Recreating the Demo Vocal Performance

Hello, welcome to Take Notes and our new episode with Holly Humberstone and Rob Milton, talking about Holly's new album Cruel World, which is out today. So make sure to give it a listen and experience the record in all its glory, maybe even listen to it first, then come back and find out how they did it. Right, now that you've done and enjoyed that, let me tell you a bit more about the conversation we had. Holly and Rob joined us at Baltic Studios in Studio two. Now we've recorded in Baltic before, but this was our first time recording in studio too, and it was such a stunning place to record. The control room and live room are all in one big space. We were sat in front of the desk with all of the studio app board around us, and it's all on wheels, so you can move it all across the room and racks of gear around. It really is a special place. So thank you to the team at Baltic for having us. Our conversation followed Rob and Holly's entire process from Holly's early voice notes, jams on the roof through to vocal layering, and all sorts of synth magic in the studio. And it's a kind of full circle experience in a way because Holly was telling us afterwards how she went to see Dog Is Dead live when she was like twelve or thirteen. Dog Is Dead is Rob's first band and uh it's I like that idea that she was there and really loved Dog Is Dead singing along to all the words and Rob was the man to help her realise her production vision and he's been working across kind of everything she's done ever since. Fantastic. I love that connection. So that is our brand new episode. As usual, we filmed the whole interview, so if you'd like to watch the full video and see Holly and Rob break down the sounds in their sessions, head over to Patreon.com forward slash tapenotes. Membership also gives you access to behind the scenes content, the chance to ask our guests questions, and entry to our monthly gear giveaway competitions. This month's giveaway is an annual subscription to Waves Ultimate, which gives you access to over 2 40 Waves plugins. All the details are on Patreon.com forward slash take notes. A big thanks as well to our partners at Tape It. Tape It have just released their brand new D noiser, which delivers instant studio quality audio by intelligently removing hiss, hum and background noise, completely preserving your sound without artifacts , available as a desktop app and a VST on a half-price introductory offer of forty-nine dollars. To find out, head to tape dot it forward slash denoiser to give it a try for yourself. But now , without further ado, let's get started. Hello and welcome to Tape Notes, the podcast that looks behind the scenes at the magic of recording and producing music. Every episode we'll be reuniting an artist and producer and talking through some of the highlights from their collaboration in the studio. So join us as we lift the lid on the creative process and the inner workings of music production to see what lies beneath . Holly Hummerston is a singer-songwriter from Grantham in England. Having written and performed music from a young age, Holly's early work was picked up by BebC Introducing. Her singles, including Deep End, released in January 2020, received extensive radio play, and she amassed a large and devoted fan base during the pandemic when the emotional honesty in her music resonated with many. Her debut EP, Falling Asleep at the Wheel, released in 2020, marked her breakthrough, quickly earning critical acclaim and launching her onto the world stage. The release led to a Brit Rising Star win and two Ivan Novella nominations, and saw Holly named Runner-Up in the BBC Sound of 2021. Paint My Bedroom Black, released in October 2023, entered the UK top five and was voted one of Rolling Stone's albums of the year. As well as several high-profile collaborations with artists including Matty Healy, Sam Fender and Bombay Bicycle Club, Holly has since toured extensively, supporting artists including Taylor Swift, Olivia Rodrigo, and Louis Capoldi, as well as headlining tours of her own. Arrived in April 2026 once again working with longtime collaborator and producer Rob Milton. Rob Milton is a musician, songwriter, and producer from Nottingham. Rob first ventured into music as a teenager, forming the band Dog is Dead with School Friends in 2008. After early EP releases and a growing reputation for their live shows, the band broke through in 2011 when Glockenspielsong featured in the hit TV series Skins. They went on to sign with Island Records and released two albums before winding down in 2016. After which Rob shifted his focus to production. Working with a number of artists in the Nottingham music scene, Rob quickly became a key figure on the production side of music. He began working with Hard Life, formerly Easy Life, producing all of their music, and since hearing Holly on a local radio station has become a close collaborator, working across almost her entire back catalogue. Rob has also shared his production and songwriting talents with artists including the 1975, Maisie Peters, CMAT, and Rachel Chinneri ri. Today I join Holly and Rob at Baltic Studios and what better way to start than by hearing something from Cruel World? This is Die Happy . In a past life we were spiders , was something real coarse and grandiose You asked if you could hold my hand forever and ever you asked me if I still believe in ghosts . Well, there's something about you So stran ge and wonderful the language that you talk there's something about you It is Die Happy by Holly Humberstone from the Cruel World album, and I'm very pleased to say that sat with me here at Baltic Studio 2 is Holly Humberstone. Hello, Holly. Hi, hi John. And alongside you is Rob Milton, who is a veteran of the show. You've been on a few times now, Rob. It's my third time. Yes. Thank you for continuing to invite me on. It's a pleasure, Rob. Thanks for coming on and great to have you here, Holly. Thank you for having us. Die Happy was the first taste of the new album. Cruel World. It's out now. We're gonna look at three songs. And it's the second album from you, Holly, and second album you've worked on together. So what did you think about making another record together? No, w was that there's something you're going to do differently this time around? I mean I feel like it's a no-brainer. We've been working together for a really long time. Um , since I think I was 17, maybe when we first like had our first session. And I mean, yeah, I guess this past year and a half has been the first extended period of time where I've just had an album to write and kind of just that to focus on rather than kind of being swept up on tour, you know. I feel like since since I came out of lockdown, it's just been like this constant amazing, really fun, but overwhelming, kind of touring just cycle. So yeah, it's been like a really, really nice nice year and a half and we've had like time and people have kind of left us alone to kind of just make the album that we we want to make. And I feel like I'm a in a different headspace than I have been before. And I've done this once before, and I kind of know the rules and know how it all works. And yeah, I just feel like I'm in a place where I kind of can take agency a little bit. And I feel like you can hear this kind of newfound kind of freedom and confidence in this album that maybe you haven't really heard too much before from from like yeah, from us. But yeah, it's been really, really fun. I feel like it's been the best the best one. Um I think you can hear how much how much fun has gone into making it. And yeah, it's time to share it, which is kind of terrifying. But yeah, really fun. I'm really excited. I really back it and love everything that we've made. So proud of us. It's been the first time that we've like had to stop and think about making something. Yeah. Before we'd make an EP and then we'd be already writing the second one before we'd even thought about it. And the first album, there's like an old saying where you just have your whole life to write a first album. And then like a couple of weeks to write album two. We've had the other week. We've had yeah we've had plenty of time to write it, but there was like there was definitely a point where we were sort of like, oh we could do a thing here. Like what should we do specifically? We can do any like kind of scarily be like we can do anything. So how do we narrow that down to something? Yeah. Cause before it's just been like, what's the next Holly Humberstone song that we make? And now it's like, okay, you've got to sort of semi-reinvent yourself here. Yeah. Um what do we want to do? Mm-hmm. Yeah. I also feel like being in your twenties or thirties is like I feel like you're constantly trying to kind of reinvent yourself and figure out who you are, and it's just like a decade-long identity crisis. So I feel like naturally it feels different from the last one. Because I think quite a lot of those songs from Paint My Bedroom Black were written like four or five years ago now. So like I think that it's like a it's been like a natural transition and yeah, I'm loving it. I'm loving the new stuff. Yeah. Excellent. Well, we're gonna hear how you created these new songs, and the first one we're going to look at is To Love Somebody. So maybe Rob, you could play us uh a blast of the Master and then we'll find out how you wrote it. Yeah, of course. So you crash into the wall You cleanin' up the broken blush Thinking what the hell is that In the movie of your life You're the first to third And the critics call the trush too bird They tell you that you feel too much You for write down to the crush, it all breaks down , it always does, it all works out, it always does the shit they say in the songs you love The greatest hits and the deepest cuz It all breaks down, it always does, it all works out, it always does To Love Somebody by Holly Humberstone from the Cruel World album, so tell us about it. You know what happened? How did this come about? What happened? I mean I feel like we came to the studio with with a sentiment. I feel like usually we we don't come with too much other than ourselves and like some some notes . Um and yeah, at the time my sister who I live with and we're extremely close was going through a very brutal breakup. And it was because we lived together, we spend pretty much all hours of the day together apart from when I'm at the studio with Rob. We're attached at the hip. And I felt like I was kind of going through this breakup alongside her because I just feel everything that my sisters feel, I think. Um and yeah, I think we just wanted to to write her a song just telling her how great she was and that, you know, like the grief that you feel now is just a measure of the love that you felt, and some people aren't lucky enough to ever experience that intensity of love . And I think it's a thing that's so hard to see for yourself when you're in the depths of like a breakup, you know. So I just yeah, I wanted to write her something that felt uplifting and affirming that this is just kind of part of the journey and life is for living and the reason that you're feeling everything is because you're a human being, you know, and that should be kind of celebrated as well. And um, yeah, we kind of went from there. We had a sort of set of rules that we'd been establishing whilst making the first tracks of this record. And like, number one was like no moaning. Um we'd done that to death. