Reflecting on the Journey and Book

Oh hello, it's Harriet and I've just come on to let you know that I'm on tour. Later in the year I'm bringing my show Fuie to you fluszing about the UK. Lots of new shows have been added, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, London, New Date there and we've added Winchester Froom got in trouble for pronouncing that wrong. Froom, Taunton, Leeds, Milton Cunes, Leicester, Margate, Farnham, and let's not forget, Colchester. You can get tickets at harrietkeemesley dot com and I'd love to see you there I'm very glad to. And I'm Harriette Kemesley. We're both single and in our thirties and we've found ourselves back on the dating scene andscape has changed. Everyone to settle down, but we're back out there. We're desperately trying to figure out what the hell we should be doing. So we're going to speak to experts, chat about dates we've been on if we manage to get any and share your tips and horror stories. So we all feel less alone. We might even get our exes on. Yeah, we'll see about that This is Single ladies in your area In well, well, well, well, well meet again. We meet again, old friend That was a cheeky laugh. Wunky episode. which've got cheeky episode. me up, I can feel it. We've got Emma Louise Boyintnton. Oh no my phone. We have a problem on this I tell about what happened. Por Ay almost every single record at some point, twice, my phone will fall out, I off my chair and onto the floor And she has stopped hiding her day. I think again We'll never learn. We never learn. and that's just us. us I guess just us. But we are going to learn from Emma Louise Boyinton. Yeah Author Journalists. Yeah. Penter Yes, podcaster researcher. Sex researcher has re herself that That's important. we say that. I'm gonna to call myself up. H' the frontier. Y. I'm a frontier, sex researcher. Sounds like a Yeah, you want to describe yourself Thank you for putting the statement on there for everybody to know. Yeah, Emma Emma's great. I think some of the stuff she says is going to be really really helpful for a lot of people out there that are looking to kind of connect with their bodies and feel pleasure. whichich is also the name of her book. I'd love that It just a pleasure. Just a bit of pleasure. Yeah. Well, were can find out how to get some. You've read half of her book, right Yeah, I don't w want to brag, but D, that's really genuinely impressive That's really good. That's great. It's really it's really interesting and she's really, you know, doing the good work. Do the good fight. Yeah. I'm really excited to meet her. I'm excited to get stuck in, find out How we get some pleasure in our bloody bodies for change Sorry I'm on my period and I'm thinking, when's the last time my body did anything for me that wasn't just cramps. Yes. St. Yeah, why don't you try do why don't we have orgasms on our period? It' be amazing. Yeah. Why is it always pain? Why is always Wh no gain? Yeah There's always pain, there's no game all the time It body. Yeah, we need more gge. Yeah. less pay more g. Somebody up there who's in charge of you. Yeah. Tort this out Yeah, Maybe Emma can sort out. really feel like we could trust Emma with this. Should we get her on? Oh, let's get her on Let's get her wr on. Let's get some pleasure It's a match Oh Hello, well we're very happy to be joined by Emma Louise Boynton. Thank you for joining. Oh my God Aute pleasure this is already just like the best energy to begin a podcast on. so I feel a bit giddy. So if I just like talk at super speed and like overshare then this is's your fault. the right place. Listen to at half speed. Yes. We' go listen dou pcast. podcast. It's okay, you know what, I have say, I actually do usually listen to podcasts and double speed. but then whenever Ive used to edit my own podcast episodes I was listening to one on like half speed. I speak so fast that you cannot listen to one dollar speed. You literally can't catch a single word. Oh is it efffficient to you know lots of word per minute. So he's good.ound There. like that. We're business ladies I guess both of us. I've met you before Yeahes, A couple of times.Qite few Yes, we're just saying, so I think so the first time we met, I think was more than four years ago was before you had Mabel I interviewed think it's so her house. I can't remember what the interview series was. It was it was a No me neither but it was I think it was you and I intervdiewed a few other people and I just obviously adored you. and then you came on sex talks and you were just utterly fabulous. Can you explain listeners if they don't know what sex talalks is? Yeah Be it's an exciting name. It's a very exciting name. It's a good name, isn't it? The only thing is you can't say it on social media because sex is obviously a totally So from a kind of business strategy perspective, if I had a bit of foresight, maybe putting sex in the title of my business was like not I had exactly it I in a show a few years ago called Sluttyy Joan and they do not like it when you write slut. They don't like slutty They do not like slutty. And so yeah, all I tried to do adverts for it and they'd get jjected No I mean I gave up ads. I was like, there's no chice. I tried one surtes. I couldn't even get like a really boring post that had like just yeah, Sex Talks logo. But yeah, so Sex Talks is a live event series, which I've been running for God, like four years now, which is kind of mad. but I set it up Really I went to sex therapy a few years ago, which I'm sure we can get into a little bit. and I was just amazed at the conversations I had in the sex therapy room were conversations I just never had around sex, my body intimacy. And I was having this conversation. I thought, God, this is wild that we don't have better conversations around something that we are all doing and we all have some sort of relationship with The sessions prove to be just like just so transformative for me for how not just my relationship sex, although it was transformative for that, but just how I related to my body, how I showed up in the world, my confidence in myself And I just thought more women need to have access to these insights and these conversations And my background is in journalism, so I worked in news and current affairs for many years in the newsroom I work like Sky, BBC, worked Tatina Brown in New York. always work in journalism, but across different medums. So I worked on radio, podcasting, live TV, and then ended up in live journalism events with Tina Brown. So I knew what I knew how to do was to tell stories and to kind of I loved bringing people together. So I thought, okay, what do I know