Pathways to Healing and Future Intimacy

for boys, there's such a emphasis on them in terms of you know the looks maxim trend, and they really, really want to impress women, which is understandable. But I don't think worrying about the size of your jaw or your mandibible or thinking about taking like steroids at such a young age is necessary to attract women. but this is where we are, unfortunately Hey everyone, it's Andrew Clan with this week's interview with Dr. Deborah Soow. Dr. Soo is a neuroscientist who specializes in human sexuality. She has a book out called Sextinction, which talks about the fact that people are not having sex. And one of the many of you may not know this, but one of the results of that is people are also not having babies could mean the death of human society. So it is an important and interesting topic you can find Dr. So at Dr. Deborah So that's D E B R A S O H dot. And again, the book is called seextincture eborah it's nice to meet you. It it's nice for you to come on. how are you Hi Andrew, thank you for having me. I'm very well. I hope you have me a good day. I am. than you. And let's begin at the beginning, I guess and talk about are people it seems like people are having less sex. Everybody says they're having less sex. Do we know that I was similarly skeptical as to whether people were actually having less sex. And so this study came out in twenty sixteen and it showed for the first time that Americans were having less sex than ever before across the board. But this was particularly the case for millennials. And this trend was expected to continue on for Gen Z. So since then, there have been multiple studies coming out showing that the same trend is happening Around the globe, it's not just here here in the West. it's also in the east It doesn't matter whether you're married or single, what age cohort or generation you're part of, It seems everyone is having less sex than before. But this is particularly pronounced among millennials and Gen Z, and especially among young men. So the statistic I keep seeing is that roughly one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past year, which is very many people And so in sext extinction, I looked at why is this the case? My interest in the decline in sex is partially because I used to study human sexuality scientifically, but also because lack of sex or lack of interest in sex is also a reflection of a lack of connection, a lack of emotional intimacy. And I do think that we as a society are much more disconnected and alienated than we have been previously So each chapter in sex sinction goes into a potential reason or technology as to why I think this trend is happening and what we can do to hopefully reverse things. And I wrote the book very much as a guide for parents in terms of trying to protect your kids from what's coming down the line in terms of the advancements and the ways in which we can push back. because we see the negative effects of social media and screens and what that's done to young people in terms of their development. And we have new technology coming in like AI chatbots. I know this is something you've talked about before Um I'm not sure how graphic I can get on your show, but basically we'll see similations of human forms that we'll be replacing in person activity. essentially robots, things like pornography and platforms like On Fans and young women selling themselves, which is know quite devastating. J these societal trends that are being pushed on young people that I think are leading us astray and also leading us to seek replacements for sex that are actually not healthy. So You know, onene of the things that's always a little delicate about talking about this is that it used to be, I mean, thirty years ago, forty years ago, the people worried about young people having sex too young, that they were getting involved before they were ready, that they were, you know losing their way and not finding their way to marriage or becoming depressed or pregnant when they didn't want to be. Is that less of a problem now? I mean, that has that problem gone away and been replaced with this problem Critics of the sex recession and critics of my book have said, well, actually young people are making better decisions about sex, and that's whyre not they're abstaining. It's not that they are disinterested or what have you. It's that when you do look at, say teenage pregnancy rates, they are low. they've gone down, which is a good thing. But when you look at something like sexually transmitted infections thoseose cases in teenagers have actually skyrocketed. So if you look at things like syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea all extremely high in teenagers. So this suggests that while there has been an overall decrease in sexual activity, of young people who are having sex, they're not doing it safely and they're probably not using contraception. So I would argue if people are not having sex and they're happier, then that's fine. But my sense is most people are not actually It's not necessarily a choice that's being made. and It's not something that they're actually happy about. And another one of the chapters in seext extinction goes into endocrine disruptors and environmental toxins. And I do think there's something happening at a biological level because when you can look at, say teenagers and adolescents. So there's one study done that was very carefully done. I'm always very concerned when there's research