Truth and Media Skepticism

intntroducing Toyota's family of full electric rides as cool as you are The adventurous BZ Woodland, the trend setting CHR, and the versatile BZ. Zip around town in the BZ with a smooth and sporty driving dynamic. Explore the outdoors in the BZ Woodland with dual motors and available all terrain tires. Be bold on the road with the CHR's sharp handling. Imagine what you can do with an all electric vehicle that gets you Learn more about the new all electric family at Toyota. com Toyota Let's go places Our listeners love puzzles, paradoxes, and hidden patterns almost as much as we do On TikTok, those fascinations come to life. People are breaking down physics, exploring geology and explaining why the world works the way it does. You'll see impressive experiments, explanations that finally make sense, and connections you didn't expect. It's like having a lab, a lecture hall, and science museum in your pocket TikTok is where Wonder is shared where curiosity turns into discovery and where millions learn something new every day I had a right to know the truth It belongs to seven billion people What is it You wouldn't believe me if I told you. So I'm gonna show you What are you gonna do full disclosure to the whole world All at once This is St Talk. Neileras Tyson, you' your personal astrophysicist. and today we've got some special brewing. Oh yeah. We're gonna talk about Disclosure Day Not just in the abstract, but I've got with me here The one the only Steven Spielberg. It's his story and he directed it. But we also have their writer, David Kepp, who not only wrote Disclosure Day, but wrote many other science fiction films, not only in collaboration with Stehven, but also of his own. So we know this episode is going to serve Geek underbelly And that's coming right up on Star Talk Welcome to Star Talk. Y place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. ar talk begins right now we good to see you again. Good night. Thanks for coming ont to the podcast. We did a little bit of homework and I did not know that your first student film was called Firelight. about aliens? Yeah, it was called Firelight. I made it an eight millimeter on eight millimeter film. I was seventeen years old. I was in high school. So aliens have just been a thing Well, it was it was more about UFO's. it was it was it was and it wasn't peace loving. Al The first one I did was much more of the formulaic, you know, monogram movie exploitation but was it was in an area of interest ever since I was a kid.. And I mean, why wouldn't it be because everybody is interested in aliens at some point, but you have the power to bring it to life on levels that no one could have imagined. Well it's not really so much my interest in aliens. it's been my interest in the unknown And the feeling I've had, you know, for a very long time having been consumer of everything involving the unknown, notot the unknown, you know, you know a million light years from here, but the unknown right here. And it's always been something that's really interested me. And I've always wondered, you know, you know, if the unknown is known by a very small group of people The injustice of not everyone knowing what they know is kind of what drives me, especially to tell the story of Disclosure Day. It never occurred to me to think of peopleople left out As being the consequence of an injustice. And inequity, maybe is a better wordure. No, but still no I'm applauding the term because when it's an injustice, you want to correct that as a viewer. You want to right the wrong. and you clearly established that in disisclosure Day. I That was the greatest feeling any of us had as we watched this. A question that I've always had as a director What is the value I've the eyes of whatever it is you're looking into. Not only in Disclosure Day, was there a lot of eye contact from animal you know non human animals to human animals, but also human to human, where you're kind of seeing into their soul, imparting a bit of empathy, I guess, is for lack of a better word there. That is the word That is the word of the day. word of the day. But aliens tend, as we now think of them, they have big eyes And eyes seem to matter. Can you just speak a little bit as a director? And let me throw in the mix the eye contact with a Vvelociraptor. Yeah, right? I mean at my museum The Velocappt is not much bigger than a big dog. But they were sort of pumped up in Jurassic Park so that you're making eye contact with something that's going to eat you. So not only as a source of fear, but as a source of potential source of empathy. How does that to? Well with human beings, you know, eyes are the mirrors of the soul. And to animals, I guess, eyes are the mirrors of the appetite. but they both serve as simple to pures with teeth. They both give a kind of satiation You know. I think everything is in the eyes. it's in the eyes, you know is from anything you've any movie experience anybody hass ever had. It's all about the ET's eyes in my film was critically important. The design of those eyes were critically important It's a little bit harder with what people report when they report Um non human entities They there's no Iiris or pupil. So so I never thought about that. They' never drawn with anything inside the eye. No, but there are other things happening when people have close encounters of the third kind, which is how that sort of you know defines itself. that there is something that is also a psychic part of looking into an eye of a nonhan as has been reported and still feeling something without needing the pupil or the iris. So in disisclosure dayay, because they actually had a An alien I always felt like what's the need to even disclose any video If you've got the alien What do he need the video for? You need the context. You've got to have eighty years of context. Okay. You've got to be able to he steals eighty years of the truth that has been hidden from the public and even from the government. because you know, it's very hard for elected officials to keep secrets You, But in a way, contracted, you know, you