Desire and Power in Big Stick

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Spend two hundred fifty dollars on your first campaign and get a two hundred fiftyllars credit go toinkedIn. com slash campaign, terms the conditions of supply. Yeah. Welcome towitched P. I' song wrriter Chie Hard I really think that everyone should try being in a band at least once The most fun I've ever had has been playing them. I had my high school jamband phase, then college indie roock, then post college Americana Even this podcast is kind of a band. we just talk instead of play I'm not alone in thinking that bands are important. I was recently reading a piece in Time called In Defense of the Band which makes this case that a band is a salve for our hyper individualized commodified world It's a real opportunity to make a connection. It was written by Katie Gavin of the band Moona, which is Katie, Joseette Maskin, and Naomi McPherson. They're one of my absolute favorite bands right now I wanted to talk with them because I wanted to hear from all of them why being in a band matters, and I also wanted to hear about their recent album Dancing onn the Wall big eighties over the top production. On the surface, it's an infectious pop record. Underneath, the lyrics draw on the collective, activism, mutual aid, the fights against climate change and war. But really it's about how we can be our best together Here's my conversation with Muna Katie, Naomi. Thanks for being on the show. Re really appreciate it. Thanks for having having us. My first thing is I'm just wondering how we do this because this is only my second time interviewing three people, which I did that a long time ago. Sure. And I'm just curious, what is the most effective way to make this great for all of you as a collective? Well just I feel like it's v I mean, yeah, just vibe it out. You can direct questions at individual people if you'd like can tos it around. Yeah sometimes feel sometometimes it feels like an attack and sometimes it feels good. But I think we've gotten pretty good because we like as a rule don't do like individual interviews, like we always get interviewed together. so I think we've gotten pretty good at. Yes, it was a good rule. Yeah. Okay I'm just gonna trust and this is going to happen. Yeah we got. tr we're good at allowing Well, I'm excited to see how that unfold. Yeah I want to start with last night I was Really enjoying a conversation that you had with the songwriter Justin Tanter. He's been on the so on pop a couple of times.. his podcast Unfamous. Really great. Absolutely. And Katie, you said It's so crazy to me that most people aren't in bands. And I would love for you to elaborate what it is to be in a band and why you wish it upon others. And then let's open it up because I kind of want all your perspective. Well think I have like life partners and I have peopleople who like intimately know my experience of my life has been, you know, like we're sharing this really crazy ride together And I think It's a combination of like A best friendship a marriage and like a family. It's like a really, really close Insane demanding Connection I think all three of us are very obsessed with meaning and purpose in life. and I think that these relationships like, They ground our lives and they give us so much purpose. Let's open it up. How are we feeling about being in a band? How are we feeling about being a nail? I think I mean Katie summed up Pre succinctly and aptly, but yeah, I think us, we exist as sort of this Dave unit and space in which we are able to incubate our ideas and our creative vision and stuff And I think we are in a culture that prioritizes individuals individuality. I mean, yeah, we live in an intensely brand focused neoliberal society. And I think sorry guys. And I think that leads to the prioritization of like easily consumable singular individual identities, which is why I think we have so many pop stars in so few bands Yeah. Or at least there are so many bands, but they're not getting attention And yeah, I think we're just fortunate that we like got in at the very last second, you know, in the twenty tenens and that we're able to do this with our lives. I just think doing it by myself or I'm sure y'all would feel the same way too, it just would be really, really hard So're we're fortunate in that sense to have each other Yeah, I mean, I think it's a few things. I like to collaborate, like my favorite act in music is collaboration. like I think I Enjoy. bouncing off of other people and like trying to figure out something that is better than anything I could do like by myself And also I'm like, I could never exist in a public facing role by myself absolutely ever. Like I don't know how people do it. It keeps us insane, it keeps us grounded, like it also just like gives us a purpose that is like so much more than Anything that is driven purely like by ego. I think that is the most like useful thing about like being in a band because it creates an identity that is outside of yourself, you know? And I think that's always been part of like Muna's kind of vibe if that makes any sense. Yeah. Or like if we are having success, it doesn't feel like it's like me, the person is having success. Yeah feels like This like idea. that we that is a collective idea between the three of us and also shared with the fans and the people who like our music. like it