Modern Day Christiania and Future

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Whether you're just getting started, figuring out your next move, or looking to accelerate your career, LinkedIn is built to support you at every stage. becausecause LinkedIn is the network that works for you. Visit linkedIn d. com slash no stuff to learn more Welcome to Stuff You should Know, a production of IHart Radio. Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. and we're going on over to foggy Copenhagen town Yeah, for this episode of stuff you should know. That's right because we are talking about a little sort of village neighborhood anarchist commune In Copenhagen, Denmark called Freetown Christiania which was founded in nineteen seventy one, and it has a pretty interesting story. He continues to You had me anarchist squatteratter. commune. Yeah So it is. I think there's something like eight hundred, nine hundred residents there depending on who you ask. and They just basically showed up. They set up shop in this former military base and they said, we're not leaving. This is a free free territory. And in fact, when you walk into Christiania I just want to say Christiana so bad. I know me too. That extra I just throws me off, but it doesn't matter because I'm foreign to this. I'm foreign to the people of Denmark So I will say, I will just deal with it, right? That's right. At any rate, when you walk into Christiania, there's a sign that says you are now leaving the European Union. Pretty cool. So the backstory here is in the seventeenth century, that's the sixteen hundreds, by the way And Copenhagen, they built a big fortress and some ramparts there to you know as protection obviously, because that's what ramparts are And in the eighteen thirties, they built an artillery barracks there. They grew over the course of the nineteenth century, but then in the nineteen hundreds Denmark was like You know what? No one's gonna come after us. We're Denmark. Everyone pretty much likes us. so we don't need this kind of presence here And so in nineteen sixteen, the southern part of the base was closed and actually like converted by the country into a park then in nineteen sixty one, parts of the ramparts on the northern end were're transferred to the public And then about six years later between ' sixty seven and ' seventy one They finally, the military got out of it altogether and there was a completely abandoned military base there by nineteen seventy one So I mean, and it's pretty decent size Part of it's a park, so it's alluring It's in the middle of essentially downtown Copenhagen Um, so it's kind of like attractive to people. You know, it's not out in the middle of nowhere. It's like right there. let's do something with it. And there is a neighborhood right next to it called Christian Christian's Harven Christian's haaven If you anglicize it And they apparently, the parents there kept tearing down the security fences to allow their children to go in and play in this abandoned military barracks You know, I actually looked up the V in Denmark and how you treated that thing. Did I butcher it? Is that how I? Well, I don't know because bet I bet you're probably right, but U The interternet said was that the V, and I'm sure someone can write in and let us know that the V is pronounced like a V when it's in the front of a word but is treated as a W when it's in the middle or rear of a word Okay, so let me try this again Christian Tan. Maybe that's how they pronounce it. I don't know. I' actually I'm genuinely curious because that's always thrown me Chris Joonnes Howin, that's what I'm going with. All right, that's what I'm going with too Okay, well anyway, it's a neighborhood and they tore down the fence and apparently the local authorities, I think the military at first and then the government building the fence. They're like, this is to keep you out. stop tearing it down And the parents in the neighborhood said neverever, and they kept tearing it down. And finally the government just gave up and left it to them to let their children play. Yeah. so it became a kid's playground. In October of nineteen seventy one, there's a guy named Uh Jacob,, here's another be. I'm going to say Lugwigsen Sir the internet is correct. and he is the or was then the editor of a actually it turns out it's the most popular kind of counterculture rag in Denmark called the u Holdold blloodered It means a new leaf Oh I saw it the main paper Oh, the main leaf, that's what I saw. Okay I new leave too because you can turn those over and good things happen That's what I thought So he was the editor of that thing. He needed some, you know, some content to put in there one week. And so he and some of his buddies went and did, you know, kind of a fun little Hey, we're going to take over this old barracks And so they did an article. they took pictures of them like having picnics and having fun and waving around air rifles U and, you know, you have to remember this is just after the military had left it. so it's very much like an anti war sort of little fun piece they were doing. And in the article, he said civilians have taken over The forbidden city, except he said it in the language there And he also in this the article that he wrote to accompany it, he said, Hey, there's a bunch of different things we could do with this old military base There's a housing crisis right now. The prices of apartments and rents and all that are really, really high. So young people are getting forced out of the city or can't move to the city. Let's turn this into affordable housing And he said, and by affordable housing, I mean just free. comeome build your house here. Let's turn this into an anarchist compound. And they I think the local colorful community answered the call pretty much immediately. Yeah, I mean, you put out a call for anarchist commune free rent and Do doesnn't matter where you are in the world, you're going to get some people knock out on your door pretty quickly with their Patrully in their hacky sex They were