know deep state contract companies, contracted companies, they're pretty good at keeping secrets. There's not a lot of leaks from the big tech companies or even unless there's a mutiny as in disclosure dat. Eactly. And there have been whistleblowers that went to the, you know, House Intelligence Committee and it gave their testimony You know, you know, Gush Fraver and Ryan under swworn under roath. Yeah. Sworn under roath. twenty three. Yeah, twenty twenty three, in front of in front of Congress and the American public. So that's quite the setup for this movie, but presumably the movie was percolating even before then, right? It takes time to make a movie.ereere were those testimonies trigger for this whole idea? The trigger for the whole idea was the New York Times article. Right, That article that came out in the New York Times in twenty seventeen. Yes, yes. And that was that was the trigger for me. which was the first time we ever heard the term TkTk. being used instead of UFO. becausecause first it was UFO and then it was TikTk and then we hear something called UAP. It's all confusing. You know, know unidentified anomalous phenomen. It's who are they fooling. They'reking about UFO Can we go back to UFO?ooling, please. please complepletely. Yeah. I remembered speaking of a TikTk at the time. and a few weeks later at my office, a whole ra of TikTk showed up. So it's free advertising for them. I just had questions about the story. You know all the places are mentioned. We've heard tension occur in all Korea and Russia and Ukraine. And so that's kind of this Bu up be the disclosure because that's the backdrop. that's the landscape landscape on which this is unfolding. Yeah. What was your goal there? Well my goal was not to lay it on thick. My goal was to suggest that there was something approaching critical mass happening in the world that at least was bringing back the word DefCon. Yes, know. And that People tend to take these things in their stride. I remember during the Cuban missile crisis, I was in high school And when it was hitting the te, my parents went to a dinner party. and I was home with my three sisters worrying about the world ending. My parents weren't worried about that during the Cuban missile crisis. And so there are people who aren't going to really be focused on the DeFC situation, but there is a crisis happening in the world which has something to do with the timing of disisclosure D. Yeah. And it's coincidence, surely that the government is releasing files right around when you've got your movie coming out. That is complete coincidence. unless you have access. I No no, no. You can tell me, I won't tell anybody. No. My movie is not a it's not a holistic review of the entire UFO phenomenon as fed to me by you know by any actors inside or outside, you know The government I no, I've had no government contact about this at all. We're going to have quality time with your writer, your longime. David Kpp in this.. But let me just ask. What would you say of this movie is your imprimature as director and storyteller Well, I wrote the story. So I wrote it from scratch based on my deep interest in this subject and so much was starting to come out in twenty seventeen. All right. And I was very satisfied with close encounters, very satisfied having made ET and then even Wire of the Worlds which was more analogous to nine eleven Yeah than to aliens but this when I saw that Everybody that has a smartphone phone has been photographing and capturing some extraordinary things happening We're crowdsourcing any possible alien inovation. It's incredible how much is out there right now. And some of it, yes, can be faked, but a lot of it, I don't think is. And it just my interest, I didn't think I would get interested again in this subject And then when the twenty seventeen New York Times article came out, I thought, well, you know something is about to happen. M not be this year or next year, but something is going to happen. And I really would like this movie to be my summation story in my entire, I guess, phmography of UFOs and extraterrestrials. So let's explore empathy some more. Yes. becausecause that really mattered in this film. Yes, it does. Wh trust whom? R, how and why. trusting a stranger, complete stranger. So how did empathy land as a running theme? Well, because I've often I've dwellt a lot about notot just empathy, but the lack of empathy. And the feeling that empathy is sort of in short supply. It used to be a lot more taken for granted and now you have to kind of find it, reach for it. The way the world the country our country is divided and the way people go to their silos and and they stayed with their groups and with it's kind of like heels dug in. Yeah. Heels dug in. It's sort of like sports too, you know, in that sense. It's not a lot of empathy between you know, crowds competing against each other in any sporting event Empathy is toward your team, toward your home team, but not toward the opposition And and so more and more We're having less and less common ground that we can find. And I do a lot of philanthropic work through our Hearthland Foundation trying to fund things that bring people of different ideologies and beliefs together Not to change their minds. I'm not interested in changing anybody's mind, just finding common ground so we can start joining together as opposed to separating further and further Disclosure dayay has a lot to do with that. and empathy is the key. So how would you draw the line between national security? and the public The public's urge to know I think the public's urge to know is more like a right to know. And I think when you know, you can always look back and look at all of the conspiracy theories and all of the urban myths and you could look at All of the legends that haunt us constantly that television shows are made from. It's great It's great material no entertainment. Its great material for us. you know, But when you look at it, the one thing that hasn't changed, the one thing that could be considered mythology, which is Uphology could be considered by some mythology. But