feels like not just a win for me personally when something good happens for us, it feels kind of shared experience. I love this. it's a little personal. I'm restarting a band, getting back together with my old college collaborator two decad ago. That's so cool.. We've been in different cities forever, so we started writing again. So maybe some of this I'm also curious about some of the things that I can learn about. how to be in an effective collaboration I think there's probably no better way than D demonstrating our collaboration and talking about your new mus, you have this album dancing the wall. I want to start from the top, get so hot. It begins in a state, I feel like of disorientation where We're in the summer heat in LA Sun beating down in concrete, no palm trees to block out the sun. It's a dance song, but at the very beginning, we can't even identify a downbeat so we're like kind of Yeah Eventually four of the floor drummy comes in ink the house clean I see good And it's kind of just like this repeated refrain. It makes me think of like a D of Summer kind of song It's not like T first chorus. It's a pure dance song. Could use this as an example of just how did this happen as a collaboration? and how did you decide to put this out first as the thing that we first hear? This is arguably like one of the most sort of like in the way that people might stereotypically think of like band collaboration, this is kind of the closest to thataz In the sense that like We were in Nashville with Daniel Tachion, who's an amazing songwriter who works with Kasey Musgraves and a ton of other people. and he's he really just has such an awesome vibe.'s like so cute. He knows when to like step in and say something or to just like let you cook and be like a vibe curator and just create the space within which the music happens. But in this particular instance, he had been on a vacation with his family and he had this little like Game boy looking ass like essentially machine portable dow like machine. and he made this little synth loop He's like, I'm just gonna to play you guys some stuff. And then there was like a loop that was sort of is it is this. I mean, we've like edited the sounds. Yeah. But the basine synth. The bline, the lead synth, I ended up like programming it on another on another synth. but Yeah, we took this beat from him, cut it up. made the form that it has and we were just like looping it It was like stream of consciousness lyrics. But it was your idea to be like it's something like it gets so hot. Yeah We went to barbecue and it was really hot outside. Yeah in the morning it's just one of those things that happens. I mean, it's been happening in LA and New York the past couple of weeks. we're in May now. so the seasons are changing. pure dance song, but it's disorienting and I think you're hitting the nail on the head. there There is something sort of unsettling and unsettled about the heat. It is like it penetrates the song and creates this sort of like dizzying, disorienting mirage on the top of a hill kind of like feel sense. Yeah. I have a really specific feeling when it's getting super hot in L.A In my twenties a lot, it actually like kind of induced like this kind of mania where it was like All of a sudden I would have like I would be staying up a lot later, like not even necessarily going out, but like in my bedroom, I'd be like, I want to like smoke cigarettes. like I just like go I want to go like demon mode a little bit. and And also when I first moved to LA and we were at USC, like kind of burdensome sun on these like endless stretches of concrete in like food deserts. There's like a feeling of like I live in a dystopia. And so therefore I'm going to behave like a heathen. And I think that that was enough to work with for like to build this world of the song. And Naomi has said before that like that track on the album kind of serves as the like in Fair Verona the record. L it's like it's setting the scene of like this is where We are playing out this drama. I feel like it's really appropriate then maybe to go to the title track, which comes right after that, dancing on the wall Yeah because I feel like It is a big dance production, but something is wrong. Yeah. That's classic Mona of mying is not f. If I'm not crying on the dance floor, something's not right. Yeah, that'scial I don't know if it's supposed to be a ninety degree turn from Lionel Richie's dancing on the ceiling. you really established this pristine eighties pop production. I was wondering maybe Joe, if you could start with how do you go about in your collaboration deceiding on what the sound and the vibe of the thing is going to be I feel like a lot of it came as a post reaction to our last record where we kind of felt like MNa had to be as expansive as possible. this record, we really wanted to make a record that feels Every is connected and it's in a time and space. and I mean, it was the first time that we actually like had a studio that was ours that we could like really into and focus on like, this is what this record is and I think 's just like the eighties of it all, it's kind of the music that we I feel like love the most like in our core and felt the most attracted to and I mean it's funny that I don't know if I feel the record is in a way, but I feel like we were bright. It's like a lot of people do eighties things, but they just