Reflecting on Career and Chemistry

Supp for the show comes from T andT. Summer. It's when we share more time, more memories and more photos, and at AT and T, the iPhone seventeen Pro is your summer essential. It's center stage, front camera, auto adjust the frame to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone And AT andT makes sharing those picks with everyone easy. Right now at AT andT, ask how you can get iPhone seventeen Pro on them with eligible trade in. requires eligible plan, terms and restrictions apply, subject to change. Visit ATt dot com slash iPhone for details Support for the show comes from Odu Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder? with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other Introducing Odu It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce and more And the best part, OdDu replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you Try Odoo for free at odoo. com That's O d oo d. com Who is the best band with the worst name? Best band with the worst name. Ao Speedwagon deffinite one of the wor names I don't know' the best bands Me first in the Gimme Gimmys I'm just thinking of bad names. I'm not even thinking of the quality of the art. How about the band that I grew up with, most important band in my life, The band that my children are growing up with. Camper Van Beethoven, The Beatles Beetles. Wow, it is a really terrible name when you actually pause and think about it. It's like a bug and a bad pun simultaneously Which is really our vibe. A good pun. I do love a good pun. It probably is from Buddy Holly and the Crickets. There was the Crickets, The Beatles. But you know what I love about the Beatles is that they're always having fun. They're very cheeky. and that music is continuing Wcome to Switch onom Pop. I' s wrriter Charlie Harding. and I' musicologist Nate Sloan That's interesting that you think the Beatles are always having fun because they're Also one of the most famously fractious bands in history In some ways, they are the first band to break up and set the whole template for creative differences that many other acts would follow in the years to come But sure, let's go with you happy and carefree as the predominant association with the Beatles. Why not? Paul McCartney says that making music is called playing music for a reason. It's not working music. He plays music and he's playing music still today at eighty three. He's come out with a new album, Boys of Dungeon Lane I think it's really one of his best late career works. The man from Liverpool. stays the same. Pase tory is to blame The days we left behind She we love be That is classic Paul. It is. It's simple It's beautiful It's a melody that sounds like you've heard it before, even though it's the first time it's ever been written feels in line with other works of his like Mle of Kire, perhaps. M of Kire from the sea. You're maybe even a more completest than I am. I would say his eighties works, I don't know as well, his nineties works, I don't know as well. but everything From two thousand on, I have listened to closely and I really am enjoying this record. He wrote and produced a bunch of it with Andrew Watt, who I think is the happiest thirty five year old on the planet because not only does he work with artists like Lady Gaga, Ancelina Gomez and Post Malone, but he seems to be the boomer whisperer. He worked with the late Ozzie Osborne. He's worked with Elton John, Iggy Pop. he's producing the new Stones record in addition to making this Paul McCartney album And I think they've made something really fresh together whichich by the way, is not easy to do. You know, there are not a lot of folks from the sixties early rock era who are still producing music And if you are, you have this very difficult needle to thread On the one hand, you've got to serve your entire legacy and all the fans and all their expectations of what's come before And at the same way, you need to make something new And you need to do all of that, I feel like in an age appropriate way So I want to see how Pul McCartney is pulling that off on the Boys of Dungeon Lane. Be I feel like he has a heck of a lot to teach us about music even at eighty three. I want to stter a liston at the very top Hm So those are the first notes of the first song, the very first thing that he and Andrew Watt wrote together The song is called As you lie there And we begin in this place of a lot of tension. Yeah. Strap in folks because we're about to talk about the opening chord of this first track of Boys of Dungeon Lane for the next forty five minutes. Yeah. It was I almost drove my car off the road and I hit play on this album and the very first thing you hear is this eply dissonant arpeggiated chord played on the guitar It is such a bold way to start this album when you know, people have such high expectations And they're so curious what it's going to sound like And the first sound is one of utter ambiguity and tension. Yeah and it flored me just. I don't know how much you can say about three