how to do? and how do I get people talking about sex? So I thought, okay, I wanted to do a one off event around the orgasm gap which again, we can go into momentarily. And I thought, you know, maybe it could just be me. Maybe no one else was to talk Lo and behold, the event sold out and so I was like, I'm gonna do another one. It turns out people have all pe or they don't and they want some of them Exactly. So a lot of them did So it ended up. so I just kind of fell backwards into running this live event series and podcast called Sex Talks, which was really kind of the intention was to get more women to have access the conversations and insights I'd had in the sex therapy room Also to have a sitting shoulder shoulder, I loved that it was a live event because you its I want people in a room together talking about sex, intimacy all stuff coming. Listen if you want to be in a room Okay, that wasn't quite the intention of the series, but listen, if there's a spin off opportunity should we do a cola? or does let look into the legalities of things. but yes and I've run it for many years and I took a bit of a pause whil I was writing the book, but I've now kind of restarted it Yeah That's so. When I did it, the people that you got on were so inspiring and it was a really It feels like especially in the UK, you know, there's not many there's not many events like that where people are talking so And honestly it felt really exciting in the room. Oh, I'm so glad you said that and I do the energy. so I kind of really missed it when I was tucked away in the library writing. I really missed just the like community that I built and was I feel that I built that kind we built that everyone who came was so much a part of the series because there was just this like frenetic energy in the room. People were so excited to get an opportunity to about sex and to have these conversations that it's just, as I said before, it's wild that we don't grow up having better conversations about the thing that we all do and that we all have, you know experience of and often many of us have like issues around. And so there's, yeah, there was always just this amazing energy in the room. and I always wanted it to be very be a space that people could who've had no prior experience of talking very openly about sex to come to because I think the sex positivity movement is wonderful. so many incredible sex educators and people online who are, I just think, so phenomenal in what they're doing. But I think if you haven't, like me, if you've never really spoken about sex opening before, some of the stuff can feel quite intimidating and can be a bit like,h, you know, not I'm not at the sex parties yet. I'm not field orready have ever dating yet? Yeahet, you know I'm not quite there yet, but I definitely am interested in this. And so I wanted seex Talks to be this kind of that first place you come to, where you can feel totally comfortable. It alost felt like kind of magazine journalism vibes where it wasn't just interviewed some amazing sex therapists, but I had lots of different know when we did a panel, it was a panel of comedians Talking about sex and intimacy. so I had lots of different people working across different fields to talk about sex and dating. So it always felt, I think, really accessible to everyone, which is important to me. That has answered a question I was gonna ask and I' mean this with love I was gonna say why did you have Harriet? G an expert? They wanted an expert. I wanted an expert on sex and dating and the first person I thought of was Harriet. Of course it is. Listen And I wasn't wrong. It was a fabulous panel. I remember that qu the tenor of our conversation, but I remember thinking I am sitting across from an expert. Yeah. Wow. Wow, we don't know what fs yet. broad expertise. I really know what But you know what? this is actually this is the joy of sex talkks because yes, I have lots of people who are very much in the sex wellness space. I know sex therapist, people who are you ye, hats on expertancies. Yeah. And then people who aren't doesn't feel necessary but have like lived experience of you know d is into dating. But also just people who talk openly about sex and intimacy because I think that's what was so I think that's what's Bins has made it so accessible because people come they're like, oh to me to, Ohh, that, I really resonate with that. So I think that has always yeah And that's of the things I'm halfway through your book and I'm loving it. And I think that's one of the things that's very interesting about you speaking about because I think that's kind of what your book is about about how you're living a personal journey and it can become a shameful thing or a thing that's hidden and actually sharing and speaking about things is the answer a lot of the times to our problems. Totally. I think Just like shame thrives in darkness is diminished in light. And I think that when we are able to speak more openly about things that historically we felt we need to hide and we need to kind of keep to ourselves It's such a release S that with, you know years of having done that. I for so long, I thought I was broken in my relationship to sex intimacy. I Once I came out of my one Now my second long term relationship. My first long term relationship. I was about twenty three and I just stopped being able to orgasm. and after that it was just like years and years. I just felt so disconnected from sex. I didn't enjoy it. I didn't know how to I fact I didn't know how to do it And I thought I was totally alone in that. As far as I was concerned Everyone around me was having mind blowing, orgasmic, wonderful sex. and I was just not And so I wasn't talking about it. and I didn't really open up to everyone anyone about the fact that I wasn't enjoying sex. and I felt like I didn't know how to. And as soon as I started speaking as soon as I wrote this kind of column whilst doing sex therapy, that I had sex talks, as soon as I began telling people, I'm actually doing sex therapy, I'm actually going to so many people. It transpired, had their own issues they were going through a se and they were like, Oh, you know what? yeah, that's actually something that I've been experiencing too. And the shame just kind of begins to shed a bit. And I think there's something, I was talking to a friend about this the other day There was something Confronting Proably quite generally positive, but also like mad about doing that quick publicly with sex talks because I felt I was still in the process. I'd finished sex therapy. I'd had an orgasm, which is my first for like many, many years, which was Thank God