like put on a gated snare Yeah. and they're like's eighties and And and there's like a June. And you're like eightiess like No, just like ye really like almost blaringly bright. Totally. And you've got like slap base, you've got things that are in your face making George unapologetic. Yeah there's also like a political Yeah element affected by everything as well. likeike I think There is a reason the music of the Reagan Cold War era had this kind of shiny, metallic, futuristic, bright, but also like something's off feeling to it And, you know, the anxiety about the future and like a hundred I think We all feel that now too. And it's so it makes sense that there's like a natural sort of at least for us, like There is a clear connection between our reality as we experience it in this sort of conservative backlash with a lot of future anxiety. and anxiety about the climate as sort of expressed in it gets so hot. And It makes sense on a sort of academic level to like Go to that place because they it's still rich to pull from. And yeah, there's so many parallels. So there's there's a lot of vision that I'm hearing from y'all in that like, you know, you want to make something that sounded consistent. Yeah. Is that something that you all are checking in on in your gut in the room or you were whiteboarding? and it's like There were a lot of songs that like had we had a few different like sessions where we would like listen through everything. And also this had to do with the fact that like I had put out a solo record in between our third album and this album and I was like going out on stints ret tour and then like would come back and we had to like a certain amount of time had passed and I had done a certain amount of demos and they had also worked on stuff when I was gone. So it was kind of like, we need to like keep doing these like states of the Union. Yeah, it started with like We had like A list B lus C list. And I think at a certain point, like songs did get put on the chopping block because they were not cohesive enough with the rest of the album. Like it would like count as a strike against them. I think we like we're like this is important enough to us to make something that is like sonically consistent. And then, you know, like when it gets to the farther end of the process, then We had like a piece of paper on the wall that we like rolled out and It had like the songs not in track, not in album like order, but it took us a long time to get there. And there were definitely like several conversations about I think I felt like I had some moments of being like This is really, really, really hard to meet the standards of like this and like we had some good conversations about like what I needed as the like main songwriter of the band from I needed a lot of positive reinforcement at different points to be like Don't give up. like you're doing a good job and like we're going to get there. It's just that You know, we're going to be tough on you because we know that you can do this Yeah. I think about I don't, like the songwriter Dan Wilson has this amazing deck of cards. They arere like tools for effective songwriting and collaboration. And a lot of them are like, the improv thing. likeike, yes, An, just like keep going. Yeah. What's really different about a long term relationship is like you know each other on every level. you've probably had every kind of conversation. So I'm just curious at this stage when there is something that difficult that needs to be said, How do you approach that? You know, you're saying there is some vulnerability in needing some support, but also needing to push at the same time. So how do you all approach that? I think we have different tactics Mhm. I think I'm the most, um I probably approach things with the least amount of tact. like I don't mean to be. I don't think you have a choice. I think you just gota. Yeah, I think I will say there is an understanding between us that we are trying to make the best piece of work that we can And so when things are said even though it can feel personal. And I think we each have to work through that like personal like sting of if it like Perch There's an understanding that we are just trying to make the best art possible. That doesn't mean that when something is said, it doesn't hurt your feelings. You know what I mean? And sometimes we have to work through the feeling heart to get to the That's about. the work and then We just try like matter, no matter what, but I don't know. We each kind of go about it a different way. and I think we each have different needs, but it's also it's just like so moment to moment.. But it just does always come with the understanding We are trying to make the best art Yible. You're serving something larger.. Always, always. So it's like any long term relationship where it's like where we just have to continually see ourselves as a team and like, know we're going to get through it, but like not be in denial about those Tension points is a lot. We can't have closeness with that some conflict. Yeah. and learning to navigate it, I think is always the sign of a healthy relationship. Yeah. Yeah I'd like to target a production question to Naomi about dancing on the wall. Sure. Though bright eighty sounds, which are invoking this whole sort of political identity. Sure. They're there. But there's also a whole lot of other contemporary things