Final Tracks and Artistic Legacy

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Hey, whats your pin Two, five, three, eight That way, you know you're in the right car taking the right trip, and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app. My mayor's Muslim, My bagel's Jewish. My jazz is B Bop. Olivia Rodrigueo's got a brand new album we're gonna break down on Switch on pop. Wha Welcome to Sitch Pop. I'musicologist Nateloan. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding Charlie Olivia Rodrigo is back with her third studio album. It's called You Se Pretty Sad for a Girl in loveove It's a good title. It's produced by Dan Nigro, who worked on all of her previous albums with her And many of the songs were written with him and Amy Allen. Otherwise, this is a really intimate affair And it sounds like a deeply personal album It's got these moody soundscapes supporting hyper detailed lyrics with soul wrenching specificity It's also a meditation on desire and maybe more intriguingly A meditation on what happens when desire is fulfilled. Meditation with a bottle of wine, you mean? Yes, I don't know if that's approved, you know Zen behavior, but don't think so. The beats were probably into it This album is also an extended homage to a certain band whose name rhymes with demure Yes. And finally it finds Olivia honing an approach to songwriting that I think she's been developing over her entire career And I am finally ready to identify and name today, Charles. What's that Whoa, whoa, whoa, sa it, save it. I'm not gonna to give it to you. This is a meditation on desire unfulfilled, Charlie. I'm not just gonna give it to you right out of the gate. I'm gonna make you wait for it. You're gonna make me feel how this album is trying to make me feel? All right. Exactly, exactly. And now are you ready to get sad? We kick this album off with a track that we've actually already broken down on the pod. It is Drop deead It's so good. I know that Bar closes at eleven fin Suspended animation We're waiting for the love to happen. A couple important things in this track that set the tone for the whole album Again, this word I'm going to keep coming back to. desire, wanting to be with someone so badly that you feel like you might drop Dad and an important reference to the band that haunts this album The cure. I know I here We have a shout out to their song justust like Heaven. The woman makes me scream she s. And this song also introduced us to a concept that we identified as the reverse, or maybe the Volta verse. a second verse that doesn't return to the music of the first verse, but actually introduces something entirely new ot that chewing gum just flirting away. We speculated that this Volta reverse might stem from Olivia Rodrigo's musical theater background.. It's also maybe a larger trend in some of the artists of the moment, such as Roan But what we didn't know at the time, Charlie, was that this single drop dead was actually going to be part of a larger treatise on love and desire. When Olivia teased the album on Instagram a few weeks ago, she actually divided it up into two parts Girl in Love is actually gonna to be the heading for the first seven songs on the album. And then you seem pretty sad is going be the heading for the last six songs on the album Okay So there's kind of a diatic structure here that reverses the chronology of the album title The first half of this album is going be about being in love and the second half is going to be about being sad to some degree Diatic. You know I love it when you use those professorial words Biparttheite, perhaps is an alternative So Drop Dead is not only the first single, it's not only the first track on the album It not only gives us the vultaverse and our references to the cure also kind of announces like, okay, this album, at least in its first seven songs is really going to be all about feeling love, feeling desire, feeling like wanting someone. And I think there's something we miss that I want to name now, which is the way that Olivia builds these songs so that they intensify those feelings It's something I propose we call the spiraling song You mean like emotionally spiraling Well, yes, because a lot of these songs do a lot of emotional spiraling Also there's a literal spiral or a music theoretical spiral happening. Unspool this for me. When we get to the chorus of Drop dead It's going to circle around and around and get closer and closer to the center until it finally ends with the pronouncement of the title of the song at the very end of the chorus. Okay, it's going start to spiral a little faster As we get towards the center of the vortex. Building, building, building. until we fall through the center Right at the moment when we get the title of the track, the central ideea. The chorus builds, builds, it increases in intensity and momentum and then finally plunges into the central idea of the song. It's so satisfying the spiral song The image I keep having in my head is very specific, and I'm curious if you can relate to it You go to like a Children's Museum I mean, this is something we do a lot. So may maybe you'll be more familiar They have these B circular games where you drop a coin at one end and then it rolls around and spirals into the center the most basic arcade game ever invented, but it is mesmerizing I don't know if that thing has a name, buts how that's what I picture when I'm listening to some of these songs. The coin just getting faster and faster until it falls through the middle So a lot of these techniques we hear on Drop deead. the expression of desesire the spiraling structure It's continued in the next track, which is called Stupid Songs meelting in