Remembering her legacy and spirit

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Collect one of nine legendary cups with a FIFA World Cup meal. participating McDonald's for limited time, whilew suppies last All rights reserve twenty six McDald's at FF World Cup twenty six This summer, Prime Video takes you back before legally blonde, before law school and into the world of Elle Woods in high school. Set in nineteen ninety five, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is until her family moves from Bel Air to Seattle. packed with iconic fashion, nineties nostalgia, and a throwback soundtrack, Elle proves one thing Law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of legally blonde, watch Al, a new original series only on Prime videoideo july first Hi everyone. It's Miranda here just warning that this episode contains talk of addiction and suicide and honestly, it's quite a sad episode for us. So grab a tissue This is Talk nineties to me, where we carve out a brilliant career as a charismatic TV presenter, prolific author, and all the Medals flirt where we hide our pain and our intelligence beneath our fu fu fashion sense and megawatt charm, where we leave our rock star husband for another more famous rock star whereere we are hounded by paparazzi through terrible personal tragedy and where our awful turmoil leads to our own early death I am Miranda Sawyer and yes, this week on Talk nineties T Me, we are talking the fabulous writer, presenter and nineties tabloid catnip Paulis. And with me to discuss all things, Paula, I am delighted to welcome Guardian columnist Polly Hudson. Hello Pauli Hello. O, how do you feel about talking about Pauliates Well, I feel quite excited. And sad Yes. It's a real mixed emotion one, isn't it? I think it's quite interesting because I was like, okay, we definitely need to do her. She's a really brilliant character. She was absolutely all over the tablos. but because you know what happens that thing and her death could have been prevented, it's just really sad as well. And the ripple effect of obviously her daughter it is such a sad story. Yeah. But you forget how famous she was Yeah. and how fabulous she was. And how fabulous she was and what a trailblazer for women and How she lit up the screen, which is such a cliche, but looking back at a few old clips for this I'd really forgotten how kind of effervescent she was. And how she played it so well. She knew when to be smart, she knew when to be, you know, dum blonde. She was kind of everything, She was whatever the person in front of her needed her to be in that moment But in a really natural way that didn't seem calculated at all. Yeah. she was really, really great. okay So I've done weird research for this. She's written She wrote a lot of books, including rock stars in their underpants, which Andy Warhol praays great But she's also kind of, you know, I've read her autobiography, which is really interesting but quite kind of devastating and read around it anyway. I feel like before we get into her career, we should really lay the foundations of who she is or who she was because it's very she has a very strange background. I mean really, really unusual and odd Yeah. because I think that, you know, the reason why I want to go into it is because I think that people just thought, okay she's a bit because she seems a bit like an archetype, which is Ph private school girl who likes a bit of rough. Do you know what I mean? And she really wasn't that. She has this really weird childhood. She's born in april nineteen fifty nine. She's the only daughter of st on Sunday presenter Jess Yates and a bluebell girl called Elaine Smith who was known as Hela Torren and is now known as Elene Thornton and is a writer, right So Jes Yates was a kind of producer and he was involved in like the early James Bond films and he produced these mad kind of biblical epics with victim mature and lead roles. I mean, mad nonsense Fantasy films, right? He's much older than his wife. He's thirty five, He meets her at a beauty contest she's nineteen, right 's Pauliet's mumy is like this statuesesque, absolutely gorgeous redhe, you know, amazing. So they moveved to a village near Londudo. I mean, it's just it's so nuts. They move to this tiny village. when she's twenty and they run this huge hotel which she hates's called apologies to Welsh people. My pronunciation will be terrible. Duni, I think castle hotel, right? So she has to run it all because he's basically what is then called a manic depressive. So he suffers from bipolar. and He because of that, he's given various drugs, including lithium, which does calm him down, but it means that he's basically like kind of a zombie for most of the day. and then when the lithium wears off, he I mean, I'm really sorry about this because it is funny. He plays Wagner until four o'clock in the morning on a Wirl'ser organ I mean, Yes mental? Yes. I mean, it's not your average childhood. I mean, it's really kind of weirdly gothic. L they after they're in this hotel, they move to this huge house that is completely filthy that's never cleaned and Cer is born and is Her dad is very devoted to her but thinks that something really bad is going to happen to her. So when he's in the house and she's in the house, she has to sit in a box while he's playing the Wirlitzir. Now I've read that a few times sat in a box. that's not a sentence you read every day She sat in a bo I mean, ye, it's comical. It's also it's child abuse? Yeah, it's like awful. It's really awful. Yeah. It's like, oh, it was a different time, a time of child abuse. Yeah. exxactly. She literally has to sit in this box while she's while she's very, very young And later on, she has nightmares about somebody putting the putting the lid on the l. Yeah, you know, I mean, just really awful. anyyway She is scared of her diet, I would say, because of these situation. Yeah. And she's devoted to her mum but at a certain point in her when she's still quite young, her mum basically thinks I can't handle this and goes off to create her own career, which one might think, fair enough, time she doesn't take her with her and Paula is Every time her mum comes back is incredibly needy as you would be as a small child, will sleep outside her mum's room. I don't think her mum and dad was sleeping together so they were like outside her mum's room like a little puppy waiting for I mean, it's just absolutely. I mean, you can see the sort of damage being done. Oh my god. It's cards being dealt for everything that would transpire. Yeah. and she kind of throws herself into Because they have so many weird things in their house, he's constantly one of the things her dad is constantly doing is she says in her autobiography is smashing the tey. So what will happen is that he sees something on the tey. He hates it, he smashes it. But then he just goes around in another room replaces the tey because he's got loads of teies. like it's nuts. It's a nuts childhood. And she goes and sits in another kind of small building. where she has copies of Vogue and old copies of an American magazine that had that Norman Rotwell Oh pictures on the front, which is essentially Beautiful. Perfect family. Perfect families. And these are her escape. This is where she goes to in her head I mean, you know, it is a really she writes about it really hilariously in her autobiography because she is a very funny person. But all the time I was reading it, I was like, o my God. Wow. yeah. This is just Ara And she goes to school and of course she goes to school, she's immediately designated a weirdo because she comes from such a weird back youair not Eactly. And she is like teas and humiliated and she's anorexic at eight. Wow. And she's hospitalized for it. I mean just I mean, I can't it's really, really difficult. Yeah. And then essentially when she's around eleven or twelve thats career kind of It starts again And you know as it would, whyy would anyone not employ a guy who liks to play the wher in the middle of the night with his child in a box? I mean kicking the available for hire, fighting off the offers. But he wasn't say he was, off course he was. He becomes an executive and star with Yorkshire Television and he produces and presents shows like so he produces shows like Junior Showtime, but he presents stars on Sunday, which is this mad show where really cheesy stars kind of talk about God and sing songs, it's really odd It's very weird thing Anyway he's the presenter becomes very famous, right? Right So Paula and her mum leave. They go to Malta and then they go to Malljorkca and Her mum, who is incredibly attractive, moves to Malta because she want she sees a politician she quite fancies and then manages to find out where he lives and kind of just, you know disports herself inont his in front of him in her sports car and they start having an affair Jermy And so it was set. She's like, this is how you get a man. You see him, you set your sights and you go for it. And you know It worked for her all her life. It's absolutely nuts. anyway. I mean, all of her childhood is just kind of nut anyway. She then at fifteen is sent home to well sent home I mean to England, I don't know if we want to call that her home. but she's sent to Oxford she study for three A levels in a six four college. She passes the exams right. Okay. She then goes to as she would do, Telly. Telly's