Therapy and Men Loving CBT

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening I took my microphone and found some human vote Then I We recorded all the noises while we spoke I'm a man I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan Hey how you doing Podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. Now you may be able to hear that I am not on my usual Norfolk farm track. Rosie is at home in Norfolk. I am in Hagaston Park in East London. It's a beautiful morning on the very first day of May, 2026. I've just been shot on. By a bird. So much shit. I was on my bike. And I went under some trees and I did feel something plop a little bit. And I thought it's just a branch. Wasn't a branch. It was a direct hit. Got me on the top of my fleece, on the sleeve of my jacket. There's a big old blob on my shorts that I just discovered. Anyway, very effective work from the East London birds. Yeah. They sound nice. But they will absolutely shit on you if you give them half a chance. Anyway, good to be here in beautiful London town. I was here yesterday filming a promo for my show SuccessPod, my Audible Show, which I now is going to make its debut in early June rather than this month. Later today, I'm getting a train to Liverpool for the first night of my tour with the Adam Buxton Band. We will, in case you haven't got the message by now, be playing a selection of songs, mainly funny, from my album Buckle Up, plus a few covers that are close to my heart. And we'll be at Liverpool's tongue auditorium tonight, if you are listening. to this podcast. The day that it drops. Come and join us. We're on stage at 9 p.m. Still some tickets left. We also have support from Sonorous Voiced Songstress. Hope that's not an offensive description of Anna B. Savage, very talented musician, who I'm delighted is supporting us. for our shows in Leeds, Exeter, Cardiff, and Bath. There's a link in the description of today's episode for dates and tickets. I hope that you can make it along, come and say hi, I'll be hanging out afterwards, signing bits and pieces, I think. And there's news of a couple of other live shows that I'm doing at the end of today's podcast, but right now, let me tell you a bit about episode number two hundred and seventy, which features a delicioing of waffle with musician, actor, and writer Rebecca Lucy Taylor, aka Self-Esteem Esteem fax. Rebecca was born in 1986 in the English market town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire, where her mother worked as a secretary, and her father worked by day in the health and safety department of a steel works, and by night, Sometimes played in a local band. In 2006, aged twenty, Rebecca formed the band Slow Club, with Charles Watson. And over the next ten years, they released a series of critically acclaimed albums featuring heartfelt, Lo-fi indie retro soul pop power folk. Rebecca began using the Altar Ego Self-Esteem around 2015 for a variety of artistic projects, including an exhibition of paintings and prints, and short films. She's an artist in all sorts of different ways. In 2017, she released her first music under the self-esteem Monica, the Your Wife, Your Wife EP, which set out the store for Rebecca's unique blend of classy art pop and self-lacerating lyrics that dealt unflinchingly. with modern relationships, self-love, self-loathing, and yep, self-esteem. The first full self-esteem album, Compliments Please, was released in 2019, and that was followed a couple of years later by Prioritise Pleasure. which featured the single I Do This All the Time. A mostly spoken word track, often compared to Baz Lerman's Everybody's Free to Wear Sunscreen, that was named by The Guardian as the best song of 2021. There's a link to a few self-esteem tracks. Including that one in the description of today's episode. In 2022, Prioritize Pleasure was nominated for the Mercury Prize, an annual award for the best album released by a UK or Irish artist, but it was last year, 2025, after her third studio album, A Complicated Woman, was released. that she would win the Ivan Novello's Visionary Award. And Ivan Avello. It's the Oscar of the Music Writing World. Back in 2023, Rebecca debuted on the West End stage in the smash hit production of Cabaret, where she performed the lead role of Sally Bowles, opposite Scissor Sister's Jake Shears. as the Kit Kat Club's MC. Earlier this year, 2026, she returned to the West End, starring in and writing additional music for an adaptation of David Hare's 1975 play, Teeth <unk> Smiles. At the Duke of York Theatre. is still running. I think it ends in early June. Rebecca plays Maggie Frisbee, once the roaring voice of 60s counterculture, but is now broken, disillusioned, tearing through the night, fueled by booze, fury, and a voice that refuses to die. My conversation with Rebecca was recorded face to face in London back in late June of last year, 2025, and there was a definite theme of ambition that ran throughout. Why ambition sometimes feels like a dirty word. We talked about the challenges of being a parent of someone in a band, especially if you're a musician too. Talked about her experience of doing cabaret, as well as her experiences writing prioritized pleasure in her parents' home during the lockdown, and how that compared to writing a complicated woman four years later. When we spoke, Rebecca had also just finis writing a book, also called A Complicated Woman, that was published in October 2025, and that brought together notes and lyrics, journal entries and observations on life as a woman in the 21st century. We also talked about why men love CBT. Cognitive behavioral therapy. That's the highly structured, often short term and goal oriented form of psychotherapy that focuses on changing unhelpful thinking patterns, emotions, and behaviors. Also, because our conversation was recorded a few days before 2025's Glastonbury Festival. We talked briefly about how musicians in the public eye at that time were often expected to supply an opinion about whether the Irish band Kneecap should be allowed to play Glastonbury, following allegations that one of the band had shouted support for Hamas. and Hezbollah at a previous show. But we began by reminiscing about the episode of the Great British Bake Off for Stand Up to Cancer, that we competed in together. And I also talked about my only other T V appearance in a while. on the UK quiz show House of Games, where winners of each day, if you're not familiar with the show, get a House of Games themed prize. Tim Key, I know, treasures his wheelie bag with the House of Games logo on it. Anyway, it was because of all the spoilers in that part of the conversation that I wasn't able to put this episode out sooner. Uh which is a bit thick of me, and I apologize. I didn't get any threatening messages from Richard Osman, the show's creator and host. Michael Sheen has since taken over as host, but I knew that if I blabed on my podcast about the outcome of the show before it had aired, it would uh not be cool, yeah. Hello, Bird. Beautiful big magpie has just come and sat. on the fence by the little pond next to which I'm