Evaluating Mice and Final Verdicts

BBC Sounds, Music, Radio Podcasts Hi, I'm Xing Singh, and I'm Simon Jack, and together we host Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast exploring how some of the world's richest people made their fortunes . And we're back for a new season with a brand new lineup of billionaires. Yeah, global pop icon Beyonce. Hollywood movie director Steven Spielberg. Football superstar Christiana Renalo, anyone? And as ever, we're asking you to decide whether they're good, bad or just another billionaire. That's good, bad, billionaire. Listen first and BBC Sounds . Hello, I'm Greg Foot and welcome to Sl ice Bread, the show that investigates the Wonder Products promising to make you happier, healthier, or greener. Each episode we follow the crumbs of evidence to find out if one of your suggested Wonder Products is indeed the best thing since Slice Bread or Marketing BS and today's suggestion comes from Tim Crothers from West Bromwich. Welcome Tim. Hello. You're not in West Bromwich today, though are you, Tim? You are in Spain on holiday. Yeah, that means the weather is much better than it is back home. Well, we appreciate you joining us. And it is quite apt, isn't it? That we are connecting remotely by computer because today's Wonder Product is ergonomic keyboards and mice as well . Ergonomic, love, I'm going to do my best Susie Dent impression here. Ergonomic relating to or designed for efficiency and comfort in the working environment. Show us your keyboard? Yeah, so here it is for all. Did you bring this on holiday especially for the recording? I did, yeah. But no t shirt in my hand luggage, but I've got a keyboard Good man, good man. You actually held up two halves of a keyboard there. Yeah, it's called a split keyboard. So half the keys form a right hand or on one module and then there's a little keyboard between them so you can basically have the bit wherever you need for your hands. It looks like there's some extra keys. There's some kind of chunky keys in the middle. Yeah, it's all a bit strange, but I fell down in the rabbit hole. So how many hours a day do you spend at a computer, Tim? I work as a software engineer, so yeah, I'm desk based like a lot of people. I feel this is going to be a companion episode to our previous slice bread on standing desks, obligatory mention, you can find that, as well as all other slice bread episodes over on BBC Sounds. So what issues were you having Tim with a regular keyboard? I started getting some thumbpin . Nothing serious, but I thought, ooh, that's not right. I need to think a bit more about how I'm going to survive thirty years or more at a keyboard . Saw other engineers who have like carbon tunnel and thought I don't want that . So in the end I bought this completely mad looking ergonomic keyboard and it's been great. It's definitely unique. I'm really looking forward to discussing it with the experts. And do you have an ergonomic mouse as well ? I don't. I have the mouse that I was given by my employer, which is an Apple Magic mouse . And that's never bothered me, but I'm interested to know, is it worth spending more on an ergonomic mice? Interesting. So we'll talk to them about whether it's helpful to split your keyboard in half like you've done. Also whether an ergonomic mouse is useful . Anything else that you want us to look into today ? I played around with the key layout so it's no longer quirty. Is there any sort of evidence around changing our keyboard layout? I also love the question that you included in your original email . You wrote there is a whole world of crazy keyboards out there. Are there simpler steps that everyone should be taking . That email address, by the way, if you would like to suggest a wonder product is sliced. Bread at BBC. co and we've had a few voice notes in on this to our WhatsApp number which is zero seven five hundred six eightty zero seven including, this one from listener Tom. Hi Greg. I saw the RSI pane in my hands from too much time using a computer. There seem to be hundreds of different keyboard and mouse designs, including trackables, touchpads, handshake style mice , all claiming to help solve the problem and all at different price points. Do any of these actually help, or am I better off sticking with my current standard setup and just trying to take more breaks? Thanks, Tom. I've seen these trackables as well . Are they going to be the thing that finally gets rid of the humble mouse? Well, to discuss, I've got two more guests joining us today . They're going to have to keep their excitement under control and not shift to an alt subject , Tim. Can I escape? Hey I'm going to introduce one of the guests now. A second will then join us in a bit. So welcome, ergonomist, member of the Chartered Institute of Ergonomics and Human Factors, and founder of Inspired Ergonomics Nikola Adams. Hello, Nicola. Hi there. What does inspired ergonomics do, Nicola? We provide ergonomic assessments to really help organisations create healthier , more inclusive workspaces. I found myself sitting up straighter as soon as you started telling I have that