Reflections on Grief and Care

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have pluucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke My name is Adam Bxter and I'm a man I want you to enjoy this. That's the plan Hey, How you doing podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. I'm reporting to you from a crunchy Norfolk farm track In the middle of June, twenty twenty six I'm here with my best dog friend. Rosie Buxton of Success Pod Fame. How you doing, Rosie? I'd love to know when I'm getting paid. What do you think those sausages were last night? Sausages. Sausages, yeah. Susages. Yeah, sausages.usag. Yes. Hey, speaking of Success Pod, my new six part comedy series on Audible Thank you so much to all of you who have checked it out, sprinkled it with stars, left a review. much appreciated. It makes a big difference in the numbers based ecosystem of a major audiobook platform. It's an important part of encouraging the powers that be to consider making more, which I would love to do at some point Before I tell you a bit about podcast number two hundred and seventy five, just a reminder about a live podcast show later this year on the fifth of August. It'll be here before you know it. I'm doing the show as part of the Roundhouse Cedy Festival appearing at Camden's iconic Roundhouse venue Where I will be waffling on stage with former YouTube sensation turned Baffter winning, writer and star of TV sitcom Juice and other TV projects. Marwan Rizwan. I'm looking forward to meeting Marwan and having a good old waffle and I should think there'll be some other stupid bits and pieces too. That'll be the only live podcast show that I do this year as far as I am currently aware Link in the description for tickets, hope you can come along. But right now, podcast two hundred and seventy five, this one features a rambling chat with returning friend of the podcast, English actor, comedian, writer and director Kathy Burke. Kathy Vs Kathy was born in nineteen sixty four in Islington, northeast London to Irish parents. Her mum, Bridget, died of cancer when Kathy was just eighteen months old. So she and her two brothers, Barry and John, were brought up by their father who struggled throughout their childhood and beyond with alcoholism Kathy writes vividly about those childhood years in her memoir A Mind of My Own, published in late twenty twenty five. It was an audio book highlight for me earlier this year when I listened shortly before recording with Kathy F Success Pod. and I was glad to get another opportunity to talk to Kathy about a mind of my own, which I really loved. The book also covers her career trajectory from securing a place at Anna Sare Theatre School in North London, being cast at the age of eighteen and director Ma Zetling's film Scrubbers about a British reform schoolool for girls writing her first play, mister Thomas at the age of twenty two which starred a young Ray Winston And of course, she writes about becoming known as a comedy actor on TV in the nineteen nineties via Harry Annfield's programs in which he featured as, among many others, Wayetta Slob A lovely wobbly Randy old lady And Kevin, the teenager's best friend, Perry Of course last week's guest was Harry Enfield and it was just a happy quirk of my random scheduling system that Kathy ended up being there Next guest after him A mind of my own also describes Kathy's cinema acting adventures, including the film that earned her a Best Aress awward at Cann in nineteen ninety seven, Nill by Mouth, directed by her friend Gary Oldman, in which she played Valerie, a woman who suffers extreme abuse at the hands of her husband played T years after Mr. Thomas by Ray Winston. My conversation with Kathy was recorded earlier this month, june twenty twenty six at her house in Islington, not far from where she grew up And we talked a bit about her relationship with her dad, as well as a few of the childhood moments that left Kathy feeling insecure about her looks. And how Jo Strummer of the Clash was one of the few people who encouraged her to value herself a bit more in that respect. Kathy was always a big music fan and we talked about how important the punk and two tone movements were for her in the late nineteen seventies and early eighties she part of Non racist faction of the skkinhead scene. And she told me how exciting it was for her to spend time with some of her musical heroes, including Joe Strummer and Elvis Costello and She McGowown of the Pogues, when she landed ap part in the nineteen eighty seven film Straight to Hell, directed by Alex Cox who the previous year had also cast Kathy in Siddon Nancy starring Gary Oldman. There's a behind the scenes featurette for Sid and Nancy on YouTube, in which you will see A young Cathy popping up about halfway through hanging out on a boat with Alex Cox and his partner. I'll put a link to that in the description of today's podcast, along with a few other clips of things that came up in our conversation. Kathy talking in nineteen eighty nine about acting and beauty. A clip from Channel four music show the tube of Scottish band Nia Fates Nia Fires who Kathy enthuses about seeing supporting the proclaimers in the nineteen eighties. And there's an episode of The Last Resort with Jonathan Ross from nineteen eighty eight on which Kathy appears as her character, Tina Bishop who preceded her character Perry which she also did on one of Jonathan Ross's shows a few months later And I've also included a clip Kathy that we didn't talk about, but just made me laugh of her at the British Comedy Awards in two thousand two, giving a typically funny and unfiltered speech as she picked up a best actress comedy award for her sitcom Gimme, gimme Gimme. Also in today's description, there is a link to the play Care at the young Vic That's about one family's experience of grief and the care system, which Kathy enthused me about in the context of getting older, which we spoke about towards the end of our conversation. I'll be back at the end to say goodbye, but right now with Kathy Burke. Here we go Have a bramble chat we'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. come on let do the bat and have a bramble chat first on your conversation Cight your talking at Yeah No. Are you still enjoying talking about the book or do you feel like, o, I'd rather talk about other stuff now? Well, I haven't got any other stuff to talk about. So well the book came out in paperback yesterday. Okay. because it came out in hard backack When was that in October, November and I'm over the moon at the reaction and very sort of surprised. I thought it would do well with people that were sort of fans of my work from the nineties and stuff, you know, but it's sort of gone beyond I expected in the sorts of people that have been reading it and gettingetting in touch about it and I can honestly say I have not been stopped in the street more since I was in Harry andflden Jons. Oh, really? Yeah. for people talking to me about the book I don't know. I think I was lucky really because My childhood is in the sixties and the seventies So that's really interesting to people. Do you know what I mean? And people of my age group, especially So it's triggered memories for people for them, you know and then becoming sort of well known in the nineties. but I did a lot of stuff before I became well known. There was sort of like over ten years worth of work Before I sort of became Oh people knew my name. So that's been quite nice. People going, o my God, I didn't realize you did