standing. Okay, I'll be back at the end to tell you about those live shows, but right now with Rebecca Lucy Taylor, aka Self-Esteem. Here we go. Have a brable jazz, we'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that, come on that's to the light, and have a rabble chat, foot on your conversation, you're talking as Yeah. an article in the mail online after Bacoff went out. And the headline was something like viewers appalled by the most shocking and disgusting creation ever on Bake Off, and they had a picture of the uh sort of limp banana that was supposed to be my alien cov covered in bits of cherry juice. It did look it did look very um sick. That was like being on the Mercury Prize there again. for me. Because everyone was like I was a bit like I'm on pr you know, I'm the underdog because I was a replacement. So I hadn't practiced and I can't remember if you I I don't know if you remember me going on about that, but I made sure everyone knew. And then I did like so well in that second challenge. You were So then all the producers and stuff were going like Might be you, you know, might be you. I went back to my trailer and like text my mate's group goats. Yeah. I was like, I might be in with Chancellor lads And then hopes were dashed, you know, just like Well they were dashed by Mira Syal, who was in another league, really. Oh yeah, it was totally fair enough. But if I ever go on again Make something you can make delicious, flavour wise. 'Cause that's how she ate Pip Tus. It was too much on the day. It was I sort of knew in the abstract that it would be like that. Yeah. That practicing at home is never gonna be the same as being in a TV studio with cameras and stuff. Why do you think you went wrong? Well, I went wrong with the dough. There was something weird happen with the dough. And then Paul Hollywood came and stuck his finger in it at one point. And just gave it a look like oh you're fucked. Oh. And then wandered off. It made fantastic television. I never actually watched it. Did you watch the show? Yeah. Okay. It's really funny. I mean it should get a buffer. Should get a nod. Just for the highs and lows. You were so kind to me. Because I was genuinely freaking out. Did you did I look like I was in trouble? 'Cause I love you and I was like oh no, he's really gone quiet. But you did really well. I was gutted. Well yeah because I was so sure I was gonna nail it. Did you do you have therapy? Um I haven't had any since then, but I'm due for some. Yeah. And I will it'll be mainly bake off but I did feel like I cared about it so much. I was like, why? But it was fun to sort of there's life and the old dog, yeah. Like I'm still care about some things. I still want to win. I still want to try hard. I felt like twelve years old again. Do you know what I mean? Like so it's like horrible, but but nice. I feel like you're I we're both fairly ambitious people, don't you think? Like but we're part of our mania, if I can characterise it like that, is that we know that it's not necessarily an attractive or not an For me, it's not a quality I like seeing in other people. Like someone who's super eager to win or or super competitive or anything. I don't think I'm Totally over the top, but it feels weird. And I went on House of Games the other day. Yeah. And I really tried hard on that. But how did it go, can you say? Well I smashed it. Good boy, nice. And the thing is that It was such a weird feeling because I've never ever done that before. I've never won at anything that I can think of. If it's a competitive environment. Usually I try and avoid anything competitive. I've never been a sport guy or anything like that. But um I won the first day. It was very close. It was quite it wasn't like a total walkover. Everyone else was good on it. And then the second day I won. Because I suddenly felt like relaxed. Yeah. 'Cause I won the first one and that's all I wanted to do. I just wanted to win one and bring home something for our friend Janice, who loves the show, and she was like, Oh my God, if you win, can you bring me back? Sure, I'll do my best. So I won something for Janice. And then I just chilled right out. And then everything was fine. It's like, oh this is what you have to do. You have to just relax. And everything works. Wow. Did you win every day then? Every day. Nay And then I started feeling I started feeling weird because then you know Richard Osman starts saying Uh Well, Adam's the one to beat, uh can today be the day the tide turns. He's good at answer smash, but uh Will he be caught up? And I started to realise that I was it was such a weird position to be in. And I felt like a bit of a dick. Did you share any prizes? Yeah, I shared Shared three prizes. Yeah, exactly. It's fine. If you do that, it's fine. Yeah. I shared a prize with uh legend from Gladiators. Oh okay. What did Legend want? Uh a a cake. Of course. It's what the gladiators dream of. Who else was on when you were on? I was on with Hamed Anima Sean, who's in a show called Black Ops. Okay. Comedy show. Funny guy. Uh Lisa Snowden. Wow, the presenter. Yeah. Yeah. And um a comedian, an actor called Lorna Watson, who I have worked with before. She was good. She gave me some trouble Because she was more my age. Right. That's the thing is the older people just do better. They do. It's really annoying. It's really annoying. Yeah. It's it's flawed. And then like what do you do as an older person, you feel kind of like you should especially if you've got kids, you know that you sho you don't wanna be competitive there, just surging ahead. You wanna back off and give everyone else a chance. But then I was like, I'm not Nah. I've got to go for it. That's really funny. Especially after Bake Off. Well, exactly. Don't worry about it. You know, ambition isn't dirty. No, it's not dirty. I've been reading Eric Idle's memoirs because I'm hoping to speak to him on the podcast. Wow, really? And he moved out to Los Angeles at a certain point because he got so fed up with the sort of critical tone of the UK and everything being so down and I don't know what. And so he likes it out in LA with all everyone being positive. And then he goes and does spam a lot in the sort of later stage of his career, when he's in his sixties. And it's a huge hit. Everyone's winning Tony awards left, right, and centre. And uh he has the same thing. He feels like a little bit of an impostor or a bit like he doesn't deserve it, or he's getting successful off the back of the other Python's work, or there's so many ways that you can spin a success. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To turn it into something bad. be really good and that's it. Are you like that though? Are you Yeah. I mean For years it felt like it when I was in a band and stuff like it wasn't cool to be ambitious. Which like infrated my quite badly. Like I was really like stupid me for wanting that. And then Where did you get that vibe from, though? Indy music in that time. You had to look like you didn't care and but then people were making huge careers while still looking like they didn't care. Which which I could never do. Like I I love working hard and trying hard and um I didn't fit in, you know. But then it I I recently found out everyone did want to sort of get bigger. But they you know, it was hard it was hard. I like self esteem is definitely like I literally saw like drag race and read like Madonna's book and then I was like, I'm being rewarded for being brilliant. Isn't is isn't bad. And I felt like I can't I can't I like I've shut myself up so much for years. I was like I've got to go and do it. Was that you always, though? Was that person always waiting to get out? And you got accidentally sucked into a cool indie band? Yeah. Right. Massively. I tried to get into drama school, didn't get in. So I was interested in that and I was interested in I love music. I love like Indie music. I'm big bandhead. I'd go to gigs and I was always I had a band at school and stuff. So it really could have just gone down e either way. What did you play in the band? I sang, play guitar, play the drums sometimes. And did you write your own songs or were you doing covers? Oh it was a dreadful mix of originals and um Uh Damian Rice covers. Okay. Uh Smith's covers. Nice. We did There's a Light that'll never go out and I Oversang that. We did um Take me out. How do how would you do it? I can't but imagine the eighteen year old girl with an asymmetrical fringe and a David Bowie t shirt on flares. Sounds cool. Really going for it. One of the show suppers we had was uh What's the Beatles song Dun Dun D Come Together. Oh yeah. Long, drawn out come together with me be like You're like really bluesy. Very cool. We used to play at this venue called The Boardwalk in Sheffield. And he made a door split. So m that was my high school band, we would do these sets with n two originals. Which I was writing about the guy who played guitar. Well so dramatic. But we used to get so many people down from school that we'd make I I remember making seventy quid ones. I was like, brilliant. I've never made any more money in music since It was a lot better a lot better odds actually before I got into it professionally. So it was still ambitious then, but then when I was in the band Slow Club and we and we tore and We you know, we were so young when we started. How old were you? Like sixteen. Really? Yeah, yeah. So sixteen, seventeen, we were like just playing in Sheffield and then we got offered a tour of the bar flies. Can you remember bar flights? Yeah. I remember thinking like here we go. This is it. So I didn't go I didn't go to Unit because we had this tour. And then then that's that's the rest is history, which isn't go to uni. How did that go down with your folks? Quite sweetly, right. There's my dad was in a band when he met my mum. Mum and dad are really like quiet um people. They both love music. My dad's like really into bands, really into like Pra. Yeah. Um Jennifer Beale in Flash Dance. He was a steel worker by day and a musician by night. He w He didn't work he wasn't a steel worker. But you know, it's like a the times I think printed that. Safety department. My dad's got like a way cooler narrative. Maybe he worked in health and safety, but I bet he was sweaty and bare chested all day. And probably had a hammer on it. Tool belt. It's a better story, but no, he was just in the office. But um but yeah, he'd come home, he's like an amazing progress Keyboard player. Like John Lord, like his his like idol. Oh yeah. But yeah, um you know, we're close family, but we're never there was never overblown like emotional outpourings ever, and I was like I am, so it was quite difficult. But my dad pulled the car over, it was picking me up from somewhere. And it was on the table. I do a go to you now, I do a do music. And he said you should do music, just see how it goes. Which I thought was like really amazing. Yeah because like a lot of parents wouldn't have supported that at all. But he must have known you were good. I mean he'd seen you perform at that point. Yeah. It's funny now, 'cause obviously so much has happened now and they they really enjoy it now, but there must have been some hairy years. 'Cause it was a decade of not getting anywhere. Really. Yeah. And being on tour and like really unregulated, unsafe world for like a young woman. Did they ever come with you? My dad used to drive us a bit at the start. He drove us to Glasgow once and back in the same night. Because we couldn't stay, you know. What a legend. From Sheffield. Yeah. How long did that take? I mean that's four, four, five hours. Something like that, isn't it? My dad is just so sweet. And and thank God it's paid off twenty years late. Did he ever give you critical feedback, like um advice about the music you were making and the song you were writing? He did a bit of verse and then I It became aware that that's not okay. He still does this song Emmanuel in Deep Blue Okay. He was like Well I thought there were gonna be some drums coming. I was like, Great. Thanks, Dad. And then when it got to number five, he went, um, Not bad. And I was like, ah, this is where my desperate need to please comes from then. I see. But he's never been like he's not hard I know he loves it, but he's just not over the top. And I'm so over the top. But yeah. Where do you get that from then? Honestly, I've no idea. My mum is like so calm. Mm quiet. I had a gr my granddad was like the he was like a bit of a personality in the village. Uh huh. Maybe he owned the shoe shop. He was like the dame in Pam to every year and stuff like that. So I think my best guess is that. He he had some show business in him for sure. And that's where I got it. And your mum was a secretary? Yeah. So where was she working? She worked at a solicitors, then she worked at the police, doing like nine nine nine games. Make up for sting. Yes. Yeah, I'm a Nepo. My mum didn't make Sting's makeup. So I'll go into this. No, and then she But my mum was home with us a lot when we were kids. And then she went back to work when we were a bit older. Uh which again, I didn't realise was like amazing, you know. And kind of them. Yeah. Such a sacrifice and whatnot. 