on a one light stand you know No I then like ghosted him. I was so overwhelmed by the experience so n 's so nice. He's likess he's so I then know we follow each other online and he's like a really nice guy. I think he's engaged now something. So like he's good.. But I was just kind of overwhelmed and he was really open and he was really Like looking back, he was wonderful. you know, we had very open conversations about sex. We then And then you know he called me out. he was like, Are you ghosting me? L this is And I was like, no,'m just I'm super busy. And I didn't mean to. But I think I was just I did not have the emotional maturity nor the language to like meet the situation as an adult because I hadn't got there yet I was still fumbling around like, okay, what does it mean to be this sexually liberated woman who now is okay talking about sex and being going on dates with a feeling of empowerment rather than like perennial anxiety? So I really did not meet him at a great time. but anyway We weren't me to be. He's fab He does get mentioned in the book. I Good Totally honmestly and you know I wonder if Ev Can I you went to sex therapy as a single person? Yes. That's interesting. So you just one day decided Be that's quite a big decision to make and that's really inspiring to go, do know what? I'm not having good time with this. Yes I love the way you've framed that as if I'm this like incredibly organized like, you know what? there's a problem. You know what I'm gonna to do? address it. That is not me. I'm not like a massive future planner. I think' just I'm a real doer in the sense I'm always doing things and I'm just like million miles per hour. And I think by virtue of being someone who just always just I don't know. what do I describe that I hate to say like things just happen because they don't. You put yourself in situations and then you make it happen. but there was not full sight or planning to this I a dinner party, I never talked about sex openly, least of all with strangers, but there was something about the dinner party We were kind of, you know, in that period of lockdown we were coming in and out of lockdown. And we were all just kind of glitching and I was like, D't know who I am? D don't know what I talk about? not even sure I know my own name. Yeah I was at a sleepover in the countryside with someone I'd met once, didnid't know anyone there, but I was like, sure. was like we were in one of thoses moments and I knew we'd be thrown back into lockdown soon enough For whatever reason we started talking about sex and I said these two women sitting on eith side of me, I was like, yeah, I'm just like not a sexual person. I don't really like sex. Yeah, I just don't really I'm not able to orgasm. It's just not for me. And they had both gone to see the sex therapist, Alex Traculia, who's based in Australia. and they'd become just absolutely evangelicals for the power of sex therapy Little did I know, I would soon become the number one proselytiser. Honestly, in another life, I would have been a momormon knocking on doors, telling everyone about God in this life, I'm telling about sex. But you know they both said to me they were like, know this is something you can address, you can fix this And they gave me Alex's number and they were like, just please, please get in touch with that. Like I promise she' changed. She' changed both of their lives. I really helped them As I said, not much of a planet, but you know what I love a business incentive. And I said I was doing some writing at the time for the stack world run by a wonderful friend of mine, Charline Reid. And I was on the phone t and I was like, you know, I meet these girls I think I might do sex therapy. written it down somewhere on a post note,. Maybe it's gonna happen. And she said, you should write a column about this because it'd be really interesting and you should have the stat business incentive. So I was like Say no more. like us for the podcast. Hest. And needing it just to like because there's like you know Bajillion and one idea is floating around. justust I need a reason to do it. And like you know, self I wish it was, you know, just for the benefit of my own like connect to my body. No, it was. It was exactly ended up being really That' kind of the best way I could have done it because I wrote this article, I wrote the first column about of the conversations we'd had in the first one to two sessions, which I thought would be very much orientated around so. You need to go masturbate. This is the vibrator, like just straight down the e And of course it wasn't. It was like, what is your relationship like to your body? You know, how have you connected to your sensuality over the years? And I was like, Hm, well, actually I grew up with, you know, a really bad eating disorder and I'm actually still kind of like struggling with it. And I hadn't told anyone that time. And I wrote this article about the connection between body image issues, eating disorders, and sexual dysfunction. so inability, in my case to orgasm Again, having thought I was totally alone in this, not knowing that there was a connection even in the first place. and my sex therapist who'd actually done a lot of research into this specific topic. So it was soreiculous that we put together and I wrote this article and I was inundated with responses from women who are like, I also have an eating disorder, I also struggle with sex And And we think about shame and how important it is to recognize that you're not alone in whatever it is that you're going through that is the cause of this shame. was just to me, I was like This is it just blew my mind and that was really the catalyst that kind of eventually sparked. wass a huge thing That will impact every area of your life, just discovering that Connection 's discovering the connection because it now seems so mad to me that I didn't make that connection between my relationship to my body and my relationship to sex, but we're so good at compartmentalizing or it wasn't I just didn't address it. I could often referred to them, I think I'd referred to this in the book as my like twin pillars of shame. So it was the Eatating disorder that was that manifested in my well, I was really anorexic when I was a teenager, all girls school It was kind of like, you know in the water. And then as I got older, it just kind of manifested lots of different problematic eating habits and in different ways. But it was just this kind of thing in the background that I just thought like it is what it is. like lots of women have these struggles. But I was pretty blemic at the time still, and that was my kind