designed for people like her. Yeah, I mean she works at Tems teelevision and then she does a bit of cleaning for wealthy bachelors and she goes to even in the evening she goes to punk clubs and she meets Bob Galldof And she's still really quite young She's mean nineteen, eighteen, nineteen.'s. He's a bit older, not N not awful olderike you may be twenty four, twenty five. And Bob Geldf at the time is in the Boontown Rats, which were a band that were I mean, they're called punk, but they're not really punk. They're kind of New Wave, I would say. They're like pop, New Wave and they have two huge hits. One is I don't like Mondays, which is massive and u This is kind of just pre that She's hanging around with him. She hangs around with him so much that the rest of the band call her the limpet because she's devoted to him and she decides that this guy ' her man and she kind of campaigns to get him. Yeah. And there's an element of that that is Amazing And there's an element that I find incredibly heartbreaking Yeah, but you can see how she's looking for her escape. She's looking for her Norman Rockwell painting ending, happy ending family ending. I mean odd that she chooses kind of a punk rocker to go with not famously the most stable No, but there's also like a kind of anti establishment element to him and Bob Geldolf is really I have to say, you know I've interviewed Bob Goldolf, He's really charismatic. Right. Like like as of course she is. like she's he's like a force of nature. Like when I interviewed him, I felt like you know, the advert the old tape advert where your hair is being c like he's like that It's so funny because you don't think of it in this context, you don't think of him like this. He's kind of the villain of this story, if you will, although eventually comes good in a really heroic way. But he's the I mean Although we're not at that point yet spoiler alert, he's the husband she leaves. Yeah and you know, the the Thorn in her side. Yeah, and I think what it is apparely is honestly, he's hugely charismatic and he's also massively anti establishment. And like he was known within so he kind of grew up in Dublin. He had a difficult background himself. His mum died when he was really young, hisis dad was never around. He was essentially brought by his sisters. But very, very early on in the Boomown Rat's career, he goes onto kind of national television absolutely breaks the Catholic Church. There are nuns in the audience and he breaks them. and he's like a call to arms. right Like absolutely massive within Ireland. There's something about him that is that. so I can see that you know, he is charismatic. Yeah, absolutely without a doubt. and he's also very sure. And if you're someomebody who provides a kind of security If somebodys saying we've doing this and we're doing it now. and this is how it's going to be done. You're like, great. Yeah. Thanks. I don't have to make any decisions. You know what I mean And I think that's kind of what he was for her like a two whirlwinds. And anyway they are together, they stay together and she embarks on a different kind of career. One of the things that Bob Geldolf always did with her was he would tell her, I mean, I think A partly because you know he was known for being quite tight with money, that he wanted her to have a career. but I don't think it's You know He wanted to bring into the money into the household, but also I just think he like thought, look at her. Yeah. ye. whyy would this absolutely brilliant woman not have a career? Yeah, you did get the sense that he wasn't threatened by her by her B her success, by her anything. He wanted her to fly. Yeah. Exactly, deffinitely that. And she She because of her dad had being this presenter and stars on Sunday am she one of the first things she did to be honest is actually ped a penthouse because it's like, o daughter of Yes Sunday religious Sunday guy kind of thing, but you know, she makes money and she gets She gets a column in reccord mirror. a music journalist, which is really, you know good. And then she writes rock stars in their independence. I mean rights. don't write it She writes it, she takes all the photographs herself. Oh, I didn't know that.. Yeahah, yeah, she goes it back She goes around and she takes it often on kind of pololaroids. I think this is why Andy Warhol likes it. He describes it this book which is published in nineteen eighty, he describes it as the greatest piece of art in the last decade I absolutely love brilliant. And he requests a sign copy which he treasures forever Isn't that amazing? I mean also I love, I saw her doing an interview about it and they were saying to whyy this book and she Just says I wanted to see loads of rock stars in their underpants I mean, yeah, why not? So I did this. Yeah., fair enough. And also she's got the kind of access because Geldolf is, you know, a door open into also you know, she's friends with Jan Jaran and like, you know And you too, and you know lots of kind of people via that, but also because that's who she's knocking around with and she's incredibly seductive and charismatic person. Yeah, really. know I imagine she would have been hard to say no to. Oh my Godd. Yeah. I mean, look at her, she's so Charming. Yeah. She really is. I mean, they're both charismatic, but she's Bob Guoldf is like a force and she's just incredibly seductive. Yes. She's like Amazing with people I She's like known as flirting with everyone. Somebody said in one of the things that I read that she like flirts withen, she flirts with women. Yes. She flirts with kittens. Yeah She flirts with anything. Yes, know tables. Y anything. anything. Completely.. reallyally see that and get a sense of that. Yes. Yeah. And she did. so she think she did like commercials She does one for Ford, she does one for non alcoholic wine long alongside Oliver Reid. I because she was famously te tootal in those days, which is at odds with how things went. But also and stay with me here, she was almost the Kim Kardashian of her day. She's a brand. She's not pigeonholed, Doing so many different things, there are so many different products Didn't she she did underwear or something. Yeah, she did like later on, she definitely does a fragrance. A fragrance. Exactly. which she iss like, you know, it's pre Brittney. Exactly, you know? She's forging away That wasn't what people did. and so many of the interviews that people are trying to say, but what are you, but what are you? And she's saying, I'm all these things. Yeah, it's really interesting because I do think At the time, I mean, this carried out right all the way through the nineties that you were told to kind of stay in your lane. Yeah. It was very weird even for like Bob Geoldolf to say I think we should be doing some charity work. The only reason why he was allowed to do that was because it was still a record. Yes. Do you know what I mean? And then he kind of moved into another world. But she was doing so many different things. She really was a funny writer, like a great writer.. And she's obviously incredibly attractive. She's verys her own style. Yes. And she's a brilliant interviewer. So she's lots of different things really. but I think that yeah, you're right. peopleople wanted you to be one thing. likeike why can't you sing or something? Yeah somethingomething that we understand. We don't know what to make of you and we can't take it in that a woman could be at home being a mother but also photographing a rock star in their underpants and also you know, telling us writing a funny column about something completely nothing to do with either of those things. Yeah. It's like a woman having three thoughts simultaneously, Unbelievable the hell I dying time and being attractive is going on This episode is brought to you by Red Finn You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking Maybe even scrolling homelistings on Redfin saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin. com own the dream Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy moocha Rappuccino drink? or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe? orr a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Rappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries Experience a membership that backs what you're building with American Express Business Platinum two times membership rewards points per dollar on eligible purchases in key business categories as well as on each eligible purchase of five thousand dollars or more. O up to two million dollars in eligible purchases per calendar year. American Express Business Platinum. There's nothing like it Terms apply. Learn more at Americanxpress d. com slash businessinessash platinum. I really come across Paulie eight. I mean, this is all pre nineties, but I cannot. We need to We need to set that scene is in when she prs a tube, right, that's nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty seven, right? Completely great. Honestly, I mean both her and Jules Holland are completely great. Great. At the time, it's like live show that's done in Newcastle, which is quite important and they they have bands on. So the bands have to go up to Newcastle to be filmed, which is quite unusual at the time. Yeah. And it was like the hip is so unhip isn't it? but anyway, don't really know what to say? cool. The cool kind of music show and there was nothing like it before. Everything