Cognitive Reframing and Controlled Surrender

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It's like having a lab, a lecture hall, and science museum in your pocket. TikTok is where wonder is shared where curiosity turns into discovery and where millions learn something new every day A about time we revisited neuroscience of fear. Fear is the mind killer. Yeah, we got the guy who was featured in free solo. Yeah. not dying, ascending that cliff face. Yes. Coming up on Star Talk. spepecial edition Wh Welcome to Star Talk. Y place in the universe where science and pop culture collide Star talk begin right now. This is Stark Hks spepecial Edition. Neil La Gras Tyson, you're a personal astrophysicist. And when it's special Edition, it is Gary O'Reilly. Hey, Neil. Hey, man. Chuck, how you doing? Professional comedian? Yes, sir. All right, D. Feeling good, man. All right, so Gary, you cook these topics up. Got it. I'm impressed every time. Yeah I' say would tell us what you brought us Gott to give a shout out to Lane Nunsworth over in L.A All right, so getting to the top Reaching the summit. They are goals for millions, maybe if not billions of people daily around the world. Y. Either literal or figurative summits. Tallyes. But not all of us can get over our fears to reach it thenen there are some of us who can. so we' got to think about that. Today, we're going to talk about the science of fear. Yes. The science of fear And how we can change N science of fear. and change our brains to overcome it. And who better to discuss that with a neuroscientist and a freestyle rock climbber. Plus, I want to find out about his podcast, what's it called Planet Visionaries. Yes, it's with Rolex's pererpetual Planet Initiatives. Okay, we'll find out more about that. Yes. right. Nil Please introduce our first guest. I will be delighted, G too we have in our midst sitting right here in my office at the Haydven Planetarium in New York City, we have world renowned freestyle Cimer. Oh my gosh. Alex. Alex Hannold. Alex, welcome to Star Talk Thanks, thanks for having me. I mean, everyone learned about you through the the indelible film free solo on a climb that you did, of El Capitan. Yes. This is a mountain in Yosemite.. Could you just explain what free solo means? So before you do that, let me just say because I don't think we gave Alex the proper reverence. This guy is the best climber in the world that we have sitting here. Like there is no one better. You understand what I'm saying? Like he's a rock star. And what I love is he's like, yeah, whatever, you know, I just like to climb. he's a rock star. I didn't see what I did you do. You weren't supposed to point it out. So explain What it means Yes. a free sol of climbing is climbing without a rope or harness. just climb with your hands and feet up a cliff. Yeah. So no extra tools or no gear. No lifts or hammers or safety net. whichich means if we think things through just a little bit Yeah if you fall, you die. Thank you. Thank you. I didn't want to say it because I didn't want to solo equals, you fall, you die. Yeah, basically. Yeah. But actually you know unless you trip in the first five feet. Well, that's exactly. was actually because if you fall and you don't die, then you were bouldering R because that actually is like another discipline of climbing is going bouldling, which is what most people do in gyms and which I'm actually going to do in the gym here in New York as soon as we're done chattingo to the gym and go bowling. They're like train And so that's when you climb without a rope and everything's well but you're climbing, you know ten or fifteen feet, you fall onto pads it's all safe. Right. But basically if you go much beyond that, and you're looking at serious consequences. The laws of physics will kill you. Yeah, then you're free selling. song is kind of defined once you cross that line where's a big gen consequences. Now play with that guy. So so I've had a few rock climber friends. in my life, one of whom dead. In a climbing accident or Yes, yes in a climbing accident. Back in college. What impressed me was the things they could do They were kind of lean and lanky. So just like you can do one arm pushups and finger pull ups, just tell me the kinds of things You can do that most of us can't or none of us can. I mean, nothing that crazy. I can do one arm pull ups obviously.ne arm pull up. That's not crazy. Yeah. Okay. like do thousand. Everybody does that. All my friends can do that. Really? Yeah, but you hang out with wont of your friends are aroundon my friends are professional climbers. Yeah. But I can't do like one arm push ups. That's because basically I have good pulling muscles, not that b p pushing muscles Yeah pushing. I never push them pushes run towards me Yeah. So I hadn't thought about it in a push up You're pushing things away, which is not something you would ever do as a climber. typically. I mean you do a little bit of pushing as a climber ' you have to like press onto things like pressing over the top of like imagine getting out of a pool you' trying to get onto the top of a cliff.ight. But that's pretty minimal compared to how much you're pulling. You're pulling all the time as you're pulling yourself. you got good biceps relative to your body weight. Yeah, I guess What am you guess? this discipled specific muscle group. That's what I'm enchanted by, that's kind ofcipline specific muscles. But that's kind of the things that people assume that because you're a good rock climber, you must be very strong in different ways. and really climbing is so much aroundound technique and weaiting your feet and like having open hips and balancing under your toes and doing all these things that you know, I'm sure some random crossfit bro can probably pull stronger than I. Then you don't want to be muscle b you need an amazing amount of flexibility. Yeah, but like a gymnast is almost certainly more flexible and stronger than me. But it does mean but you're not doing a back flip off the Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying that you train for what you need. and that' you know, so I'm able to climb, you know, as well as I can. but I don't know, by any metric of strength. so. This is where we transition because if we get line up five people with similar strength to weight ratios and similar agility, not everyone makes it to the top There's a certain mental state that you have to enter, I'm presuming, that might distinguish you from other rock climbers who are equally as physically fit and capable of lifting their own weight. Yeah, that's actually probably a more apt transition than you might have even have thought because yeah, if you lined up five of my friends who are all professional climbers and we're all relatively the same strength and weight and size and build and everything you know, why are some of us more successful than others? And yeah, that starts to come down to the sort of indelible factors like mental things. Is there a I'll say prototypical physiology attached to climbing or can any body type do it. Any body type