that and you did this and You were directing plays before you became well known. Do you know what I mean? That sort of stuff. Yeah. Although one lady did stop me in the street and said She said, I wish you'd given us a bit more gossip or something. I said, What dod you mean? Well, basically she just wanted me to say you I'd shagged And she said, I was really disappointed But you didn't say you shed and I was like No no, that is my business, you know, but it did really make me laugh Were you careful about the people that you talked about? Did it worry you that people might be upset by some of the things you were saying? Did you check with people Oh, I checked with people that I loved. that I love. J just wanted to make sure I'd got certain things right And yeah, that they were happy. I've got two brothers so they read it before anybody else because I wanted to make sure they were happy Were there things that they remembered very differently from you? Yes, of course. And there were things that they'd completely forgotten more than anything because they were living their lives So yes, definitely. my brother Barry, because I talk about when I was little when we moved into the top floor flat and there was a sort of ledge outside the windows. It was like a piece of guttering, really, wide piece of guttering. So I used to go out there and sit on this plint. I mean, it's four stories high are these flats, you know And I used to sit on this plinth and have a cup of tea And Barry said he did that as well. So I thought I'd got the idea from a window cleaner But I think I'd probably seen my brother do it and just copied him. Aged how old When we moved into that flat when I was around ten. Okay. So I was probably ten, eleven, yeah, crazy. No wonder I'm scared of heights Be I wasn't then Yeah. And yet when I remembered doing that And I thought, o fuck, I better put that in the book That night when I was trying to go to sleep, just before I'd nodded off. I remembered myself out on that ledge. But this time I fail And I just sort of woke up with a start. I was like, o my go where you do it? Yeah, but you never actually did fall in No not Right. The cat fell. Oh God. Nobby the cat fell off a couple of times, but four stories Yeah Yeah and survived. Yeah, but he was really damaged. I mean we had to have him put down in the end. Yeah. Yeah le me. Yeah. You write brilliantly about your dad I mean, I'm a sucker for dad stuff anyway People's relationships with their dad. I mean, your mum died when you were only not even two. Yeah. ye, it was eighteen months. Yeah. So you don't have any memories of her, presumably? No, not at all. No. So your dad sort of got depressed after she died. Do you reckon? L and then started drinking No A then. Oh, he had always been a heavy drinker. Yeah. Right, okay. Yeah So therefore, when I got older and my dad got older and my dad stopped drinking, I mean he did it by himself. He didn't go to AA or anything like that. He stopped smoking when he was forty and he stopped drinking when he was fifty And What made him stop? He just bottomed out, Pivil? I think he was probably told by the doctor you're going to die. If you don't stop, you know? So he did stop. So the last ten years or so of his life, he was sober. worked and saved money and went on holidays and All that sort of stuff. But the problem was When you've grown up with someone And especially when they're a binge drinker So you sort of get a couple of months where they're sober. And then you get a couple of months when they're pissed again and it's very erratic way to live, you know. So therefore when he did properly sober up, I never really trusted it. I never trusted that the drink wasn't going to start again So therefore, I was very much Not as warm as I could have been towards him and Yeah, it's about trust He was physically abusive though as well Y, yeah. yeah. Like just whacking you and I mean, but's When I talked to mates of my age group, you know, we were all hit. Okay. you know, it was sort of the discipline thing Now being here to be disciplined You understood it But just being hit because he was pissed and angry That's not greatay you know what I mean? So there was quite a lot of that really and then a lot of Aual fights, you know, between when my brothers were getting bigger. You know, and then it would be they could hit back So then You know, it was like brawls going on in the house, you know So it was quite difficult. I didn't sleep much as a kid and I was on aedge. I was quite frightened a lot of the time. I was quite fidgety and scratchy and But you know, one of my school friends, Claire that I was at primary school with You know, she messaged me and said Path, I had no clue This was going on becausecause you were just always laughing And there we go. there's the old cliche, Do you know what I mean? of masking and covering up and being the class clown to sort of go Everything's fine, everythingthing's fine You know I don't know why. We do that Wh we have this sort of as children, a sort of loyalty to not tell anybody what's going on, you know But also I was surrounded by a lot of love, a lot of people that did , you know and looked at my auntie Joan, it was a foster moment. My auntie neellew was my godmother this woman called Pat that used to take me out So it wasn't all doom and gloom. Do you know what I mean And actually, when dad wasn't in the house when dad was off on a bit of a drinking binge and, you know we wouldn't see him for a few days. And then that was great becausecause then it was just me and my brothers do what we want when we wanted we watch what we wanted anyway on the tey It just felt like a more relaxed try Was he remorseful, your dad A he'd been violent or after a particularly bad scene Oh, so off God love him, but he seemed to He felt sorry for himself more But that's the alcoholic You know, they're full of self pity Well, it's a kind of tussle between self loathing and self pity Yeah Yeah, spiral. Yeah What were the things then that made life fun in those days? What were you into Well, is a kid just Playing, playing in the flats Being on roller skates Music, because my brothers are older than me, they're eight years and six years older than So Once they could start doing Saturday jobs or working in the summer holidays, And a stereo system was bought and album started to turn up was Brilliant. and I used to love that and I was sort of on my own quite a lot in the flat. so yeah, I just play records and sing and pretend I was in the Beatles and pretend I was David Bowie or, you know And then Punk comes along, Well punk, the timing of that was fucking brilliant Because I was thirteen, twelve, thirteen And that was amazing for me. I mean, the music I really loved, but it was the attitude and it was just It was so naughty You know, that people were saying fuck off on the television and fuck off in their music and Oh my god, it was just incredible. But you were too young to see gigs and stuff th? Well, you know, everything was a little bit more relaxed back then. So I did start going to gigs when I was like fourteen, fifteen. Okay. They'd let you in, you know mostostly down in Finsbury Park and stuff. Who did you see? didid you see anyone 's G great that you remember Well, I saw when the two tone thing hit, so I saw madness. at the Hyperenca and the specials I saw the clash a little bit later You know, when they did a series of geeks at the Hannner Smith Odeian, I think it was, but I was a bit older then. I was about sixteen, seventeen And then