when you look at the consistency of the reporting How it's so consistent for eighty years You know,, you know, I am on much firmer ground now, certainly with all the circumstantial evidence that's out there for me to believe that you know, they're here. Now empathy is something that the aliens in War of the worldld did not have. No. they just came and they just want to slaughter W a bandon. Yeah, that was that was a nineteenth century book written by the great H.G.. I'm not blaming you. know what I'm saying No, but I'm just saying that I made a choice to you know, to make it a very aggressive fil. It was. very dark. a veryy dark film. Oh my gosh. about you know invasion and annihilation. and genocide Do you have any feelings? Oh, that's the wrong word. Do you have any on whether aliens would be sympathetic emmpathetic evil What might be their motives or their attitudes towards us? Just given your sense of the world. Well, Well my sense of the world is obviously you know, already on film with close encounters a benign, you know non human civilization coming here and ET is as benign as you could possibly imagine. any entity could be. and I believe that what's been going on is not is something that we should fear. It's something that we should be very open to in spite of how Cinema has trarained us to to just completely believe in an evil aliens. I mean, that's was with us. Yeah, if I hadn't midwar of the worlds That was not in my filmography. I would say, well, I've been trying to train us to between three movies, but where of the worlds kind of makes me a hypocric I say totally undes undoes my good intentions. And yet I do have good intentions and I am optimistic that whatever is interacting with us and whatever is here there under the water, wherever it and whoever knows the truth knows that this is notot something, you know, that we need to flee and panic. There's going to be a lot of ontological shock if this ever gets announced and the stuff that the government or the Pentagon has been releasing in trips and jrabs is kind kind of hard to see what it is, but what they're releasing is not causing going to cause any, you know, social dislocation because it's not enough. And nobody's coming out and making that big public announcement. They're here, they've been here, they've always been here. That's short of that, there is no, you know, culture shock, but ontological sh shot happens when your fundamental fundamental beliefs of what you consider reality are shattered by a new world reality. And that was, of course, comically addressed in men and Black. Yeah Y whole understanding of the world is changed. That's right. that's why they have to keep it quiet. Yeah. Yeah and they got that magic light They have the neuralizer and of courseuralizer Neuralizer, and of course it can only happen in New York City. A quick another element about empathy You expect everyone to want the government to disclose aliens. No, there are people who don't want the government to disclose any of this. Be it's not going to shake up our core truth of our core reality. might keep the rest of us in the dark? Yeah, there are people who don't really want this disclosed. not just government people, there are people in the country that would rather you know get the price of eggs down know I not have to worry about all this. But you know, in America, our movies are our culture. They're our binding force A us. So with Disclosure Day, you've already disclosed the aliens. I don't need the Pentagon anymore because Stehven Spielberg has done so. At least some people are surely going to feel that. Well, I've told a story that that is I told a story from my imagination based on credible things that I have seen and heard about and read for years But it did go through a process to be able to find a great story. It this is a chase film. This is an action picture. Yeses. You need to put on a seatbelt at a chest harness when this film starts. And it shoots you kind of out of a cannon. and you got to really pay attention and keep up and don't go on your phones and text other people. You got to go see this movie, wait until the movie's over before you talk to anybody. Watch the screen And that's very important to be able to comprehend it all. But at the same time You know, this is not a documentary this this is a story. Butre you ask great questions because that's what you've done your whole career And you know, you're one of the greatest science people that I know. Oh, thank you. I'm just trying to keep it real. You do. Stehven, thank you. Thank all right. Great to talk to you again If a spacecraft appeared in the sky tonight and it wasn't ours Would you panic? Or would you? And how might you prepare In my latest book, Take Me to your leader I offer a guide to things you might say or do in a first encounter with an alien species What we might look to them, what they might look B. What habits you should just leave at home because they won't understand them bits of science that you might be able to share. To see and explore if you have things in common Things you should and should not say, Th you should and should not do in the presence of aliens in a first encounter. You can grab a copy today. me to your leader notot only the print version Audio version. that I narrate You don't want to have a first alien encounter ready for it. just say. I am so happy to welcome NoO as a sponsor to Start Talk. Established in nineteen fourteen, NoCO provides industry leading battery power solutions including jump starters, tire inflators, battery chargers, lithium batteries, and a wide range of accessories. Through its innovative design, it provides users with dependable power for home business and recreational needs The GB forty is a one hundred A lithium jump starter that weighs two point four pounds, it handles gas engines up to six liters, and diesel up to three liters, covers most cars and SUVs on the road and can do up to twenty jump startarts on a single charge. It's not just a jumpstarter, it's a USBC power bank, a one hundred Lumen flashlight with SOS and strobe And here's why I'm really