can do it, but strength to weight matters. So I mean, there are some really big climbers. you know, because if you're strong enough, you can be big But in general, people are relatively blithe Okay. So when you like, I'm kind of a big climber Okay interestnteresting. Right. I'ming for Clmer. And in that movie, whichich movie? cl Sylvester Stallone. Oh Ciffhanger, not your back, Yeah. Yeah, but to me, he looked almost too muscular for that Yeah. But I think Sylvester Stallone would argue that you can never be too muscular. Right Exactly. Plus he can always just, you know grunt at the rocks to get them to cooperate. That's true had not And you know All right, so enough about fly. So when we planning a major ecent Are you physically train for that particular climb or if you've got all of your tool kit ready, you just need to polish your get go Well always a little bit of a So you're always trying to stay fit like base level fitness, like to be capable of doing a climb. Then you do the specific training on that route. So like in the film prelo, you see a ton of practice on the actual wall, meorizing the specific moves of that rot. because it's one thing to have the physical capability where like my muscles are strong enough, but it's another thing to actually remember How to use your muscles the right way? you know, like left hand or right hand or should I raise my left foot or you know, like Remembering how to do it. And then beyond that, then there's the whole mental side of it of like, do I believe I can do it? Do I want to do it? Is it too scary?ike you know Okay, so you landed on that button. How are you working with the development mentally? You're looking at the bottom up at this climb How do you then configure how you address that with your own thoughts You know, att the base level, there's the confidence that comes from knowing that you're physically able to do something. So it's like if you've done the physical preparation, if you're trained for it, then obviously it's much easier to have the self confidencequ that any elly athlete would have. they'd have the confidence comes from all the work they've done in their history. Yeah've done the work. And particularly with rock climbing, you know, like the medium is unchanging, like the rock is always there and it's always the same So if you climb it with a rope a bunch of times, you know that that's how it feels, that's how it always feels. So if you can do that in a variety of conditions and in a variety of personal conditions, like when you feel tired, when you feel strong, like whatever And you know that you can always do it then you kind of know that you can do it. And is that the process that you climb with a rope multiple times as kind of a means of solidifying your path and your technique in your brain? and then you go without the rope? Yeah, that's the ideal. I mean, I've certainly done a lot of things without prep beforehand, but that's typically because you've looked at a map, like you kind of know that the route is supposed to be a certain grade, that you can do it and you're just like, I'll go up and figure it out do Typically free solling far enough within your comfort zone that if it starts to get weird you just downclimb or just escape. And is that more exciting? if you're kind of because that seems to require a bit more improvisation. Yeah. Yeah. That's the word. I mean there there are a few things in the world probably quite as stimulating as being like alone on a cliff that you've never climbed, just questing. I mean, that's like real Yeah, suppose, you know, I have pretty pretty long arms And But for anyone, if you're climbing, if a grip is like a few inches out of reach Can that happen? You see, I got toa give up because I have no place to ascend for. Or typically you would raise your feet. and you get closer to it What you mean raise your feet? climb. Yeah It'sny because, most people when they're climbing the gym, they're like, I can't reach the next hold and you're like well, raise feet basically if you raise your center mat, likeike lift if you put your feet on the next level up, then you're like, oh, suddenly I can reach the next hoold., becausecause your hands already got past that level. So wherever your feet are standing, your hands used to be there. Yeah, rightight. So there's got to be something above where your current feet are if you're trying to reach a higher point above that In theory, or you can always just paste your feet against the wall. You're wearing these rubber shoes, so they kind of stick to rock a little bit. and so with enough body tension you can kind of just push and lever your body higher. The general idea that you're saying, like what if there's a gap that you can't surmount? Th then it's like, yeah, I mean if there's a gap gap and you can't surmount it, then then you fail. That's a g gap. Yeah orr you have to jump. Well that most people don't Well, yeah I mean, sometimes you jump from one hole to another Jump, but without a rope, youes prefer not jke. While you're seting, there's a point where you are not in contact W all But typically you only do that when you when you have a rope on and things. Okay. But when you're roped up though, that's relatively common whereas's like you run out of holes and then you jump or you fly. However, if I remember the movie correctly, The impasse for every other climber was this one particular point Where it it wasn't necessarily a jump, but it required something a big kick out was kickout and you and and that's actually something that I had solved with a jump in the past. Like you could jump that part, but the idea of freeestlling that way seemed totally out of the question. Right Because you just don't want to you don't want to get up to a point and be like, now my whole life has come down to this moment. right jumped for a hold. I was like, no But let's get back to your brain or lack thereof.. Are you now or have you ever been Afraid of heights. Hm No, well, so I actually, most people who they're afraid of heights, I' think they're actually afraid heights. I think they're afraid fall their death. whichich I think is totally fair and that's what like I'm afraid of fall my death. Okay the comedian, Stephven Wright said I'm not afraid of heights I'm afraid of widths And I said that's very insightful. Because if you're very high up, but you're walking on a broad swath of Well, that's exactly. Yeahah, you're afraid of fall into your death. Right. if something's narrow, that's when you're afraid of the height. Yeah. But the higher you are, isn't that more scary than if you're not as high? I mean, once you're more than forty or fifty feet off the ground, you're basically gonna to die either. Right? So what's the difference between being a thousand one thousand feet. Yeah. I mean in general, I like being really high because mom about that sentence. No, that's pragmaticentence. I know. Be that makes sense. It's like're dead anyway. So what's the difference? know, You know what? I used to be afraid for a very short period of time, I used to be afraid of flying And I