Human Constructs and Final Thoughts

This is an IiHart podcast Guaranteed human. And I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything It's the ragebait. It feels like it's trying to divide people If we got clear facts, maybe we could calm down a little NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there NBC News, repeporting for America What's up y'all Summer's got a different tempo Everything's a little looser, brighter. One plan turns into another. You hear something, you stay a little longer. Next thing you know, you're somewhere you didn't plan to be. It's those in between moments. That's where the ideas hit. Conversations stretch out, littleittle memories sneak up on you. sometimes it's just about what's in your hand, that color Chill, the new tropical butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Guava and Passion frruit flavors with mango pineapple flavored peearls Yeah, that feels like summer before you even taste it. Funny out one small stop becomes the best part of the day Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new tropical butterfly Refresher from Starbucks Eczema is unpredictable. But you can flare less with EGLS. A once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four month or longer dosing phase, about four incent people taking EpGLS achieved itch relief and glare or almost glare skin at sixteen weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. EBlS Libap LBKZ a two hundred fifty milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children twelve years of age and older who weigh at least eighty eight pounds or forty kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called a topic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGlS can be used with or without topical corticoosteroids.on't use if you're allergic to EBGlIS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe, eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems, you should notceive a live vaccine when treat with ecLlS Before starting Eliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection Ask your doctor about EBglS, and visitBglSot Lillily d. com or call one in hundred Lillily R X or one in hundred five four five five nine seven nine Josh coming back at you hot with our twenty eighteen joint on Ocham's Razor, one of the more semi understood scientific principles. But it's also probably the most widely used of them all too or misused, I guess, I should say We have a medieval monk who became one of the early protocientists to thank for Ocham's Razor which makes him a hero to science here's our episode on that hero. you should know Fr from Hast stuffworks. com Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant and there's guest producer Tristan over there So it's stuff you should know. I don't know how these are gonna to release, but as you've noticed, Tistan weirdly grew out his mustache It the last hour again. If Quick He is very fast He can make it go in and out, in and outoooooop What is that It's in like he's growing his mustache and it's sucking it back in. C it out sucking it back in. No know like a reverse play Doo Do you remember that Pl Doo set with like the little meat grinder No, there was one where like you could grow a mustache on I, dude. I correctly. I think I remember that. But imagine if you could reverse it too. It was called the Plato Nightmare set Is? Is that your nightmare growing a plo mustouache Waking up like that? Yeah. I've had that dream about once a week for about thirty five years. Like all the rest of you is Chuck, but just your mustache is Wallace and Gromet Dude yesterday I u There was a bad smell Dimill in and hour having a glass wine at a wine bar There was a bad smell nearby. I think it was a dumpster or something And they were growing fresh herbs at this wine bar and I rubbed a Rosemary bush. And then I wiped it all over my mustache. u and Emily's mind was blown She was just like, oh my Godd. Like I can't believe like That's an actual use for facial hair Yeah, I guess to hold in that smell I was like, well, you can wipe on your upper lip. it's probably the same thing Sure. Maybe the hair retains more essential oils. I don't know. Maybe. whichich essential oils, man. People are clamoring for that episode Yeah, we should do that We will eventually. It's been a big part of my life for twelve years now Essential oils, we'll talk about it someday, but not today no. because Chuck's gonna stumble through a philosophy podcast. It's ye, I guess it is philosophy. It's the philosophy of knowledge. Epistemology is another way to put it spepecifically Chuck We're talking today about a little ditty you may have heard of before called Occam's Razor. called the Gambler. Heavy h Have you ever you've heard of Accam's Razor before, right? Well, so much so that I thought for sure we had covered this, but u I realize that we just talked about it quite a bit in the scientific method I'm not at all surprised because a lot of people say that the basis of science, which is how humans approach Um nature in our universe and us and everything scientifically