it was just sort of binds that become anything. But when I got into my twenties I think I was at like the first London gig of the proclaimers you know, because I'd sort of got to know the pokes So Then my mate James Fernley would say, Oh, there's this Scottish group. They're brilliant. We're going to go and see them. They're playing in this pub in Finsby Park. And it was the proclaimers. I mean it's weird the proclaimers because I always forget about Yeah, I wasn't expecting you tod have mentioned. Yeah. and I'm so glad I've sort of remembered them now Because they were just brilliant. Right, but for most people, I think they are just crystallized in a couple of songs and they're sort of a novelty act because they looked so striking and they had the glasses and everything and The style was quite unusual. Yeah. So it's a letter from America and I would walk one thousand miles. Yeah. and that's a bit later. I think that that's like later stuff of theirs really. But no, they were fantastic. and they had this support act called the Nar Fies, I think they were called, that were just crazy. It'sust this guy hitting himself on the head with a trade You know, and it was It was that sort Celtic punk You know what I mean So it add all the anger and all the rage, but there was a real stomp to it, a real sort of rhythm and jig to it. Yeah. So I loved all that. And at one point you write about a sliding doors moment when you bump into the clash and more or less get an invitation to sort of spend your life on the road with the clash. Is that right? Yeah. when it was from one of their roadies, I suppose, this young guy And I had my news Musical Express in my bag. It was nineteen eighty. So I was coming up for my sixteenth birthday. it was May, that great time when you're just about to leave school forever And I was walking, my school was in Houston, so we used to walk through Eouston Station and then King's Cross Station to then lead us up to Pentonville Road that would lead us up to the Angel and home And I just thought Oh my god, I thought I spotted called Semon from the clash in Kings's Cross Station and then realized it was him and then saw the other band members. And it was like, o my go. and I was with my friend Mary And I was like, it's the fucking, you know, it's the clash. And sheap wasn't into punk or anything And so I went up to them and asked Joe Strummer if hed signed my new Musical Express, which was an iconic cover because Ian Curtis from Joy Division had died So there was this cover which was RIP in's, you know. So he signed it and then The other lads came over and signed it and And I'd cut clash into my arm. Oh my go, like what with the Well, I say in the book it was a compass needle But I think actually it might have been like a little my brother John used to do cutouts, you know, lino cutouts because he was he's an artist, you know? So he had these little like surgical knives, you know, artist knives. craft knives. Craft knives. That was it I think I actually did it with one of those And it was going to be and it was quite big clash, you know what I mean? It was quite big letters And it was going be Indian Ink. I was waiting for it didn't happen. But anyway, Joe Strummer spotted that and told me off about it and said, no, no, no,, no, you shouldn't do that And I said, Oh no, I'm going to get it Indian Inked because I thought you meant it looked bad and he have to cut, you know? And I mean now they've called it self harming. I didn't know I was doing that. I was just sort of, you know, sticking things in me and you know and all that and then decided to write clash on my arm. Anyway And he said to me, u No, no, no He said, Don't destroy your beautiful skin, not in our nameames. I remember thinking Beautiful skin Nobody ever used that word beautiful to me at all until that moment So it was wonderful. But anyway, then he had this young rodie guy who sort of hung around when they were one of the WH Smiths because they'd missed their train. That was why they were sort of there And anyway, this young lad said to me, I hang about with them now and I do jobs for them. running around and stuff and they've got some geeks coming up. whyy don't you C and Maybe you could do that too, basically And it was just a I like a slideing door moment, yeah, because I I remember thinking Fuck, you know That would be amazing justust about to leave school That would be incredible I'd also been waiting a couple of years to get into this place called the Anna Sare There which was workshops Drama classes that you did after school, after college or whatever And that Monday I'd got the letter saying finally I'd got in because it's a waiting list system And so it was just that quick thing of could I do that? And it's I've been waiting for this for two years. So no I won't do that. I've got to go to the Annaher theatre and See if I can be an actor. Yeah So you didn't have to think about it too long to realize. No no. it was just a sort of split second moment. Yeah, where you suddenly saw Yeah, different. Yeah And you know, for all that was going on at home with dad and everything I didn't want to cause any trouble And if I ran away That would cause a lot of trouble and a lot of upset And U I ever wanted that home was peace, peace and quiet. So Yeah, that would have really fuck things up for my brothers if I'd suddenly run away from home and, you know So yeah, I was a good girl. Well, it was the right call. Yeah. and I didn't get the Indian ink for my arm. Yeah Thank goodness. Okay, good. Yeah, because like what's the best case scenario of you going off with the clouch? I mean, it would have been cool. You would have had some good stories and who knows what opportunities might have tangentially arisen Yeah, but I wouldn't have liked that. Well making cups of tea for them and going to the shops and I don't think I'd have liked it. I mean what it might have done was led me to being in a band myself. Right, okay, you know becausecause sometimes I look back and I think, whyy didn't I do that? Why didn't I sort of form a band. I mean, I knocked about with bands But I think and I'm not saying this to get the violins out But I think because I wasn't considered pretty I think I just thought, I know I can't be the singer in a band because I'm not pretty and you sort of have to be pretty. You know, it's Debbie Harry, it's Polly Syrene, it's Suzie Sue. You know, they're all very attractive Girls, you know C h. Yeah, you know I guess Debbie Harry is the most conventionally attractive of those But the others have unconventional beauty. Yeah. and also, you know, you were not in any way a hideous young person But in the book, you do talk about this feeling of not being pretty. Yes. Yeah. that you sort of become aware of around twelve, thirteen or something like that. And there's a very upsetting d in there Which is so strange. You're getting ice creams. Oh, I was very young then. I must have been about eight or nine then So we were alleing the ice cream fan was there. There was a queue for the ice creams I didn't have money for an ice cream, but you sort of hovered around just in case somebody said what do you want? Anyway, there was a woman there cockney woman who was just walking past and said, I've had a win on the bingo who wants an ice cream So we were thrilled, do you know what I mean? And I was like, Yes, Mrs, thanks, Mrses and all that. And I had horrible teeth. And she just looked at me and she said, Oh, an't you ugly It was extraordinary I was Mortified. Of course. I was so