Financial Decline and Brand Discontinuation

Hello, welcome to Toast, the BBC radio four series that digs into brilliant businesses, brilliant brands that once promised so much, but somehow They still ended up toast I'm the BBC's business journalist Sean Farrington, joined of course by Sam White, entntrepreneur, B expert. Sam has no idea what's coming up. We keep her in the dark so we get her reactions as she hears the story herself for the first time. And this episode, we're checking out a product that many people may well remember from their childhood You may be surprised to learn it only disappeared relatively recently Hello, how are you? I am very well. I can see that you get the usual level of joy at me being in the dark and you not being in the dark. Of knowing what we're talking about one hundred percent. Well, it is quite good, particularly this one. I'd be so surprised if you knew the story behind it, but you may have a sense, literally a sense of what this was like in the day. It was a product that was first made in Sheffield And it became familiar because it was present in a lot of British bathrooms So there were slogans attached to it. Mother knows best. Now wash your hands. Medicated toilet paper Eyes or medicated toilet paper was stiff Brown cootated in disinfectant, sold not as a luxury, but as this is a quote, an invisible guardian against risks to health. This is ringing no bells, is it? It does not, but I think it's fabulous. Well it will be. Let's start where it all began. In the year seventeen ninety three. onn the outskirts of Sheffield and Newton Chambers, one of England's largest industrial companies. Now they made everything from kitchen grates and ovens to military tanks, but it was their disinfectant called Isel that really took off, and it was discovered almost by accident as Joan Jones, a Sheffield historian and IsL expert, explains In eighteen eighty five, the firm appointed a very talented analytical chemist Jason Hall Warrell and he started experimenting with the byproducts of coal because they had their own coke ovens for their furnaces And the story is that Workers at the coke covens were getting some of the tar on their hands and arms and they noticed that their cuts and abrasions were healing very quickly. The chemist, Mr. Warrell, did all sorts of experiments And he discovered that this byproduct had Germicidal high antiseptic qualities. Legend has it that it was the anagram of the name of Warl's favourite sister who was Liza And then they started a fantastic advertising campaign. They had a full page in the Times in eighteen ninety three, telling the nation that if they used ISIL, disease would be kept at bay So there you go. there's Joan Jones, Sheffield historian. I'm sure Warrel's favorite sister these is. I'm not sure was his favorite sister. Well, maybe they didn't know what it was all going to become at that point, but that was where Isel disinfectant was born Before long, the toilet paper followed the disinfectant, this tough brown mananilla sheets. so a little bit somewhere between paper and cardboard like tracing paper and had at school. Yeah. Yes. Here we go. I told you that it would be bringing back some memories. So public toilets here in the UK didn't really hit the mainstream until the late Victorian era. But when they did, It gave Newton Chambers a big opportunity. So they promised local authorities free toilet paper. for their new public lose as well as schools and hospitals as well If they put in a bulk order, for the liquid disinfectant Sound like a good plan. Yeah, I mean, loss leader, put the toilet paper in, charge out for the disinfectant So, changing times very quickly, the nationalization of the coal and steel industries in nineteen forty seven saw Newton chambers part with those elements of the business But the ISL division was going strong. The byproduct had become The The BBC Sally Goldsmith made a documentary for BBC Radio four, All about IsSL Now wash your hands, and she spoke to Angie Byird who worked on quality assurance at the Isisel Factory The first things I had to do was go around testing the huge rolls of toilet paper as that came in before they were actually converted into the small toilet rolls becausecause if they weren't the right grammage or the right tensile strength they would break on the machines and cause havoc and obviously as well the right absorbency because if It didn't go down the toilet and flush down the toilet. it would cause havoc in people's toilets as well you see, what I remember about IsSel is that it wasn't very absorbent. Oh no, it never was, but there was a certain limit. It never actually peaered down the toilet but it got wett and eventually it would break up and go away. research that went into this su I thought my Saturday job was bad. Right, let's bring in doror Alice White, digital editor at English Heritage and historian of Psychology. Alice previously wrote about IsSL when she worked for the weelcome collollection. Alice. Hello. Wlcome to Toast Hello, thank you for having me. Let's just talk a little more about exactly this product felt like Well, I think you have to bear in mind what job we're thinking that this is going to be doing So there was a lot of descriptions in the research that I found of scraping the sort of technique for how you'd use this, which I think is probably a bit different. Not the word we'd use for what we want to be doing with our toilet paper today Sraping some. Oh yes. I'm not going to say I remember it fondly I remember the exact opposite and the trepidation of going to the bathroom at school because of the toilet roll Yeah, I don't remember it from school, but I do have vivid memories of going to the public toilets at the seaside and you know, you really, really didn't want to have to use that stuff if you had a packet of tissues in your bag. That would be