The Process of Directing Oneself

I'maav. and this is the The big Picture Conversation show about the best movies of the year so far. Today on the show, we are joined by eight Ringer friends who share their favorite movies of twenty twenty six unless Rob Mahoney has stolen their pick in which case they'll roll with their number two choices. Later in this episode, I'll join by Joh Ely, who is the writer director of Maddie Secret. O of the films picked for this episode, John is a hilarious comedian, actor and writer, and it turns out Damn good director too, his featred debut manages to blend Douglas, Cirk, David Wayne and lifetime movies into an elegant heartbreaking quasi camp Stew. John is a great guest, super smart guy. Most definitely stick around for this conversation. but first Let's go to our favorite movies of the year so far and first up Who else CR Chrisy CR is here. Dianne What's up man How much? o? Are we doing the best movies of twenty twenty six so far now to get it in under the Odyssey wire because you feel like that's where the movie ear turns. No he has a very complex scheduling regimen You know, he consults the holy tablets, you know, and the positions of the planets, the on. And then he puts it together before we do the movie auction. It just happens that they scheduled The Odyssey for the beginning of I guess it wouldn't be Q two. What are we calling at Q three? Q three? Sure, but what if it's just the haves. What is that in business Parlance They the second half of the year. Okay. need they need a catchier jargon. So this is our hydration break in a way It is and we do do this every year at roughly the july first mark. and It's interesting because July S seems like it's going to be pretty action packed The movies have been popping, as you know, CR. Yeah. So but chose you chose a film that came early. Very early. Yeah.' you pick? twentyenty eight years later, the Bone Temple, Nia Dakostas follow up to Danny Boyle's reimagining or reboot of the twenty eight days later franchise And I wanted to bounce a little theory off of you that I've been working on. was twenty eight years later. It's a little kernel of an idea of where we are now with like obsession in backrooms of that like wild breathtaking creativity. I know it wasn't like a massive huge success and it was did well enough to get a second movie out there. But I kind of feel like the way that those movies made me feel of like feeling like This director iss really taking me into their own personal world and that this is an inc idiosyncratic enigmatic way of telling these stories even if there are things that we've seen before. Certainly that's the case for these two movies for the two hundred, twenty years later movies. But I wonder if that like We'll go back and we'll look at that as a little little signal that something new was coming down the line. I have no idea. I can speak to This film' specific qualities if you want, which is Nita Costa had a really, really tough assignment, which was to follow up this franchise's originator return to the franchise. and he did an amazing job number one movie twenty five twenty years later very wisely chose to do something different. It's a much more static film. It's not as kinetic. I mean, there's certainly like really incredible action sequences in it. but it's much more of a twoher really between Raye Feinzes's character and Jack O'Connell's character as like these two poles of how you would deal with such a a tragic apocalypse and, you know what happens to the human soul when it's put in this situation, but it's also about grieving, and it's also about loss, which the first one's about two and You know, I just thought it was just such an electrifying way to start the movie or I thought it would be a good movie to highlight. You didn't really see Like I didn't draw any of the conclusions, the connections that you're doing around horror movies, things mayaybe like a little bit of a longer period of time, but U This will be used I thought it was shockingly great And uh I loved the transition, the stylistic transition from what Boyle is doing to what Niaecosta was doing. Huge look for Doranda Ran Yeah Yeah quality needle drops. obviously, we Very fes forward. On the show. Yes. loveve his workd. Yeah. I think he's definitely an Oscar nom worthy performance.. It would be nice if they kind of learned the lessons of Gladys and, you know, continued that. Yeah. was a little bit of a financial let downown. and so because of that, maybe it will be more of a struggle, but there was news that Boyle is coming back and is making the fourth fil I mean, I think that if you're if you're saying like Killian Murphy is going to be in a in another zombie movie, it's really hard to just be like, nowah, we're good. Yeah. you know, Yeah. And Jack O'Connell in this movies Terrifying and funny and hard to watch and And then without spoiling it, an incredible set piece of sorts at the end, veryy different than the causeway and the and the set pieces of of twenty eight years later, but Memorable. Very memorable. Yeah. Yeah it's a great pick. It's interesting to think about four or five of the films being talked about on today's episode being horror movies, you know, the fact that it really has had centrality in the conversation this year and But this is like How do you guys feel about that as, you know keepers of the flamerety happy. I mean, I think that there's probably some people out there that are like, no, it's a genre for freaks and we've always just been denigrated and kept to the back of the video store or whatever, next to the porn. but I think it's you love to be. I think it's a really exciting time to see all these different filmmakers working with some of the conventions of horror I don't really look at it as like elevated or not elevated or prestige or not prestige. I think it's all pretty interesting to me. I completely agree moovies in general, very demratic medum, horror movies, one of the most democratic genres that we have. I do like I mean Nita Dasa comes by it honestly. I mean, she made a Candyman movie like seven years ago. It's not like she's not interested in the genre and what it does. It's interesting to see a movie like Obsession happen Iire. That's a hard genre horror movie with like violent gross stuff, like beheadings and very upsetting spells and curses and things. like it is pure horror. And for that to crosssovers Quite fascinating, but This one is a bit more elegant, even though it has a lot of gnarly stuff in it. Yeah, I really hope that they get to make the third one just because I think it'll Maybe give a little of shine to the second one. I think it if there is a third one with Killian coming out, I think people might be like, Ohh I missed the bone temble becausecause came out in January or I was waiting for it to get to Netflix And I hope that there is a little bit of a revival. I think this movie is definitely do one or it will have one in the years to come. So I'll keep sing its praises. Great picks here. Thanks so much K Joann Robs is here. Hello. Hi So you've chosen a film. I have Was't this an easy choice or a hard choice? It was. I was really excited because usually as the narrative on this pod, Rob Mahoney takes my pick. keeps coming up. This is literally every It is a theme. He was sitting right next to me when the message came in from Jack and I was And then I was like, Ohh, check your phone, Jack send us a message, but I already read job. Did you get the sense that you were taking something from him? I don't Just once. I would like someone to take something from Robahom. We will be drafting later today, so maybe we can. Don't know that this would have been his number one pick, but like he picked right after me. He too your number one pick. Yeah, so yeah stuff I'm interested to talk to you about this movie. We saw this movie together. We did. And what is it? It's Projectaail Mary. Okay This movie be one of the biggest movies of the year. Yeah The first strike in the movies are back narrative we' kind of living through here, right And what usually happens to movies like this, I think, is when they come early They start to get like diminished. Yeah. a little bit like the flaws start to get elevated a little bit. We've had more time with them. I wouldn't say it has happened in a dramatic way to this movie, but it doesn't feel as shiny and new as some of the other movies that are being picked even on this episode. So I want to hear your strong defense for the film, what you love about it? Joinna, what an old stale pick picked from just a few months ago.. Do you feel I mean, do you feel that way that like the shine is off, Project Tail Mary I mean, everyone has very short attention spans, but especially people who track box offffice and what the new shiny thing is your movies, and especially if you have to talk about movies all the time, Iast And I think also maybe a little bit in terms of award sense because we are all Oscar nerds on this podcast. and we all saw Project H Mary and we're like, huh, So is that our big is that our sinners for this year? Is that our big block early in the year blockbuster that turns into Oscar nomination, you know King and we're in The time of the year where get theiners which happ and which happens the syiners as well. So it's just, you know I enjoyed it. I'm not gonna ask you I'm not going to put you to say on like I do just the same. I am. But like sure, attention is elsewhere. Yeah. No, and that's fair. I think I love the movie. I love the book that it's based on, but it still feels like a big win for sort of original Sci fi, even though it's an adaptation, it's not not a franchise movie despite murmurs you might have been hearing about a sequel? I think it's like an incredible standalone. I think it's a movie star story for Ryan Gosling, which is really important. It's a studio story for Amazon and MGM. So in the big pig sense, it is like this interesting business story of the year and then but then they canceled an artificial movie because they have a deal with openp AA. Oh yeah. you know, and they put out Han. like I'm not saying everything's great for Amazon MGM, but this was like a big win that they kind of needed. Hean will be heard from in this episode. Yeah to have you know. not by Sean. Not from me. No, family the. Yeah. What a chaotic choice And I really love the movie. and like, you know, not I'm here to praise Project Hail Mary notot Burry Disclosure Day, but I think that's sort of like A lot of people got that like Spielberg feeling from it. It was Lorda Miller's first film that they directed since twenty fourteen. This was almost a sort of like, maybe you should have let us have solo a Star Wars story moment.. So there's like a lot of narrative around it. and then I just I really loved the movie. I loved seeing it with you and Mallory. I took my nephew and that was like huge moment like I got to take my nephew to the IMX Theater and he just like loved. He's fifteen and he just like loved it and he loves that book. And so the book readers loved it. the people who never heard the story loved it. I love a puppet. so like that's that's an awesome story that's going to keep going and going. so like apparently His name escapes me the puppeteer who alsoest. Thank you sounds like there's going to be a campaign for him and supporting actor, which fascinating. And I would love for there to, you know, we've heard about this for years and years and Andy Circus has been put up many times and it never really cracked through. I do feel like The Academy making a bunch of these changes, getting the stunt category in, like All the stuff that we've kind of been winging about for ten years, they're getting their heads around and the body' so big now, that would be just a great story to get a puppeteer who's doing that kind of voice work because you know, it's only two performances in that movie. That's really it, aside from Ser Yeah's fantastic. Yeah. Yeahah and she's wonderful too. but yeah, that's a great part of it. It's love to hear that about your nephew. And I do think you're it's completely fair to compare it to disisclosure dayay. I mean, Project Hellmary doesn't exist without ET, so that's totally a component of the story. And one side is a very Hopeful, optimistic, excited version of this story and one is a little bit less so. One is really a little bit more of like, I think a beaten down vision of the world wants us to think this is behind the shadow. you're both trying to end on this like hope corore note. And for me personally at least Corps was more successful inside of Project Hail Mary. And I think it's something that will have that late I mean, I actually don't really care if it wins Oscars. I care about the Oscars in general, but like I care about that sporting actor narrative, but like I do think it might have a resurgence because they were so smart about the way that they marketed this from San Diego Comicon last year all the way through the debut. They made a ton of money. I think they really rolled it out very expertly. So I think they know they need to be like quiet for a minute. Y and then come back and feel like a sort of remember how much you loved? I mean Project Hell Mary J know puppet out there, getet Rocky out there, get him perform. Yeah. like I just it it's candy and a great story. That's be fun to say. Gosling in addition to being a performer as a producer of the movie, and so he stands to be a best picture nominee, assuming the film goes all that way. So I think you're right. I think it's going to go quiet until about September, October. They'll probably have a wr release of some kind It is a movie theater movie. That's the thing too, is like you got it's a real like one of the reasons why it works so well is people going back multiple times to check it out on the big screen What else? anything else you want to say about it that really connect with you? you've done multiple podcasts about the film at this point. I have. I've talked a lot about it a lot Do you see it as a movie that you want to show your kids? Is this like a kind of like enjing I toyed with it this time around. I think it maybe a year or two early for Alice. It's somewhat complex at times and it takes a little while to get to Rocky. Yes. So I was thinking about the kind of the first thirty minutes, but the roocky of it all I think my son would respond to. I think I think both would actually The note that I remember us having when we came out of it was just sort of like it was a little if it had just been a little shorter, a little tighter It would have been an all time sort of classic. I still feel that way. Yeah I kind of felt like the more time I saw it, I think two other times in the theater and every subsequent time I saw it, I expected to feel the runtime more and I didn't actually at the end of the day. So but also I saw it with like full excited audiences and that's just a huge part of that whole experience as well. Totally. And that I think has been that's been the trickle down effect of going to the movies for the last for the four months since it first hit, right? Guess what? Movie theaters are great Yeah, seeeeing moves of people is great. And like the last couple of times I've, I mean, certainly last year because my pick last year was bag like I think I've been talking about films that I watched at home alone and it just like feels so different to talk about a bigs just so that we had a big blockbuster movie at the beginning of the year that we've got to we're staring down the barrel of a bunch this summer, and there's even more wainning for us in the fall. And that's just very exciting to me. So I totally agree Joe You're the best. What are you gonna come back and talk on the show about? What what are you targeting this fall? I don't know. what are you gonna have me on for? Now last year you called your shot with Hamnit? Yeah. So that went really well for. Well, you did great. Started crying. Yeah Any anything What in my shock to now? I don't know what are you anticipating Oh gosh, I don't know. I mean, my mind is so stuck in sort of The Odyssey is right around the corner, and Spider Man's right around, you know, in that house of our away. so I have yet to migrate to where to the fall Oscar. Are you? Hype on Spider Man? Wh's your hype? Medium hype I think Sadie Sink is incredible and everything that I've heard from people who've seen it is that she's fantastic and they're hiding her so much in the trailer, but I'm really excited for this as a potential sort of New chapter. of this world that has felt like it's running on fumes for so long. so this is potentially an expansion. How do you feel about the mutants entering the MC? I'm glad you clarified which mutant is she Probably Gray. Sure. and that's who J is and no no No. Oh, and then Sophie Turner? Yes. And F. Okay. Yeah. So different Rd and blue person. Think about the redheads. Yeah. Okay. goodood luck I'm gonna to see it. Yeah, you. And then I'm going go vacation. Where are you in inspiderman in general I get it. I mean I really liked the last one when they pointed at each other and then when Andrew Garfield saves ea, but you were thinking of Emma Stone and I thought that was very beautiful. Listen, it's when it's a team s It's a good character, you know? L it makes sense to me. Am I Do I know anything else? Not really. Oh really. Where are you in Clayface I'm extraordinarily excited. I'm in the midst of attempting to b the first ever Tim Simons's Alex Rosspererry conversation for that episode so that we can talk about score effects and also the pain of being an actor, which is what Clayface is about How are you feeling about it? I'm really excited about it. I'm like bizarrely very excited for it. It is it is actually, it's sort of similar to Andor where we're sort of like You could have been doing this with superhero movies all along. Like we've been waiting so long for you to just be like, scale it down, tellell a different kind of story. Something weird. Yeah, ye ye. Anyway All right, Joonna, thank you for being here. Prestige TV podcast, Howouse of are. Correct. What else is cooking right?ally big picture. Big picture, reatchables. Yeah. See you soon. See soon. By Carls Holes is here. It's been a minute. I'm sorry about that. What are you been up to? What's going on We've been in the trenches the LA. trenches. getting wild out there. We can barely go outside without having a breathing apparatus. Yeah. Yeahah, that's been tough. That's been a struggle out here. You just spent nine minutes extlling the virtues of your skincare Reiment to Amanda and fitness routine which is Germane to the film we're about to That's absolutely. My brother is still in New York and some he does not work out and he helped his like twenty seven year old friend like move from Brooklyn to Harlem. Yeah. And he's like, I can't move my body. I'm like, dog. Listen are I'm thirty three right now. I'm like I can feel if I do not move my body It's just going to do We're training for life. and so when the boundnce The bounce house hit yesterday. and I had to just throw children in like kettle balls one by one I was ready. You were getting ready. I did my work. I. Your daughter came over and said, please. That's not true. I literally did get a turn. Are you doing back stretches? Every day. I stretch. And I am not on a fitness reg right now, actually. For the first time, these last two years