all in certainly in Denmark as far as the name Christiania, there's a bunch of stories. that could have been named after the king who commissioned the barracks or maybe a twist on that neighborhood that You talked about the Christian showing Or maybe Oslo pre nineteen twenty five. So no one can quite pinpoint exactly why it was named Christiania, but that is what it was so dubbed Right And that's what it's still dubbed today because it is probably the most successful anarchist squat in history. Yeah, for sure It's been around for seventy years or no, fifty years. Hey, buddy. I was born in seventy one. Sorry U yeah, it's been around as long as Chuck And Chuck's been around. so it's pretty impressive. Yeah, it's fifty five years old, let's just say it Uh, like you said, it was I don't know if you said it, but they had a pretty good start there because You know, it was just abandoned by the military in nineteen seventy one. so it's not like it was falling apart or anything like that.ight. It wasn't like fancy, but the buildings were all pretty great and they had electricity and running water and As they got going, it wasn't It wasn't like, hey, let's get together and be a community. It was just like You can come here and do whatever you want. but one thing I love about people. is when you get enough people together for a period of time, They don't like too much chaos and they all tend to come together I feel like it. Mbe it doesn't always work out. but initially I feel like they all seem to come together and say like, hey, let's get like organized a little bit Yeah, it's very Hobbsian. Yeah U And the point of that is that these this group that started out as an anarchist commune or not even a commune, I guess just a bunch of anarchist squatters. formed an anarchist commune. and like you said, they came together They started making rules because even anarchists love rules. Sure The first rule was no violence, which is a pretty good first rule and that was the only rule for quite quite a long time actually And the way that these anarchist squatters who lived in Christiania Enforce the rules was through like social pressure exclusion, shunning U they they police themselves, right? So if you if you did commit violence, you would be forced out of this this neighborhood one way or another And that was essentially one of the first things they came together to do was to T to self police And then the second thing they came together to do was to take care of the trash. Yeah because there are two things that people do in any situation, especially when there are no rules Fight And they'll generate garbage and just leave it places. Yeah. So they said, hey, you know, that was literally like the first thing they did is they formed a team, a garbage team to deal with the waste businesses started to open up a little bit and it didn't take long within a few years kind of like by the mid seventies was it's, you know, own little society in there. They had communal bass that they built They had cafes, they had shop collectives They they had a kindergarten They had a theater, a few theaters, I think, but the largest is the Greay Hall, which is still there today. I think I looked up the capacity. It looks like it seats about fifteen hundred people. Oh wow. And they've had some Bob Dylan played there, Metallica and Rage Against Machine both played there. U So did no effffects Morry prodigy? Did Morrisy show up though Probably not. Yeah. He was scheduled. Yeah And I saw Steve Igignorant from Crass played there too Who's that? I don't know that Cress the punk Bang Cress. never Yes, you have. I have never him before of them. And I know you listen to everything I say All right, so Christiana was obviously, I think they had their motto at first was Black Sheep from all classes unite. And they attracted a lot of artists obviously early on. and still The place is kind of teeming with art if you You can just look up pictures or you can go on YouTube and there are quite a few YouTube videos of people just doing like a little walking tour of Freetown Christiania And it's it's awesome. It looks like You know, there's murals everywhere. They started hosting plays and musicals at the Grey Hall over the years and It's just sort of a lovely place if you're into You know, any kind of visual or musical art Yeah, I think I said there were about eight hundred to nine hundred residents. I saw about one hundred and fifty of those are kids And there are children who are raised. Like you said, they've established kindergartens there Um, And there's a guy named Lucas Forschhamer He's the lead singer of a group, a band called Lucas Graham and they sing in English. I think they're bigish From what I saw it's kind of pop country almost He was born and raised in Christiania, and I was reading a Rlling Stone article with him and it was really interesting because he seems very mellow and nice and open. But one of his quotes was that he learned how to mix a Molotov cocktail before he learned how to mix a longong Island iced tea Wow. whichich is interesting because they generally, I mean, we'll talk about when things got a little violent, but they're a peaceful people They are, but they also, you know, the cops show up whenever they want and this is like a group of anarchist squatters and they don' really like police presences and yeah. so it's there's this real undercurrent under this whole story because the There's it's a generally positive story, but you also can't forget we're talking about anarchists squatting in the middle of a modern city and being pressured from outside and pushing back on that pressure in ways that You know, and can't forget. Yeah, for sure. So I think we sort of teased a bit of a dark side and why don't we take a break and we'll talk about another type of person who moved to Christiania right after this It can be a little weird. One minute you're in a meeting that could have been an email, the next you're trying to decode corporate jargon that somehow means nothing, and don't even get us started on the quick sink that turns into a forty five minute deep dive. Yeah, well, the truth is figuring out your career isn't always straightforward. whether you're trying to grow, pivot, or just stay relevant, it can feel like you're navigating it on your own Well, that's where LinkedIn comes in. That's right. LinkedIn can help you grow your career, helping you confidently navigate your path with insights, ideas, and inspiration from your professional community. You can stay up to date with the latest trends in your field, connect with people who get it, and discover opportunities tailored to your goals, your experience, and what actually matters to you. 