The basasis of that is Occam's Razor And if Ocram's Rasor sounds familiar, but you can't quite place it, you've probably heard it as something like Given two possible outcomes or explanations, or whatever, the simplest version is probably the right one Yeah, it's a pretty Even that in its simplicity is beautiful The mere statement itself is an example its simplicity and how wonderful it can be just to think like Yeah, you know what G through all the gobbles you cook I think the easiest way to explain this, whether it's They uh, a uh a What do you call the orb in a photo? ? Yeah, it's not your great grandfather coming to visit you on a different plane It's really just an error with your photograph or it's a it's the flash Yeah reflecting off a water vapor in the air orr Kennedy probably acted alone Kennedy He shot himself From afar. I clearly meant to say Oswald actct it alone because that is the simplest explanation, not this. very convoluted u deep Um plot that goes a hundred people were involved in to assassinate Kennedy So we'll talk about all that because that's a teaser What you're doing right now is has become pretty standard. You're using Occam's Razor to disprove other people's point. Yeah There's this is a total and complete misuse. of Occam's Razors, not the original intention. The original intention had nothing to do with saying that's wrong It is just a heuristic device, a guide, a rule of thumb. tells you Because things tend to be more simple in the universe if you If you're doing something, don't make it harder than it has to be. Don't add more to it than is needed to get the job done Right. And there's actually a couple of ways to put this and both of them get attributed to William of Ocham who we'll talk about in a second. Yeah, Billy Ocham. But one is call he sounds like a baseball manager. Yeah But one is called the principle of Plurality. Yeah.'s harder to say fast than you would think. It is. And that is Translated from the Latin plurality should not be posited without necessity The other is the principle of parsimony, which is it is pointless to do with more what is done with less. From what I understand, they are one and the same Oh really could not find anyone who could explain the difference. and I see them interchangeably. notot just like on some dude's blog, but unli You know the internet Encyclopedia phhilosophy or the Stanford Encyclopedia phhilosophy, like they don't seem to be different H Well, parsimony, it seems different to me because that specifically is like not using resources, not spending money if you don't have to. And that seems different than plurality Okay, well then let's explore it. So plurality, adding to something, doubling something maybe, just making it more than just a singular He's saying plurality should not be positive without necessity, right? So I guess what he's saying then if they are different then if you are if you're guessing at something if you're trying to explain something. Don't make it harder than it is. Don't make it bigger than is absolutely necessary to explain it. Yeah, that makes sense O and this is a really big point that we'll see in a minute, William of Ocham really was saying Don't. Don't add on to something beyond what you know to be true and correct, which a lot of people over time and I think he actually maybe explicitly was an empiricist have said William of Ocham was an empiricist. He was saying that you need to experience things through your senses to know that they are true Yes, empirical evidence If I can look at it or smell it or taste it or feel it What's the fifth one Uh tickle it. ickle it, and then the six one, of course, we know, means Bruce Willis is really dead. See the ghost of Uh Yes. if there is no empirical evidence, if you cannot experience it with one of your senses, then Um, it's poo pooed. So so it is. So and those two things like you really the especially modern science, especially science these days, you put them together. It's given two things, go with the simpler explanation and You don don't believe anything that you can't sense one way or another through your senses empirically, right? You put those together, you have the basis for modern science And so the idea that that things that are simpler are better or the idea that the universe is simpler, like when you start to think about it, it's all over the place, right? Like the idea that the universe is based on simimpler being better is found everywhere, right? So like there's Th things have fewer parts thingsings that require less energy The encapsulation of larger ideas into smaller amounts of words or theories or whatever. All these things are very much prized by humanity. So it just kind of makes sense that Occam's Razor is a sensible thing And that you could actually use it to uncover the mysteries of the universe. Yeah But again, that's not really necessarily the case to tell you the truth. No, I mean, there's there's going to be a lot of U and this stuff is kind of fun. justust a lot of back and forth on Occam's Razor throughout this whole thing because there is no