I have stopped fully and need to figure something else out because I'm headed towards the back nine. You're not at the back nine yet. You're still hail and hearty. Yeah. You could be performing in the film that you chose at the stage of your life. No But for the for the film I chose This was a late stage pick, but the furious. Y. So why did you choose this movie? So it's funny, before I chose this when I was talking to Jack I was originally going to pick Nirvana the band. And to me, even though one is a comedy and one is a martial arts film Both of them share a quality I That makes me fall in love with movies all over again is like, this is something that only these creators could do. whereere it is like, I think the Furious was budgeted at something like twenty million. And I was reading interviews and the director was like We are not Tom Cruz. like leave jumping out of the helicopter to Tom Cruz. We are not fast and furious. We cannot film cars as great as they do What do we have? and it's martial arts. It is the Judo, it's the Wushu Um And to me, this is just I thought I was going to go and think like, this is such a chad boy experience. And I'm like I'm watching beautiful men at the height of their of their sportsmen like just lives doing ballet. Yes. It kind of reminds me. everybody's saying like the comp is the raid. I'm like This almost reminds me of crouching Tigy almost, where just the choreography is the story. Yeah, the martial artistry is more the thing with this movie. There is a lot of, it is a fusion of those two kinds of films though, you know, because There's no there's no gun fighting in this movie. This is not John Wick. This is not gun. Yeah, it is it is hand to hand, but The choreography in the fight sequenceces is astonishing. I mean, it is really, really but the thing about that is sometimes you can talk about this and I think it can be alienating where if you're not a martial arts movie expert or you don't know the history of that stuff, that sometimes it can be like a little boring or you you maybe thinking of feudal Japan or something, but this is a contemporarily set story and Also, Kind of funny in a way that Nirvana is funny too. I mean, the way that it's choreographed is You're meant to be like jumping out of your seat and like chortling to yourself and plotdting. There is there is a scene and it's been in the trailers where they are in a cage And there's no way in real life a fight would work like this But our main character is quite literally like building a skyscraper of beating guys and he's like stepping one over another instead of having like a gun He's just killing people with like a hammer. like it's just the lizzard part of your brain is like Muckkey beats other Mucky with hamur.. It' like this is crazy. It's physical comedy. Like at which there is there, you know, there's a line from, you know, like three stooges and then musical comedy and then people fighting each other, which is what can you use your body to do that is outrageous and unexpected and like not really true to life, notot true to but but exhilarating. It was exhilarating and even like It should not make sense that there is at the the greatest fight I've seen in decades happens at the end. It's a five way fight. Like so great. You almost stand out of your seat when they split the frame in five. I said the same thing on the show. It's that part is just so awesome. But to get there, you're just like there's this big hulking mass of a guy who basically wakes up and he's not a zombie But it's like she just like runs to the fight and you're like, what is happening? Yes. And then you just have like five guys all have like grudges. Movie has also done this phenomenal thing where it's like, this is not taken where the whole thing is We are going all the way to rescue the daughter. halfway through their movie, they rescue the daughter, they resc the captu kids you're like What's the rest of this movie? they're like? Oh no, they solve the problem. I don't actually give a fuck about these kids anymore. I just want to see people beat each other. Yeah. It's a set piece machine. It's al feel like it does tip into Dot us sur realist. Yeah, like It's not even really important what's happening with what matters is the poetry of violence that is on screen and that character that Charles is describing is like a bullet headed. gigantic man who has is like death and then comes back to life in an alarming fashion and then chemically knows which path to follow to find the fight that is happening and it was police laghing the intent a police station at the end of the movie Yeah, this is a lot of fun. I'm I'm not super familiar with them W was Jim Yiao, the one, the silent star of the film, who's the father of the little. N neither was I. I was I'm gonna butcher their names so I'm not gonna evid, But like the other two stars, onene of them is one of the greatest martial arts artists. He's been in the He was Joe Taslm. Yeah. Yes. When you see him in a movie, you're like, this guy is the devil And to defeat him, these characters are just going to have to. Oh, oh, you're referring to u Uh He was the guy with Yan Nuian. Yeah. whenver you see him in a martial arts movie, you're like Yeah, he there's a there's this movie puts the death of Robin Hut D Sham when it comes to bow and arrow battle I will say that for sure. I was this movie I was enchanted and it's also funny where A lot of times because I was like When I left the movie, I can tell it had an impression on me, where it's like usually I'm like, all right, I'm driving home I'm gonna listen to like a podcast, I'm gonna listen to an album. And I drove home in silence because I just wanted to think I was just like, what did I just watch Like I don't want I kind of want to just bask in this memory of being like Oh, we can still do Cool sheet We can still do stuff where I'm like. I'm still kind scratching my head' like I can watch all these videos of how they did this stuff and still there is there is a magic of cinema of being Hey, some guys can just like dance in the dialogue is them fighting and beating the shit out of each other And what more did you want at the age of thirty three?? Did you see him with the full crowd? So I ye, where I wanted to do a movie theater check in for. So unfortunately, I watched it at one of my least favorite movie theaters Regal Pasio. Okay Tough. Pasio? Pasio, how do you say it? I'm doing Paso. I'm say a lot You know, I don't know. And they have a large Kim Crawford port when you need it. It's That is not my favorite because I will say I also saw What's the u What's the Catholic movie where they're all voting C Cly. I got there with you. So there. That This are beautiful. I saw the reason I could never really go to that movie theater again is I saw conclave When Trump was elected the second time and I went into the movie not knowing what was gonna happen. And I left and I checked my phone and I was like, Oh, the world is like I walked out Sry it was just ure silence. No one was talking. o. Everybody you have a negative association with a negative association and we're not And they have the new they have like the school desk chairs now? Yeah. I don't really under I feel contained. But I I like all my I understand sir. This was a Thursday at four PM. and while it was not packed, I like I was doing a little bit of a like a sociological like study because It was grown men who were like in their forties there All of them had brought their partners. Like there was it was like a date night, but it was also four PM and these men were like T forties and fifties and I was like, this is a This is on a Thursday. On a Thursday. It never for one second crossed my mind to bring Eileen to go see the Furious, notot for a single second. I can't imagine a thing she'd enjoy less.. will say the partners, the women left the movie theater not seeming that enthused and all the men were just like Yeah. Yeah. People standing and cheering in the middle of my movie theater. It was it was amazing. I yelped during the five where they split it in five dollars like I was almost about to just like stand up and just keep standing. Yeah. So sorry that I we had Boy Corner Listen, that's good. It's good when people make the highest version of their art instead of trying to do stuff in the middle that pleases nobody. I was trying to do the drama Rob Mahoney picked it. me too, but you know, Mahoney gets me every time. If thing the drama and the furious I will just say ending on this would be a great double feature. Love it. Like to me, these are both speaking to the same things The fight. the human spirit and then the fight of hammers tralling into foreheads. Charles Holmes. That's beautiful. Well done. Thank you. Oh, yeah, thank you y'all Mallory Reubin is here. Hello, Hey Mal It'sreat to be here with you. When were you last with us Well, I mean, I know the answer unfortunately because I had a Star Wars draft. Yeah. I've known many sleepless nights since. it was the Star Wars draft. And When I fall asleep at night, I see the Skywalker family tree. This is the last thing I see before I doe off and the first thing that ps my brain when I wake up in the morning. Yeah. But in your version, the little tiny things are part of the tree. Right? Droids are on the family tree. No, no What don what the draids are what are the other ones, what was the real hail that you? Yeah, there we go. Yeah. I received a lot of feedback from people on the internet saying that I was right and you were wrong. Can I also say that I received a lot of feedback from people who thought that you were me? And ye that was all of the same pro. Yeah, that's sure. I to all this time for us. ye. Not all women. We brown hair? Be exactly. I was gonna say, we do both have brown hair, but we could not possibly have more different like our interests and tastes are so different Yeah So And yeah, two of the most important gals in the world to me you know. Beautiful. Thank you for saying that, What an honor. Okay. What an honor. I miss you guys. We miss you a lot. Do do you want to lead with your complaints about the procedural aspects of this episode? Go ahead, floor is yours. I have some complaints about the procedural aspects of the draft, which will I think have already aired when this airs, but we'll be recording after so I'll save some of my ammo. No, I'm kidding I can't wait We'll find out. You're always very normal in drafts. I've noticed that about you. thoughtful. You roll with the punches? I'm excited for the draft. I actually do think that I've been better served in general by a more mellow approach to the draft, which is what I will be bringing today. Oh, I'm sure. fully expect to encounter that. What did you pick for, I saw the text. And how did you pick it? Seaan hit up the group jet, you know, And this is an annual tradition I was in Sweden when you hit up the group chat and. Were you actually in Sweden or were you in one of your fourteen layovers That's a good question. I think I was in Sweden when the group chat came and all of the many layovers and the many hours of travel when I was also not responding to texts came later and before. By the time I was able to catch up on the group chat, the exchange The two movies that I would have really loved to pick Project Hll Mary twenty eight years later. had been selected by two of my dearest friendriends and colleagues and now. more anemies Joanne and' Chr Uh, and then I thought Okay, we got a couple weeks. Sean is such a thoughtful planner, always ahead. before we record, Amanda a little feedback feeedback from aand. a surprise. Shaking of the head. shhaking of notot a nodding actually, a shaking of the head. I thought, you know what? Th me planlner should be the title of my memoir. That would be good. Did you consider that for your newsletter? helpel a plan? No, I'm saving that. poking that one for down the road. In my seventies, you know, it's gonna be will you still be Potting and author photo C crafting newsletters when you're seventy. Do you think so Okay. Wow, I'll be on a beach. What about you I'll be on my own is Island. Yeah. ye. Well just I love the spirit of creativity. I love creating. love sharing my thoughts. I like the spirit of creativity and I will be engaging with that by reading other people's books while I sit on a beach. So. Am'. I thought maybe by the time we pod, I will have seen Sheep detectives, a movie that I hear is wonderful and feel sure I'll love, didn't get a chance. Anden I was like, you know what? We're recording this week a couple days after Toy Story five comes out. amazing conflicts last week we couldn't make the screings and when I was out of town. This is just a nightmare. You told me all the way up until the last minute last night. I texted you ten minutes before a Toy story showing this weeke in the city I was in, which was not Los Angeles. and I was like, I might go. I was there for a dear friend's birthday celebration so that would have been irresponsible and I did not I am glad that you picked I have to discloseure experience of friendship rather than the movie quote unquote about friendship. I did actually end up sitting in the hotel room for those exact same hours doing other work for what it's worth. But then later I communed with other people and it was honestly wonderful. It was wonderful. Listen, then you got the lesson of Toy Story five without having to see itet. you can't wait. I have chosen Disclosure. a movie that I thought would be worth including in the podcast and discussing, but And I do think it's interesting to talk about, but I can't say like to quote Chase Serano with my chest is actually my pick for best movie of the year so far, but I do think it is a movie that has given us something that is one of the best things that movie fans can have, which is debate and discussion abbsolute with each other and probably more crucially of all, an excuse to dive back into a creator' canon. So one of the things that I just loved about the run up to Disclosure Day was not that I need the excuse to do this, not that any of us do, but the excuse the opportunity to revisit some of my favorite movies of all time, right? I was like, timee to boot up cllose encounters. Y, which I did. Time to boot up BT, which I did. Time to boot up War of the Worlds, notot a movie I particularly enjoy, but I still did it. I was like, dare I rewatch crystal Skull. And I was like, you did this years ago, Chill Chill. But that's a great. I don't actually think that that ultimately helped my reception of disisclosure Day candidly. It was a wonderful thing to just like engage in the discourse, your favorite thing online discourse, Amanda. we love hear another Pinophiles about where this movie fits and stands, not only in Spielberg's filmography overall, but like specifically the UFO films And the opportunity to really think about how much of that area of interest which has spann decades of his creative life is like the aliens come to us here on Eth. It was just an interesting moment to reflect on his relationship to that type of storytelling. I thought the movie was very propulsive and entertaining, and I also had a lot of notes on it. But it's been really fun to like to listen to you guys talk about it, to pod about it with Joe to see it with my husband and talk about it with him and just to like When I was out of town this weekend with friends, it was a big topic of conversation with people. Yeah. And so that's just been kind of like a neat experience as a movie fan. And so that is my pick because I could not pick those other movies. I appreciate you picking it here. We had such an interesting experience. We saw the movie together. We did the three of us in Joanna and There was an unusual series of scrums of people exchanging notes after the screening that we went to. whichich is pretty rare, I would say at these screenings. You sometimes get like maybe one polite two minute conversation people were like, no, let's do a fifteen minute, twenty minute breakdown of how we really felt about this. The podcasts were happening in real time. They were And you could tell right away This is going to be really divisive this movie because there were some people who walked out I remember looking at one very prominent journalist hiding into the bathroom. he was just like, Nope, crap. And I was like, A I crazy? No. Yeah. So it has been funny that it has gone into the blender. I think as often with these things, like heavily marketed movies from huge famous filmmakers, if they don't land certain parts of the story, people get very, very reactive. And there's been a lot of really negative reaction to the movie That's probably gonna to subside over time. A lot of Spielberg movies also tend to get reclaimed pretty quickly. You mentioned not loving War of the Worlds., whichich is a movie that I really loved at the time, though I do think it also similarly has L script flaws. alsoso a David Kem script. I think A lot of times what happens with Spielberg movies and we talked about this in the twenty first century conversation is personersonal kind of philosophy and perspective plus filmmaking chops tends to outlive the This story annoyed me compomonents of a lot of his movies, especially the second half of his film career movies. Krystal Skull is one of the precious few that I'm like, no Like I just can't get on board with this. Wild film. Yeah, very weird movie. but u funun toywash. Yeah, I don't know I've only seen it one time, though. You've seen it a second time. I've seen it twice as well. Yeah. I mean, it confirmed my experience and in terms of, I think the filmmaking aspects of it are electrifying. and I learned more about the old alien U you know, and and continued to think when I'm talking about that alien. Jim alien? No, it's like it's alien seventeen, right? Jimmy. In Vivo seventeen? Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. Yeahes the name You've really absorbed all of the canon from whereere are you at an alien Hugo? I'm pro alien in general. I enjoyed your discussions with each other about whether your entire creative and professional and personal lives would halt in full if aliens were revealed to us. I believe aliens are out there. It feels impossible that they're not. Okay. I enjoy the genre. You think they're here on Earth? Currently H Good question. And what would you do What would you do if Disclosure Day happened So that was obviously, I know this is a podcast where we're supposed to pick movies that we really liked. Yeah talk about why we like. Yeah ye. you know, the conclusion of the film was like where it really lost me honestly. The idea that like, first of all, I think the local news, broadcast news element, but also the idea of the public response. I understand dis respect Grace. who should I hopely starting that supporting actress campaign. you know, that I'm glad you said that because that was another reason I thought this was a worthy selection for inclusion in this podcast is because so many of the performances were really wonderful. Like the Emily Blunt performance in this movie is amazing Just amazing. I hope it stands the test of time, and I think it is undeniably one of the best and most compelling performances of the year so far. So that's really fun. I liked watching Colin Fth bite down on the mouth guard For me that was compelling Notm sure if you have any thoughts on that Do you prefer Youf with the brown eyes or the blue eyes? I like him, you know, I'll quote Mark Darcy and say just. Just the way. Yeah ye. You know that that was actually do you know that that was a literal reading at my wedding, that speech? I would expect nothing less from you and Zach two of the purest. That was one of my choices. Yeah. Great stuff. I mean, Brgia Jones is a sacred text. It's a sacred text, obviously. twentyw five years this year I film. Is that possibly film? I think it's two thousand one. Yeah, books earlier. Yeah We are fucking old M We're old. I would like to think that aliens that it would be pleasant. like I like ET. I love loved Project Hail Mary. my actual favar movie of The year so far Rocky, the goat U You know, Joe and I talked about this in the pod. It's like we covered, you know, not not so long ago. Three body problem, the Netflix adaptation of a really hallowed That's about fantasy trilogy Boiler it is. And the thesis on which those books exist is a much darker read on the inevitability of a certain type of conflict, if extraterrestrial life not only existed, but if we were capable, if species and races from different areas of the universe were capable of interacting with each other. So part of what I love about the genre in general is the fact that there are so many different ways engaging with what an interaction and encounter like this might look like. I thought that especially because so much of the Disclosure Day run up was really like secretive and guarded that there would be maybe a different degree of like the thesis of this might mean other than the aliens are here, and maybe it's okay and the problem is actually the people, which I think has been present in the text before Um But you know, P of action It's an entertaining two and a half hours in the theater. I saw it with the Gen Pop the second time around The theater was loving every second of it. People were whooping, they stood and clapped at the end. Did you Did you see Felm' I did. Oh yeah, absolutely. att home Not not in the theater, but I watched it at home. Yeah one thing that I have been because I've seen obviously all the discourse about disclosure day as well. Naturally, In fact, it's come directly my direction a few times You know, the movie It was certainly marketed as a movie about aliens and what if aliens came to Earth That's not really what the movie's about. right? Like the movie is very obviously about like what happens to you when you're a little kid and why do you become the way that you are and how it haunts you and then maybe solves you origures or helps you find a clearer path to your life. Yeah, That's a very heady concept That's not a very one, it's not marketable at all too. It's the kind of thing that you say to somebody who hates a movie and they're like fuck off, which I understand. I mean, it's a little bit about aliens though Yeah, It is sort of. And they roll one out on a modified wheelchair at the end. It is certainly about aliens. It's about like our culture's interest in the idea of aliens, you know? We don't spend a lot of time with those aliens in this film. We don't really It's not like ET. ET is about an alien. fifteen minutes of footage of them just being like, and here's another thing about aliens. they upload it and Dick Nixon in the footage, you know, they're looking at stuff. Yeah. Dick Nixon, you're big Non. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that, no, no, I'm not Are you a nixing guy? B big nixing guy No not a fan of his policies or of the way that he ran his administation. seemed like kind of a mean spirited guy. Brave t. a L little hateful at times. Really resentful Um I thought Maybe a bigot Yeah. Se like based on some of the secret recordings. One thing I don't understand, recording Yself I've never understood this. I mean, this is also a note I have for basically every single like spy or CIA plot when they're like, well Here's the file that shows all of this. Why if you're a nefarious government entity, don't keep files. Yeah. J just don't. Yeah, just burn them Thats's what we down. There we go. This is always one of the things like what if they recorded and committed to the record that someone can find, but also what did they name their shadowy organization You know, putting the villainous intention right there in the name. This is another recurring note. V X. What does it stand for Uh I give you a hundred dollars right now. If you can do it. I don't have a hundred dollars on me, but I can Wt is the first word Yeah I just to be clear I'm not gonna to give you a hundred dollars, but do you carry around hundred dollars bills? No. And he doesn't anymore. No. And he's not carrying cash. Let' see how much money I have right now. This is how we're gonna. I do feel like cut for social med. we could introduce like a throwing money down on the table. That would be a good element to that that could be interesting. Let's count it right now. You don't need real money. You could use like imperial credits like a Star Wars. I for a while, until Juliette learned his name I want toing. This is I thought you said you were done with that sixty Okay eighty, one hundred Dash one twenty, one forty, one, sixty, one eighty. Okay There we go.. There we go. seeee What is that for? Are you like tipping the valet with a crisp punch? This is a long Island. I'm a man of that of many interests. Do Do you carry that around because you're like future proofing? You you believe the apse apocalypse will come and you never know when you're gonna get in a jam. Venmo won't work. You'll need a cold hard cash. You never know when you're gonna to get in a jym. What else? How are you going to the ATM Not often. o, because I'm not often in a gym I'm trying to live a jam free life. Okay. But every once in a while, you have not been borered into a Hansel and Gretel fairy tale esque. cottage in the woods as impressionable ten year old and looked into the eyes of a CGI. Dear fox Cardinal raccoon hasn't happened to you wouldn't happen to you And yet I feel such a kinship with those characters who were lord in that way. Part of the reason why I lik this movie. You do often feel kinship with the chosen ones, so yeah Now, any closing thoughts here? This was Dange segment of this video. No, I'm looking forward to catching up on more movies. Let me say that. I feels like there's a lot of good cinema this year that I haven't seen. Do you think that if I had seen Sheep Detectives or Toy Story five I would have picked one of those? I do. Yeah. They're both very much in your zone. Yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing those movies. Let's just almost like pretend I have seen and picked one of those But I enjoyed discussing disisclosure dayay with you. and I look forward to the continuing discourse of this podcast. You know, I mentioned this to you, but one of my favorite experiences recently was looking back in the big pick archives becausecause Johan and I have been doing a Christopher Nolan chadting into the Odyssey. We We're doing Tenet, obviously a movie that you two are engaging with in the present timeline as well. But as I told Seaan, I looked back into the archives and you guys podcasted it about it Five times in the year twenty twenty. Yeah. there was not a lot going on and we were stuck in our houses and or in the car where we watched it in San Diego. It was wonderful. Wonderful to remember those times. How many times do you think you'll podcast about Disclosure dayay before it's all said and done? Well, this is three. somethingomet to think about. So it will be done for a while. Yeah. Okay. We will be podcasting about tenant once more. I know Great city of Toronto in July, and we will be seeing the movie on a big screen for the first time, I believe., with a group of people. Well since since the drive through The drive was was a large It was a big screen, but it wasn't a movie theater experience, I guess is the way to put it. Anyhow, Mallory Rubin, thank you for the best F Lathan is here. What's up? What's up friends? How are you That's fantastic. How are you guys? Very good. Thankk you for being here Al. so I know what you chose An It's a film that Amanda hasn't That's true. It's a film I just That means something to us Especially. what movie you picked Matches of the universe Is this truly deeply madly Your favorite movie of twenty twenty six? No. okay. Okay. How did you h in Rot St to on this podcast talking about Masters of the Universe then. Rob chose the drama. Yeah. Is that you also would have picked the drama? I would have pick the drama. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll say this, and this is no shot to Masters of the Universe. Literally five people have said I wanted to pick the drama. Yeah. That's so funny. Just watching the drama. the Grove with a full audience was nomormal This going sound so stupid to so many people Like when in game came out, Everybody at the theater was oo and on and all of that stuff. The drama had nobody flying around, no capes, no powers, and people were just like that. People were just like that buzzing buuzzing this amazing communal experience A lot of people had a lot of political things to say about the movie and some of the subject matter that it dealt with. I at no point bristled at anything. I fell into the story. It was awesome. It was by far my favorite movie of the year, but if I couldn't have it This next one. is right there It was For me to sit down, not only relive my childhood, but kudos to for to the filmmakers of Mas Universe for attempting Tempting to inject some contemporary storytelling into this thing that I watched when I was a kid They tryed to take care of it. They did not do a perfect job. A lot of people saw the movie didn't like it. I actually really enjoyed it and at the end it gets to the point to where Adam becomes hean, and I was captivated by that We've been talking a lot about toys today you know, just in our in our own lives our kids lives Han toys were important to you? Hean. Well because there's only one hum only one's one human But then the other masters of the universe were also Are they all masters? They don't really exain. I think they're the masters of the universe. I think that H universe This is complicated, you know? This was a toy line. that was refashioned out of the spare parts of a lot of different kinds of stories. Yes. I listen to Chran Newman explainingarian stories, sword and sandal stuff, a lot of high fantasy plus high tech that eventually became animated series that I assume you watched with as much religion and fervor as I did. There's not a lot of lore explication on the animated series. That's the cameame with later iterations of it. Yeah I think when we were looking at it, it was like even when Shera came along, it was like, oh, you know, Skeletor used to be a member of the hordard And like he's not in the horde anymore. He left. She were was knapped and all I'm like, oh, there's moreord. There's more story. There's like a bigger thing. B bigger world. A bigger world. But it's also multiple comic books telling different strands of the story that don't agree with each other Like it's kind of a mess. it's primarily a toy company's idea of a story instead of a creative single person Kirby and Stanley being like This is They did it backwards. This character. They started with the toys. Exactly. But also They did it backwards, but They were also doing it and undoing it. because The toys came with a comic line like he's talking about, like a like a mini comic, right But that mini comic was sometimes a little bit too straightforward and violent. For what word for the cartoon So like sometimes they would be like, okay, well This on the mini comic with the toys, but the cartoon they were using to sell the toys, Well, we can't do that on there. Like Skeletor as F was this like really mean evil guy then midway through the first season, they go, this is better if he's a little bit funny. He's kind of funny. Yeah It's kind of like a Paul Lynd like fabulous, you know Goof. Yeah. And so you're tenen Younger for me, but yeah like four I'm like four five. So you're not aware of any of this. You're just taking you're amazings on the TV. It's like a hazard brain like thatses man looks cool. Right. It's like on TV and it's in Tys or us wr and peiece to my dve. same for me. By whereere do you think I got my t? Okay. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. So it's there And it's there. And then that's it. all the other stuff like I wasn't aware of it. But like the movie like kind of does it does scratch oyood feeling I I felt I mean, I think the movie is very flawed and like kind of a mess at times, but as weirdly takes chances with a property as stupid as hean. Right And makes does a couple of fun things And and when he lifts the sword Yeah s I have the power You removed. It it got me man. I know it goty you, We saw you read it from the screening. Yeah it does. And like obviously there's such a large part of it that has to do with childhood, but honestly, it's also something that's so earnest you can like mess it up Like watching him access this ancient power and his whole thing changed. now that he's the champion. He has powers to go back out and stamp out all of these people that are trying to take over his kingdom, but it's not enough. ' not enough because he led a contemporary life where might doesn't make right. So he's got to do it a different way. They tried to do that in a movie They got there enough for me, but once again, you guys hear from me all the time on here I get if you didn't like it. It's not You' got to stop reading the Reddit page love. Don't fuck that. Just you live in your truth, which is that this meant something to you and I haven't seen it and we're here together sharing our feelings and they don't matter. I'm going a c for the Reddit page. I'm a c for the Reddit page. You guys have the best Reddit page Because at least in on your Reddit page, there is some discussion about If you go to the higher learning rated page, it's like Van is getting fat. No I'm losing weight, but at least on you guys's Reddit page, there's some discussion of the movies. Now no Reddit page is like without its toxicity. I get it. But what I'm saying is I don't want people. I want people to understand wherever even I' on the midnight boys, I want people to know that like I go to these movies to enjoy them and celebrate the stuff. Sometimes the movies are so bad that you can't do that. That's rare for me And also the higher you aim, the further you have to fall So there are some films I go to that are supposed to be really important movies and I'm like Thats that's a high degree of difficulty. Like I just don't get it, right If we kick and shoot and flying You should be able to make that be good. U with this movie He man works Adam doesn't work as well as Eman does. true. Skeletor unfortunately guys Really works. And Jaalt Leto finest performance. Like's unfortunately was that movie he was in with Denzel It was the little thingsed a serial killer who he was unable to capture. It was a very bad film He was nominated for Golden Globe for his performance. Yeah So that's why when the people I still thought he was kind of like a serious actor that every performance had to be like ten No. Wward wororthy. Yeah In this If Skelotour works, the movie will probably work But I get why people didn't fuck with it. The drama is not my favorite movie the year. This is my favorite movie the year. And there's a lot that going on I have been like evangelizing the movie, like retweeting stuff, G see he man. noobody went. but I mean it breicked incredibly hard. Oh, it's a brick. Yeah. it's a brak. Number one The reason why this movie breaked to me is this is old There's a movie that like this is for people in their forties. That's what it is. Right. And it probably should have been made in like twenty fifteen or twenty ten, twenty twelve twenty twelve. Yeah. they were going to early in the superhero, we're dredging up this old IP stuff. Right. So they should when we were in our thirties. we were in our thirties, we could have been excited about twies. Yeah, maybe But like now, these kids don't give a fuck anymore. Stay with us. I watching the movie, I was like, yo, I'm forty fucking. I'm forty three. I'm looking at this shit. I'm like, yo, this shit was this is forty years ago I fell in love with this character. My mom goes to see the movie and my mom calls me. She's like, I know you saw He man. I know you love H man. You see him man They did all the stuff. he did he had the sword, he did the whole thing. Remember that? He man. I loved it But my mom loved it because it reminded her of me watching. Yeah, you know. So that plus the fact that It made me appreciate Barbie a little bit more. Obviously Barbie has a generational kind of hold over culture Barbie is a well made incred It is totally a credit to Barbie. moie how hard it is to do what Greda did with that movie. Y. And like a master filmmaker taking that property and making it this treatise on like who you are, what you are and what it means to be that. Yeah. And that was Hean did not do that. But I said this on our episode, the way that Barbie is very much about feminity and being a woman in contemporary times. This movie is trying to be the same thing for being a man. It's trying to explore masculinity toxic masculinity, sort of like the role of politeses in culture and what is safe and what is not safe to say And like It's a cool idea and it never really works. Right I will say I could There are parts in the movie. like there's one stretch in the film where Skeletor comes into Hean's world It is G. Kind of scary Hilarious and incredibly effective And you could see in places where You can see the scenes in the movie a little bit. You can see a couple of little on could have been. What it could have been if the film would have let itself be that because like that part Legitimately is the thing that made you go, oh my God. I had the same feeling. Like we like we're having fun. like this movie is actually fun and then it ends on a high and you're good. But I had a lot of fun in him man We're doing this now. The fun is still around a corner whichich is interesting So why are we doing it now? first ask? Because this is in the scriptures of the Big Picture, it is written that at the end of June reallyally right around the july fourth holiday The middle of the year, we do the first half. That's mathematical Yeah I see. Yeah. it it's not because we were trying to get something in before the Odyssey or Spiderm Man or anything like that. It's just this is the midway point. We do it at theidway point. We'll do it again at the end of the year U And by the way, not just I should say, not just the drama was taken, like someome other movies that I saw were taken as well. G ahead, speak on it. Obsession I took that. So I don't like movies like that Normally do not. S That was fucking brilliant, man I agree. and that's why I picked it and that's when I'm gonna what I want to talk about is just like how it has broken containment. Yes. Yeah. And like an opened genre to people who are very hardcore, not a part of that genre. So The lady from the movie. re It's from Superman and Lis. She is. She And so I see her and I'm like I watched her. I watch Religiously, Superman and Lois is actually a really underrated Superman story. It's like actually