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See it in five films at mazdausA dot com slash five sides. Google is a trademark of Google LLC, sequences shortened and simulated All right, so we mentioned that lots of like cool free spirited artists moved to Christiania and put on plays and musicals and painted walls and did all kinds of fun stuff, open shops and cafes. But also That became the what was known as the Green lightight District, where even though marijuana was illegal in Denmark , they would sell drugs there, mainly pot and it was called Pushher Street. They sold The street where they sold the drugs was ended up being called Pusher Street It was generally, like I said, selling weed and hash, not the biggest deal Uh, but anytime you have that kind of thing You know, somebody will come in wanting heroin or acid or, you know, whatever, you name a drug. And harder drugs did kind of come in And it got pretty out of hand and they had a lot of problems with the cops and eventually gangs over the years Yeah, they did because I mean, marijuana is not recreational marijuana was not and I think still is not legal in Denmark. So this is like Fagrant open selling of hash in particular And because this is a black market people who are willing to kind of step up and You know offer those services or those products are criminal elements. So those gangs in particular the How are we gonna to say this, the BS Motorcycle Club I mean, everyone knows what that is. We don't cuss on this show, but that's sure. That was one of their names And then the world famous Hell's Angels. I think you mean the HG double hockey sticks Angel. That's right. Thank you. They those two gangs ended up trying to take over Pusher Street And there was actually a gang war From nineteen eighty three to nineteen eighty six between those two gangs and a lot of it played out on Pusher Street Like you said, the people who live there are pretty much peace loving. They're self governing their justust generally Mllow people Yeah. and all of a sudden there's motorcycle gangs at a war in the middle of your town. And I saw there was an article by I think a guy in Vanity Fair of all places about this And he said, if you want to imagine Pusher street Imagine a quaint little small town with a strip mall going right through the middle down main street with forty liquor stores on it. Yeah. That's essentially what he said this is like. So this just basically developed. And remember, these people didn't like plan Pusher street. It just started to happen And then it got out of hand, certainly out of their hands because they're anarchists. and they can't call the cops because they don't believe in that kind of stuff. They can't stick the government on these people. They don't believe in that kind of stuff. So they had to do whatever they could to kind of try to keep this element out as much as possible and they really had a hard time with it for decades. Yeah. I mean, one of the other rules that they eventually brought in was that you can't wear gang colors I think by two thousand four supposedly or reportedly Up to twenty five percent of Christiania was reliant on the drug economy And that same Vanity Fair article said that Pusher Street had the biggest hash market on the planet And said it basically had forty different stalls selling forty different brands of hasiche And the cops in twenty sixteen estimated that the drug trade on Fisher Street was worth aboutbout one hundred million American dollars a year or one billion Kroner So it was that way for decades and decades There was violence There was at least one killing. I think the cops in nineteen eighty seven found a dismembered body under the floor of one of the gang's hangouts And there was just a lot of push and pull over the years with the police trying to rid that scene from there and certainly the people You know, like most of the people on the inside wanting it gone. Yeah, I mean, um There were like there were I think the the hell's Angels eventually overpowered the BS motorcycle Cub to the point where they folded because they kept carrying out broad daylight hits on the BS Motorcycle Club's leaders and one of those took place at Christiania as recently as In twenty twenty three there was a fatal stabbing, fatal shootings in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two Um there was a shooting that injured three people, one of whom was a cop So you can imagine like if there's certain liberal vanguards of Danish society there let them live, let them stay. This is an exper a social experiment cops in Copenhagen and are just I get the impression pull their hair out over the idea that this is just allowed to continue, especially when cops start getting shot and other people get murdered in broad daylight in this place. Yeah, for sure. I mean, they had in nineteen ninety two, like an eighteen month campaign to get all the drugs out of there. That didn't work. at one point they were patrolling twenty four seven U there is in two thousand four they had built The cops had built a push or street replica at their training facility So they could literally train for like exactly how to handle that area And there was a song even that the Fourth District pololice Department wrote a song about the dealers that had the line clear out Christiania takeake the S down. they will never N smoke a joint again That's what happens