Filmmaker Recommendations and Closing Thoughts

Toronto movie lovers, we are coming for you. This summer for the first time ever, the big picture is going to Canada. The kind folks at TF invited us to participate in this summer's TIiff lightightbox series, Christopher Nolan Poland grand designs. We can't wait to join their slate of programming. On july eighth, you can join us for a live recording of a very special draft episode with some friends of the Pod Canadian and not Canadian. And then we'll run it back on july ninth with a screening and discussion of one of our Nolan favorites tenant Now pay attention There will be special limited pres sales for big picture listeners and TIF members for both of these events The pre I'm still pointing. The pre sale for the july eighth live show will be on june third at noon Eastern And the link will be available at the ringer d. com slash events If Tickets remain after that, there will be a general on sale on june fifth at noon Eastern. Then the preale for the july ninth tenant screening will go live on june eleventh at noon Eastern and the link will also be at the ringer d. com slash events. If tickets remain, there will be a general on sale on june twelfth at noon Eastern. Further ticketing information will be available at the ringer d. com slash events soon and more programming details are at tiff d. net slash Nolan See you in Canada I'manda D. This is the B big Picture Conversation Sh about Mando. and the end of Star Wars as we know it Van Lathan will join us today to break down the Mandalorian and Grogu. Later in this episode, I'll be joined by Daniel Rar, the writer director of the incredibly tight and entertaining new thriller Tuner, about a piano tuner who finds himself entrenched in a criminal underworld Had a chance to see this movie back at tellell youide. I've been eager for the rest of you to see it ever since If you know Daniel's name it's because he's an Academy awward winning documentarian, best known for Nvalni and this year's AI Doc. I had fun talking with Daniel about pivoting the scripted features from Docs, how he pulled Tuner offff and where he's going from here, see his movie, stick around for that conversation. But before we dig into the Mandalorian and Grogu We need to circle back to the Cannees Film Festival and everything that happened since we left that darned country Right after this. This episode is brought you by the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. The Autogra Journey credit card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book, your favorite hotel site, your go to airline, and more You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway, from booking your stay to that first meal when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo Learn more at Wellsfargo. com slash autograph journey terms apply Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Redful Summer all day play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic? a deep end DJ, a road dog, or a trail mixer? Just add a song to your chosen playlist and put your summer on track Red Bull Summer all D day play, Red Bull gives you wings Visit reedvull. com slash bright suummer Ahead to learn more. See youa this summer Okay, Dobins, do you wantan to talk Can first or movie news that we missed over the ten days we were done Let's do movies first. Okay, I'm following what you have here in the dock.m Doc loyal. Lucas Kavanagh put all this information in the dock. Shout to you, Lucas. Let's start with obsession. Yes. CR and I recorded an episode about horror and obsession well before we went on our vacation. R.' Let's not say vacation, but well before we went to Europe to see movies and represent this great institution the big picture on the international stage. That's true. It honestly wasn't a vacation It was a lot of work. It was a lot of work. But you know what, it was fun work. And while we were gone, America got obsession fever. They did. And this very small film, seven hundred fifty thousand dollars budget has earned sixty eight million dollars in roughly twelve days. And Curry Barker, the writer director, was on the show and talked about his experience. I never in a million years would have guessed that the movie would have become what it is becoming when he and I spoke. You haven't seen it yet. you're going to see it very soon. I think Torrow I believe. yeah. But it's the box office went It literally went up weekend over weekend. Yes, which almost never happens. virtually never happens in a non holiday period, like a non Christmas period. R And with a non IP story or non sequL This is like very rare air that the movie is in right now and it has kind of caught fire on social media. It's got a very young audience thus far. I'm very interested for your take on it because it is It is kind of a rom comp. Great. Not in any way that you would hope for it to be one. but it's ac fascinating testimony to the thing that we've been talking about about finding younger audiences what they want, why they want it, the sustainability of horror storytelling at the box office right now. We're on the verge of backrooms, this Thursday, Friday weekend. And the fervor for that is' all time out. We just had a chance to see the movie and we'll talk about it on Friday So this is Dlightful as a film fan you shared with me that Some of the internet culture that is already developing around it. like peoplee within the movie are breaking out and it seems to be a whole thing, which I'm excited about. I hope you didn't spoil anything for me. I don't think so either, but I do think that we can have an indndie Navareretti conversation the female star once you've seen the movie. Other news, David Fincher's Cliff boooth will premier in IMax before debuting on Netflix in November, which is going into the slot Greredt Gerg Nnia film previously ocupied. Right. So it gets two weeks in IMAax over Thanksgiving.. And then we'll be on streaming services december twenty third. So roughly a thousand screens. Yeah in North America Here is my question for you Why does no one else want the Thanksgiving date? Because as soon as the Narnia movie vacated that, we thought, oh, okay, well, Avengers, whatever will now move up and it can dump Infinity Vision or whatever. And they're not moving off december eighteenth. It's fascinating. There's it does seem I'm excited for Cliff Booth, you know, we' We like Qwentin Tarantino, we like Did Fencher, we like Once U upon a timee in Hollywood But it does seem like they just took the screens because no one else wanted it. And I don't really understand what's going on with the Thanksgiving day. I wonder if there was a tacit agreement when they made the Narnia move for IMX to hold that space for Netflix. this was always the intention. I think I did speculate that this could happen did And it does seem very logical. I wish it was a month or six weeks and not two weeks. Sure. I don't know, Disney and Warner Brothers seem very set on having the u Having the Dune stay showdown. That's doune with three with a three TM, the big picture Dosday showdown and they're not moving. so This is the spot deecember eleventh also still wide open. There's not a single there's not no major release on december eleventh right now. What's going on? Pretty weird. It is strange, and I feel like there's something that they know that we don't. It does feel that way. I mean, this is nice. It's good that Netflix is putting the movie on bigger screens as opposed to smaller screens. We are pro that. It doesn't It's not that different from a traditional prestige release for a Netflix movie which gets a more limited, usually two to three three week run in theaters to qualify for awards and then gets its streaming date. I don't know. I'm curious if they're going to have to report box office numbers for any reason if being on IMAX informs that because they don't have to report any box office numbers in the other forms of distribution that they do, even though the companies tend to speculate like how much KPop D deemon hunters generated I just, I want this to be at a minimum the new normal that these movies that are of this scope and size that they're making are going in this way. and we talked a lot about when they were doing their Warner Brothers analysis, whether or not this would create a new opportunity for Netflix Theatrical I don't know what the downside is. Like it just feels like they're screaming into the ocean at this point. so I'm hopeful that this means we're moving in the right direction Yes, sure. Okay. I hope so too. But also maybe not. I mean, I hope a lot of things until they don't happen. I like that this is the third thing on this list, Thank you, Lucas. So I'm seeing here Paul Schrader had quote, an AI girlfriend who quote terminated our conversation calling quote, What a disappointment Um, I don't have much to add beyond that. Have you explored AI?? partnership? No, I followed the Zach Braff does not have an AI girlfriend despite what comedians said on a podcast. R And then was sent an article about how that actually works in real life when you have an AI girlfriend, but I didn't read the article. So that is kind of where my My knowledge ends. Okay to be dumped by the AI girlfriend Yeah. I don't have a lot of comments about this story. I do think it's funny to say those words out loud Its it' a great headline The Batman partart two confirms its cast and production has begun. How are you feeling? Are you ready I'm excited for everyone I'm Team Robert Pattinson.. Maybe I'll watch the first one again before it comes out. It seems like I still have a little while. Is this twenty eight, twenty nine? Will we still be podcasting? It depends if it comes before after the Beatles films. I in Batman News watched the trailer, I suppose for the new LeEgo Batman video game with my daughter. Okay yesterday and Now I'm a little worried that she wants that game. That game featured every single Batman villain And also was soundtracked by Seals Kissed fromr a Rose. my wife and I were rocking out. We were just like, rememember being thirteen? That was very fun. While we were traveling, I saw a friend and I saw two friends, one who has a son who is five. He's also my friend. And he was telling me about movies. And he said that he only likes one movie and it's the Lego Batman movie. And then he tried to watch the Lego movie, but he didn't like it because it was a Lego Batman. It was not Lego Batman. Understandable This is great news for him and I'm excited More news. Adam Sandler's Grownup three is in the works. I'm writing and directing this film. J just wanted to let you know. It's going be on Netflix. But what will my part be You're gonna be grown up number twelve. Okay, which is gonna be a breakthrough performance, Deon Waiters's Ek. Matt Damon is in talks to star in the Daniels new movie. Well sure. so everybody's in talks until they're not in talks. L we've learned this, okay. Let me know when something's signed. Yeah, I'm in talks to have a conversation with Jessica Jestin Image from Mel Gibson's The Resurrection of the Christ partart one sequel to his two thousand four film The Passion of the Christ has been released. Okay, clicking through right now. skkip add What is it a picture of? U rightight now. How's Christ doing in the m don't see the picture. Why isn't it in this post? I see an ad for food What Where can I see this photo, Lucas That's in a tremendous podcast. Oh, I'm sorry. W you'll be seeing these movies? No I had to actually An interesting thought about them because u The timing of them is kind of strange. So Part one is coming out may sixth, twenty twenty seven, which is the same day the same weekend as the leegend of Zelda whichich is like one of the most anticipated movies of all time. Yes. And then the second one is coming out the same day as Star Wars Starfighter Okay, I was like, wow. Mell is really bent on counter programs. I guess so. I guess I'll watch them, I don't know. I have no respect for myself. Next news item, Sam Rami to direct modern update of ventriiloquist dummy hrorvie Magic for Lionionsgate. Are you familiar with magic The concept The original film? No The original film from the nineteen seventyies stars Anthony Hopkins as a ventriloquist whose dummy comes to life. It is based on a novel written by William Goldman. and the screenplay is by William Goldman, pretty cool little movie. Interesting the same ram's going back to it. I not much to say about this I think that's all the news we need to at. Let's talk about K. Okay So it's news and its own There was a lot of news. Yeah The biggest news, of course, was the winner of the Palm Door M which was My favorite and I don't know if it was your favorite. I don't know if you actually did your proper rankings, but Fjord Christian Munju's film, starring Sebastian Stan and Reronata Reinzva won. was top two. It was top two. And it was top one of the films in competition eligible. Yes. And you were greatly relieved because you saw it. And there were a couple others who Yeah It was a late breaking can, huh? We had to spend the first week you know pontificating about Europeans and their existence. I didn't warn you about this Well listen, it was when I was available. Also you couldn't be there. So someone had to go and see what LSedo was up to. or not up to. I just meant when Eora premiered, I think on the Wednesday two years ago, I was like, I will not be getting aorid at my first can. Okay Well I didn'tly, neither of us did. Speaking of the film that you were nearly aored by which was mininataur, which premiered while you were still on the ground, but you were not able to attend. Other work obligations. Y. You were getting drunk, right? Is that what you werere doing That sh. That fil won the Grand Prix Yeah and I think we had talked about how it felt like that was that and all of a sudden, that was really the race amongst the three of those films. The Dreamed Adventure, which is a film that I was not able to stay for, Veleska Greesback's new film, her first film in like ten years since the West since Western, won the Jury prize. Other winners included Los Havis, which won in a tie for Best Director for their work on Labola Negra and Pavvel Pavlakkowski for his work on Fatherland want to ask about ties momentarily Best actor went to Emmanuel Machia and Valentine Campaign from coward, which you also were not able to stick around for. Yeah. Good performanceces is not my favorite movie, the new Lucas Dant film. Best actress went to Virginiaiafira and Tao Akamoto, which we may have suggested might have been a possibility for all of a sudden. I think we picked it for a Grand Prix or we thought it would be in the top three. And then you sent me some speculation after the fact that identified this as a possible best actress. Smart way to honor that movie, veryy good performances. And then Emmanuel Mer won for a man of his time, AKA Notra salute. Yes, a film I saw and did not really enjoy it at all. and was deeply French about the rise of the French bureaucracy during the occupation of during World War II. Yeah. It just any what's your what's your just quick glance on the way the they give these prizes out? Yes they were also bored in the first week. Yes, a lot of late brereaking prizes. Lubel Negra premiered very late, Coward premiered very late. The Dreamed Adventure premiered late, Ford and Minotaur were midwek. Right. Nothing really from the first week. Yeah. other than Fatherland. Yeah. But I left because I went to Paris. It's a tough life being me. And I saw a friend there who was asking about Can and was asking about the awards in particular. And she was like, so is it just a lot less bullshit than the Oscars? And is it a lot fairer and more, you know, And I said no, not at all. I like it's a very different system you know, and because it's a jury and it's closed deliberations they're going to make different types of decisions, but I explained that it usually did feel as though they were trying to spread the wealth, that you don't see a film you know gather fourteen prizes as you do at the Oscars. You know, you know, Like as