done involving children or adolescents asking them questions like this. So it involves parental consent. so it was very carefully done And what they found is that in adolescence there's actually been a widespread decline in masturbation as well. So that's very unusual because that is when Adolescents are coming into adulthood and that's usually when they have the most interest in sex at least crushes on their same age peers. So the fact that that sexual activity or Rather that behavior is at a decline as well, speaks in my mind that there's something larger going on here that we may not even fully be aware of or be fully accounting for it because why is it that young people just seem to have a complete absence of interest in it? Yeah, are there theories about what it might be that's causing that when you say environmental Yes, well, there's been a decline in testosterone in men for the past forty, fifty years. It's been especially pronounced in the last twenty years. and researchers do believe it's something in the contemporary environment that it's not due to diet, exercise, alcohol or drugs or lifest style choices. It's very much specific to this environment and There's research suggesting that it could be Zo estrogen, so things that are synthetic or natur occurring estrogens that feminize men this has been shown in animals. So if you take male say fish or frogs and you expose them to things like pesticides or plastics or pharmaceutical waste It can actually lead to intersex conditions. which is quite terrifying So it makes me wonder at what level this is happening to humans What else is there? I mean, it's something like birth control, antidepressants. So these are I actually I wrote a piece for the Daily Wire recently about this. We don't actually know the long term effects of either of these classes of drugs on addolescent sexual development So that's very concerning. There have been many research studies in animals suggesting that it can affect say how the brain develops but we would need more research to know definitively. And so I find that very concerning because when those changes take place, it's questionable, can they be reversed So the other causes you looked at were they mostly technological, were the things practices that have come upon us because You know, we've got computers, we've got an iPhone, Is that is that the sort of thing you're looking at I looked at a range of possible explanations. So yes, technology is a big piece of it. I think there are social causes as well, things like me too, which really has terrified men away from basically staying away from women and wanting to approach women they don't know or even women they do know There's no flirting in the workplace. I mean, understandably, I think sexual harassment is not ever a good thing, but at the same time, it's to the point now where The sexes really don't want to and also to some extent don't know how to engage with one another anymore I think also just small talk and chatting with the strangers is seen as uncouth or uncomfortable. And especially with Gen Z, I'd say because they grew up So immersed online. digital interactions, text interactions are very much the norm for them. And I don't blame them for this. I don't blame their parents for this. I don't think we had any idea back then what the long term effects were going to be potentially But I do think it has affected their development in some ways. Many of them struggle with anxiety There's research coming out now showing that in terms of say brain structure and function, there are changes associated with excessive screen time. So that can affect functioning. that can affect something called executive function. So it's planning, attention, emotion regulation, communication, language acquisition, all these really important skills you need to survive and thrive in society. and then things like AI chatbots More research show out that this is becoming more popular, especially among teenage boys because they are scared to talk to girls and don't want to get into trouble. so they're actually preferring these chat bots to their same aged peers pornography, I think, has also done a lot of damage to this generation And also social media brought more broadly in terms of affecting both sexes in their self esteem, their body image, how they think they should look to the opposite sex and what they want their partners to look like. And then also for boys, there's such a emphasis on them in terms of the looks maxing trend. and they really, really want to impress women, which is understandable. But I don't think worrying about the size of your jaw or your mandibible or thinking about takingib like steroids at such a young age, it is necessary to attract women. but this is where we are, unfortunately You know, one thing I can't help but notice is that att least I won't say on the extremes further out than the center There seems to be a real hostility between men and women. I noticed this when I first came to work here at the Daily Wires like about ten, eleven years ago And I was suddenly surrounded by young men You know, I was working with a lot of young men. And I was shocked at the things they would say about women. I mean, I've been an athlete most of my life, I've been in a lot of locker rooms. andard I've heard all the things that men say in locker rooms. I never heard a man say anything disrespect disrespectful about his wife I never heard anybody say anything like that in a locker room. I suddenly