really happy to welcome NoO because I have a TriumphT one hundred and twenty and it sits during the winter because I don't ride during the winter and every spring the battery is dead. And thanks to Nokco, I don't have to worry about that anymore. I used to have to take this pretty heavy bike and run it down the hill so I could pop the clutch and start it. And if that didn't work, well, let's just say I didn't have to go to the gym for a week because I had to push it back up the hill But now, thanks to Noko, guess who's jump starting and hitting the open road. that would be me. If you've ever been stranded or worried about being stranded, if you're ever worried about anything dying on you. I mean, aside from your house plants, you need the peace of mind that Noo brings you. Let it live in your trunk in the back of your SUV and then drive with Peace of mind or keep it in your garage and don't worry about your little bonnie when you have to charge it up and get on the open road. Noco. pick it up at no. co slash GB forty. That's no d. c slash GB four zero. Use code StarTalk at no dot co for ten percent off while it lasts. That's ST A R T A L K at n O d. C o These days, we're used to getting things delivered on demand, Groceries, a new gadget or the latest book, expanding your view of the universe. And now you can add TMobile five G homeome Internet to that list. Just order from TMobile and enjoy same day delivery with doorDash. And you can set it up yourself in about fifteen minutes, no advanced engineering degree required That means more time doing the things you actually enjoy Dreaming a space documentary or going down a rabbit hole about exoplanets, asteroids, or whatever's pulling your curiosity And those online explorations are a lot easier with the fastest five G home internet If you're moving into a new place or just ready to upgrade your connection to something a little more advanced. visit t dash moobile. com slash home internet to check availability and get your home internet delivered Today Same day delivery for most internet eligible customers, see if it's an option during checkout. Fastest, according to UklA Speed Test Intelligence Data, secondcond half twenty twenty five. All right Ever notice that after thirty, a couple of drinks can hit harder the next day? That's because it's not just dehydration. Your brain and liver are doing extra work overnight. Cheers Restorer is designed to support your body while you sleep. Take it after your last drink or before bed and wake up feeling like yourself. With ingredients like DHM and cysteine It helps support normal alcohol metabolism and liver function. They offer a feel fifty percent better or your money back, guarantee. Cheers is backed by doctors, PhDs and over one thousand verified clinicians and they've sold over fifty million doses. Take Cheers restore after your last drink or before going to bed and wake up feeling at least fifty percent better your money back. For limited time, our listeners are getting twenty percent off their entire order by using code StartTalk at cheershealth. com Just head to cheershealth dot com and use code Start Talk for twenty percent off. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. so please support our show and tell them that Chuck seent you. And by that, I mean Star Talk David, welcome to StartTalk. Thank you.' G great to be you. Yeah. It's not often we get to hang out with a screenwriter Well we keep to ourselves. Oh in our room because the actors get all the shine and the red carpets. but they're just speaking your words. on a good day. you'reice to that, they'll do that. You've got quite the portfolio here, especially in the geekaverse by May. goingo back to Jurassic Park. we love it. Spideran. Personally, that was my favorite of all the Sider Man',s the first one if I may say that., well thank. if I may say that. It's okay with me. The advantage of novelty and getting to tell how something started is everything. Yeah. And we got War of the World, of course in the remake from zero five and Steven Spielberg, your primary guy that you collaborate with or you You have other are you freelancec and he just plucks you when he needs you? Well, we've done, I think this is nine or ten. Well together. So that's quite a bit. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a great collaboration. I've over thirty some years since Jurassic Park I have worked repeatedly with few others, you know, Steven Soderberg, Brian D Palma, there's like And there's there's different because there's different aspects of yourself and your interests that people are suited to. But Steven Steven's one our interests most frequently line up And can you correct something in my understanding or at least highighlight for me When you're a screenwriter You're not just writing the words people speak Aren't you Also conjuring the scene in which those words are communicated. Thanks for asking, Neil. Most certainly, yes, you are. The screenwriter's responsibility is everything an audience sees or hears And I don't think people think that. They think it's just what the the script line. But you're putting the image in front of us. Yeah. And if you're writing a scene really well, you're not using so much dialogue. You're using images, visuals, movies or visual experiences. Those are the powerful memories that we have from them. In fact, I've heard that You can always tell a first timer, when they they put everything in the script. they don't know how to use the visual medium. Yeah for all that it's worth. Yeah, it's those things, the things an audience we see the only things we can perceive in a movie are what we see in here. Those are the two senses we bring to a movie So therefore, where does the director come in? The director it depends. The director can come in from the very beginning and ask you to start. The director then comes in the good ones that can come in later after you've written the script. The good ones don't just record what you wrote, they interpret it So They will say things that Look at your material from a different point of view. I wrote this movie