the sun with read. A you sure it is coming on that I feel like I feel feel totally insane I want you more than any stupid song could ever say. Why is she belittling the power of a song? becausecause a song can never actually replace the power of a real emotion, right? It can sort of like limit and describe it, but it's asymptotic. It gets close to it, but it never quite captures it , it's also a quick fix. It's three minutes long and then it's gone. We have another spiraling chorus here. Oh I'm a heart made of wax and I'm melting in the sun, getting closer and closer. I'm a thread on your shirt that's coming and done. It's increasing. I feel right. I feel wrong. I feel totally insane. And I want you more than any stupid song could ever say. There's our title phrase. It builds up to the to the title. you're waiting for it, you're waiting for it and then finally you get it in this like moment of Cllyimax Perhaps it's worth you comparing this to the typical approach to a chorus does not make you wait for the payoff like this. It gives you the payoff right at the start of the chorus take a peer of Olivia Rodriguez that uses the same producer, Dan Nigro. Chapel Rone. Yeah. Her song, Pink Pony Club is like a paradigmatic chorus. It's the title of the song and it gets repeated over and over again Not to over generalize, but that's like the classic way to write a chorus Pink Pony Club, Pink Pony Club. Pink Pony Club. Pink Pony Club. Let's say it a lot. Let's get a suck in your head. Let's have you sing along That's not what Olivia Rodrigo does. It's more of this approach of delayed gratification. It makes me realize that all of her training in television and theater musical world, I think is also paying off, right In theatrical work, you need to have drama always moving you forward pulling you through. You can't all of a sudden arrive and be like, Uh, everything feels totally concluded. If you do, it has to be quickly upset so that act two can come next. That's right, Charlie, you have to ratchet up the tension and that's something she does really nicely in bridge of this track. id song. one before dream you from like one four positively and truly should I can't be good Tell your friends, J on on with the handan of my heart Oh I love that call in response att Oh Oh my gosh, it's really intense. It's a smart move too because I feel like there are a few moments on this track maybe throughout this album where it almost gets like a little too introspective or two sad or slow And then she'll always like throw in this little burst of energy that just like keeps you alert as a listener and locks you back in. She is really managing our expectations At the same time, this bridge is just deepening the message of The first part of this album, you know, Girl in loveove Nobody's wanted somebody more That is like such an Dlivia Rodrigo mantra, you know, like I can't even deal with how much I'm crazy about you It's a theme that gets picked up in another song from the first half of this album with a title that I'll try and decipher. It is the letter you. Plus sign me. equals H emoji you're one hundred percent sure that that's not a cure song Yes. Okaykay. I'm so glad we're on the same page here. because we've arrived at our second retty explicit Pure reference. It's certainly not a carbon copy which is something you know, Olivia has had to deal with before in the past, whether it's references to Paramore on her first album Sour or even Elvis Costello By no means am I saying she needs to add Robert Smith as a songwriter to this one? No But yeah, there's a resemblance to the opening of one of the Cure's big hits, Friday, I'm in loveove. Play back the Olivia. It's actually more subtle than I realize. It's just kind of in the universe of the cure, the chorusing on the guitar Really, they both have this way of playing simple rock chords instantaneously bring a tear to your eye. you're like, o, I'm getting in my feelings right away. J in that intro I feel pretty confident in saying that for me, the references to the cure and there are more coming, if fe'ar not ever make me feel like she's trying to you know, use our love and familiarity with this band to like advance our own agenda. It really feels like She's just genuinely been in her feelings listening to the cure. and went into these songwriting sessions and was like I can't help it. This is what, this is the vibe I'm on right now and it just made its way very organically into the songs. That's my take on it at least I also think that she has throughout her three albums gone deeper into her references Rather than splinter into I'm going country, I'm going, you know, pop, EDM, whatever She's always just stun this sort of like Valid thing, you know, your driver's license, pano on my driver's license last week just like we always talked to. your vampire give the satisfaction asking how you doing now? How's the castle built of people you pretend to care about just what you want it Look at you cool guy God. And then she has punk and pop punk Rock is kind of like that's her other thing. And I like that she's showing us who she loves, paying feelalty to them, I think As we continue with you pllus mee equals heart love emoji, we get yet another one of these spiraling choruses Viraling faster and faster. There's our title phrase, finally Fact checking department coming in really quickly. A emoji is a actual drawing of a symbol, whereas what we were talking about is in fact an emoticon E emoticon. I really appreciate that correction. Charlie. You know, I'm a stickler for Lxraphical issues such as this. So much appreciated. And I feel like Olivia would be the same. She's clearly a hyper literate kind of writer, despite her