like at the Oscars, you know, the filmmakers' history, like previous performances at Can, etcetera can come into consideration. Certainly like the jurors relationship to the filmmakers or the previous work can also be part of the deceiding process, at least as much as we can glean from the press conferences and from rumors. So, you know, in a lot of ways this seems pretty pretty can like It does. I think the case for Minotaur would have just been that Andre Sf Ganitsv had not won right Palm door before and that Christian Manju had won before Sure. And so while there have there had been ten previous two time winners of the palm you know, it would have been reasonable in that wealth spreading idea right to give Minotur palm it's always a little bit of a surprise. I think also Motaur I would say is very definitive in its political and social point of view. R. Whereas Fjord is a little bit of a little bit of political football. I see everybody's getting a little itchy. Yeah since it got released. I definitely been some some some some hard you know takes against it. I think it's going to be much discussed over the next six or ses. you have never worked for a Scandinavian company shows. Yeah, I think what you think Fjord is the one He says a lot about you. And and I liked it. Yeah I liked it as well. But This outcome is kind of fascinating in that they did not lean in that very clear direction. And you know, Park Jen Wooook and Demmi Moore and Paul Laverty, the screenwriter and there's a lot of different interesting figures from different experiences in the film business who are making this decision Stellenan Skararsgard, of course, who we know is close with Renalta Ryinesva from their work on sentimental value. But then with Mw that she wore his suit. sameit Yeah, you caught up with that? I'm having an amazing week with Renalta Ryin in general Um to your point like the Wh what the jury is comprised of and what their experiences are and what they like and what they bring to it versus what the experiences of the filmmakers who've been here before is notable. You know, for something like the dreamed addventure, I have no opinion. I didn't see Yeah. Jury prize is usually like a recognition of something special and unique But isn't most people think of the best director prizees I understand, as really more like third prize And so in this case, there was a tie. third prize You're not a big fan of ties as I understand it true, but in this case When you're doing it to spread the wealth, it's not it's not a democratic system or not a voting system where you could just do a runoff. And it's not a sporting competition where you could just have another overtime or whatever, like play to the death. This seems fine to me Yeah, I'm not mad. It's so. I didn't see the Bineegre. And this is the other thing I texted you is I want to be very clear We will be calling it Lubble andegra and not the Black Ball, even though it was acquired by Netflix and will beome one of their award season, you know centerpieces and has like a very fun cast. who will definitely hit award season hard. I'm looking forward to that We will stick to L Bolenegra. We will have self respect and we will use the original language. We can say it. I'm totally comfortable with that. For those of you who have not heard about La Bolenegra, it is a story of gay men in three different phases of Spanish history in the early thirties, the mid thirties, and the twenty ten s, and the ways in which their lives intersect in surprising ways through the Spanish Civil War and a number of other events. There's a lot of literary history baked into it. There's a lot of social history baked into the film. It is a big bold chest out audacious piece of filmmaking I think very flawed but very fun to watch It'll be a rich conversation, I think on the show as well. I really look forward to you seeing, because there's a lot about it that I really admired. But I got one of those text from you walked out of it, and you were like, I was kind of blown away by this. And then you know that you start thinking through it and not everything totally ws through. But your instant reaction was very much like this is a big deal. And one hundred percent is a big deal and not surprising and probably very smart for Netflix to pick it up being the worldwide distributor that it is so that people around the world can enjoy the film The thing about it is is so different from every other movie they played at the festival which was a fairly restrained series of chamber pieces.. And one of the reasons why it popped so much for me was because it was a breath of fresh air. It was a sweeping war film. Yeah. And so You know, I wrote in the newsletter that it reminded me of attonement, you know, that it had that kind of like the character drama, but then against this huge canvas of battle and history and struggle And that's a that's a timeless thing in the Oscar race. so I'm excited. It'll be interesting to talk about as we go along. Fatherland is the opposite. Fatherland is a post war film and is a very restrained, very meditative work about What's in our past and what's unspoken, And also a very beautiful movie in a lot of ways, but literally almost the emotional opposite of what Lobol and Negro is doing. So it's funny to pair them Well, I mean, it's a showy filmmaking in its own way in terms of it is incredibly beautifully photographed as like the Pabo Pavlkowvski trilogy at this point like all are. And for all its moments of restraint, it has several very memorable or, you know, funny or the ending is like very beautiful. so It is Even though we kind of were like, okay, this is a more minor work from Polakkowski It's really it's showing off in a lot of different ways, just different ways. So Let's talk about some winners and some losers from the festival wrad large.. Non, clearly the biggest winner of the festival. Their streak of seven consecutive Pomdor winners is intact. I doubted him And we can talk about that momentarily. I doubted that they were going to have the one and I thought that that instinct to spread the wealth would have extended to Minotaur. But they got it again. Yeah. Ronata Rines for the star of Fjord and now the new Queen of Cann. I mean, she really is at the center of so many films that have premiered there over the last five or six years. We just saw her this morning in backrooms and Kind of amazing the way that her Star has risen in a very short period of time as a non native English speaker and someone who's kind of bouncing between countries in terms of her productions and primarily working with Auteurs on honestly more challenging material Doing it right, I really appreciate what she's doing. Um, but, you know, she's also She's been lingering like she was in presumed innocent for wh true. I forgot about.. She's once worst person in the world, which was also a canann film happened, she kind of very quickly Itame everyone's like, oh, I'm interested, I want to know more about her. She also it just has a huge fashion following already. so it kind of seems didid you see that she recreated the famous Justine Tre S smoking holding the palm door? Seververal people were doing that over the course No, I didn't because the palm door No, because that's the only reason that I have I didn't get to do it. This can I wasn't there for the actual handing of the palm door U But yeah, she's kind of entering meme And you know, or not internet girlfriend territory is the way to do it. in addition to has She's been in that position for international for me. Cinema Very big fan of hers. so happy to see that. Her performance in Fjord also is very different, I think, from what you from the girl from the worst person in the world. Yes. It's a very different character and she transforms pretty ably. Jordan Firstman clearly one of the big winners of the festival. Absutely. H movie was acquired for seventeen million dollars, club kid I think to most of the Not even most of the North American critics, most of the critics I met. Yeah During the entire ten days a canan we're like, that's my favorite movie. People have been asking me what what was the best thing you saw? And I said Yeah And you you will hear a lot about it in the next six months and you'll enjoy it. I agree. So great for him. Yeah. And then Los Hobbies, like I mentioned, Javier Ambroger and Javier Calvo who are these incredibly beautiful and charismatic men who directed La Bolenegra, who, you know are celebrities in their own right and have worked primarily in TV, have made a couple of films as well and' judges on Spanish drag race. Yes. And I believe also international drag race. Okay. I think they at least not on all the other r drag. So forgive me if I'm wrong. But brace yourself for Yes nine months of them as well. Also interesting for those Havies who were romantically paired for many years, including, I think during at least part of making of the Bolenegra and then or they have since split up, but then they won Best director together and now They're on a rocket ship for the next nine months. Ithould be interesting. Listen, it's gonna be great content. And I'm happy for that. Everyone always says work with your ex. That's something you hear all the time. Everyone says work with your ex in front of cameras yourself because what you know And promote stories about the complicated fractious relationships between people at times of great struggle Okay, losers. Yeah. So we both lost. Yeah. Here's the way you lost You missed five of the seven main competition winners. Main competition, yes, but I did see the winner of the queer palm. You did major sex of death at Camp my asthma. so that missed one. That's one for me. I'm seeing it next week, so it's going gonna be okay. We both missed the and certain regard winner Even though I had tickets for it because it was about a family going to Tenerif. Is it L Ben? Every time. You know, that's uncertain regarda Gadiva. No. no. I think you're Uncertain regard is every time, Sandra Walner. Oh, the Sandra Wner. Yeah, yeah, yeah ye Yeah. Sand. This is the thing that you learn When you go to camp. Yeah You think it's really important to see every competition t Yeah or like I thought it was And then Through the first three days, you're like, whyy did I skip all of these films in Director' Fortnite and in an uncertain regard, those are the movies. this year at least There were more good movies in those categories than there were in competition. And I'm glad I saw the competition movies that I did, but I'm regretful about missing a bunch of stuff. Right. I mean, the reason why is because we were terrified of having that missing Eora moment. you know? L in any way where it was there and you just didn't go see it and then it wents to the palm. Yeah. you feel like an idiot, which I definitely would have Ielt like you can't imagine how happy I was when I checked my phone at dinner Saturday night and I was like, oh my God. The Fjord won made it. You can't imagine what an idiot I felt like when I saw that Fjord won because becausecause the other loser is you who on this podcast and I told you in real time. did. As you were picking Minotur, I was like, don't do this. You are F onening it And you F oneond day. I did It's I mean, it's okay. How can we correct this in the future? Like what is what do do I just say F one to you? This is this is just a true thing about me. I am so smart Yeah' so stupid. Yeah like it is it is the absolute I think it is like part of my appeal as a human that is like sometimes you'll be talking to me and I think people'll be like, wow, that guy he's really got some ideas. And then other times you'll be people are talking to me and they're like, why is this guy fucking such a m on? And there is something kind of charming about that. And this is a case where I was like in my bones before fible, I was like This is right. And then after we saw the movie, I was like This is it. This is this is out. And we had to stop in the middle of the press center so you could get the tweets off And then Yes I did. Yes, you did. Yeah. It was in kind of the trade show when you're like, come film it and like, you know. Ireland and then the last moment, you got yourself a little bit talked out by I did. know Well I bought into the narrative of the filmmaker who had not won And That was your own narrative. was You're right. I gott to believe in myself more. Yeah. I gott to be comfortable with my own strengths and my own weaknesses. I'm happy for Christian Manjreu. You know, like I think people should. I hope people will go back now and look at his movies. Obviously, most people have seen four months three days, Like that's a legendary film from two thousand seven grraduation and Beyond the Hills and RMN. these are really, really, really good movies. And he was on the show in twenty twenty two talking about RMN. so I hope that people will digging his work ahead of What would probably be like a long run of talking about Fjord. Yeah. Leia Sedou did not win bestest actress. We suggested she might. She had two different movies up. You saw both of them. I saw both of them. And you're a better woman for it Sorry. Now we have some good bits. I do believe that Gentle Monster was also acquired by Netflix. It was. Which makes sense. Hilarious. Well because he said it was trash. She is trashy and Netflix, you know, has the whole sideline of like, you know Right, right.ory killed my story. R and all these sorts of things. and it is just European that.. What boyfriend's liver with some fava beans in a nice k. it makes sense A lot It makes sense. Yeah And you know, I'm happy for Leia Se do. She put in the work of both films? Oh no, I ran over my stepdad with a snow plow. Have you ever watched any of those? No. I haven't either, but many people have. So I guess it makes sense. Okay, final candom. Yeah. James Greay Really B No prizes. Yeah. O for seven in camp C competition history. Yeah Well, I don't know It's really it's. What are we doing? First of all We were you know, we were so excited about it and then everyone was so hot and we were like, what's going on? And then no prizes. And we're also just like very confused. I don't know why we can't reach a happy middle with James Gray, which was just giving him some awards Yeah, I mean, they gave u A man in his time, the screenplay proz and I'm like, reallyally? I don't know. I know it's a French film festival, but like I will say that La Figerot, the French paper posted that they were very angry or the headline was they were very angry about the palm pick and that their personal palm pick was James Gray's paper Tiger. So at least he still has the French. I noticed that he had a very high score in the French grid pics, which is historically the case, but That festival has not been very good to him. Paper Tager, a very good movie. Look forward to talking about that. That'll probably So now all of these movies enter the atmosphere where they are all going be at the festivals overver the next few months, and then most of them will probably have October, November, December, January releases. R. And also probably forty percent of them will never come to the United States. Yeah. And the ones that we missed, we may never see. Wellill people get to see the unknown. I need them too because we got to be able to reference it, you know? I know I hope so, I hope so. Just I need that. I need the whiteboard to get out there.? Some people hated it and some people loved it. I've seen some people say like it is their favorite film at the festival and a masterpiece. I'm really right in the middle. I think it has like a lot of cool ideas and I'm glad I watched it, but there's some absurdity and dulleness to it. But I do think it would be good for culture of this show to have bits about we need that and we need we need the whiteboard released. put the whiteboard in the trailer when you' release all of a sudden, which I do also think We could have called suuden like we can say, but, you know, that's ye But I guess it's being translated several. There so many things that they are going gonna alienate normal sky watchatchers from all