noticed that people were making the same kind of comments that young men would make when I was a kid, Oh, women, they like they werere emotional, they're crazy, they're this, they that. But they weren't saying it with affection. We were always saying it like, you know, it was women are strange creatures, but we love them. They were saying it with real anger. I don't know whether that's feminism. I don't know whether that's changes in the law Is that something that appears in your research at all hundred percent, Oh my goodness. the animosity between the sexes is unreal right now. I really like the commentary you've done on this because I feel it's very balanced And I tried to in sex sinction be very fair as well and to say, okay, it doesn't matter which sex it is, if you guys are acting like lunatics, I'm going to tell you Th these are the things we need to think about to try and heal this divide. And so I definitely think you see this rage and hostility between the sexes And I think part of it is yes, feminism, that feminism, especially because it's so deeply ingrained in the education system and also mainstream culture, young boys understandably feel aggrieved They feel it's unfair that they're being penalized. I think feminism at the core did some good things for women's rights and equality, but it's gone way too far off the mark now to the point where it is openly discriminating against Men and it's actually advocating that women hate men and that we don't need men. And you know quote unquote or hashtag unalive all men, things like that. So Young men understandably say, Well, we don't want to be discriminated against, That's not fair. What did we do to deserve this. So then you see these manisterotype influencers coming in and saying, Well, we'll show you what it's like to be a man. You don't need to listen to all these awful feminists, Th these femin Nazis will you know, we like you, we like your masculinity. Here's what it means to be a man, which But their portrayal of masculinity and manhood is just as toxic. I think they' mirror images of each other. And so then what happens is young feminists say, See, we can't trust men. Look what they're doing. They're trying to still subjugate us. And so it goes back and forth like that I think the solution really is that the mainstream culture hopefully We might be waiting a while, but in mainstream institutions, take this issue seriously that you cannot sit here and insult men and say that men are worthless or whatever, have an absolute no empathy for men, no compassion for men, and uplift women and give them tons of opportunities and think that that's okay and that these men are not going to be really upset about this and push back against it. And the other thing is another issue in terms of the dating market is that because women tend to date up, so they're hypergramus They are going to be very reluctant to date or marry someone who is less successful than they are. But women are far succeeding their male peers in terms of education and occupation. And I don't think this is purely because society is biased. I do think women are obviously very capable of being successful and ambitious. But there are some cases in which men, especially white and Asian men, are openly being penalized in terms of education, in terms of hiring. And so what you have then instead is this very small pool of men who are very successful, who can pick whomeever they want in terms of partners or have very many partners and not really have to invest anything. And then you have women who are all fighting over the same pool of men, and then very many other men who've been shut out completely who have no chance of really dating. And so they go down the re of these all other alternatives to real life partners, but then also I think, deeper into this ideology of hating women So Yeah, it's quite a mess and if it really doesn't take much of an excavation on social media to see the evidence of this because there's no end of the amount of toxicity and people just vanting about how awful dating is and how much the opposite sex is terrible. But what I found interesting is there was a poll that was published more recently, it was probably in last month or two showing that there's actually more Young women under the age of twenty five actually show more radicalization and hatred of men than of the same age of young men showing hatred of young women. So of women aged eighteen to twenty five It was One third of them they said they had a positive view of men, which is not very many, whereereas roughly seventy percent of young men said the same of women.m twice, basically. what are more than twice young men have more favorable views of young women. So I'm a little butchering the results. I'm not saying the most clearly. But esssentially, there's a lot of talk about how the manosphere is so toxic and men are all misogynistic nowadays, but there's an equal movement on the other side that is really invigorating young women into hating men. And I think we need to call both sides out because it's really not going well Yeah, no, it's obviously a disaster. We're talking to doctor Deborah So, the name is speed SO H. The book is seex extinction, the decline of sex and the future of intimacy. Now I've talked a lot on the show about pornography and it's a huge topic. I mean, I think it's like having some kind of a culvert just gushing poison out into in the psychology of people. So I guess I guess let's hit on that at least