notes, It was such a striking way to start this album. Well, it's not even three notes. it's four notes. and I think we need talk We're having this argument before recording. D E flat B. I don't know where you're getting this phantom fourth note So I have here in my hands the Martin D twenty eight. That is the same guitar that Paul McCartney recorded Blackbird on. Except you have to turn it around so you're playing it left handed. True. I'm not a lefty. In interviews, he's talked about how he likes to start songs with something a little unusual, something new to him. Often finding a chord that he doesn't even know what it is is a really inviting place to begin So the first notes that he played for Andrew Watt was this on the guitar Okay yeah, okay, there are four notes there because you're saying that that last notote is actually a pair of notes. Yes. is a ee E flat be Dctor Sloan Professor. musicology with a jazz background Earth is that Tension What is that dissonance I mean, if we call the root note D the Tonic of the chord then we're looking at a D teen with a sharp nine and a dominant seven D flat nine ad thirteen, right? It's a D seven flat nine ad thirteen. Yeahah Paul, you're working us here. We go from that chord. to a slightly more sonorous sound Still very tenense though. Very tenense. And then a kind of pseudo resolution We are finally arriving to our home chord. The chord y is G But always in the base is this D Instead of feeling like home, right Ver up in the air. It's almost like A memory that you can sort of see and touch, but you can never quite hold ono it Yeah absolutely. this chord serves as the creative inspiration for this song, and it puts us in this place of reflection, a reflective uncertainty. I used to walk past your house. Every night I'd look up at your window. The light was on I saw you your silhouette on the blind. Do you think of me? Do I ever cross your mind? C across your mind Was there a minute there where you're like, is Sir Paul McCartney about to rap Like just right at that very first line, the way he delivers it I used to walk past your house. It's like it's I almost thought he was about to do like slick Rick style freestyle. and then it sort of becomes more of a spoken word that goes into a sung verse But yeah, talkking about surprising. didid not expect to hear Paul just sort of talking to us That's the first thing, you know, we hear on this song Yeah, it's not his default delivery, but it is one of his default subjects. It's so sweet. He is singing about a teenage crush A girl named Jasmine who used to live in Liverpool. him walking past and seeing her window. And thinking, Hey, you know, do you ever think about me And he continues. Although we only met One time I'd come food g The feeling that came over me thinkink that we could be forever. so much happening in this pre chorus. First The harmony progresses, we get out of that sort of tense space, we move into some new chords that, again, a little more resolved, conventional. Yeah A little more conventional continuing to ponder this crush and this underlying question, are we going to be E at which point Our nice, pretty harmony descends down into this deceptive cadence Instead of going to our home key of G, he walks down E minor. Wh I think is quite foreboding. I like to think that we could be together Forever. Fororever, fver, fver. So there's that Dark E minor kind of suggests that well, obviously this crush from long ago It's not going to happen for Paul. This is like literally pre Beatles teenager thinking about his old crush and that distant memory is a unrequited love And I think we really hear the way that that love is unfulfilled when we move into the chorus did not see that coming It's so unexpected. This thing rocks Paul McCartney Rocks. This is mostly Paul He plays almost everything on the album with a handful of musicians who also contribute. Andrew Watt, produced, also plays electric guitar and synthesizer here in some keys Ringo plays the tambourine only on this song. Really? Yes We'll get more to Ringo. shortly This is mostly Paul just rocking out and he has he's really got it I think this feeling of A love not fulfilled really pays off not just because of the distorted fuzzed out electric guitars, the heavy bass, the growling vocal, but wow, how does he do that still But it's also, again, our harmony becausecause I love that Paul refuses to stick to a single key. He loves to play with where we are. Yeah. We've gone from the key of G C min change And he does it using this really powerful cord Remember at the end when he's kind of realizing this crush is never going to happen and we instead of resolving to our G chord, we resolve down to the E minor in the next chord Cunchy This use a theory term for that going from the E minor to the C minor It's the chromatic mediant. It is indeed I love theraticedia the Chromatic media has so much tension and only just enough to hold us together Basically these two chords share one note in common, right? You have in E minor E, G, B And C