does a lot of cool things. Superman and Lois move back to Smallville and they're raising kids. It's really interesting in the way they go about it. You know, see her in it. She's blowing up. She's amazing in the movie And by the way, I didn't know that the movie had a supernatural Uh pull to it before I saw it. I didn't know that there was actually A whole wishing thing kind of reminds you of, was this Stven the King joint where the guy a thinner Where he where he Also a monkey's pawtail, yeah. Right Yeah. So like these wishes or who's cursed with thinness? Cursed with thinness. And at first it's like, oh my god, I'm losing weight. And then after a while, I'm losing weight But like I thought that movie was phenomenal. Tonally perfect Mves at incredible speed and like for I don't know as much about the director as everyone else, but like Awesome Jordan Peel type like level. when Babling But when I first saw G out, everyone talked about the script and the script was phenomenal. I was like, as a director though Did you see how amazing he could craft tension And obsession does the same thing. I feel very similarly about we'll talk about it when we talk about obsession, but we're going to jump off that point because we're going to talk about obsession. Nice, fan. Thankk you. Thank. Thank you for prepping for Han. Yeah. we got the power and we got a sequel We're not over yet. He Man, Sira, Oro, Eternia, we all coming back bitch. They got every time you order, every time you order something from Amazon Prime, you make it the next He Man movie. We not stopping Thank you man Okay, the Me pod author, Adam Naman is here. The author of a forthcoming new book, Adam, before we hear about your favorite film of twenty twenty six so far Plug the news Yeah, it's a book about cinematic History and relationships of fathers and daughters. The title, which I've read is not going to be great for SEO because it isn't misspelling. It's fine. it's dead. I sayO it was dead, you know, do Tue Theory. I figure a book about Fathers and daughters in films should be titled with a dad joke. Who knows if the book will you end up with that title? Who knows all the movies that will be in it because they will keep making movies for the next year or so. to certainly You know, movies like Aftersun or Trap or Tony Erdman or E one battle after another, you know, Th these are relevant contemporary films on this on this title And I'm really trying to deal satirically and a little critically with that idea of the girl dad, mostly because I hate how easy it is to perform that. and I try as a father of daughters, I hate the as a father of daughters thing because I recognize where it comes from So this will be this will be a fun book starring, you know a long history of movie movie, movie Girl Dead, someome of whom are sociopaths A lot of whom are sociopaths in fact. It's true. Congratulations to you on the news. And I'm excited about the sequel, Boy Mom, Boy we'll be working on. How's that going? I would say there are three movies in the canon. Let's see, we've got Dune. Y. Dune part two Anyone? Psycho Psycho or yeah big This h He has a mom? I mean has a mom. Sure. I don't really remember her. He has two momommies when consider Elizabeth Perkins. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, it's exciting for all of us Okay, Adam. let let's talk about your your favorite film of the year this for. a film we have not yet discussed on the show But we will the guest of this episode will actually be talking about their film as well. So what did you choose? Yes it's a three hour Latvian film shot from the point of view of a pigeon with ra No. you know, it's It's Madd's Maddie's Secret by Joon Erlan which I think is the film It's the film I wanted to talk about the most and not because it was left overver You, I'm low on the pecking orders so the email and they're like, well, these seven films are being discussed already. And that's that's my number one Yeah, it's okay. You know I think I' I'm seventh chair. You know, there's the third chair debate with the great American playwright Tracy Letz, a great playwright And the great American non playwright Chris Ryan. know, I'm just I'm resigned to like seventh seventh chair, but this would have been my first pick which is a John Earlely's Maddie secret. What what is? Why did you choose it? Why Why did this movie move you It's very funn And, you know, noted noted for noted for my own, you know,, you know, sense of humor. No, it's a beautiful film. and it's a movie that's created some interesting discourse recently I say this respectfully around the idea whether it's a parody because parody and satire and past each are often interchangeable, which is, you know, a function of discourse and is a Camp is a hard thing to talk about. you know, canan camp be intentional? Is there such a thing as intentional camp? Does camp kind of have to be hapless or helpless and John is such a smart I mean, I don't know, I'm sure people on the pot are familiar with John Elely's work. He's in that Taylor Swift video, you know, I think that thing heve seen for the most you know, a Stalwart sketch comedian with his comedy life partner, Kate Berand, really good actor. He's on search party And as it turns out, a pretty brilliant filmmaker, this is the only movie I've ever seen Crossbreed Todd Haines and David Wayne. T I think it was for Ringer. I said something last fall at TIiff like wet hot May December, which I think is like the most succinct way of describing what he's doing here But but it's a movie that spiritually resides kind of in like the after school specials or not even after school specials. The like lifetime movies or TV movies of the eighties. There's a veryer particular film, which I still haven't seen Kate Secret, which is a kind of, you know, diary of a blemic housewife or an anorexic housewife film And the real balancing act to this movie, which while it's funny, I find quite serious, Maddie's secret is How do you Cjure up that kind of movie that kind of like social problem movie or that sort of, you know, psychological problem movie talk about how it tends to sensationalize and flatten these issues show that you kind of love that sort of movie and that for John Earlely at least, it's quite formative and sort of just make it makeake it pretty straight ahead while kind of making fun of it at the same time. That's very tricky. and on top of that, John plays the lead part in a drag performance, which he says is inspired by actors like Divine who , acted for John Waters. I think that, you know, Jon Waters is part of this movie's DNA, certainly because John Oli has said it so many times. a movie like Show Girls is part of this movie's DNA. So I'm just automatically inclined to be like, o, this movie Inspired by showow Girls and Pul Verhoven, you know, it's obviously good. But it's one thing to be inspired by those people or put filmmakers like that in their letterboxed for. You know, lots of Verhoeven showing up in people's letterbox four these days But like to understand what they do, is harder. And I think that this movie on top of being funny and silly and having a like who's who of alt comedy people in it. Connor O'Malley is in this movie for like about five minutes and every Fucking syllable is gold. He's so funny. He retains fununniest Man on Earth title through this film. Yeah. Funniest M man on Earth. I believe at one point, he's he's playing the like Not the CEO, but like he's in charge at this food influencer comedy. And I remember at Tiff, the scene where he just looks at and goes, let's make some content. I'm like this is screen grab gold. You know, when let is what I do hiring the screen so ye. Yeah, let's make some content, you know But u The idea of this this would be Sy working in the trenches kind of as a dishwasher at this social media, food influencer company and overnight she kind of becomes Maddie becomes this great chef because she's really talented And he has an ear for dialogue in this movie where they're not jokes every is funny. Like at one point, Maddie says to her husband, like I was just trying to make my husband dinner and now I'm in post production, you know, because her stuff's being uploaded to to Instagram. And you know, I don't know what you guys thought of it. I think you both liked it. that he pulls here of making something that is sincere and in quotes in the same time, starting with his performance and extending to almost every element of the way the movie looks, Music is used, how references are deployed I adore it. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of year left, but this will end up on the year end list for me. I just I think it's wonderful I like the too. I think it's gonna be a little bit of a what's it for your common movie goer because it is such a blend of so many different things that John obviously has a lot of adoration for, but I think it plays pretty well as a pure social media satire. I think that that stuff, which is played very broadly but very funny is effective, but it is really much more of an emotional crisis character piece. you know and maybe in a way that you won't see coming about halfway through the movie. Yes, which is played If not for laughs, but at least in a knowing way, which to Adam's point is both parody but also very emotionally affecting. I thought this was a movie that understands the world of women very well and also understands watching it and knowing that everything is absurd and you would rather not be a part of all of it and you get slurped into it at the exact same time and you can escape. So you know, incredibly well observed. I am also a huge Drely fan, very funny But I loved it. and I do think It is very specific, you know, it has the content jokes and the CEO jokes and the And it is also about eating disorders and there's a wonderful girl interrupted send upp in the middle of it. So, you know, it has references that you might not understand un like like a very specific level but I think it plays pretty smoothly., you know, it's not impenetrable. No, I agree. And I think all those different sources that you're talking about, Adam He treats all of them fairly and with respect. Like he treats Kate Seker, which I have seen starring Meredith Baxter Uh With a lot of respect.s he's actually notar the only thing he's parodying is the culture around some of those things. But the actual films, he's paying as much homage to Douglas Cirk as he is to the lifetime movie and not saying like, this is something stupid you should make fun of, which is a really difficult balancing act, I think. and he pulls it off Well and like, you know, I bow to nobody in my love for David Wayne, for instance, who I think has a similar satirical project sometime in a movie like They Came Togher, where the which is one of the funniest movies I've ever seen, where the link between, you know contempt and affection and knowledge and engagement is very Thin But the difference is and this isn't a knock on David Wayne, like his movies are not what you would call visually beautiful You know, a movie like roole models or Wanderless kind of looks like a glossy mainstream comedy and Wet hot looks cheap because it was Mie's secret is beautif Color coded cinematography, You mentioned Douglas Cirk. I mean, that's not just a throwaway. I mean Doug with Sirc, Todd Hayaines, you know Almotivar, even Verhoven, these are like incredibly technically proficient filmmakers. and the fact that it's that good looking and expressive visually on a basically homemade movie budget or what I understand. And the fact that there was so little oversight on the movie is I imagine how they got away with those Amanda was saying in such a specific tone Like this is not a movie where you get notes you know, like there's no there's no notes on Maddie's seecret. Like you're either in on making this movie, you know, or you're where you're not. And I will say, I mean, Kate Kate Berand, who's you know worked with him a lot and she's another stuff too. I loved her for like about two seconds in the moment this year. I got so excited when Kate Berand showed up in that film. In this movie, I just find the actor her like walking into rooms and sitting down and just like being on screen helplessly fununny Th think like every I think like every time she breathes in this movie, it's funny. And it's not a lead performance, but she's kind of on screen the second most, I think She's deented and great. She's the best friend She also and which leads to the best friendriend dancing sequences, which are just absolutely essential. They're just ub. I also really loved Claudia Odarty, who I hadn't seen in something in a really long time, but she playays sort of the rival influencer, but she was on that Netflix series loveve and was so so funny on that show and playing basically the exact opposite character. She was the warmest, sunniest, funniest person on that show and she is u demonic an interesting representation of a certain kind of person who is rising to power in the media right now Um Well,, Adam, that's a this is a great recommendation, man Yeah Yeah, no. and I'm not the only one that's been very well 's been been very well reviewed and I I'm interested to see how it how it does Thanks for joining us, and thanks for caring for your millions and millions of doaers. We appreciate you, Adam Yeah, they ask. they're like, my older one is like, amm I going to be in the book? And I'm like, do I have permission? sort of, you know, She thinks that this is going to be an excuse, Leah to watch other movies she's not allowed to watch. because Part of what I want to write about is this idea that screen time isn't something that I want to keep separate. Like when you watch movies for living, both know about this, you know, Sean, how much of your life have you sent just, you know, sitting and staring in front of a screen in a basement? I want to pass that on or else, what was the point W, so she's excited now because she's she's excited now. She's like, you know, we're going to get to watch stuff together. And yet, they're not father, daughter films. She asked if this meant we could watch Texas Jans massacre. Oh and How old is said nine and a half But she li cl than she absorbs Getting close, right? isn't what do we think Is eleven? I think Eleven kind of like fuck Eleven is just the fuck it zone. She's going to find a way to see it without your consent by eleven. I mean, that's what I was doing when I was ten, eleven, was just seeing things and not asking my parents if I could In fact, with access to things like Alex and various streaming things, it is only scrupulous honesty that has kept her from doing this already. I live in both fear and hope of the moment where she's like, guess what I watched because that's what I was doing when I was when I was ten with the with the with the with the with the VHS shelf But you know, you know, that that that hasn't happened yet. I can't wait. I haveven' normal thing it's going to be This book is going to make Adam much more lovable. It's really it's going to make him one of the most beloved figures in the film film watching community As long as the like small percentage of the big piss picture listeners who just for some reason seem to hate my guts, you know, don't You know, don't don't like it, then I'll be happy. Welcome to the club. never I sure never make to their home Adam. Don't worry. You should never make never, never make all the people happy all u all the time. You know I love, u I love big picture listeners very much, except for the ones who just seem, you know, hopeless. Yeah.poken like a true erverhoan. Thank you, Adam Naman Thank you guys seeee you later Yasi Soalk is here. Hi. Hi. How are you doing? Oh, Ludol as how. ready to party. How are you guys? Just Dandy. Nixon five. J. I heard about that. Yeah. Did you watch any of it? Nope, o Well we don't to speak about that here. We have to speak go to other things cinem. that was the good luck charm is that I didn't watch it I don't think that's how that works, but I appreciate your care and attention to the New York Knicks I'm very pleased with the film that you've chosen. Thank you. And I'm looking forward to discussing it with you because it was it was Sandered is Tuma Cps by our co host here and artist of first of all I never used the T word ever as you No, I didn't say it. I said that I Whatever. This is Yasi's time and then we can discuss. Yes. Yasi, what film did you choose? Are we able to pull back the curtain on how the sausage is made here? You would be the fourth consecutive guest ever Yeah this is really awesome. we're in a four hour long podcast recording when this question was asked Okay. And I'm not saying that I don't deeply love and respect backrooms because I actually really do, but my first doress was a drama. But that's so fun. Well, it was everybody's first. And Roney fucks everyone over. I a villain. D definitely my first. I don't know what a dichotomy in that person of like the nicest kindest RM. Yeah man who's actually so sinister and devia. It was for the jugular always. Yeahestly a great rep for him. And also I had a secret second choice, but you were so unkind about people who loved the movie on the big picture podcast that I was like now I shouldn't talk about that. Now I'm trying to think Super Mario Galaxy. It's the Sep Detectives, which I love with my whole heart and that's okay. you we were unkind. I think we were not in. I did to hold myself accountable, I did say that people are losing the plot a little about that movie. I think that was the direct quote because it was made into a meme and I'm sorry That's o. I I love sheep and detectives. And feel good movies. I would have chosen it. R. But I want relationship to sheep Um that sounds like like not. Well, right, this is kind of why, you know, I feel like feeling imagining a no effects album cover Re headads, well not. Listen, I love when an animal talks and there's I love when I'm reminded of the beauty of humanity, but I'm also segue, I also love when I'm reminded of the absolute telscape that we live in in modern times, which I feel backrooms did a great job of capturing, even though it's set in the past. You are the first person I know who saw the film. You went to the premiere and you rubbed it in my face. You said, I'm going. Not face. You said, I'm so sad I wasn't invited, but it would haveve nice to see with you because I had a great deal of enthusasm with the movie and you loved it. That night, I think, even you were like, oMG, I love this movie. I feel really lucky. Well, of course, I was invited. Thank you so much A twenty four. But I really love to see films with no chatter like with no nothing guiding my perception before I go in. And I did kind of to be honest, go in being like, this I don't care about this. like I'm going because I was invited and my friend was invited and we're like, we'll make a fun night of it. Did you go to R and D kitchen? We went to What is the Houston's West call?r kitchen? No, no, the other Hillstone. Sure. OrNon doesn't take reservations and I'm not a waiter. Okay either way. I'm not a waiter I do not like to wait. It just put the context around this the Arow theater. Los Angeles is where the premier t Where the angel across the street is R and D kitchen whichich is an outpost of the Hillstone restestaurant group. It The R and D kitchen is mostly focused on sandwiches