Is the Film Cursed

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Collect one of nine legendary cups with a FIFA World Cup meal. participating McDonald's for limited time, whilew suppies last All rights reserve twenty six McDald's at FF World Cup twenty six This summer, Prime Video takes you back before legally blonde, before law school and into the world of Elle Woods in high school. Set in nineteen ninety five, this Gemini vegetarian knows exactly who she is until her family moves from Bel Air to Seattle. packed with iconic fashion, nineties nostalgia, and a throwback soundtrack, Elle proves one thing Law school was hard. High school was harder. From the world of legally blonde, watch Al, a new original series only on Prime videoideo july first This is another excellent episode of Tk nineties too me. However, I have a trigger warning. We swear quite a bit in this episode, and there is also a mention of sexual assault and rape Hello and welcome to Talk nineties to me, where we want our nipples to press, but we don't want them levitating. 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Just email talkk nineties to me at podmasters. co. uk On with the show This is Talk nineties to me where we hitchhiike to Vegas, get a job as a poll dancer, cause a riot in a club through amazing moves, upgrade to showgirl, sabotage the star seduce her boyfriend and step into her role, then attack a pop star rapist and hitchhike back out of Vegas again. I'm Miranda Sawyer and this week on Talk nineties to Me we are talking Showgirls, The nineteen ninety five erotic drama heem heem that's been labelled the worst film of all time. And with me, to deny that and discuss icy nipples and wonky thongs, I'm delighted to welcome Chantal Faduchin Pet, excellent co host of The wayay They W and all the medals, Shgirls expert she is actually in a showhgirl's t shirt. Right now. Hi, Chantal. justust describe your t shirt? It is I thought I was saying someiranda before we started recording. I thought it was a bit on the nose, but if not now when It's basically the scene from the film where Nomi finally gets her rightful spot as the head of the goddess show. That's her in a sepia tone. Next to it says the world She's in between the word show and girls. Aazing iconic scene. And then on the back is a trip tick of her in black and white when she's performing at Cheetah' And it's full frontal as well. and I just like walking in the streets with this. Yeah. She's nicked. And it ss up there at the bottom of the shirt, I forgotten what. Maybe at the end the show I can lift up a bit and you can tell what I. So keep listening, listeners. So initially, I'd heard that you'd done a masters in showgirl d. I might as well have done it. I could teach it. I think you could do But it's a very important film in your life, isn't it? It's my favorite film. And okay, we're going to investigate why. but I just want to know When you watch it, how come you watched it? How you just you know, came across it I remember first coming across that it came out when I was in America, and I was fifteen when it came out And obviously couldn't see because I was fifteen. and it being NC seventeen was a huge deal. L I remember the cardboard cutouts of her, which to this day I regret not stealing. in the foyers of all the cinemas I was going to And I remember seeening it and it was a massive. We all knew Ohh my go Sirl, showgirl. And of course I had a big relationship with her as Jessie Sanner from Save byy the Bell, Huge Save by the Bell. Elizabeth Berky, who is the star? That's right. And I could equally do a mastermind on Save byy the Bell. I just a huge fan of that as well. So we were all aware of that. and yeah, so I was very aware of it when it came out, and then I was very aware that it immediately became known as one of the worst films ever I don't think I actually saw it until I was probably like nineteen or twenties, so sort of like around the turn of the millennium. And even then, I appreciated it, I liked it, but I don't think I really got into it until sort of like my mid twenties And then I sort of rediscovered it, I started watching it. And then by the time I hit thirty I had really sort of like realized that this film basically is me. This film is she is my hero. This film is incredible. I absolutely love it. It's my desesert Islands movie. Well I mean, Earth Girls are Arazy is a close second. then Beverly Hills caught beneath that and maybe Beverly Hills. basically I just love this film so much though. And I just find it when people ask why I like it so much, my main immediate response is just I find it wildly entertaining. Like I am not bored for a second in this film. I am thoroughly enthralled throughout from start to finish. The minute it begins, I feel so like excited and I'm just this exhilarated. And because of the energy of the movie, this like aggressiveness, which I'm sure we'll get into of the movie, it's just action, action, action They often say about David Foster Welles's, what's his big book? to Infinite Jess. There I remember Dave Eggers wrote a thing about that saying there's not a single word wasted in that book. I would disagree with him on that. but there is not a single second wasted in showgirls. Everything for Hoven Dade was Pfection me. Okay, I'm going to do a summary of kind of what it's about and you know how it came out and I think. Okay. So it came out in nineteen ninety five. It's directed by Paul Verhoven and he had done like some massive films. He'd done like Robo cop, total recall, Bic instinct. He is like a big, big director. Huge in his home country as well, Turkish Delight, his second film is still I highly recommend, by the way, is like still the number one film in his home country it's incredible. Oh that's amazing. Okay, so it stars Elizabeth Berkeley and she works really hard to get this part. There's also Carl McLachlan, Gina Gershan and then lots of other people, right? It's made, it's got quite a big budget, forty five million dollars. It's written by Joe Eesterhus as well as it is. It's notoriously, they spend a lot of money on it. It's a sexy film, but so it's got a seventeen. So that means you can't get maybe you know, people like you in there can can't go and watch it It is a box office bomb. It gets thirty seven point eight million dollars against a budget of forty five million. But then later on, it is a huge, huge success on the kind of VHS home video market and then makes a hundred million. So itsd it has a weird life of its own where it comes out, everyone thinks it's terrible and then it is adopted really by a kind of generation after that and becomes a success. So the origin of it is Weirdly, MGM musicals. So Verhoven says he wanted to make a kind of MGM musical. And he succeeded. Which is actually interesting because I think if you look at the film, you're like, oh, okay, I get it, because there's an awful lot of dance numbers in there. Oh, there's tons, more than you think. Yeah. It keeps re watchatching it last night, I was like, go, they're doing they're doing another dance number. I was like, this is great. I slightly on my nose Okay, and and it's obviously it's set in Las Vegas. Everything about it is kind of big. He literally gets Esther House has advanced two million two million do. Two million dollars to write that script, right? And then when it's made into a film, he gets another one point seven million do. I mean I mean, it was a different time in Hollywood as well. It's a kind of madness. Anyway, eventually becomes a highest rate screenwriter in Hollywood history. They had just in his defense, they had just come off of basic Inct Yeah So they just thought this is gonna to be like basically everyone thought that film was gonna to be an absolute flop. And yet it just ended up being absolutely huge. They just thought, well, this is gonna to be that again. And poor Elizabeth probably thought this is my Sharon Stone moment. Exactly this. So she is interesting, she's at an interesting point in her career. So she's been in Sed by the Bell. Do you want to explain what Save by the Bell is? One of the greatest shows you'll ever see. Save by the Bell It was a ridiculous sitcom set in high school. It actually started as a Hailey Mills thing Haley Mill's original Ficky Friday girl for our generation. It was called Good Morning Miss. Bliss. And then they realized that she was less popular than the kids. they turned it from being about her into being about just the kids and then was called Sve by the Bell. And it was Zach Morris, who was the hot cool sort of Ferris Bueller type of a school. and then his circle of friends, the geeky guy, the Jock Elizabeth Berkeley played Jessie Legs Spano, who