answer. and that's kind of part of the whole Jam of Ocham's Rzor Be there is no right or wrong here. Right, you know What's weird is right? A lot of people point to it though that it's this is right. I just proved you wrong. I razer. and that's just not true. All right, should we take a break early I think we should take a break now because I need to get my head wrapped around this We'll come back get the way back machine and visit Billy Oakham Okay as unpredictable But you can flare less with EBGlS, a once monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four month or longer dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EBGLS achieved itch relate and glare are almost glare skin at sixteen weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more cleare at one year, with monthly dosing. EBGlS Lap LBK a two hundred fifty milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children twelve years of age and older who weigh at least eighty eight pounds or forty kilograms with moderate to severe ecema. Also called a topic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGlIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBGLS. allergic reactions can occur that can severe eye problems ocur. your doctor you have worsting eye problems, you should not receive live vaccine when treated with elS. Before starting eGlS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection Ask your doctor about EbBlS and visit EblSot Lillily dot com or call one eight hundred Lillily RX or one eight hundred five four five five nine seven nine. Hey everybody, I'm Bobby Bones. Today we're talking about Thomas Rhedt and the soundtrack to Life Tour. For over a decade, Thomas Rhett has delivered more than twenty number one hits and sold out tours. Inspired by his family and his Nashville roots, he's created songs that have become the soundtrack to our lives From Die a Happy Man to L Changes. You've heard his songs playing at life special moments. Now it's time to hear them live. Round up your friends to catch Thomas Rhett on the soundtrack to Life Tour. Get your tickets now at live nation. com Why is it always chaos when we link up? Because nobody plants anything, bro. Good thing the roue's ready like that. For real, rain, dirt, whatever. Available all wheel drive, five modes we still outside. And they got some kick too. That turbo? Torque is crazy. The most in its class, it moves, moves. Rogue doesn't mess around and peep the space Merch on merch, gear, mics, all the fits. Load up, We out. twenty twenty six Nissan Rogue, built for all of it. Auto Pacific segmentation, twenty twenty six roogue versus latest in market competitors in the XSUV mainstream midsightize class, excluding electrical vehicles based on manufactured websites So now Billy Occham sounds like a nineteen eighties recording star Oh sure Billy ocean. Yeah. get off of my razor and get into my car. What was this thing? So the we should say the razor too, it's a philosophical term. It's a term of philosophy.s the razor used to away unnecessary stuff comes rightraight sir. So let's go back and meet Billy Ocam Sown Yeah, and you wrote this by the way B in your article writing days. And you point out very astutely that this is from a time in our history of the world where You might not have had a surname. You may have been William of Ocham. which is the case here, which is in England.. And he lived between about twelve, eighty five and thirteen forty nine And he was a philosophical dude and a Franciscan monk And he very much, like you point out, took his vow of poverty very seriously and lived a very meager a humble life. Yeah, he did. He also expected the church to take the same vow of pity, and he actually butted heads with the church quite a bit so much so that he ended up getting excommunicated, as we'll see But he was the real deal as far as like a true believer went weird thing about William of Oakham was that he was also a genuinely independent thinker and a rationalist which at the time, rationalism And the church did not go hand in hand They were there was really not much rationalism. So for an idea the idea for this this upstart Franciscan monk to start questioning the ideas of the church and not only that, but how the leadeaders of the church conducted themselves and how much money they surrounded themselves with and how much power they had politically. this is it was a big deal. Yeah, and he is not he did not invent this line of thought. as much as he's probably attributed to this to people that just know him from like a Jeopardy board. He this is already a line of thought, well established by this time in the medieval times. and he was just He kind of boiled it down to those two sentences that you were're talking about. So anyone could understand it He could put it on a bumper sticker and a t shirt and sell it. Right. So it was Aristotle who was the guy who came up with this idea first that simplicity equals perfection and perfection equals simplicity. He said, the more perfect a nature is, the fewer means it requires for its operation.. I love that. So that