minor you have C E flat G in this common note of G in both of them. And that's just enough to hold everything together in a song that is otherwise feeling like it's completely falling apart This chorus and that harmonic shift plus the drum fll into this distorted rock groove And the lyrics saying like Am I there inside your head? Do you ever cross your mind with this power and distortion This whole thing I could have never expected, especially after all the delicacy of the first verse And it's kind of maybe signaling like even though Paul is eighty three He's still got an edge. He's the guy who, you know, by some metrics, invented hard rock with his song Helter Skelter in the mid sixties He's always, even though he's like, oh, happy, you know, the cute one, he's also had that a little bit of darkness, a little bit of edge And the fact that he's willing to go there on this song and take this like gentle memory and kind of make it a little darker is a referendum on on what he's willing to do as an artist at this point in his career He's also Very funny. I'm tell you this guy loves to have fun writing music. He told an audience at Abby Road Studios when they were doing a listen to this album In fact, This girl Jasmine, who he had a crush on when he was a kid, did come by one day and knock on his door But he was indisposed on the toilet And she left. And so it never happened And I really like the way that he has taken this moment of inspiration and turned it into this fantasy that just is never going to come true Everyone has that crush that didn't happen and it can sit with you for many years And I don't know how Paul's really feeling about it. But I love the idea of almost like a Multi decade long grunch Yeah And I feel like he sings it in a way that is fitting to this his voice. Like he has an older voice. It's huskier. It's a little bit shakier, but it really works in this heavy hard rock kind of vibe I also love this sound. because it reminds me of things that I love about Paul McCartney He has this way of writing songs that are often these sweets that unfold in many movements with radically different parts. makes you think of cllassic Beatle songs like You never give me your money. Yeah. Tream dream more Paul songs like Uncle Albert, Adiral Halsey. standand on the run Even the song Live and Let Die Paul's contribution to the James Bond universe shhifts between G major and G minor He's always modulating and pushing the boundaries of music and finding new places of musical curiosity that fits the form of the song. You mentioned you never give me your money off Abbey Road And I was thinking the same thing. Even that drum fill that takes us from the pre chorus to the chorus felt like it was taken from that recording But maybe that's just you know part of the experience of listening to a new Paul McCartney album. You can't help but compare it to everything he's done in the past. I feel like the album itself wears that on its sleeve. like it's a deeply nostalgic album. He's not It's like you said at the beginning. he's not going to he's not coming out here and being like, okay, I'm entering my trap era or like, you know, my hyper pop era. He's like, he's He's acknowledging where he is in life and he's like looking backwards and thinking about what he's done and what could have been and And every track on this album almost is sort of suffused with that retrospection. Support for the show comes from AT and T. You know what's great about summer? All those plans we made, they finally make it out of the group chat Ite seems like there's more time to fit everyone in, whatever you've got in store this summer, capturing those moments is a must. And you can do that with the iPhone seventeen Pro from AT and T The center stage front camera framing auto adjusts to fit everyone into group selfies. You don't even have to turn your phone, no awkward cropping or asking strangers to take it. Just the perfect group selfie every time. and ATNT makes sharing those moments with everyone easy because you gott to share the pick or it didn't happen, right? Right now at AT andT, ask how you can get iPhone seventeen Pro on them with eligible trade in. Requires eligible plan, terms and restrictions apply, sububject to change visit At d. com slash iPhone for details Support for the show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? Introducing Odu It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce and more And the best part, Odu replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you Try Odoo for free at odoo. com That's OD Oo d. com Support for the show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough So why make it harder? with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other Introducing Odu It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e commerce and more And the best part, Odu replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you Try Odoo for free at odoo. com That's O d oo d. com Okay so if he's getting retrospective I feel like we should get