Reflecting on Identity and Activism

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Find your freedom here at Ocalamarian. com Little Bob here, it's America's two hundred and fiftieth birthday. So shop the furniture America's waited two hundred and fifty years for at Bob's discount furniture. We've got ultra comfy power reclining sofas, stylish dining sets with convenient lift topop storage, best selling bedrooms with over seven hundred five star reviews, and a feature packed pop up sleeper sofa with built in shelving, and those signature Bobapedic seats So stop into Bobs disiscount furniture or shop online at mybobs. com where America shops for furniture. Chief Justice, it please the court It's an old joke, but when a arguing man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word , not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity said I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet ours Hello and welcome back to Stict Srutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. We're your host today? I'm Melissa Murray. I'm Kate Saw. And I'm Leah Litman. and here's the plan for today. It's been quite a week for the deal goes, as it were, so we are going to start with legal news and then cover Spreme Court opinions. Finally, we will bring you a great conversation Kate and Melissa recently had with one of Kate's colleagues at Penn Law, Dorothy Roberts, about her terrific recent book, The Mixed Marriage Project We might interperse some favorite things before that interview, some after little special announcements, so be sure to stay tuned for all of that U first, the legal news. Well, folks, it's official. We've have what everyone's been waiting for. You guessed it a slush fund for insurrectionists. Yes, that's right. The Trump administration will be trying to give your tax dollars to your friendly local neoonfederate trador, or as they like to call them, the true victims of lawfare and the weaponization of the Department of Justice Are we being taxed ladies for not doing an insurrection? or are we losing out because we were not insurrection forward It sure feels like that, doesn't it? Like all of us, we are all being taxed for that So just to fill in the backstory a little bit, within hours of Trump filing a notice that he was dismissing his absurd ten billion dollars lawsuit against his own IRS A lawsuit remember where he was asking himself as president to have the IRS that he supervises fork over ten billion with theB dollars of public money to Donald Trump himself along with his kids and his business Within hours of that, the DOJ announced that it was creating an almost two billion dollars account to pay those who have allegedly suffered at the hands of the weaponization of DOJ Almost two billion dollars, but At least as conceived, actually one billion seven hundred seventy six million, get it? seventeen seventy six. Maybe they do read Not sure, but possibly. Some of us are thinking about constructive ways to commemorate this important event, like those of you listening and not watching on YouTube, writing a whole ass book like Melissa Murray, the US Constitution, a comprehensive and annotated guide for the modern reader, not user, or user, both. Anyway, that fun Would have been faster. No what this administration is doing because these are the only things it really knows how to do are troll and engage in self dealing. and this slush fund is both I'd like to take a few beats on the ostensible beneficiaries of said slush Fund. in fact I would like to stare and representative Lamonica McGiver I would like to stare in New York Attorney General Tish James. I would like to stare in former FBI director Jim Comey. I would like to stare in every single protester who has been indicted or arrested by the Gon squads and so much more Are they the victims of lawfare? Apparently not So I was actually thinking about filing a claim myself, given that I personally have been a victim of Sam Alito's lawfair and Neil Gorsuch's lawfair. In fact, if you are listening, everyone raise your hand. If you have been personally victimized by the Supreme Court's lawfair, you'll notice that everyone around you is raising their hand Unfortunately, the settlement defines me and likely you out of eligibility. We probably shouldn't even be calling this thing a settlement. It's an agreement between Trump and Trump's former personal lawyer, Todd Blanche, AKA Carte Blanche, who's now the acting head of what Trump likes to call Trump's DOJ. So it's Trump on both sides of the V, which is part of what makes this a deal doough But the settlement agreement slash deildo defines the lawfare victims who are eligible for funds as the victims of lawfare that is defined to mean the quote sustained use of the levers of government power by Democrat elected officials. cannot make this up. Okay. so This was announced as a quote unquote settlement in the litigation Trump versus IRS, which we were just talking about. But as Leah just suggested, it really shouldn't be called a settlement at all because it's just an agreement between the parties and the parties are both. Trp So it's Trump and the IRS slash DOJ. But again, Trump on both sides of the V, because those parties did not ask for court approval likely because they could not get it Be the lawsuit is just, I think, designed to provide the kind of patina of legality to this massive grift, which is a point the three of us made in a piece last week in the San Francisco Chronico I just want to reiterate, this isn't a settlement. It's really like a legal selfie Right? You're just like taking a picture of yourself settling with yourself Right Yeah Yeah Money for the slush Fund is supposedly coming from what is known as the Judgment fund. This is an account that's available to the Department of Justice for settling lawsuits A group of five people who were selected by Donald Trump's former personal attorney and now current acting attttorney General Todd Blanche will oversee its operations. And one of those five people will be selected in consultation with congressional leadership. That's something maybe one of us might be selected to serve as that congressionally appointed supervisor of said slush Fund Do you think? I'm not going h sure that phone call will come in. I bet it's Lisa Cook. I bet she's going to get the nod Aless, even if we were selected or if Lisa Cook was selected, Trump can fire the members of the oversight group at will which means he effectively controls them. The fund will determine its own procedures for reviewing claims, which is shorthand for saying that all claims will be awarded based solely on vibes Indeed, the slush bag itself seems to be a whole vibe given that within twenty four hours of announcing the deal do, the deal do had already been amended to try and fuck over the country and the American people even more. So the Trump DOJ announced that it had expanded the just announced settlement slush fund to include a pledge that the DOJ slash IRS will no longer pursue any claims it might have against Trump, his family members and his companies This seems to be trying to bar the IRS from auditing the Trump family and Trump organizations for All Eetternity and maybe also trying to bar DOJ from pursuing any claim it might have against Donald Trump again for All Eernity. And this all certainly seems like it's on the up and up Although it seems like they may have been trying to do some kind of self pardon without calling it self pardon, I'm not sure they really got it done the way they hope to because this again is nothing more than an agreement. It's just a contract, which means I'm no contracts professor, but I'm pretty sure I recall that A contract is subject to various kinds of challenges like being unconscionable or against public policy And it's manifest impropriety as in its obvious legal defects also mean it's a contractual agreement on which a party like say Trump could not reasonably rely, which would mean that a future DOJ should be able to hold him accountable for legal violations, notwithstanding this promise to the contrary also mean that the amendment to the agreement, right, the one that actually included all of this like effort at self pardoning for any sort of tax law violations, might not be binding because to modify a contract, there is supposed to be what's called consideration So both sides are supposed to give each other something DOJ seems to have just gifted Trump a promise that he be above the law, which actually might not be a meaningful enforceable agreement Just trying to describe this apostasy makes clear how shockingly corrupt and lawless it actually is. Is this even the worst and most corrupt scam of the administration? I mean, genuine question, there's so many to choose from, but I think this may actually be it I I think so like it's tough competition with all the grift from the prediction markets to the cash. That's cash with a dollar sign burbon. So the m take cash. Contracts. Right Sorry to Krispy nes, government contracts, going to companies with ties to the administration to crypto pay to play schemes to money for pardons. There's also the recent news and disclosures about how Trump has promoted stocks he was personally trading in, and how he's traded in hundreds of millions of stocks in twenty twenty six alone. I'd call it insider trading, but it seems not to be that insider. It's just straight up public facing market manipulation. Also this week, the New York Times reported that Reynolds, the tobacco company, donated five million to a Trump backed super pack And then by some miracle, the following week, the FDA turned around and issued new guidance that could make it easier for big tobacco companies, like Reynolds to begin selling flavored f. Did you all hear the commercials that aired over the weekend thanking President Trump for relaxing the rules around flavored bpes Chef Kiss, amazing. A common sense approach to tobacco cessation Wow. Great, thanks, President Trump cuty is brought to you by Cosy Earth. What does it feel like when your clothes actually feel Really good. This spring, Cozy Earth makes the case that what you wear at home matters just as much as what you wear outside of the home. In fact, it may matter even more Consider Cozy Earth's brushed bamboo jogger set The jogger said it just enough structure to feel intentional, like you meant to do this But it can move with you all throughout your day. 