of a sudden, you knowue Uh, Hey, Ken, we did it Lo did. feel good. A plus. A pl A plus. I thought it was so much fun. You didn't think I was use A A pl plus. I mean, I how many things in my life A plus. Okay. and A. or A minus if you want. Okay because we didn't get to the cap. We did not get We did not get the c and I did not go on a yacht So there's always impression about the yod Yeah, but I would have liked to go swimming. You know goingoing on the yacht is like that's the first act in a takeen sequel, you know it's like I got to get Amanda back because she's with some Bulgarians who took her. some foreign island anyway. So yeah, A minus, but A minus. I thought it was a great time. And I also thought It was reallyally lovely to just be in watching in a different part of the world watching like very different movies than we normally see. Like obviously I got a little overnexed on Europeans and their problems. Yeah uh here and then and now, but When I was sitting watching Manalorian and Grogu, I was like, well You know, for two weeks, I was doing something. I had the same exact feelings I'm glad you you put it that way because there is something about being captured by a festival that can be really fun. And when things started to get good, kind of the festival there where we saw three or four films over two or three days we were like, this is okay. Finally we've come around on something here. That's a great feeling. I'm gl we did it too U All right, Well, speaking of Mandalorian and Groth, let's now bring in Van Lathan to talk about that film Boom, Van Lathan is here. hello Thank you for being here. You asked on and I love when you ask on this show because it's Mandalorian and Grogu time. Now, Amand and I have seen the film. We took our respective childrenes who are Star Wars fans to this movie Yes. I'm going to give some brief details of the movie and then we're going to dig right into it because I've got some feelings and I bet you guys do too. So it is directed by John Fabreau, who is the I guess the official creator of the television series upon which this is based. It's written by Favaveau Dave Falonei, who is the new overlord of the Star Wars Universe. and Noah Clore, It stars Pedro Pascal sort of Jeremy Allen White and Sigorney Weaver The story is as follows, the evil Empire has fallen, but imperial warlords remain scattered throughout the galaxy. hate when that happens as the fledgling new Republic works to protect everything theublican the rebellion fought for They enlist the help of legendary Mandalorian bounty hunter Dina Jarn and his young apprentice Grogu A man, I'm going to start with you. Oh yeah. What are your thoughts on the Mandalorian and Grogo? This was incredibly boring for both me and the four year old sitting next to me. So and obviously they are trying to If not grab everyone, then grab as much money as possible, and then the consequence of that was grabbing no one and not as much money as they would like. Honestly, no judgment on whether it's quote good or bad. I knew that I didn't care at all at any point And I was interested to the extent that my four year old who was vibrating with excitement when I told him we were going to see this movie and he brought his toy Grogu with him that Sean gave him. And anyt timee that Grogu was on the screen He was very excited, but the rest of the time, he was just not engaged. And I was a little worried after seeing this footed at Cimicon that he would be scared because you know, there was Gun violence as opposed to lightsaber violence And and people like punching each other as opposed to, you know, lightsabers are fun. He's never scared about lightsabers, but I and then and then I didn't even know about the monsters, but they there are monsters couldn't have cared less just absolutely went over his head. And his review was there was a lot of fighting, but not in a way that was upsetting to him or that has caused nightmares. This seemed like a big nothing to me And because Star Wars is not as essential to my childhood and it's because my child was fine with it. I'm not that upset about it, but I'm here to support anyone else who has any feelings that they want to go through positive or negative. Okay, well, what were your feelings? I told you, I haven't listened to your other podcast about this film. So we're coming in fresh Um The podcast is the Midnight Boyys by way., one of very f podcasts here at the Ringer Thank you. nice little keep you there. So look U So there's no way to look at the movie and say that it's like a coherent. piece of cinematic art You can't pract. Yeah You guys, it's boring when I talk about this stuff. I'm in the backag for Star Wars. I'm in the backag for it. Yeah. It is a part of my makeup. My creative and film watching makeup is Star Wars. It helped me form and understand story So whenever I'm in the world I am haaving a good time Whenever I'm in the world, I'm having a good time. You can't c for the movie. and act like the movie takes itself seriously The movie doesn't take itself seriously. The movie doesn't try to advance the story of Star Wars, the individual character story of Denjaron or of Grogu in any way. it gives you a slice of their adventure and it hopes that you will be happy with that That's a description of what it is. Yeah. Um did you like did you like I mean, I'll share my thoughts at length. I promise. Did you like that? Well, so when you ask me if I like it, the question is going to be For me is how could I not And so that's what I'm trying to say is like justust any Star Wars movie you would enjoy, just anything that they served to you, you would say, good. I like it. Interesting when you say they served, because I think that's the difference between me and a lot of other people. I think they did not serve. No. Well as I understand. Right. So that's the difference between me and a lot of people Like Okay You can watch boxing and I'm huge boxing fan. You can watch a bad fight a cynical fight, a stupid fight, a mismatched fighter or whatever. But if you are enough of a boxing fan then the fact that the fights are on is why you're there. R. And so like for me, that is the thing about Star Wars. So I don't want to come on you guys' very serious movie pod, Hey hey And listen. and like And bullshit the audience. The fact of the matter is, I, for the most part li the Mandalorian and Grogu, but I know that you won't Well, okay I think I've been trying to sort through my feelings This is a defensive pose that you're, not necessarily a defensive pose. It's like I've accepted something. Yeah. What I've accepted is that it for some reason, the things that I watched first The things that I watch first have this Cynical control over me. Like I go people talk about like Howard De Duck is one of the worst movies ever made Not to me. I know what you mean by not to me the things Coyote ugly thum There's a lot of reasons to love that movie.. But what I'm saying is for me, Star Wars is an experience. and so being inside of the world, they're varying degrees of disappointment that you can have. But this movie is at least from a story standpoint, it's a nothing burger, right? But it's competently made enough that I enjoyed it And the Star Wars that I've not liked is the Star Wars that actually isn't at all well made, that's not well acted, that seems a little stale or wood'en. This movie at points seems like unnecessary and unfocused But I'm never sitting there going, I'm watching a scene and not having a good time with that scene U So that's kind of the conundrum I I'm in when I'm when I'm talking about the movie because I had fun watching him fight. I had fun watching Brolic with shoulders L I have fun doing it. Ra. Yeah But but leaving the movie, you didn't really take anything with you, which is to me the mark of a good film. The mark of a good film is not the experience you even had in the theater so much. It's what you take with you when you leave it You said something interestnteresting that I leapt to when I was writing down some thoughts about the movie over the weekend. which is that this story doesn't really advance anything. It doesn't reveal any additional Mythos about Grogu or where he comes from or even Dindajarin or like who he is really as a person and how why he's a part of the the Mandalore way. It doesn't really reveal anything about that religion. It doesn't even a lot of this stuff is in the show, which I know you didn't see, but a lot of the directions that the show sort of pushed some of these characters is not really a part of the movie. And then I was stopped myself as I was thinking about these things. and I tend to go down these rabbit holes and I'm thinking about like, why was this mov valuable or not valuable? What did How did it get us closer to where we're supposed to be going with the story? And I was like, well, that's not the only thing that matters to a movie. It's not just pushing the mythology forward But it is about how connected you are to characters and what their actions reveal about their humanity or their alien mitness in this case And This movie doesn't have anything like that. It is just a series of adventures and in fact just feels like four distinct episodes of the TV show And I know many people have said that, but it is what it feels like. It feels like there are act breaks throughout the movie. And so if you just receive it in the way that you're describing, which is like I'm going to Turn my brain off to go spend time in the world too go chill in this place with these with these people and to watch this kind of level of craftsmanship then it's fine Its like perfectly okay. I didn't think it was above average. I't think was below average. I thought it was average. Use the word nothing. I agree. There's a kind of nothingness to the entire thing because it doesn't even really change anything about The Mandalorian or Grogu. Like if this movie never happened, you could just pick up the next season And we would not really have like felt a dramatic change aside from the fact that, you know, one of the characters is his life is threatened severely, but like Maybe that won't ever come up again. We don't even really know. There's only one part of it that I think is useful and was emotionally resonant in a real way which is And this is a legit gauge on how much you care about these characters and your connection to the Lore. Groo will live to be a hundred years old U his father will die His father, he will outlive his father, not like we will outlive our fathers, but he'll outlive his father by hundreds and hundreds of years. By his father, you mean D Dennis' dad, basically right? No, I mean, I saw the movie. you know. Parent parents come in many formsight? Okay. Well like we honor the careacgiver. father. So that's fine. I just wanted to make sure I knew I was t there wasn't like another Yoda somewhere. There's probably something. Yeah. How did Yoda's which is what we've named the species in my home just to keep Yoda bring you in Yeahod. How are Yodaas born I mean we don't know anything about it. don't make that face at me sorry for asking. you know, it's a fair question, but we don't know anything like whalefall face. Okaykay? just I'm just asking. There's just we only know about three of these. We don't really know the names, all of it But this is this raises a point, which is like in this movie, I'm not sure that I thought I was gonna to learn about like truly in the heart of Grou when they showed a movie. But I thought I would learn a little something else about this world in some ways. And shit, I love an adventure movie. I'm not against an adventure movie, but we don't learn anything. You don't. But what I was saying was that There's a whole portion of this movie where then is incapacitated and then Grogu gets a little soulo journey And we get to see Grogu slightly in a little way grow up. Like live in a world where his dad is not there, where he has to save Din, where he has to use his own resourcefulness, where he and that to me, obviously because Grogu is so cute and also because you know that eventually these characters are gonna say goodbye to each other. There's a final goodbye coming And that goodbye is going to be like heart wrenching and who knows like when that's going to happen. That to me was important for that character, but also for the audience That was priming the audience for a version of Grogu in the future where Dennis not Um, I mean Yes, but you have to bring all of that information to the movie. The film itself is not telling you giving you any of that, either textually and explaining, you know, where Grop came from or how Yodos are born, but also emotionally, E even in the moments where he's like taking care of, what's Din Din Din. That's what we're calling him. We can call him Mando. Okay. Yeah. well, I noticice that he is he is a Mandalorian, but they call him Mando. That seems confusing Anyway when he's like burying him effectively or creating shelter for him, there's also a joke, you know, embedded in that of like he doesn't make it quite large enough. and so it's going back and forth, which undercuts the seriousness of the situation. Yeah to Amanda's point about the taking your children to the movie and who the movie is for. there's a lot of confusing messages being sent because that segment in particular, I think really shows off puppetry and animatronics that this franchise is very cl Yeah, he's really cute. And a lot of that stuff is hand is done by hand. In fact the the sort of DS X Mck, you know, like alligator swamp lord who creates some sort of healing medication for the Mandalorian, that when he hands him paste in the little green Leaf That's that's puppetry, right? And so there's something like kind of nice and nostalgic about watching a sequence that is made by hand in this movie that is full of all of these digital effects And that stuff feels like it is evenven though it's potentially about death, like marketed to kids. It's like a sweet, cute Grogu sequence where he is getting some agency and has to figure out how to grow up And then there are whole other chunks of the movie that are full of blaster battles and explosions and really high toned action and crazy monster effects work. that is extremely violent and my daughter thought scary, and my daughter doesn't really get scared of stuff and thought it was very intense. And so I couldn't really figure out was I think back on the movie, Like it seemed like it was marketed to like five to nine year olds, but it was made for like twenty to forty five year olds, but then it also doesn'tull gratify the forty five year olds who are like, I need my Star Wars to have a certain kind of a feeling And then you look at the movie in full and you're like was this? likeike who what Who was this designed? it's not who was it made for, but it's like, what was it meant to be designed as? Be Star Wars is obviously the biggest ten possible, right? It's the biggest franchise that we've ever had and I'm a little confused about how a movie full of puppets and cute little guys but is also overflowing with guns. gangsters, monster showdowns Old school puppetry, but modern VFX shot on the volume. Martin Scorsesee voice work. Yes. Oh yeah. I was like, okay, I mean, I guess this is for me and I'm here in the theater, but I was like what I thought about trying to explain this to my date And then I was like, I don't really know how to even communicate what's going on here. This is an octogenarian Italian American filmmaker who is providing this voice. This is funny because you know he made an enemy of Van Lathhan when he talked about these films becoming theme park rides. from Marty, you know. you know what ' the most interesting thing about this question. is this is a question that Star Wars can't Answer this for kids for adults them, whatever it can't answer. But it's also a question that wasn't being asked when Star Wars was created, which is a reason why I can't answer it. See, when Star Wars was first created and the movie comes out, Leia doesn't have a bra. okay. No bras in space. No bras in space. So if you're lookingoo back