retrospective. Let's find the Beatles references. There are a lot of tracks here where he is happy to look backwards and give us exactly everything we could possibly want as Beatles fans Paul McCararty fans, let's listen to song Mountain Top and see if maybe you're hearing the same references that I'm hearing Okay, I mean That harps a chord, playing these repeated chords That's giving me like Being for the benefit of Mr. Kite Is that right? I feel like you're thinking something out No, No, Nate, you're failing me. I was thinking more like kind of like the Clavichord sound from for No one. Your day breaks, your mind aches. You find that all her words of kindness linger on when she no longer needs you Less the plunky chords, but the harps of chord sound from because So we know that Paul loves to play with the sort of Clav Aord, harppsichcord sound. It's on a number of his solo tracks But if we get into the subject of the song Mountain Hop, it gets really into nineteen sixtyies psychedelic nostalgia So we've got some psychedelic magic mushrooms going through the mountain topop, obviously bringing up ideas of like Lucine a Sky with Diamonds T yourself in a boat on Wh which of course is a song that has an acronym, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds LSD. It also makes me think about the vocal production on songs like Octopus's Garden those crmo shaky vocals are kind of similar to the out of phase like It sounds like Paul's sending his voice through a Leslie rotary speaker like you would send an organ through She mushrooms may bring through seem to want to jo and say hello. So we're tripping Oh yeah And not just on substances, also on road trips. Okay, nice segue. Thank you. There's a song called Down South, which is this really lovely reflection about going hitchhiking with George when they were teenagers, they would sometimes hop in cars, not knowing where they were going to stay and go down to Wales and just hang out and crash in random people's houses and play songs for them. Well we were traveling on the Chester Road Lorry driver picking up a load said Where you heading boys, you need a ride? We said we're heading down south and we jumped inside. Really lovely song about friendship that almost feels like A follow on to Paul's song of friendriendship with John Two of us. Yes Ming someone That same acoustic strumming guitar. son they're driving Ding H anotherother lovely road tripping song with your friend Also a song that reminisces about his friendship with John Lennon as well. It's the next song, We T, which also feels like a title nod to two of us, but it has a different sound That's why I dreamed of you And all we could do T together side by side. We too Yeah you It's really simple plain spoken song but a dream of his old friend. and it features sounds that are reminiscent of John's songs. makes me think of the Melatron. In strawberry fields, you hear those sort of sampled flutes onn the melatron And we too, they use the sampled strings on the melatron We two, doesn't just celebrate friendship John Lenon also celebrates the way that they made music together. The whole thing was recorded on an old Studer four track, the way that the old beatles songs were recorded. And you can even hear that technology at the end of the song when it all kind of devolves into this tape sound That's the tape from winding, I'm guessing. Yeah, so you can go make the next overdub. That's so fun. Exactly. Some of those early tape experiments that they were able to do in the studio as they moved into their mid career as the Beatles, those sounds appear throughout this album. You can hear similar things like on the track, neverever know little w well, I a littleal Those sound eerily similar to a tape loop on the song Tomorrow Never Kns. Get it, neverever know. Tomorrow Never knowns. off course Whatne of are those seagull sounds? Is it just a laugh? How did they make that? It's something backwards. It's a taped loop of Pul McCartney laughing backwards. No way. That's good. Yeah. It's amazing. And it sounds like a seagull. There's yet another nod, I think, to a John Lennon solo song later on on this new Paul album on a song called Salesman Saint I was a salesman I was a saint Look in every God given minute. not to pay the rent. So here's a song about his hard working blue collar parents growing up in Liverpool. They didn't have much, but they made it work for Paul John Lennon has a beautiful song, wororking class Hero. that is the same strumming pattern also in a minor key, same subject A working class hero is something to be Working class hero is something to be Something about that three, four, triple feel, one, two, three, one, two, three also makes it feel kind of old, kind of of the era that his parents might have grown up in. Oh, that's right because there was the great metric shift that happened in music, right? Indeed, yes, you know, right around the nineteen twenties, say Music move from being predominantly in triple meter to for four quQadruple meter Paul's dad was also a musician. so