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were like at a point of our both of us were in like a sort of point of our lives where we were actually like quite happy. Which can be quite scary when you've got a writer. When you're songwriter . It can be terrifying. But um it's just like we wanted to figure out how to write from a point of view of we want to make joyous songs that were still actually interesting and that was the kind of challenge that we we put ourselves through. Yeah. I remember it being like a spring day, like really nice weather, and we just brought in uh our friend John Green to write with, who is himself a ray of light? Um I'm an absolute king. And we were having fun, like we were listening to music, we were listening to ABBA, we were listening to Paul Simon. Yeah. And we were like, what's our sort of take on on this sort of stuff. And John just hopped on on the piano and just started shredding. And before you know it, we're away. Yeah. I have a crazy voice note of just how this song was born. I must have been recording, luckily, when at the moment of conception, which is quite amazing. Um, but yeah, I think we had this like drum loop, I think, already. And then John was just bashing about on the piano and had this like had that melody, the post chorus melody, kind of some semblance of that on the piano. And we just have your phone with you. Oh I do. I've been sitting on it. Um and yeah, I've just got this crazy voice note and like we just had this conversation. Obviously, I think it's really important at the start of a session to just talk for ages about what what kind of thing you're gonna land on, hopefully. And then you can just hear Rob going, love somebody. Love somebody . Just out of the out of the darkness. Um, let me find it. It's really funny. Um I haven't heard this. You haven't heard this? Okay, this could be incriminating. Wait, I don't know if it's at the right spot either. Let me try and find it. Right. We had this drum situation. And then I'm sure I just myself . I'm doing something weird and random and then Rub comes up with something good. And we all just jump on it. 'Cause it's amazing. What you just picture the scene. I'm holding a cowbell. Yeah. Sort of whacking a cowbell. I got the big box of percussion out. Taking all your frustration out on this poor little Just whacking this cowbell, just shouting stuff. I remember sort of just shouting like to love somebody. Yeah. To hate somebody. Just like any any like any emotion that came out. Yeah. Just all sort of led from sort of John just like hitting this groove on the piano and then this little drum loop that that I put on. Um and you so it was just like a lot of cowbell and shouting from Yeah. Yeah. And also just having fun. If I continued playing that voice note, it would expose us as freaks . Because yeah, you can just hear us all going, at least you get to love somebody to love somebody, to h hate somebody and And like, yeah, I think also it was partly a bit of a joke. Like, I feel like when stuff sounds like it crosses that line of like like there's a very fine line between something that is like the worst r most ridiculous thing you've ever heard and the most cheesy thing you've ever heard and like something that's actually really amazing. Um and I feel like we're constantly walking that line. A lot of the the best ones that we write start out as pr quite funny. Yeah. And I feel like the the best sad songs are a little bit funny as well. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So if we're having like a laugh, I feel like we're sort of hitting on something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's really interesting because there are quite a few different things going on. There was intention. Yeah. So you you decided that you were gonna try and be positive and and create something with a positive vibe and meaning. Um and then kind of picking up and instantly no it's so great hearing that voice note because you all three just get straight in there and join in and latch onto the phrase and and and kind of riff and extemporise, and then suddenly you probably have a moment afterwards where you start thinking, Oh, there's something yeah really strong. Yeah, and we're all like kind of we know that that's the sentiment, and it's to love somebody, to hurt somebody we had for ages, just those two. And then it made sense to go to lose somebody. And then at some point like one of us was like, You're only human, honey. You said that. Because we created a a problem for ourselves because we had so little but we we all just knew it was it was something magical. Yeah. So it was almost like we need to like come up with a solution quickly. Like the what's the right answer to finish off the puzzle? Because it's definitely great, even though we had like nothing to really go on. Yeah. But the the race was to find something good before we got bored of it. Yeah. That made sense. I remember just being like, how do we like make the sentence make sense? You know, like to love somebody is to hurt somebody, is to lose somebody, is to know your own human honey. Like I remember this this seems so obvious what it is now because it's a song, but like it took us forever to to work out like how to say that really simple message, you know, in like a way that makes grammatical sense and like is easily digestible as a chorist, you know what I mean? Yeah. Did you want us to do that that day or was this? And then as soon as we had that bit, Holly came up with is to know your only human, honey. And it was like, Oh, okay. So it's like you love someone and then you lose someone, it's the cycle, but if you've done that, that means that you're just a regular human being because we literally all go through it. And and it I was like that's that's exactly what it's like, yes, that's what I meant. Yeah. And then I feel like what yeah and then and then once we had that chorus like we were like, well let's just tell the story and have fun and like the sentiment's there, the hard bit's done really. Um I put a ban on production after that bit and we went outside and had and just brought an acoustic guitar out. I don't know if I can't remember that. And we were just like we were like like right, let's write the verse like acoustic alfresco just like sat in outside the sort of industrial estate in Walthamstow. Just like I remember people kept him interrupting from like the pirate radio station round the corner or like the sort of builders down the road we're just like, yeah, one minute. I'm just We're onto something here. Yeah. And w wha what was why would you do that? When you could do it inside. It was a nice day and like do you know what I mean? There aren't that many sunny days in Worthamston. Um take 'em when you can get 'em and it felt it feels like a sunny song. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think scenery, I feel like a lot of the songs that we've written together are very much like this is where we are physically like. I feel like I'm very physically affected by my surroundings. So and I feel like you are. I feel like if you're a sensitive person , like that's how it is. And I feel like a change of scenery literally does wonders for for the brain. Yeah. Just a refresh. And I think limitations are just so important. And I know that if you would have left me in the studio, I'd be like trying to compress the kick drum or something, and we'd lose the thing that was like the spark that was there. So we'd go outside with acoustic guitar and, you know, we might look like sort of sort of glass debris weirdos or whatever, but um it just meant there was a ban on any other anything, like any little tempt And it's like that's fine. But you just can't start like compressing kick drums or anything or doing you know I mean I remember this melody um which happens quite a lot . Like I was trying to sing vocals over this and like trying to make up words that fit with that like du And Rob was like, you're overcomplicating it, we just need a na na na Just give the people what they want. Yeah. Um I don't know, yeah, there's something just so prim primitive and great about I just think about like it there's a summer's day and it's difficult not to think about festivals and stuff as well. And I'm just like I just want to be there with a beer with my friends just shouting. Half cut. Do you know what I mean? I don't want to have to have read the lyric book. Yeah. Yeah. To know what we're on about. Totally. Um and then I had that, and I had I've been rinsing this guy, Florian Gu ello. I've probably absolutely butchered his name, but he makes these amazing disco beats and I just had that looping forever and I had John you know make sure that we got John down and then I was like okay right words let's make sure we do lyrics like let's eat our our as and then we can have our exactly. Yeah. I think both of us have the same thoughts towards like the song is the core of everything and like the production is like obviously no disrespect bro love what you do but um I feel like at the core of everything like you need to be able to strip all the production away and have like a really strong song that can stand on its own without all of that. And I think we both feel feel that very strongly. So I think our main priority is to like get the best the best song before we go in on the production and that's just the fun bit. Yeah. Yeah. But then as soon as we got we get like a a certain way through the lyrics I'm like, right, okay, let's go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then when we're allowed to, um yeah, we're going, we're going in, I've got all of us playing synthesizers. I've you know the actual session ended up be quite ridiculous. There's like sort of ten pianos on top of each other doing different things, there's like twenty Juno 's playing different parts. There's like a hundred backing books that we should hear. So we've got the bass was really important , so I'll get that running which is really fun . And by the way, I mean after going outside and playing the guitar