called Snake Eyes, Brian D Pala directed. And he asked me after one or two drafts, can you make this first fifteen pages so I can do it in one shot? and I said, no And he said, okay, give it a shot. So I went and gave it a shot and rewrote it. It never would have occurred to me. I never would have imagined it that way. I never would have interpret it that way and And that's what the director. Okay. then that's a collaboration at.ery, very tension at first, and then you resolved to something greater Yeah than either would have been. Yeah. So with Disclosure Day as presumably existed with other films There's some mixture of Science and fiction Hence the word Sci fi. Science fiction. How do you navigate that boundary. I always want to get it right if I can. I think anything that involves science, I start the idea by doing as much research as I can possibly do. Talking to people is always better than the internet, and certainly it's better than AI sources. I mean, a human to human conversation. Actual conversation with a person. novel. Be then you'll come up with unexpected things and little character things and stuff But I stop at a certain point because I now realize, well, okay, now I have to write the story The foremost responsibility of this movie is that it be entertaining So I cannot let reality and truth intrude too much on entertainment But then once I've written it, now there's another round of research, let's make this as close to reality as we can. Okay, interesteresting. so So the entertainment because Someone has to pay to see the movie and they want to do that willingly. Yeah. And it's not a documentary. It's not And they understand that going in so I don't feel like I'm misleading society. They understand this is not a documentary. But anything I do that's real and grounded in truth and reality and actual research works better. Do you have a little black book with your science consultants in there? Is that how that works? Yeah, kind of. I'd written a novel once that I needed to talk to a microbiologist for. And I wrote the whole novel and then I gave it to him and said, Now list, I found one through friends and said, l wasisten Everyone does.'re microbiologist. Okay. Ey to do. I said, read this. I want you to have a good laugh And then I want you to please, if you're interested, work with me. let's make it closer to reality And he read it and he called me and said Okay Well, it's not terrible And I took that as huge praise. I was like, all right, then let's work on it Okay, so that it's good to know that that can happen. One of my great frustrations is to hear a creative person say, I didn't want reality to constrain my creative plot lines And often eighty percent not one hundred percent time, eighty percent of the time hadad they known scientific reality more deeply The plot could have even been strengthened. Yes, rather than constrained. Exactly. becausecause the universe is often stranger than you have imagined. It's a pretty wondrous place.. And life forms are pretty unusual and varied. And you can draw more from reality than it's better reality nature has come up with something more interesting than whatever's in your head, I guarantee. So the science advice can come in presumably at any phase of this, right You want to get the story idea down, but then Touch it up as you go forward. Yeah. Well, in this case, there was a lot of research first because there's been There's been a lot, there's a lot of material. you have access, right? And you have ac gives you access. And people do want to talk. It doesn't hurt if you can say it's a Steven Spielberg movie, then they really want to talk. They actually return your phone call. Henceforth, we saved a David Kepp movie that gets one kind of return phone call, but a better one is it' the Spielberg movie So what is the process you go through as a screenwiter if you're starting with ree existing material, a novel War the world. very famous novel In fact, it's already been made into a movie in nineteen fifty one So What do you C is your role. doing that a second time in a well established piece of sci fi Well, the first thing you want to do was reread it. I'd read it as a kid and I knew the book well, but I had not read it with the intention of making it into a movie. So I read it again. I didn't watch the George Powell movie yet because I didn't want to remake that. we were trying to reinterpret the book for modern times. You reread the novel and start to think, what applies, what doesn't. But you have to have an idea for how do I make this different from a book where everything is explicit and everything is said and you know what people think and you know what they feel, and science can go on for pages How do I make this a movie experience? And the big thing in that was limiting the point of view You have to have an idea. Our idea there was, okay, let's go from one person's point of view And if they don't see it, we don't see it That's brilliant because Now I'm in suspense the whole time Right. And, you know, Steven done very well by suggesting more than he shows. So if if's a trademark. It's a trademark. It's born out of necessity, which is's It brilliant about it. The famous storyies about jaws and the shark not working. Right. And it also didn't hurt that our main character, we had Tom Cruise, who was going to be an interesting person you want to watch anyway. Right. So if you're going to restrict a point of view, that's the rule Do it with someone interesting. Right, right. So let's go to Jurassic Park for a moment. Okay. I work at the Museum of Natural History. You're a neighbor. Yeah. and surely you've seen our Velvelocaaptor Yeah. we have a fossil velociraptor on display. It's not much bigger than a large dog In Jurassic Park, okay, it was sort of pumped up to be human sized so that eye contact is a thing. Could you describe to me The role of eye contact in storytelling Ooh, that's not where I thought you were going That's good. No mean very good. It can be love or you could be the person's next meal. Yeah. eyes are everything here. partarticularly I mean, one of the