was kind of the feminist of the group. She was always putting down AC Slater for being a chauvinist pig, etcetera. And then you were Kenny Kapowski, every guysy's dream and Lisa Turtle, who are the nerdves in love with. in any case. and they just got up to shenanigans with Mr. Belding, the principal. Nothing was connected. Every episode was very much a standalone episode and ridiculous And it was just a silly dumb, you know twenty five minute sitcom, but it was on in America. I don't think people realize it was on Every single day, four times a day. If you timed it right with different channels, you could watch four episodes every single day after school, which I obviously did. And it was just and it was on repeat relentlessly for years years. So's essentially it's hugely popular. She is popular. And she wants to She was at the star of the show. Let's be perfectly clear about this though. I think there's a bit of revisionous history Kelly Kapowski was the Tiffany Amber Thaston was like the one that was gonna to make it. I guess Zach. She was essentially one of the side characters on it for being honest, but anyway was gone sor. So she's on it. And she she doesn't do the last series. And she's wisely. Yeah. And she thinks, okay, I'm gonna be you know, I'm going to work hard and I'm going to go into films or whatever. She doesn't And she was a trained dancer as well. She'd always been in a trained daner. Really whichich they showed on say by the Bell Her and AC Slaterer, Maria Lopez had both been trained dancing. There was always every fifth episode, they'd have to be like, Oh no we're in a bed. And they would che horn in a reason why we could get Jessie and AC Slater dancing. So she decides she wants to go into films, but it's quite difficult, right? And it's notoriously difficult to move from tellelly to film in those times. Eespecially from like a teen dumbam ye. Okay So she and she's still young, she's still in her teens. So she does a bit of television she does like Baywatch Diagnosis murder crossroads Bur's Lw So she does all this, she does a Pepsi commercial in ' ninety three that is in the Super Bowl, which is obviously always a big deal. But it's going like not brilliantly. It's going so brilliantly that she actually enrolls at UCLA to study English literature, right So then She comes across the script for showgirls, this incredibly expensive script for showhgirls, right? So she had got it while the film' still in development, right? And she loves it. Like the thing that I really have to emphasize is she really relates to the character. She loves that character. She does her own research before she's even got the part. She goes to strip clubs in L.A, Las Vegas and New York. She interviews strippers there She personally calls the showgirls producer Charles Evans and introduces herself as Nomi. Smart girls. Yeah, I mean, she really, really works hard for it, right And it's a very difficult to cast And the reason why it's difficult is you have to act, you have to really be able to dance and also you have to be comfortable with f full frontal frrontal nudey. And def finded American actress you could do all three things. Really hard. Impossible. Yeah. So they look at Pamela Anderson, Drew Barrymore, Angelinea Jolie. They can't dance. Angelina and Jolie. Oh, come on in ninety five I know it's sm. I don't believe that. Jennifer Lopez. five She wasn't even a f girl.et, this is revision of history. I don't know go on. All right. Denise Rich is Charl's Tron, I'm not sure about that either. Yeah, I don't buy any of those. The nudity is a huge huge problem and she is like al right with it. So she gets the part, which is absolutely great. and it does help her. So she gets this part and she moves agent she moves to CA creative artists agency, which is a big huge agency. So it's like this is going to be big for you. I'm going to make it I' can gott imagine what she was like thinking. justust imagine in her head. It my head. pooor girl. So she's signed to the AenC, she's doing the part. She does twelve weeks rehearsal period with a choreographer and the dance ensemble, and the shooting lasts four and a half months, right She often during this time when she's shooting, she often and rehearsing often dced for up to sixteen hours a day, seven days a week and never use a body double I am right. She worked Really worked hard working hard. And it shows that her body looks like Yeah she's a dan's body. she looks absolutely amazing. Anyway. So that is the situation. They make this film In the film is also Carl McClachan Yeah that haircut. Yeah. And Gina Gersen, who's plays Crystal, and I think it's kind of fabulous in it Yeah to say. But apparently this also might be vvisionist history, but I'm going to say it anyway, apppparently, Madonna was considered on Sharon Son. No, I'veard that a lot. I've heard a lot at the time. And that at least makes sense at the time. If someone I mean, think about it someone who would do full frontal and can dance and desperate to be an actor is taken seriously. too be honest, Madanonna would be an obvious choice. That makes sense to me. Okay. So let's talk about the film because I will talk about the reactions for it afterwards, but let's just Talk about what happens. Oh my gos in the film. Just the first five minutes, the first five minutes. The first five minutes. Yeah go. The first five minutes, she's hitchhiking on a highway with a ridiculous suitcase. Yeah. It's the suitcase that your granny would use. It's the kind of suitcases they had on like planes trains or automobiles, those big old heavy leather. And the idea is that she's been walking on a desert highway in a polyester shirt carrying this suitcase that weighs like an anvil. Why fight think makes no sense. She gets picked up by a guy in a truck. He vaguely comes onto her. She immediately brings a knife to his neck. They almost have a huge car accident with an eighteen wheeler oil rig, it looks like. They arrive at a casino. She goes in, he splits. We later find out to steal her stuff. He gives her like ten dollars She turns that ten dollars into a whole bunch of money. then she loses all her money. this almost the entire film happens in these first five minutes. Then she comes out of there on the way out. A guy says you're going have to sell it sometime, which is foreshadowing. She comes out, almost dies on the road, pukes Beats up some girl's car that has like an intimate moment with this new friend after find out all her stuff has been stolen. This all happens in five minutes. The exposition is just off the charts. It's incredible. and H her energy from the beginning, rewatching it. She's so, I'm sure you'll discuss this. She's so aggressive. She everything is over the top, everythingthing is to the eleventh degree And I realized, particularly in the car, when he's like, you can sit a bit closer. She says, fuck off Bast Eer like pulls her knife immediately I was like, whereere is this? this looks familiar beyond the film itself. I've seen so many times Eileen Wernos, it was really giving me Eileen Wernoss energy. you know Eileen Wurnnos? I'm not know who that is. Oh, yes you do. She's the one that Charlie Stteram prerivly mentioned, did Monster about. Okay and died in prison and they did a documentary. What's his name? D did a documentary about her? Who's the British documentary maker? Who did Curt Courtney? Oh, I know exactly who mean. I think of his name in a minute. But you know, yeah did Yeah the whole docentary about her. if you seen the documentaries about her, and she was someone who, as we find out from Nomi had a really rough life and was, you know, sexually assaulted a lot and raped a lot and kind of had to use prostitution to get by, etcer. And watching this, I was like This is really giving the energy of Eileen Weros. somebody who's always on edge and always just ready to be like attacked all the time. It's really interesting because yeah, this like it it's a weirdly aggressive film And she is crazy aggressive fil. And she is aggressive from the start. And that is Why Interesting because it's not really explained. I mean, later on, Verhoven kind of says, oh, it is explained at the end because basically she gets the idea is that in her suitcase is drugs she needs to think gets nicked and all this kind stuff and. And then they explained that she'd been done for you know, prostitution before and drugs and that she basically had been kicked out of her foster home and watched her dad kill her mom. Basically the idea that she had a rough life and had been in the drugs in the vice game, which had turned her into this kind of like tough, tough character. this is not But this is not explain. For us as the artist, it's