and and drinks. It's more chic for sure and it's closer to the arrow, but I need to haveable. I need to have a reservation. We walked from from Hillstone. Id like to get my steps in. Good. But anyways, all that to say, been very valuable. I went in with no preconceived notions and to be honest kind of like a maybe I don't And you guys know or maybe the listeners don' I'm not a huge horror movie person Um But I walked up being like, this was ast So what's specifically connected with you about it? I love I felt like it was like a Roschach test. I love when a film is kind of you know, where it presents you with almost like the thinnest of plot and concept And through that, you're able to like have your thoughts provoked Kind of endlessly, my kink is having my thoughts provoked. Do you know what I mean? I do. And like I love psychology. I'm a psychology nerd. Yes Might one say some of the psychological metaphor was lightly heavy handed Sure. But okay, here's the thing. Can Parsons twenty, right? Back rooms, we all know because we've talked about on this show, but comes from a four chan meme I think I'm so interested in how We're increasingly post language in the world and especially with young people, like memes are borderline post language. The way Jen Alpha uses words like niche and aesthetics post language, you know? And I felt this film was in many ways like the first piece of art I've seen that captures that post language kind of landscape Yeah, it's interesting. I mean I think when you are raised in a screen centric environment, what dominates is images. That's the thing that you are consuming and kind of defining yourself through as opposed to experiences or conversation. And so I think that's a Reasonable to make generationally that that's how younger people than us are thinking about how to make art It's just we' hurtling towards that. that's a very positive I think thoughtful but very positive read on it And I think that they're you know, the criticisms that we had for the movie which I would really like to see again. were that every time it tried to be more of a traditional film kindind of got a little bit lost and was I thought making kind of obvious and kind of dull choices. But when it was following that pattern Jasi was talking to Yasi's point, the more it relied on like actual words. And the more it was trying to explain what was happening instead of creating the vibe and the emotions through the visuals, the production design performances like, you know, I thought Tel EdDiaF four and Ra Ryines about were good and were did a lot with, you know, not that much material. And I agree with you that The less you know about something, the better and this did as kind of a standalone experience in enjoyable ways. My problem was when I went back and watched the YouTube stuff and the more lore and the more it becomes weighted down. I didn't do that on purpose. Yeah, the less the less I understood it because I am old and I still use language. but It's like I feel sometimes the way and it's film to film, but I feel the way sometimes about films that I do about music and songs, which is like I don't really care what the filmmaker intention was that it was about. I care what I thought it was about. Like I don't care what Stephen Malcmus wrote Summer Babe about. That's about me and my high school boyfriend. Do you know what I mean? And I thought backrooms really provided that for me and I was able to like kind of have this like journey of the psyche around it. And also it just like it captured a thing for me that I think about a lot in Like I said, post language extremely online world, which is that like Everything is sort of this like existential crisis all the time. and everything does feel like a liminal space. I feel like I'm constantly in a liminal space. I've been trying to break my phone. You guys break your phonees? No up on the bricking. But I know what it is. Its famar Yeah. it's not something I do. Yeah. Yeah you don't need to. You're not mentally ill like myself who needs a physical device. I'm probably pretty mentally ill. ye. putut myself in a straight jacket to not go onto the social media. That's kind of a defining characteristic of anybody who comes on the show is you're kind of mental. kind of mental. But I've been doing it and like after like two or three days I was like, okay, so It's interesting because that's the real world. This world I live in is fake. And that's really how I was feeling. I was like, my day to day lived life is not a real space. It's a liminal space and that's the real world. And I was like, oh know what happened? Like how did I flip like this? But I think a lot of people feel that way. Well, it's funny to frame it this way too as a first time viewer of this kind of story because A lot of what you hear, I've heard this from a lot of friends who are parents of you know, older kids than our kids is that The conversations that are happening after the movie amongst teenagers are based in a lot of way you looked at afterwards, where there's sort of like that lore, which is so exciting and intoxicating when you're a pre teen or a teenager that that contributed it amplified the movie fing experience. But as a bunch of old people, we look at this as this like fresh raw new thing. We're not as entrenched in that lore And we can understand it in the same way that you know, I think the Lynchian comparisons are totally ad, you know, I think it's unreasonable to compare a twenty year old movie to erraser headad, but David Lynch was twenty when he started working on eraser headad, you know, So it's Many people are like, what was that man on about? and then started to like have conjecture about what he was on about? and it probably has little to do with what he was on about. That's why it's awesome. Yes. And I do I think we've criticized it for like the quote unquote moviness of it like doesn't work in a traditional script or arc sense. But I think what you just said identifies that it does actually work in a movie on its own because as a standalone product, a bunch of old people who don't understand backrooms or lore pretty impacted by it and then the young people seem to just be like be really into you know, whatever's hidden in there Yeah and so that it can operate both ways is an achievement ded back I agree with you though I was listening again to you guys's episode about it and I do feel they could have dialed it back a little because what you said about breaking the form is really interesting to me. and I think I don't know because I'm doing conucture, but I think if Ke Parsons had his way, it probably wouldn't have included. There's been so much That's true. Like the parts that were a bit ham fisted, like I think there's there's a scene where Ch how Ejifor's character says like loud what how the backrooms are, his mind or whatever or something. then like but I just like, I'm such a nerd. I'm like, I love that his shadow was a monster. you know? And I know that that's like quite obvious, but maybe it's not if you're twenty, you know, L I've had thirteen years of union therapy. Like for me it was titillating, but I think it's an interesting to put in and I love that twenty year olds love this. That makes me hopeful and happy or fifteen year old. Could not agree more. I think the lack of self consciousness in so much of the filmmaking is part of what makes it really special where it's like its comes from a very raw and primal place that is informed by a lot of other stuff that came before it. Obviously Canaine is consuming a lot of stuff and kind of iterating on that, which is what a lot of great young filmmakers do, where they take their favorite stuff They kind of smash it all together and make their thing. Yeah, I mean, that's just the history of film and also all ar at some point. Yeah. But memes are art. Like I would die on that. I memes are absolutely art. memes are a reflection of a societal ness or happiness, whatever. I ain't reading all that. But no, they're doing making movies too for sure. They're both. They're capturing. And I think I heard you ask this question of maybe Amanda about like what do how do you feel that these are all horror movies? And I was saying to a friend, I was like, I kind of feel like it's a bit of a like red flag moment of our society that horror movies are so popular all living in horror all the time. So of course, capturing it is what's going to be the most reflective of what we're experiencing right now. I know I have a slightly like inverted perspective on that though, which is that I think that so people are so inured to a lot of like bad news in the real world that they almost have to go to have a sensory experience on a big screen and quiet to be confronted with something that makes them uncomfortable as opposed to Scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, o, Iran. about shooting Oh side horror. I'm talking about like the horror of being alive. horror trying to the existential horror of trying to navigate a world in which we're so isolated from each other. We last community. We're okay over here. Okay. Nixon fineine I did see free. A big uprush of community around that we saw freedom peopleeople came together. peopleeople who weren't there is all I'm saying who were not from there What do you mean theandwagon? the LA. Itag. No, I think LA and Nework were in that together. Were there a lot of L.A people jp in the New York banday? That's not very forgivable. I't. I don't think you can jump on. I didn't pay cl too close attention. Okay. You're LA forever I'm from here. Yeah I think you should probably be honest about you are. You also don't watch basketball. I used to watch the Lakers quite heavily like for like six full years. L that was my like meta worldld piece. That's my guy I know a bit about basketball. I just you have to choose at some points what you do with your wild and freshest free time and I have to make six hundred page Google doocs. Okay. We should talk about Metalworld Pace software. I have some stories Any closing thoughts on backrooms? a great choice.ood I really liked it. I think I like I mean, again, like did I think that Sape Detxives was maybe a more perfectly executed film? But that's not really what I'm looking for when I go to the movies. I love that. but what I'm looking for when I go to the movies is to walk out and think about it for and the sound design was this world Like I don't usually notice that kind of stuff, but I walked out being like the sound designer. and then when they hit you with the fucking boards of candate at the end, I was like adopain persons Thanks, Yasi Thank you Okay, Rob Mahoney, the villain of this episode has arrived. I don't know where this came from. Little did you know your name has been uttered many, many a time thus far. Okay because You swooped in And as is your custom Not just from Amanda, but from I would say at least three other people. Yeah, you have been cited every time. There We've gotten a lot of feedback on the process. Okay by which the The movies are selected. Yeah, what are the notes? Everyone is mad at Sean because they didn't get to pick before you I was like the third person to respive That is true. So I don't really see how this is my fault. I don't think it is either. and I think our system is profound. I also would just like to say that on this particular episode, I was letting the guests choose first. You did. veryy gracious. You are welcome. But this would have been my pick as well. Rubber stamp your selection What is it? My pick is the drama. The movie I would say I have by far thought about the most. I had the most conversations about of anything that I've seen this year. It's just one of those moments where for weeks after its release. everyveryone I knew, even if they had seen the movie or not, wanted to have the intellectual exercise about it. Who am I to turn my nose up at something that prevalent, that profound and just honestly that hilarious story. Well let's have the exercise very briefly. What did this movie make you think and feel U, we are broken as a country Ver a very American movie But not made by an American No. I mean, qu per by a man who maybe does not have the fond view of American does have the line, Isn't this an American thing at some point said by its non American star, R Pattinson? It's very fairly gestured. But also just like the question of what are we willing to forgive specifically in our partners or prospective partners. I think everyone's line varies Thinking thought crime is a particularly fertile area for this one. And I have to say, I'm I'm probably more forgiving of thought crime than most, but I have never been in this exact situation before yet Yeah, the movie the scene from one angle is obviously a really Asurd satire. Sing from another angle kindind of it Interesting realistic portrayal of the way that terrible people communicate with one another or don't and the way that like people who feel Like they can't be themselves because of some of the ideas that they've had close down and other people who feel very comfortable with their awfulness. kind of enact it on a daily basis. I don't know that I'm not sure if this movie got me thinking that much. I think it kind of like It landed pretty cleanly for me and I quite like the movie. Yeah. And I do know why There's a robust debate about it, but I'm not sure if I was kind of pulling anything apart of my head. How did you think about it? I felt the same way And I think the movie does the deft thing. and it is because of the choice it makes to make the Zendaa character and have this confession. she she did not go through the school shooting, but she says school shooters. She says, I planned a school shooting, which as an American is, you know, the Third, fourth, eights, like the worst rail. Um, and It's a smart choice because you instinctively as an American viewer, as any a human being, but I can only speak as an American viewer. I'd like tse up and are horrified and don't know what to do and don't know how to react to it. and so then how everyone else reacts to it is plausible and you thus spend the rest of the film Figuring arguing with what everyone else is doing as well as what she's doing and arguing with and through that and through watching the movie kind of getting to a place where maybe you know what know what you would do because again, there is this fantastical quality to it. The other thing I like about this movie is that it is In addition to that thought exercise, it's just a great movie about the total terror and impossibility of commitment and the unknowability of the other person. And it's a wonderful movie about how terrible weddings are just like just the pits incredibly well observed about the wedding industry. But the wedding photographer dialogue alone is just straight out of the most heinous documentary ever made. Just truly horrifying stuff. The choreographer and then who I was a heroine addict? No, that's the DJ the DJ excuse Sure you know, But like never forget those are twinned, right? that these people are set up to do this thing that is being portrayed. in just like an absolutely nightmarished light. and they're also facing their worst fears about the other person and the realization that you kind of can't. Um You can't know and you can't totally know what to do. No. And which is why I think the ending lands as perfectly as it does. Like this to me is a romantic comedy. straight up. I agree with you. And it's like it's kind of beautiful in the end. There is something in the construction they have made for their meat cute and then their reunion at the end of the diner There's something kind of undeniable about Bplay of I don't know forgiveness is the right word, but the grace of Lkens. Let's Let's start over in a way Sure. But you could also read it as two terrible people making peace with their fucked up facees other Yeah it's like, well, We screwed this up, and it's nice that it can be read both ways. I think that's the difference for me between this and, you know, we were just talking about Blue Valentine for unrelated reasons. Blue Valentine's movie were like, I do not want these people to reconcile. They're so clearly sick for each other kind of wanted these two to reconcile. Like I kind of wanted them to find their way back, even if they are messed up, even if they are at odds, even if Everyone around them is so convinced that what they have is broken or flawed or Zendea's character particular is. K kind of just wanted to see it work and that's, I mean, that's a magic act within this movie. Yeah, there's I think the primary tension of the movie is Pattinson's character trying to reconcile what he thinks he's supposed to be feeling versus what he actually feels and trying to make sense of in polite society is this okay? Is it okay for me to be married to someone who has thought about this? versus do I actually just still love this person on their own terms? But what has this doubt that has been cast inside of me pushed me to do which is kind of emotionally lash out. in an unfaithful way. and That's really Brave is not the right word, but it's it's an unfamiliar kind of revelation about human behavior that like I think was fairly common in movies in the seventies, eighties and nineties and that we just do not see that much of. And this does it doesn't feel like a seventies movie at all, but it does feel kind of fearless and making you uncomfortable and making you not really Definitely not love your the hero that Robert Pattinson is playing. I mean, he' he's a real dip shit in the movie. And you know, she's a flawed person who has thought about some terrible things, but the reasons that she's thought about them are not ove exxplained But you can have empathy for them if you step back from your outrage, which is something that a lot of Heimes' character is not able to do, obviously. she's like also one of the great villains the movies this year, like that character that she playses. I think isar somehow transcended even just her normal famous personality. Yeah. Like the memes that propagated from her sideideline at the Nicks game Well sure along these character lines is frankly amazing for someone of her like social footprint Yeah, that's great I don't know, what other thoughts do we have about the drama? I think Brave is kind of the right word for me with a lot of this movie. L the idea that you can turn someomeone making like the school shooter confession tape into like, I need to update my firmware or whatever, gag justust the gall with which it makes you and makes you want to laugh at every time Zendea does finger guns or makes a comment along these lines and rewards kind of the repeat like viewing and visiting of this movie. I don't know what to call that if not braeveike I don't know lot of movies that are operating with that kind of goall. It's, I mean, goall is. that's' a little edge alny too But just enough that I was intrigued by it. and I think the performances and like the set dressing, I mean, literally, I guess, but everything else around it really does it up so that when the script is needling you It's just far enough. Yeah How are we feeling about their apartment? They're flat incredible production design. I mean, really, really good stuff. bears no relationship to the city of Boston that I know of. And also I did do some math on their salaries and how that's connecting to what's going on