preferable. Now much was made of the fact it was coated in disinfectant as well So I think we might raise a few eyebrows today at some of these marketing claims that were made for it. one At said, an Isel roll puts the hallmark of hygiene in your home ing you and others spend sixpence for safety on an IsSL medicated toilet roll Alice, wasas there anything in there that actually suggested it was making things safer for people. So a lot of the claims were based around what people knew the disinfectant could do rather than what the toilet paper could do. So the disinfectant did disinfect But one researcher wrote in their notes, It seems that the antistic or disinfectant qualities of the paper are nill. It is pure eye wasash So they were fully aware that this wasn't doing anything at all to benefit the paper, to benefit your backside. But what's really interesting, I think from my research is what people thought about it. So they used branding on the paper green cross on a white background to have this really medical image and surveys showed that people thought it was more hydrogenic. And the other thing was that this association of toilets with dirt was so strong that some people thought that toilet paper was unclean. So a lot of people ask thought that the disinfectant was to clean the paper itself so that you were bringing something clean into your home rather than something dirty Rellion Benefits for your backside. You should have worked in the marketing team, Alice So in nineteen fifty six, Newton Chambers commissioned researchers to find out whether customers were ready for soft toilet tissue I remember worrying about getting paper cuts in an area that you wouldn't wish to be getting a paper cut. Did any of that come out in the research at all, Alice? Yeahes, so I think it's worth remembering the context of this. Brz, were used to hard toilet paper and one other brand of toilet paper, its selling point was that it wouldn't give you splinters So really there's sort of a scale of hardness or discomfort that we're looking at here. and By nineteen fifty six when this market research is happening, they were writing that the market was within site of saturation. So basically, not everyone was buying toilet paper yet So the psychologists found that in Glasgow, a lot of people were still using newspaper because there was a dislike of spending money on something you were literally go to flush away your disposal In Yorkshire, especially amongst men, softness was seen as unnecessary, a bit frivolous and also a little bit worrying that it might not be up to the job of a good solid manly wite. T, right Whereas London looked quite different. So women and more cosmopolitan consumers we're much more open to the idea of soft toilet tissue What the research showed was that the trend everywhere was heading towards softfter paper, but there were big differences in who was going to get there fastest nineteen seventy three, Newton Chambers actually sold its Isel division. to Sirling Winthrop One man who remembers Isael well from the nineteen seventies is Nicholas Goodwin. Thank you for joining us on Tast, Nicholas Gness, I never thought I'd end up talking fifty years on about eyes or medicated toilet rolls. Why was it a standard feature in your family home then My mother got a sales job with Stirling Health who sold Isel toilet paper. She would go around to the local co op and take orders for stock The problems were often if the shelves were empty, she had to fill them up as well And so therefore, we carried around the boot of the car boxes of visel toilet paper, which of course smelt Car smelt And it was just that ongoing smell that just never went away. I'm sitting here now thinking goodness people ever buy that, but they did. Well, someone else who remembers Azel pretty well is the writer and broadcaster, Adrian Chiles I was born in nineteen sixty seven and for some reason it was the only toilet paper we ever had in the house. I don't know why my mom bought it, but I didn't know to ask the question because I thought everybody used it And then I went to school. and of course That was what there was in school toilet. So it still seemed normal to me Untar noticed the other kids didn't like going to the toilet because they couldn't deal with the toilet paper other strange children And then it only gets to the time when They're old enough to come round for tea Then I noticed there was a difference because they go I can't use that toilet paper. It's horrible For me ular, that's all I knew. so I've got kind of a a fondness for it. I've never been able to sort of shake it off I'd love to have a pack now just for nostalgia's sake. I'm not fully aware of its many limitations I used it til I was seven or eight, never did me any harm Thank you very much to Adrian. You haven't got any knocking around have you, Nicholas No, not anymore Nicholas, do stay with us because we're going to be coming back to you later. Nicholas is quite the expert in this area, Sam. There's plenty more questions we have to ask. Quite the accolge. Yeah I know. And we will tap into that a little later. What are you thinking at this point, Sam? This product became the main part of IsSL I'm just thinking that getting very good distribution early regardless of whatever the product is or the sort of consumer response, it shows you that distribution goes a long way. And Alice I mean, it sounds crazy. At one point, the British Civil Service arranged some research, didn't they on what sort of toilet paper should be used in the public sex tub? Why did they do that Yes, the British Civil Service knew that there was an increasing demand for soft toilet tissue in its buildings But they also knew that it was going to be really expensive to make the change from about three hundred seventy thousandars a year to nearly a million say They commissioned some research from their