when cops write songs by the way. Right, I know. They also in twenty twenty two alone, they raided Pusher Street One hundred times. Yeah And they kept bouncing back. It kept bouncing back U I saw that Even though they didn't call the police, this was somebody who was explaining it on Quora. I'm not quite sure what their Um their bona fides are Yeah. So take this with a grain of salt, but they seem to not be quite sensationalist. They said that at one point the residents of Christiania essentially bated a police raid is how they put it. They I'm not quite sure, but they did something that they knew would attract the police. They knew it was coming. and so they warned everybody who lived in Christiania about it, and they didn't warn any of the dealers on Pusher Street to basically use the cops to get these guys out of Pusher Street. So that's, I guess one tactic you could possibly use if you're not willing to call the cops But they they also themselves would go disassemble these stalls. they would as a group stand up to the Hell's Angels in the BS Motorcycle Club. And and push them out, but even if the cops were doing it, if the residents of Christiania were doing it, it did not matter for decades, they would come back and they would sell hash and make money and essentially intimidate the people who live there That's right. Uh and they even said ever mind. That was a terri joke I'm notm going gonna say it. But in twenty twenty four Uh, they finally, finally, this was just a couple of years ago dug up Pusher Street. They literally dug up and got rid of that street altogether and got everyone out of there and they I think Coben Hagen announced plans to build some public housing on where Pusher Street used to be. So you know, there's like local crafts and stuff being sold on Pusher Street now U It remains to be seen if the drug trade is going to come back, but hopefully that did the trick and it's out of there And one of the other things I saw are actually two other things that Christiania residents did over the years to u drugs out as best they could. The first one I think came in the late seventies when heroin started to make a real appearance and they were like, you know what? We don't want heroin here. We don't want hard drus. You want to drink, you want to smoke hash, you want to smoke pot. Whatever, That's fine. But we as a group are going to say, we don't want heroin here So they essentially forced out the heroin dealers and they said, you, heroin addicts, if you want to stay, stay But you have to quit heroin, you have to go into treatment Yeah and get this They said we're going to test your urine randomly. to make sure that you're staying clean. and if you're not, we're going to force you out And I was like I looked into how they did and apppparently there was a resident who could detect heroin in urine s just one tiny sip At any rate, they really did drug test people. That was the first time they did it. The second time they appealed to the public and they said, help save Christiania, buy your hasash somewhere else So they werere actually actively trying to keep people from buying hash in Christiania, which apparently is supposedly not actually cool to do, but it's such a tourist spot and tourists just go buy hasash whenever they can out in broad daylight Um that it' it was just thriving for decades. Yeah. I mean, I think they said they get in the like peak vacation summertime They get like as many as ten thousand people touristing that area every day. For sure. So it's a very busy area, but it seems like they've eradicated the drugs at least for now So their relationship with the government over the years is that's sort of been up and down, and we'll talk about all that right after this It can be a little weird. One minute you're in a meeting that could have been an email, the next you're trying to decode corporate jargon that somehow means nothing. and don't even get us started on the quick sink that turns into a forty five minute deep dive. Yeah. well the truth is figuring out your career isn't always straightforward. whether you're trying to grow pivot or just stay relevant, it can feel like you're navigating it all on your own. Well, that's where LinkedIn comes in That's right, LinkedIn can help you grow your career, helping you confidently navigate your path with insights, ideas, and inspiration from your professional community. You can stay up to date with the latest trends in your field, connect with people who get it, and discover opportunities tailored to your goals, your experience, and what actually matters to you. 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That's half off at simimpllysafe dot com slash stuff. There's no safe like Simplyafe. So Chuck, you were saying that the government has had a Love hate Or lient not so lenient relationship with Christiania over the years, right? That's right Well, I mean, you know, they came in and took over a military base. They were building fences and they were getting torn down and sort of like, yeah, you can have a playground U And then, okay, you can live there and you know, I think as it started to build, there was just some raised eyebrows But they weren't causing a lot of trouble. so they let them go. And by nineteen seventy two, the government's official stance was like, all right, this is a social experiment. let's see how it goes. Right So you think, oh that's great. they're going to leave us alone. Nope. The next year the government was saying like, we're not sure about the social experiment thing. Everybody needs to leave by april first, nineteen seventy six And the people of Christiania did not take that sitting down They sued the Danish government, they protested The courts rule against Christiania over and over again, but the Bite you know, legally being able to go in and clear everybody out, The Danish government just would never go that far. They threatened to, they came up with plans, they came up with compromises, but they never went so far as to just go in and remove everybody Yeah, I