would get in the plane and I'd be white knuckling and I'd be like, oh my God, oh my God. I don't remember the exact flight, but I remember when the plane took off. And we were no longer on the ground, something said to me, It's over So relax. If the plane crashed right now, you're going to die. mostost likely, you're going to die. So what difference does it make if it crashes from thirty thousand feet? Because here you are not even one hundred feet off the ground and if this plane went down, you would die. So it's the same thing. So the psychology is He's taken away you, he, you have taken away this issue and minimized it because you've said, it doesn't matter if it's a thousand or fifty. The death is the outcome. So you've just taken you've just made something that could be big and dramatic like Chuckpear of flying it in its own Yeahah, or you've just kept it Basically I have a fear of death. have a fear of fall to my death just like anybody. Yeah.. I try my absolute best I don't believe you. Well, I mean because if I honestly didn't care, then wouldn't do any practice. I wouldn't prep. I wouldn't train I would show up and be like, screw it. you know, if it works out it works out. You that don' to die. wantant to die. Well, so like, if you've seen the Film free Soul, I mean that documents two years of direct training for this one climb.. But before that, I'd spent another six or seven years sort of building up to it. So I'm like, oh I spent, you know, eight or nine years building up to this one climb. And then people like, you have a death wish. And I'm like, well, I had a death wish I would have justone done it I want' to spend nine years training for it..'s like Okay. So is it fair to can saying yeha. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I was like, hold my beer, I'm going for it. like, well, that's one time. Yeah. Is it fair to say that Your level of preparation systematically reduced your fear factor Yeah, so I mean, if you take risk as as sort of the The likelihood of something bad happed. ch my consequence of it. You know, with the free soling, if you look at the risk is, you know the consequences are basically always death. But the likelihood of falling off is determined by how much you practice how well trained you are, the weather, you know, like all kinds stuff. tell me you were so prepared for this climb. We should be less impressed than we all were for having watched you accomplish it. Well, I think that the impressive part is the amount of effort that goes in to the m the film , which I think does a good job of. No, I think the impressive part, but also is the doing because let's be honest, are you still the only one who's done it? Yeah, exactly. Look at him. this guy, this not a guy. It know what's wrong with you. All this clamadum your brain because I never seen nobody who has summetited achievement like you have like Yeah, I guess, I mean, you know, I kind of did it. very m in the ball like,, whatever We alone in the universe or just early to the party? In my latest book, Take me to your leader I explore how aliens might find us they be like and what we should do next? Curious? You should be Take me to yourour leader is available now in print and in audiobook which Chinarian. 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More devices, more AI The way we live today takes a lot of energy Wind and solar are powerful but not always available That's where natural gas comes with reliable energy whenever it's needed Companies like Energy Transfer work behind the scenes, safely transporting these resources to facilities across the country through a network of underground pipelines Learn more at ittakes ennergy. com Is it possible to be? Overconfident And then you sort of let down Y cautions And is that a part of your brain that you access and think about actively? Yeah, we definitely trying to avoid being. I don't think I've ever been too overcfident. I don't know. Other people might say it differently. I don't know. Yeah, that's certainly something tovoid. I mean the thing with free soling is you definitely never want to overstate or like over you don't want to exceed your capabilities Right So you have to keep it pretty clear eyed. You have to match your expectations with your abilility at all times. Yeah, exactly. That's cool. Okay. So your planning, I'm guessing, is prettyty much meticulous four hard free solos sure. So what point is there when you think I've oversought this. and all of a sudden these things start to spiral around in your mind. Do you get to that point or you disciplined enough just to keep it at meticulous? It's about discipline, I don't know if I've been accused of overthinking anything, but you know. No, I don't know. So it was interesting. So part of my process with free sollingal C was I knew that it would be the most consequential climate in my life, I knew that would be the most important thing I'd ever done. I knew that the film you know had the potential to be great. and what you know, I knew it would be big deal But I I didn't want to put it on too much of a pedestal in my mind because I already knew that there was a big mental challenge involved in believing that I could do it and whatever else. And so by building it up even higher, being like, this will be the most important thing you ever do. It's like I don't really need added pressure. because there was already just the fact that it's a three thousand foot face and it hasn't been done, it's really hard. And you know I felt like that was enough And so I was kind of like, well, I don't want to So actually so part of my planning was that You know, I had a couple of months in Yosemite in the springtime, which is kind of like the time to do the free solo. But right after that, I'd agreed to go on this expedition to Alaska to climb some walls and that was kind of training for this expedition, Antarctica later in the year to climb some other walls. And so I was kind of looking's wall Yeah, some insane, like graniteace O no, like granite teeth, like just giant jagged vases sticking out of the glaciers. I'mly wrong. I was in Antarctica a year and a half ago. I wasm theong part of it. Aere you on the coast or in the coast coast ye Yeah. Yeah, no, in the interior, they're gi mountains sticking up all over. Okay. It's totally amazing. Yeah forty below zero, yeah, okay. Well, actually in the sun, I mean, it's chilly but it's It's not that chilly. It's okay. You can climb bare handanded in the sun sometimes Oh unpleasant, but it's fine But anyway, the point being that I had sort of plann these other expeditions with the intention of making my Yosemite season feel like training for these other trips. So so obviously I was intending to free sollo Cap. I wanted to climb out Cap. I knew that'd be so important to me. But at the same time, I'm kind of like, well, this is just practice for these other trips and you know, it's all part of my year. G because I didn't want to put undue pressure. I didn't need to put extra pressure onto something that already felt like a lot Do you have that point where