'Cause me try to think about having a baby I'm like I'm not stopping it out. I've got shit to do. Yeah, it's w it is weird. Like when I think about how much my parents sacrificed and how difficult their relationship was because of all the decisions they made about how they wanted us educated, especially and all the other things. You know, I moan about them sending me off to boarding school and things like that. But They really, really thought they were doing what was gonna be best for me. And, you know, I did certainly get a lot of amazing things from those decisions they made. But yeah, they sacrificed a lot in a way that I don't feel I mean, I have a c I have a s sort of cushier life in a way. Yeah. So things are easier for me than they were for them. Yeah. So I don't have to sacrifice as much as they did. Do you have to board? You have to stay. Uh to live there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, boys. No, it was co ed actually. Even though obviously you know you're in single sex dorms. Mm. We would sneak across to the girls wing in the middle of the night. Nightboat to Cairo by Madness was in the charts. Do you know that one? I don't know. It would play in my head as we were creeping across in the moonlight. Like literally so anxious about getting busted because I don't know what I thought we would get expelled or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was brilliant. Um downhill from there. Or downhill from there. But the yeah, the downside was that um I was emotionally crippled. Gotcha. Well, that's socially more accepted. Yeah, I guess so. If you just keep it all quiet and inside. It's good training for becoming a Tory MP. Apparently that was one of the options available to me. Tory MP or podcaster. Well, well, this time, yeah, for a swivel. Still uh on the subject of your parents though. I mean, I'm interested especially because my children are musical couple of them. Are they? Yeah. And I do give advice to my one of my sons and I know he doesn't necessarily appreciate it. I'm trying to hold myself back. But it has happened on a couple of occasions. It's tough. What's the best way to play it then as a parent? Just just be positive. I think the way I make music is so specific to me. Like if it was a goal that like If I try to make the best proc music possible, I might be all ears. Has he recorded stuff? Oh yeah. So does he ever say, uh, look, I've got this song I think would be perfect. Uh My dream is to have him play on a record. Oh really? Which I think I'm gonna do on the next one. He once played w when I was in Slow Club, we did a little cover Z P and I covered Desperado. And my dad came up and played it on the piano. The Eagles. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Which is like weird to see my dad nervous. Pi, like killer. Horrible. Can't bear it. 'Cause then you just seen him as a little boy. You know. Did he behave himself? Yeah, he smashed it, but it's just a weird role reversal, isn't it? So sorry, I've not really answered your question, but um It's such a personal thing and your parents are so in charge for so long that I think you just don't want their involvement in your work. Yeah, it's I never did. It's easier to keep those worlds separate. I mean it was even weird for me when we had our dad was my dad. Not our dad, Joe Cordish has a separate dad. Um But my dad was in our T V show and we'd take him to festivals and stuff and on the one hand we were encouraging him to be silly and play along and on the other hand I was protective of him. Yeah. I didn't want him to embarrass himself. But no, I do I it's there's something that's always been cool about my dad. It just was the thing that united everyone. He had videos of tours, he would read books. He had so many CDs and records and he would read from cover to cover the thing. So it's just like I've always cared about that. Cause I suppose as a kid you just want to do what they might th think is interesting. Yeah. Sometimes there's cool stuff been happening lately where like Gone out of a novello the other day. And I brought my mum and dad, 'cause I knew I was winning it, and 'cause they they had to come down twice for the Merc to see me lose the Mercury Prize. Cause the Queen died on the first one. Right. Do you ever remember this? Yes. The first Mercury Prize Queen died, so we all had to grow them. And then the second time I didn't win. So I really wanted to bring them something where they knew I was gonna win, so they came down, and then we were sat on like my publisher Like used to play football with Ian Gillen from Deep Purple, so my dad's having a chat about that. And then you two were picking up like a special award and played. And then Bru Sprinksteen was there and I was like my daddy was never really excited about anything. He could just tell he was like, This is cool And I was just like that's Weirdly wonderful to have achieved, you know. Wow. I always wanted my dad to think I was cool. And then now I'm like, he does. That is amazing. It's a long way around going, you know. Yeah. I took it a bit far here. Now I'm cursed with being a musician. You couldn't write it, could you? It's like, Oh yeah, Dad, come along to the Ivan Novellos. Yeah. I'm getting an award. Holy shit. I know. Congratulations. Thank you. It was a funny week 'cause I was like I'd different types of press every day for four days in a row. Like three different things a day. And then it was that. And then the next day I was on stage with the scissors sisters singing and 'cause I'd just n my brain had just flatlined. So I'm trying to learn the words for take your mama. Out. Like dresses a sexy baby sailor. Yeah, right. Trying to learn words and they were not going in. I was like, never again am I doing this much in one week. But the novellas were the best bit of a very mad week. Where as well, everyone asked me about kneecap every time I was interviewing. Oh my god. I'm too tired. I can't tell you what I think about anything. Why were they asking you? Just because every musician is supposed to have a opinion. Yeah. Kept getting like ambushed. Yeah. You'd be like on air and then they go and and you're like Wait a minute. Horrible. It is. I think that's so crap. I really do actually. It's like when's Mr Tumble gonna say something about kneecap? You know, I'm not suggesting that you're exactly like Mr Tellman. I mean you are a musician. There is a kind of a political dimension to some of the stuff you write. So it's not from total left field to ask you about it, but at the same time it's such a crap gotcha about this hugely complicated Conflict, situation. And even saying that that wind people up. They're like, It's not complicated. All you have to do is say this. Yeah. And then it'll all be sorted. It's people saying it's complicated that's part of the problem. It's like, Oh my God Yeah. But I got the award. Has it sorted out the situation in the Middle East? No. Not yet. And that's my fault. This time last year, June twenty twenty four. We did an event at the Crossed Wires Festival. That was fun. But by that time I'd already seen you performing in cabaret. Oh yeah. I remember you coming. Yes, and that was one of the last days, I think, in your run. Panultimate show. You started the run in September twenty twenty three and went through to March twenty four? Yeah. And it was so good. I've only been to a handful of musicals. Normally I do try and avoid them. Fair as well as the theatre in general. Really. I've had some good times at the theatre, but anyway, it was extraordinary. Are you gonna do more? Yes, I'd like to. It's just hard because Cabaret is the best one. That production of cabaret is completely flawless. That's why I could just go into it so 'Cause what I'm 'cause I'd like to do more acting and I've I really enjoy it. It's a better place for me to be emotional than me. Right. And I find it and I think it's just a challenge. How do you mean? 