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So let us just try to elaborate a bit further just how shocking this is First, there is the fact that they are using taxpayer money for these payouts. At least the insider slash public facing, like blatant trading was with, I think, their own money. This is Our money Qion, is this what you would call reparations? The Black delegation says no Okay, I too say no. G. This is what they called interest convergence. All right, So I would argue that what this really is is theft of taxpayer money for personal gain If you can, while you're listening, look up a picture of the individuals who were storming the Capitol on january sixth, twenty twenty one, the people carrying zip ties and wearing like shaman like horns Is that where you want your tax dollars to go? your hard earned tax dollars? Because that is exactly where it might be headed. It's also a potential pay for peto scheme. if you just think of the number of January sixers who are back in jail for child pornography or other sex offenses. Indeed, this came up Tod Blanche's recent appearance in the Senate, as you can hear here. Let me go back to this slush fund because There's also an individual who after being pardoned by the president went on to molest Two children And that person actually tried to buy the silence of these children by saying that he would pay them some of the funds that he was hoping to get from your slush fund. Can you commit to making the rule so that that person is not eligible for a payout under this fund? Well, you're obviously lying in your question because there's no way that this person committed to that But the slush fund, as you call it, which is not didn't I' am sure But I can't commit. This officeter atttorney General Don't ever do that again. I am reporting what a He said As you may also have heard, the acting attttorney generenal's response was not a no That was really wild. I'm gonna to take I'm going to sort of fly spec this like part of the premise of your question, but not actually respond to the substance Because the sort of you're obviously lying was because Van Holland referenced this slush fund as opposed to a general promise to like, you know get money from the federal government. But he very much sidestepped the substance of the question, and that seemed really revealing to me. Girls, imagine storming the Capitol calling for the vice president to be hanged and for the Speaker of the House to be murdered. And Here's the best part getting paid for it That that is the dream. with taxpayer money, the American people's money, like that. is the American dream It's not enough to just legalize insurrection retroactively through the Supreme Court and an immunity decision and mass pardons like now. We're actually making insurrection profitable. You love to see it Anyway, more seriously though, some people might actually argue that this is exactly how you create the infrastructure for another insurrection, right? You buy yourself an army and you secure government resources to fund them going forward. I mean, that seems to be where this is headed. You did fil. I will pay you... And to be clear, like who is the party responsible for this? the political party that was apoplelectic about student debt forgiveness and is now obviously all in on insurrection forgiveness, you know, having basically an insurrection forgiveness fund. But as Melissa was just suggesting, just about paying out participants in this past conduct. It is pretty clearly about providing a permission structure and even encouragement of future lawlessness. And obviously just to further highlight the hypocrisy, there is no money that I have seen suggested, you know or flowing for say families forcibly separated by Donald Trump during Trump one point zero but there is, of course Plenty of money to the tune again of almost two billion dollars for insurrectionists. Also there they've been like Having this meltdown about a California free diaper program just like in the last week. That thing that's happened this week. Right, exactly. Very good. Just price tag, nineteen million dollars change compared to this fund Some listeners might also recall the lawsuit that DOJ is filing I mean criminal indictment against the Southern Poverty Law Center when they indicted the organization because they said that organization was somehow funding hate groups while it was actually investigating them. If that was a criminal conspiracy and it wasn't, This slush fund is a criminal conspiracy many, many times over. And this Dal Doough can also be a criminal conspiracy even if the SPLC indictment doesn't describe onerect. So stunning potential for corruption and also a lot of questions that we still don't have answers to. So will some of this money go personally to Trump to his friends, to his family, his lawyers, Giuliani, Powell, Eastman They see how his lawyers finally get paid That we' even asking these questions out loud is an indictment of the most serious kind of this entire enterprise. and this abomination of a fund. Well here's a superseding indictment. Will some of the money go to January sixers who were storming the capapitol When he was asked these questions directly, here's what the Pident of the United States had to say about it. Do you believe that people who committed violence against Capitol Hill police officers on january sixth should be eligible for compensation from this DOJ fund? And are you or your family members going to be seeking compensation from that fund? It'll all be dependent on a committee. A committee is being set up talented people, very highly respected people. I think it's a committee of five. and again, I didn't do this deal. Once again, listeners, that was not a no. Also, it's up to the committee that I control, not reassuring did want to draw attention to one clause clause D of the deal Do, which is maybe fitting Big D of the deal Do. This one says that quote, Once the funds are deposited, the United States has no liability whatsoever for the protection or safeguarding of those funds regardless of bank failure, fraudulent transfers, or misuse of the funds. que Is the United States indemnifying itself against crimes committed with the money that it is paying out from this insurrectionist slush fund? Like why do you think crimes might be committed with this insurrection slush fund? Big D energy Anyway, Somehow, with absolutely zero appreciation of the irony, on the very day this slush fund was announced Our vice president, JD Vance, gave a speech And we wanted to play just a bit of that Fighting fraud in Washington, DC, it's a little bit like fishing in a barrel with a nuclear weapon It is the easiest thing to find. Every single day, my staff will bring me new reports of the ways that you're being defrauded And there are all these There's a simple principle that I have which is if you are committing fraud against the American people, you ought to go to prison If you are a public official and you're not fighting against fraud, you ought to have your money taken away because you should not be able to steal from all of you and give it to fraudsters Guess what, AD Sometimes it bees your own people. alsoso remind listeners, viewers that One of the presidency ending scandals of Richard Nixon was that Nixon had a slush fund that he used for political hits and rewards. like how big was that slush fund Honestly, it was like less than twenty thousand dollars. It could literally fit in brown paper bags. That was that slush fund? Maybe a Kava bag. Yeah. I mean, like a little mini one. So the Nixon corruption seems impossibly quaint today All presidential corruption scandals of the past, The Harding administration, the Grant administration All of the other corruptions just pale in comparison. Really all of them together, I think, pale in comparison to what we were seeing with just this fund It is also a massive threat to the separation of powers Because it is essentially a template for allowing the executive branch to fund essentially any program that it wants to by engineering some conclusive litigation that it could quote settle by establishing a fund for its desired program. So this deal though, is a purported against settlement resulting from a case brought by Trump against Trump's DOJ that settles the case against Trump's DOJ By purporting to allow the DOJ to