you're mid climb and you're think, Shit, I left the light on in the bathroom And you've lost your concentration. Or are you able to discipline yourself and goes back that point of discipline? Do you have a better example of leaving a light on in the bathroom? No, no something comes I left a stove. I' left the lights on the van. You you look down you see your van parked down the bottom of El Ceadow, and you're like, God, damn, I left the lights on the inside. Yeah. I've done that a bunch of times where your head lights on and you're like, o man. But then if you get down fast enough you haven't killed your battery, so it's fine. So you're able to shut that down in your own mentality Qick? Well, it's not even that. So I mean, with free selling OCap, it took almost four hours. And so you know realistically, unless you're a highly trained monk or something, everybody's mind wanders all the time for How do We rememember the Oan Man? Yes. interview. And it wasn'tntil later in his career, right that he was able to get out of his own head and finish the race in first place It took that time to not listen to the sort of things about whatever it was going on in his head. So are you able to shut that? Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of discipline. I think that with hard free soling, when have when you're doing something hard, you're just focused. You're just doing the thing. Actually, it's kind of akin to running. I'm sure you've spent a lot of time running in your life T long yet. know's like if you're doing some casual jogging, you're thinking about all kinds of things. you're sayin about your life and your friends But if you're sprinting all out, you know, if you're chasing the ball towards a goal, you're not thinking about anything. This a point. ath point. Very good point. Let I ask you this, does this ever happen where your brain somewhat bifurcates into two distinct consciousness where one is totally locked in on what you're doing So much so that it opens up another part of your brain. where you're kind of thinking about O things, not like I left the lights on, but phhilosophical issues that are running through your brain. like, why am I doing this? Existential question. That's very funny. No, no, I mean, I think for me, the closest thing to a bifurcation like that is occasionally when I'm really doing something like I'm performing then you're like so on autopilot that it's almost like your body's just doing a thing and you're not really you're like long for the ride. It's almost like you' there for the ride. But But I've never really experienced the other part where it's like but some part of my mind is thinking about other things It's just that you're just doing it and you're not thinking about things. I mean, I've always assumed that's kind of like what a gymnast must feel like when they're executing their routine or something. Youre just like The body is moving, they're doing a thing, they're not thinking about it. they're not For me, the closest thing is like riding on a motorcycle. I ride motorcycles. And so when you're traveling at you know, ninety, one hundred and ten miles an hour. you're focused. You're very focused. And the deal is If I'm not focused, I'm going to die. But the longer you stay focused because you can't The long you say focus, your mind starts to not wonder, but it starts to think about other things in a different level of consciousness. That's all I was asking. Evolutionarily fear was a very important feature in the history of our species, because that preserves our species. It's like, no, I'm not gonna to do that. And where does that come from? Because everyone who said that's a cuddly lion. I want to go pet it. If you didn't fear the lion, you were summarily removed from the gene pool. Yeah, by the way, I love those videos So so are you, however, the subset of people Wh are fearless and manage to not die. uly outsized impact on the advance of civilization Otherwise, we' all still be in the cave So Are you one of these people in our species that retained the level of fear that was genetically removed by other forces But you're still there helping our. I don't think so I think that's overstating. I think that, I mean, I experienceced fear just I was just I put you up on a evvolutionary I know. was He was like this, No, let's not get crazy. I'm still scared of the gark.y. No. I mean, I think that if anything, I've just had a So much practice being scared that I've gotten good differentiating you know, what's love what just come a muscle memory. Yeah.' Yeah we just get used to. I mean, I think that most people who are really crippled by fear, it's because they don't experience that much fear. Like they're not scared enough in a way or they they haven't had to manage their fear enough. Do you have a fear appetite so that you gott to go see scary movies all the time as well We're jumping. check out airplanes? I have jumped out airplanes, but no I hate horror because I actually think that the whole genre is stupid because like jump cuts and startling moves and weird things like That's always going to startle you, that's designed to scare you. And I don't really want to feel fear that gu I'm with you. Like I wouldn't intentionally go. Let me just I think the whole thing is stupid. As a black man, my life is scary enough. I don't need to sit and watch things. If you don't climb a rock face risking death after a certain amount of time Do you get antsy? Oh you have to go That's a good question. Go back and teach your life to climb? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, you know, we call that an adrenaline junkie. Yeah.'s hard it's so hard to say. I mean, I get itchy to climb, but like I'll climb this afternoon, but it'll be in a gym it'll be tot safe. still be you're still ex. Yeah' you're excited.. Yeah, that's That's tpping into something Motivation The motivation to do El Capitan, the motivation to do and we haven't discussed y it, the Taipei one hundred one, which you streamed live on Netflix. So what's the motivation? Because it's for me I'm in competition with opponents or you, a tennis pro or a soccer player Are you just in competition with yourself?ah, it's like a journey of self I mean, I hate to say self mastery or whatever, but basically just You know, I spend most of my year climbing the gym doing like what I'm gonna do this afternoon, just go, you train, you work out, you climb. And then every once in a while, you kind of want to test yourself or see if you're capable of the things that you that you wish you were capable of or that you want to be capable of, you know You're competing against yourself. Yeah, I mean, basically. because We only just met But as best as I can judge You don't look like a publicity hound Well, some would say streaming a building climb live on Netflix is about as public facing as it gets. But That is a very good point. I. To be fair I would' have done it for free. That's I' going to say, hellever, you're not the guy with the camera. Yeah, exactlyight It' el. It's everybody else. No. Wh's riding your high