that came afterwards, everything came in the nineties like the word and everything that was really based on the tube. And the two presenters were so unusual. So Geores Holland was very dry. you know now he's a national figure, isn't he? But like at the time, he was very unusual, kind of dry And she was just this immensely gorgeous, funny Turkey M you know blonde who was really good at her job And like she would do really funny things so like sometimes she would just get it wrong. And I remember her once doing an interview. I can't remember who was It might have been Sting or someone. And she got hot in the studio and so she started taking her jacket off, but her microphone was on her jacket. unt her voice would kind of go off. but she looked absolutely great and she was really you know, it's quite hard to be a telepisenter. I've done it. It's really difficult. She was really good on that show. She was. She was pregnant with Sfy. It was quite unusual Yeah on like a If you're going with that. Young music show for someone to be Yeah You know, not hiding away pregnant, but just like, yes, I'm pregnant and also able to do a job. Yeah. and also like kind of being pregnant dressed in kind of tools. Gally mean kind of amazing. She had this blonde hair that was At the time, you know, it was quite eighties, It was very bleach blonde and it was kind of swept up at the back and stuck up in the air. And she would tie like little rags around it quite banana armory. And she would wear, I mean, it's quite Lily Ellen, I have to say, she would wear gowns that almost look like nineteen fifties ball gowns. I mean, she didn't wear trainers, but she was kind of playing with an old idea of conventional beauty. with that normal Rockwell idea of what a mother should look like. Yeah, ye And she looked like a punk version. I that she wore kind of two big jackets. She looked great. Yes. She was always so stylish and red lips and just a look. I mean, You knew who it was If she passed by in a blur. she had Yeah, yeah, that's true. When you say her name, you think of it. Yeah. And I think that what happened with that was like for me, I just thought it was amazing because it was it hit you know the right time in my life when I was interested in music and it just seemed really fantastic. But if you as a presenter who looks like that and is interviewing pop stars, you have to remember that at the time representers would always look down on that because they would see it as not serious, you know as something to be sniffed at somehow. So even if you're really, really good at that job, which obviously she is It's not a serious job somehow. in a way like I now I think it would be taken a lot more seriously, but back then it really wasn't, you know. I mean, she made it look effortless. That was the problem. And of course it's not. and we've all seen people do it really badly and then you appreciate the skill. Yeah. But she just Yes, she just She just breezed in. Yeah, she was really, really good. Anyway. So while this is going on, the tube is nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty seven. She has Fi in must been nineteen eighty three There are other things that happen too major things that happen is Live Aid, nineteen eighty five. Yeah. Obviously organized by her husband Bob Geldf. She is involved in like if you watch any of the documentaries about her, she's there all the time. Yeah for it is Charles and Diana and Bob and Paul are together. that's. suchuch an iconic foresome. Yeah, isn't it? And it's also really funny because later on, obviously there's a kind of very famous quote where she bumps into Lady Die Princess Die in a kind of shop in Kensington. Diana says to her, well, the thing that's really great about you is that if I see you on the front co of the tabloids, I think oh, I've got to day off I mean The parallels between them. Oh don't. start crying. Big marriage that we were massively invested in that then breaks down. I mean, even their hair sort vaguely similar. Yeah, it's like a punk Diana. Anyway, so that's obviously very, very huge Live aid. and Bob Geldorf and Madjur and everyone involved in it should be congratulated. I know we think of them as white Saviors now, but they raise absolutely loads of money. and I think that's amazing anyway They also get married They get married in Vegas and then there's kind of another I think there's another wedding here as well. And there's a kind of very famous, quite iconic photograph of her and she's wearing a It's great. It's like lace. It looks like a normal wedding dress, but it's bright red. Yes. so cool. And then she's surrounded by men Because of course she's poorly a. So B Girl's lookingking about Bob God. There's like every member of Juran Jian and Mudjior and like stuff like that, you know, like Bowie and people like, you know, it's just it's a really great photo, isn't it And she looks like she's Hving the time of her life. W it also it's like, yeah, it's marriage and it's a conventional thing, but I'm doing it my way, I'm doing it on my terms and I'm doing it in my style Yeah gain it felt she made something sort of boring and traditional, cool and exciting and almost sort of rebellious. Yeah. ye. And she wanted to get married. know she was very keen on getting married. And there's a big aspect of Paulie Yates, which is Is that normal in Rockwell?. So she wanted to be married, she wanted to live in a lovely home and she wanted to give her children a lovely, lovely childhood. And that would involve, you know, like she invested loads of time into Christmases and would make them sparkly and as beautiful as she could do. She was always dressing her girls in very cub matching, matching kind of like quite very feminine little outfits. like Victorian chocolate box children. Yes, exactly like that. you know, there's an investment in that belief family, you know, and she's still relatively young to ha having these children, you know, having her children. It's interesting to me because I think that if you characterizeed call it Like if you called her something different, if you called her an English eccentric which is what she is. Yes, yes. People would maybe have a bit more time for her because she's not like posh, posh You know, if she'd been pushed, push I think she would have been given maybe some of that Yeah in status, you know? Yeah. because she was criticised from all angles at all times. I mean, obviously it got worse after the marriage ended But It felt like, you know, when you look back to remind yourself of what that time was like, there are very few Pace is praising her or people praising or not even praising her, appreciating her It's very much and maybe, you know It's more controversial, it's more interesting to have a kind of hot take on everything she's done wrong. but goodness. ye. She's not hardly doing anything bad. I mean by today's standards, she's fine. And she's married. Yeah Eactly She's got a career. Exactly. for you down with that kind of thing. Y. The thing that I thought was quite nice when you watched some of the interviews, the ones that are really sweeter are actually with Terry Wogan. He's always really nice her. Y. They were good teased him and he obviously loved it. Yeah. they had a nice dynamic, didn't they? And you sort of forget how massive he was three times a week, wasn't he in his day. Yeah, that was a big deal for her to be on there and to be on there so regularly and to be almost his kind of Grandfatherly approval Yeah. Hopefully that did some good in the opinion po I don'tember I dont think people just don't like women as so ye you dont like whatever makes you patch. Yes, exactly. Especially an outspoken woman. Yes, a free spirited woman. that's the problem if you're doing it. The other thing that she did come into kind of a bit stick for was that she Because of her childhood and because she had young children, she really believed that you should be with your children a lot. And she would say that. Yeah. And she breastfed like for a long time. and She was very anti the idea of kind of like let let your child cry out Yeah think. She was very anti that. And I think people thought that that was maybe she was speaking from a privileged position. I think, you know, because she had a manny and all that Yeah, yeah. and I suppose they weren't expecting that from her like quite a traditional. Well What she was saying was feminism means choosing. And for me it's important to be a really hands on mum. And I think feminists felt a bit betrayed by that that she should have said, you know, I'm just going to have my kid and throw it into you know a kid farm. Exactly. and like give it to frying panners and fish fingers and get straight back to work and you know, I'm still me. And she was saying I am still me, but I'm doing this now for a bit. And that's okay. We are now coming into the ninetiesh. I know I'm aware We' we for a while, but I feel like we needed to kind of you know H. Yes. Okay in the nineties. The big thing that happens here in the nineties at the beginning is the big breakfast. Yeah the big breakfast is like a big thing in the nineties full stop. let's face it. It's a new show, a new breakfast show for channel four And there are loads of like different bids for it.'s like You know, a lot of different kind of companies are bidding for it. But Bob Geldorf's company, it's not just his company, it's run