affinity for emoticons here And I feel like that's why this spiral song technique works so well. It allows her to like literally spiral out in real time with her language And then we kind of get to the end of the chorus and we reset And the next song we'll listen to is actually kind of a reset for the album So the album, let's see, it's thirteen tracks. and I told you it was divided into two halves Our love set that we're just making our way through now and we're about to embark into the sad set And we have this like kind of transitional piece called which is literally like the merging of two colors into one and it kind of represents our movement from the Pursuit of desire to the fulfillment of desire. I such to two light wnder Circle So here So. Hm Whoa, whoa Okay, first of all, fabulous metaphor. Red and blue creates purple, simple, but really nice Purple in my quick research symbolizes royalty luxury because historically creating purple was very challenging That's right. Oh, that's what the Roman senators would I think they would wear purple toas if I recall but also symbolizes magic and mystery. There's something very mysterious about that line when she sings purple harmonically, that blending of the red and blue, this is not a Beautifulurple. there is some tension happening there. Cirle Is there tension? It feels like just a kind of major key harmony to me Let's see What is there' something like a minor four for the first purple that kind of moves to u some kind of diminished chord, I think before. Okay. so att the risk of derailing this whole discussion to go ner over the harmonies. I am hearing what you're saying. There's a little more tension on that word purple than I originally noticed. This color theory metaphor is indicating that transition as you're putting it, from like love fulfilled into something isn't quite fulfilled in the blending of these two colors. That's what that chord is telling me. Yes, I think that's a very trenchent observation because throughout the first six tracks of this album. It's like, I want you, I want you, I desire you, I crave you, I can't stop thinking about you. And in this song, I finally get you. And then what happens, Charlie? Yanked away. It's not all it's cracked up to be Support for the show comes from AT and T. You know what's great about summer? All those plans we made, they finally make it out of the group chat It seemems like there's more time to fit everyone in, whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those moments is a must And you can do that with the iPhone seventeen Pro from AT and T. The center stage front camera framing auto adjusts to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone, no over cropping or asking strangers to take it. J the perfect group selfie every time. and ATNT makes sharing those moments without. easy because youve gott to share the pick or it didn't happen, right? 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Find Ollie sleep solutions for the whole family at ollie. com That's oLlY d. com Okay, we're finally together. Our colors are merging. purple theory And yet almost instantly in the next song, it's like, o man I finally found you and I'm still not satisfied. This is It's called the cure All the pretty girls in the foreground of my mine It in loveough but they keep moving the line God for me do this time They're together, but all is not well. There's jealousy. There's doubt. There's insecurity. And once again, a spiral chorus Well Deepen the intensity of those emotions. And it feels like medication's good for me. I sure but it don't matter how you love How is. Nate, Charlie I'm galaxy braining on this Okay, takeick Take me there. This is our transitional song And I was so confused when the verse started happening because I was like wait Is this Major or minor. Pre girls in the foreground of my mine The opening chord is this Right That's a B flat Sus two Which is to say it doesn't have a major or minor third in it. We don't know if it's or this. It's just cool And so it's really ambiguous. haveool We don't really know where we are Yeah, it doesn't give you enough sonic information to know if we should be in love or sad. right between the two She's having this crisis both lyrically and harmonically Well, that crisis only deepens When we get to the I guess like refrain of the song, mayaybe a bridge, maybe a refrain, maybe an interlude. It just consists of O repeated phrase I'm unraveled Okay, I think you are feeling very smart right now because you've got your whole spiral song and now she is unraveling that spiral I mean, I I do most of the time if we're unraveling, you know, that takes us back to the thread on the sweater. from which song was that? Stupid song, I think? Oh my gosh, right There's so many interior references in this h sureir it is coming on the feel like f because you've also got chorus, right? But my head is full of poison, my heart is full of doubt. I got toxins in my bloodstream You tried hard to suck ' them out. Wh sucks out toxins from people's bloodstreams? Vampires? Vampires. Yeah I'd love when someone has like inner mythology of their work. It's kind of a reverse vampire in a way.'s she she's like you know, flipping the idea of that song in gut perhaps. Sucker I'm with you, it could easily be read as a reference to that track We get this unraveling twice and The second time towards the very end of the song, it leads into a great reveal It's like if the cure wrote a song in twenty twenty six the cure, not being the cure. The whole thing unravels. I love that build. It's another kind of delayed gratification that takes a lot of boldness to pull off as an artist, especially as like a big pop artist in Ano