he was in the twies he played in like like a music hall band, I think. and that's right. Paul references that a lot in his in his music. He does There's one more nostalgic song we should call out here It's the first ever Paul and Ringo do whatet. What? Paul calls up Ringo. He says, willill you do this track with me It's kind of like them doing John Cougar Mellenkamp's small town But about Liverpool It's the two of them singing together and Paul's like, hey, will you do this song with me Ringo records only the chorus. He's like, No, no, no, I want you to sing the verse Paul had sung a guide verse and so they had both of their vocals and they could go back and forth and back and forth. So it's the first ever duet between the two of them same was much, but it was on too was And in the yard began to wil and it turn to dust to us. It's a sweet little ditty. Not hearing a lot of Ringo in there. No, that's Ringo every other line. Paul even says on an interview with Zane Low that his voice in Ringo's has become increasingly similar. And so it's hard to tell that this next line is indeed Ringo's star. Yep. Okay. I totally hear it now. Wow. It' a little bit of aluditude It's wild Fare about. Oh my gosh. I'm feeling a little emotional now listening to this and thinking of the passage of time and The connection that these two musicians have had over the years, it's It's powerful. I don't I don't know if the song is, you know, my favorite on the album. It's a little cheheesy, but Paul writes great cheesy song. I can't help but be swayed by the story that's being conveyed within it. Wow. It's meaningful. Okay so there's a lot of nostalgia here for sure I mean, we haven't mentioned the album title yet, but my understanding is this is like a reference to Paul's childhood as well. This is a street in Liverpool that he and his friends, maybe, you know, some of the Beatles among them would would hang out and You sense he's sort of excavating his past throughout this album, his childhood Yeah, the song where the album gets its title, The Boys of Dungeon Lane That's a lyric from the song The Days We Left Behind. And it is both a song about the past And I think it's also in many ways about the present. It's about the reflection on the past and how we feel now about looking back Looking back Why to b Rreind S my past. Mokey bars and cheap guitars but nothing. That's really pretty. Yeah, reallyally sweet The voice a little bit shaky He's showing his age but it's age appropriate. It's like he's looking back and it's really almost tearful, like you can hear him. We're crying here. Yeah. He sings about looking back at white and black. These are black and white photographs, but he switched them around to get the rhyme. Right. We'll give it to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah And that was really in many ways, the motivation for this album was looking back at these old photographs that he found of his youth pre Beatles time and all these stories that came up And he starts this song not dissimilarly from the way that he began the first song we listened to as you lie there This means it's guitar time, onene more time He is such a distinctive way of playing guitar. You can hear that he's self taught his strumming, his picking. It doesn't sound like anyone else. Absolutely. So He opens with this very pretty C major little arpeggio Th then This kind decent Dominant chord to a pseudo resolution. C Yeah, wow. rightight? like There's a lot of dissonance. There's that same idea of like the same note is hanging out downown in the base, creating a feeling of instability, stuckness at the same time Same idea as we heard on the opening track as I lie there. Yeah. Yeah, there's a cool continuation And it feels like Pul is still Exploring Like you said, I keep thinking about what you said at the beginning about how he said that he wants to like discover new things, you know, new patterns, new chords, things that surprise him. Yeah. And I feel like I can hear that on some of these tracks which is really cool for someone who could easily just not do that, you know, just could just mail it in and everyone would be like totally. greatreat, you know, but he's not doing that. He's still searching for new sounds. That's I don't know, that's really unique. One of the places he finds it is on that road And he was a kid that he would visit frequently. S the boys. Don't you lean? Oh the. Isy sure? So them no feels of pain, but so them Okay, so this all seems very thoughtful and sweet and reflective However, the song is inspired by the moment when he was a kid and he got mugged on Dungeon Lane by two older tough kids in his neighborhood. Oh my God. Tw guys go up him on Dungeon Lane, near where he grows up. And they're like, give us your watch. So give them the watch. And He tells Zin Lo at an interview. He's like, Well, I actually knew who these guys were. so I called the police and I watch back Paul' so good at taking a place or an idea or a character and giving it life. And so even though that's the point of