it seems silly not to talk about it Is that It hard to believe. It is hard for me to believe when you tell me that a young man prefers pornography to an actual living human being, but that does seem to be happening. that that Yeah, yeah. It's much more common than I think well it's actually no it's out in the itgeist now. I would say that's you would think that'd be something that people would want to keep to themselves, but no there are very many at least in my experience from the research I've done and people I've talked to and also what I see online is in forums and people discussing this. men are saying, we are done with women We'd rather have our AI girlfriends, which is basically customized pornography or buying pornography through platforms like only Fans or uploading our AI girlfriend into a doll eventually so that it can simulate a real life partner or some semblance of a real life partner because they're so fed up with women. Part of it, again, I think, is due to this animosity that they've been ingesting, but also because It is scary for men too don't want to get they don't want to have their life ruined if they say talk to the wrong woman or if they engage with the wrong woman, and she decides after that, it's not consensual. It's sad, but at the same time, in terms of the mechanisms, why pornography activates the same brain network that is activated during actual sexual activity. So what happens is when someone is looking at porn They are essentially their minds being tricked into feeling as though they're experiencing the sex they're watching on a screen. And I think especially for Gen Z, They were exposed to porn at such a young age. know the average child today sees porn at age twelve. One in seven kids sees it at the age of ten or younger. Resesearchers in the field have said it's much younger, it's getting younger, younger And so They see that, they don't know what it is, but I think some of them are quite scared by it, but others are curious and they will come back to it and that becomes something that they frequent even before they have their first crush or their first kiss or their first date or their first experience at any capacity. So that becomes the baseline for them. They've never experienced it with a real person. They've never experienced maybe even like flirtation, really. fromrom that perspective, I can only imagine what it's doing to children's development and So that could also speak to why this cohort of younger men may really prefer these images or say a much more sanitized Um interaction. But I also think again, going back to You know, when you're watching porn and you're having an orgasm If any of this is too graphic you just pleat me out. No, no, no, Essentially, they are getting gratification from something that previously would have taken a lot of work and effort So usually say for a man were to have a sexual experience he would need to Dress nicely, have social skills Have the courage to ask woman out on a date, haveave her say yes then take her out, plan the date makeake sure she gets home safely, hopefy and then follow up and say, wouldould you like do c again, and do this a bunch of times and not know if she was ever going to actually sleep with him. And there's a chance that he might do all those things and still have her say no at the end. So now instead, you don't have to do any of that. As a man, if you feel frustrated, sexually frustrated, you can just pull out your phone and take care of things. And so for I think a generation of young men, they're thinking, well, why am I going to bother with all this other stuff if I can just get the incident releasase. But I don't think they realize that You know, there's a cost to that as well and that the more you have an orgasm from watching porn, it sedates you. so that frustration that would have motivated you to go out into the world and build things and be productive and achieve goals and do difficult things, it actually disincentivizes you from doing those things, which then also makes it more difficult for you to attract real life women because those are the things that women look for in a partner. You know, the other side of this though is, I mean, one thing that has been told to me by people who deal with younger people like school teachers and things like that is that the str you know The structure where a man is trying to get something that a woman has sex and has to do all the things you just listed has completely dissolved and women are taking as the yes as the default setting. And Louise Perry has written about this about how this is women in this terrible position where they if you go out with somebody, you're expected to sleep with them. And I have heard people say that, yeah, that's the way the world is. I mean, it's so different. I grew up in the transition point where I as a Young, young man, I assumed I would marry a virgin went through the sixties and then that all fell apart But still you had to do the work to get a woman to be attracted to you and care about you enough to sleep with you at all. But now apparently that is gone. And I wonder, I hear a lot of women talking about their body count and it's mind boggling. And you think I don't know. I would be put off by that. just being honest about it. I would probably not even want to go out with a girl who had had a body count of like a hundred or something like this. So So isn't is that a problem too? or is that just the way things are Oh, for sure. I mean I don't