of coping mechanism for anxiety, but I just didn't connect like pattern of body self abuse with my complete inability to feel like pleasure The think has to do with controls like you're trying to control your body in different ways and orgasm is letting go ally I think it's a number of different things. I think one if you are not used to being in your body in a pleasurable way then it's really hard to just suddenly expect to be able to like shift into that Yeah like get naked shifted like, okay, I'm so in my body now. and then you put your clothes back on your back into like just this pattern of conant watching when I was eating and then eating then being sick if I ate too much and too much, but like So it was kind of this very and it would happen in phases. It wasn't like my whole life. I wasn't, you know I don't define that period, my twenties is like incredibly ill, but it was just this thing in the background that when my coping mechanism, that I kind of had normalized because gu because I'd gotten eating sort of so young and so it had always kind of been this like you know thing bubbling. But so I think day to day I just I didn't see my body as something to like look after or care for or give joy or pleasure to. It was something to punish. It was something to overve exercise, to starve, to like lambast. When I looked in the mirror, I would just be so meant that like the framework through which I sare and connected to my body was so negative and so mean and so like self abusive Looking back, like of course I wasn't unable to turn up in sex and be like, o, I am this absolute censrual sex goddess. L lick me out I just wasn't. Yeah of course. And you needed do. No. And it was doing sex therapy that really began to build that I guess a connection to my body that really first and foremost began with care. Yeah of like, okay, you need to first look like work out you look after yourself, Like how you just take care of yourself, how you let yourself feel some pleasure day to day outside of the context of sex. So but I do think the control thing is also really but that kind of feeds into that. if you're like exactly you're very rigid, you're like, okay, mter, that you know, has an impact on then your ability to just like let go and be orgasmic G gott to get in there and sniff them Hello, it's just us sneaking into the podcast, just popping in, just dropping by to say it, haveave you thought about joining our Patreon? Yes, there's lots of nice things on our Patreon. Isn't that? You get it ad free, which is great. Yeah, lovely, actuallyually, not any of those advers. actuallyually I love advers. Yeah me too. Sorry, we shouldn' be just ling on let's say abbsolutely love adverts. Also you get to watch the episodes O video. yeah. Is that how you describe that? Yeah, that is kind of how you describe it. That's how a sort of elderly person would describe it. We've got full video apps online now. Yeah, it's a fun time. It's a fun time. And you get little little tip bitits of secrets. And most importantly, you're supporting the podcast. You're supporting the podcast?, most importantly do you really It must want me toward Youlease let us keep doing this. be actually your good daddyies. You can find the link to sign up in our single Ladies Instagram bio or go to patreon. com forward slash single ladies in your area So what were the first steps to Finding pleasure in your body in day to day life, like you just said, what' first sort of what's the first step on the journey? So one of the things that stood out for me so much in sex therapy is my sex therapist, Alex Drculia shout Alex because she is just one badass. She is fabulous. And I actually just interviewed her for the audioobook, so she's got a little mat and she talks about this One of the things she got me do early on was to keep a pleasure journal So contrary to what I thought that it would just be about like They go. That's it. Actually what she asked me to do is Every day, write down three to five things that bring you pleasure in your body outside of the context of anything sexual idea was to begin building up that relationship to my body that was premised on pleure and it was judgment free. So she'd get me to write it down, and she'd be very specific like use neutral language. So you know you're so used to criticizing your body. So when you look in the mirror, you're like oh no, is fat, this is u had to describe the The experience and the sensation in a neutral way. So you know it could be something like having the first hot cup of coffee in the morning. I say, I'm holding it in my hands, rather than saying, I've got chipnaail on know my hand looks at, it's just I'm holding it in my hand. It's in this mug. The mug is brown. I'm sipping it. is so delicious and it's warm. and it was just about building up that awareness of pleasurable body sensations And it was just such a like just mental shift for me because I just hadn't Yeah and like felt like, what could it like what does pleasure in my body feel like? I've never the first sip of coffee has never felt the same. Honestly, I'm like,. And although I don't keep a pleasure journal You know, every day now, I feel so much more mindful of those little day to day sensations. likeike you just clock in o, exactly h in the bath. Eactly. I hit a bath. need a minute. Let's have a quick bath, mid podcast. Putting little socks on that I feel on the w. Oh yes I that we're reing you istated gadle! But I think that's what it is. It's mindfulness. It's being when you're present and you're in the moment and you're not thinking about the anxiety, you're not thinking of those bad thoughts. you're present in the moment, but it's retraining your brain to think like that. Towy, and mindfulness ended up being such a big of the whole kind of healing process and actually write quite a bit about it in the book because I've never really been a very mindful person. and I'm not really a meditation person. My boyfriend keeps on trying to get us to meditate together and I keep saying like one thousand percent, I'm so ready to commit to this. And he's like, now. and I'm like, not now, now not now. reallyally irritating timing. but like later. And he's like It's already laid, I'm like. So I need to definitely get back of that. But there's a brilliant book by Dr. Laurie Brotto called Better Sex throughrough Mindfulness, where she lays out her extensive research into the positive impact that really simple mindfulness practices can have on your connection to sex and sexuality And so one of the I mean there's a horray of practices that she outlines, all of which I've tried quite a few which I talk about