in the sunshine did you, come up with some verses? Was that a productive session? So so you did get some lyrics down for that and were able to come back and put them into this though. You must have been I actually remember writing the verse now outside. Yeah, I love the verses of this. I feel like would you bring in a pen and paper for that? No, no. I feel like we're we're digital, aren't we? I'd love to be pen and paper. Things change too quickly for me to do Do that that. on my handwriting's attraction. But if if you didn't have your phone, Holly. I mean how you you just gotta keep singing it to yourself to to It would go out it would go in one ear and out the other. It would be lost forever. It's happened so many times. So unfortunately I need I need the phone. I wish I could say that it was all written on a typewriter. But but I'm thinking that you didn't have your phone when you f went out with a right that you caught me in a in a quite often I'm taking notes on people's on what other people are doing. And like in conversation as well, which sounds a bit like I'm sort of stalking people. But um do you know what I mean? Like we've we've all got our phones. We're all sometimes people are like trying to trying really hard to write the lyric, but then they sort of accidentally say the lyrics in the conversation in between and try to write it because it's like you're thinking too hard. And like instinctually that's what you want to say. So I'm just picking up on what you and John are saying. And then I'm trying to fill in the blanks. Yeah. Yeah. Um but yeah I was trying to do a little sort of summary of what everyone was on about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that's so fun. So, what should we hear for the session? Yeah, well, you should definitely hear the sort of wall of June is there's a couple going there , which is so I just find this stuff so fun. I mean you had John's piano first, that was the first thing, I think. Yeah. So I've got that original drum beat with that, and then I've got bass coming in after this as well . Let me skip forward. Oh have you got your the little like doop ba doop doopa doop. Yes. That's one of my favorite bets. It's one of my faves as well. It's like the sort of radio gar ga second verse . Wow More synthes izers and is this just all you, Rob, or y this is Who's playing what? This is a mixture of I'm playing the bass here, Holly's playing some synthesizer, John's playing some other stuff, and then later down the line, Seth, who's Holly's MD and bass ist, is like playing some as well. Um I also feel like I had have had so much fun on tour with my band. Um, that the reason that this new music sounds kind of more bandy is because I'm writing with like that kind of context in mind of just wanting to like sing songs on stage with my band that I love. Um yeah. So I feel like it it kind of has that like stacked backing vocal thing that feels like a gang, you know, that like Fleetwood Mac classic thing everybody loves about them. Let me show you something else. I'll show you all the V B Vs because I think that's like the layers of B Vs I think really make this. It all breaks down. It always does. It always all of us. It always does. And it's cut. You holly layering the Yeah, so it's multiple Holly's we're hearing Multiple hollies and multiple Robs, I think. Multiple Seth's. Multiple Lawrence, my drummer, came in to do some. I can't remember if John did any vocals. He must have done something. 'Cause this nice aspect to it where at times it seems like a Greek chorus, kind of their you know, you you make a little statement, Holly, and then they kinda repeat it. But they're kind of echoing your thought process. Uh-huh. No that yeah. Like a call and response type thing. Yeah, that's what we were going for. There's some thing that I added to the intro that I thought was kind of fun, and that was using these MIDI cellos to have like some kind of weird like regal feel to like the intro. And I use this plug-in quite a lot called Roto Solo Cello . It's really fun because it's sort of you you can press press like one note and it'll do some like auto stuff. So it'll just do this kind of arpeggiator thing. So I did all that without me really doing anything. I just pressed a key. And I was like, that's that's ideal. Um and so I wanted to add to that um with some real strings and basically do the thing that took me one second and one key in the most complicated way possible as well. So I sort of found, I think it was on a tape notes that I saw Jack Antonov was talking about using Bobby Hawk as a strings player. I was like, where have I heard that n ame before? And he it turns out that he did some stuff with Jack for the 1975 that I've worked on. So I just reached out and I was like, hey, you've done some stuff that I've worked on, like I'm a big fan. Do you want to play some strings on a Holly Hummerstone song? I sent him the song and he was like, Yeah sure and in like twenty minutes sent back like the whole like a whole bunch of like, you know like, fourteen takes I think and I was like, oh thanks . So he just kind of like he did his own version of all this kind of scratchy viola I think another reference was um like arcade fire as well for this one, which is really gives gives these cellos. Yes, yeah, totally. Um anything to like we basically we've we've made a conscious decision to like we've ditched the like do you tuned rubber string guitar and we've got like the percussion box out and the congers and like the s the sort of chirpy strings and we're like, we're doing something different, like we can't make the same record again. Yeah. So it's been fun. That's been the exploration, you know? Yeah, yeah. And do you mix and process as you go, Rob? Yeah, kind of. Like with these that I'm trying to do as little as possible to make them just fit nicely. So I'm just I'm really lightly compressing. Um that plugins disabled and I didn't notice. you know what I mean? Like just lightly EQ and compressing. I don't like to use too many plugins on on stuff too early on anyway . But around first two these strings get they get really like disgusting, um, which I I really like And had you given any particular instruction with regard to how the strings were meant to sound? Yes. I mean first of all I was telling I said to Bobby sent th rough strings pr before I really had a lot to say, but I was like I like this sort of percussive element and I wanted to hear the string noise and like it just didn't it didn't need to be pristine, like we weren't looking for sort of Han Zima . Um it needs to sound like a chaotic orchestra vibe. Yeah. And um with Nina, when she came in, I was like, I need attention and release and I like I feel like just as we're approaching the chorus as well, like I really wanna feel you know, what the lyric there, you know, you wear his t shirt. Yeah, you hate his guts, you read the handbook, you take the drugs, you said from here on out, it's us. It always was. It always was. Yeah. That sort of like end of your tether. Mm-hmm. Unhinged. Oh. Mom. Exactly. So that was the sort of the brief and the gu ys nailed it to love somebody to hurt somebody to lose somebody is to know your only human who loves Because that is like then it's kind of like meat and potatoes. It's just it's a piano and a guitar like nicely. But before that there's a time where it is slightly like a horror movie. So do you know what I mean? And that's like the kind of extreme tension and release that I wanted because I wanted it to be a bit ridiculous. 'Cause I think that's where the fun is. Mm-hmm. Can can we hear that that that lyric that you gave us, Holly, with the the music . And you feel a little better This blue and green bow keeps spinning to the beat You gotta try and move your feet Gotta be boxing clear Tell you that you feel too much You bet it all on the sun and crush, it all breaks down, it always does, it all works out, it always And you wear his t-shirt, you hate his guts, you read the handbook, you take the drugs, he says, from here on out it's us. So it's interesting, isn't it? Because in some ways the idea was keep it simple, keep it straightforward. We're going after the the song and the lyric and the meaning and the intent. And you do all of that. And yet at the same time there's still uh some other stuff that you've added to help some other dimension emerge as well. Yeah, which is quite interesting. I think it's once you've caught that the fish, once you've got the the song, it's like, okay, well it's but it's now it's playtime like we tr let's try everything. Yeah. Um and like 'cause I do I just believe that the songwriting process should be like I think all the best songs that we write are are quickly writ um and instinctual. And production's a different headspace because I can spend you know hours on that and that's fine. But we're never gonna be able to step in on production and save the song before it's the song's written. Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah. You have to catch the feels for the song and just kind of go with it. I feel like songwriting is kind of a very chaotic thing. I feel like there's no real formula to it, you know? Like it's magic. I wish there was. Yeah, it's magic and like just pure chaos, like everything else. I feel like I'm also not somebody who can write songs all the time. And I feel like quite a lot of the time when when we write, we just kind of we go to the pub and we're like we're done with this like if we don't get something quickly it's like which is most days but like when you have you know when you're onto something that you really feel and that you like really love, then you've got to kind of jump on that and get the song first, you know? And then you can just have fun and throw loads of stuff at it. Yeah. It just sounds like that is gonna connect with people so well no that that chorus and what you're telling people no the the the story within those lines is is so strong and people will understand and connect so have you been able to test that out yet? Yeah, a little bit. I've done a few shows so far for for this, like for this album, but um not too many. I have some festivals this summer and I feel like a lot of the songs on this album are kind of written for festivals, like just with that context in mind. So I'm really, really, really excited for that. Um yeah, Rob, we're gonna have to get get you out. You're gonna have to come up and I'll happily play the cowbell on this. But yeah, I'm really excited. But it's been going down really well. I think it's really connected with people because you know it's such a universal thing that I feel like everybody everybody has felt or like, you know , needs to hear this okay to just feel everything and that's just makes you human and yeah. We're all in we're kind of all in this weird thing together. And it's kind of out of my jurisdiction, but it almost sounds like a really great last song to play at a show. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Just in a sort of like I can imagine people sort of nine houring sufficiently drunk by that point where they're just gonna be like, Ey now we start Yeah. I hope so. It really does have that feel though. I think I no, I can I can hear crowds shouting that back to you. Yeah, this is what we were talking about when we were writing it, we were like, this is gonna be amazing live, yeah. Is there anything else we should hear from it or maybe we should just have a blast of it all together from the end? I was gonna just show I don't I've got the percussion so that uh I feel like maybe not as interesting as I thought. Um there's the uh I'll show you the radio gargars from That was actually John on the the Sinth first of all I I can't claim credit but I think that just that was uh like a big move when he made I was like yeah that's got to respect that. I see I see I see your game and I like it. You gotta love somebody You took a ride up to the jaw So you go and brush your teeth A little powder on your cheeks And you feel a little better This blue and green bowl, keeps spinning to the bee. And claps as that's shameless. Shameless John . But um they're great, yeah. They work really well. Totally. And and do you know like Holly doing this kind of like fun thing, it's like it's it always sounds like Holly and it's just like it just makes it's the it's already a twist on on a classic when when Holly starts singing on something. So you know what I mean? Like I'm just my job is just to sort of provoke like maybe you could do that and then she just brings the magic really so not at all. Not at all. It's a collective effort. I feel like mm my job would be so boring if I didn't get to like collaborate with my friends, you know? I feel like the music would be very, very different. So yeah, I mean it's just so fun. Getting to hang out with your friends all day and like just have fun and make songs. Like it really doesn't get better. So I feel like there's no excuse but to like make happy songs at this point. Do you know what I mean? And be joyful because we're lucky to get to do this as a job, you know, and might as well have fun with it, you know. Yeah, yeah. It's a great place and great position to be in. Yeah, it is. Yeah, fantastic. Um however it, is a cruel world. It is . And that's the next song we're going to look at. We'll take a quick break and we'll be back with Cruel World . This episode is supported by Cube, the world's first member studio for artists, producers and all-round creatives. With over eighty professional studios across four London locations, Cube gives you the space, tools and community to make great music and develop your career. And today I'm joined by Nicholas Schoeniger, co-founder of Cube to tell us more. Hi Nick, what does a Cube membership do for music makers? Hey John. So look, I mean with Cube membership you get access to a whole host of things. First of all you get the studios, so you've got music production rooms, DJ studios, podcast studios, and content studios, all bookable through our app 24/7. You also get access to events ranging from networking to industry talks to hands-on workshops. We've got amazing co-working spaces that you can come and hang out in, bars where you can socialise, and really the whole ethos is to bring like-minded creatives together and inspire each other as well as have a professional space to work. All of this happens across our four London locations in Hackney, Elephant and Castle, Canary Wharf and Acton. So if I'm a music maker and I've outgrown my bedroom studio, or maybe I'm someone who just needs access to a space with professional gear, how do I get involved? Super easy, just head over to the Cube website and apply for a membership. Application takes a couple of minutes. All we look for is a certain level of talent. You know, we're not looking at how many Instagram followers you've got. We just want to see that you're serious about your craft. And then you know in terms of once you come into the cube community you,'re going to meet a whole host of people, whether it's people that are just starting out on their career but are super talented, through to people that have got platinum cuts. Really we're about people that are always looking to up their skills and collaborate and be inspired by by people around them. And how does the membership work at Cube? What are the options? So we get that everyone's needs are different. So we have different membership tiers with varying studio hours included. It starts from £145 a month. And for the tape notes audience you can double your studio time. Just use the code TAPENONETES 90 when you apply in the How You Heard About Us Field. Then if you release a project made at Cube within the first ninety days, we'll even gift you your studio time back. Wow, that sounds like a great offer. Thanks, Nick. So if you're looking for professional studio space across London, head to thecube.com. That's theqUBE.com. And don't forget to use the code TAPENONotes ninety. T's and Cs apply . The next one we're going to look at from Cruel World by Holly Humberstone is Cruel World. But before we do that, um we ask our Patreon subscribers to come up with questions if they have any. We've got a couple that we'd like to ask you now. So one is from Robbie who says Rob plays so many instruments on Holly's records, guitar, synth, bass, percussion, but Holly also plays piano, guitar, vibraphone, tambourine. When you are both in the room and you can both play the part, how do you decide whose hands end up on the final recording and has that changed over the years? Oh I feel like neither of us are like precious about playing on the record . Do you know what I mean? It's just like who's better at playing this part? I feel like generally if it's guitars, like Rob is so much of a better guitarist than I am. And if it's synths he likes to let me have my fun on the synths and go a bit crazy. But what do you think? It's like who's best qualified at the time. It's like we're not like neither of us is like virtuosic on the piano or anything. So it's usually like have you got if you got the hang of it. Yeah. So it's like okay, then you do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We figure it out. We fake it till we make it, I feel like on the piano. Yeah. But when we've got John, it's a different story, but when it's just us Yeah, we is is John piano at first. Oh yeah, he's great. He's great. Serious pianist. Yeah. Which is neither of us are. So yeah, we're just hopping about on instruments and like like a lot of the records is like especially with the first album, it would just be like what's down and recorded for the demo is probably it. So it was whoever was playing it when they were writing it probably is on it. I think. Yeah. But yeah, it it changes. I feel like none of us are none of us are precious. Yeah. Yeah. And um that results from the communication and the friendship and uh feeling comfortable with each other. Brilliant lovely fist bump there. Um and William has been in touch and says, Holly, I really love how your productions are embedded with rich sonic textures. I would love to learn if there are either long term technical and or creative inspirations behind these choices. Ooh, ooh, this is an interesting one. I mean , let's think. I mean, this is also a Rob question as well, because Rob's more of the prod guy. Um, but yeah, there's lots of long-term kind of inspirations behind the music. I feel like we have a couple. I mean, I was raised on like a amazing amazing music. I feel like I I love 80s music and stuff that's synth heavy, obviously. Like I said, I feel like we're always referencing like Fleetwood Mac . That we've referenced. What do you think, Rob, if you've got Yeah. Can you repeat the second part of the question? Yeah, um, are there either long-term technical or creative inspirations behind the choices. No . Yeah. Um what one I think is like what's important is like when we've we've been working together like such a long time. So we need to find like fresh inspiration, like from different places. We need to be like coming out from different angles so that we don't just like do the same thing. Yeah, and sit and just mess around or go to the pub. Yeah. So we like it's important to keep it fresh, but it there's always a through line because of like our sort of up creative upbringings or whatever. But it's like important to just like keep finding a fresh ang le, whether that's like lyrically or like sonically or whatever. So and that's like daily as well. Do you know what I mean? Like if we've been playing the piano too much it gets boring. If we've been playing that synth too much. So it's like how do we like keep it fresh? Yeah. Because like I'm not gonna impress you with like I I've gotta work harder to impress you because you've seen all my tricks. Yeah, yeah, same, same, same, same. Same. I've heard your melodies. Yeah, yeah. I've done them too many times. Yeah, that's a tough tough question. Yeah. We also most of the time again we're just sort of messing about. Yeah. I'll be honest. Yeah. We're just having fun with it and messing about and I feel like music is n't serious. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it is music, it's supposed to be fun, and it's not supposed to be like I mean, I appreciate like technically intricate music, but also personally I I'm just here to have have fun. Here for a good time. Here for a good time, not a long time. And make what sounds good. Do you know what I mean? And go follow that. Rather than thinking about it like the technicalities too much. I feel like you've just kind of gotta go with what feels good. Yeah most. Uh the perceived depth of the whole the the you know the question. Sorry to let anyone down the back ties in with Paul McCartney's mantra, which is you play music, you know, the key word being play, you know, you have fun. And you play around. That's good. I like that. Cruel World is the next song we're going to look at, and maybe we could have a blast of the master. Let's do that. Say it back . I'm not telling you , baby back . play it cool . I'm sure kisses and feedback Everybody's getting close, taking off each other's clothes Know the way you ought to know It's a cruel world With a truth, baby Sugar, don't you be running away for long place ? Let's get you moving and get caught in the rain Just a little taste of True World by Holly Humber Stone. Um and I can hear the Fleetwood Mac that you've been referencing in our conversation. Oh definitely the start of that anyway. Yeah, totally. I'm glad you heard that. Yeah, well, you know, can't go wrong. Uh-huh. Literally, literally. No, I love that. So tell us about Crew World. How did this come about? I mean it is it's as random as as the the last conversation we looked at. Um we were hanging out with our long-term collaborator, Ben Lefwich, and I don't think there's any particular conversation of any depth about lyricism or like s sometimes like Holly and I like to have a title first and we like to be like really conceptually quite tight about like what we want to talk about. This case was just just not not the one. We were listening to a lot of Fleet with Mac. I was had Tango and the Night on quite a lot and the seven wonders that I was like some of the percussive elements are like super fun. Um why are we not doing that kind of did you know why are we not using like congas and why are we not doing that thing? So I just had a little little conga loop on the go, which was this guy. Is that one you recorded yourself or was it taken from No, it's from uh Sprise. That was the spell. And time stretched. I've got no shame in that. But it's actually like not that interesting without some of the some of the plugins on here I think . I think one of the main elements that helped the groove was this AMS like a proper like 80s reverb And then you're already in a good mood at least. Do you know what I mean? Like there's not a lot to go on. But you can't be too sad. And then I had another Florian Gre o lupon , which I found, which was actually really slow . So I sped this up to a thousand times faster and I've got the equivalent of what we've done on the latest drums here. So that was basically going through yeah . And then we had those congas on the go . And then one other element to kind of spark some kind of um some kind of inspiration was this I have this fun toy called The Organelle, which is by Kritta and Guitari , which is like this super fun little box that is way above my pay grade in terms of what it does. It can do all kinds of cool stuff, but there's basically like one holly humberstone sound that that I could make it do and it's like this kind of like Arpy thing. We must have used that on like loads of stuff, right? We'd d we've used version yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty much. But um I managed to make it do like one slightly different thing that it doesn't do . Is that played in or is it a plug-in or so it's like this small little rectangular box. A lot of people have the pocket piano, which is kind of similar but a bit different. It's got those wooden round keys. And I'm just holding one chord for this thing . And then I've got a delay on it. And then I love this plug-in, sound toys, hand man . That's just like going around the ears , bit of tape on it feeling something feeling a little bit more. And had you done all this before the session or was this all while you were having your chat with Ben and Holland. This was just I just brought up a few elements. I was thinking about sometimes I'm listening to stuff on the um on the tube when I'm out and about in the mornings and and that kind of filters into what I feel like sort of bringing up into sessions later in the day and I think yeah I had like tango in the night on like I said and we didn't know really know what we were gonna do that day. 'Cause again, like we were so f like Holly and I are quite familiar, so it's nice bringing someone fresh in. But Ben's also part of the old school crew. So we do have like a tendency to sort of just mess about. You sort of need like a sort of teacher figure in the room sometimes to set some rules. Exactly. So um yeah, we didn't really know what we're doing and so we're just jamming on this drumbeat um congas and I think I maybe was on the piano. Yes as well. I think. And then I remember I think I had Cruel World, just the title, in my notes. I found an old note from twenty twenty three, which has weirdly got bits of to love somebody lyrics in as well. Um and it just says Cruel World at the the end of the note and I feel like maybe maybe I was thinking about just titles that I'd had that I really liked the sound of. And then I remember coming up with the chorus with you and then like you started doing this counter melody, the like crew world over what I was doing , and then it all clicked into place and I was like, I love this. This is amazing. Um couldn't maybe we could hear those two bits together. Oh yeah. So I mean I have a voice note. Do you want to hear that? Cool, yeah. Yeah. Let me find. Here we are. Let's try it. Let's try it from the start. Right. And then you don't want to hear the rest. But it was just that I think that I was like, that's enough to go off. That's enough of a bit of a song for me to get excited and be like, I love I love this song and it's not even written yet. Yeah. I like the simplicity of the lyric as well and like yeah, it's cool. It was fun because it almost seemed like too easy. Um it's a cruel world without you baby. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. No, I think that's why it's good. Yeah. There was a lot of alternative lyrics that we were circling for a while. It was like without you in it. And then it just sounded weird saying in it, I think. In it. Yeah, in it. It's a cruel world without you in it . Um so yeah, and then we just surrendered to baby because it's a classic. Yeah. And then I know I remember there being like lots of sorry. Oh, that's all right . Um I remember there being lots of alternate lyrics for the chorus as well, like people are dancing but you're so far away and uh And then we always had Wherever You Are Is My Favourite Place But yeah, I love like scrolling through the notes and seeing like the alternative lyrics that just were so bad that didn't make it. Or people are dancing but we're covered in rain. That was another one. I mean yeah. I mean yeah like I'll I'll show you the um the core response thing 'cause I think what I've got as well is when we actually came come to record it, I thought in a sort of fleetwood way, I thought it would be cool to get like members of Holly's band so that we have different voices. So you can hear Holly on there, you can hear Lauren uh and Seth. Jack didn't make unfortunately. But um I I stepped in on uh on some stuff but and it's a cruel world without you , baby it's a cruel world . No sugar, don't you be running away for long place ? We're hand in hand as the band starts to play . Wherever you are is my favorite place And it's a cruel world Without you that you're needing close to me So how are you arranging all of those? I mean are you doing that in the moments? Did you strike them right? You say this, you say that. I mean there's like probably the most amount of backing vocals I've ever recorded on this . So was chaos. Like Holly's used to doing like The moment don't we? We build them. So we'll be looping loop it constantly. Holly's got got like you know, there's like twenty layers of Holly doing like one one note or whatever. It'll be like cruel world . It's a cruel world. And it'll just go like that'll loop on and on in a monotonous way. And it'll build up eventually to something. And so yeah, I'm s sort of trying to it's I'm trying to figure out where everyone's range is. Because Lauren can sing really high, so she has these like really fun little high whimsical notes or whatever. So we're just trying stuff. But then when we find it we're like, right, okay, can you do that over and over again? Um trial and error rather than kinda map it all out beforehand and say right. Exactly. Yeah. And because like when there's quite a few of us in the room as well, when we're jamming round, like Ben and I were like singing harmonies while Holly's singing and we're like, ooh oh, that's cool. And' whatever. Lets get that in. Yeah. And then, you know, just layering. There's something that just feels so good about harmonising with your friends. I don't know. It's like connection on another level. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It feels ancient. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Um so yeah, it's always the funniest part when we've kind of written the song and we've recorded it, especially if it's like a good song and we love it. And it's the end of the day and we're just adding the finishing touches and we get to just spend like an hour just stacking harmonies and just coming up with like the most like lush sounding sta ck um that like you, know , resolve and like clash and then resolve again and like yeah, it's just the the funnest part of the day is just getting to like put some colour into the track. Yeah. Would you have already recorded your lead vocals? I think I'd had at that point, yeah. And when you th do those, what's the process? Uh the process is just singing section by section, I think. Section best. And no, we're like quite comp heavy. I think we like to be like quite meticulous. Mm-hmm. Because you don't like to I don't like to use like a lot of tune or a lot of melodyne on Holly's vo cal. So but we like to take a a long time about how we're gonna say each word. Yeah. So we do like the details and the inflections I feel like are you can have fun. Do you know what I mean? So each line has a different expression according to the meaning of the line. Yeah. I think we're very deliberate in the way that each each even down to the word, like we we're meticulous with with the way that we record Do you want to hear some of the lead vocal? Yeah. Baby. Let's go. Not just that one word. We actually redid the first line because we w thought it was too like bit too square. Oh really? Two teachers pet. Exactly. We put it. We re-recorded it at a slightly later date. Say it back . Sounds a lot more desperate than it used to be. I play it cool . I'm gonna show kisses on a feedback cli p . And now the lights are getting low, miracles and pheromones . I can be a social hang grenade, tick, tick, tick, tick, boom. And everybody's getting close, taking off each other's clothes. No one the way you are tonight So on your door you've got different lines on different tracks. Are they each being processed differently? Slightly. I've got um I've got some that are running into a little bit of tune because I want it to do a certain a certain thing and because I like the take that Holly's used. I've got some that I've got different echoes on shout-out sound toys again. Like what's this one? Hey yeah yeah, hey yeah yeah. It's a real cruel world, my baby. And I think it's just my qu my way of like quickly automating things as well. I'm like I think in the process I would be like the way you're delivering this like needs to be quieter or louder and that I don't have to hit the compression quite as hard. But that's probably me being lazy and not just automating the And and would you have recorded the well no because you're you're doing each line separately and then you would put it into a separate track? No, so like this um I've actually bounced this in place, but usually they'd be like a big take folder and there'll be like twenty twenty takes of a small amount of it. Yeah. And then we'll pick there might be one that's strongest, and then we'll pick like little little bits off that one and comp that. Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So we're we go quite in on it. Yeah. But I think it works. And is this something that you're doing together as you're going through the mix? So you're kind of thinking, oh well it would be nice if that contrasted with that previous line in this It's funny, I didn't really realize we did this, but you know when we had Joe um come in a session the other day and and we were just cutting some vocals and Holly's boyfriend was was there and he was like sort of said that you guys like have like a sort of unspoken language that when you're like cutting vocals because I think we just know what's expected of each other. Yeah, like okay, we're gonna do that because of that, yeah, yeah. ' I think were thinking the same thing most of the time in the studio. We're speaking the same language. And we're looking for yeah, like we're so lyric centered, like that it it's like, are you saying that lyric the way that someone would say it if they were feeling that emotion. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I think that's why we had to go back to that first verse 'cause it was like, well it doesn't sound right desperate enough. It just sounds like you're Yeah. Just saying the words without any emotion behind them, which doesn't translate I also find it really fun as we're going through recording thinking of little little counter melodies like on the second verse of the like yeah yeah yeah you know that little there, like it's just fun to add like little random bits of colour and little random bits of detail. Yeah, we sort of have a no-judgment rule. It's like if you think of the idea, get it down. If it's bad we could don't have to do it. But um that's like a that's a trust thing. Mm-hmm. 'Cause that means that we can both ask each other to do stupid stuff, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there's anything particularly hilarious in this one. It's interesting because it it means that every time we listen to the song we hear something different in it that we might not have noticed the first or second or third or tenth time. Totally. All these little details which you know keep giving, you know. It's very nice. Oh, thank you. One of my favorite little details in this song is the the little talking heads kind of reference thing, um that you you came up with Rob in the chorus and it's just like the best detail in the song That's like in the middle of the course of cruel the synthesizer the Korg ARP twenty six hundred, which is the most complicated piece of equipment that I've ever owned. They used it in the making of Star Wars. I believe it was like R2D2's voice was basically like this thing. It was kind of like sat in my studio phase as I just like sort of would look at it from time to time and hopelessly. Um I managed to like make it actually make a sound one time and I was delighted and it was it was this sound. It's a good sound. Yeah, so it was worth it. Um Um you got that one sound of it out of it, so that was enough. Yeah and you're saying that's talking heads it like this must be the place . Yeah. We spent ages like trying to find the right thing. Yeah. Um that's accompanied by two other on the Artoria DX seven and that one that's just like silly . I remember playing because Ben didn't actually hear like a very like distinguished version of the song. He had like he hadn't really heard after writing on day one because we had like quite a big break between actually finishing off and I sent it and he was just like that synthesizer, that's savage. You can't do that. It was like but obviously do it. This is this is Ben Left which yeah yeah he he loved it and I was like okay if if it's got a reaction out of Ben then it's a winner . Yeah and um I really enjoyed using this this DX7 um labelled one of them TX7 stupid. So I'm really intrigued to hear what that is as well . Oh, it's a sort of like documentary marimba sound that's kind of fun. But at the end of the song it gets kind of hilarious . And is is that still in there? That's let me put that in context because there's a few things that that happen at the end. Which and I was listening to a lot of like Peter Gabriel at the time as well in the as um Sledgehammer trying to do like what would he do on in the present day. Exactly, so that's why I sort of had these kind of things going on . Which feels like a really goofy advert for something. Uh These are a bit more serious . Which is me distorting uh profit my profit five. And uh have there been occasions when you've spent time doing that and played them to Holly, and Holly's like, what are you doing? There's been times in the session where I've been like I wish he would just like give up on that like what is so good about that thing that he's l clearly very obsessed with taken with. What do you mean? But I feel like most of the time I'm like I trust the process at this point like he hasn't let me down too many times. I gotta trust the process. Trust the process, trust me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm on to something. It's interesting. I think with regard to the song, those sounds give it a a a brighter, happier feel because that's uh lyrically you're kind of saying it's a cruel world without you. You know, it could be dark and a disaster, but somehow there's some ray of sunshine somewhere. It that's that's what I'm getting from the music choices, those little details. Yeah, to me it feels like I mean it's the title track. I feel like it's a song that fully just summarizes weirdly. Not that we were thinking about this when we were writing it, but it does kind of summarize the overarching theme of the album, which is like you know, like love is this inherently painful thing at its core, and you can't separate out the the high highs from the low lows, they're all kind of mixed up in this weird kind of like confusing concoction of emotion. And I feel like this is what this song is to me. It's like feels like yearning and yeah, weirdly matched with this really kind of sparkly, kind of pop, like optimistic like sound to it. Um, which I feel like my favourite songs are always those songs that sound really like fun and poppy and like yeah, they're matched with these kind of like darker, kind of bit more cutting lyrics. I feel like to me that's the perfe ct recipe. Um yeah, I love this song. Excellent. Um we're gonna look at a third song and take a quick break, but let's have a blast of the ending of Cruel Worlds. Cruel wolf with a cheer, baby Oh yeah, it's cruel . Should I be rolling away It could be real cute if this time you stay So um we've had a look at two of the songs from the album. We got Beauty Pageant on the way, in complete contrast to these two, um yeah, looking forward to hearing what you've got to say about it . This episode is being supported by Mate Noise Pro Audio, the UK's go-to retailer for used studio equipment. From NEV preamps to vintage 1176s and everything in between. Microphones, compressors, consoles, drum machines, outboard units, make noise pro audio, cover it all. Alongside used gear, they also sell new products from established brands such as ATC, Solid State Logic, Franklin Audio, and many more, making it the one-stop shop for all your gear purchases. And if you need to free up space in your studio or fund your next purchase, make noise will buy or part exchange your old gear. With next day delivery and free UK shipping on the majority of products, you can get your hands on new studio essentials and toys in no time at all. And as a tapenotes exclusive, they're offering listeners a 10% discount on all gear from Franklin Audio. So to find your next studio favourite, head over to make noiseproaudio.com and use the code TAPENOTES10 to access your 10% discount on all Franklin Audio products . The next one we're going to look at from Cruel World is BeautyPageant. So maybe we can have a blast of the master, Rob So it star ts with a girl and a bar , and she's singing from the heart, glitter curtains, sticky floors , she would die for the applause . Twenty-five, still alive you'll find me chronically online draw my teeth, I'm good to go . Cause I'm too young , too sad , too numb to give them a strike a pos e. I'm ready. Come on and make me pretty , this stage is yours . Don't forget to have a bond day. I'll make you love me . Come on and make me pretty It is Beauty Pageant by Holly Humberstone, the closing track to the Cruel World album. I guess where does this start? I mean this is so different to what we've heard so far. Mm-hmm. It is. I feel like sonically lyric,ally , such a complete departure from anything that we'd ever really made before. But yeah, we wrote this at Decoy Studios, which is like this kind of writing retreat studio near Ipswich, I think. It was one of the last ones to be written from the album, I think. And we just kind of needed a bit of a change of scenery, so we got a whole band band of of merry men together and me and went to yeah, went to decoy for like two weeks and this I didn't realise. We wrote on one of the days and I didn't realize it was special um until after the trip was done and my manager was like, this song is like insane . Um and yeah, and then we had the hard task of trying to redo the the demo vocal that was a whole thing but yeah I really loved this song I feel like for me I I write a lot about like obviously about like mental health and things like that. Um but I don't know. I feel like being being a woman obviously is is my whole thing and I've grown up just around girls all the time. You know, I have three sisters and I went to an all-girls school. I really didn't have any like rows in my life until I started working with Rob and my manager, like apart from my dad and my cousins, like no m ale energy at all. So yeah, I don't know. I feel like obviously writing rooms are majority men heavy. I'm never really in the situation where I feel like it's the right time to kind of to bring up that I want to write about this because this is on my mind, but I felt like it was a safe space and there was like a gorgeous pond outside with like swans and I think just as soon as kind of it was it Mat Matazara kind of played that like the twinkly kind of melody and I just felt like it was I wanted to write about yeah being being a girl and how kind of prettiness and having stamina and showing up every day with a smile on your