effect . Well, let's start, I think, with some of the common problems caused by using our computers so much. In his voice note, listener Tom says he has RSI pain, repetitive strain injury. What is that? It refers to that repetitive movement, the sustained posture, the repeated forceful exhaustion or abuse , and most commonly that wrist or shoulder issue . So things like carpal tunnel, cubital tunnel or non specific diffuse pain. So RSI seems to be a bit of an umbrella term, describing a family of kind of wrist and hand problems . A specific one that was mentioned in the voice note is carpal tunnel syndrome . To explain how carpal tunnel syndrome might be linked to mouse or keyboard use, we spoke to hand surgeon Ryan Tricket . Carpal tunnel syndrome is very commonly affects around five percent of the population . But interestingly, the incidence of carpal tunnel syndrome in office workers is not dramatically different when compared to the general population . There's no proven mechanism by which keyboard use causes the pathophysiological changes in carpal tunnel syndrome. That's not to say that ergonomics are not important . Laptop users in particular tend to lean heavily, hunched over with bent elbows to best reach the keyboard and trackpad. By addressing these issues with a better keyboard, higher screen and ultimately straight er elbows, the tingling problem can often be sorted without the need for surgery. Thanks, Ryan. Your job today, basically, Nicola, is to help us avoid having to go see Ryan. Let's add some practical tips here then. I'm conscious we don't want to turn this episode into a live desk assessment, but I'm here at my laptop. Give us an idea of what you check when you do a workplace ergonomic assessment. So first of all, I want to have a bit of a discussion with you trying to find out what those symptoms are and what you've tried. Laptops are a big cause of problems . So when you're using a laptop, a lot of people will raise it and then that will mean that they have to flick their wrists up or hunch their shoulders up to use that keybo ard. So we always want to use a separate keyboard or when using a laptop if you're going to be using it for long periods of time. Does it also matter how far away the laptop or indeed the keyboard is away from my hand . You want to keep it nice and close to the front of the desk, close to your hand so you're not having to roll your shoulders forward or extend your arms forward to reach that keyboard. I mentioned our previous episode on standing desk. In that our expert, physiotherapist told us that it's not always about good versus bad positions. It's more about ensuring that you're moving about a lot and not getting locked into one position. Is the same true here, Nikola? Yeah, we want to avoid those static postures and movement is really protective. We just need to ensure that neutral postures are adopted as much as possible because that may be compounding factors which mean people don't move as much they should. One problem you had though, Tim sounded like it didn't come from an incorrect position or a lack of movement of your wrist or your shoulders. You had the pain in your thumb from too much regular movement of the thumb , you think? Yeah, I think depending on what worked on the computer, I think I was using the command key on a Mac too much and it was just awkwardly positioned. So that's sort of where the keys are situated on the keyboard. Is that Horacei,? Nkola It's a repetitive strain. That's a strain. Yeah, it's an over extension of the thumb, absolutely. Well, it sounds like what you turn to, Tim was exploring different keyboard layouts, which is I want to get nerdy about that in a bit. I really do, but let's start with some simpler ergonomic options that people could try to help alleviate the common problems that we've just been talking about. To help us explore all this, I'd like to welcome onto the show, a keyboard enthusiast and web developer who runs a popular YouTube channel all about workflow and design, Ben Valak. Welcome Ben. Hi Greg, thank you for having me. For you and other people who go deep into keyboards and mice , is it because you're trying to avoid or fix chronic pain or is it just because you want to use a computer as quickly and as efficiently as possible ? Yeah, it's a bit of both. I think for me I wanted to prevent it. You know, I've always been really sort of interested in the idea of exploring what is the optimum way of doing things and with a career in software development that this is something quite clearly I'm concerned about. I want to make sure I don't get RSI . I think the closest I ever got to it was feeling tingling in my hands and that was as a result of using a wrist pad, you know, sort of one of these things that you're supposed to have to improve these things. Actually ended up going down sort of a road of hover typing, so not having any rest at all. So this just starts this big journey of optimizing your posture, optimizing hardware, of optimizing the layout. I've gone through so many different kind of approaches to get to this point where I feel super comfortable . Well, before you reveal the setup that you've ended up with, I'd like us all to go on a bit of an ergonomic adventure. Level by level, starting with keyboards, and then we'll turn to mice at the end. Now from looking at the products out there, it seems like if level one is your basic flat computer keyboard . Level two wave shaped, so called fixed split keyboards. Ben, tell us about those . Yeah, so I think you're talking about these keyboards that are still one fixed piece. They just put a little gap between the two halves within that fixed piece of hardware and then they'll add a curve in the rows. It puts the keys slightly more in alignment with the way your hands sort of sit. So by taking the two halves, rotating them a little bit that allows your wrist to go back towards neutral. Yeah, not only the keys splayed out, but the keyboard isn't flat. There's kind of a wave vertically as well. There's essentially bit of a hill there in that gap between the split keyboard. One example is the Logitech Ergo keyboard. It costs one hundred and fifteen pounds. It claims that you will type more naturally with a curved split keyframe that improves typing posture and that the sloping form reduces muscle strain on your wrists and forearms. So Nicola, could a fixed split keyboard like this improve typing posture and reduce muscle strain? It does help reduce muscle strain for some people. That hill that you're talking about does create a more natural handshake position. When you say a handshake position, you're saying essentially if you hold your hands out in front of you flat, palms down to the desk, it tilts your thumbs up slightly in the middle. Exactly, right, exactly. And that just takes the mode of the smaller nerves and tendons. The other thing you can do is to tilt your keyboard. So a standard keyboard is often raised a little bit at the back using tilt legs. This fixed split logite keyboard has tilt legs as well, but these ones can raise the keyboard at the front, which would tilt your fingers downwards. Nichola, they say this will keep your wrists in a natural and comfortable posture . Would you agree? That tilt downwards is a good idea but you have to factor in your sitting height so you're still floating your hands down above the keyboard and that can really help with wrist extension or for a lazy typist who finds it harder to float above the keyboard, not that fixing of the wrist on the wrist. Ben you were saying the wrist rest actually didn't help you. You felt that tingling. You got rid of it. Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things for me was I just became acutely aware of where I was putting pressure. So the conventional squishy wrist pad for me was just too much pressure just at that shallow part of the wrist. So I moved away from that and embraced this idea of h over typing. So any wrist rests are really for resting between typing rather than using whilst your typing because otherwise that encourages wrist anchoring or awkward deviated wrist postures to reach the keys whilst you're typing. So hang on Nicola, these things that you buy as wrist rests to put in front of your keyboard. You're saying you should not be resting on them while typing. They're just for resting your wrist . Exactly . Tim, is that a surprise? I think that's quite surprising. It seems like that's where you want to be holding it while you're typing. Yeah, it sounds like these could hinder rather than help, Nicola. Yes, in fact, if you're really fixated on fixing your wrist on the wrist rest , it's better to place it on your palm rather than the delicate wrist area just because it's so delicate . Okay, on to the next stage of our ergonomic adventure. Your next option up is a split keyboard that is literally physically split in two, like the one that you held up for us earlier Tim. Yeah, these keyboards suggest all sorts of different positions you can have your split keyboard in to ensure the best ergonom ics they say, from having them a small distance apart all the way up to having them shoulder width split, which they say you'll instantly notice opens up your chest and your back is now straight. How wide do you split yours, Tim? I think I'd generally just throw it down and see where it lands, but I think it's probably just under shoulder width apart. I would add just be careful where you're placing the mouse as well because you don't want to be overextending out reach to the mouse. Then what was your experience like with a split keyboard? Yeah, a big step in the right direction, very clearly from day one. So Tim Your Z ay Moonlander keyboard currently costs around two hundred seventy five pounds. However, not only is it split into two halves , but the keys are also aligned differently. Now, if you look at a normal keyboard, you'll probably see that the keys don't fall directly underneath each other. They're slightly offset. Your keyboard, though, Tim is what's called columnar because the keys are in this neat grid layout of rows and columns. Do you like it in that orientation? Yeah, I think when I switched to this, it was just so strange and elegant that it was