embarrassed. But again, I just And I came back with on the best answer at the ugly bug ball dance And everyone laughed and they laughed more at me than they did at her, saying that So then when she gave me my ice cream, she said, I'm really sorry I said that, love. Yeah, that's almost the most upsetting part of the story in a way, Do you know what I mean? Yeah she Who says that to anyone, Who says that to anyone let alone child Well she obviously wasn't that bright. Right, okay. Do you know what I mean? But she was bright enough to understand that it was not okay to say it and then she sort of apologized afterwards. She had enough self awareness to do that. She did, but she just had a reaction to my But it wasn't your face though. It was something weird because you just look like a normal I know kid. Yeah You know, and Yeah, maybe she didn't like the look of your teeth or whatever it might have been, but it was like suchuch a strange thing and obviously you remembered it.viously Oh my go. Yeah, I've never forgot it. Well, exactly. All it takes is a O or two of those moments and that suddenly becomes how you think of yourself. Yeah. Oh, absolutely And I didn't write about this in the book and then when I was about thirteen You know, I had a couple of moments where a boy asked me out and I said yes and then he laughed and said, Are you mad? or don't want to go out of you? And you know what I mean? It was like a big joke So that didn't fucking L Pver, you know? So yeah, so I think I just resigned to the fact that oh I'll be the funny one then You know And he didn't help the Every friend I had, best friend seemed to be extremely pretty Do you know what I mean So maybe you gravitated towards those people, do you think? Like my thing was I didn't like being short And I ended up Marrying a tall woman, being friends with a lot of tall people? I don't know if it's just a coincidence. Yeah. That's funny, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, maybe I went towards the prettyty girls because also I wanted to be the one that was the funny one. I want it to be the funniest You know? Ultimately, that's more valuable currency. Isn't it they feel like Well, it's turned out that way, sure But It's way I saw an interview with you in nineteen eighty nine, I think. God on the set of a play, maybe? Wow. Being interviewed by the BBC and you were talking about the kind of parts that you were getting. Oh right. And you were saying You know, I get cast as the kind of weird friend of the pretty one and And you were saying, I don't mind because they're the best parts. Yeah. And you said you had been cast as the attractive wife and something and actually it was the most boring part. Yeah, yeah that' Yeah. But obviously you were still very aware of that. that narrative was still playing out in your head. And you know, I'm watching this interview and you look like a normal woman, Yeah. It's not like, whoa, look at her. Yeah, yeah So It was something that really stuck with you and I think And also I suppose you know Mums are very good at letting their daughters know that they pretty or they're attractive or if they're not you how to improve themselves. Do you know what I mean And so I never had that So I never sort of went home to anybody and said This woman just called me ugly And so no adults said, well, how fucking stupid was that person? So you know what I mean? I just sort of kept that to myself, really and held it in And just though Well, there's a truth to it, you know. Anyway, it's crazy, isn't it? And it just makes you realize that so many people have that kind of experience one way or another and they end up with a sort of very distorted picture of what they mean to other people. Exactly. You know, I've known so many notot just girls, but that have Terrible eating disorders because someone said, Oh, you're a bit fat or o you're getting a bit chubby And then the rest of their life is sort of fucked, you know insecurity and oh I better not eat that and I bet, you know, oh God, I'm going be fat and you know, How do you get out of that? I guess you you just sort of try and do what you are good at and realize that ye you can be a happy person, you can live a happy life by having the courage to be confident. I mean, that sounds like something you put on a mug. But I suppose I always came across as confident Because I would be funny, you know? Yeah. And you're write about goingoing out with this guy H It was a sweet guy but kind of just got radicalized by skinhead Yobs. Oh yeah, yeah And that's a sad story as well. Well, he was called Stave and he was lovely and he was my first boyfriend And he was a couple of years older than me But he was really gentle and he was funny Dolph And he was a punk And he looked like cid vicious. he had the black spiky hair and I just thought he was amazing And you know, it's that teenage going out where we went out together for a couple of months, two, three months, maybe at the most And then I wasn't seeing him that much because he was older than me. so he was going to gigs and he was going to parties and all the rest of it So I stopped going out with him. I packed him in But I said but we'll always be friends and he was like, yeah, you know, he was probably really glad, you know, I think he was just like, humoring me a lot of the time, you know But he was so lovely And then the next time I saw him, I'm You know, the skin ed things started to happen And I was a skinner myself And I'd heard somebody said, Oh Stve is a skinhe and he's got all these tattoos And I was like, well h Anyway, they've been Tble bank holiday, Monday, Tvel down on one of the seaside resorts And so the papers were full of this disgraceful fighting on the beaches and all that And on the front cover of one of the papers was this sort of very well known now photo. you can Google it and up it guns of this guy getting arrested, sticking his fingers up to the camera, looking really aggressive. And he had made in London tatooed on his head And it was sted I was Gobbsmacked. I just couldn't believe it So I rang his flat and his sister answered He had a lovely sister un called Julie She was terribly upset and said he's been arrested and he'll probably get put in a detention centre and all this business and somehow I found out, maybe it was her that told me That the first thing that was going to happen though was that he had to go to hospital because he had fuck off tatoo on one side of his neck and a Nazi swwastika on the other side of his neck So these had to be removed becausecause it was illegal to have offensive stuff like that exposed to the world So the judge ordered that he had to go to hospital and get these removed. So I went to visit him in the hospital. And it was so cute really. because you know, the hair was starting to grow over the toes on his head C he standing hospital pajamas bandages on his neck, you know He delighted to see me that I've gone to visit him. He said, Oh thankss for coming to visit me. He said, Can I have your dress? I don't know your dress because I'll write to you from the detention centre And I was like, o, I said, okay I said, but I can't be your girlfriend again though. And he went, Oh no, that's all right. I've got a girlfriend. She's coming late. I was. Okay. But he was a nice boy and it was sort of strange that This photo of him He looks so aggressive because he was acting the power. being an aggressive Skinhead That wasn't who he was at all really, you know? And that was around the time when Some of the punks were