with other people Planet twenty four wins with their proposal, and that is the Big Breakfast, which is obviously hosted by Chris Evans who you know is an incredibly talented presenter I have my own problems with Chris Evans, but you know, like He's a great presenter. like he's undeniable on the big brak. O the big Re, really good. He really was. He is amazing and Weirdly the pilot is actually shot in quite a lot of it is shot in Bob and Paul's house Oh that's like a piler, you know. that makes sense. Yeah. And then they have and they have an interview section which is hosted by Paula And it's in Bed Rppula, you know, And it's a big bed, quite a big circular bed and you get really properly famous people on there, like Arnold Schwarzenegger You know, Kylie Minogu, you know, like proper she always said she would never interview somebody who is less famous than her. This's a cool mum. so brilliant because on the surface of it, it's her playing into her, I'm flirty, you're in bed with me. But there's obviously you know, for therapists they get you lying on the couch and you are much less guarded. As with everything with her, there's a little edge in there where she's like, I'm not as stupid as you think I am. And she did get great stuff out of people. Yeah. She's really good. She's a great interviewer. She's really great. And also there's loads of kind of like because it's the nineties and the nineties' like certain elements' a bit like a throwback to the seventies, you know because everybody grew up in the seventies, there's loads of innuendo. Yeah. You know what I mean? Of course, I mean, they're in bed. does really well, and I do think like if you were to go to YouTube and watch a lot of those interviews, they're really good. Yeah. She's really, really good at it. There's something about she gets the cololnel is people think about that person. And she manages to ask the question the viewer would want you to ask, but in a charming manner. So like I watched one with Tori Amos And she says, you know, people think you'll kind of want sandwich or of a p picnic. O you know, like she's very charming mind what were they? five minutes? Really short. Five, six minutes. it's early in the morning. Early in the morning Lying down, life, live What she got was incredible. I mean, after she left, she leaves and she gets replaced by various people. I becausecause I did a bit of telep presenting, I was asked to amongst very loads and loads of people to audition for a role. I think it was that role. Wow. I was rubbish Like it's really hard. I mean, It's really hard to whoo did follow Vanessa Fell? So no, first of all, it was Lily Savage. Okay. And then it was Vanessa Fhels, B bothoth of him great. Yeah. but yeah, I mean, I have to say No one no was good her. anyyway, she's really, really good. and obviously that gives another kind of bolster to the kind of Bob and Pauler success, I suppose, really. You know, he's now a successful was it seen, I can't remember. Was it seen as that she'd only got the job because it was his company? Was there talk of that? I don't remember I don't remember that. I mean, maybe but because she was good, nobody minded. Yeah Do you know what I mean there wasn't just maybe I'm remember more about myself. I'm just expecting that there probably was. Yeah, I mean, she never got really good I to say No. Okay. so I feel like we should talk a little bit about Bob and Paula's relationship. in there's been documentaries out, you know over the last couple of years. There was an interview that was done with Rupert Everett very recently. Basically there were affairs going on. Yes, includcluding she had an affair with Rupert Everett, which I think, I mean, that's quite impressive. And he was really in love with her and wanted to marry her. Yeah. I mean, this is a very, very gay man I mean, what else do you need to know about her powers of seduction He turned a gay man straight briefly.. And I hats off And he was great. I love Rupert Ere kind of full stop. but anyway he was absolutely, you know. But also like Terce Trent Darby. gorgeous. He was like the man of the timepe, like the sex symbol. Yeah. Yeah. and isn't there a famous story where he's in a hotel and Bob Geldolf comes to the hotel unannounced and says, come down and see me and says, Are you nobbing my wife And he just lies and says that he isn't No Wh. I mean, I would say the sameaint Bob. Yeah my go God angry Bob Goldolf, I would not mess with. No I would just deck you. No. But I mean, again I' deck you. He would annihilate you with these words, I have to say. Especially after liive aid, he will saint Bob and he could do no wrong And we wanted this image of this perfect family. So everything that we know now that there were affairs going on, that it was not, I mean shock horror. It was not a perfect relationship you could have guessed Yeah, and I think, you know, well relationships aren't perfect, are they? But they were I mean, on one level, they were incredibly devoted to each other. They were married, they were solid I mean, I think If you, you know, some of the reading that I've done around it, it did seem that when it came to the kids, Paula did a lot of it. Yes. So she was up very, very early because she had to write columns and do the big breakfast and ensure that the kids were at school. And I think a lot of the Yeah. everyday reality of the kids when they were little fll to her Yeah and that Bob wasn't quite in sync with that that he slept late and he didn't really deal with any of that stuff until I mean, you know, obviously he did when they were older. He really, really did. I mean, he does come good. It's so important to remember that. But I mean that story makes me want to scream like she's up Writing a comment with one hand, cooking breakfast with the other and he's like having a nice life.ing. Okay. Yeah, exactly. Different times. Anyway, so that's the kind of situation They were of the time, couple goals. Yeah. They were one of the couples that we you thought they they would never split up Yeah and also it's just really not for me generally in life and I'm not just thinking about them. I really like it when you have couples that have characters, they are characters separately. You know these people are individually, incredibly interesting flawed, intelligent kind of trailblazing. these people are interesting separately. So when they're together, you're like, this is great, yes, especially because you know for some characters, if they're like that, they just have very mute act you know To have two very interesting people together, I just love that. And it makes you admire them more that they've chosen someone rather than someone that they can be superior about and I'm the star of this relationship. someomeone that's gonna G as good as they get. Yeah, the stimulate Yes ye, exactly. Okay. so if you were to read things and this is all kind of post, obviously their breakup Paula is not as happy as we would like her to be. Yes. you and me. We want her to be happy. She's got three kids, she's got a great career. She's got a lovely husband. We want her to be happy. She is not And from about ninety three, there is an idea that she would like to break away from Bob that she thinks he's This is a quote from a book. and it this is what she supposedly says, I do not know if she did. says, He's the most controlling person I know. I liked it when I was in my twenties. I thought it meant that I was being taken care of. I liked the stability it brought me. Bob made me feel safe. He always knew the answer for everything His word was the word of God which so like what she's saying is that he was really certain and she was uncertain. But that can be very difficult. you know, if you change as you get older It can be hard to deal with and she felt I think from all evidence that she felt a bit crushed Yeah I mean, it makes It just makes such sense. That is the sort of thing that you would maybe be more into in your twenties, like he's so sure and I'm just being swept along with him. then Once you are writing a column and making the breakfast with the other hand and he's in bed and then he's telling you how things are, donon't think so.act. So anyway, she and you know, they have both I mean, you know, Bob too, I think, as far as I know, has had first and like so it's not People have relationships, they have affairs, whatever. Maybe they had an arrangement, we don't know. We just don't know. We don't know anyway. It doesn't seem like anyone was being particularly discreet. No Really, you know. And also one of the things that Rupert Eret said, which is what drew him and Paula together was that they both just love drama They just liked drama and excess and like you that. No, It just really makes me laugh anyway On their fridge, very, very famously there is a picture of who was there picture of . Michael Hutchs, who's leading of in Ncess and is known for having corrupted our Kylie and you know, is didn't Bob Goldolf write on it all sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she you know, I mean to be honest, I don't mind the se word. It's my language. I don't mind I' fn after I said it. It's so succinct. What other words But also that was written on it. and then I think she replaced it and it probably wrote on again, but then she put fairy lights around it. I mean again, not discreet. No just think she's gd. Here's who I fancy. Yeah Watch out. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, at some point You know, there is arguments as to when this happened. you know it is generally assumed that when she does an interview with Michael Hutchins on the in Bedwward Pault section, which she's ninety four, that this kicks off their relationship. I think that's wrong. I think they were having There are so many conflicting reports. I think they were possibly together before that People say they're together before that and I think that's probably true, but I don't want it to be true. You want be k off by that. becausecause there's some quote from someone that says when they first had sex about five minutes after that interview. I've watched that interview. You know sometimes you remember things from long ago,' very shocking and then you see it with your twenty twenty six eyes and you're like, o, come on I've watched that interview and my goodness hot it. I was blushing. It's fore playay and it's Everything that we just said, it's first thing in the morning, but oh my God. The legs are intertwined, their faces are inches from each other It is hot. It's really hot and she's leading him And she's talking about Helena Christensen, his current girlfriend supermodel. Yeah. we have to like I cannot tell you how beautiful Helena Christian is in the nineties. I mean unbelievable She's like the she's literally the most beautiful woman in the world has she got Paula's spark? Well, I don't know, I don't think it has. You can see he's like,, you know, he's fired up by her. He's definitely mesmerized by her. I do remember reading a long time ago A Jules Holland interview where he said that were he was having dinner with Paula and Michael, and he was pretty convinced that they were actually shagging while we were . Which is pretty like, I mean, I'm like, fair enough Fair enough but I don't want tona be at that dinner with. But he's good He's do Yeah he's anyway. It is an incredibly intense affair. Oh my God the chemistry. And also but even that, because The whole narrative at the time was he's had every you know supermodels and Kylie and he's, you know chosen, he could have had anyone and he's chosen this like mum of three. And then you look back, she was thirty five. They make it sound like she was seventy and like in rollers with a rolling pin, you know, unbelievable. The sexiest mum ever She's just mull milth. Yeah. absolutely. She's just completely good. They have this really, they definitely have an intense affair and it's very difficult for both of them to leave their partners. It just is. You know, this is your family. Yeah Father of your children. The father of your children, like is she's not an idot, She knows she's going to be absolutely slated for it. You know, he is withna Christensen. She's the most beautiful woman in the world. Th doesn't seem like a massively safe bet, does he? You're going leave your husband for someone I just think sounds like the fireworks in the bedroom were quite hard to resist. I mean, when you read that it is And obviously with the way it turns out, it's so Romeo and Juliet. the way she talks about it, we'd waited our whole lives to meet each other. And then we did and it was everything we dreamed it would be and more Yeah, it's just It's kind of in a moment Anyway. It is difficult because I think that she in order for Paula to get the courage to leave Bob, I would say that she probably does need to think that he is going to be by her side But that's not to say that she wouldn't have let up anyway. I mean, it really isn't. Yeah. know, It seemed like she had kind of got to a point where that relationship was going to end Michael Hutchy was definitely available. to her, but he equally was in another relationship with somebody who was really, really nice. So it's a difficult, difficult situation. anyway. There's all sorts of to and froes, you know, breaking up, getting back together, breaking up, getting back together She's when they are together, they're very lovely Dovey, but he's off, you know being an international rock star kind of thing U Anyway, in the beginning of ninety five In february nineteen ninety five, there is basically a tabloid breakup. It is announced. And what had happened was that essentially, which often happens at that time, is that the tabloids had found out about Paula and Michael and that they were going to print something. And in order to for that not to happen, Bob and Paul are basically do a joint stay Yeah. and that was going to be released to the press on Monday. It's news to the world that was the story was going to come out on the Sunday and it's essentially they got pictures of Michael and Paula leaving the Hulkin Hotel in Knightsbridge together And obviously he's still with Helena. it's just I mean, it's all a complete disaster and it comes out. And I remember actually because'm there's an element of me that's completely naive, I have to say. like, I can't help it. I am who I am. I was shocked. I like, Oh my God. And I remember reading the story, I was like, they were Not like your mum and dad, but they were well God, you wish they were your mum and dad. They were like your cool mum and dad. Yeah They just seemed like they were in it for the long haul. Yeah. It was shocking. It is shocking. I mean, it's such a parasocial thing, isn't it? that we feel that we know them and we know the marriage and we wanted it to be a certain way and we wanted it to last forever. And it didn't. And for it to be so messy as well, so many other people involved Obviously extremely painful for all involved When it was so like amazing gossip? I'm sorry anyyway They do this announcement, but even then they're like it's they're really not sure And actually they think maybe we'll try and make it work again. He goes back to Helena. She she goes off to Bono's house with Bob it's like, o, oh my go, youve got Bono mediates. Yeah, like so she goes off there. they also go off to Jamaica to stay in Chris Blackwes's mothers house You know, I mean, it's mad anyway. It is a bit of a disaster and you know, in the kind of, you know lust love affair that they have, they can't resist each other and they end up going to this hotel, which is called Chileston. And in the Chileston hotel, it's booked under Michael's name. They go down to have dinner and a journalist she knows, comes over to her and goes, Do you realize that every single person in this room other than you, is a journalist Oh s. I mean, I think that's a tip off Under his name went down to have dinner notot the actions of people hiding particularly, No And anyway So they go back up to the room I hope to have lots of great sex. I'm sure. And then in the morning they try and get up very early and it's just paparazzi, a goo. and in order to get to the car Michael loses his temper and I think thumps one of them, pushes somebody over. It's just a bit of a disaster and of course that is like Ewhere. And the thing that's also happens at the same time, this is all published obviously in the tablelos is literally at the same week, Hello magazines,rint's a double page spread showing Michael and Helena in the South of France They always do that Hello there, don't they? It's like you have a beautiful kind of shot and that's it your relationship is done Yeah. ye, of course, the curse of hello. Yeah, deffinitely. Yeah, but also played into everything perfly because you've got Saint Bob and then you've got Michael out punching photographers, the bad boy lover C covered windows make your home feel up to twenty degrees hoter. 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We've got a new sound and a new feel, and we're recording closer to release time, so we're even more up to date on the stories that matter. But we're sticking to the same job, one that's even more important as the stakes get higher in British politics. Exploring the big stories Dispelling the bullshit and doing it all with a sense of humour. You need one these days. That's oh God what now with me, Andrew Harrison and the absolute eight team of Politics Punditry. Get it every Tuesday and Friday on your favourite podcast apps This week's Talk nineties Queen, Queen Jennifer Sawyer. Yes, Queen Jennifer, who is, as you may have guessed, my mum, is one of our fabulous Patreon members who's decided to invest some of my inheritance in her favourite nineties pod, even though she doesn't really know what we're talking about half the time. Anyway, now, she is this week's glorious Talk nineties quQeen Thank you, Queen Jennifer. Please enjoy your hourly intake of gin and dubonnet. 