makes sense. That speaks to me But then over time in between Aristotle and William, it kind of got expanded. So let me give you an example of that same thought from Robert Gross Test, who was an early scientist, also a theologian, I believe too Here is his version of it That is better and more valuable, which requires fewer other circumstances being equal For if one thing were demonstrated from many and another thing from fewer equally known premises, clearly that is better, which is from fewer, because it makes us know quickly justust as a universal demonstration is better than particular because it produces knowledge from fewer premises Similarly, in natural science, in moral science and in metaphysics, the best is that which needs no premises and that better that which needs the fewer other circumstances being Boy the ironies there are rich Right. So within less than a hundred years, William of Ackham comes along and he's just like, plurality should not be positive without necessity. Robert. Yeah. And Robert was like, well, yeah, I guess that's one way you could say it So so I want to say something though Before we keep going, Chuck, I actually found a correction of my own article. O that I missed before What's that It turns out that they think now that another theologian slash scientist from William of Ocham's era. named John Dunn Scottas was the one who really encapsulated this principle of plurality and principle of parsimony. and that it was a guy from the nineteenth century, William Rowan Hamilton, a British mathematician, that he was the one who misattributed it to William of Ocham So is William ofvacham just a No nothing? No. No, his writings definitely included this stuff and he never took credit for this. Okay. But they think that that it was actually John's Dun Scottas whocaps who encapsulated it the way that we tend to think of it now. So he the bumper stickers. But right, But William ofvacam thought this way and he was a radical thinker and a rationalist as we'll see. Right. And like you kind of teased out earlier, he did butt heads with the church over this He wrote a lot about it And the church was not into it. And Pope John, the what is that twenty second Um they kind of squared off on this And of course, the pope wins all battles Uh at least back then and he was excommunicated in several of his his monk brothers in I take that to mean Real Bothers, right were excommunicated in thirteen twenty eight. He went to Munich seeking refuge. He was protected there by Emperor Louis the F Mhm. and, uh, Ultimately, he won out because He started writing papers about Pope John the twenty second saying he's a heretic peopleeople ultimately believed them. He definitely made some pretty convincing points. And he also again, like if you're saying I took a vow of poverty, the church really should too And the church isn't poverty stricken and you are, that gives you a little more credibility from the outset as well.ure So there's some reasons why William of Ocham is This theologian, a devout Franciscan monk, is looked upon as one of the fathers of Western science, like the foundation of Western science, right? orr science in general And the reason why is he argued against the prevailing ideas at the time, which is called medieval synthesis And this is very much championed by Thomas Aquinas, who' a famous theologian. I believe he was a saint. And one of the reasons he was canonized was because of this thinking about this, but the whole medieval synthesis thing was that God was first and foremost everything Right? were you were a member of the church just as much as you were a member of your country, a citizen of your country.. All human knowledge came from God. And Thomas Aquinas it wasn't just like the end. Thomas Aquinas used philosophy to prove that sentiment that all human knowledge came from God, and here is how And basically it took the idea of cause and effect and said that you can trace every effect back to a cause, back to another effect, back to another cause, but ultimately you're going to end up on God And that all of our conceptions of everything arose from God's conception and that God willed that we understand things this way, which means that this is the perfect way to understand it, whichich means it's right, right So that is not what William Rockholam thought. He was, again, a rationalist. who said no, we tend to think things are things because that is that arises in the human mind from cognition, not from God. And this dude was not a heretic. He believed that you didn't apply rationalism to God, that God required faith. And rationalism stood on its own. It was a different thing. and you couldn't know God through your senses. God was elsewhere, Leave God out of this And the fact that he was able to really successfully lay like a philosophical groundwork for this a rational groundwork for it. It's one thing today to be like I'm a secular humanist You know, I I'm rational Forget the church That's today. This is at a time when guy is saying this and the church has the power to burn you at the stake. Like he was he