all and just on socials do think the same with Zoella's fan base. I think if she came out and said, guys, I'm just taking a break It doesn't have to give any reasoning beyond that. I'm taking a break. I'm fine. I'm healthy, I'm well. my kids are well I think people would back off number one, but I also think that's what she should do I find this interesting because I think this is actually in some way may be slightly attention seeking donon't think you can build your life for yourself off the back of public love and adoration and then just Yate out of it I don't think you can do that. I don't think I could do that or that I should do that I think if I'm expecting people to give me their attention and opt in for what I'm doing online, thenen I have to give a little together get a little Well, yeah, I think I've always bought into the idea that I would have to give a little to get a little for sure And so I'm trying to work out if I'm happy to apply those rules to other people. And broadly I think you're right. Like I do broadly think you're correct in that it is largely the exchange you enter into And there's a lot of good parts of that exchange and there are a few harder parts of that exchange. And this is probably one of the slightly more difficult parts. But then to your point, I think even if something was wrong behind the scenes, becausecause there could be. you have to keep your eyes open and ears open to any gosid yeah You still probably could say twenty twenty six is the year I've decided I've been doing this since twenty twenty twelve, I'm just gonna to have a bit of privacy to myself for six to twelve months. just to kind of brahe And I'll be back. And I think largely that also would have been fine. Or do you think this is the other thing? Do you think this still could have happened Becauseuse I still think a version of this could have happened. Yeah, version, but it wouldn't be as frantic or frenzied It reminds me a little bit. I don't know if you guys saw Nara Smith come out this week. I think some people in Nara Smith's life were saying, o, you've been a little quieter this year, where have you been And she revealed the news that about six months ago, she found out her two year old daughter has cancer. and they've been in the hospital with Wimsy and going through her cancer treatment and trying to juggle parenthood and you know work on top of everything Do you think the average person has a well of compassion to tap into in moments like that? and If you remove any info from the equation and you just disappear I don't think people go to compassion. I think people go to confusion. and out of confusion, that's where you get batshit crazy ideas. dononkeys and infidelity and to front Dan and Phil situation. Well, it does that's where it's kind of like you have Tw choices. And one is just going to be immediately extreme Yeah, if you don't. say the small thing. But genuinely, what if she's sitting at home right saying, I don't really care I don't really care that there's speculation. I don't really care. Like do you then in that case St owe people something just because they're speculating if she's not phased by it. I think if she's sitting there shrugging going, I don't really care, I think that's a slightly cynical way to approach what she has built. She's built a parasocial relationship with people who care about her. And for her to turn around to that and go, I don't care if they're worried about me. I find that to be a strange psychological standpoint. likeike. what do you mean you don't care?'ve you've profited from that care build a whole life off the back of that car. If people are genuinely worried And you could just spend fifteen seconds on your phone to dispel that worry shouldouldn't you? No, I think I agree with you. I think I'm just trying to attack this from every corner. I don't know why. I' confused. Where at why? Well, I also think It would be hard to do the job that she's been doing since twenty twelve if you actually care about those people in that exchange. Like I don't actually think you could be a content creator or an influencer. if you didn't care about that, par a social relationship. But then okay, so Second to that The other scenario is something is going on and it's quite serious and it's hard. And she's just genuinely like she can't come out and say everything's fine because it's not Don't need to say everything's fine. You just need to say, guys, I just need a break. I'm taking a break. I see your commentary. I need a second before I talk to you. talk to I'd tell you anything I think that would be enough It wouldn't be enough for everyone, but it would be enough for ninety five percent of people. And I think we're talking about the majority here, aren't we? Be we're always going to get some crazies Yeah I mean, you straight up. L I'm always going have that person who DMed me and said What do you mean? you can't tell me what's going on in your life? T be try, I responded and said, My mum has terminal brain cancer. She she said, basasically, I don't