poking through. Sure, yeah, totally. Can you take me to the bridge? The halftime bridge. Yeah. This Ma record has probably more halftime moments than anything we've ever done Dancing in the lighths thatance across my eyes watching as a second hand turns and turns around again. Yeah, the drums kind of switch up completely from sort of lin drum world to more kind of yeah, process like nine hundred nine universe The synths kind of warp and shift and glitch and the vocals kind of get sucked into this other I don't know. It's an awesome moment. World, thank you. Yeah, we really were gunning for the halftime brridge kind of from the beginning. We were just like, this is a good idea and we should pursue it. What does it do for you and for the song? I think we're just not comfortable not having like some kind of little curveball moments here and there in songs, not that they're like world shifting transitions or anything like that, I do think The bridge is this more like anxious introspective kind of like Yeah, looking at the clock like as the seconds are ticking and you know, it felt right to not have that just be like, blasting through with the same beat like didn't serve the story of the song. There's there' just a little like something about Yeah, wanting to pull the listener into this other kind of narrative reality that was just like an instinct thing that we did in the studio Ging up sw Again, there's also like crazy harps acccord stuff and like you might need to everyone needs to listen to it but there is harps Acords'srazy. It almost does that thing of like because it is a dance floor song, it's almost like the bridge is like the transition in between two other songs and experience on the dance floor.' like you like need a little chill out moment to yourself. Totally That's the vibe that it gives me. Yeah, yeah, certainly. It also is like, you know, in movies when like someone is like in a club and then the sound, you know, is kind of like getting more and more low passed. Yeah And like someone is becoming more like in their head. Yeah. kind of that Totally. the place where you go internal in the party, even though're surround by people. Totally. Yeah. It's hard to not get cinematic with it. like the songs. we're not cinnesthes, but I do think there is an aspect of sort of like a visual thing like you want it to feel like how something would look if X, Y and Z and then try to figure out how to make the music get there. Let's go to the next song. Let's go to you said Girl. take me stuck in the sad They put me on all for these sad. I did not know that you wrote a song for me. I was an psychiral. But it just brought me home because I lived in your collective neighborhood for ten years And so just like I went to all time a lot whichich all very sweet but you know, it's a song that has, I feel like A lot of very specific place, very specific feeling.ure. It's so joyous in describing the beautiful dingy hllscape, which is the Boulevard in Los Angeles. Yeah. How do you think about managing specificity versus universality in your work and who you're speaking to? Honestly, it's like funny now that we're performing it Especially like, you know, we've just done a bunch of shows in New York and it's like it's not like it's a distract to New York, but we love is like there's a funny line in it about like She's leaving you for New York City, like What a p I roll for New York City such a pity that she never understand. It is funny. It's like, I don't think I really thought about it that much. I think There was an interest for us in We've been in those neighborhoods for yeah, like ten years now. and We were interested in like capturing kind of a sense of the local My approach to like organizing and political stuff like has become a lot more like localized, I think, out of a sense of like despair for affecting things like on a global scale, it's become like, either more like just like one to one like mutual aid relationships or like focusing on really local issues. and like my local my community. And u I think that kind of led to this interest in like Yeah, like having a song that for us is is like it it's really cute because it's like We had a friend who had a birthday party at Capri last week and like this this is the bar in Eagle Rock And like we like have basically have a song for her, you know. It also feels kind of fun because it's I think it's very accepted and commonplace for people to want to shit on LA for some reasons that are maybe grounded in some truth and then some that are just like patently absurd. And so it felt, I don't know, it felt kind of like punk for us to like be like, no, we like it. and hose down. Yeah, we're holding it down. But I think it took on an added layer of meaning for us. We wrote it Or Katie brought the demo to us in maybe the summer of twenty twenty four, I think, and we started working on it and we were instantly once we got that like The chant like post chorus moment, we were like, oh, we got it. The song finishes itself from here. We figured it out T ser And we had been working on it, and then at the beginning of twenty twenty five, the wildfires happened added an emotional layer for us that wasn't there before, colored it sort of differently. I had a lot of friends displaced a lot of burnt known homes Yeah. Yeah. ye. yeah, it was horrible. But a lot of people being like, I'm like staying because