scientists to what didid that research go? So Graham Wilson at the London School of Hydrogen and Tropical Medicine led the investigations and he was extxtraordinarily thorough He carried out what is called a porosity test So in those experiments, a finger was pressed onto the paper with a stool sample underneath and then onto a petri dish And then they grew whatever came through the paper onto that petri dish to say germs come through? Was it safe to switch And the conclusions are really, really stark. Soft toilet paper, In their words almost in direct contact with fecal material Basically the British Civil Service couldn't be trusted. definitely washed their hands. So they ruled it a public health risk to make the change. Not only was it saving the money, but it was also saving them from the dangers of awful outbreaks. So is that why it lingered for so long, Alice? I think partly it was this idea that institutions needed to maintain public safety and there was a little bit at the idea that something luxurious was also nickeable So people would potentially steal the soft toilet tissue, but nobody wanted to steal the hard kind So toilet roll, as we know, an essential item. IsSel was Lord of the Bue at this point, a massive brand found in many British homes, with the business expanding right across Europe, right into Africa Comfort was creeping up the agenda though. IsSel recognized the need for softer paper. So why was it wiped out by competitors IsL had dominated the market for decades, but they weren't the only ones making medicated toilet paper. Does that surprise you, Sam? It does ye Jays were doing it too. So they were known for their disinfectant. J's Fluid got in on the act of toilet roll spinoffs as well and then a new rival landed on the scene So Alice, rivals Galore. whoo were these new rivals? What did they promise? The big threat rising was Andrex with their soft toilet tissue and their effective advertising slogans soft strong and L. And they also highlighted the difference that toilet paper should be soft, not stiff shiny or scratchy. So they were really they were really emphasizing the difference and they backed it up giveaways and they targeted the people buying the toilet paper. They took out full page advertisements in women's magazines. They encouraged people to try it on the understanding that once people had had a sample of the soft toilet paper, they would be won over to a much nicer experience. Consumer buying decisions are made by women a huge proportion of brands don't market directly to them. And so They are targeting the right demographic with the right kind of ad campaign Yeah, I think one of the things that struck me sort of revisiting the research notes on this was a story that one of the psychologists who was visiting Newton Chambers was a woman And they didn't have an executive bathroom that the women could use. They didn't have anyone high enough in the company to require those facilities IsSL weren't completely blind to the appeal of softer toilet tissue, but as we've heard, research suggesting the mass market was happy with the hard stuff, so five years after Andrex had launched. Isel Soft finally became available. And it was builders is the quote Altogether better than any soft tissue has ever been before. Alice, how did this one do They gave it everything, they advertised it with cherubs, they made it in different colours. But ultimately, IS was known for being hard and that's what their customers wanted. So a gap began to emerge between them and Andrex and Andrex cleared up in the softer non medicated sector. They were in so many homes though, Sam. I mean, feels like a good starting point Js It does. but then people can just get used to things because they've always had them, but then they get something better and you know It's really interesting that you say thatam because one of the slogans that they tested with market research was Mother knownows B amongst the women who are buying toilet paper in their homes They were saying things like, well, how does mother know best if she's never tried this so? How will she know what's best? So yeah So for years under Newton Chambers, attempts had been made to buy this rival firm Jays So Jays had fought back trying to buy the Eisel business Then finally, in nineteen eighty six, Jayss won, it bought the ISel brand from its then owner as Sterling Winthrop. And this is a good time bring Nicholas Goodwin back into the conversation. Nicholas Isael had been Part of your childhood But it became part of your adulthood as well. Just tell us how wasasn't the plan I joined J's as an accountant in the mid eighties. thought I was joining a consumer goods business with lots of exciting products and so on Realizing later that actually J's was all about toilet care. So Jay' wanted to own everything around the toilets and naturally toilet rolls fitted with that Therefore, having ISL was a crucial part of that overall portfolio. And what did the financials look like? how profitable? Be you imagine that the markup on toilet roll, particularly this toilet roll be really good It wasn't very good actually. It wasn't very good, I'm afraid. nowhere near as attractive as I would have liked. But I think again, it was the fact that actually you didn't want to discontinue it because You had a consumer base who took it personally. If you stopped making a product they wanted, it reflected badly on the company as a whole. So it was crucial to make sure your consumer was happy. and therefore, that's why the product stayed within the portfolio for many, many years So Jay' continued making this Isel paper, by this stage only in boxed sheets with steady sales In two thousand six, readers of the Independent got a bit of a surprise when they learned that Iisel Paper was still holding on Part of their look at old brands that refused to die out. It was proudly