like, what is up with this fucking girl? Why is she just kicking and punching? There was one, I don't know who it was who said, I think it may have been in the commentary on the special edition, which of course I own And the guy was saying, if you watch it, she's either staring or kicking. That's those are her two movements in the entire film. and it's so true.ith kicking with her hands or everything is like When her new friend who's just for no reason at all being nice to her just says, you know, the famous, Where are you from? Back East, where And it's just so kind of it's so unnecessarily it's like just answer the question say your friendraids. Andight never lets up She never relaxes, she never cales down. It's really interesting because we didn't you the plot of the film. I just told you for the first five minutes. I apologize. But it's also really interesting because that character that she's playing. So obviously she is playing somebody who has been sexually abused had a really, really difficult time, but we don't know this. So we just think she's justppy nut And she doesn't change throughout. So it's almost like normally you would expect something like that that she would have a kind of breakdown scene of vulnerability. She would burst into tears explain, Ohh my Godd, there's one time when she cries when he finds out who she is But it's five seconds at most. the next scene is her dress up to go beat up Andrewarver. Like like that. She's gone back to reggression. she's almost like running on her her personality is consistent throughout and normally in Americ consistently insane Yeah. borderline personality. Yeah. She is. And normally in American films, it's a story of you go high, you go low, you come high again, right? Andovin is European. He's doing it different. And odd because of that. Like Like if you think about the film in terms of where the scenes arrive and everything and who the characters are, it's really literally to me, it's much more like a series. It's like a soap opera. Oh yeah, ye. Somehow squished in two hours. Yeah And that's what's weird about it because you're constantly expecting the dynamic to do something that you expect becausecause on another level, it's quite a conventional iniverted commomerce film in that it' about it's got loads of fit women. It's like, you know, you're following them, they're constantly taking the clothes off. you know, it's quite of its era. But it doesn't do what you emotionally expected to H normal character, Aric. To finish the plot, she comes to Vegas, has this screwed up beginning moves in with her new friend, becomes a stripper at a local bar, which does exist in real life, Cheetah. Sheah Sheetah does. and wants to be a big dancer, she came there to dance goes to one of the big casinos, sabotages the big star of the show, and then it's very all about Eve, basically storyline, becomes the big star there. Then something violent happens to her friend She takes revenge. And I think you're meant toa I think you're meant to assume though that she realizes If I stay here, I'm going be I'm in this. There's no way out. there's no justice here. Everyone's an asshole here. So she has a kind of moment vaguely of redemption and then leaves and goes to of course it goes to that lovely wholesome. We see her. The final scene is her driving off to that wholesome, everythingverything's going to be just fine city of Los Angeles where she's certainly not gonna end up on Hollywood Boulevard with pretty woman. I mean herer future is would the money I would pay I would start to go fund me for a prequel and to find out her back and for a sequel, an actual, I don' know they've done a sequel, but a real sequel to see where she ended up. Yeah. I would it'd be amazing. Yeah. Okay. It is a funny what for me. I'd never watched it before It's sorry' funny watch. I'm sorry., it's hilarious. Don't take it. It's funny, like there's funny lines in it, but it's also a funny watch. No shit. Look got Aids of shit. That's one of my favorite lines. There's got really funny lines, which well, you know, I mean I'm gonna read some of them out, but there are some very funny lines in there I mean, there's also' written. There's awful flirting. Okay the writing is the writing is insane in it. I mean, we all know the writing is insane. It's so bad One of the biggest motifs throughout, I wonder if you noticed this while you were watching it is that all the girls talk about is nails and potato chips, which is not far from reality. People make fun of that a lot. all these girs talk about is nails. And I'm like as a nail girlly, I'm like, I do talk about nails a lot. She' doing good nails. She She getting good nails. And I was like, this is not everyone knows makes fun of that. mainly men are like Oh God, this guy just sings that all women talk about is nails. And I was like, have youve been around girls with nice nails? we do spend a lot of time talking about nails. It was It does pass the Beckdel test justust saying it passes passes the Becktail test. Okay. So in fact very rarely are talking about men. Yeah, not at all. I mean, the men come in and they come out. It's f this text. Is it. Okay. So there's some funny lines. If you wantan to last more than a week, you give me a blow job You give me a blow job. firstirst, I get you used to the money, then I make mall. That is an incredible line. I mean,'s an inc I'm not say this is a good thing to sayve. I mean in terms of just pure writing, that line, first you get used to the money, then I make you swallow. That is an insane. That's almost like that should be on the American flag of like, welcome to capitalism. is that explains everything about Vegas and LA and how women are commodified. There's so much in that line It's I think Joe Eesterhouse, we' knocked out of the park with that line. Yeah That line. and people got AIDs and shit, my second favorite line. That line is given by the head of Cheetahs, which is where she stopped. He has some great lines M must be weird if he will not come on you. Yes. I' have a great line. There is a character in Cheetus. So basically she comes to Vegas, she immediately picks up, makes friends with Molly Molly ye. Andly sort of good person in the film of course to Of course she has to get attacked. Yeahah, completely attacked, terribly. So anyway And she's working at Cheetatah, which is considered to be very down markarket because it's a pole dancing joint. Yeah And we're told it's Down Market very early on. So that means that youre because it's a Downmarket joint actually it is filled with better characters. And one of the characters who I really love is thisacteropaZom. Yeah. Henrietta. Incredible So let's describe. she's older than all the She's by. Yeah. She's bady and she is basically a big older woman who wears this dress that has it system you basically press a button and it will drop down and show you No, she does that with her. She makes this like almost like chicken flapping arm movement arm movement. Yeah. And then it makes the top of the dress that's on some kind of spring action. It's actually very complicated for this cheap bar. And then it flops open and her boobs come out. and it' all everything she does is for commy. She's obviously notant be obviously ' she's fat. How could she possibly be sexy if she's fat over thirty And so she's there as this kind of comic element. I've been to strip clubs Have you been to strip clubs? I've never in my entire life seen anyone even tell a joke on stage. M less, have a whole act come on Wh who was like, bam b bam. I mean, more like a workingmen's club kind of vibe. I mean, you know orr a drag club vibe. Yeah, it does. it's fair. Well I mean, to be fair, there's a whole lens of this film where everyone's a drag in this film. I mean, this film is this non stop drag She is such a crazy character. She's who I would play if I could be in this film. Like I absolutely love her. She jo Her jokes are interesting though. I wonder how you feel about this, Miranda because Her jokes This is how you can tell it's written by a man Because her jokes are still making fun of women. Yeah. Her jokes should be making fun of The men Absolutely. I completely agree. The problem with that I'm not actually going to say one of the jokes because like I wrote it down and I was like, that is a really misogynistic. Her character was correct, the way she told the jokes was correct, the reactions, the sound, everything about it was correct, but the material is wrong is wrong. It' completelyongte whichich is kind of if you zoom out the entire film, everything's just the wrong choice. It is everyone endlessly making the wrong choices. The whole film was just one big wrong choice. Yeah, that's