kind of appropriating the swastiker and using it as just a kind of catch all provocative Yes symbol rather than it being politically Waightited, is that right or? Yes. well, I don't know. I can't speak on his behalf about that because You know, the skin culture was getting hijacked by F right, The far right, the national Font and ENP, the British National Party So Who knows? who knows? I never had a discussion with him about that. How did you come to be a skinhead Music Just the music Yeah, it was when two timeone came out So I was sort too young to be a punk punk You know, I was a sort of part time plastic punk Because that was between the age of thirteen, fourteen then two tone hit And yeah, so I could be a skin it. The clothes were easier to access and there was a smartness to the clothes, you know, the Fred Perryess and the Ben Sherman' shirts and jeans and loafers, you know braces. so I really loved the look. I really loved beinging able to be boyish basically that it was of fashion to be boyish And that music was very politically utopian as well. Th Oh it was amazing. Mixed race bands and yeah, it was just a sort of vision of It was fantastic. Yeah. but there were still judgment about if you are skin e You know, people didn't know, they didn't know you, whether you were into the R music or whether you were into the politics of what that look was supposed to be giving off, do you know what I mean? That it meant that you were a racist, you know? Yeah. it was very Hot. Right, veryery confusing Yeah, schism there Hm And then some of the racists though were still into the music, right? Like they would show up at Some of the gigs, madness gigs and yeah, bad manners gigs or whatever. A lot of the time they wanted to cause trouble. right to fight and stuff, you know But I thought the specials and the selector and the beats, you know, I just thought they were brilliant I lo them. And then it was sort of strange when they started to become popular enough to be on top of the pops and stuff and then you're a bit oh no Oh fucking ell everyone likes themone What you mean ghost towns number one? What Shouldn't be number one. S shouldould be number one on the indie chart, not the fucking top of the pops chart, yeah, you know? God that was a good song M say But then you got told off by your sister in law? Yes Carmelita. Yeah. So my brother Barry met Carmelita You know, when they were nineteen, I think, eighteen, nineteen So yeah, so I was still a skinhead when I met Carme Barry wasort well, he was more what they called a suede headad So it was like you didn't do the full skinhead look, but you had the two tone suit and you were into the music and all that And she was herself She had a mix of sort of rockerabilly look and sort of punk but M Rockerabilly, you know I remember she used to wear bobby socks and o yeah, like that, you know. Yeah. She was so beautiful. She was so Yeah, she was mixed heritage from Hackney Because when she met my brother, they met at a party. And from her point of view, she said she just was frightened of this guy in the corner who just was staring at her. You know, this sort skinhe look in his two tone suit. And she just thought, he fucking hates me because I'm black and That guy wants to beat me up But I think from my brother's point of view, he basically fell in love at first sight And he just couldn't keep his eyes off her And then they would There was a big dance going on or whatever and she fell and he grabbed her. And Legend says that he said to her I'm never going to let you go And he didn't Hm and that was it, they were married a month after meeting And she moved in with us. So it was suddenly lovely to have another woman in the house. It was like, o my go, you can smell perfume in the air and do you know what I mean? It's just so nice But then I started to grow my hair out and I started to go to Anna sh's and she said to me, you know Yeah, I'm glad you're not into that anymore because when I first saw you, I just thought, o my God, who's this stupid little wanker You know Because that was it I tried to ingratiate myself towards her the very first time I met her by telling her a mildly racist joke. A huh. because I thought, Oh she'll like this. Charlie Williams this joke. It was a black comic on the telly She made it very clear that she didn't like that I wasn't to tell her those sort of jokes ever again And I didn't, and I never told anybody jokes like that ever again. Yeah, you know It was good. I was lucky that she came into my brother's life and therefore my life when I was young when I was still sort of impressionable, you know. I loved reading about the journey that you went on with Harry Mfield, all that lot. I didn't realize that Perry predated Yes. Kevin and Perry. Yeah. ye. How did that come about? Well, that was on Jonathan Ross show. The L Resort? No, it was another show. So it was after the Last Rort. So I'd done a character called Tina Bishop. Oh yeah, who's like a Northern. Yes who was from Yorkshire, was from Keithler And she was ourers and I and she was pregnant And the whole skit was, you know she had a bottle of beer and a fat egg while she's very heavily pregnant. And that was through working with Roland Rivveron and Simon Brint with their cabaret act raw sex And Rowand was doing work for the last resort, Rowand Rveron And he suggested I go on it as Tina Bishop So that was the first character I did on the last resesort And then it was a new, I think it was a Sunday night show. I can't remember what it was called that manag just the Jonathan Ross Show and it was live again and he had guests on But this time there was like a game show incorporated in it called Kock Gown Ginger. So there was a big wall of doors. and then there was a little one we'd come out as characters because it was a quiz for the audience members. So it was me Vicken Bob Paul White House and Charlie Higson. So we were all doing various characters and then the next week, because it was live Because I was thinking, why didn't I have a contract, like a proper contract And I think it wass because it was live, so they didn't know if the game show was going to happen every week So we would turn up, you know what I mean? and just say, o, are we going to be on? What's happening? you know And it was Paul that said to me, because I was feeling a little bit Oh Tina Bishop isn't getting as much exposure as she did on the last resort. You know, it's all very quick and all that. And I don't know what happened, but they suddenly needed another character Paul White has said to me, I think you'd be really good doing a little boy character and I thought, o that's a good idea. So Anyway, there was a costume room in there or whatever. so I wangled together a sort of uniform. but I knew I didn't want to be like little Jimmy Cranky. Do know what I mean? So then I remember thinking, ah No, not a little boy, a teenage boy Be I said to Paul, if he's a teenage boy, he's going through puberty So therefore his voice is breaking And I remember Paul going, well, that's good. He went Averid to it and he'd go Well I dy spe so be a bit like that. They been every day again. He would go a little bit bit high And then you' go quite ld again. So Paul was like, that's great. and he said, you should call him you know, we were trying to think of names. and Paul said, Terry and I went No, Perry because I had a mate called Perry, Perry Fenick. So that was Perry's first appearance was on that Jonathan Ross show. Yeah. and he was Perry the Pubescent teenager So yeah, I think