pay money to whoever Trump wants, you could rinse and repeat in any number of ways to fund God who can imagine the sorts of odious activities they might want to pursue this way This is another seizure of a power that the Constitution assigns to Congress, the power of the purse But fear not, as Kate was suggesting up top, the cash value of the fund was set at one point seven seven six billion doars. a nod to the nation's founding, just like the founders intended Am I doing originalism right? Neil and Clarence? This is a seventeen seventy six fund for traders Benedict Arnold, great again H man Okay This is all part of a pattern that the three of us have actually written about. We have to get this draft up on SSRN ladies. but we've written a paper where we argue that the president has filed lawsuits and then reached settlements that ratify his dubious and in some cases delusional, borderline, sanctionable views about what the law is and does so in ways that vastly expand the scope of executive power, maybe even encroaching on the judiciary's power to say what the law is. It is absolutely bonkers and someone ought to call it out for what it is And the paper makes clear, this is just essentially the culmination of this trend. We have seen versions of this in students A againainst media companies and executive orders, targeting law firms and universities. And it is all part of the same strategy, but this is, without question, the most egregious example to date There are also very serious arguments that on top of the other legal issues we have already canvassed, this proposed settlement is illegal in still other ways. So there's the fourteenth Amendment. Leah alluded to this in passing during our last episode. But section four of the fourteenth Amendment, we all had to get up to speed on section three not so long ago. There's another one, section four. It says qu Neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave but all such debts, obligations, and claims shall be held illegal and void. Sherlin Eiffel had a post about this, Representative Jamie Raskin has gestured to this. very serious argument that this fund, which will insurrectionist violates section four There is also some federal regulations, so thirty one CFR two fifty six point one, That is the federal regulation on the Department of Treasury's role in paying awards and settlements from the judgment fund. It authorizes awards or settlements that are, quote, monetary Is this settlement monetary? There's an offffice of Legal counsel opinion that says the fund isn't available for anything other than direct payments. And so it's not clear, you know where DOJ thinks it's getting authority to do other things, like make an apology to Donald Trump or something like that. Then there is thirty one USC section thirteen hundredh four, which is the federal statute on the judgment fund, and it sets up an account, this pot of money that Congress has appropriated to allow DOJ to pay the settlements that it reaches. It allows settlements when the attorney general is defending imminent litigation or a lawsuit, but the settlement claim is only supposed to be paid, quote in a manner similar to judgments in like causes How could that possibly be satisfied here? There is no judgment in any cause that is similar, nor would there be because in this case and any similar case, there's no justicable controversy, and there's certainly not going to be any sort of judgment growing out of it. There's also language from previous Scotus opinions that suggests this fund is illegal, like OPM versus Richmond, which said, quote the general appropriation for payment of judgments in any event does not create an all purpose fund for judicial disbursement And that opinion also notes the possibility of collusive lawsuits in particular. So the acting atttorney generenal, AKA Trump's former personal attorney, put out a memo that purorted to explain why this slushbag Slease fund shakedown was legal. In hindsight, maybe there should only be two S's used to describe this abomination. Think about that one for a second. Anyways, it's not legal. and you can drive a truck through the legal analysis. So just to take one example, the memo cites a fund originating from the Keeps Eagle case as precedent for this fund, but in Keeps Eeagle, there was a court approved settlement That one here Also, in that case, there was a certified class, thati. a court certified a class of people who were potentially injured. No such thing here. There was an administrative claims process in that case that happened in front of a neutral body and held claims to evidentiary standards. No such thing here, no guaranteed. transparency, rules, accountability, just Todd Blanche and some people the president can fire at will could go on, but So listeners, we've received your questions about who can challenge this abomination Unfortunately, the district court that was hearing Trump's nominal lawsuit against the IRS, That was the one where there were real questions about just disability because the president was literally on both sides of it That was the precipitating basis for the settlement slush fund. But because that case was dismissed without appointing anyone or holding a hearing to look into the legality of the quote unquote settlement, We're not really going to be able to have anything going forward. And all of that is kind of a bummer, a real missed opportunity. So there are some potential obstacles. so taxpayers, as a general matter, can't sue just because they don't like the way their taxes are being spent or even because they think those taxes are being spent in illegal ways, at least in the federal system possible that people who would be or could be compensated out of the general judgment fund from which this money might be drawn could have standing to claim they are injured. We actually already had two officers who were injured in the attack in the Capitol sue to challenge this fund. It's not entirely clear that they've established that they would be injured by it. So again, that could pose an obstacle to their litigation. But there will be other lawsuits mark my But again, challenging collusive litigation is tough. There is no getting around it. What might be the solution here Well Let me look in Article one. Oh, a Congress Congress might be good here. I foundounded? I did. It's right here in Article one of the Constitution, you read it for the articles Congress, I'm told, is authorized to pass laws They also have the power of the purse, which means they could withhold funds. They also have oversight power, which means they might hold hearings about the use of this fund and how funds are being disburersed. Wait for it Congress could sue if it wanted to, although, the courts could also impeach Speaking of the courts, you know who probably loves this entire thing ike John Roberts and his band of boys, it is pushing their voting rights decisions out of the news cycle, even though they bear a lot of the blame here. Like who told this guy, Donald Trump, he could commit crimes with impunity and be above the law He learned it from watching you Dad, who flat out told him he had plenary authority over the Department of Justice, and it didn't matter why he was ordering DOJ to do things After we recorded our regular episode, some news came out about real weaponization of DOJ and lawfare Some of you might be familiar with the case of the so called Broad View Six, the indictment of six people, including the then congressional candidate, Kat Abu Aaleia protesting outside of the Broadview Immigration detention Center in Illinois during the Operation Midway Blitz Prosecutors indicted multiple individuals for allegedly conspiring to impede a federal agent with some signs and megaphones and allegedly pushing or scratching a car while the protesters were on foot and the agent in a car These charges were always outlandish, but They were felonies and they faced up to seven years in prison. Well, last Thursday evening, the prosecutor dismissed the charges with prejudice, which means the defendants cannot be charged again This dismissal came as the defense attorneys pushed to have the full transcripts of the grand jury proceedings released. So the grand jury is the jury before the jury. It's the group of people prosecutors have to convince to issue an indictment in order to charge someone with a felony. And well, well, well At a hearing, the judge described she was shocked by what she saw in the redactions of the transcripts and that she had never seen these types of prosecutorial behavior. So what did she see A lot, something called vouching, which prosecutors absolutely cannot do in front of a grand jury, where there's no defense attorney there. Prosecutors supposed to present evidence to the grand jury and the grand jury neutrally and impartially decides whether the evidence, the facts, suggest defendants may have actually committed a crime is where the prosecutor basically says Don't worry, trust me, I'm a prosecutor. There were definitely crimes here. I may not have evidence, but there's some secret additional evidence and you can trust me. That completely eviscerates the role of the grand jury and its function. This is the kind of stuff a judge suggested forormer, whatever US attorney Lindseay Halligan did, that's the former insurance lawyer who obtained indictments against Jim Comey and Tiss James