this is my home. And I love this place. Yeah. And people stepping up for each other in a way that I think goes against the stereotype about Los Angeles People't know shit about LA. They don't They know about certain areas Yeah which is great. You also wrote a song which is about a specific area. Yeah.' a lot And it's not even their little home. All times not even in the East side, but we won't even It was just It was a behavior that we found was common in people as a first state suggestation I understand. But the eastide is like it's just like a feeling. I mean, I the East side is in New York. the East side is in definitely. You know what I mean? Like Yeah You can be specific, but it's like everyone knows. We're like celebrating and lampooning like hipster. Yeah' talking about fucking hipsters. Yeah It's Bushwick. It's well Yeah, you know, it's Williamsburg back in I don't even know now you can even it Yeah. Yeah, it does so much more than just joyous, poppy, infectious thing. One thing I wanted to start with was the sort of low baritone vocals that sound They remind me, they're like Eastide girls Do they remind me of like, oh yeah. or like spin me right round Yeah it's totally it's it's a reference to What is it a reference to? I can't remember the name. I'm not. I don't remember You think of West End girls Yes, but also the vocal thing is definitely I mean, it's just like it's not an eighties rip, but it's an eighties rip. Yeah Yeah, I literally don't remember it's fine. Okay The chant. I'm laughing at you being like, it's a reference to I'm like you guys usually yes'm exation right now which is like Joe can't find it. you we all can't find it. I find it. One day we all will. But it is it's just like it exists somewhere It ist tell us what it is Okay once again, we have to go to the bridge. This is one of my favorite brides of all time. Tkyo or things astrological, Nashville, London N Cia with the n in Austin Pis f my friendfch and the confiration careouse So' the of perit your m and control. Maybe some references here feels very I didn't start the fire. Totally. It's this sort of like free association of so much about Eastide community. Could tellell me about how this bridge happens. Okay, so it started with me thinking about how At that point we were like, this might be a single on the record. So I was like, okay, I want to have that moment, that like classic pop moment where you're naming different cities. I was like, we haven't done that shit, like let's do it. Because I think we wanted to have that idea of like the east side exists like everywhere, whether you're on the east side or not. It's just like a feeling. And u I just started like, free associating, yeah, like things that are to me like a part of the mood board and Yeah, it just went like queer like haircuts, people with adjusting their outfits with safety pins or like wearing a safety pin in their ear What's after that? . I think astrological like just when people are talking about astrology, you're probably on the east side Or the Lans I know are drinking like neegronis or like they care about what kind of gin They're like drinking. if they're if they're drinking C back to the fancy restaurant from earlier. Right, right. And then Fuck she's n monogamous is like you know, just the experience of like all the like hot non binary people that are non monogamous on the East side. It's like they're all the heartbreakers. Props surroundving Paris with non monogamouss, by the way. Thank you so much. Thank you. you know, That's why they pay me the big bucks. And you want to like pick up the pace, right? So we drop the cities and we're starting to just like hit him with it every time role playay, Rfare, gender, confirmation care. And then like the rest of it is kind of just a love letter to like our story of like, Our first shows that we played were like house shows and then now we have our own studio and you know, just like our time growing up and like what we've been through there. when we were making our second record, I lived in a house in Glendale with like or six roommates and it was just's the house that doesn't have AC. Yeah, that was the house that doesn't have AC. Ohz. So that's a roommate draw. That's a long. That's like ye that is a reality TV show in that. Yeah. Five people. LA. Ebody Everybody would sleep like in the living room. They lived in the attic. It was crazy. I loved it.. It was cool. Yeah Take me up, Jooy Ride,bum on the hard drive. three hundred sixty five. shhout out Charlie XyX. F feelil production wise, we just didn't Remember when we were doing it this is just simple. in a way, like this is exactly what it is. But you guys also like we I didn't want the chords It to go They wanted to go to the six Yeah and have this kind of big emotion. And I was like I was like, I wanted to be exactly what it is like straight forward one the whole time. Yeah, I think we hadd already had an argument about like the dancing on the wall bridge. I was like, you guys are like just trying to make everything weird, you know what I mean? But they were completely right that like it needed the six to like give it a little bit of a emotional feeling. sad The sixix is minor and C Yeah. Yeah. And just like that feeling of like, I love us, you know, That's what makes me feel when we're doing it live I care how soay to make your mind Yeah have enjoy right H S It makes