Dominade twenty twenty six to wait I mean, what was that? That was three and like a half mines for the drums to finally kick in this song. Yeah. That's a crazy move in this short attention span economy Again, it supports so many of the messages of this album of like just like waiting and hoping and trusting things will work out. and U they don't always, in fact. But hey, we did get another cure reference. So by my count, that's three so far And also another great opportunity to push the voices of her critics who are going to say You're just doing the cure. And she's like, it will never be the cure. Right. That is a fun way to read it, right? She's literally talking about like the cure to these things she's feeling. and she's also like maybe just talking about the band. You'll never be the cure. She's never as great as that greatness, but I'm happy to reference it That's kind of a sentiment that emerges over the course of this album Like you get what you want and yet it's not what you hoped it would be Uh hh. There's this song called Begged that captures this really beautifully. Nothing's quite enough when to know that I get it. I begged. It's like finally got this relationship, finally got this fulfillment. but There's all these things that are making me question. Is it real? because I begged, Is it ever going to be enough This might be like the most beautiful song on the album to me. and maybe the moment that kind of highlights what she can do as a vocalist You are still climing. Cing the h words not. Caris words melted away Beautiful counter melodies happening here It's H hard to sustain that over a simple accompaniment of guitar is some wish fulfillment on this album, Charlie. I'm happy to report because the next song we're going to hear is actually a duet with the spirit that has been watching over all these proceedings until now It's what's wrong with me And it's a duet. with the lead singer of the cure, Robert Smith Looking for ductions. Hope the feeling p as well. I've got to say it's getting too hard every day There's that unmistakable voice that launched a thousand Goth rock imitators And here he is literally singing harmony for Olivia So sweet. I think you were strong with me And yes, that is another spiral chorus. There we go. Buing up to that central title phrase at the very end of the chorus making you wait for it, Charlie She's even got Robert Smith caught up in this spiraling out now. I love that she brings Robert Smith in not just as a collaborator, but the cure in general because The music. I really feel like it captures the same kind of sentiment that we're hearing on this song and on this album You've got like driving drums you want to bop your head along to Yeah. and the saddest lyrics and melodies that make you want to cry. And that's what's happening on this album. It's like love unfulfilled Pop song, but you're gonna hunch over and wear some red lipstick and dye your hair black. totally And even on the cure songs that are unironically positive, like Friday I'm in love, perhap. Yes, yes, yes The way he sings still makes you feel a little sad somehow. It's like even when he's singing, you know about being in love, you're like Are you though? 'cause love to I found kind of tortured, didn me? heart in town They never Let's quickly listen to less another sad banger with a spiraling structure Loving means letting go and wishing me the best Sowest slowest sh. This is the most musical theater moment on this on this album I can totally see this as the moment in the second act when the character is sort of like at their breaking point And then you know, something positive happens if we go like right into the grand finale. And I would not be surprised when there's a blockbuster musical written by Olivia Rodrigo hitting Broadway like in the next ten years. Oh for sure This is your spiral chorus, right? We get that line at the end. But it's done with some sort of like classical pop harmony. We're sort of moving through traditional pop chords And it does make me think that some of that spiral chorus nature hitting the title line at the end does really feel very cllassical pop. musical theater. It is that sort of old AABA style of writing a song where you land the title of a song at the end of the verse. here, of course, the end of the chorus. So you can feel the influence really clearly on this song. You know, this whole time we've been talking about influences like the cure and yet you also have musical theater happening with these cure references at the same time. So she's blending it all together. Totally, which which raises a question for me like Will these songs be played on radio? Because I feel like there is something unfriendly frankly, to commercial mass media market with this approach to songwriting where Again, you have to wait for it. L it requires a certain amount of patience on the part of the listener. Like do listeners have that kind of patience? I mean, there's that old adage, Don't bor us. Don't b usor chorus. Yeah. And here she is making us wait. Now there's one exception to the rule, which is the next track, expectations. This kind of breaks the mold retty much in eighties Banger Oh wait, turns out it is another spiral chorus actually. And yet it feels more sort of radio friendly. And I love this idea of like, you know, now I've got expectations, but Charlie I have a gift for you. hope's a synthesiz M Not quite what is it It's a vultaverse. like aas Yeah, I God hope, yeah, I God drive, I will not lose my f. Don't think my future husband's at this bar in Silverake One thing that I really like about the combination of this very hyper eighties sort of new wave sound with that reverse volta verse we still