only for the indictments to be promptly dismissed In the Broadview case, the judge also said the prosecutor communicated about the substance of the case with grand jurors outside of the grand jury room trying to communicate with them off the record in secret. I don't know why these people are obsessed with off the record. Recall Lindsey Halligan texting the lawfare editor and trying to tell her this is all off the record gain on the Broadview case, worse still. the prosecutor excused grand jurors, dismissed them sent them out of the room When grand jurors didn't want to return an indictment And then they continued to ask the remaining grand jurors to indict the defendant Bically that's a way for the government to whittittle down the grand jury to include only those people who are willing to go along with what the government does, again, completely undermining. function of the grand jury which is supposed to be independent, impartial is also the stuff, all of this that the government tried to redact conceal from the judge and the defendants stuff that would absolutely require The felony case to be dismissed immediately Instead, the government concealed this and then tried to keep these transcripts ever seeing the light of day by dismissing the felony charges and keeping a misdemeanor charge. and misdemeanor charges don't require a grand jury. So then the government said, Oh, you don't actually need to see these, no big deal forced the defendants to continue defending themselves for almost a whole entire year evenven as prosecutors knew all this had happened The judge in the case is obviously not happy with them, even though the case is dismissed, she's reserving the possibility of sanctioning the government lawyers, fining There were ethical violations as she should because that's the kind of stuff that gets people disbargred. It should be career ending. and the judge also told prosecutors that this evidence really made a case for the defendant claiming all of this. was what are called vindictive prosecutions also known as the weaponization of DOJ and laawfare prosecuting, persecuting people, because of who they are not what they did. And that also would have required the dismissal of the misdemeanor charges Basically, the prosecutors are junking all the legal protections and rules that exist in the world just to go after certain people because of what they say and believe. Given how frequently this seems to be happening This should raise questions about so many cases, all cases Even lower profile ones they're out of the public eye And with that We are now back to our regularly recorded episode. N yearne is brought to you by Zbiotics pre alcohol. Let's face it, after a night of drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to I have to make a choice. I can either have a great night or a great next day. Well, not anymore. 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Please support strict scrutiny and let them know that we sent you Federal DOJ lawyers are doing fuck knows what. otherther prosecutors are still into enforcing the law and that includes the prosecutors in Minnesota And indeed, the same day that DOJ announced its slush fund for insurrectionists, state prosecutors in Minnesota announced that an Ice officer is being charged in conjunction with a non fatal shooting and the Minnesota officials are charging him with second degree assault and one count of falsely reporting a crime. Here, the Trump administration basically admitted that the officers involved lied under oath about the shooting. A federal judge dismissed charges based on the officers' account, and federal officials opened an investigation into whether the officers had lied about what happened These are the first reported charges arising out of an enforcement action or enforcement proceeding. And the last indictment concerned an officer who went Berserk while driving on duty. So this is huge I love that the goher state is making federalism great again. Go ahead, Minnesota Texas, on the other hand, does not seem to understand this whole federalism thing at all. So in the last episode, Kate and Leah talked about DOJ's egregious forum shopping. So DOJ went to Texas and filed a case in a Texas district court to enforce a subpoena that required a Rhode Island hospital to provide information about its provision of medical care to trans people The hospital challenged the subpoena in a Rhode Island court, which issued an opinion barring the DOJ from enforcing the subpoena. and the court also issued some choice words for DOJ. Guess what? You know who took that personally A district judge in Texas won Reed O'Connor He decided to go nuclear. He issued what's called an anti suit injunction that purorted to bar the plaintiffs in the case from filing anything further in Rhode Island Court or in the First Circuit, which is the Court of Appeals that oversees Rhode Island, or in any court other than his court or alternatively the Fth Circuit It's not forum shopping folks when the court does the forum selecting for you, I guess. Maybe this is what the kids call Persal forum shopping. and Judge O'Connor is now America's personal forum shopper. You can get one of these at Nordstrom. Or maybe folks, it's just egregious judicial overreach and it puts the plaintiffs here in an even more difficult situation. It's really a toss up. Because everything is bigger in Texas, the president went ahead and endorsed Ken Paxton in the Republican Senate primary over the current Senator from Texas, John Cornan. This is after Cornan prostrated himself in front of Trump by abandoning his long defense of the filibuster to urge the Senate own nuclear and pass the anti voter save act. So wait, wait I'm trying to understand this We don't feel bad for John Corn and Dewey Oh, no, not at all. And like I mean, impeached people are gonna like other impeached people, right? So I mean, it makes perfect sense. Game recognizesaves. R. Yeah Yeah. Have you guys heard some of the kind of calls for impeachy keen Sort of Corn and Cassidy kind of cauucus with the Democrats for the duration of their time in the Senate . go John Cornan is not going to do that He was actually like way back before he was even on the Texas Supremeourt he was like the Texas AG, he like occasionally had a spine and would like do things that would defy like Republican partarty orrthodoxy. I wonder if in this like twilight of a Senate service, he finds that again. I am just not going to rule it out, but again I have made this mistake before. There she goes, listeners. Yeah. You knew she was in there. ladies So one more piece of news before we turn to opinions, a district court has issued an injunction in a case That's really wonky, but very sort of near and dear to my heart because it's about the Presidential Records Act. So the administration is taking the insane position that the Presidential Records Act is option becausecause Article two, like literally this very modest requirement that you, White House officials, hang on to the records of your time in the people's house doing the people's business to inform history. L that's what the Presidential Records Act does. It's another post Watergate innovation to kind of promote a little bit of transparency and accountability in the presidency. But of course, because it's supposed to do all those things, this administration says that's intolerable, it's unconstitutional We don't have to abide by it. A district court again issued an injunction barring this White House policy that basically, I think says, like don't have to comply with the Presidential Records Act I think is that the injunction doesn't cover the president, the vice president, the attorney general you know, it does bind every staff member, I think in the White House. So the problem is like if the three of them, AG and the president and vice president, like, their insane theory authorizes a shredding party. I'm not sure This injunction bars that. So that could be happening as we speak Can these guys figure out how to use a shredder? The idea that that might be our hope is? Don't put that in the shredder Right. So now for some quick recaps of the opinions, the court issued the Supreme Court. So in happay News, the Supreme Court dismissed as improidently granted the writ in Ham vers. Smith. That means the Supremeourt isn't going to decide the case and the Ct of Aeals decision that had affirmed a trial court's decision that the defendant in the case is likely intellectually disabled and therefore cannot be constitutionally executed, that decision will stand Justice Thomas filed a dissent suggesting that the court's decision in Atkins, that's a decision holding that people with intellectual disabilities cannot be executed. He said that decision had created an incentive for people to convince courts that they are not intelligent enough to be executed. which I think is just another way of saying it allowed them slash created incentive for them to raise the constitutional claim. The court had just recognized in Atkins the horror. So he calls on the court to overule Atkins. As usual, he includes a graphic description of the defendant's crime and suggests that Atkins is actually bad for defendants because it requires them to suggest they aren't very smart in order to avoid execution. It's just an appalling opinion. It's much better That affirmative action means that people