it less sort of like Not that it's not It makes it have a feeling. It imbues it Yeah with more emotionality, especially as we get into the parts that are more like, I guess political gender confirmation care. ridiculous that it's even a political notion. But and then the nostalgic as it sort of resolves like back into the chorus, which is very unlike us to have song is so in and around the one like we don't like the one The one is too r don't like. Why would say The one the one dip into the one and then leave it.'astide Girls is very insistent on the F. Yeah. in a way that I feel like we actually haven't done. No in a funny way. It's been a minute. And in some ways, a lot of the decisions on that song we were trying I feel like in this album in general, we weren't afraid to do like I feel like we've always felt the need to try to be different But in this song, we were trying to do like, this is what the song is let's do what the song is and like playing like power chords or like playing like the simplest baseline like for what it was is the decision that we wanted to make We were fed to embrace like older pop music that I feel like we at one point were like the sucks kind of I know not trying to obscure the that it is basic or something. Yeah, like hundred. And that's why and that's why we were at the one, you know We all do it You have a night for yourself but don't like the sound of the silence, so you turn on the TV just for the ambiance It's a little trick that helps you feel like you've got company and aren't alone And other insurers, well, they may make you feelillone But when you switch to GICo, you've got claims reps available around the clock So whenever you need, you'll have people around to help And let's turn on the washing machine. just for good measure Isn't that soothing? It feels good to have support. It feels good to Gaico. This summer, Prime V videoide takes you back before legally blonde, before law school and into the world of Elle Woods in high school. Set in nineteen ninety five, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is until her family moves from Bel Air to Seattle. packed with iconic fashion, nineties nostalgia, and a throwback soundtrack, Elle proves one thing Law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of legally blonde, watch Al, a new original series only on Prime videoideo july first Study and play. Come together on a Windows eleven PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows eleven PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft three hundred sixty five premium, and a year of Xbox GamePass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller Learn more at windows. com slash student offffer. whilea suppupplies last ends june thirtieth terms at aka. ms slash collllege PC So we've got a song about our local community And the whole world. Yeah The whole world kind of Yeah. The side is a state of mind. Yeah. I wanna move to a song that is about your musical references. Wanna be here A reference to Bikini Kill rebel girl. we speak to how that song and that group is important to you and why you wanted to invoke it on your record? Yeah. I mean, when we started, we I think there were like aspirations of haaving like a Rye Girl punk band and like being in the canon of Rya Girl and the truth is that it's like we just weren't meant to make punk music in that way. That wasn't our actual musical lineage, but it is absolutely like our ethos like lineage. And I think To me, it's like, it's bikini Kill and also it's also the song Boys Wanna Be her byes. Oh yeah. Yeah ye. energy of the energy peaches Yeah. it's funny because that verse for W to Be her is like I wrote that in like twenty seventeen so. I would have been like yeah, very early twenties. Oh it's got a some earlyenties energy change. earlyies for in. Yeah. And then we like figured out the rest of the song with our collaborator Leland. Yeah, we were kicking around chorus ideas because we she had all the verses. There's like more verses that aren't on the song. I feel like Yeah Yeah and we kind of like between them, but Yeah The early de of that song sounded like a cake song. like it'. it was like, I think there was like cowbell. Yeah Cake is in the genealogy Yeah, H Yeah some subtle cake rocks Yeah, Bikini Kill kind of the specific idea of like the sort of parallel of like trying on the dress and being best friends like aspect that exists in Reobel Girl. I think really from a musical standpoint point, sorry, we were going for like a Latigra Decepticon thing. one hundred, hundred percent whichich is, you know, it's still in the it's in the C Iiana to gety NY. Yeah, ye. So there is there's a Decepticon. And I think it's like a little bit of a nod. We're not like in full like nostalgia era, but I think that it's it's a little bit of a nod and an homage to like that feeling that we had when we were starting of like our relationships to each other where it's like You're just really cool. And I like want to be connected to you in some way. and like I'm confused at what way that is exactly. And The last thing I'll say about it is I think that a lot of these songs we made because of our excitement about like how they would feel to play live tootally. And that song is so fun to play live.agine Yeah ye. Well, you all are in a band together and what's interesting is that you know typically, we think band, we