really interesting because yeah, you're right, it's completely All her jokes are wrong because they're written by a bloow. and they're making fun of women. She wouldn't be doing. She would not be. The men would love her to be like r't seeing all of them. That's precisely what they'd be after. Yeah.'s very it's very funny but also I still love her Yes, she's a great character She's absolutely. You look better than a ten inch dick. this is great. Why would you say that's right misses you like that M for my twot last week. There's something about American saying twot as well. that's a really purely American thing. Yeah. She's just, oh, she's great. I love her This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom sccrolling? Smart move Another smart move Getting help from one of State Farm's nineteen thousand local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state She wrote a little song to remind you, Choice Hotels get you more of the experiences. You val A your hotel's got it all. a rooftop b, have a ball. Ccktails up and feel just right This Champry are homeazes Allright Bring a date, your team, or even your mom? Brooook direct at choicetails dot com See ya all the weeood For kids, summer isn't just time off, it's time gri with confidence and curiosity. But when school meals pause, millions of children lose the food they count on. Your support helps the Feeding America network nourish every child's potential. Give now at feedingammerica d. org slash summer Hungry. The other obvious aspect to do with the male gaze, the male writing. I've got things to say about the male gaze. Okay. let's talk about that Something very weird going on about this film, meaning that, okay, it's meant to be an MGM musical and we have a lot of dancing in it? We do have a lot of dancing. We have a lot of dancing. I would say that the dancing is quite weird Oh yeah, there's nothing sexy ever really about the. This is what I find really weird. It's almost like it's what he and Verhoeven called like anti erotic and it is, it's kind of like sexless And it's also really fast. It's very aggressive, jerky. It's not so normally with the male gaze, what you would get in this situation is a kind of like fake sensuality. So it would be the moves would be more sensual. And if you go to strip clubs, generally speaking, they do move very slow. It's all very languid They're kind of slinking around the pole. You get them spinning around once in a while, but the ones I've been to, they're all very slow and slinky This one she's all like pow, pow pow. It's all very like boom, five six, seven eights. This is insane. It Asolutely insane. So there is a moment earlier on in the film where she's working at Cheetahs She would like to work A theard At the stardust. And the stardust star, Crystal, turns up with her boyfriend Zach, Zack, who's Carl McClulan, and they come and watch and she's kind of slightly embarrassed but she does her thing. And then she does a dance. Crystal pays for a dance so that she does a dance on the Pv dance on Zack, yeah. Okay. So the really weird thing about all of this whether it's the dance, the erotic pole dancer dance or the dance that she does for him is it just it's like she's doing athletics Yeah It's like it's not sexy, it's really fast. likeike, you know if it's aggressive, I know we keep using the word aggressive, but I just There is only other. That should be her middle name. It's just aggressive. But it's also that's what makes it almost funny. Yes. becausecause when you if you watch it like you know If you were a stripper or a pole dancer, you know that the guy you're doing a dancec for really you don't have to do that much. Exactly. You really don't have to do that much. She can't touch you, you can touch him. I mean, really, just go over there and like slowly wiggle. He's gonna be really, really happy. Yeah. She works it like she works And she does that same move again in the iconic sex scene in the pool with the dolphins and this very athletic crazy move she's doing. but what I find interesting about this and I really paid attention to when I was doing my rewatch of it last night is that actually all the dancings O Even though it's been filmed by a man, etcetera, they're all shown to us as actually being for a woman. Every time she's dancing, the first scene we see there's a woman in there. There's a woman watching. We're meant to be watching it through the woman's eyes. It's actually the female gaze in many ways. She's always dancing for crystal, not Zack. she's on the poll, she's dancing for crystal. When she's giviing him the lap dance, she's doing it for Crystal. When she goes to the Stardust, we're watching her watch crystal through her eyes watching it When she's auditioning, we're watching Crystal watch her. We're always watching her or always watching a woman dancing for another woman or through the eyes of another woman. It's always women dancing Four women weirdly. Aside from when she's in like the nightclub, I guess, and she's with the James when she's dancing with him Generally speaking, even if even when she's auditioning for the guy, she's doing it to impress the woman and vice versa. and she's always trying to show off for them, or she's watching them and wanting to be like them. You know, she's watching Crystal and does that movev, the iconic her doing the hands thing trying to copy Crystal to learn the dance, which is very, you know, that's how you learn dance, apparently. And all of that, it's all watching girls watching gir But there's also like a really vague kind of bisexual element, isn't it? It's not vague' you cant vague when it comes to show. It's like okay that's Yeah, that's true. can't vague when it. There's no sub text, it's text. Yeah, it's text, but it's also kind of really lesbian Do you know what I mean? It's like really like, okay, we're gonna dance really close together, we're gonna kind of rub on, knock us together, and then we're gonna snog there. And there's a dance scene where, yeah, this scene you're talking about where they're meant to be training and where they've had the lunch in that restaurant, which I could do forty five minutes on that lunch. I'm talking about doggy Chaow. And then they're dancing afterwards. and then Crystal's like, See, honey, you are a whore That dance In that dance, they're like it's all sensual and meant to be really sexy. As you say, it's all jerky and these weird kind of like jazzer siz type moves, like really weird moves aren't hot and all this thrusting. And then she pulls her top down to reveal her tits. and it's like all this bigger. It's like we've seen her tits like so many timesos by now. you can't have this around What? We've done this. It seems so good This is zero impact. Yeah, it's very it's very odd film. She There are moments that also make me la. So there's a lot about titch. You see a lot of and she has, I know it sounds reductive. I'm not trying to be like that, but as a woman And it's particularly as we don't see, I feel like a lot of like natural boobs anymore that often. She has like some of the best hits I've ever seen in my life, like a dream. If I was ever going to get fake booes I would just bring in showgirls and be like, first watch this whole film so we can be friends and then give me those tits. I think they're just the perfect, perfect. They're like Kelly Le Brock in weird ss it's the perfect, perfect hit. But it's also interesting me because I expected, I don't know why, I did expect a lot of boob jobs. They're not They really not.'s lots of and funny you bring that up. I wondered if you noticed this that watching it Her lips seem pumped up As then like Elizabeth Broke's lips seem pumped up, but everything else it's natural. Seems really yeah, and all of them, Gina Grchan's with all of the girls have these these non yasified faces. It was kind of really nice to see all these Yeah strippers with real faces. But it was. all their kind of natural boobs bouncing around and all different sizes Yeah, and they're all dancers so they're like, you know, they all their yeah and all their bodies seem slender but not skinny and I don't want to get too far into this, but it was really nice to see these these bodies, you know normal but kind of normal but very fit. It's very fit, but it seems like fit from working out, not fit from a disorder of some kind. Yes, exactly that. But anyway, there is like theres obviously, you know, there's a lot of there are we see a lot of And then there is a moment that really makes me laugh. So she does an audition. But there's a moment where she does an audition because she wants to get into thisust. It's the bit where so there is a guy. So she's moving, hopefully, she hopes