on that, huge. Leia not informative, not huge, but perfect. Yeah. well yes I wasn't being descriptive much like space weaitlesss. you know moment if they're perfect,'t wasn't there a tape scenario going on? all kinds of stuff is happening, right? what you to think about it They we all know, they make the movie. The movie is not cutting edge cinema. It's actually bleeding edge cinema, right? So lot a lot of Star Wars now feels like a very safe story but at that time it was incredibly ambitious. So the story itself had to be something that you could come to. But I mean You have a guy and solo murdering somebody because he's a scoundrel, right? The first thing you see boom, kills a guy, right? R. Then you have a really scary villain with a red laser and All of this stuff is very serious, however It was more accessible to kids. It became for kids, It was more accessible to kids. Now, our expectations for that stuff is a little different. And Sarest doesn't really know how to reconcile that. So the way that they've actually done it is to make stuff that's so cynical, it can only be consumed by adults, which would be Rogue one or Andor, and then in other places to try to split the baby. Y. It's not a question that Star Wars can answer. It's also not a question that used to be asked as robustly as it is now. So to me because you have a generation of pundits such as ourselves that grew up on this stuff who are reckoning with it in real time. But also because I think that media has changed in this time to where We've had stuff was saved by the Bell for kids. It was I certainly watched that as a kid Jesse was doing dope. Okay, But that is the same to me as Star Wars, which is it is sort of behaviorally aspirational, but baked in a kind of childlike wonder. L that is the intention of a lot of media that is made for kids that are basically like nine. I' say. That seems like the ripest age for Star Wars. It's the ripest age for that sort of a TV show too. The problem is that now wonder isn't enough to make it for children becausecause it can't be too scary be too violent Like it can't be to anything. Wonder isn't enough anymore. Like in animated spaces that's an easier thing to do. What you can do in an animated space is you could have some stuff on there that's for kids, Then you can make a couple of adult jokes that the kids won't get. And if we laugh, we feel like the movie was for us.ight.ar Wars cannot do this. It has not shown the ability to do this. The Squel trilogy was not for kids. It was complicated and it was this and it was that. And so we go can't do that So they come back, they don't really know how to do this anymore. And the reason why is because we kind of are in a space right now where We don't know what is for children and what is not for children. You guys just said that you went to the movies, your kids thought that it It was perfectly okay and it was too scary for yours. I'll read Alice's review.. I Gave her a bath yesterday. we sat down, broke out the laptop, and I was like, just tell me what you thought. I want to know specifically what you thought. I've never done this exercise with her before. And she said I said, what was your favorite part? You said My favorite was when the ship crashed into the Huts tree home We should talk about HUs momentarily. Hh. And she asked then a follow up, what was it that the Hutts were trying to do whichich then had me explore the idea of them playing both sides bothoth the new Republic not the magazine, but the actual republic being formed and the empire and then She said Roda wasn't trying to be like her aunt and uncle, right? He was trying to be on the good side did like how whenever they bumped into the villain, they fought but did not talk. And I liked that Grogu was healing the Mandalorian. Now the fought but did not talk is fascinating was so interesting to me because that is what the movie accomplishes. The movie is actually not a series of human interactions. So you can compare this movie to the first movies or to the most recent sequel trilogy, but those movies, even if they did have violence in them and adult themes in them They were about human behavior character using their actions to tell us more about who those people are This movie doesn't do anything to show us who these people are. Right. It shows us that the Mandalorian is heroic and that Grogu loves him, but we knew that already. That's not new. That's incredibly different from watching Luke turn literally from boy to man over the course of a new hope. So I think it's fair to say, like this movie is very unsuccessful in that very specific way Because even though it does accomplish like a two hour adventure in the world of Star Wars, which may be more than enough for some people It's not a good movie because it doesn't really give you anythingthing that shows you like growth, development, an arc of progression in any direction dramatically. So to your point, that's the nothing. Yeah, there are no characters and no emotion at all and except for Rada. I guess, yeah, Roda is there in the traditional Jeremy Allen White role of being completely pulverized by the men who came before him and trying to break free of their expectations. whether it's in chef form or swl Java form orr form, I'm sorry. Yeahah, orru Bringsteen, which my husband watched on the plane back U and is still not a very good movie. I have been trying to think about why my son was not scared of this, but is absolutely he's had bad dreams in the past week from ratatoue and frozen which are two Animated movies where things not nearly as quote unquote scary as what we saw in Mandaloria and Grogu happens. And he keeps bringing them up and he wants to like talk about and unack what it is. I think it is because much like his mother, like emotions and sadness are the real scary part. and people being in like mortal peril, he doesn't even know what that is. or if he does, he just knows that it's going to be okay. I guess once or twice when the fighting really started during this, he turned to me and he said, G Grooo's okay. G Goo's okay And he just thought by like feeling it that it would be so, but I thought it was notable that he only cared about Grogue and that otherwise because there wasn't any ike there weren't any feelings. He doesn't really know these characters because he hasn't watched the hasn't watched the TV show There were like no emotional stakes whatsoever for him. And so and there's just nothing to grab ono here, especially if you haven't watched the TV show. Well, yeah, if you haven't watched the TV show, there's probably nothing for you All of that stuff is acquiesced to it. I. It's difficult to connect with Th sometimes because his helmet's on the whole time. So it's a character that has a helmet on the entire time. You can't see him. actuallyually some of the most emotional moments of the television show is him having to remove that helmet and then break the oath of his sect of Mandalorians and all of that stuff All of these things are built in limits that a story like this has, which is why when this movie was announced, a lot of people were like, there's just not enough meat on the bone to tell a Star Wars story about the Mandalorian and Grogu. I get all of that For me, there's no real defense of the movie as a story. There's nothing there. as a piece of Star Wars and as the existence of a contemporary ce a piece of the contemporary existence of Star Wars, I have to defend the movie because I believe in the world of Star Wars. I believe in the imagination that can go into that world. I believe in everything that the world can be and is, and I've just devoted so many hours to it in comic book, novel, and YouTube and all of that stuff. And I think that's kind of the larger question that people are asking You guys There's no way to say that the Mandalorian in Grogu is a fully formed movie. I'm actually surprised The movie being as on the nose as what it was because of Jean Fabreau's involvement. and if nothing Over the course of his filmmaking career, He's shown how to make you care about a character and then put that character in a different place than like how it was when you f. I'm a huge fan of his movies in general. I mean, he's made a few duds here and there, but I think he's not just a skilled craftsperson, but going back to swingers. Like I've always thought he has a real ability to capture human human behavior. L that's something and whether it's in a big world or in a small world I like it. this just kind of it feels like Moana two, which was intended for Disney pllus. And they kind of upscaled it a little bit and added a few more dynamic elements to make it more theatrical and to leverage a moment, maybe a weak open space in a calendar to create something a little bit more theatrical. And I groused about this when Solo came out in twenty eighteen. I was like, Star Wars movies are special, and solo is not special. and this movie is not special. And so it kind of undermines the entire premise of the Star Wars exercise. I think you could make a case that The streaming series in general kind of violated a lot of that and we could probably look back at a lot of different things over the last five years that were undermined by making them streaming TV series, but This one I think would work really well if you were just moving from season three of the show. and then you were just like, you're on a binge and you just binge the movie immediately after watching season three and then maybe you go right into season four And in that way totally viable thing if you like these characters in this world. for the big Memorial Day weekend Star Wars movie. This ain't good enough, man. That's just straight up what it is to me. It's just not good enough I mean, I agree, but I also don't have the standards of there I don't think there was anything I mean, I guess if it were really good, I wouldd be like, hey, that was really good. And I was exciting, but I'm bringing to it any sort of like fan expectations or anything other than I went to see a movie and it wasn't really a movie. And I won't think about it again And with the remove, it just also, you know, becomes increasingly clear The generous version as Van put it, which is that Star Wars the Star Wars world Is that such a disadvantage because they have to like please everyone and they also have to please every individual age group fan base all at once. and they have to be both niche and broad and that's impossible. The ungenerous version is that they've just backed themselves into a corner and there's like no way to do anything interesting anymore att the scale that they have to do it for financial reasons. So what do you What is Star Wars now then, with that in mind? you know, like this is was a seven year gap Theatrically. Yeah U we have obviously a very big movie coming one year from now, Starfighter, the Ryan Gosling. Seaan Levy movie.. I do think that This augers the end of an era of Star Wars We were in there were there have been four phases to this point. There's the original trilogy, There's the or the prequel trilogy, there's the SQquel trilogy, and then there's the streaming era This to me feels like an end cap on the streaming era. and it's underperformance at the box office relatively speaking feels like a clear signal to Disney like Ret You got a reset. Now next year probably is a reset. How are you feeling about it? So I think What this signals for Star Wars where Star Wars is right now is where a lot of these things are, which is a monocultural institution trying to wrestle with the death of contemporary monoculture and What Star Wars has to do or what anything has to do is segment itself And it's very difficult to do when you want to make a movie and you want everyone to talk about it, you want everyone to go see it This is best explained or expressed or the best example of this, sh say is the lastast Jana The Last Jedi is a Star Wars movie that did everything that serious high brrow film goers want to see. They subverted your expectations of what was going on. they went in new places, they established new laore, they did all of that stuff. And for the fans that are looking at Luke Skywalker as this father figure Jedi god who at his height would be able to overcome any problem and do whatever, they went, that's not what we want And then As a film project, you had a whole bunch of people that were saying, that's exactly what we want. That's exactly where you have to go. And then Star Wars splintered and didn't know how to do it then they made a really Dark space opera in Andor and they went, Yeah. That's what that's what we want. But then people couldn't really connect with that That wasn't for every Star Wars fan. So I think what Star Wars has to do is realize that there are pockets of their audience that will watch anything that they put out like I will watch LSU versus Western Tennessee tech on three PM on Saturday and be up for every down. suscribe to ring your tailgate.ing your tailgate because I love LSU football so much that I'm interested in seeing what the third string walk on quarterback does when he gets the opportunity to come in the game So that's you you have a low bar for me, but not everybody's going to tune in for that college football game. So if you want everybody to tune in you might have to expand the lore or do some different things. I say all it is to say that as a huge blockbuster two billion dollar entity There are questions to answer But if you're not a Star Wars fan right now if you're out on Star Wars right now then you were certainly out In nineteen ninety three or nineteen ninety four, or nineteen ninety six, where there was no stuff coming out. whereere there was nothing that you could turn on your television and see, where you had to go to your bookstore and buy books and go seek this stuff out And for me, My fear is actually going back to that. My fear is actually not having people bring new ideas, even though those ideas are poorly executed or under executed. My fear of Star Wars is not over abundance. My fear of Star Wars is the wilderness because I live through the wilderness as a Star Wars fan where Star Wars So so so so that's my deal. And so that's the dividing line that I think I am on with a lot of people. It's a very very Interesting way to frame this. and I would argue Amanda didn't care because she was not fully invested in the original trilogy, even as a young person, but I was I would assume as much as you up to a point. And then I never really got into the novels. That was something that that was like beyond what I was interested in. Certainly ye. But I vividly remember being eleven years old sitting on the floor of the Barnes and Noble in my Hometown reading the Star Wars Encyclopedia for two hours, like just obsessed with every component of the lore and Asence of new movies actually I think might have helped. I think having fewer things as I got older to pick apart grow in my estimation. And then when the prequels came along, which I actually always kind of liked and always kind of defended. You can check with Chris Ryan on this because I knew him back then I I I could see their flaws Yeah And the way that they were received, especially critically made made me feel like we were going again into a wilderness because it was like, all right, maybe we didn't need to go back to this. Now what we've had since twenty This is sixteen, twenty fifteen, Windows force awakens, fifteen. fifteen, something like that. Yeah. So in this eleven year period We have ten times the amount of Star Wars hours than we ever had for the first forty years of my life too much. We're not going to the wilderness. That's never going to happen again. It's corporately held. They're never going to stop It makes no sense for them to stop. So there's no reason to be worried about the wilderness. What we should be worried about is this is the like the watering down the degradation. I mean, this is the essential tension or conflict of fan culture, right? Wh is like, do you actually want to get what you want. is fan service actually fan service? And I think there are many people