think guitars, we think drums and bass. And obviously there's a lot of electronics and production and computer work that takes place to make this music the sort of just like amazing pristine thing that it is. We are computer. You are computer. Yeah I can see Meghgan laughing at me. We are comp comp my like I get understand. Computer. Okay. J You often have an instrument in hand Yeah. What is the importance of having live instruments in electronic productions? Well, I mean like I think it's it's just a choice. for us, you know what I mean? But I think it wasice. Okay. so when we were first Taking you back to twenty thirteen, thirteen. So we made some songs and this is when Katie was like the primary person behind the computer and like. I remember we played like one of our first shows with at this like art place And it was Nom and I with two guitars, Katie with MPC MPC And we were playing and we were like, this fucking sucks. Yeah. the show the show, the show was like just didn't have the ass like that it needed. Yeah. And I think the more that Muna developed the more we realize like, yes, we like certain drum sounds in the actual recordings, but having real instruments in a room in a live show. is the most like cathartic thing like that you can bring and seeing somebody like actually hit something. feeleing that hit like is so important to The live show, which is such a different. I mean, I think now like those two spaces are the most like comm mingled as they've ever been But if a song is different on a record, it needs to change for the live show. If it can't be communicated in a way that it's going to feel like you are having some sort of catharsis But I think at this record, we did the best that we could to bring those two spaces together, but I mean, like When we're making stuff We're just trying to make like whatever is right for that song as opposed to like needing to play something. And I think that took us a long time Do Wanab Bee her is honestly a good example of that. Wan There is a simplicity that I think with a lot of these songs, even the simplicity for us because I know like it's never actually that simple. We're throwing things as often and as much as we can, but for us, it's a simplicity that I think took us a long time to reach in terms of like the musical pect and it's still really complex, but for us That song Anie Cy Girls are I think a good example of like us trying not to like over salt the chicken. Yes. I wish we could talk about every single song on this album. I really do. But people have to go listen to it. Totally. So maybe just we could talk I think for a long time about Big stick. There's a lot happening on this song.. So I can make you on anything that I want you to that I don want you to, that I want you to. I can make you on anything that I want you to. what I wanted to But one of the things that really stands out to me about it, aside from some like very strong overt politics, which are powerful The underlying nature of the song feels different than some of our other songs here. where I feel like so often one things I love about Muna is that you are so good at giving permission to experience pleasure for people and that joy is available This song deals with desire and maybe the sort of like flip side of desire. Totally. And I was hoping that you could talk about how how you arrive together at this place of desire is not necessarily the thing that is serving us collectively. Right. It's interesting. I think like the third record was so much about like this idea of reclamation of desire and pleasure as these like implicitly I don't know, beneficial like benevolent. Benevolent undertakings and then Yeah, I think that was almost intentional. I think that was a conversation we had like with this and the record as being like an inversion of that sort of like purity, the idea that like Our desire can lead us down path that are self destructive like on dancing on the wall. And then in Big stick, like it's, you know, a conversation more wr large, but I saw a really cool series of videos that a fan made about like talking about desire or the theme of control over our records And like It was like breakdown of like control on Dancy onn the Wall And first of all, it's so cute and cool that like people spend that much time, you know what I mean? Like I love hearing like if somebody wrote like a paper for like college course or something on like our music, I just think that's so cool. But she said something that I thought was astute and honestly like helpful for explaining it, which was like that A lot of times like In Muna songs, I'm talking about desire and feeling like loss of control over desire or like maybe I'm the one in a dynamic who has the control or I'm taking back control in like a song like anything but me But like Big stick is a song That's talking about like larger forces that have control to manipulate our desires. And I think that like In this day and age, it's an experience that everybody with a smartphone has that like Our behavior is being like modified by the technology that we're using and like are desires can be manipulated in so many ways, like whether it's like the type of media that we're Consuming or like the conversations that we're having with people around us or like the manipulation of just like financial needs, like so then you have to like have cognitive dissonance to like