there. But I mean, listen, you know, just like maybe there's an insinuation that he's of some privilege. Well, sure, you know, he's a museum curator of course but I've never seen backsplash that stylish in a movie ever. I think it's EZege style. it's beaif I don't know what that is, but yeah it sounds good Is a closing note from the drama?', you know, it's I really liked it. What was the song ultimately? Because when you and I podcast about it, you said that the cut you saw had a different song So When I saw the film which was quite early The song that played the end of the movie was Frank Sinatra's They can't takeake that away from me, which is an amazing song, which is one of the. And it's it's an ode person who has a lot of eccentricities and you know, the lyrics of the song like for example Let me see if I can of this. There are many crazy things that will keep me loving you. And with your permission, may I list a few, The way you wear your hat, the way you sip your tea, the memory of all that. No, no, they can't take that away from me. It is a song of acceptance. Yeah that plays beautifully over that final scene. But I don't think that that's the song that played at the end of the movie When it opened in movie theaters, what was the song that played at the end? I'm not even sure what it was. I am Googling it now because it's the same one that she puts on to make him dance, right? Is it Forget aboutout by Sybil Bayer This is what the internet is telling me. I think it's forget aboutout this Sinatra song, which not maybe not stunning that the Sinatra state would not want to be associated with this film in some way entirely posible Cn't maybe be just too expensive or whatever. but I went out of the movie. in this like little puckish state of glee when I heard the song which is such a perfect little end note. And I think forget about Is it more of a moreore sincere, maybe. Yeah, maybe. So again, that can be played you know, ironically at the end. That's true. mean you don't think Sinatra song is sincere enough in terms of what it's gesturing at I just think Sinatra's vocal tone has a really like insinuating elbow in chest quality to it that fits very nicely with this, but All right, well, Rob Mahoney Great stuff. Thanks for having. Thanks for stealing this from Amanda. It's my pleasure, genuinely Okay joining us now, producer Jack Sanders throwing on his ry hat to talk about the best movie of twenty twenty six. My Miss Maousey hat. That's right. So So who is Miss Mousey and what is your choice? I'm choosing Blue Heron, a really beautiful film by Sophie Romvari. You know, usually to pull back the curtain I am left with the last of the scraps, right And I look at my letterbox list, my best of twenty twenty six, and I'm like, okay, my ninth favorite movie is available And this time it just so worked out that I actually got my favorite movie of the year. Wow. That's beautiful I rewatched it last night and I'm really glad that I did because I don't want to underersstand like this is a really special movie like a really genuinely amazing accomplishment. Like honestly, borderline feels like a miracle to me. Um, You know, Romvari First time feature filmmaker obviously has been making shorts before. This is a real step above, I would say. and also She takes like a really, really big risk not to spoil anything. And I think it asks a lot of the audience, but I think the filmmaking and the storytelling is so good. She has built so much goodwill for you to like go on the adventure with her to like, I trust you. I trust this filmmaker. And Yeah, I mean, it's just's a it's an amazing movie. It's a great accomplishment. So I did talk to Sophie on the show and we talked about it a little bit, but you know, it's been opening kind of around the country and around the world sort of slowly over the last couple of months. Can you put a little bit of context around the story and kind of how to understand, because it's a bit of an unusual structure. Sure. I mean, it basically follows this small family in Vancouver Island, I believe. And u, There is a mother and a father and there are four children, but one of these children, his name is Jeremy is from just the mother's side And he is a troublemaker. He is a very troubled person. Um He's a very difficult person. I know one of the reasons I connect to this film, I think you said this with Sophie is like everybody kind of has a Jeremy in their life And the first half of the movie is really just examining their dynamics, how this young boy plays a role into potentially fr fracturing like these parents' marriage, how it affects his other young siblings, the dynamic between the parents and their children, not just between themselves. It's just a really, really thorough examination of How do you navigate a relationship with a person who like poses a question that you just simply don't have an answer to? R? Like a person who is incurable, unknowable. And I think that Romari makes a really smart choice that is effective to me, which is like Jeremy needs to be a mystery to the audience as much as he is to the actual family,. rightight? Like you cannot really get into his head because that's what it's like having a person in your life like this. So I don't know, is that enough context? No, I think so. I mean, obviously the film in the second half takes kind of a structural turn after I think very kind of gently Sometimes obliquely framing the crisis of this family. It's not always so overt. Yes and no. I mean, you know, it is experimental or nontraditional storytelling as well. But to Jack's point, the first half of the film is about a kid who's having a hard time, as we would say, in Montessori Parliland. That's right. And and the film very definitely positions the younger sister as the stand in for the audience and the observer. and so You're focused enough on this younger character and you're supposed to you do understand as you're watching it that you're watching it through her eyes.re you're trying to figure it out and that mystery that Jack talked about it from her eyes that when it pivots to her perspective in an older way. it is It's a change. it's not quote unot trition traditional film structure, but you're completely equipped to understand what's going on and you have been positioned in her and her perspective so deftly that I find it is both unexpected and also ays really naturally from an emotional point of view. I think there was a really clever moment that I remember rewatching the film last night because, you know, like as much as this is movie about like childhood trauma navigating these relationships. It's also just like formally about memory. like how do we remember things? And there's this scene where Sasha is learning to peel potatoes for the first time with her mother And she is basically explaining to her to my estimation How do other people outside of their family perceive Jeremy R? Like how do people think of him, their family and talk about him? And like as a young person, that's a very difficult idea to conceptualize and understand And it's this very long shot that's just on sticks and it's of Sasha's mother. peeling the potatoes and her hands are just covered in potatoes. And the dialogue between them is it's a long conversation of them going back and forth and explaining and it just stays on her hands with the potatoes, which I thought was so clever because it's like that is how you remember things, right? Like you attach certain experiences to other ideas and stories and She probably remembers that moment because of that experience she shared with her mother. So there's plenty of like clever filmmaking tricks that she uses in the film that just like stack on on top of each other that I found really successful. Yeah one of the ones really clicked for me that I cited when I talked to Sophie was the sound design of the movie is so amazing. The idea of just like hearing the box of cereal sliding across the kitchen table in the morning and it creates like a real sense of unease And the whole you know, the Jeremy character creates a sense of unease in this household, but there's also just the kind of common work a day This is the noisiness of a family full of children and they' just managing a family full of children is a lot of work even if you're not dealing with some emotional struggles. And there's another scene that I haven't seen a movie in a few months now, but one that jumped out to me too, is this a long conversation between The mother and father after the mother has had a conversation with one of the therapists and she has been suggesting a certain sort of like clarification or classification for what Jeremy is struggling with. And the mother is just like, this is not it This is they're wrong about my son, which is such a familiar thing. I remember having plenty of experiences like that growing up where my parents were just like trying to reject professional's perspective on their life and their family. and there's something so kind of maddening about that when only you understand something. but that's also shielding yourself from something maybe you even don't understand about your own offspring or your own relatives or something. Very sensitive movie. Great choice. V excited to see what Sophie does next. Anything else want to add about Bluehurn I mean, just on a personal note, it was like I walked out of the theater and genuinely felt inspired. Like remembered why I went to film school. And like to say that you know there are amazing movies that come out too say that this feels more attainable is absolutely silly and foolish. and I don't actually believe that. But that's like the closest way I can articulate it, where I see like first time feature filmmaker collaborating with people they've worked with in the past on shorts. and it's in a genre I really respect and it like feels within touching distance The movie that also reminded me of was after Sun. And I always remember after not to bring up that debate. but I remember seeing it I was like, I'm so curious to see what Charlotte Wells does next, You know, like a super, super personal story. How do they brought it out? What's their next project? We still haven't seen anything. I still would be super curious to see what she does next. but I feel the same exactly with the Rombari wear whatever is next season tickets. I'm very excited and curious to see what she does Great pick. Thanks, Jack guys Okay man it's your turn Yes How are you feeling? You feel like all your picks have been taken away from you I feel good. I jumped in. I did try to let people take first pick and Rob Mahoney did his thing. Obsession was on the table long enough that I was like, no, no, no. I would like to talk about this and to talk about the phenomenon as well as the movie since it just kind of trucking Well over three hundred million dollars which is just amazing and fantastic. And we talked with Van about how this is not a movie that I normally see. This is a horror movie. And you even at some point were saying this is like a very gnarly traditional horror movie, which I historically am not into Um And usually don't go see. but because this was such a phenomenon, I went and so and London And I thought that it worked in ways that had nothing to do with it being like a very gnarly horror movie, even though it was I guess, though For me personally as someone who thinks I'm afraid and I don't like gross outs and I don't like creepy things and I don't want to do whatever like that horror thing is. It was a good education in Oh I'm wrong and like maybe I cant handle it. and maybe that's not what's turning me off genre or maybe that that's not you know, that I just kind of have like a misunderstanding of what's waiting for me. and then has sort of been an education over the last few years, especially I know that elevated horror is like a bad word or bad phrase in the community, but the Jordan Pels and the Aryass of the world and it becoming a little more arthouse and a little less slasher, I guess is Um has made me realize that the genre can be broader and that there is more to it than just like really awesome kills Um And I do feel like the conversation among like the true horror heads is often at some point just about like the technical aspects of the kills. which is its own art form, but there's a brand of that conversation for sure. Right. And so I think and I think that those of us who are outside the genre, often think that that's just really all that it is and that all that can be taken seriously And so For me, it's been learning, o, that there can you know, there can be more to it and that there can be as there is art in creating the tension and the sense of unease and the psychological thriller aspect of it And that also that there are ways to do jump scares and grow stuff that donon't interest me in ways that compel me. and I honestly like the thing about obsession that was so revelatory is that I thought it was very funny. And every time it got me one of the horror tropes got me started laughing as a reaction, and not because it was like nervous laughter. I just thought it was very clever and funny. And I was like, oh, you did it. and you engineered this whole sort of thing. This is exactly what I do in many horrorvies. like. But you do understand when you like when everyone's like talking about like saw seven and blah, blah blah and the And Even the slaser movies, even like the movies that scream parodies communicate. just something different in terms of what, you know, what the goals are or what a quote unquote horror fan is going into a movie to see. That's why again, sccream is sort of like you know, and intermediating it and explaining it to people who don't get it and adding comedy. I guess part of it is just that I also really like comedy in horror movies. Yeah, think I think a little bit of what you're responding to I could be wrong about this, but my impression of it is because of how old we are, the eighties and the nineties are really the domain of Friday the thirteenth. Yeah I'er in Elm Street, know brand of teen Sleepwight camp slash or movie to find the genre for about ten to fifteen years. And so if you're a young person coming of age And you're looking at Friday the thirteenth, a new beginning and you're like, I don't want to see that. That's just a guy in a hockey mask stabbing new bile nineteen year old girls and I could see why that would be unappealing as a young person when you're getting involved in the genre. The genre is very wide. and encompasses a lot of different styles, most of which are not very popular to the mainstream you know, m movie going audience on a regular basis This kind of Tension filled nightmarish romantic movie Yes, like it's like fatal attraction as well. you know, which is a different kind of horror film and doesn't feature a one wish Willow and you know, a more supernatural element, but it has that same fear of When we obosite sex and, you know, the relationships and sex and all these things. When we did the eighty seven draft, I tried to do fatal attraction in horror. and I made the case that the scene with the roller coaster and and the baby is like venturing into it's certainly like lifetime horror Um But I understand that it's more thriller I don't know, though. The jump scare and obsession when sppoiler alert for obsession The The friend is in the car and they're about to, you know, confess their They're loved to each other and then the Indianavaretti character shows up And so I was genuinely startled And then the smashing the head so many times into the steering wheel that it's not gross anymore. It's just extra It's it's a s really good shout because I think that sequence for people who don't watch a lot of horr movies is incredibly effect. If you've seen a of horror movies, the minute they got in the car, I was like, she's dead.ike I just knew because I've just seen a million movies like that.. like there's a grammar to those movies. And't I say that not to criticize that at all. I think that's one of the great things. But you weren't startled when she showed. I mean,' something that just shot and the way that the sound is edited It gets you to jump there was never a moment where I thought Sam was going to make it through that scene. Right, R, right. But also The extension of the of the death. Yeah is intentional and, you know s something about like the attitude of the movie and the way that it's crafted that I thought was funny. and I agree with you. It was like a I felt a little more in on the joke with this movie than I do with. many horror movies. I found more like included, I guess. Yeah, I think Cry Barker's training making TikToks and YouTube videos and trying to pursue engagement on social media. I talk him a lot about what are primal instincts are as viewers and what are the things that we respond to. and he's just got a real knack for it. I'm really glad you picked it. I'm really glad you went out and saw it. I didn't like assign it to you. You and checked it out on your own because you wanted to know what it was all about. but I'm not surprised that you liked it. It has some We've compared it like its's financial success to stuff like the Sixth cense, but it does have that like A new person has arrived Tally They're a really strong voice. They have a real handle on how to get audiences excited. And you know, Indian Aready is just giving this b Titanic performance, this like career announcing performance in the movie that I suspect we'll be talking about for the rest of the year. So Great pick. I love it. L loveve the movies. If you hadn't picked this, I probably would have found a way to pick it as well Nirvana, the Band of the show, the movie P pretty much been my movie of the year all year. Yeah And is a movie that I've seen in theatater three times And wow. I saw it last year at a fan event And I was strongly encouraged to check it out. As a fan of I was a fan of the web series, but I wouldn't say I was a super fan I'd seen it, but I was not encyclopedic with it. I'm a super fan of Matt Johnson'. I think he's just one of the most interesting, creative dynamic, weird people working in the movies today and Everything that he does has has just turned the dial one degree past where you normally expect this movie, which is ostensibly about two guys and aspiring band trying to get booked at a show at the Rrivere, which is a modestly I just remembered jokes from a it and started laughing. very great, many good jokes. We just had the opportunity to recend it's Van Lehan. I can'tait toar what he thinks about it. It's an absurdist comedy that is filmed in a very grounded way. It borrows liberally from Back to the future It is a boovy of Reret in a movie of teamwork, a movie of pop stardom, a movie of Extraordinary memes. Also very much a movie about looking back at yourself and who you used to be. and who you are now And I found some of that stuff quite poignant, especially the second and third time I watched it two thousand eight versions of Jay and Matt and interacting with their former selves is all the wonderful. If you haven't seen this movie you got to check it out. I think it's streaming now. but I think it is Like a lot of the best picks on this episode simultaneously very silly and very very deep. You know, like The Furious Disclosure Day, Masters of the Universe, Backrooms, the drama Obsession. You know, these are pretty goofy movies