haven't decided, is that spoken quality feels very new wave. We had seen it from lots of different angles. we had talked about moies with the Taylor inspiration and the Y Chapel does it. But it's not something new. It's actually something quite old. It feels like burn or something How about once in a lifetime Shut unshut So How's the world findind yourself behind the me of a m It in a beautiful house How did I get here? And of course Berurn has covered driver's license. surves us I still see a placeace in the world c fr your can by the places we used to go to because I still fuck love in there. David, keep it PG. Thank you, David Byr for always keeping it weird. David Byr and Livia Rgo have collaborated on stage. They've sung Burning down the House together So this toxing reverse thing Once you put it in the context of those eighty synths, you realize, oh, this is something old. And it's just having new life We've made it to the last track of you seem pretty sad for a girl in love And here's the very end of the final track, cigarette Smoke Pase go do go do . So gentle and it's so sad Yeah. I mean, there's that reversal of the title again. You seem pretty sad for a girl in love The memories are going dark, the guitar is like fading out, making it quieter and quier as The final line is go dark I know. There's also kind of a devastating moment. like we talked about this album being kind of self referential earlier There is a song we didn't discuss in the first half called Honeybee. That's like a love song about the person she's crazy for and she has this, you know, pet name for them, honeybee. And then in this last song, which is so sad and quiet and dark She makes another reference to Honeybee, but Now it's a very different context can? Fucking lonely But stand up for me Oh wow, there's also a reference to that song begged too because she's begging. It's also a reference of driver's license. I mean, it has that very strongly particularly place F bommb And also the phrasing of those triplets the d d d d d d d d d I mean, it might just be a lovevi your Reregism, for sure. Yeah. But yeah, we are in the web of her creative world. Yeah. The spiral. We are in the spiral We' in the spal Siral whoa, Charlie, the vortex it engulfed us all It's a dark way to end the sound, but it feels fitt It's a creative statement of an artist who is going to be unapologetically herself. She's not going to play to a commercial appeal. she's not going sort of mold herself into something that she thinks The market wants, this is very much an album that only Olivia Rodrigo could produce. And I have to say I wasn't sure that she could keep this streak going. you know? She conquered the Sphomore Jinx by many metrics with her ye album Guts, which was a powerful you know, sort of development of her artistic voice And she's continuing that here Yeah. I still have some questions about like how these songs will resonate commercially, but you know, who really cares? the artistically They're solid goals. But whenever you're listening to Olivia and you're at risk of feeling too many emotions, just step back, think about the cure references. Think about the Volta reverse verses. And let yourself spiral into something with every chorus Because you know the payoff is always going to be exquisite Okay, even though it has nothing to do with anything we've talked about, I can't end this episode without asking if you've seen the clip of Robert Smith being interviewed on the red carpet prior to The Cures' Rck and Rll Hall of Fame induction I did not see this. Congratulations, the Cure Rock andet Rll Hall of Fame indnductees twenty nineteen. Are you as excited as I am But the sounds a bit no. Oh no. I'm sure we'll get there eventually. Yeah I guess big guess is. Maybe we just need a few drinks. Like there's nothing more fun than just messing around a little bit, giving some funny answers But also isn't it a sign of maturation We're just like This is great. I've like done something wonderful. I feel like I've earned this and I feel good about it. It's just like the next. You saw that interview It's like how you feeling Oh my God OG it's OG Ananobe after hitting the game for game winner with like two seconds left and this press conference, he was like, yeah, it's really exciting. Yeah, we're very yeah, we're really excited about it. And the whole press room just cracks up because you're so calm about it. All right, you know what I'm not calm about, Charlie. The fact that we have an unprecedented schedule on Switch on pop this week. Thats true. Yeah right? First of all, we're releasing this on a Monday. We usually we releasase on Tuesdays, but this week we're doing something different. We're about to drop three episodes on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday all exploring the phenomenon we're calling feral pop the new sound of popular music, it's all over the place. Rihanna Cruz is reporting some really cool music with us. so come back for the next three days to learn about the music that you might be missing. And if you're not and you're already enjoying it, you're going to enjoy a whole lot more Come check us with Feril Pop. We're tal Nina Jirachi underscores. to Hollis It's gonna to be super fun. Come check out Tuesday,ednesday, Thursday. I'm love Switch on pop is produced by Randa Cruz, edited by Lessa Soap, engineered by Braan McFarlan, illustrations by Iris Gotly, video by Nick Ripps. Our music is by Zach Tonario and Josie Adams of Arc Iris. We're a member of the Vox Media podcast network and a production of vulture,' is part of New York magazine. You can subscribe at NYMacot com slash pod We'll see you tomorrow T them until then Thanks for listening for listening