repress certain things that you know are wrong and just keep moving forward the song gets to a place of like At the end of the line, there's like always the manipulation of just like hard power house with a biger fence T kids with anheritance like you want to ring life self defense you want to give money to the government so have m t to pr neighborh If you speak up too much, like you can be put in jail or worse, you know, Actually my reference for this song was That song handandlebars by Flowbots. Do you remember this song? song. Anbody know You do I can ride my bike with no handlebars. Yeah Yeah No handlebars, No handlebars. I can ride my bike with no handlebars, No handlebars. I was a kid when that song got super popular, I think. I don't know exactly when it was, but like I just remember being like, this was such a cool experience of like you're kind of drawn into the song by like the catchiness of it and the imagery that he's presenting and then it kind of feels like The like wool is pulled off of your eyes where it's like something in the beginning that feels quite innocuous like is revealed to be like Eil And I was like, I want to try to do that with Big stick but it's also like L last thing I'll say about it is like, This is one of the times where like we write something and then Like when we wrote, I know a placel, that was like, we wrote it like six months before the pulse shooting in Orlando Pase I wrote imagining like a space of laying down your weapons, but I was like This is not, I wasn't thinking like This is a literal thing. And it was like really heartbreaking that that became the case. And then it also was really humbling that like our community used that song as, you know, like an anthem to kind of heal in that time. And with Big Stick, I will say that like I wrote that line about If you have a problem with starving kids in Palestine, then you'll end up in jail and like we'll send you to Louisiana. I wrote that about Mahood Kalil BTSD but one We have something new and incred I up in jail fing it Lisy and a million dollar bail because I have a big stickp. But I didn't put anything in the song about like being murdered by by the state becausecause I was like, well, we're not there yet. And then between writing the song and the song coming out We had two people be murdered. in Minneapolis, like by the state speaking up against the ice raates. So it was kind of like this thing of like It really is this bad, you know, at this point. likeike it's it's The song feels really escalatory, but it's like this is where we are. And I think it feels so good to be able to like have a song like Big Stick that's so explicit that like I think a lot of times like right now people feel speechless. L we just like what do you fucking say like in the face of everything that's going on? So I think it's really nice to have a moment where we can like be saying the same words together and be angry together like collectively. like that is its own like weird kind of L it feels good. It honestly does. And hopefully for some people it will be helpful. The song which sort of talkks so much about the negative impacts of desire, the experience of b and as an audience is the inverse of that is it like is the freedom from those things which are right oppressing you. By naming them, by being like, I see what's going on. Then you have like one second, of course. And then we finish the show and I go back on my phone. Yeah I mean, I think it also just speaks to like mean, this is a heavy like a heavier topic, but I'm like Why is there desire on any part of this record? Like why is there the need to like chase somebody who's not fulfilling you when we live in this world that is unjust. I just think like we're all trying to satisfy a need and this is maybe the the one time that we're really poking at like the real thing that's really ing Yeah. Yeah a powerful moment Any final advice as I go start a band, what are some things that I should just any one thing of that what can I bring into my collaboration to be a great collaborator That's a good question. Open to anything Yeah. put on your your craigslist ad open to all, open to anything. Yeah, I think communication above all, ask questions, cheheck in all the time Check in all the time and don't be afraid to ask for what you need. and Ask your collaborator what they need and a ton Throw effects on the master. Tally. P put an effect on the master. Totally Who knows? It might sound awesome.. I appppreciate it, Ch'all. Yeah. Thanks for having us. Mks Switched on Pop is produced by Rana Cruz, additional production by Saha Rrkush, engineered by Brand McfFarane, edited by Lissa Sou, illustrations by Iris Gotlib, video by Nick Rippps, music by Zach Tonario and Jossie Adams of Arcris, who we're going to be featuring later this week in their very own special episode They have a new album out called H tomorrow It's a dystopian sci fi ballet. Really, it's gorgeous. Go check it out and listen to them in our feed in just a few days Remember of the Vox Media podcast Networ and productductionulture. support part of New York Mag and subscribe and myMagot com slash pod. We'll be back again later this week with I tomorrow from Archiris and on Tuesday with a regular episode until then Thank for listen We've all been there. You pop into the shop for five minutes and all of a sudden you've forgotten where you parked Car