from Cheetah to Stardust to go into the Godddess show, which is a very weird show, but anyway, whatever So she's hoping to go ono and there's all these young women who are going to be auditioned. Yeah. And the guy who is auditioning them is like brutal. Oh, he's some of his lines as well.. They're terrible. He's based back when you fuck some of that baby fat up.redible. incredible. And by the way, she's if you watch the credits, she's in the credits as baby fat dancer. that's so unfair. And there's also woman who's got like biggerits and he goes, Those are watermelons. This is a stage baby. It's not a patch. p.ike like What are you talking about? It's so good. Not a watermelon patch. L, o, and the one goddess mentions classes. We're here for Danet, not classes. See you later. It's always like I see you. Gbye. Anyway, I'm erect, why aren't you? And he has the bucket of ice there I is on can So she's auditioning to be in this topless show, right? And she is a dancer. He's auditioning. I mean, you know, he is a bit much, but you know, if he says I' trick. he says I'm being a pr And she's doing all the dances. She's doing very well. and then he basically says Can you make your nipples morerect? In fact, what he says is, I'm erect. I'm erect. why can't you why aren't you? Great line as well. Great line.. So he says that and like she refuses to make her nipples erect. He offers her some ice to make her nipples erect. and she just drops off. and I'm like, m You've gotten this far. Yeah. Is this the line? Is this whyy are you so upset? I don't really understand You're in a topless show. She, you've got really far. and then he's Well, she has this whole throughout the film, a through line throughout the film is her being really offended when someone references the fact that she's basically a sex worker. You're I'm not a whore. I'm not doing it. And fromom the very beginning, you have to sell it sometime. No I'm not. And she obviously I mean, I think Verhoven and Esther House thought they were giving a roross statement on, you know, the Madonna Horr complex of society and that she'd obviously been through prostitution in her past and was trying to leave all that and very classic thing of you know, I'm a dancer, I'm not that. And I sort of get all that, but it's It's like at this point, you are a stripper at a strip club where you're licking the pole, which by the way is also incredible. gettingetting your entire body out. You can't possibly in any world think that you're not selling sex Yeah the way I'm for. I I'm It's weird that she's always offended if someone references this, like sort of if someone outwardly says it, she gets really, No how dare you? Yeah, she'd think she'd have a line, like to just deal with it. And also like said she's a dancer in a sexy show. I'm not saying that she' because of that, she therefore has to have sex with people, but she's a dancer in a sex show. But the moments she decides in a weird way that what someone is doing to her is degrading are at odds with what she's choosing to do to make money It doesn't make she's just decided, well now that's insulting. It doesn't actually then what do you Wasn't it insulting when your old boss told you to blow him or something that like, whyy is this the one that stops you? It's so weird. She's very weird. There are some weird subplots in this film, right? And One of which is she goes to a disco at a certain point with Molly and they're having a nice time and there is a guy who's the DJ and he thinks he looks at her on the d. No,'s abouts her's. She goes and he goes She can definitely dance. And he goes to do a dance with her on the dance. This is what's so funny is that people throw mean her dancing is wild I don't dislike it, but it is wild Its not. It'somous good dancing. No, it's just crazy. It's just these huge big movements. And the idea that everyone's like, wow, she's got heat. lookook at her dance. everyveryone's like blown away by her. It's like, who would be into this kind of dancingene? And but I will say with James If you watch it, he calls her for who she is more than everything he says he's right about. When he tells her off later on, tells her off, when he says later on to her in the movie Am I allowed to curse? Yeah. When he says later on in the movie, like you were fucking that guy. She was like, no, I wasn't I was like, yeah, you were fucking him and his girlfriend. You were fucking him without fucking him. And that's what he says. People got AID and shit. It ain't right. You got too much tellent for it to be right. But he's right. He sees her. When he then says, I see you, you're running from something. somethingomet bad happened to you. he's right When he calls Zach a pimp s' callry like that's guy it's a pamp guy. He's right Zack is basically. He is always kind of being he's always kind of correct. He's always she that's why she kind of can't handle it because she can't just every other guy or other person. She can kind of control with her sexuality or by just losing her mind and being really drawing a knife on it. Yeah exactly. But he's the one that kind of sees through all her bullshit and kind of get. But what really makes me laugh about that is that A sees through all her bullshit because he's black and B because he's a trained dancer with Allvin Alli. Are you really? Evin Alli? yeah. so they have this amazing This amazing dancing, by the way, didid you clock the song and they're dancing you in that nightclub? No, which one is this? It's fucking I'm Afraid of Americans by David Bowie. Bear inind when that came out, I looked at I was like, why is the how? That came out on Earthling in ' ninety seven. This was ninety five. It was a demo This was a demo of I'm afraid of America did it? No, it was Brianino. wasn't it? It was a M. He was It was a demo of I'm Afraid of Americans by Boie. First heard in Shgirls. Showls. That's a needle drop. So basically he is there to tell her us she's a great dancer. They do this ridiculous dance. Ridiculous dance to a print song. Yeah in his room. Yeah. That's just terrible. But anyway, he's there Then there are other moments. She does get a job at ard she gets in there. There are a lot of bits backstage that I do quite enjoy. The monkeys. Okay, yes, so let's just talk about the monkeys. So there's a certain point where they are all getting ready to go on to do this ludicrous dance which I have, you know, it's a running mode. Did we see the monkeys a few times Yeah fel. And we hear the words monkey alert, monkey alert. Great I mean, we've all been backstageed. You've been there. You're in the biz, right? You've heard that. Yeah. And it's basically they're just monkeys have got out. And I'm just fascinated by what this show was This guy on the same stage. I mean, we haven't got time to get into the set design on these sets. That would just be impossible to do and to change them up. It is just crazy. But the idea that there was these monkeys on the stage that they're d done on? So literally the first time she goes on, they go, Ohh, know,'m sorry the monkeys are on stage I what B the girls kids Fr like central casting of the most ridiculously. I mean, the girl's like nine, but like practically in pig tails holding a teddy bear going, M,' like, what the fuck are these kids doing backstage? The woman's about to go on stage. Why would this be like your weekend with the kids? It just makes no sense. none of it makes any sense. There's also a bit where there one there's a dancer who's in it, a guy who's straight and everybody else is gay. And he gets really upset because people like are teasing him about it. And then he gets so upset that he says to another one of the male dancers who's gay, You want a knuckle sandwich and the guy I go a sandwich can Iine? Can I have mine analally Even the actor doing it, trying to be his most kind of a yes, like gay could not make that sound. like anything a gay guy would say or any humid would say, but also knuckle sandwich. like he's like a nineteen fifties greaser. Who talks like that? A knuckle sandwich. Ryan Reynolds here from Mbile. 