in the book and they're amazing. But it's just so simple because so much about like in order to be able to really enjoy sex, you need to be able to be present in the moment. You need to be able to step away from the busyness and the chaos and everything of the day And to just get to kind of lock into your body' sensations. and we live so much of our lives now in our heads and not in our bodies. You know We're chronically online, we're on our phones, we're working all the time, I'm constantly scrolling, like consuming so much information. So to be able to get in a more kind of sensation orientated mindset can be really hard, but there are small exercises that can really help make that shift I started doing more like erotic breathing recently to help me do that. which is just like deep breathing, but you go down, you just you take deep breaths, you go into your chest and then your tummy and then to your pelvis and then you really think about your genitals and you just keep on breathing. And honestly, when you do that before having sex, it is so It just gets it just shifts something. why your boyfriend wants you to medit it. This is honestly honestly. Is like sometimes do that while we were getting now exactly. I just take my deep breath and like again, really pulls you into the like present moment. So yeah, a lot of it is just So much of modern life is so antithetical to the kind of things that are so essential to our bod's capacity for pleasure So it's just being able to be present, to be able to be still long enough to feel pleasurable sensations, super simple stuff. like so basic But our lives are so busy and built around productivity. And I think often productivity is just the antithesis of pleasure. When we are obsessed with output and everything being quantified by metrics of productivity, we're not just like being still and slow enough in the moment to be able to really feel what our body is feeling. I'm not saying that we should just all abandon being productive and just be orgasmic ounds great. It does soundree to disagree. Yeah. Listen, maybe that is actually the spill of the book should actually just be that. Be like, quit your job. Get rid of all life stresses and just commititals. Breathe into your job, quit your job and breathe into genitals. That is all I could say actually.' thank you so Thank you for having me. Anbody enjoy the breathwk. I think one of the things that really stood out to me from the book was you kind of exploring sexual experiences that weren't positive in your life. and that is something that I to do A I late twenties, early thirties and it really u changed my The of sex, things had happened had had a real impact on my life. and I think it can often feel like you need to push those things down. I think Many, many people that are listening will have had experiences that are not good related to sex and it feels like you need to push them down and just like not think about them, but they creep and they creep up and I think addressing them and exploring them is kind of the only way to move through them How did you feel writing about them and growing up I I didn't really feel like I had the language to even acknowledge bad things that happened to me sexually So things had happened and growing up like you know my teenage years, and I speak about an incident of sexual assault in the book very early on. I was like seventeen. And at the time, like I know how to think about it or talk about it or process it. because this was pre meTube movement when we did not have the language of consent and the I felt like the Without language, it's really hard to put experiences to make sense of certain experiences. And I just remember like the experience I detail in the book is I was seventeen, I'd been at a party, I think drunk quite a lot. and then someone had sex with me when I was, you know passed out. That's not sex, that's rape. But at the time, I could not use that word and I was like I just remember feeling so like body felt like it was like spliced. L there was a bit of me here, a bit of me there and I just remember going home, we eventually went home the next the next day and justust sitting in the shower and like justust scrubbing my skin being like I can just this didn't did it, I don't know. Like I had no memory of what happened. just someone else had told me And just scrubbing and being like, maybe I can just scrub this experience off. I didn't but what is the experience? I don't know. And I made all these like bets in my head like, okay, well If this happens and I didn't happen that. And just trying to kind of I don't know, just to make sense of something that didn't make sense to me because I didn't have the language with which to describe it or understand it. And I think growing up The first time I was able to name that for what it was was in the midst of the Me too movement when I sat with my friend at dinner. and it was like as M too was, know Meoo movement obviously started with Tana Bg, but really kind of blew up and became kind of part of our popular culture of vernacular in twenty seventeen. And I remember sitting at the dinner table and We kind of just started talking about the broader movement and what was being said online. And then all personal experiences I was like, yeah, this thing happen to me And I have no idea, I don't feel traumatized by it. I don't feel, it doesn't haunt me, but I've never forgotten it And I've never been able to make sense of it. And I feel It's just this weird thing that like lives in my head and I guess lives in my body And that was just the first time beginning to recognize like, okay, this thing is real and it happened Um And I think when you get older and you get more comfortable being talking about these things and acknowledging that, yes, as you said, Hart, it has an impact on your perception of safety in intimacy when you have been violated. When your body has been violated, it is obviously much harder to feel very trusting and open in intimacy even years on because you have your body remembers, like you've And you know, that was one that was the more extreme experience that happened. but you know so much of our early sexual experience. I look back on them and I was like, God, you were a child, You know, with no sex education, no sense of like bodily autonomy, no confidence in your own skin and yet you would like You know, I said in the book like I feelelt like I kind of gave my body to guys in the hopes that they would one tell me what to do with that. But also I just wanted to please other people And sex was just this kind of negotiation in that. It was never about my own pleasure And so