who watch it and and who get? the, you know, new movies and new iterations and the easaster eggs and everything and receive it as like that actually is why I'm going to the movies. And then I think there is a different type of people who watch movies in a very different way who I understand fan service to just kind of be spooning things out to you, to try try people in the room with us. Are the people in the room with us to try to get your money? That's always the risk, right? Is't I mean, that's the Yeah, you know, it's just I'm not inherently a cynical movie watcher. So like not at all, right? So I just it doesn't bother me. We're not going back to the wilderness, but this is the first Star Wars movie in like seven years. Yeah. right. So like as far as a big screen Star Wars experience, we are in the wilderness, right? Like we were Yeah were we weren' rightight? So this is the first one in seventven years. Look Um, I would rather Any of this stuff, any of stuff that we're talking about I would rather say, hey Do as much as it as do. I don't want to limit on it because I don't necessarily believe that scarcity,, like breeds, greatness, right What I would say for everyone and this is despite my criticisms of of the last Jedi. What I would say to everyone is Tell a story that you feel like is important Tell a story that like is meaningful to you Fan service, once there's a lightsaber on the screen I'm served Like I'm served. Interestingly no lightsabers in this film. Right. And this is kind of not that story. Once there's a lightsaber on there, I'm serviced by being there in the world. That doesn't mean that like me as a Star Wars fan is going to look at a movie and agree or necessarily think that every decision that was made was right. That also doesn't mean that I can't be glamored The Force Awakenings is a glamoring of Star Wars fans. It is a retread of so many things that we had already seen to where it took two weeks after a movie to we went, huh. Was it very much in that film that we hadn't been accustomed of seeing before? That's kind of a remake of the first one. I will say though, one thing that film accomplished that I don't think this film accomplishes to the point about our own children is that movie activates young imaginations for people coming into Star Wars for the first time. And it makes you think about the fact that The Force of Awakens wasn't just made so that you or I or you could have an exciting new Star Wars experience in our thirties. It was made create a new generation of fans And I really question whether not a movie like this can create a new generation of fans. Starfighter does seem like the kind of thing that could do that because it sounds like It's wholly original. in this world. L it sounds like it is outside the realm of the Skywalker saga and all this other stuff. but that's sort of why I question the intent of this movie a little bit is Is it just like a mile marker? Is it just like, well, we just got to get back in theaters? And so let's do the best we can because we've had so many stops and starts throughout the Cathy Kennedy, you know seven year corridor where nothing really was being made And that actually, it's hard to not see a movie cynically through that lens. I agree with you People listening to the show in the last three or four years might be surprised to hear this. But if you listen to the show before that I was very excited about a lot of the things that were happening in this kind of storytelling and It's hard to not see this to me as like This is like the death belch of like an entire era of movies and TV making, where like This is kind of like the best they could do. This is like, They ate a big meal and this is like kind of what's coming up. And it's not it just doesn't it it doesn't sit right with me. It's not a fiasco. It's not the sky is falling It's just like they just needed to put six hundred million dollars on the board this year and this was the best way they could do it. Yeah. And Fabreau was willing and they had enough pieces in place. Yeah. And it's like But you're not excited. But you're absolutely correct. Everything that you're saying is right, right? Like everythingverything that you're saying, there's no way to push back on anything that you're saying, it's all most film ready adaptation that they could put on the screen and make some money and say, Hey, Star Wars is back in movie theers. That's absolutely. Do you agree then that audiences are smart enough to to know that No I think that like I think that true film connoisseurs are smart enough to know that, right? I think audiences just will have a visceral response to whether or not they had a good time with it. and it's difficult to have a good time with something that doesn't have like a really thrilling story, right? It's like the Super Mario Brrosers movie, which is what I comparered Mandoe to. Super Mario Brrosers movie. Very similar.. Ver similar, right? They go to a place, you're like, okay, this is where the story, the movie iss gonna to get started. And then somebody makes a call and they go, Mario, we're on this plane and then they leave.. And then you're like, wait a minute, this movie doesn't care. They give you Star Fox, they give you all of this stuff. And then they go, hey, if you liked it enough when you were a kid Or if your brain isn't developed enough, you'll have a good time, a billion dollars see you next time, right? Yeah. And so that has to be looked at with a certain cynicism, just like this does I will say this though the film biopic L like the biopic movie So we've got Michael We've gotten Bruce Springsteeen. We've gotten a complete unknown. We've gotten a bunch of different versions of this in the last they they've joked about it. We've gotten Almost always with what's happening right now, these movies are bad almost always. Some of them are laughably bad And to me, when I look at them, they have almost no excuse to be bad because you could literally make a movie just about Michael Jackson during the thriller period And everything that happened and that would be a kick ass unbelievable movie. We might have even This This was my pitch, which is if you had called it thriller instead of Michael And it were. And you took this Springstein approach, but to this material. Yeah. R Yeah. But these types of films are important for two reasons Number one, they have built in audiences because people are really interested in these people. Number two, they are big showy performance pieces for the leads in these movies. So they're never going to stop making them despite the fact that they're almost always bad.. So when I see them, I go like even sometimes in the ict like the poster. I'm like, I'm signing up for a two hour ride that's about to be some bullshit I'm comparing them to Star Wars only to say It's not that I necessarily think that they should stop making that type of film. What I think that they should do is when they are taking into consideration the story and the stuff that they are doing that film with some actual artistic inspiration and ingenuity Yeah because there is a good Bruce Springstein movie in there. There is a great Bob Dyilllan movie in there. So I don't need less Star Wars. I need Star Wars to remember the face of his father. His father is George Lucas. and George Lucas was concerned with new worlds, new ideas and consistent storytelling. And that can exist in But then he sold it to Disney And then you know, and the problem with Michael, the problem with Springsteeen is that if you want the music and the like artistry that inspires everything else, there are a bunch of people who own all the rights to that and they have to You don't get to do it artistically if all of these other lawyers are involved.ich is a shame. Yeah. Yeah then well then here's the deal then, I agree with you. makeake good things. like like A plus, make good things not bad things. And once again? according to my standards of them, I am available. answer the phone. Once again, I' say it all the time I've read stories about Darth Vader trying to get his lightsaber and having to decide he's not going the emperor says, you're not going to bleed the crystal against your lights saber. You gott to go take it from a Jedi. Which means he then has to find a Jedi that's takingen the bearish vile The Bearsarss vow is when the Jedi swears off being the Jedi. So he has to get a list of every Jedi that's ever taken the bears. He has to find out where they are. He picks the wrong fucking guy because that guy, legitimately, his only job in the Jedi was to fight And then he has to go and fight up to the top of a mountain and get this. I have seen exhilarating new, interesting Star Wars characters and stories that are based on existing lore I know that it can be done. Of course. I'm going to have a good time watching Star Wars movies, but I haven't lost faith in the entire world because there's so much imagination that can be put to it If in fact These types of movies can defeat the same thing that I'm saying other genres of films have to defeat, which is all the stuff that Amanda just mentioned Snoring, gasping during sleep Feeling fatigued? askk your doctor about Zbound, Terzepetite, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apneaA and adults with obesity. 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Great brands, great prices That's why you rack Vidia and visit Scotland. invite you to come experience the beauty that awaits in Scotland This sweep of whaled co lanes Quiet locks and untamed landscapes Fresh cuisine that feels rooted in the land Tome experience the kind of stillness that stays with you long after you leave. Plan your Scottish escape today at expedia. com slash visit Scotland. I think one of the reasons why the last Jedi resonated with a certain sector of The fandom and of film goers in general is the Very famous Kylo Ren past eeline and that spoke to the Star Wars mythology, but you could also apply it to is kind of broader component of culture. And what you just described There's a part of me There's an eleven year old part of me. there really wants to see the Darth Vader wrecking shit you know, mid story movie where he's like having battles and figuring out how to be the real true dark overlord of the Empire And then there's a part of me that's like, don I already know what happened to Darth Vader, you know, like I know how he died and I know what how he saved the rebellion and I know what he means to Luke and Leia and like I saw them I saw Return of the Jedi, you know was over. That's it's not that it can't be done and it shouldn't be done. and I'm not telling people like don't tell another Darth Vader story, but it's it's never going to be as special as that very specific feeling when something big and new arrives can take over for a while Part of what I've been trying to through on the show for the last few years is like, something is dying and something new is happening. We might not always like what the new thing is. In fact, Super Mario is one of the new things.. It's something from our childhood. but in movie form, it's one of the new things. as we have gone through and credit to Amanda for sitting in that chair for like five plus years a pretty bad Fandom stuff and T years now I mean, going back to solo. But more of that stuff was Solo tolerable or interesting. I thought from twenty fifteen to twenty twenty than what we have had in the five years since. All. That's my perspective. say Rise of Skywalker was nineteen. So I think it it's twenty eighteen is when it starts yourself. Maybe it's been seven years of not great stuff. Yeah. Nevertheless It's something's changing. Like movies like this don't happen if they're not like afraid. This is like a scared move. This is a scared move. Well, no, we know it's changed What's changed is that you make a movie now, this for all films. You make a movie now and you have I was just talking to somebody about this. The amount of times I went to the movies and saw what's considered now to be a bad movie We would talk about how bad the movie was for a day, two days Let's tell about a movie called Ride that my boy Darre Dansburg went to see. and Derre Danssburg came out I was like,an, how was Rod? It's like a hop type movie from the mid to late nineties, right? And he goes, man That shit was an hour and twenty minutes long. It just didn't feel like it was an actual film. We went and saw it, Rod sucks, and then we got over it Now, every time a movie comes out in that movie is bad, first of all, we hype these movies like, I mean, not the Star Wars stuff. We hype these movies like no tomorrow, every film is going to be this deep exploration or this brand new, breathtaking new filmmaker that's gonna change everything, right We hyped this and then We rip them to shreds, which we should have conversations about movie. any prestige in any art form is to me oriented around criticism If you have a low ied art form, it can have no prestige. Prestige is oriented around criticism But now We take the qualities of these movies, the quality of these movies a little bit more personally than we used to And there is one or two places where people are allowed to direct all their vitriol and they sing very loud. And then the people who are at creating them be marketing them and financing them the shit scared out of him. The actors get fucking harassed The directors get right. I knew that they would make a movie like this because they have this political belief. Yeah. I knew that they would Aanda gets clipped on Instagram. Yeah She's hectoring some poor young actress who's doing her best, you know, trying to be a slave girl in a Star Wars film, you know, Right so there's like there is different. How do you make it? You don't. What you do is you say I have this and I The next group of Star Wars the next batch of Star Wars stuff that we that we're getting is a lot more original. It's got some characters that we recognize, but we'll see like how the story is told. You go, hey I have a take on this world Characters be damned, world aside How can I get this original take up And you let the people who are fans part of the fandom, you let them go out And then people who don't want to fuck with it, Don't watch it Like like like like do don't watch it. donon't go to it. Because I am I only for a man. I'm just like you know, preach. Like if we could get to that place, thatfortunately you have two young boys. Yeah you're. you're in for penny in for a pound. Yeah. this is it. So even S I knows who Go is now So to me There is both the ability to be critical and be honest about the fact that we are in the dirt in terms of Star Wars content that's coming in dirt. We're in the dirt. No way. We in the dirt with Star Wars, win in the dirt witharvel, win the dirt. Let me ask you something. win the dirt. Yeah, in the series, there's a couple of things that are that were kind of easaster eggy fan servacy that you were describing. you know, Luke obviously appears in the series at a certain point. Mandalorian Mandalorian Grogo are in the Mandalorian series So Katano we get the the The Dark saber but get things The Darksaber is a lightsaber. But it's dark. but it's dark. show some res.'t showome of that stuffarksaber. Some of that stuff the single When you were talking about how and you get in and you rule Amandal Lawrence. I had to stuffed on so many questions about where you get a lightsaber when you were describing the fan fiction or whatever it was about Darth Vader going to find his lightsaber. I mean, I just there's but I don't watch that you just reminded me My daughter and I built a lightsaber three weeks ago at Galaxy's Edge at Disneyland. and I will than you to do Well, it was promised and it was delivered. That's what I'll say. We've been discussing it for a long period of time. And she chose the white lightsaber because she loves Asoka Tano. Not because she's a young white girl, Van Nathan. How dare you? No, she loves dock She loves Ashsoka. And That was very special. And then I saw you tweet yesterday about being at Disneyland and ranking your favorite rides. and rise of