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Search the bunker on your favorite podcast app So the film is like the film, and then there is a moment really close to the end, which is I mean, inverticom is a pivotal plot point, but it is really unpleasant, right? And that moment is a very violent rape scene. And the person who is raped is Molly, who is essentially she is a good person throughout She. She's also black. Yeah And there are very few black characters in there. And to be honest, the two main black characters are just constant kind of moral concern really Yeah which is a bit of a, you know, anyway. It's the nineteen nineties. It's the nineteen nineties. So she is looking out for Nomi throughout She's like morally centered. She warns her all the way through and she is in inverted comments, you know that what is her reward? She just gets this terrible rape. It's really awful. And she's raped by this Andrew Carver, the singer. The singer guy yeah. who's got long kind of hair and then two of his friends as well Yeah, it's two of his like heavies It's the scene that when they do screenings of it, there's often lots of screenings where they're they will just like not watch this. They'll skip through this scene. It's the one scene that Biggest fans of the film will say like, o this is the ones he we shouldn't have had. Esther House himself, I think is said like we messed up with that. we shouldn't have done that I think everyone has kind of collectively come around. The actress who played the part said that that scene took like eight hours to film and she was like, she's like, to be honest, the body doesn't realize it's not real. So she's like, I think my body was reacting in a way that made it feel like the trauma of that. So there's a lot of, I think most people would agree that the film would one billion percent be better without the scene. I will say for me personally, watching it As horrible as it is when I find it so over the top. And so unreal. Yeah, I find it so cartoonish and so ridiculous the way the scene is shown and so If you have any, you know, if you've read anything at all about how sexual assault tends to happen, it's not really like this. It feels like it's very kind of Hollywood's idea of kind of, it's a bad man in the bush. It's all that kind of idea. And I find it so almost comic book level villainry that I find it difficult to be offended by it, even though I agree, the film shouldn't have this scene in it. It's not a good scene. It is so over the top. I don't find it difficult to watch. In the way that I find something like the accused or irreversible, I find difficult to watch and I still think about those scenes and feel like, oh my god, because they didn't This one is so there's a lens you can watch it with it's so silly. It's like a cartoon. It's like a comlicict book It doesn't feel real. Yeah. makes sense. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say, I mean, with everything to do with showgirs, none of it hits me emotionally in the slightest. Yeah, yeah. It just doesn't. It like it Like I am unmoved by that film. You you know what I mean? I can like like enjoy it, but I am unmoved emotionally by that film. It's not even as scary or awful as the scene in Thermmo Louise. Oh, like it's nowhere near that. God, no, no way. And and yet is played so much more than that. And the things the men are saying, the things they're yelling now, it all just feels like this is not how assault happens. The Felm in the Ws is a great example, but that is so The way that slowly becomes what it becomes and it kind of starts and builds and there's no build in this. It just goes straight from A to Z. It's just it's like the rest of the film. It's so over the top and silly and melodramatic that it almost doesn't even become difficult. but yeah, which yeah, I mean I agree. even though I agree, it shouldn't mean should be taken out. It just should be taken out. And the and also beyond that, beyond how horrible it is to watch, beyond that, the whole idea of the character Andrew Carver doing this at a massive party and her coming down the stairs in blood and everyone just kind of getting on with it. The whole idea of it's so silly, this wouldn't it's so crazy unrealistic that it it isn'ane that' in the film. It's insane But but I can say that about a lot of scenes in the film Yeah. It's just it's ridiculous. but there is also a scene afterwards where Nomi takes revenge because she's been told, this is when she realizes I can't stay here because I'm just going to like I'm part of this horrible horrible life here. And they've said, we're not going to do anything. He's part of the family We're not going to call the police deal with it. So she goes to beat him up basically by pretending she's going to have sex with heright. And she brings her trusty knife. alwaysways with her yeah. and she holds the knife to his neck and next time I'm going to kill you. And then she does these kind of weird crazy h kicks. Yeah. So she She appears to kind of slash him across the face, although we never really see that.ough we never see her use the knife on him. She just threatens him with the knife But if you do anything, I'm gonna to stab you. She waffs it a bit. and then she does these kind of roundhouse H roundhouse. Yeah. incredible in boot. And and then she goes like roller Girl and is like kicking him like directly in the face. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, yet again, another really odd scene If you think about how successful the film was on video, the bits that people don't like really is that rape scene. If they take the rape scene out then what are you left with? Do you think? I mean, what would be your The reason why people would want to watch it, what would you say that is like, you know, this is why it's really good Be I've read the whole film and ye Be it became incredibly popular, didn't it? And it's quite camp It's quite, you know, I would say the people that saved it was probably the gay community, you know what I mean? have taken it? Well it's a weird one because I think there are I think there's viewpoints of people who just think of this film as just a bad film like a Jilli and Ishtar, just a generally bad film like a swept away type movie. Then there's ones who think it's kind of like so bad it's good like a sort of like the room or Rcky horror even maybe. And then there's those who put it in like the classic pantheon with your Mommmy Dearest or Valley of the Dolls, or I would say the of forgotten Ferra Fawet classic the Burning Bed, by the way, find it. And then there's those like me who I appreciate that it's ostensibly a failure of a movie. It hasn't succeeded in what it was trying to do at all but it's succeeded in so many other ways. And it is a camp classic. It is so bad, it's good. But it's also just beyond that. I think what makes it for me better than something like The Room or like these kind of so bad as goods films. And I think why it becomes almost like prestige trash is where I would place it is because of how well it's made, which I think is not really talked about enough Pul Vverhoven is like an incredible director. And from the opening scenes of it, there's like crane shots in it. There's amazingensive. It looks really expensive. There's a scene where she's sat in front of the I think it's a Luxe hotel with the spphinx behind her. and it's this really low angle, wide shot of her on this bench. It looks like a fucking what's his name, Slim Eerrands or Navred L Chapeelle picture.ike it's this gorgeous I was like, that could be a poster There's shots of when Zack calls up the guy to say, Hey guy, come back here and it kind of is showing us the art Zack's a bad guy. when he ceremoniously kind of tells him off in front of Nomi and then calls him back and says, Oh just kidding. And like behind him is this volcano and he's all in this red lighting to be de there's so much actual like cinematic greatness to it and to have all of that cinematic greatness for this like kind of a useless film that kind of is trying to say stuff but also wasn't say anything at all. I think that's really hard to come. That's why I find it so fascinating. There are some people that I like really like read into it and can find Like oh some of the dance scenes represent like Ben her. like peoplead people can re you can read so much, you can read into it that is L about sort of the state of America and how America will just spit you out in the end and how this is kind of the cycle of Cath. I think that's true. And it is very verhovven as well. I think that's what makes it for me You can watch it on the face as just a ridiculous dumb film. I guarantee for me, I think you will be entertained. It's so silly and over the top and fun. But then you can also genuinely appreciate things about it and read into stuff. The fact that her name is know me. The name know me could mean like know me as then please can get to know me, or if you know me, know me, or it can mean like know me. you know, there's so much there's so much to it. You know Andrew Carver, his name is Carver, Car her, he's the rapist guy, you know, The fact that the guy Zach, because she's from playing from Zach Morris Crystal Connors, I found this, I only just thought of this when I was watching it last night, that running joke in the movie