just part of the new experience, but as you get used to it, it's like, yeah, this is actually really good. It makes sense when you're touch type and you just go up and down. You don't have to worry about going side to side. Ben, how big a deal is this column narr setup. Did you find it useful? Yeah, absolutely. This is again one of these big steps towards optimizing for the home row position. You know, it brings the keys that are on the row above and the row below much easier to access from that home row as Tim was saying, you can just move your fingers up and down and you're at that key. It's a simpler move. It's less kind of taxing mentally. Ben, what is the home row ? So the home row is, you know, if you feel the keys on your normal keyboard, you'll see F and J have got two little tiny bumps. Oh yeah to encourage you to put your index fingers there. So when you're typing you want to keep your fingers on there and then if you go out your middle finger ring finger little finger the keys going outwards on the keyboard on that middle row, they're your home keys . So the idea being that if you think about the goal of reducing overall finger movement, if you've got your home keys, your forefingers in their home keys, you don't want to move those fingers more than one key distance from that home position. Gotcha. And Tim, your keyboard has got those extra keys that we talked about at the start kind of diagonally coming out of the bottom where your thumbs are. What do you use those for? Well, you can use it pretty different things. I've got SpaceBar Enter . It lets you program the keys. So I've got one that sort of launches different apps or you can have a button that's just launched zoom for me, that kind of thing or take a screenshot. You can just customize it and make any key do what you want more or less. Nikola, what do you think of these innovations like the columnar layout and the thumb keys? Could they be useful? In the workplace, I haven't seen them, to be honest. There is obviously a steep learning curve, but it sounds fantastic if you manage to adopt it to what is really relieving your fingers and your hands of any pain. Yeah, I mean, I think we're getting into more a niche of a niche now, but I wanted to go right up to the complexity level. You were talking about remapping the keys earlier, Tim. So different keyboard modifications . Is that common then to change around where the letters actually are on your keyboard It absolutely is once you get to this level it's also one of the hardest things I've ever done. I think changing from querty is extremely hard. It feels almost horrible you're trying to get that muscle memory back into a new keyboard layout. Having said that, it does get easier. I've changed about four or five times now to completely different layouts and it has been easier every time. And this can be done actually on a normal keyboard with software called Kanata, which is an open source free application that runs across platform. So even without buying custom hardware, you can still make some really significant improvements to the way you use a keyboard and just massive reduction in stretching those fingers. Nicola , is there much ergonomic benefit to be gained from using a different keyboard layout? It comes down to how much task we've got to learn it, but it's been very interesting listening to Ben how he's adjusted it to suit his way of working. Okay, I'm going to leave our ergonomic adventure there. There are so many other options that we can get into that I don't think we've got time and they're way too niche because Ben I,'ve got to come to you. You are sitting there in your most ergonomic peak keyboard setup . You're sitting on a comfortable chair, you're leaning back slightly, you've got your hands. They don't look like they're on keyboard. They look like they're they've got gloves . Are you wearing keyboard gloves? Walk us through it . So this is the Sparboard, and as you say, I'm on a reclining chair. So the idea is you have a cluster of keys around each fingert ip. And instead of actually having to jump up a whole row or down a whole row, you flick the tips of the fingers forwards or towards you or even to the sides. And it's a similar setup with the thumb. And what's that underneath your palm . Yeah, so this is basically the mouse . So we've got a roller ball on the left half and another roller ball on the right half. The right one is for mouseing, the left one is for scrolling. You probably can't even perceive that movement. It's so minimal. And then you can just switch between the mouse and keyboard with almost no effort at all. Can we just have a moment for the words typing to mouseing? I've been learning so much learning so much new lingo today. Nikola watching this, are you in awe of the ergonomic set up? I am and those track balls they're really helping reduce that shoulder movement. Also the fact that you're reclining, Ben. Do you feel you're in a position that leaves you as kind of relaxed as humanly possible so this was actually inspired by some research that NASA did. And they learned the neutral body posture and they