'Cause I'm just so emotional and I've like made a living out of how I feel for my whole life, really. And then when anyone's got a problem with that, it's killer, you know? And it's just too close. It's just exhausting. And then to be Sally. And I understood how she felt and I could like access it because it was also me, but it just had this separation that I just Loved. So I want to do another play, yes, but it's hard because it's just the best one. Remind people what cabaret is about if they haven't seen it. It's just like at the very start of World War Two Nazi Germany is like bubbling under and then it's the last hurrah in Berlin when You know, there's money and just sex and Decadance. queer and like just this musical about the party. being over, you know. And it's so haunting and close to the baron now. And Sally is like she's like a party girl who wants to have no boundaries and no rules and just keep going and not live by any societal norms, but then also I think she's like that to save face to kind of like if she didn't get a husband and have a baby and be a nice lady, she never wanted it anyway, which is the most me thing ever. So and I loved it. And I loved being a you know, I was a Sally Bowles who she's nineteen in the book, but I was thirty. six during it, thirty seven. And she gets rid of a pregnancy, basically. She chooses the independent option because she can't trust the man or whatever. And I just thought there was something so I was so proud to sort of sh tell a story of that 'cause it's really close to my heart, you know. And there's loads of dancing and sexy stuff and I got off with the Nazi in it. Did you? Yeah, still going out with him. Nice. But I thought I wonder how many Sally Bowls have got off with the Nazi. In the history of It's musical. I'm very happy for your uh Nazi romance. That's the bit we're gonna clip out. But I so relate to the idea that that would alleviate your anxiety because it's a kind of prescribed existence where so many of the complicated things that you worry about every day are set to one side and everything's organised, there's a timetable. And everything about it was not by my hand. And the only bit I had to control was my performance. And everything about self esteem has been it's just me. Yeah. Which is I can't do it any other way. But like I don't think I realise how exhausting and pressurised that's been until I wasn't doing it for a bit. For the first time ever. Prioritize Pleasure came out w twenty twenty one. Uh-huh. And then was there another album between that and Cabaret? No. No. So this is the new one is the first one that you've done since Prioritize Pleasure. And I remember talking to you Before Sheffield. Was I making it then. And yes, you said you were having a terrible time. Oh yes. Why? Well, with a bit of perspective now, I think there was no way to not have a terrible time making the first album after you've had a bit of success. Did you have it in your career where like they love you on the way up, then you're here. Sure. You're here then. Yeah. How are you gonna follow it up? Yeah. And also like your fair game. And the sort of brigade of people that are like, Oh, actually I don't think he's that good actually are ready to come no matter what. So like rationally I knew that was coming no matter what I made, even if I made, you know, Kid A. Like It was coming. People didn't like Kid A at the time. No. They were wrong you see? So Yeah, so I was having a bad time. But then I also now with a bit of perspective, like prioritise punishment. So my my life changed on that. And I went from like loads of time and focus on what I was doing and not really getting anywhere to suddenly like I mean it was wild. For three years I didn't have a day off, like it was constant. And then I did cabaret. And then I went straight into complicated woman and I think I was just burnt out in like the purest sense. I hate like buzzy words and that, but it was. Really? Well, I can't think. And I'm sure you were probably overthinking like what you were gonna do and how you were gonna do it. W were the sort of critics' voices in your head. Yeah. And like to be honest, it got reviewed really nicely and I've had a perfectly all right time of it. There was like one real stinking review and I And I've not I'm not even read it, but even just knowing it's there is like rationally again doesn't matter. I know I a hundred percent know it's coming. It just like, yeah, it's been really weird, but then when you th I'm I'm trying to process it and think like basically no one cared what I was doing my whole life. Then everyone was saying it was really good. I remember like watching smoke go up my asshole that been like I know this can't last. It was good at first, on Privatis Play, it was really fun and I was getting asked to do things I'd always wanted to do, and that was all really fun, but then Knowing that that's not sustainable. sort of ruined it. And then it not being sustainable has been pretty painful. That's why I'm a bit like assessing what do I want and what do I think. 'Cause it's something with music where you do well and then your only option is you've got to go bigger. If you want to go bigger, just like scientifically you have to dilute what you're doing. Really. If I want to be a global artist in today's economy. Right. You've gotta do a a song that's gonna be pretty simple, you know. Is that your priority though? Because I do remember watching The slow club dot which is called All Our Brilliant Friends. And you're talking about some of the things that we were talking about earlier about about sort of feeling ambitious but feeling a little bit like everyone around you thought it was too jazz handsy to be worried about wanting to get everything right. And you said though you can't help but want more. I want to be a big dog. I mean, I don't know if you literally were talking about wanting to be like a big sweet dog. I'd be a lovely dog if a spell happened big gol slobbery golden retriever. Sorry, carry. But no, you were talking about you're talking about wanting to sort of do as well as you can within your field, right? Yeah. I watched like we watched every artist go just zoom past us. Like we Mumford and Son supported us. And I thought, those kids have got it. We watched them just go flying past. And you know, I was like living in the wor horrible flat chairs in London, you know, with with no money. Just like, please, can't I just have a poster on the tube and like do this properly? Like And then it you know, and then it all happened and it was amazing. I was in the pandemic living in my mum and dad's house. I was like looking into retraining as a Zumba teacher. But when I made prioritise pleasure, there was a real like weird clarity where I was like Not Rick Rubin style, like I am now a conduit from the universe and I'm I'm gonna be that I'm the art came down through me and it you know, it really was this like peaceful place to me and and was, you know, such changed my life, you know. What was the first moment that that happened and what music were you making when you felt like that? Uh the song called I Do This All the Time, that is what changed everything, really. Steven Mike played it twice in one show and I was like, uh Hang on a minute, this one's happening here. I was like, finally, like then they did. The phone just never stopped ringing after