think casual sex is good for either sex. I do advocate in sex extinction for less promiscuity for both sexes. I can understand a little bit. I try to why women might take pride in promiscutity because I do think to some extent that previously the view has been, okay Men can sleep with however many women they want and women will be castigated for that so called slut shame. So I could see why some young women or women in general will rebel against that and say, well, no, I should be allowed to sleep with whomever I want and not be judged for it. But at the same time, what is the cost of that? And what is that doing to you? And the reason why I think slut shaming or the reason why slut shaming exists is because When people say it's predominant or I guess the left wing narrative is that this is something that men do to women, but women do it to each other as well. Women will denigrate their competitors. theirir sexual rivals essentially call them promiscuous so that men will lose interest in them because they know that sexual chastity is something that men value in women So I think this message of promoting promcutity in young women, especially is to some extent, women trying to cut out their competition by telling other women to be promiscuous so that other men won't take them seriously. So I do think you, taken too far, that's why you have these manosphere guys saying all they care about is body count. They all you know they only care about a woman's body count in all women, especially educated women. they are all promiscuous and they're all feminist and they're going to be horrible to deal with and they're going to cheat on you. And and cuckled you and things like that There is some truth to what they're saying. I just don't think that it needs to go so far in either direction. And then the other thing with young women is that it's not good for you to be having casual sex with very many partners. that doesn't make why would that ever be good for anybody? R? Sex is such an intimate process and then the other thing is with women More oxytocin is released during sex than for men. So women get more attached to a man after sex. And the other thing is for men After they have an orgasm, their bonding hormones go down to zero, go back to baseline. So they actually disengage after sex So it's a completely different experience for men on average. And so if you as a woman are having sex with someone you don't know very well, and their risks like pregnancy, sexually transmitted infections actually are at a higher risk to women due to the anatomy of their bodies So If you are going to these situations thinking that you're going to behave or feel the same way Amand does, you're going to be very, very mistaken. And I think this is also adding to the polarization and the hatred that women feel towards men because If they have a bad experience like this, a man just gets up the knaves after and doesn't care. If anything slut shames or after, she's going to be really upset and she's not going understand why this has happened. And it's not that she needs to keep having sex with men that she doesn't know in order to get over these feelings, but it's actually that it's really not designed for women you know, aside from the The fact that young people are missing out on one of the great pleasures and comforts and bonding experiences of life The human race seems to be dying. I mean, people are having babies, which I understand I've heard is connected to sex. And not anymore. anymore You've got all these devices where you can watch porn. You've got this animosity between men and women. You've got philosophies on both the male and the female side that deniggrate the opposite sex. Do you have some path back to a world where people can act like sane human beings come together and reproduce and so forth I do. So I have one chapter in sext extction that is focused on solutions in terms of helping to heal this divide. as you were saying before sex was needed to, a family but nowadays you can choose to be a single parent by electively, essentially. And so the book is very critical of these solutions that don't actually deal with the underlying problems. So in this case, if women are seeking to get married and have a family and they can't find someone with whom they'd like to pair up, society says, well, here's some technology we can allow you to Freeze your eggs use them amount of time that's convenient for you and then B sperm off the internet, which is actually possible. This is part of an investigation I did for sex sinction. and insert it yourself. and know there you go. you have a baby. you don't need a man. So my point in saying this is not to criticize women who decide to go this path, but just to say, I do think it's important to think about U Do things that just make sense from a common sense perspective and listening to biology and not necessarily getting tied up in what's shiny and convenient for us. And so one definitely solution I would say is Get off of screens as much as you can. Don't be reliant on technology like dating apps and social media to meet people. Really, I hope that we can normalize meeting people in real life again and to have a more positive view about the opposite sex. be very aware of the content you're consuming and to spend more time with people who are happy in relationships and who are not looking to demonize other people for what's going wrong in the world. I also say because young men are on the whole struggling a little