face and being able to perform constantly is seen as currency. And it's definitely not the same for for men . And yeah, it just felt like the right song. Again, I feel like we didn't want to write complainy song because I have nothing to complain about. But I do think that it's important to kind of to show that there's there's a huge difference in how I'm presenting myself, you know, on stage, and then you know, when the curtains close and everybody goes home and you're kind of alone in the dressing room, that's a whole a whole nother story, you know. Um, everybody is kind of showing the best sides of themselves, whether that's online or like wherever. And I think it's not always as glamorous as people people think, you know? So yeah, that's kind of a little bit about the subject matter behind the song. And yeah, I guess there's kind of a theatrical element to it. And we just we did have a lot of fun writing it as well 'cause it was so different from anything we'd made before. And so is there a demo at Decoy? Is that what you did at the end? Yeah, so I'll sort of set the scene up. We basically decided we'd do our version of like a writing camp. Basically, Holly and I were sort of camped out at this place in Suffolk, and then we'd have like a few of our friends like come down and it'd be like usually it would be Holly and I and then like one person or one other person. But I thought it would be kind of jokes and kind of like unorthodox for us to like have one part of it where there were like way too many people there. Um and so there was like about six or was there six of us writing this song? And it's probably like a couple too many really to write a song, but I I thought'd treat it as like a sort of like corporate weekend away. Organised fun. Yeah. And run like sort of workshop rooms just for like a small part of this trip. And that failed like spectacularly. So we just actually all ended up like getting drunk and playing Mario Kart a bunch. And but then all six of us in a room managed to come up with this somehow.. Mm-hmm And then yeah, I'll play you with a sort of where we got to at the end of the day. But it was written fairly quickly. I think I was playing some chords with Ben Lefwich in the morning, just sort of jamming a few bits. Um and we were lucky that we had sort of virtuosic pianist in Matt Zara who was there. Um it's a good thing about having so many people, like we have a lot of skill sets. So he was able to like take over and actually play it properly for like interpret what I was trying to do tr.ying to Right. Okay. Do do you have the bit that you did? And then the bit that he did. That would only be on like voice memo. Right. That's a collector's eyes. Yeah. Um but um I'll play you Matt's piano though because it's like I kept the same thing in the demo because his playing was so great and also one of the things with this song is because it was constructed so quickly and based around a vocal performance like a lot of the timing is like really out the window. Uh it was to click, but sort of like, you know, we're in and out all the time because we're just sort of led by had Matt playing the piano in one room and Holly doing the vocal in the other room and they're just instinctively like going off each other. And then that made trying to recreate it incredibly hard. So I can play you um Matt's piano. Just sort of giving you know sort of life on my as kinda my way sort of jam, you know. It's kind of like I feel like I'm not much of a musical theatre fan, but this kind of crosses that line a little bit, do you know what I mean? It's got that kind of whimsy about it. One thing that I've found was funny, um I like to sort of watch a lot of like trash TV um to sort of like decompress after sort of sessions and stuff. And like I think one point it was something like what's one of those like toddlers and tiaras or some MTV sort of classic. And I think I just wrote down Beauty Pageant in uh on a notes app like 'cause uh based on purely like these kids in a beauty pageant. And when we were sort of messing around, I was like, does this does this like was this mean anything to you? Yeah. Without having like any meaning on it. And Holly had sort of found meaning in that in the sort of like competitive nature of being a woman in the modern world and having to constantly sort of sell yourself. Yeah. Um Yeah. And the words did the words come when you heard the music or had you already got those words? I think this song actually didn't take that long to write, but we wrote it on the day in the session, like with Matt playing. I have a voice memo of us just kind of messing around with just lyrics. And I think it was one of those that felt like a song already. And everybody was just scribbling stuff down. And I think in the end, it was just about piecing all of the amazing bits that we all kind of knew what what the point of the song was and what the message was. And yeah, it was just about piecing the pieces together, I think. But a lot of it just kind of sounded like like this, like Yes. Do you know I mean like I love Ben just going, yes. That's sort of his role in the room. Cheerleader. Yeah. I feel like sometimes when when a song feels super inspiring or like a piano part or those chords just felt super inspiring and I feel like it's easy to write lyrics with somebody playing and in a room being able to kind of like bounce off everybody. And again, it's like a safe space where like 90% of the ideas that come out of people's mouths are like really not usable, not good. But like, you know, that ten percent is like magic. Yeah. So yeah, it's about it being a safe space and you feeling comfortable to just shout what is in your brain. Yeah. Um and yeah, without fear of judgment. But yeah. Yeah, I love it. There's an awful lot more to it musically. Oh, yeah, there's a lot to it. That's the thing. So we need to dig into that. And it's interesting that in some ways, you know, when you listen to it on the album and the initial impression, because it's just voice and piano, and you think, oh, right, this is just Hollyana doing this. And yet it came out of the most group uh writing activity. No, so the tons of because it's so I was gonna say stripped back, but it's not stripped back as we will learn now, but it in some ways it is stripped back because it's just voice and piano. But then there's all this extra stuff. Yeah. I mean we we kinda had this issue that we've made the demo and then sort of played it to people and they were like, this is gre at, this is kind of done. But then it wasn't actually finished. But I was like, oh, we've got a problem here, because like demo itis is like set in like immediately. And it's like, but we know that Holly knew that it's not the vocal she wanted to keep. It was bad. So it was like I was like three beers down, like getting frustrated that I couldn't reach that high note, just screaming, like I think it was towards the end of that retreat, and I was kind of like, bit bit done done, , not gonna lie. I was so tired, I just wanted to go to bed. I feel like you guys, it was one of those classic ones where I could see through the glass of you guys having fun in the other room and I was just like, I can't believe I've gotta sing like the hardest song that I've ever made right now. I'm so lashed. But that kind of also feeds into the like unhinged kind of nature of the song as well. So I feel like that's why people liked that demo because I was I sounded like sick of life. So carry on. No, it was just maybe just like two on we needed to like channel that, but with like you know, fresh holly. And like almost sometimes I think that if you're singing the song like too close to writing it as well. Like you can do that thing that is kind of seems like an actor like reading a script. Do you know what I mean? Rather than like really feeling the lyrics. So it just needed like a minute out, but I was like, I knew I was up against everyone being like, I think it's already good. Like, don't move they're like, obviously you've got to change it, but don't touch it. And I was like, Oh my god, like how do I how do I deal with that? But um, so it was like, this is like a performance for Holly, you know what I mean? Like I don't think you've had to like sing like this before. No, I've had to do a couple times live as well already, because of it's gonna be like the single on on album release and I know I'm gonna have to perform it in some scary places, and it's the hardest thing ever, and it's kind of a bit of an embarrassing song. And do you know what I mean? It's a bit embarrassing to admit all of these things that I feel. And it's just terrifying. I mean, every time I've played it, maybe twenty times live now, and each time I'm I'm scared to death, like I'm doing some sort of recital at school. But they say that you know you could should do something scary every day. It's good for me. It's good for maybe it's good for your hollywood. N toot be too comfortable. But we need to hear how how it changed and developed. Yeah, totally. I mean the original demo, I'll play you a little bit of that if you're happy for me to do that. Oh please. It's the same piano and then a bunch of new stuff basically. So it starts with a girl and a boy and she's singing from the heart with a curtain, sticky floods . She would die for the applause . Twenty-five, still alive. So that's the demo vocal. So then that maybe we should switch to the switch out next section out. So it star ts with a girl in a bar and she's singin' from the heart, glitter curtains, sticky floors , she would die for the applause twenty five still alive you'll find me chronic ally unlike a few less beers. But how many times did we have to redo this vocal? I feel like we did it so many times. Yeah. Too young , too shit , to none to give them a strike a poise I'm ready Come on and make me pretty The sta ge is yo make you love me com on and make me pretty Yeah, it's like a a serious performance, you know, and it it took a minute and it takes a lot out of you, but I just uh I s sort of did you dirty by like refusing to lower the key. 'Cause it was just like be like it's okay to be. Yeah. There's a moment in one of the voice notes where Rob is like higher, higher And he's like take it higher, take that melody higher and I'm like I can't go away . But yeah, I feel like it's good to be pushed. It's all good being, you know, I don't actually have to do any of that. I just I just shout stuff. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Meanwhile I'm literally. Exactly. But yeah, no, so we were sort of the difference between, you know, having the time to take the song away was like that we could talk about like huge layers of backing vocals in small I like doing the thing where I'm like sort of layering up huge amount of vocals for a small uh amount of lyrics and then there's sort of ooze coming in midlands anymore. Which is kind of funny because it says Midlands anymore. Yeah. We're also both from the same town in the Midlands. Um Lover Midlands reference, of course. So it's like the lyric is like you're not in the Midlands anymore. Our trash, I can't Oh, another fun thing is I wanted some clarinets on the song and to top my head I was like I'm pretty sure Dodie plays the clarinet. So I hit up Dodie and she was like I she was like in the most grueling like album campaign. She was like please don't tell my manager but yes, I'll sneak off and do you these clarinets. Really cool. Yeah, lovely. Maybe maybe she found it a relief. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was like, this is exactly the sort of thing that I shouldn't be doing right now. I've got but it sounds kind of fun. So because there's a lot of different instrumentation in the kind of second half of the song. Yeah. Um talk us through it, Rob. Yeah, so orchestral bits, you know, like we had we hadn't really worked with um a string arranger before in terms of like you I was the way that I spoke about on to love somebody on some of the other tracks, it's usually like me explaining to someone either remotely or just like one on one in in the studio and would be like, Okay, right, can you try this? Can you try that? Can you try that? But we had Rosie Danvers come in and it was such a nice process actually 'cause she sat down and Holly basically like sang a bunch of stuff at her and she was like this is cool. So sang a few melody lines. Yeah, I wanted the like uh so the chorus melody is like too young, too sad . And I wanted like I heard du Some sort of arpeggio type thing with the strings. And I sang that at her and then she she went crazy. Yeah, she really brought it to life and I didn't know whether it would be like intimidating working with because neither of us are like sort of classical background. Well you play did play a bit of violin at the start. I don't want to shame you actually um but like I certainly am I'm not like I don't know a great deal of like techie music stuff so I did'nt know whether that experience would be a bit sort of humbling but it was actually the opposite and then getting to have your sort of day at air studios with you know all these people turning up who are like super like you know overqualified to play our stuff like serious viola, violin, cello players is like a real treat. Such a treat. You're like, wow, this is like music as well. And they' come in and theyre just so professional just like nailing your tune and you've never you've met them um and they played yeah I'll play a little bit of what they do That's the Holly Lamb. There you go. To me, I feel like those strings just make it feel like so magical and like it's from an old film soundtrack, do you know what I mean? From like the thirties or something like that, which kind of fits with the the sentiment of the song and yeah, I feel like this song in particular really kind of fed into the creative of the album and gave me a lot of inspiration for for that as well. So yeah, I love this. I love this song and these strings. I'm very grateful for Rosie. Bye- I'm too young , too sad , to dump to stand a chance. So strike opposite I'm ready . Come on and make me pretty this is what you wanted after all. Just don't forget ever ybody. I'll make you love me. Come on and make me pretty I won't stop until you love me come on and make me pretty beautiful. It's almost to me as if you know the the way it expands with the string arrangement kind of mirrors the the idea that there's a story going on about a a little girl growing up and doing the thing that she loves but struggling with it and then as she gets older coming to terms with the idea that actually, you know, I still that's still what I love and I want to do it and I feel I need to do it and that it's almost as if the the grandiosity of the strings you know impli well this is all my interpretation implies the the that journey and and growth of the human, you know, becoming older and learning about life and the cruel world that we live in. Exactly, and reaching some kind of uncomfortable kind of acceptance at the end of it. Not that I'm uncomfortable, but like yeah, I don't know. I feel like I really I love this song because I feel like yeah just so emotionally tied to it and yeah, I love it all. It's amazing. I think that's a really good summary of it, John. Yeah, I think that's an amazing. I'm gonna put it back myself to be honest. Nothing to add. Feel free to no rego to take that. I will be doing that. I'll be taking that. Um we have a couple more questions, but we should have a blast of the ending of the song with everything in it. One day I'll make you love me come on and make me pretty I pray that one day I'll turn and face the mirror with a smile You're gonna crush it, sweetie And the original piano is that still the same all the way through? Still the same piano. Like I said, that was the foundation , so it would be really hard to recreate it because that was dictating the tempo really. Yeah. And it and it has a lot of drama in it anyway. Yeah. And like it was just yeah. That's kind of gave the magic of that's like fed into all of the writing of the lyrics. I feel like everything came from that piano. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Fantastic. So that's worth having that um that kind of a session, that decoy and that fun games thing that didn't quite work out. Exactly. I mean I'm just you know, I'm just trying to keep this this interesting for us. Spice things up. Exactly. And um yeah, it's weird 'cause I don't think I'd try writing with s sort of six people every time. I don't think that's a an exercise or visit too often again, but it really it did work on that occasion, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, fantastic. Right. A couple of questions that we ask everybody with regard to this album. Was there a piece of kit essential to making this album, do you think? Um I think plugin wise there's like a couple of bits that I think Soundtoys Decapitao has been has always like my sort of go to . Um one that like has been saving me my bacon a little bit is I think that's helped me get over the line as the God particle plugin. I think it's not the sexiest pick, but I've just whacked this on on complete default setting on and it's helped me get over the line for so many songs because it's just like an instant make your song slightly better. Uh how does it do that? What what does it I don't know. That's why it's the God particle. Exact ly. It's um uh it's a secret. But um so that's been really good. Um as far as essential I mean like honestly there's like a few recurring themes and like might say Bobby's strings are on quite a lot of the songs with Rosies as well. Your Juno? My Juno sixty is my like absolute like I would say desert island, but I would be completely useless on there without some sort of Exactly but the Juno sixty is the the absolute number one essential piece of kit though, yes. It's on that is on everything. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Finds its way on everything. I love it. And for Holly, I mean, in terms of making this album, do you have a piece of equipment that is that piece of equipment Rob Milton? Yeah, I guess it is. This guy. Um I mean, we have an amazing selection of just like instruments as well. And I feel like sometimes you can't be just kind of going back to the piano and reminding yourself what's kind of what's important and why you are doing this, you know, why we're here, it's cause we all started off. Well, I started off on the piano. And I feel like if I'm ever feeling a bit weird or don't know where something's going, or like I don't know what I'm doing, I feel like always kind of ground ing myself at the piano whether that's your piano Rob which I love or I've got one at home you know just like it's just how I have always kind of written songs and made music is like at the piano you, know, so I feel that's kind of my safe space that's always there for me to return to. And yeah, still my favourite my favourite instrument and it's your piano's lit throughout this this whole album, probably on most songs as well. It's like an ancient piano, it's like super old. And whatever you do it to it, I've tried so hard to get it to like be less noisy, but there's just as as soon as you fix one squeak, something else happens and like it sounds like it's falling apart and but I've kind of come to terms with like that's how it is. Um and that's like most holly like Holly sort of piano sounds are just on that. squeaky piano. I love it. It's got character. Yeah I bring it with me every s every studio I move to and it's been is like it's huge and it's like taking bits of wall with it wherever it's gone. Um so yeah, that's that's pretty essential too. Yeah. Yeah. That's all Joanna. The other question we ask everybody is whether they have any advice in a thing that you've learned along the way that you would want to share with other people? One thing I'd say is like especially with I know that we've kind of been learning quite a lot is that just sort of like I spent a lot of time trying to get people to think less and I've spoken a lot about being sort of instinctual on on a lot of the sort of like lyrical parts and everything. I know it's super vague, but I just think it's important to especially writing lyrics like trust writing quickly and refine later because a lot of the time you say what you're supposed to say without thinking about it too hard, so I think that can be your biggest enemy. So we've practiced that a lot on this record. Like if it's good, don't overthink it. Yeah. Um so yeah, stop thinking. I love that. I love that. I need to hear that sometimes. Um I guess my piece of advice would be like it's supposed to be fun. I feel like it's been easier since I've started looking at it that way. It feels really obvious, but it's not it's been a revelation, honestly, this past year and a half. It's not life or death. It's just it's just music and it's it's supposed to be fun. Um and I think it's like completely changed the way that I've made music, to be honest, looking at it from that angle rather than as a job, it's not that deep. No one's gonna no one's gonna die if I don't write another song ever. Um and just have fun. Yeah, have fun. I like that. It's good. It's not that deep. And it's good to get that realisation at this stage. Exactly . Yeah, exactly. I hope so. I hope so. I mean anything else is a bonus. I feel so lucky to get to like work with people that I admire and trust creatively and to get to release the songs and go play them and yeah have the best job in the world. So I hope