was a stand up rational thinker, right? Which kind of makes him a hero of rationality today. But And this is another perfect example of how Ocham's Razor gets confused. Ocham himself gets confused too. He's a hero of science, but he was also one of the more devout human beings walking the earth at the time and was a monk for basically his whole life. And also had a metal band called Medieval synthesis Oh, that is a good name, isn't it? So he was just a conundrum Yeah, he was a conundrum for sure. And again, he got excommunicated. He had to escape by horse Stolen horse. Oh I mean, he was not very monk like No, but All right, so we were talking earlier about empirical evidence and how that kind of fits in here and the fact that if you can't You know you know the sky' blue because you look up and you see it's blue. you know a A bird makes a whistle because you can hear the bird make a whistle So u It's very easy to sort of use that Um and say, sure, but if you don't, if you can't see it or hear it empirically or any of the senses experience it It's very easy to poopoo and you give a great example here. U with Laorence and Einstein. And kind of which one would wentin out. So Both of these guys, both physicists, Einstein obviously more popular. we'll see for a very important reason. They both had the conclusion mathematically that With the spaceet timee continuum, the closer we get to moving at the speed of light, the more we slow down, which is hard to wrap your head around So Lorencez comes out and says, explains it away because of changes that take place in the ether, which he might as well have said, a bit of magic happens Einstein didn't And so the one we talk about today is Einstein and not Lorentz. That explanation of Einstein was more rooted in science And he didn't say something wacky like the ether, which is something empirically you can't see or smell or taste. Right. So Einstein, you know, he won. that great battle Yeah, he very famously said he goes, I don't know what's what, but I know it ain't got nothing to do with no ether. And one day my brain's going to end up in a jar in some guy's garage in New Jersey. Right And everybody will love that picture of me with my tongue sticking out. And Walter Matat will play me in romantic comedy. So Laurent violated that principle of plurality, right? Yeah added something to this that required An additional basically like a leap of faith. There was no empirical evidence that there was such a thing as the Eether. And he said, didid I say Eether? And I didn mean Eether and never went, No, no, no. It's too late Lauret. We heard you, buddy And hes still, I mean, he's a respected he's a respected physicist It's like he was some crackpot or anything like that. Because if you put his equations and Einstein's equations side by side, they came to the same conclusions. It was just explaining how Loreurentz seems to have missstepped He was obviously at least as brilliant as Einstein when it comes to that. He's just a little nuts apparently. So So he violates the principle of plurality and now we understand relativity rather than Lorentza's manic ravings. Yeah, and I don't believe we mentioned there is a word for that if you can't prove it empirically, it doesn't exist. It's called positivism. Yes. posositivism isn't about having a good attitude. Right. And so this is and this also happened during Einstein's working days too. There was a guy named Ernest Mck And Ernest Mark was so Earnst Ernst Mark, thank you. Yeah, no he that's way better than Ernest. Or just oneoney. Yeahah Ernst Mach. He was so nuts on empiricism. He was a he was a early I think he was a physicist, if not a mathematician, one of the two And he basically said Like Molecules don't exist. All this whole bob of overver molecules and atoms and all this stuff you're all crazy. We can't see them They don't exist So there's there's this kind of ironic twist that came from Einstein's working career where he actually Lorenz, his rival to this theory. through this through Occam's Razor, but he also Proved this idea of that Ernst Mck, this thing about only believing what you can sense with your sens is this kind of other part of Occham's Razor in a subsequent paper that came a few years later that showed that molecules do exist. So the idea that Ocham's Razor can be used B both ways is something that just keeps coming up again and again and again And we'll talk about how after a break. How about that? Yeah, let's do it ima as unpredictable. you can flare less with elyS, a once monthly treatment for moderate severe eczema After in an initial four month or longer dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EplLS achieved itch relief and glare are almost glare skin at sixteen weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more cleare at one year, with monthly dosing.plLSap LBKZ a two hundred fifty milligram per two milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children twelve years of age and older who weigh at least eighty eight pounds or forty kilograms with moderate to severeczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you're