ideas behind Jurassic Park there's you know, there's the central brilliant Crichton once in a lifetime idea of, you know, the preservation of the DNA and ammber, which is fantastic The other Cay Michael Craytones, Yes, yes. The other idea is Rearranging our place in the food chain. That has worked in a couple of jaws, notably, and certainly Jurassic Park. We love to think about that. I think because it hits us in a very elemental place.erally. We used to hide in caves and worry about the cries of the tigers at night. and you're bringing that back to life Please. Yeah all Eactly Let's talk bus. Yeah. Well, that's how we know we've got your attention. It's like, you know how Disney movies always kill a parent early on. Okay. They grab those kids' attention and hold ono it. And I think eye cont the superheroes, they're all orphans, right? So Yes. ye. Yeah. But you you're quite right, eye contact is a vital part of that And I think the sequence one of the sequences people really remember is when the G Hunter is stocked and defeated by the veloc Raptor that comes around the side of him. and the thing we see that reveals the raaptor is the eye Eyes really are portals to everything. Okay. so you're affirming what I suspected is that this is an important Yeah out of your of the intensity of a scene. Yeah. Yeah I'm intrigued as you describe your access to our primal fears. and how you exploit that in the storytelling. But there are also perhaps other primal emotions that pererhaps serve their your storytelling needs. In Disclosure Day, empathy was an important Piece of that Oh, it's it's it's everything. It was Stevens Notion, which is embodied in a beautiful monologue Coleman Domingo delivers. O coescent. I'm listening to you, Noah. somethingomething I've learned quite a bit about. Mo friends? Yes They regard empathy as an evolutionary advantage, as the foremost evolutionary advantage, in fact, the core of animate existence. Our rejection of this understanding is leading us to our extinction. Empathy can be seen as the foremost necessary evolutionary quality. It's another way I think of saying cooperation. great human accomplishment is only done through cooperation. You can go back to the agrarian Revolution and say the idea that we all must plant and harvest this stuff and then help each other store it is what led to the massive explosion in population. It's what led to the success of the civilization. Civilization, buildilding a bridge do it unless we do it together U And I think that that's that sometimes gets overlooked as a necessary next evolutionary step which is increased empathy, understanding others and working with others is the only thing that'll let us succeed and prevent our own destruction. I don't want to speak for you in your craft, The greatest of the villains are the ones that you have some feeling for in some way. Otherwise they're just you know, kill them off. That's what Mr. Spielberg is so good at is insisting that every character is a character Even a villain, why are they a villain? What is it that's pushing them? They don't please let no one twirl their mustache. there there's a scene in the movie that follows a massive train chase. You see it in the trailer, so I'm not giving anything away It's thrilling. It's great action filmmaking. The traditional end of that scene is the release of they Escaped. Oh, thank goodness But there's another scene that follows it. which is an incredibly emotional scene in the box car And that's Steven the early drafts of the script didn't have that scene. and he said, But this is the most frightening thing that's ever happened to them in their entire lives. There would be emotional fallout. Can we see that? Uh and that's just being attuned to character. I deeply remember that scene because it was lly unexpected.. They drop into a box car. It could have been anything and it' it's a quuiet tender scen Yeah, emotionally violent inside, but there are people working together to try to resolve those feelings. Yeah. Because at different times we're asking ourselves, does the Colin Frth character have it right Is he protecting civilization? Whose side should we be on? And I can tell you that You know, yes, I want disclosure, oforis, but you can see where he's coming from. He makes a fair point. We have not traditionally done well with sudden dramatic cultural change. And we're not doing well right now. So speak to me again, the importance of being able to Smpathize or empathize even with peopleople branded as evil In a story. Well you have to do your honest best to understand their point of view and to actually believe it We did an interesting process on this script where there were five main characters At one point, we did a draft solely from the point of view of that character. 'm not saying we rewrote the entire script, so it's only them, but thinking about every scene and every moment only from their point of view. And that really helps you strengthen their arguments. I think Collin's character is quite right. about most of what he says He goes too far, but I think he's right about what he says. And I don't think if the action of the movie continued after the last moment of the movie I don't think it's all peaches and cream. I think there's a lot of tumult that's coming given the points of view We We're treated to really, becausecause then at the end, we'd make our own resolution, right? And that's allowed. I kept asking myself Would my level I've pathy for the aliens because that's really what it came down to. I just wonder Suppose that footage wasn't there And you just had sort of UFO sightings, and maybe an alien from a crash saucer lifted onto a stretcher Wood We still feel As much as we did, were it not for that just one squealing alien? No, I don't think we would have. And I think it's telling that that's Josh's character says That's the footage Hugo showed me to get me to agree to do this. too join the the meet me. And that means everything because it's a great turn on every single thing we've always thought about aliens. They're omnipotent Because they can handle interstell or