I only did him twice. I certainly didn't do him more than twice Because then I left the show. Well, you found out that you weren't getting paid the same as the other blugs I found out the boys were getting more than me, which is sort of the norm. It's still like that But I just thought it was outrageous because I mean, Vit Reeves had done the last result But nobody else had done the last resort, so I just thought Hang in a minute, I did the last result. Tayab Bishop went down a stone on the last result Now I'm doing this show It's less money than I got on the last result because there's more people. so I sort of understood that. there's more performers. but then it was Paul again who unknowingly just sort of told me what the money was that they were getting And it was like fifty quid more than me or whatever. And I just thought, hang on her minutes. We're all doing the same amount of work You know? And I did double check with Paul Whitehouse actually when I was writing it. you know, I rang him up and said Paul, were you a writer on that Jonathan Ross show Is that why you got more money No, no, no. he said I was just performing the same as you. So I was like, right, right So I didn't Go back. I think there were like two or three shows left I was impressed by that when I read that because I just thought I think a lot of people would just be so grateful for the break and you're on TV and it's like, well It'll lead to something else, but you had the confidence then to think actually no. Yeah, I mean the stupidity, I don't know. I just sort of remember thinking They excent, what am I doing This see stupid What else were you doing at the time? L what was the alternative for you Well, unpaid fringe theatre work, you know, box office is split every now and again waiting for Don and Jennifer to put me in a sketch so I could get a bit of money, you know They were doing comic strip stuff with They were doing comic strip stuff But at the same time I was doing serious theatre work and plays, you know All that sort of stuff and things like BC schools programs and You know what I mean? I was just a jobbing actor, really who was suddenly involved in the comedy world a bit more Who else was doing becausecause as soon as you see Tina Bishop you Look at it on YouTube now Your commitment to the character? I really I've not watched it for well, I've never watched it, really? Yeah, it's good. Is it alright? 'causeuse I think back and I think, o, that must have been awful No. It's good. It's like, well you can act. It's not sort of silly and mad. You know what I mean? Right It's more the approach that the League of Gentlemen would have taken. Do you know what I mean? It' Right. That kind it's coming from an acting place Yeah rather than as mad comedy pl. Yeah, no whichich makes it funnier and better. Yeah. Tina used to really divide the crowd becausecause half the crowd would be like, o my god This is really bad. This is obviously someone with special needs that they've allowed on stage, you know? And then the other half the audience sort of got it The influences back then were people like Peter Cook. because Peter Cook would go on to Joonathan Ross and Clive Anderson as characters and also the brilliant Barry Humphrees doing less Patterson and then Day Medna So I think it was sort of from that school for want of a better word, you know And then you bumped into Peter Cook. When was that Well, that was I didn't bump into him. He was waiting for me in my dressing room. And that was a big charity show. Yes. Yeah Yeah, it was charity for Amnesty International And I did Tina Bishop. on that So I decided that Tina had got confused and thought it was Amnesia International. So she sang memories It was terrible really. but yeah, it was quite exciting to do because you know, my Haling was on there In fact, it was directed by Jennifer Saunders and John Clees So I think it was Jennifer that sort of got me involved and I come and do Tina Bishop, you know But I found the whole thing quite terrifying just because of the people, you know, Peter Cook and Dudley Moore and The Pythons and I felt like a tiny little tadpole in this massive poool of huge fish, you know I think it was the last night because I did three shows. it was three nights. And then I went into my dressing room at the end of doing my bit and Peter Cook was fucking sat in my room on the floor. It was quite pissed and I went o Hello I said I think you're in the wrong room No, no, I'm not in the wrong room, he said He said, I just wanted to tell you, he said, I think you're a fucking genius Not as thanks very much, but also I was thinking there are no witnesses I no fucking witnesses. Why are you saying this to me? Why aren't you saying that out on stage? you know what I mean? But yes, I was very embarrassed Thrilled, thrilled to bits. and yeah, but I just got very, very shy I still amt quite I get quite shy around very, very famous people I sort of don't know what to say to them You know? Is that only if you like what they do or is it anyone who happens to be very well known. Yeah, I think. well, obviously there's a bit more of an edge to it if you're a fan. Yeah, you know. Were you a fan of the Pogues when you worked with Shane McGowan on Straight to Hell? Oh yeah, yeah. Were you excited about the prospect of going out there and Joe Drummer was on that film. I mean God, so excited. Elvis Costella. So this was straight to Hell, the Alex Cox movie. and yeah, it was like a who's who of sort of indie music and film. Jim John Mouche was in it and Dennis Hopper turned up, Grace Jones turned up. I mean, it was crazy. It was a crazy job There was a lot of drugs, you know what I mean? And I of course, by then, I'd been acting for about four or five years. I was just like, this is so unprofessional. I just couldn't believe the sort of not so much the debauchment, but Alex just allowing these improvisations to go on and on and on and they were terrible. It was rubbish And I used to say him much go, this is fucking rubbish, Alex I mean, I thought the script was rubbish But I thought I'm still going go. I'm going to go to spine, you know what I mean? And Hang out with Joe Strummer and the Poges and you know It was good fun. B I was always a bit of an old bag What was it about knows. I don't know. The script made no sense. I'm Googling straight to hell synopsis nineteen eighty seven, Surreal spaghetti Western parody directed by Alex Cox follows three bungling hitmen and their pregnant gun mole after robbing a bank They get stranded in a desert town inhabited by a hostile coffee addicted gang Yeahes, sounds great, doesn't it Are you going do more acting? Probably not, but never say never. Never say never. Last thing I did I did a little bit for Stephen Queen in a film he did called Blitz. Oh yes. That was out a couple of years ago. pereriod Dama. Yes, because I love Steve McCain It was just great to work with him and be in his company for a few days. And he actually encouraged me to write my memoirs A, okay because he said, Oh what are you doing? what are you doing next? And I said, Oh I don't know. I'm sort of ha'ming an mring about whether to do a book, to do a memoir. And he just said, it's very important. It's very important. Working class stories are very, very important You know you've got to think about the next generations and you know, they need those positive You know know So then when I finished it, I wrote to him and said, Well, you've gott toa fucking give us a quote because I don't think I'd have written it without