declared that Isle paper is still on shelves and at sixty nine pence for two hundred and ten sheets in Sainsbury's it's not particularly cheap Jane Howe worked at Jay's as toilet care marketing controller, later moving into the markarketing director role Who was still buying Isel at that point, Jane Certainly most of the letters were about Where can I find it? And they were coming from older people, definitely the older generations, like seven peopleus So I think that The older consumer just wanted to stick with what they knew. So yeah, it was sold in like the smaller chemists. It was a tiny niche brand that was selling to people that wanted it and they were going searching for it. Did the distribution sort of gradually die out then? Yeah, sure. So things like the fact that it was still in Sainsbury's it would have been in waitroros as well at that time because of the age profile of their shopper. it became a bit of a catch twenty two because the fact that sales were declining meant that production was declining and then We had issues with being able to stock the product. So over time, because we bought it in from a third party. so you know, the paper and then the conversion that's getting smaller and smaller. So I guess Nicholas's comment about it wasn't really making money because the cost of it would be going up because we were buying less. So Nicholas as we on the timeline get towards twenty ten Is this where it's starting to get a pretty tough time for Jayays Overall, financially I mean, Jay's was losing money by that stage. had a real challenge because J's made what we call private label products and also branded products. And there's always a conflict between the two because they require different amounts of marketing money They requred different types of R and D and innovation so on So having those both side by side was very difficult and therefore we had to choose which area we werere going for, but also meant selling off the non profitable what we'd call niche brands. and unfortunately, that's where Isel came. so rununning down the sales production of that became key part of us getting back into profit eyes or medicated, toilet paper finally reached the end of the roll. Jane, why couldn't it pivot to soft toilet tissue I do remember a discussion because I was marketing director at that point, could we actually launch it as a moist toolt tissue? So that was actually something that was on the increase at that point. But I mean, I think that Again, the name It was associated with this awful product that nobody really could understand why anybody had used it. So you just couldn't see how you could modernize to a wet wipe and put that name on it. For start, the retailers wouldn't just take it. O consumers going to know what this pho was. You have to spend a lot of money to tell people what they are now So Jane was brutal about it, Nicholas, but were you sad to see it go No. Okay, then S timee for you to step forward with your conclusions about why isel medicated toilet paper ended up going down the pant. I don't think it had a lot of things going for it, did it? It obviously had a niche market So one of the questions that I had running through my head is I wonder if they tried putting the price up Because the people that like it obviously really liked it and I wondered if they would have paid more for it, which might have sorted out some of the margins. But the management team has to move really, really quickly to the thing that the consumers are clearly moving towards And I would say that the medicated scratchy toilet paper as opposed to the soft toilet paper was one of those moments and maybe they had the opportunity to shift. but actually in some ways, I think killed by the power of their own brand. It was exactly what it said it was and everybody associated it with that. And so you know you just couldn't take it in a different direction. But yeah, if I had to really call it, It would be management team not moving quickly enough. What can you learn from a tale like this Oh what can you learn from a tale like this? I mean that consumers are not on a general basis and they can fall in love with the strangest things. But I think from a business perspective, sometimes letting things just drag on for longer than you should do when it's obvious that something is not working probably the lesson to take from it. Sam White toasts resident businessusiness Guru Thanks as well to all of our guests, Joan Jones, Dr. Alice White Nicholas Goodwin and Jane How. Special thanks as well to Sally Goldsmith With her documentary, Now wasash Your Hands Next time on Tast, The future's bright, the future's orange. So why did the UK mobile phone brand made famous by that slogan actually fade just as the future arrived Toast was presented by me, Sean Farrington and produced by Linda Walker. If you enjoyed this episode, then we've covered plenty of other household names, including Little Chef, Commodore compomputers, the Soft drrink, Sunny Dellight. You can listen to all those and plenty more all our previous episodes in the Sliced Bread feed on BBC Sounds. Toast is a BBC Audio North production for radio four and BBC Sounds You can email us with suggestions for future topics at toast at bbc. co. u. Thank you so much for listening. Hi there, I'm Dilly Carter, and this is everything you need to know about my new podcast, Sort Your Life Out Unpacked I interview a different celebrity every episode. They bring me in three items from their home that reveal the most about them and we unpack the stories behind those items. And I give you a few tips and tricks along the way Some of the guests that I'm going to be interviewing are TV presenters like Lorraine Kelly, reality stars like Kerry Katona, podcast Ryalty like Elizabeth Day, and of course our very own Stacy Solomon. 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