that. Like it's amazing. Where did that song come from? I just I'd always want to do a you know sunscreen Baslerman. That's like my favourite things ever. And sometimes I've like got an idea for a song and I like give myself a brief. Sometimes they just happen, but I'd always had this brief in my head of like what would a sort of m woman's m sunscreen be today. Yeah, I write these phone notes, basically. I mean everyone does. It's not I'm not like a master of this craft, but it was a big part of when I started self esteem I would just post sort of two or three line poems m from my iPhone, collated them, did it in one take and should I feel like And I just knew. And the rest of album I just knew what to do at all times. And the complicated woman was like I knew ish what to do, but I was c second guessing every single bit of it. I was letting other people's opinions in, which is something I've never done. And self esteem. I'm proud of it. Like I think it's like really dense and mad and it's done well and people like I'm talking like it's been a mad failure, but it wasn't as pleasant. And now I see like going into making the next one is like how do you force an environment where my brain feels like it did when there wasn't so much pressure. I mean the way that a lot of people do it is they switch tack completely. And they identify the things that everyone latched onto and they self-consciously turn their backs on them. Yeah. So for you, that would be probably that incredibly self-lacerating, very honest lyrical style that you have. Did you identify the bits that make you you, or the bits that people latched onto on prioritized pleasure? And did you think Where do these go now? How do I need to twist them around or do I need to do anything with them? Or was that part of your self consciousness? No, I sat I knew I've got this dream of making like a very stripped down piano record. Oh yeah. Right. And I was so tempted to do that instead. And that felt like cheating. To one eighty at that point. I felt self esteem had always been a trilogy in my head. And I always wanted to make whatever prioritised pleasure had, but it's like upper level. So we had ten singers on Prioritised Pleasure. I got like thirty on this. You know, and I wanted to make a bigger, bolder, wider screen version of Prioritized Peters, which is what I think I did. But I knew that that that was a challenge. And it and to one eighty would have been easier. And arguably might have gone better, but But the risk obviously other than any kind of critical barbs that might come at you because they go, Oh look, this is what she does and she's doing more. The risk for you personally is that you're putting so much of yourself out there and what you were saying before is that you every bit of commentary or criticism you feel it personally. Yeah. I've always you know my therapist and people around me there's a lot of like self esteem is this thing and Rebecca Lisa Taylor is the other and I'm like, it isn't that. It's the same. And I've never I never understand not completely putting yourself into what you make. This is the first time I've felt any kind of negativity towards doing that. It's the first time it's like bit me on the ass. And I've been surrounded by people going like this is gonna buy her on the arse eventually. And I've been like, no, why wouldn't I say how I feel in my music? Well it's boring not to. And now I see the price actually and they're like and the risk. I won't stop doing it 'cause I can't. I've written a book. Have you? Same as I've I've started running, but I wouldn't say it's running. Shuffling. And my book is so hardcore, that book. Like I've got I'm gonna get so many emails from people being like Mad with me. Why? Because you've mentioned people personally. No, I th well I never mention anyone directly, but like I just think like people have a p people don't like women saying anything, and it's quite like exposing and But again, I can't not do it. So I think my point is, yes, I've learnt the price you pay for it, but can't not do it. And then the people I love, like the artists I love, like Marina Ramovich, Madonna, like they don't give it a second thought. I'm sure they did it at at the time, but But I don't think of Madonna as being someone who put herself I mean, she did in lots of ways put herself on the line. But lyrically she wasn't in the same place as you as being like so specific about your neuroses and your No, but you know what I mean? Like things that are really pretty deep down in the core of you and what you worry about and what makes you tick and things you don't like about yourself, things that most people try pretty hard to cover up. I feel like the soothed me of it though. Yeah. It is weird, isn't it? Like I'm only just thinking about it now. I'm a bit worried, like one day I'll be like, ooh Can we take all that out? But um I'm not suggesting you should feel like I I I've thought the same about you know, I talk about this stuff a lot myself and I have times when I think I overshare. And I worry. But um I do I I feel the same way as you is like I do believe there's a value in it. Yeah. And I think you can go too far with it, but it's an interesting place to be and Teens twenties was like desperately trying to clip myself down to conform and assimilate what everyone else was being like. And I don't even think I was that wild, but I was unlucky that I was just in environments of, you know, all the lads in the band had long term girlfriends and homes. And I lived in and out of flat shares and had twenty million different relationships and I couldn't be normal, right? I've not felt bad about not being normal now for years. So all of it is part of uh healing how horrible it was to try and conform. I think I'm sort of like am singing too. Me at twenty two. But also even those people who you think of as having conformed, they probably don't feel like they fit either. Everyone feels that to a degree. I suppose that's why so many people have responded to it, you know. 'Cause it is fairly universal. I don't know that many people who at core are happy with the way they are and But everyone has certainly made me think they are. Yeah. Yeah. I have just like Self flagellated? Yeah. Is that the word? Sure. And it creeps back in sometimes and then and then I am cleansed by going, no, I'm just gonna tell the truth of what it is. And then for we know every time someone else goes thanks for saying that, I feel like that. Yeah. I'm like, I feel less alone. It's quite selfish. I'm not doing it for other people, I'm doing it for me to f like that teenage fucking girl who went to see Buns and you know, every woman I ever met was like rail thin singing the harmonies. There to add a sort of romance to a thing. And I wished I I couldn't be her. And I desperately wanted to be. So every time I s sing about, you know personal things loudly. I feel like I'm avenging her. Yeah. There's a line on the opener. Which line am I gonna say? I do and I don't care which line. Uh the one about smoking? No. Not smoking line. If I'm so empowered. Why am I such a coward? The chorus. Well it's