is that Nomi mispronounces a Versace and calls it for saes Crystal tells her over a glass of champagne, like, oh, I nam myself after this. She means Christelle. So she herself is also done the same thing. There's actually so many little bits in this movie that I'm sure are not done on purpose There's a reason I can rewatch it and rewatch it and rewatch it. What film do you think they thought they were making? Do you think Be because I think they thought they were making a basic game, I think they thought they were making a very serious drama thriller. And they'll try and tell you now speaking of Revigionous history. A lot of the people in it will try and claim, oh, no that Esther House will claim, Oh, no, we knew it was meant to be funny, And I'm like, you didn't No Gina Grishawn will off people will say, Ohh, Gina Grreshawn knew that it was a camp one. I think Gina Greshaan's acting as she was told to act in it. For HoVIid, it'll often say, listen, everyone says Elizabeth Berkeley was overacting. I told her to do that the whole time. But a lot of them willc claim we knew we were making a fun film. Kyle McLaughlin didn an interview like ten years ago, I think he was like, listen, whoever tells you that they knew we were doing, they're lying. We all thought we were making a very serious basic instinate. We thought we were making know a sexy thriller. That was the time of you know indecent exposure and basic instate sliver, all these ridiculous like know sex single white female. I think they thought they were making something in that echelon of a sexy thriller that was going to be taken seriously. Nothing's really. There's a few bits played for laugh. Mama Bazoom is played for laugh but everything else was meant he comes in and says, like it must be weird not to get come on yah. There are' some lines in it but it's meant to be What do you think? Well, yeah, I agree with you. I think it's meant to be serious. but also I wondered that there is an idea. if you think that he and this was an idea that was suggested to me actually by Liam, our producer. So if you think about like Verhoven and Robo Cb and the way that that is not glorified an exaggerated form of violence, right? And so when you look at the kind of exaggerated dancing, the exaggerated sex, it's like a kind of It's not real. notothing there's no kind of human. It's like hyper there. Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah. So it's a bit like it's not like a they're not robo cops, but they kind of are Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's not totally. It's not real at all. The dancing is not real. No You would never see a show But even just down to how she looks, you know, that opening scene where she's on the start ofoard hitchhiike, And like we said, she's in a polyester shirt carrying in the suitcase Her face is immaculate, like freshly applied, beautiful makeup, lip glos. She wakes up everything's like this. I know that sounds very obvious. everyveryone looks good in movies, but it's like her face is insanely made up at. She's always got perfect. everythingthing's always Yeah it's like a comic book. You know, in comic book films they just change outfits every five seconds because there ass a comic book, it's meant to be this kind of like almost surreal. It is a bit like that. It's kind of surreal how the film moves and works and doesn't seem to make any sense. And then she leaves and it's just okay. L she's just gonna get away with it. It's so odd. I do think I mean, I mean you know, there are bits that I enjoy it. I have to say it's not my kind of film. It it just isn't it kind ofck it out for taste. Yeah, you I'm so let you down But you know, there is like I didn't find it un entertaining, but it's just the dancing I found a bit repetitive after all I'll have to say. There there was a third time where I think once she got stardust and they're doing it again. I was like, we have seen this now a bunch of tim through the rehearsals and then do we get the dancec. I hear you, I hear you. Yeah Okay, Sall we talk about the reviews? becausecause the reviews are quite funny. So in the Los Angeles time, this guy called Kenneth Taran said The film has somehow managed to make extensive nudity exquisitely boring. Now I think that's quite art. I think that is. I it I think that's I think that's Verhoven making it kind of deliberately bland to kind of show how bland it actually is. Yeah. And then Roger Eber, he says it's two out of four, which isn't bad. He saysew something. Well done, Roger. Yeah s Over the top Nudity, juvenile script, No true eroticism true. However, he wrote The production values are first rate, which you've mentioned. And the lead performer by newcomer Elizabeth Berkeley has a fierce energy that's always interesting. There is one that I read, I don't know who wrote this, but someone I wrote this down and I thought it was so good. Someone described her character as hyperactive eyeliner junkie Which by the way, how Courtney Love did not make that album title for H was a mystery. But hyperactive eyelader junkie is just that's perfect. Yeah. it's funny. And he says it's trash This is still it's trash but not boring, which is true, right? Okay. Entertainment Weekly is really rubbish. So Entertainment Weekly said The exploitative heart of showgirls is that Esther House of Verhoven effectively dissolved the line between the way men in the strict world treat women and the way the movie treats them Most of the male charac characters are misogynist Dick Las, most they all are. And even the few sympathetic one are borderline ridiculous under which I've written no boohoooo. Yeah ye sereriously. I'm sorry. men sorry the men weren't good enough. That kind of make me look. But anyway The New York Times does recognize it. They say the strain of trying to make America's dirtiest big studio movie has led Mr. Verhoeven and Mr. Estherhouse to create an instant camp classic They knew, well done. They saw a head. Yeah. And in the San Francisco Chronicle, of course it' San Francis And of course it is. Edwth Ghman noted, From all the bad press that showgirls has gotten, youd think the nation's critics had never witnessed high gloss trash before It is high glass trust. Thank you. he's I knew I had my soulmate out there somewhere and we found him So this there is some really funny lines at the moment. So you know, Kalm McClucklan is now saying, oh, yeah, you know, we thought it was funny, but is he saying that now? No. at the time, this is what he says, right? So he goes to the preremiere That great quote. I was absolutely gobssmacked. I said, this is horrible.'s horrible. And it's a very slow sinking feeling when you're watching the movie. And the first scene comes out and you're like, o, that's a really bad scene. But you go, Well, that's okay. The next one will be better. and you somehow try to convince yourself that it's going to get better. It just gets worse. And I was like, wow, that was crazy. I mean, I didn't see that coming. So from that point, I distanced myself the movie. On only honest person involved is Cara Garin. he knows. Yeah. So now, of course, he says, it has a whole other life as a sort of inadvertent satire Right I don't think he says, Satire isn't the right word, but it's inadvertently funny. Yeah, I think that's true. So it's found its place. It provides entertainment noough, not in the way I think it was originally intended. was Maybe the wrong material have the wrong director and the wrong cast. Is that's all? othertherwise, every single element make a great film. Well, I think the Satire thing is interesting because Verhoven is known for Satire. That's what RobocCop was Toto Rall, Starship troopers were all these They were all satire movies. Starship was people didn't get that film when it came out. And then people realized, o, he's doing this on purpose to make fun of America It took everyone a while to sort of realize that. but it doesn't But this' a satire. It it really doesn't. It's not aat. Which watch this one? Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't. No, doesn't. It doesn't at all. So I think I think that's us Thinking, what's Verhoven, so it might be a sats not it' not I don't, 'causeuse basically instinct isn't really a satire. No, that's just all. Yeahah, this is a buind by thriller. And I think that like I said, that's this is trying to be. And I think to try and you can watchh it through a satirical lens, which cool goo for, which I mentioned before, you can make it about it, you capital you can do all that But that's not I don't think that's what the film was trying to do. And I think you're doing yourself a disservice. It's fun to have that conversation But I think it's more fun to take the film as it is. That's what I find it. when you were saying what's good about it? I was like just watch it. It's so ridiculous. It's a very's just a ridiculous, ridiculous movie that you can't believe. Dade And it looks great. it looks amazing I mean, there is a result, you know, as a consequence of this. I mean, the consequence is really dreadful for Elizabeth Berkeley, right? Oh, yeah, really. So haaving got this amazing agent at CAA, she gets dropped immediately when the film is released. Other agents won't take her phone calls. She's also she stops dancing Wh she' really this She stopps dancing. She'sominated the whole thing is nominated for thirteen Glden raspberries, which is still the highest amount of nominations ever Whereas Vhoven, who directs things, he's fine. He goes on to starthip troopers. Well, he does starthip troopers and then he does that. o man and that's kind of it. that' he won he did that was the one with Isabel Alber Ell and he got the Golden Gobe for that for B foreign film, but he essentially was sent back to Europe basically. So his career did Considering he'd made one of the biggest films of the ninetineies of Basic Instinct, let's be honest. and Social Troopers did well, but it was kind of misunderstood Ho Man. I don't think I don't I haven't seen it And he was I don't think he got away with it. I think kind of ruined his career as well, to be honest. You just say it made my life more difficult, but not to the degree it made Elizabeth. Of course, not, O of course yeah. She got the worst burnt of. Yeah.a Grhane was fine. Carl McLughlin was fine. Yeah. Carlclaughins sex and city five years later. You know, he's fine. He's completely fine. But then yeah, as we said, it becomes a kind of classic when it's on VHS. It makes over a hundred million dollars from video sales And she has said, which iss really sweet, Elizabeth Berkeley, she has said she was saved by the queer community who adopted the film for its ridiculousness. She has. And she there was they did a screening of it. I'm sure it's happened since, but there was one in like twenty fifteen. and she turned up to the screening and kind of introduced the movie and everyone was like it wass like four thousand people. and she's kind of had this lovely like community come around her And good for her for like leaning into it as well and being like, I can appreciate this film is ridiculous now. And also, you know there's her career though is still f. It's pretty dead. but I would say, so there's a recent series which I'm not sure that anybody has watched. I have watched one episode of it called Allz Fair. She makes a cameo in it Do she? Yeah. She makes a cameo in it and she's also in a Betsy Johnson clothing campaign. So I think there is a little bit of an element of essentially kind of, you know, in this case, I would say a young gay man that grew up with that kind of show Rs Ryan Murphy. Ryan Murphy. Yeah and getting into a position of power and going, you know what? I'm going to do something about this. And I do think that that can happen to people. Mike White, White Lotus, whenateever you're ready. Elizabeth Berkeley's right there away there. Okay. Just to finish, I would like to ask you, Chantal, you mentioned this as we were starting to record, when you like to watch this film and what like karmically, you think the effect of it was on? I I used to for a long time. I would watch this film by myself every single New Year's Eve. Like at the end of New Year's Eve celebrations, whenever I got home I would start the year with showgirls So I'd immediately whether it was like a quiet night, two in the morning or a big night, nine in the morning, I would watch showgirls. That's how I would start the year every single year. And then about six, seven years in, I realized that my life had really fallen apart since doing this. Like I literally got made redundant. I lost my agent, my mom died, a lot of bad stuff happens in my life. And I was like thinking, what could this be? And I was like, maybe it's showgirls And so I had to stop starting my year with showgirls and now I leave it for sort of later on in the year. I try and get at least to the spring equinox and then start watching it from then. So I don't really recommend doing that. So I think karically, as in the movie, you know, things't, I gambled, That's what they do in Vegas, they gamble, and I lost every time I recommend, but I still watch it at least once or twice a year. Yeah. Would you say it's cursed That's a very good question. and I would I' probably say it is, but in my thinking, most of the best things in the world are I think women as a whole are cursed and were the best things. So Yeah, I would think it's cursed in the best way it can, but that's what makes it so good. It's cursed by witches, what are witches? abbsolute legends. So yeah, it probably is. It probably isn't it probably it's hard to say if it's a net good for culture. I would say it probably is because there's so much to it. I think if you watch it from the right viewpoint and you can understand it in the right way and the right way, in sort of the good way, I get it. but I do think there's still an element of it seing everyone involved in it somehow You know, theres something negative has happened to almost everyone from that film and including folks like me who view it. So there is a level of it being cursed, but I think it's worth it. I think it's worth it. Okay. It's like love itself, you know, it's betteret to have done that at laoss and be het. Better to have watched showhgirls and be cursed. They're never to have watched showls. Exactly. Exactly . Okay, so here at Talk nineties to Me, we need something to dance along to while grinding up against Carl McLlachman. And we have a talkal nineties to me Spotify playlist to do exactly that. Which track would you like to add Chantal? Mine is not going to be anything to do with showgirls at all, but I had a look through your playlist and it seemed very UK based. I thought we need to get some America stuff in So much like we discussed my favorite film of all time really today, I'm giving you what is I am of the agreement that your favorite song when you were fourteen is in your Heart of Hearts, your favorite song of all time. Yeah. And this is my favorite song of all time, which is nineteen seventy nine by the Smashing Pumpkins. Okay, so No I have a slight problem with the smmashing pumpkins I just do, but that's actually quite a good to access. It's my favorite. It will be played at my funeral. I've had friends like message me for people who don't even like that much message me for Australia and been like, I haven' spoken to you in ten years where the song just came on and I thought of you,'s it going? And I'm like you never liked me, but cool. ye but you can have issues with Billy Corgan, especially pumpkins. There's a lot of issues with. but this song is a sick, sick song. I absolutely love it. Okay, great. there isn't there you A against Miranda's will There are a few in there like that That's fine. Okay, that was Taught nineties to me, featuring the brilliant Chantal Faduchin pate, excellent expert on showgirls, celebrities and red carpet outfits. We know that. Okay, where can people find you Chantal? You can find me on Instagram at Shanton Trait And also you listen to my amazing podcasts the way they were about the celebrity brereakup You Never Got Over. hosted by Gana MagGuire and myself, Grana MagGuire of SNL Fame. So yes, we come out every couple of weeks. We have a Patreon, get involved, the way they were Instagram, the way they were, anywhere you get your podcasts, come listen to us Or do a lot of stuff out there. Anone. And after every award show, by the time this comes out will have already happened. For instance, the Met Gala, after every award show, I like to do a little red carpet reviews. And so you can come listen to all. comeome read on my Instagram my reviews of all the red carpet outfits, which Miranda is a fan of. I am definitely a fan of lfort I go through every comment she makes I go Thumbs up, thumbs down. Hell. No, I need that because it is actually it's an embarrassingly large amount. it takes me like five hours to do it.akes such a long time. So the fact that you are into it is why I keep doing them around. Yes. I love it. Get involved guys. Chcing trick. come talk to me. Yeah. Okay. If you join our Patreon, not only will you get the chance to buy some very cute merch Talk N nineties T to Me mugs, long sleeve teas, bucket hats, you'll also get some special extra episodes and you might. justust might become our Talk ninetighties King or quQeen for a week. 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