you saying you have to. Yeah, you know. And now you're working on part two I'm not working on it. I'm having a break And I'm in a break. And I'll probably start working a partart two next year But I do think the second book isn't going to be as sort of joyous as because the second book is full of illness, menopause, do you know what I mean and being quite bitter. about a lot of things that went on. I saw a friend yesterday and I said, Oh God, I think the second book could be called and other animals because you know I think there'll be a whole chapter on Cnts. The Twitter years. Yes and the Twitter years and all that. There's a lot of laughs there though, come on, I think you're still minding the comedy. Yeah, I'll try and make it as light as possible. I don't I don't think it'll be as because I loved writing about the child even though the child was quite Frickay It was still lovely to write Yeah and going to Anna Sa' and just the excitement of suddenly being in The industry being in show business, it was like my go, you know? Yeah. That was very vividly conveyed. it was wonderful. well, thank you, Adam. I do appreciate it. and Maybe we'll meet again when Volume two is out If I'm still here, I'm in fucking L sixty two Tik tk Tik tok, Tik took I saw Kevin Bishop a couple of weeks back. Do you know Kevy? Yeah Yeah ye. And I went for a walk with him down in Brighton because that's where he lives I can't remember how old he is. he's just coming up to the fifties, I think. And I said, Well, I'm sixty two in June. he went sixty two. He was so disgusted R the now What sixty two Oh Hucky now. I know in that when we were growing up, it would have seemed impossibly old. I mean, people in their fifties were very old in those days. like They were old guys, you know, with grreay hair and bowola hats and A lot of them, you know what I mean? Yeah, but I think we're kidding ourselves because I think people In their twenties do think we're old Yes, fair enough, ye I technically, I suppose we I know what you mean. I think you know, I was talking to a friend of mine Dominic John Gaul the other day and we were talking about because Now we seem to be going to funerals, but we were talking about the dress code of the funeral and how much that has changed over the years, which is really good And I said to him, well, we've got hip hop to thank for that. And he said, really, why hip hop And I said because of the trainers So now we are all allowed to wear trainers and that definitely came from hip hop Did don't you think, Adam? I suppose that was part of it. Yes, turning the idea of trainers into something that was fashionable and smart. And then realising we can be comfortable. We're allowed to be comfortable. We don't have to be in stiff brogie type hard shoes, you know? Yes. We can be in nice Soft trainers What about this Maybe it's good for us sometimes to be uncomfortable That's what my parents would have thought. I think Maybe they wouldn't have expressed it so directly but I think they would have thought Sometimes you shouldn't be comfortable Sometimes it is appropriate to be in an itchy suit and to be in uncomfortable shoes. and that's what you do when you go to church. and it's not all about being comfortable. and in fact People are altogether too comfortable these days. Well I agree when it comes to men But we are constantly uncomfortable because we have to wear bras. Okay. so Yes. So therefore you should wear hard shoes. Yeah Now that feeling you get when you take off a pair of hard shoes at the end of the day. that have been so uncomfortable And then your fate just fill So bliss That's what it's like when a lady takes a bra off at the end of the day. It really is like, o my go, thank God for that Thank goodness and relax. I mean, do women still wear bras because forgive me for asking you Do women still mainly wear bras? for social reasons because they feel that's what's expected of how they should look or is it for practical reasons or I don't really know. Well, I think it's a bit of both and I mean, listen I love to be relaxed, but I wouldn't dream of leaving the house without my bra on becausecause I don't want to be shouted at in the street. What would they shout Seagyits? Surely, surely we've got beyond people shouting. Not round here, mate people start singing swing low, sweet chariot Anyway, how did this come about? this conversation? Being comfortable at funerals because they' getting older. That's Kevin Bishop is so disgusted by your I mean being being unt sixty. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean that was the old image of what it was to be old was when I'm sixty four, you know, it was like Yeah, That'll be when you are more or less at the end of your life because you will have lived three school years and ten is all you're going to get. right Yeah Yeah. and now people are living longers. Yeah Now you got a whole other chapter when you're in your sixties, you hope Yeah. Do you feel that way U Well, it's sort of you come to terms with the fact that it's possibly the last chapter That's what you come to terms with, I think I mean, I've spoken to a couple of mates about this that Be I had no problem reaching forty, I had no problem reaching fifty. But when I was approaching sixty, every time I thought about it, my tummy turned over because it was like Oh fuck. You can't say, well, sixty's the new faultty because it isn't Do you know what I mean? sixty is sixty, you know And I know we're living longer and everyone's sort of keepeps themselves young in a much healthier world in a way. you know people are into fitness and healthy food and all that caper. If you've got to sixty or beyond, it's sort of o right, okay, you're very lucky. to reach This far But you well, I'm speaking for myself personally, I had to face up to the fact o crumbs, okay This is heading towards We ain't What did that feel like? Did that make you depressed It just well, like I said, it just made me feel a bit sick Every time I thought about. Yeah, yeah. It's sort of strange. you know what I mean? I was on a radio four programme the other day It was one of those shows we you have to kind of like coin new terms or phrases for things And I won't tell you the phrase I came up with, but I was trying to come up with something that described that sort of thing, that moment when you feel time moving in an unpleasant way when you're suddenly aware of it. And at various points in my life, I've had it I had it when my daughter was young And she was changing so fast from one month to the next. Yeah And you know, I would film her on my phone being sweet And looking back Like later that day could feel the moment Yeah, pulling away and Yeah and and it gave me like an actual, you know, not sharp but a pain in the chest to feel it moving away. Yeah. And then you suddenly become aware of how time works and suddenly in that moment you project yourself forward to maybe much further in your life or maybe towards the end of your life and suddenly time becomes this really unpleasantly elastic thing that is not working in your favour. Well that's it. But those are just moments though, right? Like phhilosophically, you're supposed to be trying to live in the momentes and not get trapped in those. That's it and not worry too much about the future and just go with the flow You know, and you can. Are you okay at doing that Mot of the time? Yeah, yeah But you know, like I went to see a play the other day at the young Vic. There's a play on there called Care which is set in an old