I think going back to a question in terms of how I felt about it writing the book, I think that because I've been revisiting these experiences so much over the years through sex talkks, they've become such a kind of formative part of my understanding of my relationship to sex and my body By the time it came to write in the book, I felt just more It's so important that women tell these stories and tell them without shame and you know it doesn't have to be like a neat and wrapped up narrative. like it's I still don't know how to make sense of that experience totally. but I know that it wasn't right and I know that it was I don't feel like heavily traumatized, but I also do carry that. and as a lot of women do. And so I just think the more and I do think the Media movement obviously gave us a language to talk about these things in a way that has allowed for a much bigger, broader conversation about the, you know just the frequency with which this happens. But I think I just felt very intentional with the book. I didn't wanted to kind of I never wanted to feel like Trump Born. I never wanted every story I included in the book was very intentional and I felt was I always kind of wanted to include those personal experiences, one to show like I have no shame around this. And I think every woman should be able to talk openly about the experiences that they don't necessarily need to understand yet. I don't need to understand this to be able to just say this happened. and it's not right, and I'm still grappling with it. and you know very helpful to be acknowledge those things in sex therapy room but also then to map it onto a wider social context in which this has become so normalized And now we're in twenty twenty six, where many years on from the, you know Mu movement going viral. We're having the same conversations. Yeah. L they never end. I just yeah, I just really appreciate you talking about it be not so much this weekend. I guess my next question was kind of about what happened afterwards? like if you've been on like a sexual journey like since finding this freedom, or a lot's happened. It was really wild because I I did sex therapy. I had this orgasm. There was one I stand, which was was the sex therapy? I did it across probably like four to six months. Okay wow. I wasn't doing it like every single week at all. I was doing it like every couple of weeks and it felt like it was the kind of first I didn't realize at the time, I mean dont you never do, but it was like the first chapter in this, I guess, like journey for what word. sexual liberation. Wow. But it was exactly. I want to tell you about my journey of becoming sexually liberated, which was amazing. But it was strange. I don't think you ever like complete therapy, but I had this all guys. I felt like After a couple of months doing sex the, I was like, okay, you know, I'm started se sex talks and you know we agreed that, okay we've covered a lot of territory. we can take a pause like I'm still in touch with Alex. we she's come on sex talks a lot and we just you know I've had some emergency sessions after some terrible days. But I then I was like now I feel more comfortable talking about sex. I'd really reconnected to my body in a way that I think sex therapy gave me this new lens through which to see my body that was no longer through the prism of the eating disorder and through punishment and E was through pleasure. Like your body has this infinite capacity for pleasure And in order to be able to tap into that, you need to learn to look after your body and take better care and to like begin to build this relationship to your body on your own terms. You said at the beginning, like I did it when I was single and In the end, it was like the best thing because I began to build a sexual connection to myself and my body alone without it being mediated by anyone else's expectations or ideas or any kind of pressure to perform. It was just it was about, okay, what is my sexual relationship to my body? What do I like? then So what does it mean to be a sexually liberated woman? Now I feel a bit more confident and now I don't feel like super x when I think about sex and like going in a date, the idea that we might have sex doesn't like terrify me now. So what does that mean? So naturally I was like, okay, well, obviously I need to be able to have like totally casual disconnected sex And then I just managed to somehow meet a sex addict. We very quickly just started having like very, very emotionless casual you know, I was working at home, you'd come over at lunchtime and At the time I was like, this is what it means.m you know, I'm in sexon city and I felt terrible about it. I just not like like guilty vers. I was like, I don't feel good. I guess but it was important like those I had to kind of tryry and figure out what does my relationship to sex mean to me? And I think it's so important to like define your expectations and relationship to sex on your own terms don't think there is any like there's no one right way to do it Cual I've friends who just adore having super casual, you know, like you know, one out sound sex, anything, they just like fantastic. They get so much pleasure and joy out of it. And I'm like, that wonderful. that and then also love you know having relationship sex as well. But great, that just wasn't me, but I didn't know that yet. I was like, m, so I had to try all these hats on to be like, what kind of works And in that process obviously got like really hurot. I was like, this is just, wow, this doesn't feel good. this feels good. But yeah, that was it was kind of a lot of kind of like reaching around for, okay. And I think with that a lot of like, okay there are so many societal expectations around how we should think and feel about sex. And I think because I was running sex talks as well at the time And I started doingig another column for the Evening Standard magazine. like a sex column. I did feel this tremendous pressure to be this sex person, to be this like one time sex goddess. very like Brant Jones energy. And I was just listening to a podcast at Lenina Dunham this morning a re really handy memoir, which is just wonderful. And she says that she was like, you know, people expected me because girls was very particularly in that time. Yeah was really about sex, it was really un knowose about sex and it was really unashamed and exploring sex. peopleeople assumed that she was as Absolutely they would tell her like their deepest ung sex stories would be like very brash with her about sex. And she was like, actually like I was a bit of a prude. I don't think I was like prude. I love hear people' sex