mean, they've they've threatened eviction and like had official eviction decrees And then revoked, but Like you said, they I think it would be a It was so well known by that point it would be a really bad look for the government to go in and, you know, rip fam like literal families out of there that were basically doing pretty good. I mean, from what I saw, the only kind of downside was hash trade that went on there for so long and that was just in one localized area Yeah, and that seems to be how the government and the police in particular really kept the The heat on the residents of Christiania, That likeike you said, that seem to be the only real problem with it. I've seen If you remove that whole drug trade, the crime in Christiani is very, very low um So regardless, because nobody could get a handle on the drug trade in nineteen eighty nine, the government actually passed what they called the Christiania Act. It said, you guys can stay, but you're going to have to work with us a little more. pub owners are going to have to start getting liquor licenses U we're going to need to certify your kindergarten teachers, stuff like that, right? Like there had to be some sort of governmental intervention. Their kids have to actually go to government schools outside of Crysiania, there was just more involvement that the government insisted on. Yeah, a couple years before that in nineteen eighty seven They said, all right, the new plan is You can stay here, but we're going to divide up this area and the neighborhood is going to be rezoned into two areas. The military ramparts where a lot of your homes are is going to be a conservation zone. And you're going to have to move out eventually. And then the second area is what we're going to call the urban zone. And you can basically stay there And then in a couple of years, they announced all the plans just to make things a little more official. Right And it's sa that way for A couple decades and then in two thousand one, the government's like Just forget that. forget it again. We're gonna to evict you guys. So finally in twenty eleven, the government in Denmark said, all right, you guys can keep doing your thing But you got to buy this land Like we gott to get something out of it. And that was a tough nut to crack for the residents there because first of all, like, They didn't have that kind of doough and second of all That was like not what they were all about. likeike individual property ownership wasn't their jam And so a lot of them were turned off by the whole idea of kind of owning that But then I think they saw the writing on the wall, which is like, well, this is what allow us to stay at least.. So they raised the money. They didn't you know go out and buy individual parcels of land. They set up a foundation that would cover all of the land that they needed and they they raised the dough. They raised twelve and a half million Kroner And that was enough to buy about a quarter of that land and then pay rent for the rest of it Yeah, get this. they also took out bank loans, which can't you see them like showing up their hair kind of partarted and styled as best as they can, but they're still wearing like their leather vest with the anarchy symbol painted on the back. No't. I mean, that's the movie version. Yeah So u The way that they got around that private ownership thing was they pooled everything together and they bought it collectively So Chrsiania itself. owns the land that these people live on, the people pay rent to the community. They also pay essentially an HOA fee of something like one hundred and seventy six Troner, I think, are dollars worth a month , thirteen hundred and fifty Krooner. Well see, that's the trade offff is the rent is about four dollars sixty seven cents a month, American. R. But the maintenance fees are one hundred and ninety six cents a month. So they're basically saying like Hey, you can live here for almost nothing, but it still costs money to run this place and you're all going to pitch in for that. Exactly, right So that's actually a pretty good workar. If you're an anarchist and you need to make a deal with the capitalist devil, that's about the best you can hope for So the government was like, well, that's your land now. Okaykay, we can't do anything. But that's about a quarter of the land. There's still a bunch of land left. And if you don't buy this, we're going to build public housing. That seems to be the threat ironically. Yeah the government now uses over Christiania is we're going to build housing that is open to the public and you're not going to have any say about who moves in Because over the years In another great stroke of irony. peopleeople of Christiania have gotten extremely selective of who moves in Yeah, I mean, you have to do an interview now to move in. It used to be like they would just accept anybody. But you know, they got more organized. I think there are fourteen different neighborhood groups there now and, uh, you know, there's a lot of I think it just got a little more complicated as time went on. L there has to be consensus for changing even very minor things like changing out the windows of a building I think the New York Times did an article on it that said it was like an out of control condo association. And like I said, you have to go through an interview process just to live there now. So I think sort of the idyllic days come and gone, but From what I've read about just contemporary articles now, It seems to still be kind of a great thing for people who live there. Yeah, for sure. like There's a sewer system. Like we said, garbage collection' been there a long time. They have recycling centers U they have the Grey Hall, there's cafes, beast shows. there's just a lot. there's like a it's a city. It's like a little city that was self built and also self governed They also chuck have their own u currency The loon LOO with a slash through it Y midle O , which means the wage It's apparently equal to about fifty Danish Kroner. And it's a minted coin. made of copper