there. Yeah. was it I'm trying to remember the documentary If I recall correctly, they were showing you as a little kid climbing everything. everythingverything in the house, no matter what it was, you were up on it. You were never down on the ground I'm seeing that with my kids a little bit now. really if that's nature nature, you know veryy cool. You got something wrong with the ground? You got a problem with the ground? I just Well, actually I love I love the view. honestly, I love being up high. I love seeing lots of things that like, you know on top. Let'm thring a little bit of phics here if I may. please. Okay. As you ascend, the you're putting energy into that ascent, obviously muscle energy and one hundred percent of that energy is what It kills you when you hit the ground if you fall. Oh wow So it's an exact match. You're storing up energy. cororrect. So that if you were to fall, it's that energy that hits the ground. You basically killed yourself the energy that you use to ascend. That's kind of wild. And I remember that if I ever fall. I'd be like, I was saving for this the way down the way down On Earth, we have a surface gravity that gives you your current weight. What you at one hundred and sixty pounds? one hundred sixty. Yeah, o. Those were the diagams. I say I remember those. Yeah. he doesn't want to carry up any more fat that is necessary.. All right. Yeah. So So on Earth you weigh one hundred sixty pounds, but on a pulsar The gravity is it's like a dense ball of neutrons. The gravity is so severe that the energy to ascend the thickness of a sheet of paper. equals what it would take to climb a thousand foot rock face. Just to step onto that sheet of paper. Wow. So rock climbing would be very different on different surfaces, planetary surfaces. It's pretty hard on pulsars. A a little easier on the mooon and even on Mars. Yeah. Yeah Mars, you'd weigh one hundred pounds, or no forty six four. You weigh sixty pounds on Mars? That would really help. It' be tremendously beneficial to my gment That's excellent. A long time ago, I was in a mild car accident. you know, nobody, no blood. I found it hard into a car for weeks after that Just it was such an assault on my concept of safety I guess if they say the same thing about if you fall off a horse get back on the horse to just So does this happen in among rock climbers, if you made a mistake or you fall Is there barrier that prevents you from recovering. Yeah, I believe it's how fast you can clean your underwear. I think there's probably two different scales set. Sos if something happens, like say you're fre solling something and you break a handhold, like a very quick immediate thing that sort of jolts the panic system, You know, you're suddenly like, I'm flooded with adrenaline I just had a ne yourar death experience. There's recovering from that which There's no real trick to do I don't think. I mean, you take some deep breath, you can pose yourself, you try to pull it together and you just carry on But then what you're describing, if you have an actual accident of some kind, though a small fnderpendnder is maybe not a real accident. But you know if somebody actually has real trauma, like they have a horrendous like something happens to them they need a surgery I mean, that's kind of a different level of coming back from it. I've thankfully never really experienced. I'm saying I felt it was no physical trauma. It was just emotional for me. So you're drawing a line between Well, I'm trying a recovery that had no real consequences to something that did. Yeah, I feel like emotional sort of mental recovery is different between like acute small scale things and then big picture Giant things. rightight I don't I don't know But I just think that the small scale things, at least for me, I've just gotten better out with practice because you just have so many little things happen while you're climbing. you're like, wow, I'm really scared and then you're like, well, what am I going to do other than just pull myself back together, take some breath. So you voluntarily had your brain scanned, Is that right? I did. Yeah actually a journalist had approached me for a science magazine about doing a profile basically around this brain scan and It was with a woman that was doing research on high sensation seeking individuals, which I think in her case was more around drug addicts and things and you know people like struggling with addiction But it's kind of the same personality traits, I guess And anyway, so yeah I had an FMRI and they looked to my brain a They'd been looking at the amygdala, so that sort of fear factor from memory You kind of registered less than the control. during the test. So are you putting that down to Nature? or is this something you've nurtured Yeah, so in the film free solo, there's this very short scene where they kind of show the brain scan, and then it's like, o, it's less than normal. And so I think most people watch that scene and they come away from being like, there's something wrong with this brain With the long form version in the magazine article and all that It's kind of exactly that is's like, is this nature versus nurture. And I think that the To me, the obvious thing is it is more nurture, notot so much that as nurture. So you say teach just practice? I think what you're saying is that The repetition of what you do over a very long period of time, blunted You're amygdala response. Yeah. so the FMRI scan, you know, you're in this like safe metal tube. You lie there and you see black and white photos that are range they're just like random black and white photos. And they light up different parts of your brain, depending what you're seeing. And so some of them, you know, there'll be like a black and white photo of like a handgun or something it like triggers fear and people like the fear response But I was kind of like, I spent my whole life getting deeply afraid for my life on cliffs. I'm kind of like lying in this whole tube, looking at photos, It's just not scary. You know, it's like had they thrown snake into the tube, it would have been freaking scary Why do it have to a snake? It's just or even like a rat. You know, had they thrown like a rat or like a big spier or like, you know, there are plenty of things that could have lit up my fear response for sure But looking at black and white photos is not one of them. And to me that's nurturure. It's like you spend your whole life getting scared. could just require a higher threshold. It' a good answer get. Yeah that makes sense. Makes sense. Well, let's jump into your foundation, the Harnold Foundation. You like rememember the surfer Kyi Lenny? Yes. He's well into environmental projects just like you are solar energy project. So please expand on this whole foundation that you've formed. and does it have its root in the fact that you spend so much of your time in the great outdoors? Yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly it. I founded the Hanu Panation in twenty twelve I think, and know I was living in my van at the time and I started earning more than