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You could also voicemail us there Now On with the show But do you think we should just have a bit of a word about the tabloids in the nineties? It's really hard to remember how powerful they were. Yeah. And they kind of set the agenda for a lot of things. They set the agenda for the government quite often. They absolutely set the agenda as to who was celebrated and who was not palatable and they they were mostly run Not entirely by any means. there were definitely women running tableaoiss in the nineties But there was a very masculine feel to tableaoiss in the nineties, weren't there? Yeah. And really, I mean the news of the world every Sunday, it was like, whose life is going to be ruined this week? There would be someone on the front page doing something they shouldn't have been doing being caught and the, you know the stings that they used to do, they used to people they had the fake shake who would get stories by Hooker by Crook, but also thing that you just talked about where it's like we've caught you Either we're going to tell your story or you can tell your story, but your story will be told. And they outed people terrible things. They had a kind of really conventional idea of what life should be. so you don't spit up a marriage You can't be gay Yeah. you know, you can't be like it was really, really old fashioned kind of attitudes especially around women, obviously. Yeah Also, We have to say They wouldn't have kept doing it if people weren't buying the papers and reading it and saying, Oh wasn't this terrible that they've done this? but reading every word and hanging on every word and wanting to know the gossip and the ins and outs of people's lives you know see people built up to be knocked down, etceta, etcet. She really, really gets it. It's really hard to explain how much she gets it. She gets it from women. She gets it from men. she gets it really bad. And there are some people that you can and again, parasocially, I didn't know her, I don't know any of these people, but that you can imagine can deal with it. It feels like she would have taken that really to heart. She's a sensitive person. She had a difficult childhood, she doesn't have that kind of self belief from a you know, grounded upbringing to fall back on. And she's wronged Saint Bob. She's wronged a saint. She's a scarlet woman. Yeah. And it's also like loads of things like this. Weirdly, you know, if you split up in those situations, there isn't that much money to go around she's constantly kind of trying to look for money as well, which is always a bit difficult. She gets sack from the big breakfast Oh. Yeah, because let twenty for that? Yeah yeah yeah. She loses her job at the bigig breakfast. That's awful. Yeah, it's pretty awful. Yeah, I mean a certain point she wanted to go to the Wd, which is another kind of telesh but that's also produced by Planet twenty four, which is obviously him. So she was going to go as a guest to Simon Le Bond. She arrives and they just ejected her out. because they're like, you have wronged our Boss. you're not allowed to write Anyway. So she doesn't have loads of money. I just really want to emphasize that, you know you have a situation where she had been earning, a lot of these things are taken away from her The divorce hasn't gone through. There's no settlement. you know she's got to find somewhere to live There's a sense that she doesn't really want to take loads of money off Michael Hutchins, you know, all that anyway She goes through a kind of glam bit. She basically gets her boobs done. Yeah. She gets caps on her teeth, she gets hair extensions. And you know She obviously women should do whatever they want with a appareance and there's a sense of freedom Having a gl think. Having a glower. So she gets a glower, but these things cost money. Yeah, obviously. And then quite Soon after that GQ publishes an interview with or a picture of Helena Christenson and it says, Would you trade her in for Paula Yates G the misogyny, the misogyny and I want to say this would never happen today but I'm afraid I I don't think I can. And no, I don't think you can but the one thing I would say is it be jumped on by the internet in the way that it wasn't then You you know what I mean? She does, you know, she's trying to get some money, she's trying to see what she can do. She writes her autobiography, which I would recommend. It's a really good read. She writ it in three weeks That's my goal. Wow, it's serializing the sun You know, she gets some money. so that's quite good. But then also she goes on Clive Anderson. he completely destroys her. She goes on haveave I got news for you? Oh my go. It's awful. I remember that at mean time. that was horrible. And she even at byy the end, she's saying, Ian stop being so horrible to me. please, you're being really unkind. Yeah call she calls him the Sperm of the devil, which is quite funny. I mean, the thing is I like Ian his a lot. Yeah L I really do. like I think he's but it's so weird at that time. peopleeople are so You know, I don't know if it's completely different time, but to attack a woman for her personal choices in her relationships was completely fine Yeah like it was like fine. and to attack her for having her a breast enhancement Absolutely fine Lack it signing How about them? An anyway. anyway She becomes pregnant with Michael which is, you know, great. they have a they are about to have a lovely child. but they are in a difficult situation in terms of their relationship. We don't quite know where they're going to live It's all a bit of a disaster. Michael appears to be having on and off things with other women. Anway, you know, it's difficult. I think It's just all difficult. It's really, really, really so complicated. and also What must it have been like, you know, she's had an affair with him and she's, you know, they're meeting in hotels and it's all sexy and forbidden. And then, you know, She's cooking the dinner for her three kids. O course. That's not so sexy. Yeah. and you apparently he was good with I mean, you absolutely great with the kids, but he's also still a rock star. It's really hard to explain he's an international rock star. And he's younger. Yeah, he's young. Yeah. And he's never been married. he's never had any children. I interviewed him, which I will come to. and I asked him, haveave you ever been trooked and he wentn't know something Yeah, of course snap You know, so She lands to her credit. I mean, although people don't like the sun, she lands like a really big deal with the sun. it's like a hundred grand column. so that she can support herself, which is pretty good. But they go and you know, it's a tough legal case between her and Bob where are they going to live? whoo's gonna to get the house, bl blah blah. And it ends up with a really weird situation where Michael Hutchins has a house in London and Bob is still in the old house that he and Paula had and she was renting somewhere else. And actually what happens is that Michael and Paul move into the old house and Bob moves into Michael's house n' that mad? So I was very is it? Well, it's kind of more modern, ye. I mean, it's a good but it also shows that they really did want to kind of try and work it out, try and compromise. You can't imagine many men moving into the house of the bloke who's stolen your wife. I think good for him. Yeah have to say also one of the reasons why that happened was they were in court. trying to decide about houses and custody and stuff like that. And again, Paula was being absolutely dragged over the coals and she was in bits and crying. And Bob said, this cannot happen. like we need to sort this out. Yeah. So they sorted it out. It's such a creative solution. Yeah, exactly. it's very good. Anyway, Heavenly Harani, Tiger Lily Hutchins now she's now Hutchins Galed off is Like now today.. the Th is Hutchins is born twenty second of july nineteen ninety six A few things that happen quite soon after that that are quite difficult. but the main thing that happens is that Pauler and Michael go to Australia with tigularily to I think, introduce her to the So his family, so it's like, you know, that kind of situation. and while they're away there is a drug rate on there house and drugs are found in a smart tube. Yeah. And there are all sorts of stories around this as far as I can see I mean, there's no doubt that there is no doubt because I know this because He like offered me Coke, right. Definitely Michael Hutson stalk drugs, right? No, know, so did a lot of people. Yes. you take drugs and have a family life as long as you keep everything apart. But it's annoying because it's such a gift to all the naysayers to put it in the smarties tube, it's just exactly Yeah peopleople And I don't know if it was in a smartage. Was it in a smartage? Because the case never goes to court. Yeah. So we don't know. And that's the thing. Yeahah, it's such a great story. It's become true whether it was true or not. But perfect analogy for You know, yeah, they were endangering their children. Yeah. and there's also some photographs and the photographs of very soury photographs of them in like black latex. I think she might have been pegging him and everything. Th then these are discovered and' then circulated I think printed in various publications. Yeah. And I think that all these things I mean when you're in Australia, there's nothing you can do be further away. be further away. and there is There are questions as to how this was discovered, whether this was an inverted commass planted. You could have all those things and then be very, very far away from the kids, you know locked up somewhere or whatever. If that happens, social services become involved, the police become involved.. It doesn't go to court in the end. The police are basically told to back off. So nothing happens. The CPS want people to kind of press charges and it doesn't happen. So it doesn't get to caught. Anyway, it's just yeah, that is the twenty sixth of september nineteen ninety six and there's a custody kind of case going on at the time. and obviously this does not play that well. No It doesn't play that well But actually, the