Yes. in a lot of their scripting and their premises But they're really making sincere efforts to communicate somethingomet at the bottom of people's guts about how they feel about the world or how they feel the world is treating them. evenven though Nirvana Probably the silliest of them all. Um I guess No, maybe not siller, the masters of the universe. Yeah, maybe not sillier. and also You know Nirvana is very, very specific and its's jokes as is Maddie's seecret in its own way. Sos true. Yeah also very silly. Right. but with real depths Yeah. so It's been it's been a it's been a good year I feel like I mean these are all interesting movies. None of them actively bad, except for maybe Masters of the Universe I'll haveal to defend it. I won't full wholly defended. But like and they're from all different places, right? Yeah. someome big studio movies, some big IP movies, some from hallowed filmmakers, some from first time filmmakers, some very independent minded, some out of nowhere successes Yeah It to say I' feeling great about the the year and movie so far It's wonderful. I spent this weekend just fielding text messages from from friends and civilians with random opinions on some of the movies on this list, some movies not on this list, some, you know What's the most brutal cut that we've had here Well, I realized about halfway through that Devil Wars P of two is not on this list, but I think that's correct. I had a nice time How's it going a cooach And, you know, your beloved Toy Story five, not here No, you know Let's do a little check in on where I think I'm at with my top five right now. Okay Right now Blue hereron and Nirvana at the top of the pile. And then I've got twenty eight years later the bone temple. Mw number three The Christian Petets old film. is a number four and Sam Ram' Snd help which I think is maybe the biggest omission from this episode for me That's good one. A movie I love Toy Story five would be up there. These are just movies that Closure D have been released. Nighty secret. Y. These are So not movies we saw it can Yeah, this is only just yes, that's how I usually how I do it. I like Mother Mary quite bit. I like Project Tell Mary quite a bit. Tuner was a film I love from this year Um But yeah, stuff like Fred and Josephine from Sundance. Sure. whichich that'll be an interesting episode for us out of that discussion. Not sure if you're going to enjoy that one. Paper Tiger, you know club kid All of a sudden, cllub kid A lot once upon time in Harlem, lot, a lot of good stuff coming for the second. and we haven't even seen the Odysse We haven't seen true. Spider Man. We haven't seen the live action Moana and you really I gota see space for that non live action Moana I have not seen it, but I will with my son before before Melana. I'm gonna do it I was not of the age where I needed to see Mojuana. But can I tell you what I told you? but I'll tell everyone else this weekend we did Pono and Totoro with with both kids and Sy, the baby now says cat busus whenever you say toorial which the comic scenes in movie has He just loves the cat bus and Knox was rapped. and I was also rapped, loved it. So I'm like we're getting there. J very happy to hear. You can, you know, Moana, will have its time in the. Consider the coconut. I've heard Consider it leaves The island gives us what we need. That's beautiful. No one leaves. Okay. That's poetry. That's Lnn Manuel Miranda's poetry. That's all waiting for you. You're very lucky to be able to see that film for the first time Okay, let's go to my conversation now with John early very happy to with Johny,i Jh Thanks for haing I didn't know that You were such a cineophile and such an aspirant movie director. I've been a fan of your work as an actor in comedy for a while. Thank you But I had one clue. And so when I saw the movie, it clicked, and I haven't heard you talk about this yet, but ye when Vidots on the East sideide opened a few years ago. Yeah, I hosted a screening of a new Leaf, Elaine May's movie. I was there. And I saw you and Kate there. Yes. And I didn't say anything. I didn't wantanna be weird. But I was like, oh, that's so nice that they're here. And I love that movie and I love Elaine May. I' never seen Okay, you were responsible for my first ving. That's nice. Yeah I thought even of Elaine May, and I want to ask you about all the myriad influences that you had on this film and you've been very eloquent about them in the pressed run for Maddie Secret. but something clicked with me where I was like John's the kind of person Check out a new leaf on a Tuesday at seven PM I mean, the it's the only activity I ever have in mind is just to check, you know, revivalhuballA dot com or a New York screenslight And and just see Ping I don't know. that's what I like to do. Did did you always want to make films? Was that always something that was a goal of yours? Yes, yes. And I just want to be I want to put correct the record. My cenophilia is so narrow. It's so limited and I've put all of those like my favorite movies are all in Maddie's Secret. So like there's nothing left. If I make a new movie, I'm gonna to have to like develop an entirely new personality. Well but it's deep and maybe not wide, but it's very deep. Yes, it is deep, it is deep. And I feel like you've been talking about it how you were literally looking at the movies that connected with you in a very primal way and tried to transfigure that into your own work. L what That's the first movie that you saw that made you Shiver quake J in my life. Yeah. I've talked about this a lot. so I really apologize to anyone who's This is, um And anyone who's heard me talk about this before, but Clock Watchers, the Jill Srecker movie it just did actually have a very profound on me like a real time effect, not like a retro active like Oh, that did change my mind.ike I actually felt a kind of existential shift as I was watching it as like an eleven year old. it has it's a very bleak movie and I felt Um, There was no turning back after like I knew like I learned a little too much about future of my life and of the world. And I was like, oh no. but I was I was just it really rocked me. I don't know. What led to you seeing that movie at eleven? Well, I loved going to blockbuster, you know, the classic routine was like My mom would dropped me off a blog buzer, she shped for groceries And and it was and I would I would always go to the special interest section, obviously, because that's where the game mo. But that's also where the little Sundance recommend section was Kind of a neat little like row of movies that are all inside of your movie, right? sort of like nineties indndies Sundance plus queer cinema on the one the smallest section show. Yeah. And you know, and I would have to pretend like I wasn't looking at that show. I would kind have like do little drive by lances darting and you know, because you couldn't stay for too long or everyone would know, But Cockwatchers was there and I was very drawn to Lisa Kudro and still am. I mean, I was totally bewitched by h as Um as kid and She's on the cover of that movie And it seen and Parker Posey was two. and I you know and I didn't and Alana Ubach, who was in the Brady Bunch movie which is also a huge influence for Mattys.vie. Yeah. suchuch a good movie. And and I didn't know Tony Gillleette shockingly, well, not shockingly for an eleven year old in like nineteen eighty eight, you know, But anyway, but I just rented it expecting some sort of kind of Rome and Michelle kind variation on Rome and Michelle. And And it just, I don't know, I found it, it totally it was so haunting. I don't know. I it and then I I Nova Tony Glutton and the rest is hese tree. Do you remember seeing that movie and movies like that at that time thinking about a movie was made or like what were you beyond the experience of the performers who you really liked and were clicking with at that time. Did you have a brain for Who directed this? How did they do it? What does a camera look like and how does it operate Well, it's funny because it's before the internet was what it is now. wherere like, There wasn't even an option of just like immediately Googling something Yeah. You know. I remember having that same feeling. like whereere do I go to figure out what happened here? Yeah, like get the microfiche out. L I there was kind of nothing to be done. So that the desire to like know about that is something that's kind of sad to me about this moment is that like movies don't even have time to just exist as their own kind of magical object. they're immediately ripped apart before they even they're apart before they come out. I mean, I had to like email the crew. I felt like such a crank, but I was like, when they announced that we got into Toronto International Film Festival, opening night Discovery program The light goes off. by the way, I'm directing here when he turns the light off. He's like I'm not allowed to mug that hard, but anyway, no bits here. Yeah. This is a serious film conversation. Hold it together. But when we went to Tiff, they like people started putting out these pictures and it's so sweet because proud of the movie they worked on there and I immediately felt the thing like, we're just like hemorrhaging the mystery of this, the You know, and to me, this movie particularly has a lot of it has like a We were trying to make a magical kind of quality. It's like To me, Maddie is like a magic trick. She's like an illusion that we all work so hard on. And so I felt sad about seeing me with like a cold brew in the sides and being like You know, like in like I just you mean like on set stuff. that was say. Yeah. But anyway, but I just think things get like unpacked so quickly that your references, you get kind of surveilled before the movies even come out about all your references. and does feel like surveillance. It's very bizarre. it's maybe like a met a tributary, but there is something really interesting about that though, because the film is so almost overloaded with this collision of ideas of stuff that we've seen before. And like some of it is stuff that it will be recognizable to your mainstream audience, some of it is very cineophilia, someome of it is very like If you're between the ages of thirty two and fifty and you got a chance to watch television movies in the nineteen nineties and like I'm curious as somebody who was coming up with the ideas for the film and then actively making it, like do you want it to still have that Um scavenger hunt feeling, even though you do want to maintain the spell. because as soon as you start picking apart the influences, the spell also gets a little broken, I think. Yes, I agree. I The references were really helpful to me, you know, in just building it. They and I am, unfortunately I am a kind of Like many gay men before me, I'm a very devotional person an artist. and so I I could talk about the references forever. That's That's what sucks is that I can't stop. Like and this is the way the media ecosystem of like promoting a film right now. It's just like It's actually secretly perversely a thrill for me to like talk about the reference. I know And it's a thrill for me to hear People like you talk about it. so like invariably what you get is this conversation. It's Well, I love Tat Haines and I also love this lifime movie and I love this. and I think we all really enjoy that. And we feel like maybe we can unlock even more of your artistry. But then the slippery slope is I think Maddie's secret is very singular. Thank you. There's not I've never seen a movie like it. Thank you, even though it's like a lot of other movies Yeah, which is an unusual thing to do. So like At the risk of a vague question, how do you do that then? How do you metastasize all of this stuff that you love and then try to make something unique? Really tell you, I mean, I because it's copyrighted, I'm kidding. We're really excited. No, It's just mysterious. I don't The truth is, I think looking back on what I did, on what just happened over the past two years Um I Actually, this isn't even a rich shirt. This isn't this isn't me this is something I actually knew quite consciously I think that the kind of supermarket sweep style of grabbing at all these references was A way to hide. I mean, I thought I was protecting myself I was writing something before this movie that I found Almost too adult and intimate and like and I didn't feel smart enough. might I might never be smart enough to write it, but I it was like kind of freaking me out. and I was like, I don't know if I'm gonna to do this. And I was like, I just want to do something fun first. Let me do something like outrageous and fun and like cheap and in my mind at that time kind of experimental. In other words, I was like, let me make something that was like no one's ever gonna see. So like I can make me make something so Like with my friends so low budget that like it probably will just never have a life. and I felt kind of protected by that. I wanted to make something kind of in private And um And I started just really making it brazenly Like very pastiche it just was like, it was like, it's referenc in this and this and then there's dancecing, you know like And this friend's in it this really, you know, and u And I think I thought that I very naively thought that if if I constructed this crazy patchwork quilt, this like Frankenstein of references that could somehow avoid you know, doing the more like the kind of personal project that I was working on. And then it ended up actually being hugely personal. Like it it just felt suddenly as I was writing it, I was like, This is so interesting. This is like I'm tapping in' like I'm like completely just doing this like movie by numbers. I'm like following the rules of this genre I'm you know, this shouldn't be personal and yet it's just such a funny thing about being an artist.' like and about being a human being is you just reveal. You cannot help but reveal especially when you try not to. Yeah, you end up leaking out And I really was trying to just make something fun. and then I was like, uh oh Well so my experience watching it was forty five minutes in I was like, o, I got it. L I get the idea, I get the fusion, I'm seeing the references, at least some of the references. And then by the end of it, I was like, I feel it. Yeah I feel that this was and this is a very sincere movie. Yeah. and not at all You know, I know you've talked about David Wayne and there's certainly like some of his progenitors in sort of like Guess satire or parody or something like that. Yeah. But I feel like the movie never really commits to that. I think you can feel the inspiration, but it's a pretty deep movie about a person in crisis. Yeah winking at you at all and I'm curious like was wasas it you have to like write through to get to that place where you're deciding that that is the kind of movie that you're making. And also, how much are you communicating that about like raising money because it's probably hard to get a movie that is this of influences financed and trying to make sure that like convincing people like I'm going to make sure that this is all balanced and it's all going to play I think I had to convince people of its kind of sincerity in because I think because of the subject matter, people, the financiers, I think would have been terrified had I been like, No, we're We're just having a ball. or, you know It's a free f all. like I I I knew that there needed to be this like spine of commitment and um But that was just what I wanted artistically, but I knew I had to kind of really reassure people that that was the case And it was like shockingly, I mean, because again, we were working at a very low budget levels. so but it's it was still given the subject matter and given the kind of central conceit of me playing Maddie. Um, It was amazing how quickly people jumped on board. And I think that's because I really For all of its u Uh Oddness, strangeness, I did try to write something traditionally entertaining. Like that that was a goal of mine. I wanted to make something that was like that pulled you through, It was propulsive, it was like like a dream or like a fairy tale, you know, And so it was And I and I really, really wanted to make something very blunt and direct and something that was like The emotions and the filmmaking were very blunt and direct and clear and not viibbey or cool You know was that important to you Well, I think a lot of I have a lot of rage about this, I guess, but I think a lot of across the board, music, film, TV. Th those are the only three forms of art, as you know. Yes. the only onees to be acknowledged on the show Um they are you know, I feel like there's just been a O look, you see it most clearly in songs Songs very rarely these days actually follow a kind of Chorus. I mean, I mean, verse, pre chorus, chorus, like Bridge chorus. You know, like there's like a I always say like the schmeir. like you can see it in films that have like digital effects. Y. And it's sort of like there's like a haze around a certain kind of pop music. Yeah. I know what you mean. Yes. There's an ambient quality to so much of Yeah. and u And then when you hear like An Aba song you werere like, o right. R. And I don't know. I I forgot what the question. You were trying to do something direct, which I appreciate.. Yes. And I also think there's like such pressure in the culture for a while now because of social media Um, and like or like hot takes. there's just been there's been there's such a pressure to be smart and to to know exactly what you're doing and for every and and then also with all this like reference letter boox criteriaion and like shit, it's like it's like there's such pressure for everything to be so researched and studied and for you to have a perfectly You you know to articulate your vision purposely and like I just really was like, I think there's possibly something very it was exciting to me to not be concerned about those things. And also These are all this is like a high minded way of talking about it. to me, it was like the character. L Maddie is very sincere. She's a dork, you know in some ways. She's not a cool girl.. She's a triart. She sees herself as does Emily as a trihart Susie homemaker. An example of my incredibly nuanced writing Um, But like You know, I don't know. I just I'm so I think we live in a very blunted moment. you know, everyone there's like a kind of way that people talk here and at least favorite thing. Yeah. and u And I don't know, everyveryone seems so fucking depressed and that I just I wanted to make something that was like kind of cutting through the ambience and Um, Yeah. I talked to u, Olivia Wild yesterday, made her a new movie and I was asking her about directing herself and how unusual that must be It's very odd Can you talk about your experience, especially given the performance that you were giving? Yeah. o, it was very odd. I mean, I've done it a lot in a way. You know, I've made my own for a very long time. And so I'm quite accustomed to just kind of like Is this so annoying? this bracelet? No, looks great Your fans aren't mad. I mean, they're always mad o. Not at you though, so don't worry. I'm very accustomed to like kind of getting what I need for myself, you know, and like and giv me a lot of options, I'm very accustomed like editing myself and I don't get to, you know and how