anything. Living in your van I lived downown by the river. Well, down by the cliff. part of the vas cliff. Yeah for sure.. But But yeah. so you're living in a van, which is pretty inexpensive life. Yeah, I was living on twelve K years or it wass pretty easy lifestyle because you're literally only spending money on food and gas and you're just driving around climbing full time.. And the thing is that I was living exactly the life that I wanted. You I was super happy. I was pursuing all these climbing goals. was By I was living my best life. And a stank Well, I mean, there's nobody around to knows had my money on a van and that was. He didn't stay on shower or bat, they were so pred. they kept the bears away.. That' o. You know, I started earning more than I need and I felt like I should give what I didn't need to things that mattered. And so you know, I obviously cared about the environment because was living in nature quite a bit And then basically came down to what could have the most benefit. for environmental causes but could also help human population in some way. Basically I traveled enough through climbing that I was like, noobody cares about the environment unless their basic needs are met Like, you know, when you travel to rural communities, that's always the case. That's a great. So it's kind of like, well, if're to try tootect.'s luxury to compare with that about the environment. I mean, yeah, basically. And so it's kind of like if you're going to support environmental projects, they have to improve standard of living. they have to help human communities in those places. And so that's why we've been supporting community solar ever since then Another quote from my father, It's not good enough to be right. You also have to be effective and your foundation mean I think energy access is the base for so many different things. that kind of worldwide. Yeah globally. We're talking. Yeah. So you still going strong? Yeah, this year we'll pass twenty million in total giving. Fans. W. Congratulations. W way there No man It's crazy because when I started the homination, I donated fifty K the first year. I sort of like went from me giving fifty k K a year. to now yeah, we've fed twenty million liked that's pretty cool. And by the way, once again, whenever this comes up, I feel it incumbent upon me to remind all of you watching that solar energy is still the cheapest energy on the planet, okay? And in space. Just when I put up their face. That's right. So I don't care what you've been told, you know, drill, baby drill is not the way to go Yeah. I feel the exact same way. You know, since twenty twelve, I was like, this is obviously the future. Like this is where energy should be coming from. Absolutely. And you've got a podcast Gives your platform there? Yeah. Yeahah, whose podcasts called Planet Visionaries. Planet Visionaries. Yeah good. Yeah.' others of like mind and soul It was supported by Rolex and so I'm mostly interviewing Rolex ambassadors Basically conservation is people who are working a lot of like marine biologists and divers and you sort of ice, I don't know, like marine photographers and things like that. Yeah, they've definitely been supporting conservation and exploration type efforts for you know, I don't know eighty years or. W. Super cool man. one hundred years. Way to go Rolex. whoo knew? I know it is surprising. But actually, it's been real pleasure hosting the podcast because just like you guys, I mean, you get to meet all these interesting people who are doing incredible things It was pretty inspiring because of people who have devoted themselves to one niche You know, we're like restoring coral in certain places likeike who knew that you could restore, you know? Yeah. And what platform did they possibly have to tell people Right without what you're providing Exactly.. You ain't going on a tonight show're restoring coral Well good to good to hear about this and it's not just you climbing mountains as you making a difference in the world. Not enough people thinkink or feel this way. W the classic I mean I love climb mountains but at certain point, you're like, maybe should try to do something useful as well Yeah make some fun of your life.actact. Well, Alex, thanks for sharing some of your day. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Did you climb up the side of this ro or to God got on the fifth floor. on the fifth floor. Give me permission I will, for sure. I got on my climbing store with me. You gott to never leave home without it. All right, this, we gota wrap Well, we got to wrap this segment. This segment. Oh yes. Yes. That's right. We gott to get inside de manand's.'t home just yet. Okay, okay. Coming up. Yes.. We're gonna reach out to our neuroscientist at large. doctor, Professor Heather Berlin. All right, We come back on StarTalk Special Eedition Ezem is unpredictable. But you can flare less with EBGS. A once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four month or longer dosing phase, about four incent people taking EpGLS achieved itsch relief and glare or almostare skin at sixteen weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. 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These deals are so appealing like portable steamers for steaming. Whoa! Did I just sing soopprano? I think I'm breaking into song N deals air fryers, vacuums and skinca I can't stop sing shhop Epic deals this prime day june twenty third through the twenty sixth. I think that's it. Nope, there's more. Luggage! smart classes. It's smart to always have a few financial goals and are really smart when you can setit earning cash back on what you buy every day With Discover canan Get this Discover automatically matches all the cash backack you've earned at the end of your first year Seriously, all of it And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show y terms at disiscover. com slash credit card I'm Joel Chherico and I support StarTalk on Patreon This is StarTalk with Neil D Gras Tyson Jry T to bring in our next guest? Yeah ich is one of my favorites? And She is, without a doubt one of our favorites Fascinating guest Alex Cota It fascinated because all of the achievement and the modesty was just the humility was amazing. We gotta get inside his brain. Let's do it And that's what Heather is here for. Yes. Heather Berlin. Hello. Yes, Clinical psychologist, is that your day job? Cinical psychologist? Neuroscientist, C clinical psychologist. Yeah.' a crime fighter at night. You're at the Icon School of Medicine, Mount Sinai, New York. I was born in that hospital in Mount Sini. Most people most amazing people are born in Mount Sinai. you guys born there. They don't have that in Philly. you were born. don't have Mina. All right, all right So tell us how does fear Mifest brain And I've heard the amygdala,ygdala. What is that? What is that? Yeah, I've surely mispronounced. Let me just. The amygdala is a key brain region involved in fear, but it's this, I think a lot of people think that fear lives in the amygdala and that's not quite how it works. The amygdala is more