bit more than young women to focus on both your physical and mental health because those two things are combined And so if you eat unprocessed or non ultra processed foods tryry to be aware of what you're putting into your body onto your skin because in many cases, there are potentially toxins in personal care products or endocrine disruptors in other things that we use on a daily basis or that we eat, food additives, things like that. Um beinging physically active to think what else And for women just to always be smiling, if you're single and you want to find a husband if you see a man who's attractive, smile very widely at him. that will compel him to come and speak to you. And for both sexes to know that what you see on social media in the most extreme cases are not of how most people of the opposite sex are and Really I think even though human relationships are so messy and you don't always get what you want, that's still better than going the route of a machine that's programmed to love you Yeah You mentioned in there that you think people should get off dating apps. I mean, the question I get asked almost more than any other is how do I meet people? And I don't know the answer. I mean, if you're not in a large church, you know, like you're probably in a church with like old people and it so you know' Why shouldn't people use dating netss? Well I was going to say, even if you're at a church with old other people, surely they have sons and daughters or grandkids Um I guess it's about deciding, you what your priorities are, and especially because I hear from very many people who say are conservative, but they're in a blue city and they're just thinking, oh my God, I goodness, I don't know how I'm gonna find somebody, but maybe it's time to look for a change. One thing I will say in my own experience is something about health food stores. People seem a lot friendlily at health food stores So I think there's a similar mentality there. O if there are other hobbies where people tend to congregate in terms of just wanting to live a little bit differently, be counter cultural in terms of your values And not feeling like you need to do what everyone else is doing. because that's one big theme of sextinction. And I going back to your point about pornography. L I really respect anyone who's willing to call that porn because it is so ubiquitous in society. And when you say to someone, have you thought about stopping porn? Have you thought about maybe that will improve your life? They think you're crazy. They really do. you know, And I understand why they do But what I previously wrote for a very well known men's magazine that features nude women. So my views on porn have completely changed since then. And it was something I too, previously thought, like what's the big deal? It' just entertainment for adults. It's benign. It doesn't affect everyone negatively. But when I sat down to reite this book and I started really thinking about the conversations I've had with people over the years and looking at research and saying W there's something going on here and this is something that needs addressing. Yeah, I know. you know, I felt I had the same transition. I mean, I because I grew up in a world where getting born was hard harder than getting a girlfriend. It was harder to get your hands on board. I didn't understand that when it was instantaneous, when it was pouring out of every device you he, it's a toxin. It's such a powerful toxin. And the addiction to it, you know, I get people who write to me and say I'm struggling with a porn addiction. and I say, No, you're not. You just have to stop washing porn. that will solve your problem, you know. But I do understand that it's so prevalent. it's like ood I mean, it's just right there anytime you want it. And it really, really is damaging. You know, reallyally interesting conversation, Deborah. The book again is Sex tinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy by Dr. Deborah So SO H. You know, I hope you come back again and talk about this more because I feel like when you're talking about It's so interesting that when you talk about the problem, you're talking about societal things that go across society. When you talk about solutions, you're talking about personal solutions. L each person has to solve the problem for himself, though the entire society is obviously out of its mind. and I think that that's I think probably most things are like that and it's just This one is so deadly and so dangerous for the entire for an entire race of humans that I think it's It'd be nice if we could come up with some general general plan, but I don't know if there is one I totally agree with you. So I'd love that. I'd come back anytime All right, good. I hope to you again, thank you so much for coming on. It's been great talking to you Really interesting. Thank you, Andrew. Well, that I find that fascinating. I find it disturbing It's nice to talk to somebody who actually has the facts and is not just imposing their own ideology on this situation. Again, the book is seexxtinction, The decline of sex and the future of intimacy, Dr. Deborah So S O H And she has another book called The End of Gender. but this I think is tru a truly enormous problem and just a deprivation that I think young people are going through and should get out of it one at a time if possible altogether if they can. Come to the Andrew Claan Sow on Friday I will be there, and I will look forward to seeing you as well