stories, but I did feel like I needed to be like een of like sex parties everything And I just like that isn't me. I love talking to other people about their, you know, sexual exploration, but I think Yeah, it wasn't that wasn't gonna to be me. why't you just figure it out? I think it's so interesting because we were talking about this, we were just talking about this about the idea of wanting to have withith the love of your life. Casual sex and then if it happens to be the love of my clients like, okay, well need think about what I actually want then. But do you feel that becausecause talking about dating, do you feel pressure? It's really hard to like distinguish between the like performance for the sake of you know what you talk about and that versus like what is actually true to how you're feeling? Do you guys I think we're very lucky that with this podcast nobody expects anything from us. We've se ab us so low. The idea that we couldnt even get a date is kind of mind blowing It the slowest drama you've ever seen in your life. like No there really dragging this one out So yeah, we've not put ourselves in any kind of expert and nobody's like, oh my Godd, they're dating all the time. like Oh bless them. They're still trying. So you it's good I guess it's good to not have the pressure. It's good have the pressure. I think one thing is like I do feel like I am, I mean, it's so weird probably not compared to many people, but I do still feel quite private about certain things about my life, but also I do love doing the podcast and talking about things and I don't know if you've had this of how dates kind of feel about you having this as your job. So when I was running sex talk itks like full time. so before doing the book, I was doing sex talks like once a month, the main one and then pop ups everywhere.'s something like once a week, minute like constantly constantly constantly talkking about sex and interviewing together And so people would ask me, do you think it puts people off wanting to date you? I was like, well, I don't know because those people don't date me. So I've never met them. So like probably. But like it's a really good filtering system. Yeah. So I definitely think yees, I don't know to the extent to which it's like shaped my day setf. I think early on I was talking so much about S. I felt like I kind of like this is like a very me thing to do have an idea Go hell for leather, like get the app, put that idea on adrenaline, just like go go a hundred miles per hour while like the rest of me is still catching up. And so I was running sex stores, talking interiewing experts, writing about sex, because in this feel like reading every book just so in it and still trying to like catch up to where my body was at having just freshly comeamp part px therapy, newish to my orgasmic life again. there was a little bit of a dissonance there. I definitely think it made me, and I think this' probably more also sound like the times. I was you know in my late twenties, l late twenties, early thirties And I there was more of the narrative, like date for the plot. like just do it for the plot. So I was dating for that motherfucking plot. I was out there being like, o my gosh, you know what it plot? Are the elus have a plot? which is plot. I have said my literally my dating advice is kill the plot. Like you don't know where that plot goes It is the worst a bad plot dating mystery you could realize I was like, you know what, Dating for Blot looks like? It means going to a cabin in the woods on your second date. It means going to stay in a foreign country with a guy you've met for five minutes in a bar five months ago and just talked to on WhatsApp. L it drove me to do things that Loo back, I want to be like, o my gosh, that is so It's just so ludicrous. you don't know someone just because you've chated on WhatsApp. Like you're crazy. My family like put your you, find my friends on. I'm like, what are you gonna do if you see me and like you know where is she a ditch in like you know the middle of like, you know Italian countryside? you're not what are you gonna do? So I think I definitely, but I felt this I don't think it was conscious. I think there was an unconscious pressure I felt to like push myself to do all the things, to have all the experiences I guess in a way than we talked about it at sex talks and it kind of gave me good dating anecdotes. I was also really authentically wanted to explore. because I was like, what does, you know, I'm dating with this new hat on. like you know, there was kind of a lot of excitement around that. but I also yeah, it did put myself in so many situations where I think I'm mental, like just not like not not out safe. Yeah L don ye. And also I think like even things like going away with people early on and you know, generally I like really don't regret of it and also met some wonderful humans in that process and just because it didn't work out doesn't mean like it was, you know bad, although there was a lot of time wasted on anxiety. But things like when you're doing it for the plot, you so aside your emotions and your nervous system regulation. And so like going away with someone on a second day when you don't know them, you are in such like high a You're on to highlight the whole time. you're trying to like kind of this you're acting out this intimacy that isn't there because you just don't know each other That's okay, like it's okay you're early on. like you don't know one another's like little quirks. You haven't, you don't your nervous system is not relaxed around this person yet. But by virtue of being away with someone for like four days, you don't know, you know, I was like, Oh, it's a great way to really quickly get to know someone. Like it was a really great way to get so anxious that you literally can't breathe when you eventually go home. So I think I felt like I had a lot of dating experiences where in the aftermath I felt like I was on to come down because I'd pushed myself to these like dating highs And then I would just crash afterwards and I felt so insecure about it because I'd be like, you know, does this person ligh? And I put so much like there was so much like body anxiety around these high intensity situations with no certainty, with no communication, with no like, So what do you want from this? L So I was just always in that you know, I do think months of my life were spent like edge on edge. And so I think that typified that period. And I do think it's interesting. I now been my boyfriend for a year over a year and a half I met him Like to a month and a half after I got my book deal when I was then