horrible it look you know what I because the movie is kind of about this. This is why I ask that this like transition that Matdie is making to of forward facing role in our wonderful content society of which you are currently participating. And so I was wondering if may be like some of your life as somebody who makes stuff and is maybe directing yourself in a very overt way and has to look at yourself all the times and then having a character who is deciding to do that choice. And like ye on the one hand seems very madeade for it Yeah, right? likeike go for it. And on the other hand, it creates like a sort of crisis Yeah in her And sends her down a very dark path in your life. Yeah I mean, I Did I get that right? No you totally reveal yourself entirely, right? No there I have a very similar reluctance. you know, I have like, u I feel like very un hip in in many ways, you know, and I I maybe value or, you know, or maybe I'm maybe desperately trying to hold on to something that you can't even grip ono anymore as like a kind of privacy, integrity, you know I don't know. I really relate to Maddie is very much an extension of me in that way And I mean, I don't know, I think I'm stronger than I mean I think Maddie is stronger than me, period. But maybe in this way, this particular way, I'm quite used. I'm very accustomed to just like putting myself on camera and watching myself and not getting to byy the way I look and, you know, I certainly don't often don't love the way I look on camera, but also I'm a funny person. like I'm always like, let's get uglier. comeome. Like let's, you know, different standards. Yes. Yeah. So u Yeah, I don't remember Would you like level set with people on set where you just say like Am I doing this right You know, do you need like some kind of thats tal you, you know? ' when you're the director, you're the answer of all the questions, right? Well, I had some very important people on set with me. I had the cinematographer, Max Lackner, who is was such a huge part of all this, obviously. But you know, he really, really understood everything quite deeply. He's also a literally training to be a psychoanalyst. So there was always a kind of Um I don't know. there it was u I felt there he brought an extra layer of kind of like passion and psychological nuance to all of our discussions and And he really was, I think, a protector of the. he just totally understood the kind of like bounciness of the movie, you know, the kind of buoyancy of like the tone and And So he was he did a great job of like making sure that I was keeping it like M U And then my my boyfriend, Gordon Landberger, who we had been not in relationship for years at this point, but he's the production designer And me and Max and Gordon were all friends and we we, you know to very informally on this movie without, you getting paid before pre production started. We We' living together for a couple weeks even before pre production. And you know, so like there were those and Gordon and I know each other very intimately. and he knows certainly understands certain kind of performance insecurities I have. And so he was actually he was incredible kind of emotional support. which is which is absolutely something that a director has to do whether they, you know, tyrnically avoid doing it or not. but like anyway So It was, but all in all, it was incredibly lonely It was psychological torture I couldn't believe I was doing it to myself. I was shocked. and when I was editing the movie and I was watching footage of myself I mean, I had a day in editing where I was like, I had to leave and go home and I like burst into tears so I was like I was watching myself direct myself in a very important dramatic scene where I like basically crumble to the floor and weep. and I was watching myself do like six or seven takes in a row'm like crying on the floor and then going like . and then standing up and then being like Waiting for someone to go And it was like and you could see me realize in real time that like that's me. That's my job. No one's coming for you. No one's coming. Yeah. No one's going to come rub my back or like And everyone was so sweet. No one was being cold. They just didn't know what I needed. You know, that's a very intimate thing between a director and an actor And I felt very exposed and I felt like I was doing this toottally crazy thing.. I felt kind of insane that I'm like this girl in this treatment center and it's like getting this heavy. and you know and I just like, I don't know, but I but watching myself watching that O person dynamic in the editing room was like very confronting for me. and it also made me feel very close to Matdie And I was like, because you know, Maddie is so self made. She was like not to give anything away, but like, you know, she did not have a great childhood and she's like kind of built herself up. She was such Strength you know, and And I I don't know. I just really was like it was like very profound. was It was like a moment deep into post where I was like Oh, this movie is like Again, it's like in some ways started from this like really kind of goofy These goofy instincts and then became Totally, totally shockingly personal And the process had this meta quality of absorbing movie and real and and the movie was absorbing real life and it was just it was, I don't know I want to ask you a little bit about that and sort of like The specific tone that you're trying to strike and meet that feeling. So there's an amazing sequence l in the film where Christin Johnson who plays your mother comes in for a kind of like a psychotherapy conversation. And that scene I feel like kind of brings all of the things together simultaneously. It is like John Waters and Tennessee Williams and lifetime, right? Like all at the same moment. Yeah. Pcious. Asolutely Tenessee Williams. All about you already said suddenly last sumer, Marie. Right. Yeah. Marnie, right Here I go. Here I go with my ref. No, no, but it's it's so interesting. I love that scene Um, is a scene that I think a lot of people myself included kind of struggle to describe where like it's not camp, but it's not hyper sincere and it is funny, but it is emotionally powerful. And there is this like Nether zone Yeah of tone. Yeah, totally. And I don't really, I've maybe never known how to talk about it. Yeah And maybe and you conjured it, right? You made a movie that has it. Yeah. So how do you how did you do that That's another thing where that scene it's kind of Profundity word. It is, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah Yeah. you're not describing We're get as profound. no. Oh no. You can do it if you want. If you want me to say the word, I can say the word. No, this is just the cool thing about making anything is like Again, like the the just power of the unconscious mind, it's really crazy. L But I was, you know, because again I was just going for this kind of like hysterical in the Freudian sense Somet last summer a big final like explosion of the trauma that, you know, and I that's a trope that I actually like Typically like I hate it. I find it totally cheap and like U and it's a part in movies TV movies plays where I just get a little bored where I go, write, the puzzle piece. this is what explains the previous behavior. you know. And and and that The kind of bluntness of that, I think is what I find inherently funny about it too. I don't know. It's also kind of interesting to me that we clearly have been a for many, many years now and a moment where There's actually a much more like kind of cool version of that, you know what I mean? Like But it's but it's passing itself off as like smarter and more ofol Therapized Tuma Corps, Yeahah. Beautiful. And And there was something kind of naughty and really fun to me about like exposing what that contemporary thing is, it's like it's like, you're not doing anything new, honey. Like Tessee William was doing this years ago. And guess what he was doing? It was so much more flare. And guess what a fucking sense of humor. He There's no way Tennessee Williams doesn't think suddenly last sumer is funny. There's no W There's no way. it's It's so absurd The big prelation. anyyway. So so I found myself making this thing with like which where the climax was this like trope that I like actively don't like to watch.ust another thing where're like, what are you doing, John? Turn the car around. But you know, I don't know. Then I just kind of gave over to it and I found it all incredibly moving and like and I found making the connections between Maddie's behavior and her past, like very deep and And straightforward, it's an easy thing to track. I liked the easiness of it But when I was editing it, L I just was like, oh my God, these two shots of me and Kristin Johnston sitting there like I was like, it's me Divided in two. It's like you have Maddie who is like the gooey center of me, the like the aching, longing, yearning, sincere child. And then you have Kristen, who is the kind of I don't know the this counteracting force that's like always trying to kind of burst the bubble and laugh and be naughty and try to like expose I don't know, like hollow piety or, you know, like harsh truths. Yeah. Yeah ye. and and to have a good time, you know? And like and I was like, I was like, it's me. It's just me. it's the two sides of me. And then why that was interesting to me was 'cause I was like, and that's the movie itself. It's like the movie is always putting those two things next to each other and making them Try to get along. It's like YouTube behave You know, like you like you're gonna to figure it out. Like you guys, you have to like negotiate and figure something out. And that's what I think the movie really is at the end of the day. It's like it's a negotiation between these two sides of myself. and There are certain scenes where one side of me wins over the other. certain moments, it changes from moment to moment from scene to scene, I think then I actually I think took The What was like really beautiful to me about this is I do think And this is not for me to decide. Okay, but I do think that u There' moments where they're really synthesized and where it doesn't matter who's winning, you know. Um, which side of me is way like yeah, no, it's really Interesting I was thinking about how you're saying you're trying to write something Before this there was more personal or more darkic U And then where you brought yourself to, and I don't know if you're familiar with the rapp's first album Cundrum You know, the sort of like you've been waiting twenty five years to tell your story. you put it all on your first album and then you get to the rapper second album and you're like, this person has nothing left to say. And so like is there any part of you when you're making something where you're like, maybe don't put all of it in. Yeah. Like what can I becausecause it seems like maybe you ended up putting a lot of it in. Yes, because I was trying not to put all of it in. Like I was like, Oh, I was like, oh, I'm just doing fun Like, let's just do be fun and then and then yeah, I don't know. it feels it to me it like, but this is what making anything. byy the end of it, you're like, it contains the universe. Everything's in this. Is this u I asked Olivia this yesterday too. Is this your job now Like is film director the thing that because you know, I feel like From afar, it seemed like you were doing great as an actor, as a comedian, likeike really? Yeah. I career. don't that camera doesn't want you. That camera doesn't want you. Stay in the two shot. This is a conversation. Please stay in the two shot John. I know you need your close up. Heather, please yes Yes, it's certainly not going to pay me anything. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to ask you about that too. Yeah. Well, you never know. I mean, that's a tricky thing with this, right? Like regardless of how this film does, you you just people stumble into Comercial success, following your passions all the timees. can' can't count against that, right? Yeah. Well, you know, Wallace Seaan, someone who I've worked with, I just spent two years working on his play And he's a hero of mine for so many reasons I really I realized with this I mean, I realized having put some of my own money in this movie, you know, and then working on an off Broadway playay for two years. I was like Oh, I under I'm now understanding the young Sheldon thing. Like I'm understanding like the way he's built his life. He He has done these he we did seven seasons of Young Sheldon and take gigs sometimes and Murphy Brown and the Cosby showh like he did he did a million things like that And it has allowed him to fund his avant garde theater that's often been totally maligned and ignored and misunderstood. Um You know, And so I but To me this is to answer your question, which I've somehow managed to avoid for three to four minutes now I might say thirty five minutes I yes. Like this is this is really what I like to do and I really Like you know, The beautiful thing is you end up You not only give yourself something to do for two or three years, you give your friends something to do for two or three years, you know? And like my friends were like, it's not that this wasn't without its conflicts and its struggles But like My friends seemed so happy that we all had a little job for a little while. You know, we got to work together and like that was so nice. But I really did feel working around this movie. I was like, this is a dignified life. I would like to keep doing this. I would really like to keep doing this Um And I've always wanted to Do you think you'll circle back to the thing you're working on before Yes, I am, I'm already doing it. because I really did, I really feel capable. I've proved something to myself working on this on that a secret. And I've and you know, Maddie's secret was an ex I mean, it's in the title, Maddie's seecret. Like it's an exercise in like bluntness, you know. And I I worked through that and I want to keep going. I would love to make like eight Maddie movies. Seriously, I would love for her to be like a real Yeah It's my dream honestly. But I also I got jumping out of my system a little bit. Yeah. The Maddison. Yeah. But onene joke on set because we were honestly having so much fun. I think this was Claudia Dherty's joke. She was like, you should do Emily's secret, Like you should just spend the rest of your life taking each character in the movie And like Dina's secret, Beverly's secret and just do their secret. I gotta tell you, I love Claudia. And I feel like I have not seen her enough. L I fell in love with her in love. and I think she' the funniest person in the universe. And letting her be like a bitch was just such a great idea. She's so wonderful in the world. She's a very like Claudia is People are very intimidated by Claudy actually like, you know, she's played a lot of like bright chirpy girls. and and She's She's just like, she's the funniest. she's the coolest. She's the funniest. and I was I was excited to let her tap into The more withering you know, part of her. You did get. Okaykay. so you're making another movie What less bl. less blunt. I hope. But so do you like will you also be like taking a young Sheldon? Like that is that the plan? There's no offer. okay. I mean, I mean, it literally has to come along. The other thing that I have, which is really nice is, um I was gonna come up with the joke and I couldn't think anything. But I actually do have I was gonna come up with the joke. Yeah. We acknowledge your effort Thank you. Yeah. Um I u no, I I have touring. I mean, I literally have stand up. Like touring is also I love doing it actually. It's like totally depleting, but I really, really love performing Lve. And I have that to make money. I hope this isn't an invasive question, but is that something that you're cool doing as you get older. becausecauseuse like I certainly find Traveling for work now much different than ten years ago.. No, no. And I don't do I this is like the Madtyie in me. I have this like then this is very much the movie. like I have this The movie both on a like story level, but also on a formal level. It's like overstuffed. it's like it's doing so much. It's exhausting itself. Yeah. Maddie's exhausting herself. She's doing the dance class and similarly, it's like in order to achieve dance class we had to learn choreography on our final weekend when we were all exhausted. It's like, you know, I have a habit And like and my live shows are like, they're two hour, they're not an hour. Two hours long. I'm doing song covers, you know, we're doing, I'm doing a I have a character where I have to change comments there's like, you know, whatever. It's like I I like to like sweat on stage and and and so I u passing year, I just get more and more like, whoa, I can't do this anymore. Like I'm like, I feel my age in a crazy way. Okay We end every conversation here by asking filmmakers, what's the last great thing they've seen. You are a filmmaker I needed to hear that. What's the last great thing I've seen Don't say the wrong thing. I know. ' I know They'll come for me. U I'm try because you know it's such a clear feeling when you're like, oh, I love this. I love this And I know I had it recently. You feel like you're still a massive consumer of movies U I've slowed down on consuming really anything. I haven't watched TV in so long I' like Maddie. but I haven't I also was like so inundated and Wing movies to get ready for this movie that I like feel like I can't really watch anything anymore. I hear this all the time from directors too. there's a little like you hit a wall. I think When you make a movie you hit the wall. Yeah. and I'm like for this next thing I'm writing, I would like for the wall to break down again and is there something that is an inspiration point for the new thing you would share Um You can be a real Cheshire cat about this if you want Dan'toen here Fine, right. I okay Let me think, let me think. what can I say? I mean Let's just say, Okaykay, I'll be this is really I'll tell you off The mike My hint was is this There's an Amazon documentary or like there's a document on Amazon, not about Amazon on Amazon It has been very helpful Wow. and that's all you'll give Honestly, that's great. That's a first. someone who won't name a thing but will reference something name but you will come back something by Amazon on the next in sixty two years. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'll be, you know fully paralyzed from various back surgeries. Okay What have I seen that I love, let's do what you just did. I like that. you can claim ownership of the first time ever referencing but uning. Yeah, that was special. John Ely, thank you for being here. Congratulations onre. Thank you. I really appreciate it Thanks to John Ely. thanks to Chris, Joanna, Charles, Mallory, Van, Adam, Yasie, and Rob. Thankks to our producer Jack Sandrers for his work on today's episode. and his selection. thanks to Lucas Kavanaugh for his production support Later this week, Amanda, the movie auction returns. Yes. You're excited? You ready? You prep? Yeah, I mean, we've just spent an entire episode hearing people complain about how they didn't get what they wanted in the first half. So you know Maybe maybe I can channel that energy forward. Let's make it a whole theme week. Yeah. We'll see you then