travel, they're gods. They can do everything we can' and they're invulnerable But no, they're not and their ships can crash and they can be injured and we can do terrible things because we have kind of a history of doing terrible things. Th with dicks. Sometimes Simes. So okay, because that's I thought that I don't want to call it a turning point, but that was a key. Shift in the depth of my empathy that I would have for the aliens. Now of course in ET, you know, they grab them and they towards the end, they want to operate them on them cut them open or whatever they were going to do to medical doctors out of curiosity, I suppose, but it's still Once you've built a relationship with the character up until then, that's just evil at that level. However, in Disclosure Day, we don't yet have a relationship with the alien. No. We didn't look it in the eyes yet So Why did that work so well? It I hadn't thought of it that way until you said it. It's a really strong structural underpinning of the script because it subverted our expectations and it demanded that we question things we had just taken for granted You see, but you see this kind of, you know, like this kind of deep empathy is in Spielberg's work all the way through. just as you were talking was thinking about jaws And while the shark no one has sympathy for the jaws. No, but it's no sympathy for sure. But it's presented as just doing what it does. It's an animal. It needs to eat. It needs to eat, sleep, and make baby sharks. And that's what it's doing. You can't judge it for that.. I just got to deal with it It's just being a just stay out of its lane. you know? It's just being a shark. Yeah. You can't can't blame a shark for being a shark and Maybe it's because we know the alien has intelligence. and that's a threshold that above which we care about or we resonate with Do youd agree with that? I think so. Yeah. I mean, I think with some animals we kind of are kiding ourselves that they don't have an intelligence where they might understand what's happening Of course. And the more we study animals, the more intelligent we find out that they are. Yeah. My daughter, who's a vegetarian would say we are all kidding ourselves and we're horribly cruel So you'll never be as wokeen as your daughter. mayaybe not. Have you considered the possibility that the evil alien trope, which was not that was not what Cosure day was about. But We when we've encountered other humans of lower technological prowess is never voded well for the, you know, in the whole era of colonization, people were enslaved, killed You know, And so we imagine these evil aliens Would you agree that that might just be a mirror to ourselves? Yeah, I think we're imputing our history onto them. I think we assume, well, the Spaniards wiped out the Aztecs. therefore, this is what's going R right on down. and that's just one of many examples that could be given. So for Stephven in multiple movies W the world's accepted T have an alien that is not does not want to harm you. This is a little weird given the tropes we are fed. Yeah It's another way of thinking about it, which is But that's and it's fairly consistent across his four movies where he's touched on the subject. In three of the cases, Maybe they I don't know if they're benevolent or not, but they're certainly not mulllevolent. And then in War of the Worlds, it's, you know, anything goes. Yeah. But that's just for diversity of viewpoint What do you think of people who are capable of great harm Inside they think they're doing the right thing as a Green writer What do you do about that? Well, you have to have the second part of what you said. You have to have the inside they think they're doing the right thing. And you have to think of it from their point of view and find real reasons to justify why that might be the right thing. Why might they be correct? Because any good actor is going to come in, well first of all, your story' better that way. But any good actor is gets two dimensional, right? I mean Yeah, and you're not really you stop paying attention. you don't take the movie as seriously. You're not as engaged. Okay. But any good actor is going to come in and act like their character's lawyer. and they're going to say, Now you're not fairly representing my clients's interests here You better be right.bestly? Absolutely. Oh my gosh. single minded point of view. I never thought about that. Okay. 'cause this is that's their craft. Yeah. And they have to do it. They have to stand at Colin had to stand up there and say these things. Right and find them believable and justifiable genuine for himself. So do you have to write better material support for Startalk Radio comes from talkabpD dot com Let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of, and it turns out it's more common than you'd think, Peroni's disease or PD for short PedD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis This can cause a curve with a bump during an erection and for some men lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lower self esteem, and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy becausecause of this Some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about PD. The actual cause of PD isn't always known In some cases, it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity. The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment To learn more about Piron's disease, visit talkboutpd. com Eczema is unpredictable. But you can flare less with eGlS. A once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four month or longer dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EGLS achieved itch relief and glare are almost glare skin at sixteen weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more glare at one year, with monthly dosing. EGlS L Givesap LBK a two hundred fifty milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children twelve years of age and older who weigh at least eighty eight pounds or forty kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called aopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBGlS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe, eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems, you should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBGLS Before starting Eplus, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection Ask our doctor about EBlS, and visit EBlus. liily. com or call one eight hundred Lily R X or one one hundred five four five five nine seven nine. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why, drivers have trusted progressives name your price tool for years Just tell prorogressive what you want to pay and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. Visit progressive. com to find a car insurance rate that works for you. Progressive casualty insurance compompany and affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law This is Ken the Nerdneck Zebera from Michigan and I support StarTalk on Patreon This is Star Talk Radio with Neil DeGras Tyson I can't have been the only one to have head. thought of the day the eararth stood still. Oh yeah, when disclosure Day comes and everyone has stopped and is looking at their smartphone The world stopped All I can think of was the day the earth stood still. Yeah. Were you thinking that as well? I mean Sure. But that is how it happens. I mean, that's what we all remember take the pivotal events in history and remember where you were when. We all do. And there are some things that happen that are so consequential, you stop Everybody stops. Some reference that movie's a landmark and I adore it. And so some reference Not necessarily that you're consciously referring to those things, but you're not running away from it either. You're not saying, well, we can't do that because today the Earth could still do it. Well, yes, because that's what would happen Becauseuse it would happen. Yeah. you know, just You're both representing a reality, you're not copying each other.. It's a separate reality that you're both trying to capture. Yes Yeah And it was clearly manifest where On the front lines peoplee might have been ready to fight which is, of course, a persistent them in the background of the entire film These are hotbed spots in the current news with Russia and Ukraine and Korea and, you know, South Korea, North Korea, we it's there and When Earth stood still, there were these soldiers lookingooking at their smart phone. There's a moment that everything stops and no matter who you are, no matter who. And it reminds was conveyed Brilliantly. Good. Silently and brilliantly. Yeah, well, a lot of the best things in movies are done without dialogue. Yeah. And it reminded me of who was the astronaut who Most of them, actually, when they're in space and they look back at the Eth There is an inevitable feeling of, oh my goodness, we're very small and we're all in this together. Butight the two layers of that, there's the overview effect that the astronauts have gone into orbit have experienced Th then there's what I would that up a bit and cosmic perspective when you're on the moon and the entire Eth is there justust adrift in darkness. That would be a full up cosmic perspective. Yeah. But you don't get that perspective unless you step out. Yes. And so our challenge is how do we get that to happen? but obviously we stay here on Earth. So the whole movie, you're treating us to chaos of the world with familiar places we've seen in the news where there's conflict. You didn't have to do that, but it was there. So you're kind of setting us up believe that disclosure might remedy that, I guess, is that was this an explicit thought that you had? That's an excellent speculation, and I hope so. What we wanted the end of this movie to be was like somebody clapping their hands together in front of your face. to say Wake the pakeu up. And then in that moment, what's next I would love to see what's next. I have my own ideas about what's next, but the I smell sequel Because you can't answer every single question all at once, we wanted the whole notion of getting this, what we've been fighting the entire movie to do is to get this information out, get the truth out to people. Now, what effect willill that truth have? It's a part of what you said earlier.'s you don't have to have the empathy for these extraterrestrials. You don't have to have Earth in such terrible chaos But the That that's the purpose of the story, and that's what makes us involve ourselves So I have just some more sharpened Technical questions. What's funny to me is no one has ever actually seen an alien or brought forth an alien that we are aware of. But we all know what aliens look like. I just find that you can draw an alien with big eyes, you know, bald head. ust once, give me an alien with hair. An alien is humanoid, that could be mammallian and all mammals have hair. Give it like a nice haird. I'll tell you what really fascinates me. We do have a sort of universal perception of what we think aliens look likeed.'s embedded. It's embed It's based on movies, it's based on lore, it's based on what we think an interpretation of our physical self Here's what's interesting to me We can perceive what do we see between about four thousand and seven thousand gstroms , let'ss a visionual light. Yeah. That's what we can see. What we can hear, I don't know how many decibels or, but I know our dogs can hear more than we can. So we're twenty to twenty thousand hertz Thank you. It's very easy to remember. and dogs can hear higher pitches than twenty thousand herz. But not lower than twenty. No, not lower than twenty. Right. But I feel it because it becomes a pulse Right, Right. So I asked the right guy. But those are fairly crude senses. So we invented some devices that could help us see other things, know, the telescope, all the things we've invented. is modern science. lastast hundred years That's really gone far. Is modern science Who's to say we certainly aren't still perceiving everything that exists around us. We're perceiving a lot more with the help of our gizmos. But who is to say these alien lifeformms don't exist in a form that we can't yet perceive I find that as the agnostics