care. She justond She responded. She was like I I still think you owe us that So you're always going to have the weirds. like the unreasonable people who just think they're owed more than they do. because that is the question. it's like, okay, so as a as a fan you're owed like a tiny bit, but not a lot. Yeah. The difference between a decent person and a and not to dive person is being able to accept the little bit you get. Yeah, I think all that Zoella owes us is to post anything anything in any way, in any forum that you are comfortable with to let us to just to just acknowledge it. I think she owes an acknowledgement whatever the fuck that looks like. I also wonder Because I've noticed like a very slight difference in our language here and I think maybe the five to ten percent difference in our passion might come from the fact you are biger fan than I, because you're using the word us Oh my go, that's so true. Well, I haven't watched videos in so long, but I to be a die hardard fan. Exactly. I think you're putting yourself in the camp of someone to be like, I really do want to know whereereas I think I'm removing myself very slightly from it to say I have them You tell them. Yeah. And I think maybe that could explain the slight difference because I think broadly we agree. Yeah I also think I can be really parasocial about people I do want to know. I do want to know if she's okay. and I want to know if her kids are okay and I'm not oed exactly that. I'm just oed like Hey Thank you Where are you? Like are you seeing this? This whole thing's happening online Are you Pross it. What's happening in your mind about it? Do you have any comment on it Emily Kaiser, I feel so parasocial about Emily Kaiser, who a lot of people do after she lost her son Trig last year I genuinely, when I think about the people I'm parasocial about online, I want the best for them I actually think I'm parasocial about anyone I hate. If I don't like you I kind of remove you from my feet I move on. I do think a lot of people operate from quite a kind, compassionate place. I want the absolute best for the women I follow online that I love and that I've watched grow and develop and build these amazing things. Well, you feel genuinely happy for them when things are going really well in the same way feel feel like we wouldd be friends. Yeah. one hundred percent. How do you feel parasocial with people online Gill I agree with you, Mch, that's a really interesting point. I feel very parasocial in like a positive sense about my favorite creators. Emily Kais is a great example because I really like her and I love her. I just want the best for her. I think my brain got a little bit poisoned yesterday when I was researching this episode and looking on the Tatetleife forums and the Reddit forums and stuff Because you do forget when you live in this world where you're parasocial in a positive sense, you forget that a lot of people are parasocial in a really negative sense. Well a I think a loud minority. Yeah parascial and negative sense. you hear from them the most, but they're not the majority. I think this is actually the crux of this conversation because I think deep down in my heart, I've made the assumption Generally people have parasocial relationships in a not so positive way. Probably not true. What you see what I see, what I feel, the stuff that sticks But in reality, if it's parasocialness in a positive way Broad sense then maybe this is a much easier story to unpack. Are you parasocial about anyone you dislike? No. Are you parasocial in like I love them? I love them. I think I could be friends with them.. you talk yourself up about it. think I think this could be a really interesting poll for the listeners. is like and if people want to be honest with themselves, it's like, arere you parasocial in a more positive way or a negative way Yeah And it's interesting how I do think it's a warping factor that what we see, I'm not commenting. I don't you wouldn't see me engage with Emily Kaiser's content in her comments section or anything. I'm liking shit. I'm sending it to my friends and my group chats. keeping praise upon her in places she can't see. The weird thing. I think there are people on parascial with wh I may not even follow. Yeah. So I don't even think I would be publicly tied to that. I want the best And I want to know and I do care if they're okay and I do care if everyone's all right and I do care if they're just taking a break because they need a break and I want that for them J Just let me know. Let me know. Let's see what you guys think. I'm really interested to hear what you think and how invested you feel in this particular story, but also just generally about people in general ome to Instagram. Yeah Y must. Love you guys. You know where to find us? Kill, thanks for this one. Thanks. So whilea don't block us They would be okay. This would be your fault though not m. This one would be my first. Bye Fameless media. This podcast was recorded on Warundjuri Land, alwaysways was, always will be Aboriginal Land