like S smoke alarm It's a text something happening in the environment. It says Danger, danger, something you know, could be happening. We need to gear up So then it activates other parts of the brain, which then decide whether we need to sort of act on this. So's the trigger? It's a trigger. It's sort of an alarm response that can be trained to either sort of be louder or to kind of dampen down, depending on our experience. And so what I'm curious because we just take it for granted that a lion with big teeth that's chasing you is something that you should fear. But is that evolutionary the portfolio of things that scare us That's not learned, is it So it's a bit of both. We are actually born. our research has shown that we're born with certain predispositions evolutionarily sort of program that we're more likely to be fearful of certain things like spiders or heights. because of our history and our interaction with them than we are to say of you know electrical sockets. Right. Oh because electrical sockets are modern and we didn't have a chance to evolve. Be afraid. Oh, okay, so what happ all my kids have afros H W, so that's an interesting point. If we wanted evolution to continue to work You would just let kids put stuff in the socket and they would die and those who did would die, they removed from the gene pool. Those who watched the others die would learn That would be whatever we would be feeding the amygdala of what you should be afraid of. Right. So I mean, there's a bit of both though because you can also learn fears, right by either watching something happen to someone else or having an experience yourself. let's say you get into a bad car accident. You might start to fear that. right? So you have lived experience which can program and then you also have kind of pre installed predispositions to be more likely to be fearful of these things that we've learned from our past. Okay. But you get a point where fear can almost paralyze or does paralyze Y. I mean, fear can be maladaptive, but not literally paralyzed. just prevents you from reacting Yeah. So there's a healthy amount of fear. and you don't want too little, you don't want too much Too much and if you freeze and you can't respond or run, let's say from the tiger, you're dead.. But if you're not afraid enough, you're dead. So it's this middle ground that is really the healthy fear. And then when we get into psychological disorders, sometimes it's too little or too much, and that's where the problems start to How much do we need people in modern society who are fear resistant Mm. and there are people who might don't fear getting arrested. I mean, there's the bad side of this curve. People who don't fear repercussions for wrongdoings. That's right, and that's because quite frankly, I'm made of Teflon I mean, when you look at it, if you look at population genetics, like there's things that remain in the population because it's an adaptive niche R? So if everyone's playing by the rules It's actually adaptive for those to be outside that, to be more risaking risk takers. so we find that genetically speaking, there's a certain gene that codes for people who are more risk averse, but also who take more risks. And there's niches within the population for both those people to have an advantage. Now if everyone, like once you get past a certain amount percentage of the population thenen it becomes maladaptive. So it kind of like we work together as a whole organism, if you think of us as a population, to keep a certain amount of risk takers because that's adaptive for us as a society. They're the ones are going to look and go a little further and explore. Right. Be I said in the first segment because it made sense to me, not because I researched it the way you have, that We need some risk takers that remain among us lest we all still be living in the cave Absolutely Exactly. So it's actually adaptive for there to be certain people out there who are more likely to take risks. Right And does for the benefit of us all For the benefit of us all. Exactly. the other ones are going to taste fruit and see if it's, you know, poison or not. Right Exactly. Yeah. the head swells happen. If you're not already this person that would go and do something adventurous How do you sort of push your own envelope when it comes to fear? Is are there techniques and skills? Absolutely. know So something that I kind of prescribe to patients, especially people who are risk averse as well. So they kind of are avoiding things too much is to kind of take these micro risks where your brain is is making predictions all the time about what it expects. And you have to kind of change this algorithm. and you do that by training it by actually being a little uncomfortable, letting yourself you know do it where it's not overwhelming, where you're flooding, it's called flooding, where it's just too much But you feel a little uncomfortable and your brain start and then nothing bad happens. brain starts to learn, okay, you know, discomfort isn' isn't doesn't mean danger. In that case is not justified. Right Like let's say you're afraid taking elevators. you know, mayaybe you just, I say, okay, you're going to take just elevator one floor and get off. I know it's going be uncomfortable, you're going gonna feel, But after that, you're like, oh, nothing bad happened. The brain starts to change its prediction and that alarm response, the amygdala, it starts to go down And that's how you gradually train yourself. And if you take someone like, you know, like like the rock climbing or free soling, where You know, you don't just start out climbing ell Capitan. No. You're doing it at little micro risks over and over where every time you do it, you feel a little bit safer and a little bit safer. and then you build up to these things where, you know, we explain the comfort zone. Yes. What happens in the brain when the fear becomes irrational And then what do you do? T deal with that. We like fear of the number thirteen. Yes. The trx of deophobia.obiaophobia in general. So it becomes irrational. you have to kind of attack it from both ends, like top down, bottom up So the bottom up is you kind of have to train, you have to embody it. You have to actually do the things. like let the number thirteen sit there and you know, you still do the thing you're afraid to do because the number thirteen is there or whatever it may be. And then nothing bad happens, it starts to train the brain at a sort of unconscious level. But then there's the top down where you can it's called cognitive reframing So you think of things in a slightly different way. So let's say you're afraid of something, the heart is racing, you're thinking, oh my god, I'm panicking somethinghing bads gonna to happen. You reframe it and say, you know what? My body is preparing for action You know, this isn't such a bad thing. I can still do things even if I'm feeling afraid if you reframe it in that way. So there's a cognitive aspect to it, and then there's the sort of just behaviorally, you have to keep doing it over and over again to