getting into college same logic. veryer smart. Same logic So Justice Alito filed what seems to be the principal main dissent, and it was intriguingly joined by Justice Thomas, Justice Gorsuch. and the chief Jice. So this means that the five justice majority who dismissed as improvidently granted the writ in this case, leaving in place a decision barring Alabama from executing Mr. Smith included the three Democratic appointees, together with Justice Barrett and Justice Kavanaugh The Alito Dsent lays out a roadmap for lower courts to deny Atkins claims, presenting it as a clarification of case law. I think it's weird that This is yet another dig. There've been so many digs over the last couple of terms, certainly since they got the six to three conservative supermajority, which may suggest that having Five people, six people that you know will say yes to something means maybe you're not as choosy as you should be about selecting cases J you, just gonna put that out there. this is not the first dig we've seen. like there have been others in the last couple of years. Anyway. And it iss conspicuous they're taking so few cases inight. I mean, look, sometimes it's great. I'm really happy not to have them get their hands on some of these substantive questions. So it's a relief that they take the off ramp. but it is curious that they're taking these cases at all if they're not gonna to resolve. Well, it just seems like maybe they're so zealous to take certain things and then when They recognize like maybe this is not a good vehicle for this. They have to pull back in any event The court also decided Havana Docks Corporation versus Royal Caribbean Cruises, which addresses who's able to sue and which defendants they are able to sue. when their property is confiscated by the Huban government. So this property confiscation took place after Castro took over the government. And this is all kind of curious timing for the announcement of this decision because as you know The government has indicted Raul Castro, Fidel Castro's brother and his successor to the government in Cuba. Here, the plaintiff had a lease on certain docks. The Cuban government seized the docks before the lease was set to expire. The lease was going to expire in two thousand four Some commercial cruise lines used the docks to transport passengers, but after the lease expired The Supreme Court held that the plaintiff here, the docking company that helped develop and run the docks, could sue the cruise lines that had used the property that the Cuban government had confiscated. Scotis said that the docks themselves were the relevant property, as opposed to the plaintiff docking company's leasehold or the property interest in the docks This expands the scope of liability. That is who can sue and for what? Justice Thomas wrote for the eight Justice Majority, Justice Kagan, dissented Justice Sotomayor wrote separately with Justice Kavanaugh, and they were just fighting a couple of weeks ago, to note a few issues that the court had not yet resolved, such as the amount of any damages and whether the plaintiff could sue anyone who used the docs and recover damages from all of them Finally, for last week, the court issued M and K emmployee Solutions versus trrustees of IAM National Pension. This is a case about how to calculate what an employer has to pay when they decide to no longer participate in certain pension plans Employers have to pay a portion of the unfunded invested benefits that existed on a measurement date, the last day of the plan year before the employer withdrew. The question here was how to calculate that amount, which depes a little bit on actuarial predictions, including the plan's future assets and liabilities. So Scota said that the actuarial predictions didn't have to be applied based on information and assumptions that existed on the measurement date rather than updating them based on subsequent information Kie J wrote the unanimous opinion for the court. Before we bring you our conversation with the greatreat Dorothy Roberts, let's quickly take through some favorite things So I had missed the fact that Demi Lvato released a album and I really like frequency off of it and a little bit. notot sure about the rest of it, but those were good songs. Um, so paperback. Edition of my book is coming out june sixteenth.. And so I am running another giveaway where if you preorder the paperback, you can enter to win some merchandise that I made, including the lawless t shirt that I am wearing and other similar products. but I also made new ones. For the new chapter on the unitary executive, there's not a new chapter, a new section. There's the ice out t shirt. and the I prefer my ice crushed one together with other items. So check that out and you can preorder for my favorite local Iie. Liter audi bookstore and you can get a personalized signed copy if you do that before June ninth So get on that. Those are both great t shirts. My extremely stylish fourteen year old stole. I like my ice crushed. It's kind of a crop top. It's very, very cute. I'm in the ice out one. I love. I was waiting for the new unitary executive t shirt that said the UTE, it chafes I don't know how that would work as a t shirt, but I think you know how it. I think you' right exactly. All right, maybe for yeah, the second r. Okay, well, that is exciting. So listeners get on that. I have just a couple of things. Brooklyn half Marathon last weekend was hot, but awesome. I met a couple of stricties there. I got no names because I was really in the zone, but it was awesome to say hi. and I hope you had a great race. And then the only other thing I'll mention is we're recording this on Thursday afternoon before the Memorial Day weeekend So Nico Bowie testified this morning, was like testifying just as we sat down to record on Thursday that is before the House Judiciary Committee on a hearing about, you know to sort of like Whax alarmed by the Republican majority about know rhetoric of court packing and what a dangerous threat to constitutional democracy, courtking threat Right. And so the testimony was great. And I also just think the fact that this the House Judiciary Committee is nervous enough about calls for court expansion that they are trying to call hearings to beat it back is a hopeful sign. So it's really important to keep talking about suupreme Court reform, court packing and other kinds of interventions. but the court is wildly out of control know, the idea of doing anything about it seems sort of impossible until we sort of work hard enough to make it feel more possible. So props to the folks kind of working to keep it on everyone's agenda I am very excited, and among my favorite things this week is the fact that my book, The Constitution, a compomprehensive and annotated Guide for the modern Reader, is still on the New York Times bestestsellers list. It came in at number eight this week, even though it's backwarddered everywhere. like my local bookstore told I' totally sold out I'm just going to say it. Some people did not think Jimmy Madison and I could do this. People were like, whoo's going to buy a cononstitution for twenty dollars, thirty dollars I was like, I don't know, but I think people are going to buy it. I think they are. And so Here we are. Wh was right, Melissa. I love when that happens happens all the time Um, Yes. so I'm really excited about that. And it is in no small part. due to the fact that Leah Litman continues to run the world's best giveaways. She did another giveaway for the Constitution. and all of you wrote in, and you're getting great merch Thank you, Leah, because I literally don't know how to do what you are doing with that little website. I don't even know It is't to what you are doing. I can just make these t shirts I mean, you did it. and Jimmy Madison and I are so grateful. I went to his grave at Mont Pillier to tell him about the list Kidding That's an allillusion to Emma Thompson at the Oscars Yes in the day. All right I am also reading Kin by Tayari Jones, which is absolutely amazing. If you haven't read it, she's fantastic. I enjoyed her first book, her debut, An American Marriage, but this one is just absolutely spectacular. I really, really loved it I also ran into some amazing strriicties in the wild. So shout out to Joycelyn, Carolyn, and the two lovely young lawyers that I met at LDF's equal Justice dinner. so great to meet you. I know you told me your names, but I am old and getting older and I just forgot, I'm sorry. but It was really you had great shoes too. I really appreciated your shoes. Wow Finally, it is graduation season, and I wanted to give a shout out to doctor Halper's class at the Trinity School, as well as the Trinity Schools cllass of twenty twenty six I was their commencement speaker last week and it was truly an honor. and I'm so excited for all of these wonderful young people to get out there and start doing that democracy thing. That sounds amazing All right, folks, that's our favorite things. Stay tuned for our next segment, which is also kind of a favorite thing. It is an amazing conversation that Kate and I had with Dorothy Roberts, Kate Brilliant, brilliant colleague and one of my favorite favorite people about her recent book the mixed marriage project. This episode of strict scrutiny is brought to you by Alloy Health. Let's be honest, aging can come with some unwelcome changes. 