custody situation is half and half Right. So that's the situation Oh dear, these things are very difficult. Okay, so we get to ninety seven. In nineteen ninety seven, in Ecess are kind of making a comeback. and I know this because I interviewed Michael Putchins. He's incredibly fun. I cannot tell you how much fun he is. He's really great. So he's there. It's in Paris It's with the band The band God loveove them and nice are really boring. Yeah. What band? mean I a band. I interview all of them. Oh no. I'm nice, Puny. It doesn't go into the piece. I'm sure yeah, exactly, and I'm I'm sure they're used to it a little bit. The band agreees. Anyway, we go out for two nights. The first night we go out and I mean he's just hilarious. He literally does the canam. He's so fun. He's a bit drunk I would assume, I mean, definitely offered me Coke and I said no. you know, I have to say, you know, on certain occasions, I might have said yes, but just for whatever reason I said no. I would say Yeah, sore using chemically enhanced And he had a lighter. And the lighter was a present from Pauler on the lighter, it was a zippo. It was engraved. You're perfect, please fuck me. Wow, I know. And also I thought it was quite interesting that he showed at me Yeah, and you showed me a picture of Tigily O I wonder what you were going to be showing a picture of him. It was tig being pegged. It was Tiger liily. and then he just kind of whsed off and I left holding this picture of the baby. just said I don't want to lose it, please. But he was really social and really fun, really charismatic. honestly, he's lovely Yeah. Re lovely person. L I really enjoyed his company. Okay good. I don't want him to be some arrogant twat. No no, no, no, was just like he was fun on a stick, like Yeah. And anyway, we do the interview and everything and then the next day and he's like, okay, you know, like I'm going to Les Bandouche, which is just really cool. club in in Paris because it's even her Sgov'sirday and I'm like okay, and hees, do you want to come? I'm Okay And I'm likeing jeans and he was like and he was going to get changed. but he said this is how nice he is because he could he said, yeah, come And I was a bit embarrassed. And he was like, fine, I won't get changed then So he was going to get change and he didn't so that I would feel a little bit more He was an ally to women. Yeah, he was great. And then we went to this mad party. Wow. It was full of very very tiny super like models who don't say anything. And sushi which no one eats apart from me because you said no to no. Yeah birthday cake that they kind of waffed and waed out nobody es. But anyway, at this party, Helena Christensen turns up Yeah And she's absutely I cannot tell you how beautiful she is. She's ridiculous looking. She's in China blue, she looks amazing. And it is the thing that really struck me was it these are human beings. So she arrives, she looks amazing. they're both kind of like and like They are reacting like you or I would react if an ax had come in and who would left us. You know So you're laughing a little bit too brightly. fantastic, you know, and you notice how far I look, you know it's like that. And then they She leaves and then she comes back And they have a very serious conversation together. I remember looking at it and thinking She's really hurt Like this is proper, this is people's lives. You know, like we're talking we're talking about it now and it was discussed in the tabloids, but these are real people. She was She looked pretty devastated and he was being really nice to her. but it was like, this is a real situation L is proper There are hard forget That's such an important point because you do forget when it's playing out in the tabloids and it's a soap opera and whose side are you on and what do you think? And yeah, you do forget that they are real people. And even in the Kylie documentary, the Netflix thing that just came out, the way she speaks about him and he obviously led her a Merry dance, shall we say, but she still broken. Yeah But also speaking there's not many men that I mean, he's He's cheating on all these women, but they're all still speaking very highly of him Yeah, there's something. He's treating women sort of terribly but well. Yeah. He's good at treating them badly. He's never He's friends with all his exes, you know. That says something. Yeah. I mean, you know, we were all there crying at the funeral. Yeah. like anyway, he was like I really liked him. Anyway, I write this piece for the observer and you know like this is not my doing Absolutely not my doing. On the front page of the magazine that it's on, it says something like, you know, sex God, d d d d so why Puler I did not write that. Of course not. You never write the headlines. No Why don't people know that you never write the headlinines? Oh my go. No. Yeah, it's like' like, you know, this is for the observer. it's Broad street Anyway Well, now you've had the chance to Yeah. It's like, o my God, anyway So at the end of ninetight seven in November Basically the idea was that Michael and Paula were going to go to Australia for Christmas. they were going to bring all three kids meaning the kids that Paul had had with Bob over for a holiday. And Bob contested this. He didn't want it to happen because he didn't want them to be taken out of school so early. It was going to be like a two month job anyway So have that in mind. Michael is in Sydney He goes out, he basicallyes out goes out the lastash is up till five thirty in the morning and then comes back the hotel. and when he comes back to the hotel at like five thirty in the morning, Paula calls and basically says they can't come. And the reason why they can't come is that the hearing to decide whether they can come has been june to the seventeenth of December It isn't a complete cancellation Yeah, but I think that he is quite trashed and gets in his head that it is a complete cancellation that Bob will always in inverted commomas win. they will never be allowed to have a kind of family situation with him and the kids, and it's a bit of a disaster And doesn't she say to the lawyer or someone, this will kill Michael Yeah, apparently. yeah. I mean, it's just really awful anyway He calls a couple of old friends and one of them is so worried about how he sounds like this is like ten to ten. She calls his tour manager She comes to his door, she knocks on his door like she can't get a hold of him, she can't get hold of him. When she rings his room, she leaves a not at reception and basically he is found a few hours later and he has tied a belt around his neck and attached a buckle to a door handle. House huning himself in that way. That's really terrible. Oh my go. Oh, it's awful. It's just awful. it's really awful. Yeah It's just terrible loss of of a he was That's a terrible loss of life. Yeah, it's just terrible and the talent Yeah, and just like even if he wasn't telling honestly, he was really nice. He was a really nice guy Yeah. oh, it's awful. It makes me wantna cry on it. Yeah, it's horrible and it's it feels like a really Rim end as well. Yeah, it's so lonely. Lonely and public. Yeah. and on the other side of the world fromified. Undignified. Oh, it's awful Anyway, Paul has a friend called Belinda Brwin and she is told that this happens. and She goes round to Paula and the phone is ringing and she says, donon't pick up And she tells her and Paula punches her in the face and more Oh my go Anyway, it's just awful. It's just awful. She has to fly to Sydney to identify the body. that is like a twenty four hour flight PS, every other seat on the plane is journalists, of course. She's allowed no peace in this momentous loss. There are journalists outside her door, photographers outside her door there's in that there was a documentary And they showed her representativative saying Let her get in the car. First of all, let the children get in the car and be able to leave without having their pictures taken. They've just lost their stepdad. they've just seen their mum presumably in a bit severely distressed. Also, just let get in the car to the airport. What picture are you going to get of someone in the back of the car You can't imagine having to deal with those circumstances with everyone staring at you. Yeah, it's just honestly, it's just awful. anyyway You know? She gets there, you know the body is identified. There's eventually you obviously there's a kind of coroner investigates it. He says that he thinks that the cause of death is suicide by hanging. Paula insists that it's like basically auto erotic that that is the situation There is A funeral And that's incredibly sad. L as you say, Paula is there and also all his ex baby's there. I mean God. Oh God, it's just really. But also she just sticks to this belief that he wouldn't have left her. It must have been an accident, it must have been a sex thing gone wrong because there's no way he would have chosen to leave her. I think that's true. I mean, whether or not it's like, you know, you can end up in a in a really distressed state and you know, whatever, you know, it's like a moment, isn't it? Yeah Yeah, that definitely can happen. But then It's just really I've got to stand myself. Oh my God, is it so awful. And then at the same time, literally you know in December nineteen ninety seven, there is a DNA test that done and it reveals that Paulie