allergic to EBGlS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBGlS. Before starting EBGlS, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection Ask your doctor about EBglS and visit Evglbot Lillily dot com or call onein hundred Lillily RX or one eight hundred five four five five nine seven nine. Hey everybody, I'm Bobby Bones. Today we're talking about Thomas Rhett and the soundtrack to lifeife Tour. For over a decade, Thomas Rhett has delivered more than twenty number one hits and sold out tours. Inspired by his family and his Nashville roots, he's created songs that have become the soundtrack to our lives fromrom Die a Happy Man to lifeife Changes. You've heard his songs playing at life' special moments. Now it's time to hear them live. Round up your friends to catch Thomas Rhett on the soundtrack to Life Tour Get your tickets now at liive nation. com. Bro from the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill? Beause this is our live. backstage on the road. It's loud, messy, real. And that's the best part. whole crew, no plan, just moving. Good thing Nissan builds for that kind of chaos. Not just test tracks, real life scenes, late nights, road trips, all of it That's why it holds up. Nissan was rriankged number one in initial quality among mainstream brands by JD Power. Yeah, you can tell! twenty twenty six Nissan Rogue built for what really happens. For JDPower twenty twenty five US initialQualality stududy award information, visit JDpower dot com slash awards. Awards based on twenty twenty five model year, newer models may be shown Okay Chuck So who who uses Occam's Razor? obbviously? Um, everyone who was throwing money down on the cockfight between Laorentz and Einstein were using Occam's Razor they all went with Einstein's because this was the simplest, right? Yeah Who else uses it? Well, I mean, you have a great section in this article about skeptics U And I know over the years of the show over the past ten years, we've had a lot of Um minor scraps skeptic community? That's a pretty minor. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Because I mean, we have our skeptical side for sure, but they're You know, when it comes to skepticism and skeptics, there's a it's it's sort of on a On a sliding scale, there's a range of how you might feel about certain things And you very astutely, I think, point out that if you are a true skeptic. then you will not use Occam's Razor like I did earlier as a tool, to disprove something that you will only use it as a tool to consider different explanations. And thats there's a big difference there There is. So like like that whole idea of seeing a ghost on film, right? There there's There's this example where somebody could say So you just explained something about light and refracting and something with the film. and There was moisture in the air What isn't it just simpler to say no that was a ghost? Exactly. And in that case,, if you were a skeptic, you would you would you pull a little tuft of your hair out Maybe just start scraping at your cheeks until you bleed idedally what you would say is I get what you're saying, but you're bringing something into this that we don't know exists. like we do know light exists. We do know it tracks off of vapor. We do know how this can be captured on film. So yes, that sounds very complicated. but the Ghosts don't exist as far as we know. We can't sense them empirically. but I would keep my mind open to the idea that ghosts could conceumably exist. The fact that I just showed that this is the reflection of light off of water vapor in this graveyard does not mean that your hypothesis about ghosts existing is wrong. It just means that's what's in this picture Right. That's a true skeptic. Right because because things happen and they and later on the more fantastical explanation could be true and has been true And you point out very very plainly here that there's a couple of problems with this. And to me, this kind of says it all is that it's subjective Like the whole notion of determining is This is the most simple explanation is completely subjective because the ghost explanation, one person might say, no, the ghost explanation is clearly the simplest because I can just say one word, ghost See there. Uh, and then you could fire right back Well, no, I can fire back two words Um phhotographic mishap Right Or maybe just mishap. Yeah. if they want to like keep it completely equal. And that's the most simple. So it's completely subjective as to which one or anything that's the most simple Right, exactly. And then again, the idea that you can use Ocam's Razor to disprove something just by showing that that it's not the simplest explanation That doesnt that's not correct. That's not right. And so scientists will use Occam's Razor in all sorts of different disciplines. likeike for example, if you're making an artificial neural network, right? like a learning machine, you might use decision trees and you will use some sort of simple decision tree over a more complicated one that can get the same job