looked at what position the body assumes in zero gravity. Using a reclining chair with your feet slightly elevated on the stool is extreme ly close to this zero gravity position. You know, this eliminates a huge amount of the problems that people have holding their head up all day long, holding their arms up all day long, and even holding their torso up all day long, sitting up at a desk is a hugely taxing thing on your upper body to do for the whole day. Of course, I think it's pretty obvious if I was to spend all of the day in this chair without doing any exercise it would also have its own problem. So I do combine it with a good exercise routine as well. Tim, you are watching this and thinking I need to level up ? Exactly. It's always tempting but I feel like I'll raise the anger of my wife if I spend any more money on keyboards. I was going to say Ben, you know, there's a hefty price tag. The Valboard costs around eight hundred and seventeen pounds currently . Not cheap. I think there are different levels you can achieve the same kinds of things. I mean this chair is eBay hundred pounds, you know, these are abundant on the second hand market. It's quite achievable. Gotcha. For those of us who can't quite afford eight hundred pounds for a pair of keyboard gloves , or if you'd like to stick with a traditional keyboard and a mouse, let's talk mice for a second. So listener Tom asked about a vertical mouse , also known as a handshake style mouse, so again, what we're talking about in this handshake position thumbs up. Logitech use that phrase for their MX vertical mouse, which they say put your hands into a natural hand shake position that reduces muscular strain by ten percent. Nicola, can a vertical mouse with this handshake position relieve stress on your hand and help reduce some of these common problems? It is one of the most common products we recommend. It's a vertical mask because it does exactly that. It puts the wrist into that nice handshake position and turns it around. If you're resting a wrist on the table, it's on that bony part instsead of the delicate wrist area, but changing their hand position is a really good idea. Right. Now I've seen different angles quoted for different natural handshake positions. Is there an optimum angle, Nikola? Some research around it, but it doesn't actually say one particular number . And listener Tom asked about whether a tracker ball or a track pad could help reduce his RSI . Is there any benefit to rolling your fingers over a ball or moving them over a pad rather than holding and clicking a mouse ? So the benefit of a track ball is that you can move from your shoulder rather than having to move from your wrist when moving that mouse around. So zoning to the shoulder movement because the mouse is static and you're just moving the track ball rather than having to rotate the arm or the hand around to move that mouse . Tim, you said you're not experien cing an issue with your mouse , but would you consider levelling it up ? Yeah, it sounds like maybe a trackball could be quite useful in terms of getting the bigger and more gross muscles involved, but knowing me I',ll probably just stick with this until I get some pain. Well everyone, that was quite the ride and I'm excited to hear your final thoughts so I can decide whether I should consider getting a fix split or a split or a tent or a colony or keyboard. Nicola, you first are ergonomic keyboards and mice the best things since sliced bread are they SB or are they marketing BS ? I would say they're conditional sliced bread . They definitely have their place, but don't start with kits, start with you, see how you'll sit up, see how you're working, see how you're feeling, if you're taking those regular breaks if you're moving. And if after that, an economic keyboard about it is what's needed. Fantast ic. What do you think then? Are different types of keyboard SB or BS ? I think definitely the SB. The normal keyboard to me is just a disaster really. I think it's pretty appalling that the big tech companies are not doing anything to improve on the ergonomic sort of situation with their keyboards. It's just the same every single time. And they have the same odd problems putting modifier keys all the way around the outside. It's just impossible to use those in any comfortable way. So absolutely I think it's a journey that everyone should consider. Tim, what do you think listening to all this? Are you going to stick with the split keyboard you've got? Are you going to go even further? What about the mouse? I I'm think happy with where I've gone. I will look into the track ball after this. It's really interesting to hear how that is more efficient, but yeah, I think just thinking about how much I'm using these things as well is really important to make sure I'm not over using it . With that, I shall wrap up this episode of Sliced Bread. A big thank you to Tim, Nicola, and Ben for joining me. And if you are listening to this and thinking, Greg, I have a wonder product I would really like you to investigate, please do send it over either on email to sliced dot bread at baccoto