Yates' dad was not Jess Yates, as she always thought, but it was another television presenter called Hughie Green, who was a one time friend of Jess Yates, who became his rival in the nineteen sixties, but also the reason why Jess Yates Korea nose dived was because he had an affair with a younger woman, even though his wife was split up back in nineteen seventy four, he had an affair with a younger woman called Anita Kay and Huie Greene was the person who had exposed it Oh I knew he hated him, but I didn't know why. Oh God. So she poor old Paula says, she says something really revealing. She says in the space of a week I've lost my future and my past. Oh God And she said to her mum, is this true? The papers are saying true this is the case. I'm going to sue them. Is it true? And the mum said, No, it's not true. I've never slept with him. And then they did a DNA test and it was true. So also the mum lied. Yeah, it's really, really sad. So yeah, in the space of week, I've lost my future and my past, it obliterated everything that I thought had been me. Ohooler Oh dearary me Okay, so this is like, I mean it's just really sad. It's ninety seven she tries her best after that. She tries her best, right? Didn't she go out with Finley quiet? yeah, she's in and out of the priory, she's in and out of cloud. and those are, I mean, it's for nervous exhaustion, but it also it has to be said it is for drugs, right? You know, there are situations, you know, I mean, God I can understand that . You know, whether that is like Pzac or Rhypnol or whether it's Coke or whether it's like whatever, I understand why she might be tempted in those situations. But also obviously she's lost the love of her life. She must have had this sense of everyone feeling she's got what she deserves. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, she she was It's terrible. L A that time she sees by mistake, a tabloid prints her obituary and sent it to her. by mistake. What? Yeah. and the headline is Suicide blonde which is an in excess onm But also like I think it's almost like people were waiting for her to commit suicide. Yeah Anyw, she has and she knew it. Yeah God. It's horrible. She has a bit of a torid time. Yes. She's not sober in certain situations. She, you know, goes to a Prince Charles prince Tress party in the park and she's drunk and she falls over and you know, she's like anyvert comments a disgrace. And There's just a lot of towing and throowing and there's a suicide attempt. you know, it's not Anyway She does recover She gets a house in Hastings Yeah. She escapes London. She writes, she starts to rebuild her life There have been like affairs with like, you know she went she went to rehab. She has an affair with somebody that she meets in rehab whose then sells the story to the tabloids. Oh my god, course She has a thing with Finley KQuay. you know It's not great. But she has definitely urned corner. Turned a corner, she's okay. She's doing pretty all right. And this Hastings thing apparently, didn't she go there with Michael it was somewhere they could go and be anonymous and just be together And it was kind of her refuge. Yeah And started going there, yeah, and healing. Yeah They love, you know, nice, really, really nice Anyway, she comes back to London and I'm going to say this you know do this part quite quickly because I find it very, very sad. So I come back to London and in seeptember two thousand so at the end of the nineties herer friend Josephine Fairley had called her house and said she was she had been in a bit of a state. She'd been sick cleans her up, she thinks she's okay, she'll be alright overnight. She's just living there. this is in London with Tiger. It is Pixie's birthday the next day. And so Josephine calls her in the morning, she doesn't pick up And then Tiger picks up and says Mumy's still asleep. And then she says, Mommmy's still asleep, and Josephine comes around and her instead. And it is an accidental overdose of heroin and the coroner says that it's essentially because she wasn't used to taking drugs, so she wasn't an active addict and she took too much. There is a story of a woman being in the house with her at the time who had been She's somebody that she'd met in one of her ins and outs of kind of addiction clinics I mean, I don't know, I don't know. I mean, it's just really, really sad. Yeah. It is absolutely Heartbreaking. Because it feels like it didn't have to happen There was a time where it seemed inevitable and she had turned a corner. Yeah And just for the irony of you know, the judge saying if she had been using heroin all the time, this amount wouldn't have killed her. Exactly. It was just another moment of madness. Yeah, you know, a moment of madness. so sad. Yeah. and they anyway, you know, it's really, really terrible. There is a funeral which takes place in Kent, which is where Bob Geldorf has a place And basically Bob Geldf and his partner, Jean Marine take on Tiger as part of their family and bring her up And I mean, that is just incredible, isn't it? Andorrect Correct, so correct, but how many people would actually do that? Yeah I mean, especially because Tiger looks like Minni Michael. I know. She me. c you. Anyway, what I would say is that since then, I mean there was the terrible tragedy of Peta dying, which is just awful. She was only like twenty five, absolutely terrible two kids awful. In such similar circumstances. I mean, just dreadful But what I would say is that the other Children are doing well, they have great partners, they have lovely lives. I am very happy for them. Yeah. You know, they had an absolutely brilliant mother, you know and actually you know, whether it's Tiger or whether it's Fifi and Pixie, they have brilliant fathers. they have done really, really well.. Good for them. Yes. absolutely good for them Yeah but yeah, it's a really sad note to finish San. But what I wanted to kind of say is actually if you throw forward, if you throw forward from Paul Eates in that time, right? And I think about there's a couple of characters. She reminds me of, right One is the presenter and that is Claudia Winkleman. And that is not her character, it's how she is with people. Claudia is cheeky. Yes. She's quite flirty in a kind of Claudia way. She is herself She has her own style. She's alternative and she's successful. And there's an element of her that like is caller, you know, that just the way she talks to people, she's quite Motherly and flirty with them at the same time, you know thought about? Yes, that makes sense. And the other person is Lily Allen And what I would say about Lily is that Lily has know a similar desire to have a great family and also have a career. and she has done it. Yes. Yes, you know, she's done it. I like this. I like that instead of ending both crying in a heap Yeah, we're going to say this is her legacy.. She's paved the way for other women to be fearless and spontaneous and vivacious and live life on their own terms and be spirited and not be told what they are or what they should be And yes, she' made some mistakes, obviously But we shouldn't end a conversation about her being sad because She wass so great, man. honest. great. If you go like you know, I would really encourage people to go and watch some of her interviews on YouTube. She's hilarious. Yeah. and it all stands up. That's the odd thing. when you think, you know, thirty years ago, it really does stand up today Those interviews could be on TV now and no one would well, people would betat an Iiff because because she saucy. Yeah. And also Telly. who watches Telly? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, She was great. We love her. Yes. and it's nice to celebrate her. She was so slagged off by everyone. How nice to just sit and be like, yeay, she was great. let's not forget her. Let's not focus on the tragedy. Let's remember all the brilliant things that she did. Hopefully her daughter' can get some comfort from remembering the mother that she was rather than, you know the tabloid star Yeah that someone people tried to turn her into Okay, so here at Talk nineties to meet, we of course have a Talk ninety Spotify playlist to get us through the sad times and remembering the good times. Okay, which track would you like to add, Polly? You have added one before, but you know you can have another now. Thank you, very kind. I'm going to go with the spies girls, of course. Very hard to choose just one, but I'm gonna go say you'll be there. Oh, I love that one Okay, great. The excellent choice. That was Talk Nags to Meet featuring Polly Hudson, whose brilliant columns in the Guardian are a delight to read and often form part of our sister podcast, The Hot Take time Machine because we enjoy them so much. And you also have a substack, right, Polly. Where can people find it obviously on substack, but how can they find it? Yeah, it's called S shrink wrapped. Yes, It's an occasal increasingly occasional theies That's good. That's always good though. Make people wait for it.. Okay, if you join our Patreon, not only will you get the chance to buy some cute merch, such as Talk nineties to me mugs, t shirts, bucket hats. You'll also get some special episodes about stuff I like from the nineties and you might become our Talk nineties king or queen for a week anyway, even if you don't join our Patreon. 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