done That doesn't mean that it's necessarily the right one, but there are demonstrably good reasons for picking a simpler one over it. It's less likely to break. It takes less time. It takes less energy to come into the computations. There are things that are valuable about it, but it doesn't mean that the other one is just wrong And again, when you're using Occam's Razor, say if you're making a neural network or you're pouring through a datas set or something like that, or you're trying to interpret a big data set. Yeah. you're you're making again, like you're saying notot just a subjective judgment about what's simpler, but That's all there is to it. You're making a subjective judgment about what's simpler, not what's right It's not saying what's right. And this is a recurring theme that you just have to know because there's so many people out there that use Occam's Razor to disprove other people's as and that's just not at all what it was originally intended for. It's just a complete perversion of it. and it's just wrong and that's not how science works. So if you see somebody out there doing this, thump them in the forehead. Yeah. and boy, then when you get into theology, it gets really interesting because this is sort of a prime example of The simplest explanation from a believer's point of view is very easy to say, no, the Big Bang is incredibly complex and complicated And it's pretty clear that the easiest explanation here and the simplest thing is God created life in seven days But that's also discounting the process that it took God to create earth, if that's what you believe and just kind of bundle it up in a tidy package.'s God created life. The Big Bang is super complicated So and very coincidental if you really look at it. So this is the simplest explanation. Ocam's Razor proves that God exists. Right. And so that's been used time and time again by by creationists, right Or people who believe in ghosts or people who counter empiricism in a lot of ways, right? Yeah. But on the other hand, you can find atheists who use Occham's Razor to show that God does not exist. R. Because their point is if the universe tends towards simplicity and God is perfect and simplicity is perfection, then if God existed, the universe would be a lot more simpler. There wouldn't be this big bang thing that we have to happen you would be right creationists in the fact that you're wrong me means that there is no God, which is just like my heads starting to spin a little bit with this. But it's a good example of how you can use Ocham's Razor. Both sides can use Occham's Razor to disprove the other person's point, which again shows how it's not meant to be used that way Well yeah, and then you point out too and talk about a head spinner, like something like photosynthesis is a pretty complex mechanism in nature Um, I mean, who's to say that that isn't the simplest way to achieve food production in a plant. Maybe that is the simplest. Yeah, we have no way of knowing that there is a simpler model of the universe or photosynthesis or of a shark or anything like that. and that even something that does seem superfluous We can't say that in the larger scheme of things that it's actually the simplest way to do that. Right. So like like a shark seems like, man, maybe do you need that extra fin or something like that orr does a cow really need eight stomachs or do we really need two kidneys? Right. But what this what this point is saying is that there's We don't have the information to look at everything on such a grand scheme of things to say, no, if if humans only had one kidney, this other larger system would break down and this is actually the simplest way to do it. Right? O there's a cow with one stomach that we can compare it to Right, exactly. So this whole thing, this is the point Chuck where I reach veryer glaring idea that comes Razor Or what Aristotle said that simplicity is perfection That's all man made. That's human made. sureure. That's a human made concept. To value simplicity is human made. It is possible the universe is complicated. You can come up with all sorts of examples of the universe being seemingly pretty complicated. Just the universe itself seems pretty complicated, frankly, right So That doesn't necessarily mean that the universe tends towards simplicity It seems like humans value simplicity. and the universe uses simplicity a lot, but that doesn't mean that simplicity is perfection or correctness. That's a human construct. Well, yeah, but and like let's say in terms of engineering, It's probably a decent model to think, hey, the more compleomx the system is that I'm engineering the more things there are to break So we should probably try and make it as simple as possible that still gets the job done. But that's not to say that They can be rudimentary like you might need it might need to be a little bit complicated to run at its most efficient, you know? Yeah, exactly. Or art. I mean, that's a whole different can of worms You know, that's entirely subjective. likeike is you might find one drummer that says Um less is more