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It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding Listen to hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube. Here, you're free to slow down. free to splash into crystal clear springs. Feel Florida sunshine. and spend the day outside Here, you're free to explore trails full of history, on foot or riding horseback And watch for a bald eagle gliding overhead This is OCalla Marion County, Florida where wide open spaces, timeless landscapes, and the American spirit come naturally. So go ahead Find your freedom here at ocalamarian. com next guest is someone who has managed in her most recent project to do something that very few academics do She has written a book that is deeply substantive. rigorously researched, but also deeply, deeply personal We are not surprised that this author could pull off this trifecta because she is truly one of the greatest legal scholars of her generation, someone whose work I have admired and cited for years and years So listeners, we are thrilled to welcome to the podcast, Dorothy Roberts, who is the George A. Weiss University Professor of Law and Sociology at the University of Pennsylvania, with joint appointments in the Departments of Africana Studies and Sociology and the laaw School, where she is the inaugural, Raymond Pace and Sadie Tanner Masll Alexander, prorofessor of civil rightights. And yes, that means I'm lucky enough to call her a colleague She's also the founding director of the Penn prorogram on Race, science, and Society, and a recipient of a MacArthur Genius grrant to boot And Dorothy has written some of the most important legal scholarship on reproductive rights, the family and constitutional law When I read her book Killing the Black Body, Race, Reproduction and the Meing of Liberty in College, it completely changed the way I thought about reproductive rights and continues to inform how I think about reproductive rights and justice today. And two of her other books, Shattered Bonds, the Cor of Child Wlfare and Torn apart how the child welfare system destroys Black families and how abolition can build a safer world are the absolute foundation for the familyily regulation abolition movement But although she's written about Black women in the Black family, her most recent book, The Mixed Marriage Project, a memoir of loveove, Race, and familyamily is perhaps her most personal to date. And we are so delighted to have Dorothy Roberts here on strict scrutiny to discuss it. So Dorothy, after that very long gushing windup, welcome to the pod Thanks, Melissa. and I could say gushing things about you and Kate as well. And I'm so happy Kate to have you as a colleague and Melissa for us to be virtual colleagues and sometimes in person for decades now, right? So it's wonderful to be on your show. Thanks so much We're excited to dive right into this book, which I have to say is a real page turner and I imagine it was Kind of a page turner for you. So you start the book by talking about your childhood. You grew up in a very seegregated Chicago in the nineteen sixties, It was a time when relationships barely cross the color line. But the book talks about how different your home was. Your father was a white anthropologist and your mother was a black Jamaican immigrant who was not only his life partner, but in time became his professional partner, helping him in his work and his life's work or a series of interviews with mixed race couples trying to sort of probe what it was like to live in an interracial couple as he himself was living as part of an interracial couple. And the scope of this research is absolutely stunning. He conducted nearly five hundred interviews with black and white couples in Chicago from nineteen thirty seven through the nineteen eighties And almost a decade after his death, you spent an entire summer Sifting through these interview transcripts and all of the related materials in that archive What did you discover? and how did a project that began as a deeply personal endeavor into your father's legacy result in a book that's really a memoir about you and your family Well, I discovered a lot of surprising things when I finally got around to reading all of my father and mother's interviews some personal and some historical. So the personal part, which was the most stunning was findinding out that he began interviewing bllack white couples in Chicago in the nineteen thirties I always thought until the moment I pulled out the first interview from these boxes my sister had sent me, that my father got interested in interracial marriage when he met my mother who was a student of his at Roosevelt College in Chicago And he met her in the nineteen fifties. And then he was working on this book, my entire childhood. So I imagined that he began writing the book in the nineteen sixties after He and my mother fell in love and were married. And so when I pulled out the first transcript from the boxes and the date on it was february nineteenth, nineteen thirty seven just completely floored me because That not only meant that he had started these interviews when he was only twenty one years old as a masters student at University of Chicago, you know a white kid basically who as far as I knew, didn't E know black people growing up But it also meant that He was interested in Black women and an interracial marriage relelatable before long before he met my mother. And so that flipped the whole story of the relationship between his marriage and my family and his research. So And then discovering that my mother was involved in the nineteen fifties, I had no idea this was always Daddy's book that he was working on I didn't know my mother had conducted half the interviews in the nineteen fifties. She interviewed all the women, while he interviewed all the men And so there were these personersal discoveries, really upheavals. But then there was also the stories in these interviews, the stories of couples in the nineteen thirties and the nineteen fifties or the nineteen sixties, you know, really his his research spanned a hundred years of marriages because some of the couples, in fact, twenty five of the couples he interviewed in the nineteen thirties were married Before the turn of the twentieth century in the late eighteen hundreds So he had interviews from the eighteen eighties to the nineteen eighties, and just that was stunning Now you ask how did I get from digging into a personal story and writing a memoir. It was really that I first thought Id have to do something with these interviews. You know, I am an author. I'd like to write about black history and family history and the law. so I had to write something about these hundreds of interviews What happened is as I read them and I start to reflect on my family's history. Relect on my parents' relationship on my own identity, it turned into a book me and my family. as well as the stories and how I can interweave these stories of the people my parents interviewed with my own Well, and it's incredibly powerfully done the sort of we learn a lot about the subjects of the interviews, but we also learn a great deal about your family, your dad, your mom. And I actually want to ask about. so you referenced Daddy's book, which loomed very large over your household and your childhood. And like his quest to turn this set of interviews, hundreds of interviews, spanning, as you said, a century of relationships into a book And you knew that he was never able to complete that project and publish the book. In fact, if I recall correctly, you initially were thinking, maybe I'm going to complete this book that he never did. And then it of course turned into the memoir you were just describing. But you learned a lot about the way he never finished the book, this contract signed advance return, a later contractual effort. There's just much more there than I think you had realized. And I have to say, this is pretty wrenching. It just felt especially poignant as a reader in light of the fact that you, his daughter, incredibly successful academic, you know, an author of multiple ld defining books are the one making these discoveries and telling this story. So can you talk a little bit about the publication struggles you found in these boxes? and then share if you can why you do think at the end of this process, he was never able to complete the book. Yes, that's right. I in a way wanted to finish the book he never completed, but expanded into my own personal reflections. and I discovered along with the interviews in these boxes that of his archive, his papers that my sister sent me, a whole folder stuffed with publication details of his efforts to publish the book And so one of them I remember very clearly because in nineteen sixty nine, he got a contract from Simon and Schuster, you know, this major New York City publishing house And he got an advance of two thousand dollars, which was pretty incredible at that time, especially for a professor of anthropology to get this kind of a contract. And it was the source of extreme jubilation in our house. It was the most exciting news we'd ever had growing up. And we jumped into our sky Blue rambler and drove to downtown Chicago from Hydpark Kenwood, and we had a big celebratory dinner at Kontie Ports at the Sheridan Hotel. You know this was really a major event. And then I discovered he had other