inspiration That's not what I hear in the chorus. nothing Itay'ays the same No wom needs to cry. Nothing can reclaim The days we left behind. I feel like this is just such a beautiful reflection and what it is to think back to one's youth But we can't relive those moments. We can't regret them. We can't take them back. They are what happened F in never be spoken. We met at Fth and Rodad, wrote a secret code that can never be spoken That's where he grew up as a kid on Fthland Road. where John would frequently come over, they would write songs together And so we're in this just really lovely place of what it means to be the most important person in the history of rock music still making rock music arguably And to me, he's proving that he can still rock Yes. And he can look back on this era and see it from the present moment Something I appreciate about everything we've heard is They're not tampering with his voice too much. No. There's a little bit of processing, maybe a little bit of autotune. But you really hear the age in his voice. They're not trying to cover it up, which frankly, some other of his peers have done, you know, you can find recordings I won't name names, but some releases where you're like, is this that singer like it sounds so proressous. You know this is part from the very first word of this album It's like, oh, there he is in all of his Elder statesman glory. I think that's a cool choice. Well, that's why I said at the beginning that I think that if you're making new work as a legacy artist, It's really important to actually be who you are, spepeak from the place of wisdom that you have. And in this case, Yes, he's looking back Some of it musically, nodding to the great past solo hits of his own, Beatles songs for sure, but lyrically kindind of the earliest phase of life, places that we don't necessarily know and didn't grow up with And he's doing it in a way that is honest, sincere, reflective Truly, I hope that I amm feeling that grateful and amazing about my life at that phase I definitely imagine when I'm sixty four, I'll be listening to when I'm sixty four And maybe I'll come back when I'm eighty three and listen to this record and see how I'm feeling I can't remember if I've proclaimed this on the pod before, but I do have a theory about who our analogs are in the Beatles. No I think it's very fitting that you took the lead on producing this episode because I think of you as the Paul Oh Oh, I'm so honored. You'reind knowre're you're kind of You're kind of the leader, you have the vision, you have the scope. you're a hard worker sometimes very corny. not my words I love that about Paul. Paul's real. He sent ems. And and I'm John. obviously not with any of the talent, to be clear, but more I identify, you know John has two songs about how much he loves to sleep and how lazy he is. I really identify with that you know, his habits I, let's just say, I, you know, I vibe with It's like it's a little bit ego and Iid, you know, like I feel like that's our that's our the chemistry they had worked because they complement each other in some ways. and if I may be so bold, I like to think our chemistry is kind of similar. Uh So yeah, Paul and John, Charlie and Nate I really need to restate this without any of the talent An of the skill. There is one thing that we have better than Lenon McCartney, though. What could that be? The show has lived longer than the Beatles did as a band. That's true And we do kind of have a Lennon McCartney style arrangement where sure even, you know, if you do more work than I do on a show. We both get credit for it which I'm very grateful for. Anyway., I think it's an interesting model because that's part of the thing that's so fascinating about the Beatles is like all their unique personalities and how they found ways to gel together. and sometimes which is a bridge we'll have to cross at some point Let's never go solo. Switch on Pop is produced by Renna Cruz. Is Rienna a Ringo? U Rihenna Oh man Rienna' no, Rienna is like George Martin for sure. kind of, you know, moving all the knobs and levers and coming and being like, Are you sure you want to do that Okay Fanas are George Martin that makes Brand McFaron our engineer are Jeff Emrick, the engineer. Jeffic. Yes,es. Bless us up, our editor L has got a bit of George. I feel like Lisssa is patiently waiting for us to figure out our shit like George and the Let It Be documentary. So maybe a little bit friing upp scene as well keep keeping the whole thing together. The manager I don't know how much longer I can sustain this narrative. We've got also on video, Nick Rrippps, Illustrations, Iris Gotlave, The music Zonaro and Jossie Adams of Arch Iris who are definitely Our Billy Prestons's. O, good deep cut. I like it.. Making us much more musically sazvy than we are. No ring No Ringo. We don't need a ringo equivalent. He's just ringo Remember of the Vox Vedia podcast network, a production of Vulture which is part of New York magazine. I guess all of that is our Apple records. You can subscribe to