the resesistance was at the top of your ranking.. And it was your first time going on it? No, no, That was my third time. Okay I went on it for the first time with my family three weeks ago and For the first time in a while, I was like, there's nothing like Star Wars. Star Wars is the best thing that's ever existed. like there's a part of Ros of resistance People that haven't written it before, don't think it's coming Uh, and one lady cried It's like she cried when because it's pretty cool. They put you inside of the world. There's a part that a door opens and you're like, shit. Are Are there people in costume running around You have to interact with them? Y I'll never do it. Yes. Yes. It's so c. You know I hate that so much though. when they I really am afraid of audience participation and like character interaction. Yeah. So this would be tough for me was But I'm glad you guys loved it. It was It was an interesting remind. It just it transported me. It brought me back in a way that the movies and TV shows in the last seven years just never could And it reminded me that like this does have a real power and that there's something really handmade about this world. And the idea of making a theme park ride that has that level of detail And u you know Yeah, you felt like you were on the ship in a way that no other ride has ever given me before, E though I was a Star Torus freak when I was five years old. lovely Star T too. which is and it's great now too. They've updated everything, but nothing is like this ride. And so it's I kind of got to jog my memory sometimes too where it's like, don't just be burned out you know, podcast guy who's like, I hate everything from when I was a kid It is still special and it can be special again J just not this way. what you're right. This is what I'll say. Okay. So all of the things that you talked about in Mandalorian in the the early Mandalorian series Skywalker comes into that That is fan service without it a hundred percent what? but it's also Story Meaning Grogu is a force being. He calls out to the force for assistance. If he did that that time Who is the guy that would show up everybody and save the day and then tell Grogu about the way of the Jedi, the thousands of year old tradition that he has the opportunity to be a part of. then when he has a chance to be a part of that tradition, Grogu actually making the decision not to be a part of that tradition, both because of the shortcomings of what has happened to that order and because of his connection to his father, it is actually a real choice. Yeah. So you use Skywalker And it was so great to see Luke. As soon as the X wing I was like, oh shit C he's like,'s wrong you?'m like You know what I mean? now my story, Youron. Exactly. I know it's about to go down. So yes, that is fancer. W doubt that is fancer. And that is something to hold on to when Rgu in the Mandalorian Grogu is using the force. I'm like leaning over was it the force? It was the force. Yeah, I'm leaning over to my force being like, hey, that's the force. And that's what Luke Skywcker does. And I Star Wars idiot, Mommy,' having to explicate this to a four year old during the movie because the movie can't do the work for itself. Nbody assumes that you know about the force. They assume that an interesting and weird choice. And it doesn't even, but it doesn't drama. No But you can't. so this is what I will say about that U And I'll face off that point. by just saying, yeah, you're right the early Mandalorian stuff was new. It was a new way to tell the Star Wars story, but they also incorporated things about Star Wars that we already knew and it worked until it got cynical as a part of itself because there was peopleeople at uh at Disney respect to everybody that wanted to sell toys surrounding world more than they wanted to tell stories. That's how you lose. Yeah. You lose when you put the toy first and the story second. But I'm telling you in Star Wars, story can still win As far as Rzer resistance Rise of the resistance. has to play to people who are not massive Star Wars fans. I was Rise of resistance with two people yesterday, One of them, Kalika, who knows about Star Wars. The other one, our friend Alexis, who is not in any way initiated with Star Wars, right? When we left, she had a million questions I don't want to ruin the ride for anyone. Why did they stop us? Why did they do this? Why did this happen? She was exhilarated because the imagineers at Disneyland, they know that they cannot make a ride that is just specifically for Star Wars fans. They have to put you in the middle of the world, make you feel stakakes, make you feel overwhelmed and then make you win at the end. That is still possible for Star Wars and I believe that it will be done We just in the dirt right now, but out of that dirt telling you something's going to grow. Rise the resistance is one of the first things. Forget about Star Wars forget about Disney. This is one of the first experiences I've had where I had been hearing about it for years. and they opened it and I was like, wow, this is really fucking cool. And I would just encourage people to check it out if they find themselves at Disneyland All right, we got to wrap up. because But before we go I have to say one thing There's something that the streets are really involved in. Okay And I don't know if you guys know. All of the big pick heads like myself and shout out to the big picture Reddit. Y I know how much I fuck with y'all okay We're obsessed The latest beef. on this show What's the latest beef The race with third chair. Oh yeah. Oh sure. Yeah. You're obsessed. D you Did you raise your hand for this episode because you really want arere you no, no, no, no, no, no no. I'm the black chair not the third chair No, no, no, okay, no okay. I don't want to. I don't want to the third chair. This is a clear this is a clear These chairs don't see race. This is a clear Two horse race between Tracy. Yes and Chris.. I'm of the belief It is a one horse race because there's only one true a chair which is then compparable Chris Ryan. Okay. However, there are those who believe that with the single minded focus and dedication that he has when he's on his podcast. This is a guy who has a great fucking life by the way. Tatrace. Yeah. this guy has a great fucking life by the way. Right?. M Beautiful, talented lady has a fantastic career also as a as on the screen and on the stage Yeah. But yet he this man is a father. He has a family. He has a family. however Being third chair matters to him. Yeah Yeah. would Caution, Chris Ryan not to take him for granted in this. I would caution Chris Ryan Yeah to maybe I think he's coming. I think he's hearing some footsteps.ious I mean you saw it you saw it when he closed the computer, you know at the end of at the end of the draft. He knows And that's the beauty of Chris Ryan is that, you know, he's waiting, you know, for his moment, Tracy. was on a heater in the month of May. I appreciate the work that he did watching eighty five million Robert Duval films and' you know giving us some travel time. Yeah. But we are living in like the Tracy Afterglow right now, you know. And he's also this was like rewatchables after CR mononth too, you know, where it was like, o okay, I would just That was then and this is now. you know, let's let's talk in a few months. Well, you know, How long would Tracy have to deliver This current level of performance. I'm a CR head. CR is the third ch. Here's a real challenge. And this is this is the absolute truth in this question One The third chair will always be the friends we made along the way. That's just how I've always thought about it and we've made so many friends just doing this show. Two, if there is in fact a true race for third chair, the thing that Chris does and will continue to do that Tracy has not yet shown himself willing to do is that Chris will join us at ten fifteen AM on a Tuesday after a holiday weekend to go see back in Beverly Hills That is the work of this making this show in addition to hanging out, talking, making our little documents, having our strongly held opinions, you got to go see the new movies annoying times and places where they're being held. No and then come to the episode and record with us on a regular basis. You can't just say, I raise my hand for this episode and that's it. You got to do the work. and CR P big picture, been doing the work with me for twenty years They have an inherent advantage as long as he continues to do that That's just a fact. It's a go. Try's also shopping for third chairs on some other podcasts. I' just I'll just th that out there. Yeah. Okay. A little third chair curious. Yeah there there's a little bit of a loyalty question. Is Tracy a third chair that? I just talking about? You trying to see? Let's not sludhame anyone, but let's just set The other thing is I just don't, I don't want to discount the Van Lathens and the Joanna Robinsons and all the people the Rob Mahones the people to Robins great. It's a clear two horse race and Chris is way ahead like us big pick heads, no, Chris is way ahead, but what I liked more than anything. the last of my rabble rousing that I'll do. What I like more than anything Tracy told Chris his face.? I'm like, yo, what is he on? He told Chrisy his face, I'm coming to you. You know, it's like a movie. You know's like it's like a movie like I watched John Wick not too long ago. John Wick is all bound and all like that. and he's looking at Vigo and he's going, I'm gonna kill you. I wonder in movies like that. Like how are you gonna kill him? shouldouldn't you? You're dead, D. You're caught. Dan doesn't in Manda. D When he's tied up in front of the side. Like whenever somebody's you can't wit can't wait til I hear you die scream little side. That's what Tracy did. Tracy was like in his face Look at him, Chris has got the power and he goes, Y, I'm coming for you Da. I appreciated it. I did too. Yeah. I did too. Van Lathan Tailgate Midnight boysight higher learning learning, reatchable watchable. What else you been doing? Everywhere. I'm everywhere. I'm doing a lot of stuff. It's fun. I'm having a great time here at the Ringer. And so Thank you for being here. No problem. Okay, let's go to my conversation now with Daniel Roarr I're here with my Eastide of Los Angeles compatriot, Daniel Rar. Wlcome back. man. Nice to see you on the show. cool to be here. So you co wrote and directed a feature film. I did. Last time we spoke, that wasn't what you were doing. Right. You were doing something mysterious when we last spoke. You had directed Navalni., which then went on to become an extraordinary sensation and won you many priz. Congratulations U, But I don't know that I saw this trajectory. What's what's been happening for the last three years when we last I was in my clandesence spy days Everyone has to go through it. It's just a phase. I was in Kiev, I think. It was a couple weeks. It would have been, that would have been in January or february twenty two.. So just before the war started And I was doing my clandestine. didid you know you went because you knew that things were on the preress of? I didn't know the war was going start. I was with Bell and Cat Christo, the guy in Navalni, who was like, I got we're doing the spe exppose in Kief. And we want to make a movie about it And I was like, oh, gee, okay, great. It's like, I'm looking for something to do That's why I was in Kiev when we last connected. and I was on a film set A documentary said interviewing like whistleblowers from the Department of Defense who wanted to blow the whistle on this clandestine operation. that had gone belly up and they were they were accusing Zelensky and his government of sabotaging this mission and I was making a documentary about that. And You know, it didn't, we didn't end up making that movie. Um, But Yeah, a lot of water under the bridge since that conversation. I'm no longer doing I'm sort of like moved out of the spy genre, the nonfiction spy genre. And to your point of like, whoa, didn't see this like fun, heisty crime movie. coming down the pike. That was kind of the point. I did Navalny. That film was a sensation. but You know, when you're twenty nine, you win an Oscar. it's really cool Like not gonna to lie, it's pretty sick. I imagine. But also it's really daunting And it very much had this sense of like, oh, what do I do now And people would come up and be like, wow, you just made like the ultimate movie of your life. You should just retire. That made me anxious And so for me, it was very much like, okay, how do I cope with the feeling of like, what the fuck do I do now And the way I chose to deal with that was by, you know doing something completely different And the world knew me as a documentarian you know, my first film was about the band, Robbie Robertson in the band was a music dock that sort of takes place in the extxtended Bob Dylan cinematic universe And we saw this in the Chalamay movie last year, Bob Dylan was a folk musician. Pe loved his folk music. He did really well. accolades, he was lauded for folk music and then he was like, you know what? I think I want to playck and ro And so he plugged in and he went electric. and in my own little tiny way, Tuner. is me proving to myself that I can play electr track. I would do that too. Was that always on the menu for you? Did you know you like, did you see yourself as being a lifetime documentarian? or did you know you always wanted to make sccript? No, I like I can point to, so like anyone who knows me, is used to see me with a book like a little blue book like this. I carry my sketchbook wherever I go. It's sort of an important part of my creative process. how I how I cope and navigate life and I've been doing it since I was fourteen and I can go back to being fifteen or sixteen and passages like, Dear future, Daniel, if you're not a Hollywood director, you have failed me dis You have like really intense burden like fifteen year old me was dialed in. And so no, I always wanted to be making movies. Documentary was a tributary. The most amazing tributary. I love documentary. I love nonfiction. I will always be doing both. I'm always making documentaries. I just premiered documentarary of Sundance, and I hope to always be making fiction films differentiffere skill sets Some of the fundamentals are the same really not so much the same. You know, I had Robby who has since passed away on the show actually four once were brothers.ight. I didn't talk to you for that. I was mad that they sent him and not me in. Yeah., I was happy to talk to Roby, but I didn't know you. And I'm glad I got to have that conversation. But you know, we didn't actually, I don't know how much we spoke when we spoke about Navalni about kind of how you ended up at like twenty six years old making a movie about the band. So maybe before we I was twenty four when I got that job How did that even happen? Okay, so I was in Toronto. I dropped out of college When I was eighteen or nineteen, I started making documentaries. So the technological revolution that I kind of clung ono was that in like twenty ten, twenty eleven, twenty twelve DSLRs became a thing. So for the first time you could they put some stuff in a backpack, some equipment in a backpack, go make a movie that look like cinema with a shallow depth of field and kind of that sort of cinematic air and feeling. And before then, documentary was like, you know, like Panasonic GH two's where you're running around with like mini DV And it kind of looks but kind of like shit., you know what'm talking about it doesn't look like of more hand held. ye. And so here I was sort of coming of age when this technological shift's taking place, and it's like, oh, I can just go make movies And for me, that was very empowering. So I'd like film a barmitz in Toronto where I was from and make a couple thousand bucks And then I would go make a movie, and I'd fly somewhere in the world that was of interest to me. I did one of those on the border between Israel and the Gaza Strip. I did one in a slum in Uganda. I did one in the high high Arctic in northern