contracts as well interest from other trade presses as well as academic presses Just looads of correspondence about this And then despite all this, he never submitted the manuscript It went through so many different iterations. att the end he interviewed hundreds of children of interracial marriages, and then he was going to write a book about that. And none of it ever happened And so part of the mystery that I explore in my memoir is why? And I think the main reason is that he just loved interviewing these couples. And you know, he not only interviewed them, he brought them into our lives His best friends, including S.t Clair Drake, who's a major figure in anthropology and African stududies was married to a white woman and they were both constant figures at our home. along with other friends of my parents, my piano teacher, the plumber, know just about every character who came through our house was involved in a mixed marriage or mixed race relationship. And he really built a community In fact, in the book, I wonder if he materially significantly increased the numbers of interracial marriages in Chicago because he introduced people to each other, did and was really building a network of interracial couples in the city And I think he enjoyed doing that and they didn't want to end doing that It wasn't that he lost interest because he continued throughout his career into the nineteen eighties conducting these interviews but he just couldn't get it down on paper. and you know, who knows why some people have writer's block and others don't. but he he had difficulty getting past the amount of research he did and also he got stuck in writing an introduction on the history which ended up taking up all his time. And I have letters from the editor saying, stop writing the history and get to the interviews. but he just couldn't do it It's such a relatable issue as a writer and an academic, like just to get bogged down in something and the immediate response is just do more research when in fact, like sometimes you have to put down the pen and just try and commit something to paper. But you one of the things that stood out for me here was that his wrenching process was also really wrenching for your mother because she was an actual partner in this. She was helping, not just helping as a help meate, she was literally on the page with him. She was an anthropologist doing these interviews. She wasn't as invested in this book as he was and it never comes about. But what does come through as you go through this archive is that She is an academic force in her own right. She's a very talented interviewer. What did you learn about her as an anthropologist as you were going through all of this Yes, Thankks for bringing her up, Melissa, because she also plays a critical role obviously in my upbringing, in my identity, and in my memoir. And she never became a professor because she gave up her PhD work at Northwestern University in the nineteen fifties when I was born in nineteen fifty six. And then my sisters who were twins were born a year and three months later. So she had three little kids to take care of And she invested a lot in this project of my fathererss not only interviewing helping to find the mixed race couples and recruit them to the study, half of the interviews in the nineteen fifties, a big chunk of them were hers. and I discovered her talent for interviewing and her notes were just delightful writes about the settings, about the personalities. She writes about the children, which was something my father didn't really do other than describing their physical features, you know And whether they looked more black or white or in between, my mother described their interactions with the mothers She was interviewing and they read like screenplays. They're really fun to read. and I discovered my mother's talent for writing in reading her interview notes and also understood why she was so frustrated with my father Is she constantly haranged him about finishing this book. And you know, I can rememember hearing her in her British accent, she was from Jamaica, but she was she was taught in Wiler School for Girls which emphasized you the proper pronunciation and intonation. And she would constantly say, Bob, finish the book finish Forook know all the time. And now I understand why I used to think she was mean because she was always bothering him about this. And now I see she invested her PhD, you know, gave that up for him. She raised his children. She worked on the book with him. and She invested so much and he and he never wrote it. She probably would have finished the book herself if she had the opportunity. So I really came to admire even more than I already did my mother's contribution to my father's project, that what I saw as his project, and what she sacrificed to raise me and my sisters. I think Jamaicans might say she was very vexed with him over again for finishing the book. Very, very vexed. The Jamaicans will relate because my mother was more ambitious than my father and she just sacrificed her opportunity to succeed in academia in order to marry him and raise us. And one lesson she taught me and my sisters over and over again was Don't get married until you get your PhD and establish yourself academically. And in fact, don't Date until you do that was really H That very Jamaican. Don't Stay away, stay away from m and boys altogether. Yeah Can I just read a sentence or two, Dorothy from early on when you're talking about your mother and she comes across so beautifully and there's a sentence when you're talking about, she's this incredible student in Jamaica and she traveled to Liberia as a young woman. And you suggest that that journey kind of embodied the contradictions of her personality. So you write, quote, She was a woman who defied easy explanation Regal and proper, yet down to earth and fun loving, respectable, yet rebellious, conservative, yet unorthodox. She insisted on strict iqute and decorum yet broke every rule that sought to confine how a black woman of her era should live her life I love that description and she comes across so beautifully and I love that you not only describe her kind of witty and captivating kind of writerly voice, but also we get a lot of excerpts from the things that she wrote. and you really they are vivid. They really do bring these scenes to life So I want to ask a different question actually though, which is that you describe your surprise in learning. So the relationships are the first focus right between spouses, these interracial couples, but then also there's a shift to children in your parents' research. And you describe your surprise in learning that you yourself are research participant number two hundred twenty four In the files. So can you talk a little bit and reflect on that discovery? Sure So after I spent the summer reading the interviews, that my parents conducted interracial couples I through the interviews of children, hundreds of children that my father conducted during the nineteen he started in the sixties to the eighties and I didn't have a chance to read them all the way I did the interviews of the couples, but I kind of flipped through them. And so I was surprised to find a folder on me. As you said, number two twenty four, and when I opened it up, it contained an essay I had written in college for a sociology course, actually a paper, It was a full blown paper I wrote for a course on ethnicity in my first year in college. and a letter my father wrote to me as an adult. and then an essay I wrote, which I think he must have asked me to write, to for you know, just for his edification of my own identity and how I felt about interracial marriage. And I believe I also wrote that the summer I finished my first year in college Of course, this was shocking to me that in a way was treating me as a research participant. and that added to this perplexing relationship between his research and my family, you, discovering that he had started the research project before he started our family. And now I'm part of that as well And it also got me though, to think more about my relationship to him and about the significance of having a white father as a black woman I've For a long time since I was very little, identified solely as black and in fact in college, and I write to him about this, which is very painful I hid the fact that he was white deliberately. I not only didn't correct people when they assumed that my father was black But once in that same ethnicity class when we had a small group discussion and we were supposed to identify each other's ethnic background And everybody identified me as black except one white man in the class, a student who said, I think she has some European round and the instructor turned to me and said, Dorothy is that true? And I I froze. My stomach clansed. I can still feel that feeling of my stomach clenching thinking rapidly, am I going to reveal that my father's white? And I answered, I have a white grandmother, but I never met her Which was true I do have a white grandmother, my father's mother, and I never met her in part because My father wouldn't marry my mother until she died because he was afraid she'd be so upset. So I deliberately hid The fact that my father was white And I write about this in this essay that I wrote to him and I felt so ad about it, it was so mean and disparaging of our