going to I knew I would eventually kind of would slow sexs down for a bit and really go into research mode. I did a lot like field research, the book and d I I just think we met at quite an interesting point where I was like, o, I'm not going to date, like I just need to focus on this book. And you know I wasn't bent upon getting, you know collecting anym whileild dating stories. I kind of had my narrative to the book. And that's when we met. I think it's so universal, like this like as women, I feel like we have to like force things and make things happen and just go for it and not listen to our bodies because we just have to get through things And actually, the pleasure comes from listening to yourself, slowing down, being aware, blah, blah, blah all the b ol Tottally, you want like quick fixes. I't w to like slow down to get organ. I don't wan to like slow down to That's I am right now. I'm looking for a quick fix. Aren't we all? I'm always looking. I love a quick fix transformation, like don' go wrong. I love I have bought everything back in the day, you know those PDF like exercise guides that we used to have like we're done like over a decade ago ir, I bought every single one of them. And I would do like a few e but so boring. And then like but it was a transformation that I I to buy a new transformation. The purchase of the PDF It transformates a movie. Wh my not it does I' had microne neededling Blowing up I can see it turns out not right now No you look you do look glowing how was the micronely Oh, it's horrible. Is It it awful, I've never had it done? Should I get it done I want to get my neck done. I don't micro neededled. Well, what is it? Okay is are called Morpheus eight. I've heard about morphheus eight ye. What is it? I don't know, but what I will say is before the doctor did it, he said I said, is it gonna to hurt? And he went, Yes. It will feel like you're being stapled and stap. Yeah know what. I don't want it done. and you went. No, it's okay. Gunk glunk glunk. And then they do these like It's like some sort of radio. I don't really know what it is I got I'm on day five and it's going down. Wow. Okaykay. the things that we do thingsings that we do Beautification A little glowy. Yes. Do you have to have your neck stapled for that? Yes, I think you do. Okay listen. PDFs. They were such a nice P man I love. Purchasing a PDF as a perception of transformation was such a sock. transforming. Now we have to get kind painful. Oh gosh But it was all over my face. My face is it's just my neck is your face looks. I than so the flow is It's obvious ye staplest get too much credit for a lot of the face is your own face before before. Yeah. But I think a glow up makes you so me and Harry also talk about Fissons. So I like a frison,s like that's my energy That's what gets me through the day. likeike the idea of having a fris on or thinking about a fris on or maybe seeing someone who might have a fris on just saying.r sayiss on. I love bit flirting and when I I do like do something that's like makes me feel I mean, guy's going to be like, Oh, I would have dated you, but I kind of like girls who've had the next schedule. No one The difference in this is going be inacceptable to literally everyone, probably including myself But it's giving you that little slightly. L little bit of an edge. Aittle bit of confidence, little bit of like hard. Pro looks great today. Listen, I used to laminate the PDF's and just laminating them made me feel. Absolutely. Andend I had a skip in my step. Absolutely just from the lamination process. That is she just a laminator Soa, you're on my this stage. mind? No that is that's of course. that just gives it a little bit of, you know, ye. confidence. today. Emma, thank you so much for coming on. so. Everyone can get your book. Emma, your book is out. Oh my goh,. Thanks. It came out yesterday. It came out now So wild. Oh my God. It's a very weird process because you spend so long alone writing it and living it and then suddenly it is Yeah out in the world and everyone knows about your sex life. It an experience People can find it in bookshops. They can. That's where you get books. Yeah audiob book. I put an audio book. I put on my sexiest, sulturriest voice. That's I put a sexiy s. Oh, I should try and do that. Genital breathing. Oh my God, I did a genital mindfulness as an added extra. sorry, add mindfulness breathing exercise.. But I got so into it when I was doing it I cannot remember when I recorded. It was supposed to be five minutes and it was eighteen minutes. and I was just like, So we just breathed into our clitoris. It comes with a free orgism. And the end the producer was like A like I was like that did you like I can't rush it though. I can't rush it,'t rush it. So any one basically. If anyone listenens to the full eighteen minutes like props to you, but you can just dip in and ye d be. I loveuff. I love it. We love you. buuy pleasure now. Buy the pleasure in your life who doesn't want more pleasure in our lives ye get your neck stir pulled Get some plan an orgasm. Have an orgasm instead. it getet a vibrator. Oh that work That cld. staple that clip. sweet w. too far reewind. reewwind. kiss someone. Amy, you just got a lunch. And the book's out now. Pleasure. Why didn't you get your hands on some pleasure And also thank you to An so much. I'm a business lady. I'm straight to selling. We' gott to sell. Al thank you so much us for com it, wasn't it? Yeah. Really, really interesting. Yeah. Sex therapy Yeah never even thought it. I never even thought of it. as a woman on her own. It's a sort of thing where I'd like Well, if me and my partner aren't having great sex or something, maybe we'd go together as a couple. I Didn't even think about it on my own. Yeah, because you feel like you're turn up and they'll be like, Ohh, what's the problem? you're like Can't get me Right, Well, I can't really solve that. Right. Well, I want me money back on Virgin Island. Did you see that? TV show where you lually begin born again at birdgin? Yeah. I'm ready. Yeah Snd me back Yeah, it's only two months. h you can go on Virgin Island? weeks. But before that it was a long time as well. I don't know if you call a fiper Virgin Island no offence I can be some really disappointed to be away from virgin. Al Okay, well, I'm not going on Virgin Island. but I might go to sex therapy. I think you should. I love therapy. Yeah becausecause my worry would be like, ye, so you get there and they're like, o so yeah just work on this for next time. You're like, can't do the homework.'t The homework is inside what Litally is inside It's inside of yourself. It's your