Canada. And I would just tell stories and make movies and make a documentary. And I did probably four or five of those films. I'd send them to film festivals. They mostly got rejected, but I'd just keep making stuff And that was sort of my film school And so by the time I was twenty three, I had made enough of those movies in Toronto peopleople kind of was like, oh, it's that kid who keeps showing up to the documentary film festivals. And the other thing about documentaries is I could just go do it. I found that very empowering. If I was doing a fiction film, I'd need like my mom to do craft services. I'd need my friends to come act in them. I'd need like my dad to let me use his car or whatever it is. And I did that in high school, but by the time I was like nineteen or twenty, it's like, I just wantan to be out in the world making stuff. And I was very motivated by that U And so I just did enough of those shorts that they knew me a little bit in Toronto I knew that I wanted to find a film that was sort of bigger that would put me under a bigger stage of first feature film. Robbie Robertson had written his book, his memoir called Testimony came out in twenty fifteen. I read this thing and I just sort of like laapped it up. It was like so he's such a great storyteller. It's an amazing musical Odyssey. And I identified it as something that is Canadian, so I could get this thing financed in Toronto, but it' have a global like like certainly an outside of Canada a scale and scope. And so I went on a campaign to get that job. took me like six or seven or eight months to get in front of Robbie And I went to me with Robbie Robertson, my first time in Los Angeles I went to the village studio I met with Robbie And I kind of just like put up a mirror. I was like, dude, I am you. I will fucking die to make this movie. Like you can hire some like big wig documentarian. It'll be one of five projects that that person's doing. But if you like hire me, I will like literally leave it all on the ice. likeike come on, like I got to do this And he was like, you're hired That is shocking though. he agreed to that. Iirresponsible perhaps from his perspective. Like if you think about Normally who he his guys are, who his best friends the Martns So like that wasn't lost on me, but but you know, Robbie to his credit, he just saw something in me. Yeah. And when someone's like sitting across from you and it's like, look on paper I may not look like the obvious candidate to do this job. But like I am telling you, look into my eyes, I will like die to do this I won't eat until the job is done. That is compelling. And so I gave him that sort of pitch. He hired me. that job took two years to make Um, um You know, I made it in a broom closet in Toronto with a couple of my buddies which was a fun experience. And it turned out well. And it was the opening night film of Tiff and Robbie was pleased with it and Marty came to the premiere which for me was You know, he was the executive him and Ron Howard were the executive producers of that film which is wild for me And you know, that sort of set me on the path which you know CoVID hit just as that film was premiering. I think that film was in theaters, Mnolia released it. february twentieth. He was one of the very last people I spoke to before lockedd. Is that right on the show? That makes sense. Yeah. Maybe it's the second last person I spoke to. could be. So that film premiered in theaters, I think we did a week you know, like eight hundred theaters ar house theaters, and then everything shut down. And so I was like, okay, my life is over, like many of us thought, like any momentum, I had no momentum It all stopped. You know, I didn't have a career at that point. I had just done this one movie and I was looking for the next thing. And, you know, by contortions, of fluke and destiny and whatever You call it I went out in the world. I flew to Vienna Austria on a hunch. I met someone who introduced me to someone and I met and I eventually met this guy Kryro Grorosev and that Meeting that person, meeting Christo was what led me to Navalnne and the experience of making that movie, which was its own fever dream crazy Like,' still the cognit dissidents that I went and did that movie. And you know, that film was pure Hutzbah. It was just like you know, courage and bravery and I wouldn't have been able to do it now. You know, I'm a different point in my life. It was just you're twenty six you have nothing that's holding you down. And like the leader the Russian opposition is like, okay, come make a movie about me. And I'm like, o You know, again, I'll leave I'm going to leave it all in the ice here. L this is one of those things. I'm just going to give it my all. We put together an amazing team. We made that movie and that film was kind of like the rocket sauce. really propelled my life And I it's that film is the original miracle of like, it's extraordinary that that film happened. it's extraordinary that I met Navalni. It's extraordinary that he was as amazing a subject as he was that we were able to make that movie. In the rolling out of that movie, I met my wife, you know, we have a family now. so it's like everything good that's manifested was because of the original sort of fluke. getting to do that film U And, you know, to the original question of like, you follow up Navalni with a film like Tuner It was it was I was thinking about being fifteen years old, being in Toronto making movies, like running around on the subways with our cameras shooting stuff in the alleyways. gettingetting our friends to be acting in it. Like that's what I was doing in high school And I came to documentary not through journalism, like many of my colleagues, but through like Tarantino And the Coen brothers and Scorsesee and Christopher Nolan and movies you liked. movie Yeah, yeah, my cinematic heroes. And and I always had in my head. it was also Robbie. after I did Robbie's doock. Be I found Volie, Robby was like,, you got to find a script Go find a script you can sink your teeth into. That's Marty would do enough of this documentary stuff. He was bigenophile too, right? He was. Oh yeah. and we talked a lot about that and, you know One of the You know, something that I think about that's, you know, as we're here talking about, that's sad is that Robbie never got to see me do that Uh because he kind of saw that I could and he sort of had that belief in me when I didn't always have it in myself And u But he inspired me in that way And Robby's life is a testament to doing the impossible. Like this vision that you have for your life, it's like It can be ginormous. You can do It's like like the only thing that stops you from achieving something amazing is your own self perception of what it could be. And that's what Robby's life was, this kid from Toronto who who grew up and became this this Brock star Um And you know, so Robbie' saying to me like, go find yourself a script G enough of this documentary, go do fiction. go to a real a movie movie that you can sink your fangs into. He probably would have said something like that And and, you know, that would have made me think, oh, maybe I could do that. You know, Well okay, let's talk about it. because I was going to ask you all these questions like, you know, Erow Morris did this, Steve James did this. They've all they've all had their tryry Yeah at a scripted film and they worked out or they didn't work out, you know, Os of Capatia, like great all great documentarians, legendary documentarians, people who kind of like push I love this forward. Yeah But're you're describing yourself as somebody who always wanted to be making scripted films and I'm curious like what If you had to learn anything or relearn anything, having made these movies the way that you did as you prepared to make this one? Well, look, On my first day of shooting Tuner, I got on set and I said to everybody, you know, spirit of transparency or' transparency like Every single person here has more experience making movies than I do. You've all been on sets more This was like I've only been on set a couple times when I stepped on my own set But the button on that was I have more experience making this specific movie because I've been making this movie in my head and on paper and in drawings and in writing for two, two and a half years And and I really just tried to summon both the humility and the Hutzbah required to like get the job done U but it's a like I had never worked with actors before. Leo Woodall, who is wonderful in the film. he really taught me a lot about he probably Leo's probably taught me more about working with actors than anybody else and not necessarily overtly like, this is how you direct actors, but more just like in process. But yeah, it's a different skills set, but as I look to like as I understand who I am and where I come from I started out drawing comic books. Like I was twelve years old, thirteen years old, going to comic book conventions with a portfolio under my arm. talking to big artists being like, hey, you look at my drawings And I've always been a visual artist. And so the idea of making a fiction film always seemed like a very natural extension of what I've always wanted to do. The documentary my documentary career was almost like a tributary that is a reflection of my love of politics. and history and current events and geopolitics and all of these things where documentaries is an amazing lens to explore those issues. Cinema has always been my first love and making movies has always been my my number one passion. So after Navalni, won the Oscar you know, for a second, I'm like, oh my god, what do I do now This is amazing, but scary. And the answer was like, okay, doors a door might open that doesn't open for a lot of people. And so I wanted to go make a movie And I wanted to make a movie that you know, was like the films I loved watching that was propulsive and fun and engaging and like musical and romantic, like a movie movie. And that's what I that was my mission for this film. That's what I set out to do D I was trying to describe the movie to someone just outside earlier and You know, it's like, um It's like Rainman meets the shine meets heat. you know, like it's not it's a very it's tough. It's a very odd collection of different kinds of stories. L where did the conceit come from? Like obviously you get this opportunity and you got to run through it, but like did you have a drawer full of scripts and things that you knew that you wanted to do? No, not at all. It was very much like You know, I sat down I really tried to like drowp a game plan and a quarterbacket. likeike I had this dream that like, you know, maybe with the success of Navalni, I could get to a point where I could make a real movie And and so you know, it was about designing a movie that I would want to watch And I wanted to be a crime story. I had this idea of doing something auditory. like that was just so interesting for me. But the sort of linchpin was that I had just met my wife. I had just become her boyfriend And she was sort of taking me around to meet her friends. And one of her friends that I went to say have dinner with was this couple called Michelle and Peter. Caroline and Michelle are like kibbitting and hanging out and I'm chatting with Peter. And I was like, what do you do? Nice to meet you. What you? And he's like, I'm a pian tuner I'm like, hh. Tell me about that. that's interesting. And he took me into his like little garage. which is like a piano exploded and its guts are on the walls And he's like, well, piano tuning, you know I go and make sure the instruments are in good shape, and I keep them. And I'm like, no, I know, I get that. but like what is like what's your day to day like And he's like, Well, I'm in my van and I sort of bop around. and I have some clients who are the real musical people I have some clients who are just like rich people. And I you know prefer obviously like the conservatories. He just started describing his work and in no time He was talking about like, philosophy and spirituality and talking about like entropy and atrophy and the forces of the universe that want to pull these things out of tune. And the natural order is chaos and it's my job to restore order where there wants to be chaos. And I was like, this is amazing.' like And it's auditory and it's lonely and he's by himself. and some people treat him like he's the plumber and some people revere him like he's like, oh my God, thank God, you're here. And I loved all of that. And I thought it was like a really interesting job. I liked the itinerant quality of it. I liked how it kind of like defied modernity in a way, like like, you know, there's no way to kind of like, there's no like smart piano tuner, no apps. It's really just like a guy and right you know, I really appreciated that. And I followed him around. I went to work with him for a day, and sure enough you know, within ten minutes, he's we're in this like all room. What did he say when you asked him, can I follow you around? Is that a weirdo? Yeah, bas I was like, canan I come to work with you? Can I just like do a ride along? He's like, I don't think he got Peter at that point hadn't seen Nvalni. he didn't really you know, and I don't think he had a full understanding of who I was or what I was about or what I did. I just he knew I made documentaries. So He thought it was odd, but he was also like, probably not because my clients would not be into that. And I was like, well, maybe just ask because I'd love to if it's okay. And so I ended up doing a ride along with them and we went to this, you know, the guy had a ballroom in Brentwood or something with this giant Yamaha, like, you know, a really expensive big, beautiful piano and I was just sort of sitting there and taking pictures and doing some drawings and being in the space and you know, they were like doing construction next door and Pete was like a little like They're making a lot of noise. And then within fifteen minutes, like the cleaning lady or the housekeeper was like, Hey, can you take a look at the toilet downstairs when you're done And Pete was like, no, it's not I'm the piano guy. like that whole I just thought the job was so interesting. And like, okay, this is a really interesting world and moving around and montaging and itinerant and we' meeting different people and going different places And And so that was sort of the genesis in the nucleus of the piano tuner. And then I was like How can I make this a crime story? Like where is the crime part? And then I kind of had this epiphany that like, what's tactile I'm hearing? Sfe cracking And then I was like, a safe cracking a real thing? or that's just a movie thing? So then I went down that rabbit hole and I started doing all this research and safe crracking. and I called LA's like top safe crracking guy And and, you know, the the reality is, it's like kind ofwhere in the middle. The way you see it in movies is sort of fictionalized, but it definitely is a real thing that there's something to it. Oh yeah, and like and there are people who can go in there with a stethoscope and do the thing and open a door and I was like, okay, well that's all I need.. So I was just sort of off, and I sort of developed from that. and I wanted to make something that was musical, that was propulsive, that was auditory, where the sound design really helped you know, elevate the production design because I didn't know how much money and movie costs to get made. I figured someone would finance a movie costs a couple of million dollars. That's what I understood. But I wanted to make something that punch above its wayight class that you know, when you'd watch it, you'd be like, oh, that feels both refreshing and familiar at the same time That's sort of what I was going for. And, you know once Black Bear got involved The whole thing sort of came into focus, I was able to go you do this impossible dream of making this movie. Do Do you play music I a little bit I learned a little bit guitar when I was doing Robbie Robertson' movie. Okay. So I do play a little guitar U enough that if like a guitar a real guitar player was next to me for like fifteen seconds or twenty seconds, they'd be like, oh way, but that's it. That's really interesting because the movie, obviously in addition to having this incredible sound design is very musical the way it's cut. And obviously the music is a huge part. There's a lot of jazz needle drops, especially the beginning the film It's very very it feels like a movie made by a musician. Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. You know, there's this whole convention of like write what you know. I heard that a lot when I was trying to you know, come up with a screenplay idea. And and you know, what I understood is like, yeah, write what you know, but also maybe like write what you're interested in Write what you'd like to know more about and explore. And, you know, the idea of a conservatory and this woman who who you know met this guy, but they seem great for each other, but maybe it's not the right time. All of these things in a way were metaphors for things happening in my own life. I met my wife just as she was embarking on her first feature film. And so it was like, Hey, you're wonderful. Like this is really cool, but like don't get in the way of this big dream I have. And I was like, I totally get it. I'm only here to support U you know, all of these sorts of things. But yeah, I wanted it to have the authenticity and lived in this and I think that's what drives me to documentary in the first place and an overlap between fiction and documentarary is just an exploration of something fascinating. L I'm really interested in music. I'm really interested in classical music and jazz and learning more about the history of jazz through this film and literally getting you know one of the great luminaries of jazz to do a cameo in the movie was really exciting for me. And you know, while it's an unfamiliar world to me that I had to learn about the sort of themes and emotionality of the film felt very real to me. and everything else was like stuff I could learn. Tell me about hop scotching in the, um kind of sub genres and tones and making sure that that was all working. because it is like it's a romance. Yeah. and it's a crime movie And it's a movie about a person with a special gift. Yeah, I mean, that was the scariest part of the movie. It's like, you know, it sort of starts off and it's like kind of kind of a not comedy, but almost a comedy. L's kind of likeally buddy comedy in the first Yeah twenty minutes. Buddy comedy the first twenty minutes. And then like in the same movie, like the guy's head gets blown off and like, you know, carnage and death and like Th films have to be in the same movie. and the sort of miracle of that whole thing is that we were able to like get the tones and the frequencies right and thread those genres into one another. You know, I worked with Greg O'Brien my extraordinary editor who really helped us find that frequency And we we we That was the biggest the biggest challenge. But at the script stage, I sort of just understood how everything had to bleed into one another and sort of like the elements that would adhere everything. likeike the music in a film like tuner is like the adhesive. that's just brings everything together, right? And if and if you can sort of figure out those elements, figure out how you're going to shoot it, the sort of propulsiveness of it We were able to get it all working when we were cutting the film, but But those sorts of like tonal shifts U were certainly tricky and the thing going into it that I was like I hope this willll work Like if we don't figure this out, we're fucked but I think we will be okay. And notice a very interesting name in the credits of this film. Johan Seller is listed as a producer who is Paul Thomas Sanderson's longtime producer, produced many of his films and I think this is her first film that is not a PTA movie that she's produced in some time. Like o I have them mighty have fallen.. Well, so how did she get involved? What did you learn? So Jne Joanne Seller, who was the producer of the film with Ly Ly Coobe and Mike and Teddy from Black Bear, you know, she is this Its sort like epic producer who's produced like some of the greatest films ever And u you know, she was had the sort of professional I don't know, this like with PTA for twenty five years almost feels like a professional marriage of sorts her and her husband, Daniel Lupy, who's an amazing producer. as well And, you know, u I never really litigated the details, but you know, as it happens sometimes with people, you work with someone for a long time and you know you wake up one morning and you're like, maybe This isn't right anymore, or something like this. and And that's just life and that happens I came to Joanne. I was fortunate enough to meet Joanne via Rob Ramsey, who I co wrote the script with. And Rob and Joanne knew each other. theirir kids went to school together And that's how I came to meet Joanne and Joanne you know, was sort of looking for projects to do and reading scripts and she read Tuner and she really saw something in the script and she and I really hit it off and You know, her experience is kind of like You know, those movies come on. They're just like, you know, it's pretty intimidating when you look at the filmography. But I was so lucky because what Joanne and Lillah I had a first film that was kind of a smooth endeavor. Yeah And, you know, a lot of first time filmmakers, it's like you're up Shitz Creek and you don't really have the support But Joanne and Lyla, a problem never got to me before it was solved. That's sort of the mastery of an amazing producer It's like I'm focusing on the creative and if something happens, if someone falls out, if there's an issue, when it's brought to my attention, it's like, hey, this thing happened, kind of a bummer, but here's our working contingency. hereere's our plan, Here's our overcome And that was very meaningful for me and something that I really appreciated in working with the two of them. I think the movie' really accomplished, and I really like to. Thank you. And I hope you make more movies like this. I am really interested in your perspective on putting a movie like this out into the world in which It's a little bit more challenging to release effectively an independent feature. Yeah commercially, especially because you in your twenties had such an amazing experience releasing what is usually not considered very commercially viable in Dcs, but you've got attention for them. Yeah. And now like What are your expectations with putting a movie like this out in the world? You had festival preremiere. and all that seemingly went well, but like now you're going to be in the marketplace. Sure. and market don't lie. thoseose numbers don't lie. And that just is what it is. and I accept that and understand it. But at the end of the day You know, I look at some of my film heroes and and I just read that amazing Stanley Kubrick biography. Oh yeah, sure. And Stanley Kubrick was like obsessed with every morsel process, right? Like making the movie, through to promoting the movie, through to the KR, through to the trailer, through he was across all of it And you know my perspective is I really know what I love to do and I love to make movies The marketing and selling of a movie is kind of a different job U And so as I look to like the type of career I want to cultivate in myaster film heroes, I look to like Sodberg or link later, these guys who are just sort of like Movie a year to work, love to stay busy. They'll go to a million doll dollar indie movie, and then a seventy five million dollars studio movie and then a doc and just sort of flirt between the two. Like that to me is really exciting pririse of the Oscar and the attention that comes with it is that I get to work That's the prize And I understand that about myself. So My expectations, what I hope is that everyone in the world sees the movie. That's my dream for it, of course. That's why we do this. But I'm sort of clear eyed and I understand that it's a tough market and there are overcomes and everything like this But at the end of the day, I also believe like if something's good and cool and like original, like people will seek it out or find it. I do believe that too. And maybe it's not like You know, the film doesn't growross one hundred fifty million dollars globally, but maybe like, you know, some people see in theaters and then it finds a home on streaming and people see it there. Like I just I just try and be optimistic about people wanting original stuff, especially in a moment when like you know, everything is turning into computer goop. U I think that to me really matters But I really just try and be like fully committed and fully detached. likeike I want this to do well. I work my hardest to make the best possible movie, but there are so many forces that are outside of my agency So I'm kind of like, I hope it works the guys who are in charge of marketing are doing a great job And meanwhile, I'm gonna go off and make my next one because that's really what drives me what I'm so passionate about. Yeah, So you're about to go make the next one. make It'sart to do it before the movie comes out. very savvy strategy on your part. Because if it bombs, I won't get a job know. I'm not saying that. Yeah, look, I I more than anything, again, I just love to do this. for twenty years, I was just like For fifteen years, I was like, what a dream it would be to make movies. And I have of like every film I saw, and I'd save the ticket and I'd write a reiew, and I'd give it a star system. Like I had a whole thing before letterbx. was a thing. My books were letterbx for me And And so the fact that now I can have this career, is extraordinary. and I feel very, very, very lucky to be able to do this. And that's what I love to do. I'm so driven by the work And being a film director is this all encompassing job where you never have a second off. and I love that And it's just like my work in my family. So The next film is if you read the script for the next one after watching Tuner, you'd be like, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. Like that's a natural, let's say evolution. So it's this sort of like heist con man story that's almost like a to catch a thief But if you took Care Grant and Grace Kelly and swapped them withZoe Sldona and Matthew Mconaghe That's the movie. And it's sort of this like expat in Positano in the Amalfioast who has this little restaurant who moonlights as this prolific thief and he's really good at it. But on one particular job, he crosses paths with somebody else and gets him into all kinds of trouble That is sort of the premise of the movie. So sort of jazzy and propulsive, much like Tuner, but with a much bigger canvas, which takes me outside of my comfort zone. Okay. And so that's something that I'm really excited about.'s like the tone and the sort of like genre work I know that I can do. Never done a car chase before, though. You know, never done all this big location work, never worked with these big movie stars. And so all that's just exciting. And these are just, you know, motivated by being outside of my comfort zone but knowing in my heart that I got this, and that's a very empowering place to be sort of operating from. So we're shooting the film this year And it's been really, really exciting for me J just in the preliminary stages of getting it set up, we just got a green lit of scouting the film, working with McConaughe, working with Zoe and just getting the thing off the ground has been like Wonderful, wonderful opportunity. Good luck Thanks man. We end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what is the last great thing they have seen What have you seen? You must be you gott to be doing some Oscar cramming, right I'm an academy member Get out it. Yeah, I swear. I swear. No kidding. Yeah, I'm not you've won and you've not been what's going on there? The Dock branch is a little Oh they're a little. I say maybe now that you're a feature filmak as. you I don't know I'm just may well'm God, the last fascin. Isn't that funny? literally daily, I'll get an email from someone and be like, Hey, can you watch our short film? It's like we're going. And I'm like, I'm not an academy member. And they're like, Okaykay, tanks, goodbye.ike they don't, you know You should just automatically be inducted. w I thought that's how it worked. But at the end of the day, it's like, trust me, I'll take the award over the membership to their club. Maybe one day, I'll get in, but in the meantime God, what's the last great thing I watch I've been watching the classics of Italian cinema. And so Yeah, so really like just just learning the fundamentals, before I go make a film in Italy. And I rewatched Cinema Peradiso. Yeah, sure probably has the best ending of any movie ever in the history of movies And if I was ever became an actor and I had to do a crying scene, it's like, okay, cry, I would think of the ending of that movie and just it would get me like that. And then you know, more contemporary what's out now. Uh I I like everybody watch Marty Supreme And I and I I I felt It was such a complicated movie for me. re I recognized myself in Marty But that's challenging because he's kind of a sociopath. Yeah. And then a bunch of people were like, Yeahah, but you're on the other side. you got a kid now. I know. hopefully you're being a good guy. I'm after the hero'sourney. That's right. I was never a bad guy like Marty, but but you know, there's this sort of like fast talking Jewish trope that Striver. ennough people were like, oh, you he reminded us of you. and I was like, I don't know how I feel about that. But I love the propulseness. I love the cadence. I love you know, how how Josh Safy pulls you into that movie and doesn't let you go and that's something that I'm very inspired by. Those are always my favorite kind of films U So I think those are two safe bets. and then I just saw Sarah Dosa's new film Time and Water. I just saw as well. Yeah, very good. And that is a film that I had to see in a theater that was, you know, meditative and patient and thoughtful and just like a J second. ike all Sarah's films. Tell people what it's about, because it just premiered at Sunds. Yeah. So Sarah Dos's new film Time and Water is a water and T time or Time and waterater? Time and Time and Water is about this three generations of this Icelandic family who their sort of like identity as a family is almost mooored around their love and appreciation for the natural beauty of Iceland where they're from. And in this case, the glacial fields that Iceland's famous for. It's it's about how the family shifts over time and the sort of pain and challenge of these glaciers which do not shift over time. That's the whole conceit. they last thousands and thousands, thousands, thousands of years. And they're sort of living, breathing things, these giant ice sheets E except in this changing climate of ours glaciers are dying And so it's about this family coming to terms with this thing that doesn't change, but it's changing now. And how do you mourn How do you mourn the almost like the death in a family of when your family's a glacier That's your family member who's dying. It's like, how you mourn that? How you So it was like beautiful and thoughtful. and I just did a documentary that premiered Sundance And I was struck by how similar it was to Sarah's movie in so far as it's like, B thing in the world, big issue that's moored around like a personal story. And in my case, it's about AI and entering fatherhood, which is how we approach our AI documentary. And so the Andreas, I think, is the name of the protagonist in Sarah's movie And he and I kind of had a hug after both of our films premiered, I was like, how are you feeling? He's like pretty good How are you feel? I was like, didid we did it? We did it. Yeah. So those are some that was a long answer, but those are some films that I saw that have stuck with me. Great recommendations, Daniel, thanks for coming back. Thank you so much. so cool to be here