relationship, which was very, very close And so part of This memoir is my reconciling, you know, in my old age now, this fact that I have a white father but identify as black. I don't identify I don't identify as biracial even. I really leave out part of my identity when I define myself I had to figure out, but I don't want to deny my father He was extremely important to me. We loved each other dearly and He's also probablyb one of the main reasons why I have devoted my career to studying and opposing racism, especially racism against black women and comes largely from my father's mission throughout my childhood to end the racial caste system, as he called it in Chicago. Now we disagreed about how to do it. He thought the way to do it was to increase interracial marriages. and I debated him on that underlying mission connects your work and your life you know, that you're Research should be toward j and to create a better world. The underlying message he and my mother taught me that there is only one human race and our highest mission should be to uphold our common humanity. You know those lessons were essential. I realized even more working on this memoir to the black woman I am today, to the activist I am today to someone who connects and thinks it's ssential to connect my scholarship to my activism, to be connected to a community, to a movement. All of that I learned from my father. It's such an interesting question for someone to raise in class, like do you have European ancestry? I mean, anyone who's sort of looking at black people in the US would say like they all have European ancestry for one reason or another So that part, I mean, the insistence on monoraciality in a world where we know that that isn't true is kind of stunning But ye what also is striking is You know, I've followed your career for years. In many ways. I think I've tried to model my own career after yours. like you're such an amazing example of how to do work that really matters to you and is personal, but to do it in a way that is rigorous. and meticulous and defies what I think some in the academy would think about scholars of color who write about questions of color and race. To find that the root of that is actually your white father is really interesting and surprising. And I wonder sort of you know, what do you make? of the academies derision of quote unquote research, you know of academics who are deeply, deeply and personally connected to what they write about. And this sense that to be truly rigorous, you must be abstract and theoretical about what you write about. And here was your father and your mother deeply immersed in a world in excavating academically, a world that they inhabited and occupied Yeah I don't know that you have to go to the extreme my parents did of actually living out their research and you know incorporating it so deeply into their family lives But I absolutely resist this idea that we have to disconnect our research from our personal lives or from our personal commitments I don't think I could have written any of my books, especially Killing the Black Body and Torrn apart without being connected to movements with killing the Black Body, the repeproductive Justice movement, which was emerging as I was writing the book. And with torn apart, the movement led primarily by black mothers whose children have been taken from them to end the family policing system And my ility, my inspiration, my knowledge about these topics, my motivation U All of that comes from my engagement and Camaraderie and collective work with people in movements that share my values and share my aims for what I want my work to be able to do. I mean my highest goal for my books is not so much to advance academic work, but to advance the work of activists. and that's the greatest gratification I have is that books have been seen as useful to people who are working on the ground to change transform the oppressive systems that I'm writing about. So I really disagree with this idea that We have to be abstract and theoretical and immune from politics. You know, it's absurd. even science, which is biological sciences, for example, that are supposed to be absolutely hermetically sealed from politics have from the very beginning been influenced by politics and influenced politics. whether we're talking about the life sciences or the social sciences It's absurd to say, it's a historical to say they're separate from politics. And we're seeing that today more than ever, where it's explicit It's in executive orders. tellelling what the political overlay that your te your scientificsearch must be. Absolutely. So to me, if you're going to do research, it should be aimed at makingaking the world better at aim towards social justice. And I don't see any problem with saying that explicitly and making your work be either entangled with or at least deeply influenced by movements that are working toward justice and equality and our common humanity I really want to just desbotle that and send it to every young scholar thinking about like how to make their way. And you're not going to be Dorothy Roberts when you start off and maybe ever, but like that I think is as good a sort of set of guiding principles as you could articulate. And every recruiting committee Correct Thank you, thank you. I want to ask a sort of a lighter question, which is yes, I love the cover. the beautiful, like I think it's a wedding day, right P photo of of your parents. I'm hold it up right now for those listening. There are a lot of photos throughout the book, but this, you know, kind of beautiful cover image, I'm just curious how of the you know materials that you looked at and considered how you decided on this one for the Yes Well I've always loved that photo. It's one of my Favorite photos of my poing is my favorite photo of my parents I've got lots of family photos, I love too with the three of us, the kids, you know there as well. But my parents together, it's the one that really shows their deep love for each other, I think. best and as Authors know you go through different suggestions from the artists, the designers at the press for a book cover And the original suggestions were a number of different photos of my family. And there was one cover that left out that photo. And I wrote back, You've left out my favorite photo of my parents. And then the designers got the idea, hmm, well, that's her favorite photo. Maybe we should just focus on that one. So then they sent me different versions of multiple photos on the cover and that photo on the cover. And I said definitely, I think just the one photo that is the best, that's the most reflective of my parents' love is the one to use. So that's how we came up with it. Yeah, you can really see it Dorothy, I guess to wrap up, it's hard not to think about your work in this book. without linking it to the current political eitgeist, where it feels like so much of the progress that has been made is really under attack. and your work is very bald about the attacks on that progress. With that in mind, what is giving you hope in this moment. What do you hold fast to and what keeps you going in feels like a pretty grim time frame Yeah, what keeps me going? and gives me hope and inspiration are a couple things. One is going back to what I was saying about being engaged in movements that are working toward a more just society. My experience with the two movements I've been most involved with reproductive justice and the movement to abolish familyamily policing is that which are led by and predominantly made up of black women. We tend to celebrate even little victories. You know, we'll celebrate the dessents We'll celebrate the tiny victories at a, you know, at the local level, even if federal policy is going drastically backward and horrifically backward The celebrations of victories remind you that we can win. In the end, we have to just be constant and committed and keep working at it U So that's one. the other is my students I am so blessed to teach courses where I get the public interest students who are dedicated to various Social justice fields of law They're going to be public defenders, they're going to be family defenders. they're going to work for public interest organizations And or if not, you know, some do go to big firms too, but they're doing the work on the side or they're doing a lot of public interest work And because I, you know, I teach repeproductive rights in justice. I'm going to get the students who are interested in that And so I have over the years had these amazing students who are so dedicated and so committed and creative and They give me hope that There is another generation coming along that's going to continue to do the work for a more equal and just and caring society All right Well, that's a wonderful place to leave it. The book once again is the mixed Marriage Project, a memoir of love, race, and family. The author is the incomparable Dorothy Roberts. The book is available now. Pick up your copy wherever you get your books bookshop d. org or anywhere else. It's a beautiful story of love and family and discovery. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dorothy Oh, thank you too. I enjoy the conversation. I really appreciate it. Take good care That was such a good conversation. I had so much fun talking to Dorothy. She's fantastic We do have some housekeeping and guess what