teach your brain not to fear. And over time, the fear goes down. This sounds like what a psychologist would help a person to achieve, but in the future The future of neuroscience. seemems to me, you just go in there nip tuck a few neurons and then the symptoms go away like this. Is that the future of your fear? There actually, you know there are some and even with drugs that you can sort of unlearn. So fear is about association. You associate something a stimulus with it's fearful. You can pull apart that association with certain drugs. So you train someone to fear, you know, like Pavlov dogs can be trained to hear the bell and you know, sur starts coming. You can train people to fear something, let's say a white rabbit, right? And then you can unpair that with certain drugs. You know, I don't think it's dramatic as you have to go in with certain neural implants. Ultimately though, the fear circuits we understand so well that we could potentially go in there. Admit it, that's what you really w dora. Iulate people's brains. So when Alex was talking about You know what, if I fall from fifty feet, it's the same as falling from one thousand feet. How is he dealing with that fear aspect? How does he cognitively arrangeed himself? Yeah, that's a really good question. So that's something that I call controlled surrender So basically And I actually also you had mentioned fe Ice have a fear of flying. And the way that I got over it, it's not like knowing the statistics cognitively and all that none of that. It's a feeling. Iting. And it comes up from So when I finally, it's acceptance When I get in the plane, I have no control. It's letting go. I don't have control. And if this plane goes down, I'm going to die. And once you fully accept that the fear starts to go down because it's the holding on of control that actually is creating the anxiety. But once you just accept it and you know, Buddhists and, you know, mystics and all the Stoics have said this. there's that Christian prayer, which is God give me the power to change the things I can and to accept the things I can't. Exactly. That's the soul of this which is why I'm drunk on every flight But this is, I mean with with Alex, like he he, you know, once he passes, let's say, whatever it was fifty feet There's an acceptance No matter what if Iall, I'm going to die. And once you accept it, it kind of calms the fear circuit. I say it kind of made it smaller. less of a threat Yeah to allow it to just be in your head and start to eat away at you. So I was a geek kid and I would always have data override my feelings I could do it like that. the plane is shaken. I said, no, I know how many planes fall out of the sky and it's this little and it had this many flights. And so So you were able to like cognitive Yes your way out Yeah. Well that's the top down. You must have very strong top down proes that you can Yeah, yeah, very good prefont cortx. That's the part of the brain that That' is far right here. Yeah right in front above the eyes That you and sometimes control like that is really good. Like we need that, right to override. But other times like with with Alex, once he's trained so well and his kind of body and brain know what to do. Right. When you start putting in that top down, you start becoming too consciously aware and thinking messes you up. Because the train it and then you actually once you've trained, like to perform at your best, you actually have to stop trying so hard. You have to let go. Almost likeody knows better than your thought processre. Y. So how is that what's going on in like professional athletes Mhm. So yeah, it's it's, you know Not even just athletes, musicians, musicians surgeons. R. They've trained to the level that they don't have to think about it. And in fact, if they start to think about it, because consciousness is very good at certain things, but has a limited capacity. The unconscious and like it has so it's so large. if you start to consciously think about it, it kind of messes up the flow of things. Yeah. Like if you have to think about how am I walking and balancing at the same time and all of that, it wouldn't work as well. or when you're you a professional athlete, right what angle am I going to hit that ball, it will mess you up So when you're in, once you've trained, the training lives in your neural circuits and what your job is' what people call muscle memory Muscle memory. Yeah. abbsolutely. And So letting go isn' isn't chaos. it's actually trusting the control you've already built in.. And once you have, your whole job is to not think about it because when you start to infuse that top down processing, while that's good in some cases In those particular cases, it can be detrimental. So is it kind of like you've actually trained this these neurological pathways to fire in a certain way. And then if you just let them do it Then they'll just do it Pretty much. Yeahah. prettytty much. And you know, we've seen that even just with patients with brain damage, you know, this one patient, he actually had his hippocampus, the part of therain having to do with long term memories was completely damaged. And so he couldn't even hold consciousness from one minute to the next. He didn't forget. So every minute he felt like I'm just waking up now. had a diorach st I' waking up now. I'm just waking up now And so he was, you know, in an institution, he couldn't function But he was a pianist. and if they could get him to start playing The music, he could play an entire beautiful piece through all the way to the end. because it was a different part of his brain. and once you activated that part of the brain or with Alzheimer's patients, if you get them to start if they can't even speak at a certain point. you get them to start singing a song from their era of their childhood or happy birthday, they can suddenly sing the whole thing to completion So that reminds me, we interviewed Daniel Levitton, who he was a musician and a neuroscientist, and he wrote a whole book. on how music It just manifests differently in your brain and how anything sort of rhythmic changes what would otherwise be manifesting if it was not rhythmic or it was not serenated by music. And it's fascinating. Music is really powerful and it's related to language as well, and it's how we remember things with rhythm and dance. And so it goes very deep to our evolutionary roots as well But the thing about since every culture has some musical tradition. Yeah. ye. Yeah. And before we could write things down, you know the way rememember things with song. right song and rhyme and rhythm. And so you know, I think it's deep in sort of our subcortical parts of our brain. And like I said, the prefrontal cortex is important for certain things. And some people who are too under control, they need more control. They need more prefrontal cortex function and others need less to actually do their best. So our guy, Alex, Would you say Because he was very comfortable in himself, it was balanced for whatever his desires and needs were. For someone else, it could put their life at risk