a sort of refrain, reprise. Paritize Pleasure did have a sort of empowered sense of self that immediately went out the window as soon as I was like more visible. Like I'm not famous, right? But you be I became visible and people could have an opinion on me for the first time in my life. Not normal. like not natural thing to happen to anybody ever. And also in a way, because it it I wasn't going like stratospherically you know, I wasn't like surrounded in it wasn't like loads of money suddenly, or like you know it was this weird middle ground. And I start to get scared all the time. Like And also like twenty one, twenty two, everyone wanted to say Well actually, you know, to everything you say. I think there's like a tiny bit I mean it's still rough out there, but the discourse like you know that like rabbit need to pull people up seems to not be as In in what kind of situations? Just like the Are you talking about online or Yeah, just like nothing really that bad happened, but it was just I was constantly scared you're gonna put your foot in it and you're gonna be able to do it. Right, okay. Or like, you know, tiny things like I'd talk about my period, then I got, you know, people and I'm obviously like very involved in trans rights, but then I you know, people would DM me saying that's not trans inclusive. Uhhuh. Things like that where I'm like Fuck. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's that sort of liberal lefties picking each at each other. And I was quite vocal about things I believed in and for the first time there was people hit there to pick holes in it and you're like I mean who is pure in that world or i in any sphere of political discourse, right or left? I mean everyone everyone's just waiting to get one over on everybody else's. Losing. I feel like that, I must say. Um obviously I get like insuly men telling me I'm fat and ugly, right? And that's fine. I'm like that I just okay, sure. Like I expect that, but when it was like you know, when it's your own tribe. I was like, ah fucking you just start to shrink. So that lyric's about that really. But I'm I actually I'm not just saying that for a good podcasting. Like the last couple of weeks I've there's a turnaround in my head and I'm crawling back now. I think it's just all been a shock. And I can see the light of it again now. Good. You've got a good booze song in your record. Thanks. Are you never gonna booze again? You're never gonna booze again. Uh I I free booze is always. Lovely. I can't quite disconnect from like but it's free. Um no, I I do big chunks of time not doing again. I'm really I I'm really proud of that song 'cause I'm like don't think there's many people that sing oh anyway. You know, you either get sober and that's you now or it's way fuck it, here's a weekend. Like no one's gonna do it Yeah, so what are you saying in your song? 'Ca I I really love that song. I thought that was a banger. And very interesting lyrically as well. Yeah, I hadn't heard Yeah. I'm just trying to say, like, what's the middle ground Because it's so binary. Yeah. And my therapist is always like, it's to and go home and then you can you know I mean, and and I'm like, Yeah, but it's just not that simple and no one's ever saying about like how rotty that is. And how socially sort of rummed on your neck it is and So I don't know, uh it's an ongoing process. Part of the problem with booze is knowing when you do have a problem and knowing when the point comes when you just have to say, actually, this isn't working and I've just got to stop altogether. But do you use over? No. No. I'm drunk now. Um That's the thing, like I I've really realised there is the drinking that I do to be able to be the type of person that people are expecting. And there's a like nice couple here and there with friends that's like perfectly reasonable and like God made these things that are nice. And I want to be able to have them. And the only time it gets p problematic for me is when it's to perform and be what everyone else wants. But that's just like social anxiety. Like I'm just a nervous wreck at barbecues, but I can sing on stage and that's never made much sense, you know. Why? You're a nervous wreck at barbecue. I know what you mean, but how like talk me through and just can't think what to say and then no, if no one says anything I'll fill it and Somehow I'm finding myself talking about something about myself that's way too in depth and I'm like fucking hell I just panic. I hate it. How do people do it? Some people just do. Yeah. My wife is good. Although she I mean the thing is that when I see her at work with like parents from school and things like that. I just think well I could never do that. But it's I can see that it's hard work. Yeah. She just really makes the effort. Yeah. That's the thing. My boyfriend like rings people. I'm like, What are you doing? Freak. Do you if someone calls you and it's an unscheduled call, are you gonna take it? I'm like well, someone's dead. And I wait for it to stop ringing and then a text saying is someone dead? That's as more that's what you'll get. I'm awful with it. I don't know. Like I'm not there's there's definitely work to do on like what's wrong with me in that Are you in therapy at the moment? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um I Yeah, she's oh she must be sick of me. I'm sure she's not. I'm sure she likes you. Um Yeah, I'm her favourite, aren't I? She looks forward to me, doesn't she? But the other day I was talking to a friend, um A woman friend and we were talking about therapy and she said are you gonna get any more? And I was like, Yeah, maybe. But I quite like CBT. I've never had CBT and she said, Oh Men always want CBT. Same. My boyfriend, CBT, blah blah blah. It's 'cause it's pr it's like practical, I guess, or Yeah, probably. It's not emotional. Yeah. He fucking loves all that. Not him. In my song it goes, I recommend listening and he goes, I recommend CBT. Does my head in. Is this the Nazi. Yeah. Yes, it is. It's like you're writing stuff down and then you give yourself a treat if you've yeah. I smell what you're stepping in with it, but y you've got to talk about like both. Yeah, I mean ideally, yeah. But that is funny. Men do love CBT. That's a lyric on my next record. Thank you to your friend. 'Cause I just I just want as I said to my friend, it makes me you know, I talk about I do my robot voice when I talk about my my wife And I do feel roboty sometimes. But only because, you know, you just w I don't know that it's a peculiarly male urge, though. You just want the the world to make sense. Yeah. You just want some answers. Do you kinda wish the the world just not a lot was going off. I think a lot of men just wish things weren't happening. Yeah. Well how do you mean like socially or globally or just not don't just simple. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want a cat amongst the pigeons, you know. Well that's a certain kind of man. I mean, evidently. I don't know if you've read the papers recently, but there's quite a lot of men who aren't like that and are happy to put the cat amongst the pigeons. And then go and bomb the cat and the pigeons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not that. Yeah, sure. I know you're talking more socially I've just known a lot of men that just would are just poodling about and it looked lovely. My boyfriend there, I call him auntie, 'cause he's just like likes folding dusting. Works out every day, eats the same thing. Head hits the pillow. Good night. Nothing going on. It's amazing. Meanwhile you've just written a song about your periods and the voices in your head. Some men are like that though, but you're right, it is a different thing. I suppose there's all sorts of reasons, societal reasons, why there's not too many male artists like that. Mm Like who who would be? Who are the s male equivalents of you in the music world? Who talk about their feelings and well, maybe although I suppose it makes a difference that he's gay, but John Grant Yeah yeah yeah. He's yeah. But what straight men do that kind of thing? There aren't really any I don't that many I can't really think I mean I think they're starting to though. Yeah because it's fashionable. Sure. And I'm available to write lyrics for men if I need them. Well my uh my debut album is coming out this September. Yeah. It might even be out by the time this appears. And that's a very, very emotional record. Really? No. Oh Is it It's silly. Is it silly? It's silly enough. No, but it's got real feelings in it. Yeah. Yeah. Well you are very good. But they're buried. That's the thing is that I don't think I would ever be able to do what you do. It would always have to be buried quite deep. What, buried in what, like metaphor or just sort of it's a lai in amongst jokes or sort of irony or you know shields of one kind or another. But I don't mean that just because it's an exercise in total cowardice. It's like because that's what I like to do. I like silly jokes and I like and I like parodies and I like things like that. So it's valid. Yeah, thank you. All music is valid, apart from some of it. Hey, welcome back. That was Self-Esteem, Rebecca, Lucy Taylor, and I'm very grateful to her for making the time to come and waffle with me. And I apologize, Rebecca, once again for making it difficult to put the episode out any earlier. I'm stupid. And I'm learning as I go along, as a human. But uh anyway, it was really nice talking to Rebecca and I've put a few self-esteem related links in the description of today's podcast. So how are you anyway, Podcat? I hope you're well. Feels like the beginning of summer right now. Park in East London where I'm standing. So I wanted to tell you about a couple of live events that I have coming up, one of which is a conversation with Miranda Sawyer at the Charleston Festival in East Sussex. And that is happening in May. Oh, that's quite soon, isn't it? I just realised. That's like really soon. It's in a couple of weeks. May the fourteenth. Um and that takes place at nine PM God, I'm all over the place at the moment. And Uh yeah, I'm talking to writer and presenter Miranda Sawyer about the nineteen nineties. We're both nineties people. T V, homemade TV, podcasting, that kind of thing. And it's gonna be quite similar to an event I did last year with Miranda at the Royal Festival Hall. which featured chat and music and video nuggets from the Adam and Joe show days, amongst other things. And we had a really good night that night. I thought it was a good show and people seemed to enjoy it. I also love talking to Miranda, so this seemed like a good opportunity when I was invited to the Charleston Festival. I mean it won't be exactly the same, but just in case you came to the other thing, don't be surprised if it's similar. Also, it is the thirtieth anniversary of the Anima Joe show this year, so It seems um like another good excuse to do some retro waffling. After this year I'm never gonna do retro waffling ever again. Okay? That's my pledge. To you and to myself. A few weeks after that, on the 28th of June this year, 2026, I will be hosting a screening of the People's Emergency Briefing, an eye-opening film bringing together nine leading UK scientists and experts presenting the latest evidence. on what's happening and nature, what it means for everyday life in the UK, now and in the future, and what can be done about it. The film is only an hour or so and it features contributions not just from the experts but from a range of UK residents from all walks of life. As well as personalities including Jennifer Saunders and Stuart Lee. I think I'm in there as well. And they they interviewed me, I'm not sure if I made it to the final cut. as just, you know, someone sitting there with Chris Packham who hosts the film and we watched the talks, which I actually saw being given live when the initial event happened in Westminster towards the end of last year. It was really a fascinating day and not totally depressing, a lot of the news is alarming, but you know, the whole effort is to try and do something constructive and to try and encourage the government to be more constructive as well. Anyway, after the screening of the film which is gonna take place at the Norwich Arts Center. Did I say that? This is happening on the twenty eighth of June. And after the screening myself and acclaimed nature writer Patrick Barkam, he also writes for The Guardian, I think, will discuss some of the information in the film with each other and also with the audience. I haven't done anything like this before on stage, but it's a subject I'm interested in and I care about, as I know many of you do, so I hope some of you can make it along. Links in the description to those events. Okay, that's it for this week. I've got to go and get this edited and uh and then head to the station to go to Liverpool, where maybe I will see some of you tonight. I hope so. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support. Thanks also to a couple of New names to the podcast who I think are gonna be helping me over the next few months. Claire Broughton and Diggery Wait. Never come across a Diggery before outside of the Harry Potter universe. Anyway, they are folks that work at Hat Trick Productions who are gonna be helping me with the podcast, possibly helping me Be a little bit more ambitious. Maybe doing some more extra bits and pieces. Maybe figuring out some ways to be more engaged with the podcast. Anyway, we'll keep you abreast. But thanks to them for their help with this episode. Thanks to everyone at ACAST who liaise with my sponsors and keep the show on the road. Thanks to Helen Green, she does the beautiful artwork for this podcast. But thanks, most of all, to you guys for coming back, for listening right to the end. I'm not gonna shout loud because I'm in a public park and I'm shy. But I'm certainly up for um a creepy hug if you are. Come over here, just watch out for the bird chip. Oh dear you got a bit a bit on you. Chest it. There you go. You got it. Sorry about that. It's organic cockney bird shit. It's the best kind. And until next time, we share the same sonic space. Please go carefully. And for what it's worth, I love you. Bye. Subscribe subscribe