people's home A sort of council run old people's home and It was brilliant. that It was so Real And you've got Linda Bassett, who I personally think is one of the greatest actors to ever live. Wh would I know her from? Well I suppose sort of commercially she's known for although I've never watched it, but she's known for being in callall the midwife. Oh yeah, okay. Linda's like a brilliant theatre actress. Do you know what I mean? That's what she's mostly known for. And you know, so you're basically watching the last sort of A couple of seasons, I think, of her life in this care home where she slowly deteriorates. you know, she's there At the beginning we see her and she's very alert and astute and like, well, I've had an accident. I'm only here for a day or whatever or in a denial. And then of course, we see the months drift past and we see her slowly becoming Oh, very old. and needing more and more help And then we basically slowly watch her die and was incredible and astonishing and It's a work of art, really, this play Well I'll pop out with the family and see that on my birthday. But that's the fucking problem, you say, because It's such a great piece of art. Yeah But it's so difficult to recommend it to pure. I mean, I can appreciate that it is amazing to see something like that. but you sort of think, God, it's hard enough to make time to do anything these days and Maybe I won't prioritize that one specifically. But it's a mistake. I appreciate that you know, seeing those things is always something that is rewarding. But I'm so reluctant sometimes to make the time it's like father with Olivia Coleman and Anthony Hopkins. Oh, that was great. That should feel. Well Yeah everyone who's seen it says it's amazing. You can't see it, but I'm like. I just don't know when the right time for the incredibly upsetting, father with Dmentia movie is going to be. I'm the same with really violent stuff Yeah about young people. you know what I mean? Yeah people young gangs, people shooting each other and I won't waste my time watching those things anymore. The play you described though, what's it called again? C, care So what does it give the audience? Why do you feel good about having seen a play like that other than just appreciating the craft? Well, what did it give you? You know, an understanding of the cuts that have been made in the NHS and that it affects everybody and it shows the carers, the nurses The good thing about the play is that there's at no point any sort of official coming in and giving numbers and statistics and Oh, but they can't have fruit in the bowl anymore because we can't afford it. Do you know what I mean? And I think that's sort of what's brilliant about it. It's just very subtly letting you know how hard this is But it's also letting you know about grief and how to deal with grief and I mean, there were a lot of people in the audience that were upset, you know because people have been through this with their parents or You know, I went to a matinee so you know what I mean? the demographic of the audience were're also thinking How far away is this for us? because you've got a character in there played by the brilliant Haley Carl Michael who's only late Faulbies who's got early on set dementia. Late forties early fifty, you know what I mean? So Yeah, I don't know what I got from it really. It was very funny. I went with my young friend Tom and young friend, he's in his forties, but he's my young friend and my taxi driver friend Lee was waiting for us to take us home. And usually, you know, come out of the theatre and I all smiles and Lee's like, Oh was that one? I go, o, that was this Anyway, we both came out. were we were completely wrecked been crying nonstop, I think for the last half hour of the play, just quietly weeping. This is going to be good for the poster. I cried non stop Well, I did do a little thing about it on Instagram and I said be prepared to be a quivering wret. And the young vicar replied to me saying, Can we quote quivering Rg Yes, yes. Okay, thank you, Kathy. Thank you, Taly Oh this is nice. It's a aboutad fucking time isn't it. Hey, Wlcome back Podcats. That was Kathy Burke talking to me there earlier this month, June And I'm very grateful to Kathy for letting me come over and record with her. It was lovely to see her. And as you've probably realised by now, I thought her memoir was fantastic. A mind of my own. I put a link to the audio book in the description but as of A few weeks ago, it is also out in paperback. So how you doing podcats hope everything's all right with you. Wherever you are whenever you're listening to this It's a funny old June, I'll tell you that much. As I speak It is a beautiful evening but quite cold Not especially Juny. Me, Oh, I'm doing fine. It's very nice to have Success Pod out in the world and I've had some nice responses to it so far. I'm really glad that people seem to be enjoying it. I'm actually going to be talking to another Success Pod guest, Louis Thoreux in a forthcoming episode, Louis, as well as being a guest was also one of the producers on the show. It was made through his production company Mindhouse. I've been kicking around the idea for a long time and I hadn't taken it to Louis and his partner, Nancy, who run the company a few years back, I probably would never have got it made. Anyway, I'm going to talk to Louis a bit about Success Pod, a bit about the manosphere and Other odds and sods. I hope that fairly soon I'll be able to give you some details about an exciting live Adam and Joe show, anniversary event in which myself and cornballs will get together on stage, play some classic clips, some rare nuggets and do some live waffling. Because it was thirty years ago that the first series of the Adam and Joe showh was broadcast on channel four. So the plan is to get together and do a handful of live shows to celebrate that anniversary. But we are still waiting final confirmation on exact dates and venues I will let you know as soon as I hear more. All right, that's it for this week's episode. Thanks to Claire Broughton and Diggory Wait at Hattrick for production support and editing from Diggory. Thanks also to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for additional production support. Thanks to everyone at ACAS who works hard, liaising with my sponsors Much appreciated. Thank you to Helen Greene for her beautiful artwork I think she might be coming up with a design for an unabsorbent tea towel, which we're hoping to make available at the Adam Buxton Band shows next week at Howxton Hall Sure, it might have been a good idea to sort that out at the beginning of the tour rather than for the end. But you know me, that's A little bit too organized. Anyway, thanks, most especially to you for coming back to this podcast and listening right to the end. That's I mean blimy. That's pretty nice, I think. That's why I'm proposing a creepy hug. You don't get a creepy hug at the end of the rest is politics Rogan doesn't give you a creepy hug. Who gives you a creepy hug apart from buckles? I don't want to know, but I'm offering you one right now. So switch off if you don't want one. Hey, how you doing? comeome here. Good to see you Ah, you smell very freshly laundered Until the next time that you and I share the same sonic space. Please go carefully for goodness. like one day you think, o, it's fine. I don't need to go carefully. everythingvery's fine. That's exactly when you need to go most carefully Yeah But look, for what it's worth, I love you. Bye Subscribe